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Wyness Answers With Complete Clarity!

By Colin  Fitzpatrick :  22/08/2007 :  Comments (78) :

Last week, I asked Everton for answers to questions that I felt most people would like to hear; you cannot imagine my shock when I was contacted yesterday and informed that Everton CEO Keith Wyness no less had penned a response. I'd like to thank Mr Wyness for allocating some of his valuable time in what must be a very busy period.

Yesterday, I kept looking at the ballot form knowing that the deadline had arrived and that I had to finally cast my vote. I had a dilemma: I fully understood the Board's contention that Goodison couldn't provide the revenue required for the club to progress in the EPL, yet I believed that there were more holes in the Kirkby project than in a piece of Swiss cheese. By voting NO I would possibly prevent Everton from exploiting the only opportunity that they had, yet voting YES would mean I'd be endorsing a proposal that, even by casual inspection, left a lot to be desired. I couldn't vote against logic nor could I endorse a move that taken at face value, in my honest opinion, fails to live up to the past, present and future stature of one of footballs great clubs.

You can read Keith's responses below; I'll let you decide if it's written in plain English, and you can draw your own conclusions but to be fair I believe that it's about as clear as you're ever going to get on this matter. Apart from the Orwellian doublespeak, non-committal committals and general avoidance, two things stood out:

  1. Mr Wyness, in an attempt to undermine, publicly brought up the possibility of CPOs in relation to any possible development of the Loop site yet now states that this, in relation to Kirkby, isn't a club matter; double standards I think and I would have thought a question a CEO should know the answer to.
  2. True or not, his explanation that the LCC / Bestway proposal is (in his own words) a "red herring" clearly illustrates the lack of trust and level of meaningful communication between Everton and LCC. To think that, while LFC are obtaining almost £40M in combined grants and get everything they require from the LCC in order to achieve their vision of the future, we, when dealing with the same council (whose leader incidentally is a season ticket holding Evertonian) can't get beyond derogatory allegations, admittedly from both sides.

So after feeling like Winston Smith, I reluctantly sealed my ERS envelope and sent it off. It didn't contain my voting slip; it contained a brief note requesting that I officially be regarded as an abstention. I, like Bill Kenwright, need to sleep easy at night.

Frank Hargreaves e-mailed the following questions to Keith Wyness and made the responses available on The People's Forum. Mr Wyness' comments are in italics

I will try to reply to your questions as best I can within the bounds of what is commercially sensitive.

  1. Based on an assumed project cost of £150M, and in plain English, what specific individual and itemised monetary contributions are being made by:

    a) Tesco
    b) Knowsley Council

    The assumed project cost will be up to £100m and this will be covered by a £50m contribution from Tesco through proceeds from the project and up to £50m from the club. In that figure is a contingency.
  2. Taking into account the discount to the stated £110M construction cost of the stadium what will be, in one simple figure, the net cost of the stadium?

    That will be the net cost of the stadium ,but, we believe the value will be at least £150m. This is based on what it would cost to get it built by tender as opposed to the value we are getting due to Tescos relationship with the construction partner.
  3. In relation to the £150,000,000 project cost are there any other sources of project funding available?

    There may be some infrastructure contributions from the Regional Development Authority.
  4. Subtracting the above contributions from the total £150,000,000 cost will leave the figure that Everton will have to fund, with regard to this figure please list Everton?s itemised sources for finance?

    As I have stated on many occasions we will use the proceeds from the sale of Goodison and the naming rights revenue and then if we need to take on some long term debt.
  5. The 2006 accounts list Goodison Park as having a value of £ 13,097,550, what is the value of the land?

    The value of the land could range up to £15m or more depending on what residential scheme gets planning.
  6. What would be the direct monetary contribution to the club in the first year of a £25M stadium naming rights agreement?

    Experts have valued the naming rights in a higher range than the number you stated, but, any long term contract is normally securitized to offer an initial lump sum.
  7. Regarding the complete Kirkby construction project are there any Compulsory Purchase Orders required to secure any of the land?

    Speak to the council, this is not a club issue.
  8. Do the residents of Kirkby have the right under local government regulations to demand a referendum on the redevelopment of their town centre?

    As above.
  9. What, if any, are the regulations specifying compliance that large developments contain specific sports and leisure facilities?

    As above.
  10. Have LCC / Bestway been in touch with any updated proposals on alternative developments?

    The Bestway project is being analysed by the experts who are very clear that it is not deliverable. More information on that will be released later. It is red herring from the council.
  11. Have Everton conducted or commissioned a study on the impact of moving the club from a city to a town in relation to the club's prospective commercial activities?

    A detailed analysis of the supporter base, catchment area, transportation options and work on what facilities will be available in a totally revamped Kirkby has been done and is continually updated as the overall masterplan develops.
  12. If so, what are the findings and what strategies are to be adopted; if no, why?

    At this stage, we still have planning issues to resolve and they may impact on certain strategies. There is no doubt we can have a robust strategy to fill the stadium as often as possible and service our existing fan base well.

Reader Comments

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John Charles
1   Posted 22/08/2007 at 21:08:04

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Cheers Colin.

Personally I reckon Wyness is doing a fabulous job. Most business would be calling him a saint for finding them a new HQ with a value of 150m and paying just 50m.
Gerard Madden
2   Posted 22/08/2007 at 21:20:39

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Seems to answer the questions relevent to him pretty well. I feel much reassured about our impending move - he’s a top CEO.
Tom Hughes
3   Posted 22/08/2007 at 21:23:03

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Isn’t it Leahy and Tesco who have created this "solution" in its entirety? Wyness is the fella who hasn’t got a plan..... he said so himself. All he does is sell stuff, creates nothing!
dgf
4   Posted 22/08/2007 at 21:27:23

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And that Colin as I suspected all along proved you never understood the question you were being asked.
All you managed to achieve was cause friction and possibly created some more no voters.
Very sad, very sad indeed
Dave Thompson
5   Posted 22/08/2007 at 21:27:19

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John Charles and Gerard Madden,

What a pair of dickheads.

Look at his answer for 1. He says the project cost is up to £100M.

Look at his answer for 2. He says the stadium will cost £110M.

Chief Executive doing as fantastic job, but can’t even get his answers straight in two consecutive questions.

If you’re reassured by that you’ll get everything you deserve when you’re sitting in a half empty stadium on a cold November afternoon. At least you won’t have to wait too long for the Park & Ride bus.
Dave
6   Posted 22/08/2007 at 21:28:04

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A saint ? A top CEO ?
Bet neither one of you would buy a fucking car off him
joey
7   Posted 22/08/2007 at 21:37:04

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dgf

your a very very sad little man

Get some dignity
dgf
8   Posted 22/08/2007 at 21:48:24

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Yes Joey and you act so dignified. Don’t you?

"Just watched the BK vid on the official website . . . fuccccckkkkkeeeennn elllllll
yes voters tune in, tune in you gullible fools "

Double standards me thinks.

joey
9   Posted 22/08/2007 at 21:50:04

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dgf

You attacked an individual in turrmoil

I attacked a premeditated attempt by the spin doctors to drive home the yes vote, and hudwink the gullible, for that I make no appologies

like i say get some dignity
John Charles
10   Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:04:15

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Dave Thomson:

Wyness doesnt mention 110m the guy asking the question does.

You call me a dickhead, you’re out of line... I can only have an opinion if I agree with you then??

what does it matter, we’ve all voted... if its yes or no there can be no complaints, we all had our say. I voted yes, but if its no I’ll just let it go and support the team no matter what.
Michael Kenrick
11   Posted 22/08/2007 at 21:59:38

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What is it with everyone today? Behave... or I’ll close down the comments!
Tony Ainscough
12   Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:36:05

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Colin after all your detailed articles and becoming the darling of the no-voters you abstain from voting unbelievable
Sandy Brown
13   Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:43:36

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Could someone explain to me how Barr Construction can afford to give us £50m worth of free work - about 20 years profit for them?

Wyness said that if we put this out to tender - a process which would probably include a bid from Barr themselves - it would cost us £150m. But it will only cost us £100 because Barr will give us a special rate. That just sounds bizarre to me. Either Barr are stitching everyone else up - including their shareholders - or it’s bollocks and we’re getting exactly what we’re paying for - a £100m stadium worth £100m.

joey
14   Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:44:48

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dgf, Tony Ainscough

The man dared to ask questions . . . . . .thats all

should have joined you guys bahh bahhhh bahhhhh
P Gregory
15   Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:44:58

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See you in Kirkby lads.

Can’t wait.
Sandy Brown
16   Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:56:36

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P Gregory

That’s it in a nutshell, mate. One thing Wyness makes absolutely clear is that EFC are not interested in what Bestway have got to say, and have no intention of considering their proposals.

So if, as we all expect, the Yes vote wins - it’s over. We’re out of here.
joey
17   Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:57:04

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Good luck guys, I’m getting me boots out and having another go,
cant go to Kirkby, the stench of treachory will be too much to stomach
John Charles
18   Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:52:28

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Sandy Brown:

Its because Barr are Tesco’s exclusive contractor for all new Tesco construction.

Its like a bulk deal, they take a much smaller profit per job because of the quantity of jobs Tesco order with them...they do all new tesco stores.
Sandy Brown
19   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:06:58

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John Charles

Fuck me, that’s some profit reduction for bulk! A £150m job for £100m! From a firm that makes £2m profit per year?
Sandy Brown
20   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:08:56

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... by the way, Barr’s entire construction turnover is only £200m a year - 80% of the firm’s total turnover.
Kevin Mitchell
21   Posted 22/08/2007 at 22:26:08

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I just hope that the majority of local supporters that actually care about the clubs future will swing the vote to kick Kirkby into touch once and for all. I suspect most of the yes voters who use this site are out of towners who obviously dont think it’s much of an issue to move out of the city. Beats me how they assume we will fill 50,000 seats and 50 corperate boxes to give the manager an extra 10 million a season by moving to the countryside just because Kenwright and Wyness says so, how gullable is that. I wonder what percentage of no voters would not renew their season tickets if this nightmare actually happens. I’ve allways stood up for Kenwright in the past but to even consider Kirkby as an option tells me the marbles have well and truely rolled away. I’me angin on to me rosary beads.
Dave C
22   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:07:41

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John Charles

Please tell me you dont believe that
Sandy Brown
23   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:14:22

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And I don’t suppose any of you bright sparks could tell me what "a £50m contribution from Tesco through proceeds from the project" actually means? Obviously it means they aren’t actually giving us £50m because that would be mad, they’re a business not a charity. A large backhander? Or is it those mysterious charges that they were "waiving" for Developer’s Profit and Infrastructure?

Ah, yes. In fact the stadium is costing £50m (our £50m), the other £100m is made up of non-existent charges that Tesco will let us off, and non-existent discount that Barr will be giving us.
Alex
24   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:11:39

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See you in Kirby. i cant wait. new stadium. were on the up.
i question the ones who will refuse to go 4miles down the road and stop supporting the club. because at the end of the day refusing to buy a ticket to the new stadium basically means your not supporting this beloved club.
Yes, its going to be hard leaving Goodison and jumping over an imaginary line. i still see it as part of Liverpool.
but you have got to see the bigger picture, to move forward we need to move to that stadium!
have faith.
dgf
25   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:14:58

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To be honest Kevin the vote is worthless. The result has always been a formality. I am a yes voter I admit it, I am proud of it but some of you guys genuinely have put up a good fight. The truth is Wyness has said that 1/2 of Evertonians have to vote no for it not to go ahead. The reason why he is so confident the vote will be a yes will be because he knows not all votes will be returned.
How many votes do you reckon they will get back? I would say 25,000(around 70%)would be a good return. I know this is not the same but for the formation of a Scottish Parliament only 60% of people voted and only 71% of people in Northern Ireland voted on the Belfast agreementIr

Therefore only around 21% of votes that get returned have to vote yes for it to be a yes vote.
The vote has always been a formality. In many ways we have all been had
John Littler
26   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:35:16

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does anybody know when the results of the ballot are to be announced?
John Charles
27   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:43:50

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Sandy:

As I understand it:

50M from tesco goes to Knowsley. Knowsley then contribute 50m to our stadium. Stadium shell costs basic 50m to fit out. Interior fit out plus nifrastructure and various other things cost 50m (which we find via planned 15m from goosidon and 20m naming rights+some debt).

the remaining 50m is added value not cost, e.g.. the land is worth nothing now, but when everything is build it will be worth about 50m because it will be stood in the middle of a regenerated commercial development.

Make some sense now? I’m only saying as I understand it btw for stuff I read from an unbiased angle to your request. As Ive said before, I fully see the reasons for voting no, I just thought the other reasons outweighted the no reasons so I voted yes.

I dont think I’m blinkered, I thought it through at great length and debated both sides or the arguement.
John Charles
28   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:48:17

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dave c : I believe the net cost of the ’shell’ and barrs work would actually retail at 75m, the interior fit out is the other 25m making up the 100m total cost. So yeah, being in residential and some light commercial constuction and property myself I can fully imagine Tesco being able to negotiate with its builder to knock 25m off a 75m job. ou have to ask yuorself whats in it for Barr? Well, the make a small profit on this witout risk of over run costs (-thats tied to us) and they get more lucrative work from Tesco - Tesco’s stores are pretty basic structures and as you said, they turned over 200m last year.

I don;t see how Wyness would lie, it all makes rough sense to me.
Sandy Brown
29   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:50:37

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John Charles

Are you sure about that? It just doesn’t sound right to me - surely if Tesco give Knowsley £50m for land, then Knowsley - as a council - cannot just give that money to a commercial entity like Everton FC? Won’t the electorate have something to say about that?

Bootle very blue
30   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:51:30

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Wyness states that the Loop "is red herring from the council"
Financially that may be true - we have no idea and neither does he.
What we do know is that it is physically conveivable, based on what HOK Sport architectural and WSP engineering have to say. This, of course, contradicts the car-park designer that the board rolled out last week.
Well, that’s it.
I was born a Blue, I’ll die one.
Those of you who voted ’Yes’ for a better view and because the board scared you into believing you would be playing Marine within five years, will have condemned us to obscurity. Liverpool will grow, we may well wither and in years to come you will lie to your children and say that you voted ’No’.

Sore loser? probably. Sad, defintely.
Sandy Brown
31   Posted 22/08/2007 at 23:56:59

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John Charles

Err, sorry to doubt you again, but how could a firm making a £2m annual profit knock £25m off a £75m job? That £75m job would represent over one third of their annual turnover remember. These figures are utterly meaningless in my opinion. It reminds me of those plumbers who give you a quote and, when you shake your head, they say "okay mate I’ll knock off a hundred for cash." All they’re doing in reality is giving you the real price of the job, rather than the inflated one they were hoping to get away with.

John Charles
32   Posted 23/08/2007 at 01:12:46

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I’m not sure about Barr and Tesco’s deal to be fair..I thought Barr did Celtic Park and I know they did the admitedly smaller Ayr Centrum Arena.. possibly it is EFC trying to make the stadium look like its costing more to make it look a better deal, maybe, maybe not - I just say trust the board. If its substandard we’ll all find about it won’t we?

In terms of tesco and the electorate sandy ’giving everton 50m’. I think its legit for them to do that. Having Everton in Knowsley for say only the next 50 years would mean for Knowsley to break even Everton would bring 1m extra per year to the local ecomomy. I think there is a very good chance we will be worth that to the loca area dont you?

...which is another point.. i cant understand why LCC arent throwing 50-75m at EFC to stay with a proper guarentee. Bradley already said "what we wont do is cost LCC taxpayers 50m by giving efc free land".

well why not Warren? surely everton will more then put that abck into the local ecomomy over the next 50 years (0r 115 years as goodison is).


Anyway, Kirkby is 4 miles... its not ideal, but its the real world isn’t it.

We could go on saying ’nil satis nisi optimum i want a fooking 300m pound 60,000 seat goodison until we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, even if it would fit or the loop would work, there is no package on the table and no 300m or whatever to spend.

4 miles and a better team, I prefer to be positive about it.
Bob P
33   Posted 23/08/2007 at 01:25:48

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No names, no pack drill! But I am surprised to see some here say they won’t go to Kirkby - don’t like the smell etc etc.

A TRUE Evertonian would go watch their team wherever they play! Personally, I’d just like to see us back home (that’s emotion).

I understand there’s truck loads of feeling out there but, as has been said by others, let’s keep our dignity guys.
ToffeeBlue
34   Posted 23/08/2007 at 02:02:47

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As a lifelong Blue, I’ve held my tongue up to this point. Mainly because I live in Sydney, and I’ve felt that I couldn’t provide meaningful input into a topic I personally know little about. How could I, I’ve never set foot in Liverpool.

However, I must say that it is distressing to see how divisive this (very important) matter has become.

I merely wish to point out that our real enemy(ies) are in RED.

Further, to the No voters/ supporters I say this. Neither Kenwright nor Wyness have the real power. YOU DO!!

My feeling like yours is that we are being hoodwinked into this, without the REAL consideration for other options. Therefore, when the Kirkby move comes about, DON’T GO.

It’s the best & only way to make you point.

From our perspective, WE have many choices. You can support the Blues by watching games on the television. You can attend matches at OTHER venues when Everton play away, and as an added bonus, sent a fax of you ticket to Wyness.
If they don’t wish to give us a REAL choice, then we can show them that they can do whatever they like at THEIR expense.

Within a year, and low attendances, Wyness will be sacked (or don’t attend until he is sacked) & Kenwright may even consider selling on to a real investor (or even genuinely listen to the fans).

You may fear that it could do us damage financially. Then I say NOTHING IS FOREVER. We may go down regardless of expenditure or ground moves. So, let’s see who has the biggest set of balls...them under our financial threat, or us after short term gains. After all, the two fat autocratic pricks are spending YOUR MONEY...and it’s time to remind them.

To those who use the "financially unviable" argument for the other options. I say, anything is & can be viable, it just would mean Kenwright relinquishing some of his equity in this entity - he’s just too greedy (like all these other so called ’entrepreneurs’). That’s all fine, but don’t ask US to give you the money to spend where YOU like.

Now stop ripping at each other and see things for what they really are.
If you are happy with the Kirkby option, then good for you. If you are not, then don’t be held to ransom.
Steve Pugh
35   Posted 23/08/2007 at 06:55:08

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All this talk of not going to games worries me. If we move to Kirkby (please let there be a small chance of it not happening), not going to the games will not change anything. Once the new stadium is built that is it, not going to games will only hurt the blues. There is no way the club could move again within the next fifty years.

I will not call anyone a traitor, nor will I say that they are not proper supporters if they don’t go to matches. All I ask is that anyone considering boycotting games thinks very carefully about the results of their actions.

To the board I say please do not sign any contracts until Bestway have completed a proper proposal for the loop with plans for the stadium and a financial package to help fund it. Claiming that their proposal is a red herring because they couldn’t don in a month what Tesco’s took over a year to do is just petty. I know that people will say that they have had time to prepare over the last two years but to be fair they didn’t get approached by the council until recently. Since then Bestway have worked very hard on the clubs behalf, they need to be given a fair crack of the whip.

Finally to LCC I say pull your finger out of your collective arse, and stop being RS lovers. I want to hear a public statement that the council will match the value of everything given to Liverpool FC with the same to the cities proper football team. If they are getting £40m then the council need to give us £40m. End of story.

Dave Thompson
36   Posted 23/08/2007 at 07:14:36

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John Charles,

SO Wyness didn’t give those figures, the person asking the question did?

If I asked you a question and quoted the wrong figure, I’m pretty sure you would correct me.

The ’God’ that is Terry Leahy said the construction cost was £110M, hence the figure in the second question, but Wyness isn’t even clever enough to put that right.

"Doing a fabulous job..." - yeah, right.
Shirley Temple
37   Posted 23/08/2007 at 07:53:51

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After reading some of the responses I feel that I have made a terrible, terrible mistake.



Last week I bought a 2nd hand car off our CEO.
Toffee
38   Posted 23/08/2007 at 07:58:47

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The one thing that sickens me more than anything else... is the way that WE, the fans, who all support the SAME club, are arguing with eachother!

I dont think for one minute that the bitter divide was intended and I genuinely beleive that Bill Kenwright has the best interests of EFC at heart.

I live just off the east Lancs road, I can walk to Goodison in 15 mins on a match day and I do so every other Saturday. I love the place, I have been going the match since I was 5, I’m 24 now and it still makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end every single time I hear Z-Cars at Goodison! Yeah, its not in the best nick and yeah, we do need a new ground in order to compete but the pleace still holds 40,000 of us of which only 37,000 of us turn up regularly.

As Colin Fitz states, your not voting NO to Kirby, think of it as voting for more time to think about this massive decision and demand that we are shown the complete ins and outs of the whole package! And, if the Loop is a red herring then the council disgust me, there is no harm in ending the exclusivity agreement and persuing it a bit more!

I feel that it will come back as a "yes" to kirby. I voted NO, only because I do not beileve we are being given ALL the facts.

If we go to Kirby, I will still buy my seat every season and cheer on the club I love.

I dont think the same can be said for the vast majority of the "NO" voters and I know that a large proprtion of them will not set foot in a stadium in Kirby, simply because of the way this whole thing has been handled!

So what is the point in building the thing if 60% of us say yes and 40% of us say No, when 20% of the no voters will no longer go the match (just speculating of course). We cant even fill Goodison at the moment for fuck sake! So how we wonna fill a 55,000 seater when a shit load of our CORE support wont be able to stand sitting in the Kirby ground!

We all want what is best for the club but we are not being given everything we need in order to decide what is best!


There is no need to argue the way we are! Whats the point in that? the votes have gone back.

Lets just wait and see, there is a lot more to come in this saga!

COYB
Bluesi
39   Posted 23/08/2007 at 09:05:09

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Just as an aside,

Given that EFC are trying to build a large residential development at Bellefield and require planning permission etc for this development from LCC (and which local residents are not entirely happy with)is it wise for our CEO to be having a go at the council by syaing that their suggestions are a "red herring". It may cause a few problems with the proposed use of the training ground and I presume that we need the revenue from that development to go towards any ground redevelopment. Getting on teh wrong side of teh council may also cause issues when it comes to the redevelopment of the site a Goodison itself in the future which is critical in the funding of any new stadium, wherever it is located.

There is not enough information to make an informed choice on the vote either way in my opinion. Although I suspect that the club will say that a lot of further work can be carried out once they have teh ’mandate’ they want. I just have a horrible feeling thatthe figures being banded around are massaged to present the best possible position and that it will end up costing the club an awful lot more than they are saying.
Danny Mullally
40   Posted 23/08/2007 at 08:54:14

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Toffeeblue,

I agree with the majority of what you stated in your post, and it’s a shame you have not contributed earlier in this debate. I am a No voter, but it would eat me up not to follow Everton and it is only Wyness I have the real issue with. It baffles me when you see fellow "fans" blindly following this clown Wyness and some even being ridiculous enough to suggest that he came up with this deal. In my opinion he is just pursuing his meal (he like those) ticket for a comfortable retirement on a nice 70 footer yacht. Forget the fact that we are all seeing the worst fan division ever seen at the football club. If we don’t tread very carefully this could be the begginning of something very, very critical for Everton FC.
Terry Leahy was the brains behind this whole thing, and I do not blame him one iota for proposing this deal. It is the board who benefit from this whole deal, and although I dont like it, it’s just the way it is. It is a damn shame though that no Liverpool option has been at least proposed legally.


Archie Leitch
41   Posted 23/08/2007 at 09:25:16

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Dave Thompson -

Learn to read will you lad!

The second question says "Taking into account the discount to the stated £110M construction cost..."

Once that £110m has been discounted the project costs are expected to be around £100m, so there is no contradiction.

You need to think and try to understand before you start calling people dickheads.
Jim P
42   Posted 23/08/2007 at 10:00:37

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Look, like it or hate it, yes, no, maybe - it’s going to happen. It was obvious the minute Knowsley / Tesco made the offer and the Board looked at the savings it could make. To them it’s financial sense. To me, it’s a great offer -but in the wrong locality (nothing personal to all you Kirby dwellers). So, once you’ve swallowed this pill (bitter to many, and to me) you only have to ask yourself a couple of questions. 1. Will I continue to support this club and 2. Will I go to the new stadium (however much it grieves me). For me - the answer is a resounding YES, to both. I love Everton - simple as that - and as I have done many times over many years I’ll follow them anywhere. And that includes Kirby. For all of you - it’s a personal decision. Some will swallow their anti-Kirby pride and turn up, others won’t. To me it’s just sad that those individuals, Evertonians, won’t look to attend a home match anymore (as they understandably won’t see Kirby as the club’s home). I respect their choice but believe the bitterness will eat them up in the long run. I’m not a very bitter person, but when I am, I reserve it for all things red. COYB.
Dave Thompson
43   Posted 23/08/2007 at 10:34:52

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Archie Leitch,

I can read just find.

Do you understand the meaning of the word "net"?



The question reads: Taking into account the discount to the stated £110M construction cost of the stadium what will be, in one simple figure, the net cost of the stadium?
to which he replies: "THAT IS THE NET COST."

So he he says in the first answer that the total project cost will be £100M and in the second answer that the NET COST of the stadium will be £110M.

I’ll put you on the dickheads list with the other two and Wyness.
Rob B
44   Posted 23/08/2007 at 09:55:56

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Tesco have stated they will not be handing over £50m towards the Kirkby Irn Bru Arena, but land valued at £50m once the total development has finished. That ’value’ word again I prefer the ’cost’ word as it actually means something tangible.
Anyway for those who will miss the whole debate you might want cast your vote here
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/No-to-Everton/
Amusingly Bill Kenwright has.
Sandy Brown
45   Posted 23/08/2007 at 11:11:51

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Rob B

That sounds about right to me with regards to Tesco’s contribution. They buy the land off Kirkby for a nominal fee, and give us - at no cost - a 999 year lease on the small part of that land on which our stadium is built. They also "waive" their "developer’s fee" and they don’t ask for us to contribute to any of the huge development’s infrastructure (apart from that directly within our stadium perhaps?) which they would have to build anyway.

Obviously, all those things are a benefit to us, but it’s a long way from them, or Knowsley, actually "giving" us £50m. The "value" can be given any number you like, but the cost to Tesco/Knowsley is actually minimal.

They should definitely call it The Magic Stadium though, and get it sponsored by Paul Daniels - because we all know what "magic" really is; just an illusion.
Rob B
46   Posted 23/08/2007 at 11:43:15

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Sandy,
I suppose the only solid comparison of how Tesco have worked with a club and council is in Coventry. Tesco paid over the odds for the land (£59m)gave some back for the stadium with an agreement that no other retail oulets could be built in competition with them. Cov City Council then paid for the build of the stadium which although the total cost of the project (or was that the value) was £113m which required CCC to take out a loan of £21m paid back by the Arena Company @ £1950k pa waht Cov City actually pays is anyones guess. There’s a competition Commission report on the anti-Tesco website tescopoly that gives some idea as to how Tesco work on planning permissions. Here’s a familiar sounding quote
?Most of the time assessments are poor, misleading or inaccurate. Assumptions are subject to personal interpretation and conclusions are relatively weak?the whole issue is mired in deceit.? ? an officer from a North East authority.
Ste
47   Posted 23/08/2007 at 11:51:01

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I cant believe after all your bleeting and championing the NO cause, you didnt even cast a vote. Unbelievable. Im not going to get all vitriolic and abusive as I dont give a rats arse anymore
Ive lost the will on this one, the voting is over. The stadium looks shit, the financials are shit, the move is shit, my gut feeling tells me we’re going, and that is really really shit. RIP Everton FC.
Dave
48   Posted 23/08/2007 at 12:10:15

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I’m a NO man. Its that simple, I don’t want to move to Kirkby for probably most of the reasons being touted by the NO camp. Did I vote?? NO. The reason being that after spending many many hours reading websites, speaking to friends etc, etc I found myself being unable to actually vote NO and potentially be one of the responsible ones that holds the club back.

The reality is we dont have NOW and probably wont have in the near enough future the finance or the backers to do anything different than stay as we are or move to Kirkby.

Although I dont want to go to Kirkby I couldn’t vote against it. Will I still go when we are there?? YES and I expect 99% of existing matchgoers will.

Colin, I totally understand how you feel.
Ste
49   Posted 23/08/2007 at 13:04:13

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So we’ve spent months arguing about it and when push comes to shove some of the NO voters lack the conviction of their thoughts to carry it through.
A NO vote is a NO to Kirkby. So either you do want to go or you dont. So its either YES or NO..It really is that simple.
I cant wait to walk past the Tesco, the Next Discount, the Focus DIY, turn left past the Holidayshop and finally past the empty unit that nobody wanted to inhabit and up to the ground, that incidentally will look like one of the retail units. I truly cant wait...Roll on the next 50 years
magic juan
50   Posted 23/08/2007 at 13:11:15

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A fundamental part of this debate has been a reluctance on the part of all blues to acknowledge the word ’Liverpool’. We associate that word with the r/s and have our minds clouded by our dislike of them. Think what it means. That it is this city. Our home. Where we are from and where we belong. This bullshit about expanding or increasing supporter bases and revenue streams is nonsense to all but those interested in better pies, better seats and a car parking space. FFS we’re talking about going to watch a match, not taking your Mrs out for dinner.Those yes voters just ask yourself one simple question, if you are sat in your shiny plastic seat with a cappuccino and a baguette and the team come out to Z cars, will you still think it is the SAME EVERTON? or will something be a bit ’different’?
Kev McGrath
51   Posted 23/08/2007 at 13:13:11

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?The assumed project cost will be up to £100m and this will be covered by a £50m contribution from Tesco through proceeds from the project and up to £50m from the club. In that figure is a contingency?.

What the hell does this mean? does this mean that tesco are in fact giving us nothing more than a loan as it sounds like we will be forever in their debt and paying them back the 50million from proceeds from the project which should surely go into the clubs pocket? am i wrong?

McKinney
52   Posted 23/08/2007 at 12:32:12

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Ste

A little bit negative me thinks.

Oh woe is me, we’re all doomed, RIP etc. It’s over now, lets just accept the vote whatever it is and go back to getting behind the team!

I respect Colin’s decision to abstain as I too have swayed one way and another on this matter. The information provided for both sides has been rubbished by somebody or another, One ’expert’ opinion after another that doesn’t prove anything. I’m sure most have gone with their initial instincts anyway and I will stand by EFC whatever the outcome.

Lets hope we get back on track with another win against Blackburn!

COYB
Chris Lawlor
53   Posted 23/08/2007 at 13:20:55

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Oh for Christ sake, When will all this shite come to an end???
People have now voted, whatever happens, its now in the lap of the gods. I for one voted YES, and feel quite comfortable in my choice. We need to move forward , end of. The stadium may not be full every week , so what?! Neither is any other ground in the prem, Even Old Trafford. As far as I’m concerned, in 10 years time, all of this will have blown over, Everton will still be a force in the Division and we’ll have a great new stadium to house the great teams we are now putting together. Call it blind optimism or a reflection on our longer term history. ( The club went through the exact same scenario all those years ago when moving to Goodison with tales of doom for the club). Lets just get on with our positions as supporters and support the bloody team, now that we’ve finally got the makings of a great one!
Rob B
54   Posted 23/08/2007 at 13:14:54

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I couldn’t vote yes (I don’t have a vote) but not because I’m against Kirkby but a no vote as a request for greater transparency seems to me to be more acceptable than abstention. Give me your vote, just don’t waste it.
Oh too late !!

I’ve spent the last couple of days trawling the internet for some answers from somewhere. Coventry! Newcastle! Sunderland! even Everton?? I found less answers from our beloved club than I found anywhere else.
The Kohln Stadion website says it was designed to be like an English stadium, built for atmosphere!! The Ricoh has a hotel casino etc. not owned by the club. I live in the North East I get excited when I see St James’ on a matchday especially in the winter with lights etc. its like a great cathedral to football, good job barcodes. The Stad of Luz, I drove past it on Sunday, I tried to point it out to the missus as we drove over Monkwearmouth bridge (100yds away), you can’t see it. Every time I’ve been I’ve spent hours , HOURS, trying to get away from it. There’s nothing to do around it. You couldn’t say, go for a pint while the traffic dies down. Last time I saw the blues at St J. I went for a meal in town afterwards. I once, while queuing to get into a Chinese restaurant saw Bil K walk past on his way to Central Station to get the train back to London after the game. (1-0 Campbell)(Gazza back heel, Naismiths cross). It’s a civilized experience.
I fear all of our experiences will change and feel more like Sunderland than Newcastle.
But, I’ll still go!!
I’ve always enjoyed 90 mins of the Sunderland experience
Brian Wolf
55   Posted 23/08/2007 at 14:19:07

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Dave Thompson, please respect your fellow fans and don’t call them dickheads for having an opinion.

You can have your say, but please be respectful.
Ian Ross
56   Posted 23/08/2007 at 14:39:05

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The open letter from Prof Tom Cannon had absolutely NOTHING at all to do with our football club... it was not, as Colin Fitzpatrick suggests, put out by us as a piece of pro-stadium propoganda..... far from it... if Mr Fitzpatrick cares to look into the matter he will see that the letter has not been used on the Club website....
colin.fitz
57   Posted 23/08/2007 at 14:40:49

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Ian, I to would distance myself from that letter, thanks for the clarification.
colin.fitz
58   Posted 23/08/2007 at 14:40:49

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Ian, I to would distance myself from that letter, thanks for the clarification.
David Hall
59   Posted 23/08/2007 at 13:49:22

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All in all,Colin,your ’last gasp’ article has provoked the best debate on this issue we have seen.Whatever the result tomorrow,we are all Evertonians and,I am sure will remain so.After all,the history and soul of an institution is not tied to a particular location else none of us would move far from the place we were born!
colin.fitz
60   Posted 23/08/2007 at 14:55:13

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Well said David, I think the debate has been first class, I was having a drink the other night and the Evertonians who voted were split 50/50, but we’ll all be at the match in the future no matter where we play.
David Whitwell
61   Posted 23/08/2007 at 14:12:16

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Guys, like most of you i’m not aware of the exact facts and figures, who contributes what? how much will it cost us? how much will it be worth?
I think its much more simple than that, it doesn’t matter how much its costing the club clearly feel that the stadium can be built, therefore the money exists somewhere, why is it the only option, because we can’t afford anything else.
With regard to the value of the stadium it’s irrelevant, nobody is going to pay £150m for a sports arena in Kirkby so its value is in land redevelopment.

What is crucial however in this argument is the value of Everton FC to an investor with a brand new 50000 capacity stadium will be pheonomenal. I don’t believe there are any true sugar daddies out there, even abramovich is now bulking at paying silly money for people. Most investors want something from the club i.e payback or increase share value. A potential investor for Everton post move would not have to stump up money for a new ground, therefore there only way to increase revenue will be through Gates, Prize Money, TV Money, which will come from success on the pitch, therefore the only investment they need to make is new players.
bluebrowser
62   Posted 23/08/2007 at 16:42:18

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im not arguing - some of you lot are clearly tesco stooges
J
63   Posted 23/08/2007 at 16:29:25

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For those of you who trust the board on this, then please answer this.

Why have we gone straight from the club saying at the last shareholder meeting that they were "only in discussions" with Tesco/Kirby to a vote from the fans?

Why would they do that? Essentially ruling out any alternative solutions put forward by the council?

With 2 councils keen to host our stadium, surely you don’t stop negotiations after 1 round of bidding.
McKinney
64   Posted 23/08/2007 at 17:07:35

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J

I agree with your cynicism but I’m just not so convinced that LCC are really that "keen". It appears to me on face value that we have been messing about with this issue for some time, and it’s not until one bid is being voted on that a lot of rushed together proposals suddenly surface.

More cynisism though....The board could have engineered it that way, I guess someone like me will never know!
Brian Wolf
65   Posted 23/08/2007 at 17:24:15

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Warren Bradley is a tool, his motives are highly suspicious and the fact that he has come out and thrown his weight behind proposals that are quite franky nonsensical shows that he clearly isn’t bothered about Everton Football Club at all.

All Bradley cares about is votes, he is a votes whore. If Everton go to Kirkby he will try to claim himself as some sort of hero, "He was the man who tried to stop big bad Everton leaving the city". He’ll do a big publicity thing you mark my words.
J
66   Posted 23/08/2007 at 17:29:34

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McKinney,

We’ll probably never know for sure but I’d have thought LCC would want EFC to stay. Not at any price but there has to be a certain "value" in having the club, otherwise Kirkby wouldn’t want us.

For Everton to not allow a certain amount of time for LLC to make another bid seems highly suspicious to me.

ROBERT CARNEY
67   Posted 23/08/2007 at 17:09:10

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Well Guys, the debate is over and the No Voters I believe have generated the greatest analysis and articles probably ever presented by fans of a football club.

From Tom hughes to Colin Fitz plus many many others. Even taking time out to answer any critics, falsehoods thrown at them.

I only wish when this result is published along with our new arrivals that Wyness, having delivered the result for Tesco, fucks off never to been seen again at Goodison Park .
No doubt his huge bonus will ease the pressure of moving away.

Bill Kenwright can judge for himself what to do. He opened the can of worms.

The many things we have said, only time will tell.

I am not looking forward to what is on offer. Lets all enjoy the next three years. We will be savouring it for many years to come. Just like we do with the mid-eighties.
McKinney
68   Posted 23/08/2007 at 17:45:05

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J

Yes I know. I think their was a certain amount of complacency from LCC though after the Kings Dock. Everyone was busy criticising EFC for not being able to raise the cash, so LCC never even contemplated the club leaving the city. It’s only a theory but I feel like they just sat on their backsides and thought ah well, they can stay at GP for now. Then when a crazy idea of EFC moving to Kirkby surfaces, they suddenly stand up and start pulling proposals out of their arses.

Like you say it’s obvious that EFC in the city would be better for LCC, but why didn’t they show a bit more willing a bit earlier, as I think most of us agree, ideally we would love to stay exactly where we are and just magically produce a new 60,000 seater GP, with top facilities, for as little as possible.

There are a lot of things to be suspicious of, wish there where as many to be positive about.

At least the league position is something to smile about!
Brian Wolf
69   Posted 23/08/2007 at 18:01:09

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McKinney

"Like you say it?s obvious that EFC in the city would be better for LCC, but why didn?t they show a bit more willing a bit earlier"

I’ll tell you why they didn’t show a bit more willing, because they were too busy rubbernecking and lunching with Liverpool representatives over their NEW stadium.
Smile1
70   Posted 23/08/2007 at 17:38:20

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Barr have been able to take into account the overall £400m deal. Knocking £25m of the overall deal is only a 6.25% discount.

Secondly Barr have been able to offset this deal against a future series of constructions for Tesco. Barr win by getting future deals, EFC win by getting the discounted build, Tesco win by securing EFC at the development.
Smile1
71   Posted 23/08/2007 at 18:08:33

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LCC have had two years minimum to work something out, maybe they need five?

WB has offered nothing in the form of genuine commitment.

His current silence is damming.
Steve Myers
72   Posted 23/08/2007 at 17:57:05

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While I will be sorry for the team to leave there ancestral home and a place that I have been to many times, they have done it before and it looks like they will do it again, I am an Evertonian and God willing I will be at the first match to be played at the Tesco Bowl or whatever they name it, I prefer "New Goodison" and I hope everyone who supports Everton will be too. NSNO
Brian Wolf
73   Posted 23/08/2007 at 18:34:22

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As long as we have a statue of Dixie Dean and Alan Ball I don’t care where we play.
Sandy Brown
74   Posted 23/08/2007 at 19:19:36

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Has any club’s supporters ever gone so unwillingly to a new stadium I wonder? At least a third, possibly more - we’ll see tomorrow - don’t want to move to Kirkby.

The board have still got an enormous job over the next couple of years to sell this to the dissenters. If they hope to do that, they’ll need to review the mistakes of the past few months, the appalling communication, the apparent contempt for anyone who dares to challenge the board’s thinking, and the cheap and embarrassing coralling of currrent players as cheerleaders for the move.

Personally, I’d like see Ian Ross go and, as soon as a replacement can be found, Keith Wyness to follow him. A fresh start with more trustworthy faces is needed.

Perhaps, once Kirkby is signed and in progress, it will be the opportunity for an investor to come and remove the entire board, put some real money in, and turn Kirkby into something other than the generic championship quality box it threatens to be.

That might be the only way to get all Evertonians on board for this move.
robert carney
75   Posted 23/08/2007 at 23:37:01

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Sandy;
At the end of the day Ross is a communications employee of Kenright/Wyness with long experience in the gutter press.

He is payed to pomote the ideas, plans, buisness ecumen of his employers. The root cause is the people above.

Sky news has been broadcasting the result every twenty minutes tonight.

Wyness and Ross can feel totally vindicated. A lot of decent Evertonians will differ. I know which camp I am with.

There is a lot of bridge building to be done.When I have said in the past that we are on the verge of past glories with Moyes and his slow but consistent move forward, I dread to think what will happen if things go wrong.

I hope I am right.



Rob B
76   Posted 24/08/2007 at 09:54:39

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"Experts have valued the naming rights in a higher range than the number you stated(£25m), but, any long term contract is normally securitized to offer an initial lump sum."
That would be more mortgage then!
This 10m for players is getting smaller.
How can it possibly be more than 25m?
Arsenal got 50m over 15 yrs. The biggest ever naming rights deal in this country, by a long way.
As to names, for that sort of money you won’t get any Everton related wording getting in the way.
Reebok, Walkers, Emirates, Ricoh, have all become the names of the stadium. Any clubs that want to keep some vestige of their history included in the name get peanuts in comparison.
Anyone knows who sponsors St Mary’s? Friends Prov! So what does everyone call it. St Mary’s!
You gets what you pays for.
Archie Leitch
77   Posted 24/08/2007 at 10:13:31

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Dave Thompson -

"I can read just find."

But not type apparently. ROFLMAO!

See you in Kirkby - if you can be bothered travelling that far.
Dave Thompson
78   Posted 24/08/2007 at 12:10:03

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Archie Leitch,

That the best you can do when you’re proved wrong?

How sad.

However, nothing more than I expected.

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