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Concerns for the Future

By Phil  Martin :  28/08/2007 :  Comments (27) :
Despite the title of this, I'm not a doom and gloom merchant. In fact I'm probably overly optimistic about all things Everton. I think we may even break our cup voodoo under Moyes this year. But Events over the last few months have got me worried for the future of EFC.

Botched signings are common-place and I'm not blaming EFC for what happened with Fernandes or Gonzalez. Fernandes broke a gentleman's agreement for extra cash. That's his choice, but personally I'm glad we found out now what he is really like. What guarantee do we have, that had he signed and maybe had a great year with us. He wouldn't just jump ship to Barcelona, Ac Milan, etc at the first mention of a pay rise? Kevin Nolan would be a great 'replacement' for him anyway. But thats off the point.

The whole stadium affair really left me feeling cold. Forget about Yes or No votes ? it was basically stuffed down our throats. "Kirkby or rot!!!" Firstly, I don't like ultimatums, which this was. Secondly, despite what KW and BK say ?there are alternatives. Yes, they need alternative funding ? but they are alternatives. Did this Kirkby project get treated with the same public scrutiny and scepticism that these other unoffical alternives have??? The vote came and went and I know people who didn't vote because they felt we would reach a "YES" verdict anyway.

I personally don't see the Kirkby proposal as a bad thing just because its location is on the wrong side of an invisible line. It's the way this fiasco was managed, presented, and inserted into our collective arses that bothers me.

To the people who voted "Yes", I ask, do the Kirkby proposals really give you a flutter of excitement? It's not a sarcastic question, I honestly want to know how you feel. These stadium plans are the most sterile, boring designs I've seen for a long time. For those that argue it's the fans that make the noise not the stadium, why are there countless examples of new stadia having inferior atmospheres compared to the older and smaller ground they replaced? City of Manchester stadium is a prime example.

Nothing will replace Goodison and nor should it. But we can do so much better, can't we? I accept we don't have a huge budget to build a Bernebeau. But surely, if this Kirkby stadium is viable, then shouldn't the 'viability' be judged by whether its possible to build a world-class stadium? After all, Everton FC demands a top-class stadium. By planning a 50,000 sterile JJB replica that would cost us minimal expense... is this meeting our criteria for a future fortress of Everton Football Club?

Is this where our footballing dreams will be fulfilled? Is it viable for Everton FC? Sadly, I don't feel anything when I see these proposed Kirkby designs. No number of evening, stadium-lit images will sway me either. For me, this isn't about which county council the ground will fall under. It's how we aren't meeting our own standards and criteria. We originally wanted a 55,000-60,000 all-seater but now we will be targeting just 50,000. Thats only 1,500 more than Sunderland's capacity and 1,500 less than Newcastle.

I also don't give a fuck what LFC do with their new stadium. I wish they'd just drop off the face of the earth. But, when I hear its going to be 60,000 minimum with a huge Kop, ergonomically designed to enhance the atmosphere, I think what are we planning to make this new stadium unique? The answer is nothing. It's going to be a Tesco's Value Stadium ? nothing more, nothing less.

Is that suppossed £10M extra a year going to put us on an even keel with Chelsea and Man United? No chance, not even close... but the price is that we will leave Goodison having taken the first option presented to us by the club!!!

We talk about demanding the Board show ambition, by giving Moyes money to buy class players. Let's ask the Board to show some ambition again by getting us a new home to be proud of! A new big, intimidating, motherfucker of a stadium with top-class facilities and a unique design.

I could go on, but I won't bore anyone with more. It seems by voting Yes, we have agreed to replace Goodison with an out-of-the-box, characterless, passionless solution. I think we have sold ourselves short! Any club's stadium / ground is the corner piece of the club. Given 100+ years of Goodison magic, is this fit to be ours?

I'm in my early 30s and look forward to another 50 years of following Everton. However, I can't stomach the thought of Everton playing in a (bigger version) Ewood Park-style stadium with a crap atmosphere. It could be one of the biggest footballing turn-offs this club has ever experienced.

In summary:

  1. Have we really exhausted all other avenues?
  2. Why are the Board so opposed to looking elsewhere?
  3. Is this proposal (featuring these proposed stadium designs) really are ticket back to greatness?
  4. Is this stadium proposal (featuring these proposed stadium designs) really the answer?
I need to understand (for my own sanity), why we have settled for the above?

Reader Comments

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Mark
1   Posted 28/08/2007 at 15:42:22

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Where were the other realistic alternatives? The council only came unrealistic alternatives when Kirkby was in place. If there were realistic alternatives why wernt the council telling us about it before now?

Where else are we going to get free land, with access to other revenue generating areas, such as car parks, a decent club shop, and good transport links?

Much as we all love Goodison its not up to the job anymore, is to costly to renovate, and would need to see the club / or council knock down the school and other parts of the area which they havent proposed.



The desisgns we have all seen look good to me, I dont want a souless box (AKA Ewood), I want the atmosphere of Goodison in a new stadium, that has good views for everyone.

Kirkby is the only option, unless you happen to know someone with £500000000 burning a hole in their pocket.
Matt Willey
2   Posted 28/08/2007 at 15:30:57

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Hi Phil, I think KW would answer the questions you pose above as follows;

1) Yes, we spent 18 months in an exclusivity period with Tesco and Knowsley council ... of course all other avenues were adequately covered.

2) Our special advisor is really open to looking at other idea’s... he is not at all motivated by the location of ’Europe’s largest supermarket’, there is no conflict of interest here at all because he is an Evertonian.

3) Yes, the stadium is identical to FC Koln’s, who are the biggest, bestest, club in Europe.

4) Yes ! can’t you get this into your think skulls... we won a landside majority without influencing the media in any way, without rubbishing any alternative suggestions and presenting a well balanced view of the proposal in the material that was released... we also gave KEIOC and LCC at least a week to come up with alternatives and alternative funding... we are the winners HA HA HA !

Phil, I really think that we should all stop questioning the board and their motivation; for the past five years they have all been working tirelessly 24x7 looking at alternative sites, different funding options and new investors...they have had no time whatsoever for TV appearances or setting up radio stations or any other business.. they haven’t even had a lunchbreak... There is no plan B, Tesco Terry is building us a free stadium with free money from his shareholders, suppliers and Knowsley council’s taxpayers... Everton don’t spend anything and they’ll get Ronaldinho, Riquelme and Pele for free once we are there because Kirkby is the best place in the world and much bigger and more famous than Liverpool, which happens to have the word ’poo’ in it...
wes b
3   Posted 28/08/2007 at 16:32:17

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im just waiting for the extra value blue and white striped 2010/11 kit

another reason why EFC is currently a joke

cant even sign a world class player after 3 months trying, no wonder he fucked off to a team that looked like they wanted him. Man city have put a whole team on their books during that time!!! really want to be optomistic with the team and stadium but everything ive seen and heard so far just depresses me!!!!

dont bet on yakubu either how the fuck can he play in england for three years, then when it comes to pulling on a blue shirt all of a sudden its oh no, cant give u a work permit sorry

its looking like the same old story for EFC and im getting pretty fecked off with it
Phil Martin
4   Posted 28/08/2007 at 16:59:18

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Mark, I accept your point. But just saying "The loop" isnt big enough or acessible enough, without allowing professional groups to formulate a full proposal of the site. is slightly unfair.
Why cant we wait a few months longer till these alternatives can be professioanly put together? Packaged the way the Kirkby deal was by the club. Bestway seem confident that investment can be raised for alterntive plans. Why not give the idea a chance?
Then we can compare on a like for like basis.
Kirkby is the first concrete offer we’ve had, and we’ve taken it based on the fact KW tells us there is nothing else.
Just look at the proposed designs -are they really anything other than ordinary? Your right, Goodison needs to be addressed. But are we really doing our club justice with these plans?
All i say is, lets see what other alternatives can be explored. Before jumping into bed with Tesco Terry. After all its the next 50 years we are talking about. Isnt it worth getting absolutely right?>
Lee Mandaracas
5   Posted 28/08/2007 at 16:40:56

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Phil

I have regularly seen responses of people saying ’that sent a chill down my spine’, ’hit the nail on the head’, etc. but that is the first time I have personally felt that way. You make so many of the points I fervently agree with. This is not throwing the rattle out of the pram because we didn’t win the vote. The questions I have for the fans are very simple.

1. If the stadium representation presented recently for the loop were in Kirkby & vice versa how would you have voted? I would probably have voted ’yes’ due to the iconic tower, passion and vision of the architects.

2. Would you have voted to go to Kirkby if all things were equal? Let’s face it, that wouold be an emphatic ’no’ from everyone. The ’yes’ vote was borne out of fear of a lack of alternative, not a desire to choose that option.

3. Is that good enough for our team?

4. Kings Dock failed and we found an alternative (infinitely poorer but an alternative). Why would that not be possible if we turned our attentions away from Kirkby?

5. If this board cannot conduct an expedient, professional purchase of any player of senior merit how can they manage such a massive project on a tiny budget, whoever the Fairy Godmother may be? To qualify this contention Jagielka, Baines and Yakubu (hopefully) all took ages and turned down better offers because they wanted to come to us rather than because we negotiated well. Smith, Nugent, Barton, O’Connor, Koumas, Riquelme???, Richardson, Fernandes, Gonzales, and that’s just this season were all failures - even if some of us were relieved at the outcome in most cases.

6. Most important of all. Do you really believe this Meccano stadium will be the making of our wonderful club or will it simply improve the saleability to an investor for Kenwright, Wyness, et al?

I am very sad at what was for me such a massively disappointing week as an Evertonian. I truly hope I am wrong.
tommy gibbons
6   Posted 28/08/2007 at 20:28:01

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TOFFEEWEB270807

The NO voters, the conspiracy theorists, the naysayers & doomsday merchants (inc the TW editors)!.. What is that you want out of this club of ours?! In case its escaped your notice, we are not a TOP club anymore (but we are slowly making progress in the right direction!)
Point 1.Manny & Agents.. Valencia are a G18 club without the constraints of lesser clubs and of course without the constraints re: 3rd party ownership of players in La Liga, also they only own half of Manny for £10m so his agents can make a fortune on the next transfer... (remember the role of the agents in the Rooney affair!) Your club played it honest and upfront and got sold down the river by the agent and more to the point Manny himself who is either too thick to run his own affairs and has no mind of his own or he is just downright dishonest and dishonourable.. either way, get off the clubs back..it has done nothing wrong at all..
Point 2. The ground move.. again the club have done nothing dishonest or underhand, you asked for a vote, you got the vote, you even had the company who is providing most of the funding for the stadium explain itself!(I think you’ll find that most unusual business practise..never mind actually getting a vote on the matter! you got beat fair and square, take it on the chin and move on..

Pont 3. We know the club has been mismanaged since the early 70’s and we know BK has mismanaged the club along the way too.. however, he and his management team have brokered a deal which could not only lead to securing top flight football for the forseeable future but could even turn us back into the mighty force we once were!.. Nobody else has raised a finger to help the club (because if there had been it would have been splashed all over the media by the company/person wishing to take the club over!) see MU, Lfc, Mcfc , Nufc, Cfc takeovers, and AFC proposed takeover)!

Point 4. If you no longer have faith in the board & your fellow supporters then do the honourable thing, return your season tickets (those who have them), stop going to the games and setup your own club like the disgruntled but honourable supporters of FC United & AFC Wimbledon. You never know, you may make as good a job of it as the last lot that split from Everton..(I’ll let you work the name of that club out for yourselves)..

And finally... the meaning of the letter title... If you think that the YES voters & the NO voters who have graciously accepted the decision & the non conspiracy theorists & ordinary supporters of this club are going to stand idly aside whilst you try to undermine this great club of ours.. I think you’ll find yourselves in for one heck of a battle against those that support this club, WE SHALL NOT BE MOVED from protecting this club from those that seek to destroy it...BECAUSE BELIEVE ME, with the constant bile, misinformation, conspiracy theories etc etc, all YOU do is undermine the very fabric of the club..
IT IS TIME TO TAKE SIDES...
DO YOU CHOOSE TO PROTECT YOUR CLUB!
Vote YES: if you continue to support but ask questions of the club without accusing them of being dishonest and show respect to your fellow supporters...OR
Vote NO: if you think the whole management of the club is rotten to the core and the supporters with an opposite opinion to yours count for absolutely nothing.
chris taggart
7   Posted 28/08/2007 at 21:06:16

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the exclusivity period has lasted 9 months not 18 as has been suggested

the club anounced on dec 05 that they were looking at moving away from goodison, it was 6 months later that KMBC offered 3 sites for posible development LCC offered 0 it was 6 months after that that the exclusivity period started

do you think that if we had a moneybags investor they would give a shit what the fans thought, the current board may not be perfect but i would take them over the hicks or glaziers any day how long before they see 30% season tickets prices rise?


the board should be called to account when they get something wrong but all this boy who cried wolf noncence every 5 minutes makes the fans look like the staff of the plumbing factory in carry on at your convenience
Lee Mandaracas
8   Posted 28/08/2007 at 21:16:07

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Tommy Gibbons

What utter shite! Have you read the detail of the posts on this thread prior to your deluded, hysterical rant? You PRESUME the move to Kirkby will be a good thing. I don’t say it won’t, I say it MIGHT and that makes me worry. Here are some facts for you to read and this time please try to actually read the contect of the text in full, rather than scanning it and over reacting with another jeuvenile tantrum.

Yes was democratically and we are indeed stuck with that for the moment. My concerns were with what I see to be the unprofessional propoganda from a club I love & respect. The problem was with the lack of reasonable explaination for dismissing other options. Lack of funding has been countered by the parties concerned in the loop proposal for example. This may turn out to be total bull but we will not KNOW until we have the full information.

NOBODY KNOWS what the intricacies were of the other options. It is physically impossible to base a fair judgement on supposition and dismissal from those with a blatant agenda to avoid complication of their own ends.

The Manny issue I have is not with missing out on a player due to the greed of any party but to the apparent snail-like pursual of that player.

Your point 3 is incredibly weak. This move COULD result in Champions League football the same way as it COULD result in relegation. Pure conjecture with no foundation. There is no evidence to state that increased crowds will happen at all - presumably this is your basis for believing a new stadium further away from the city than Liverpool’s (thus being a poorer option for concerts, conferences, etc) would result in better performances on the pitch.

As for your final paragraph. How dare you?!!! Because we still have concerns for our club and you are willing to accept what we perceive as mediocrity, what the hell gives you the right to say we seek to destroy it? Who do you think you are with your "WE SHALL NOT BE MOVED" bollocks? This is not some early eighties picket line you know!

Finally, your suggestion that anyone with views differing from yours should surrender their opinions or surrender their support to the club you allege to love so much proves you to be the blinded biggot you clearly are. I want everyone to put money into our club, however much I may disagree with them. Throw as much cash at merchandise and tickets as you possibly can as that is the only way you can grow our club. I would go further than that. I would even allow fans who don’t have season tickets to have an opinion on our club but maybe that’s just because I don’t care enough, eh?
tommy gibbons
9   Posted 28/08/2007 at 21:52:19

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Lee , you make my point for me very succinctly.. You & your ilk argue the toss for arguments sake..Just support the club as it is now, not as it was or might be, if you do that you give it a chance.. if you don’t you seek to destroy.. Your choice mate!
and btw, the only way I could get the piece published on here is by using it as an answer to a question..you see, the TW editors no longer print any of my submissions as letters... thers a conspiracy for ya!!
Lee Mandaracas
10   Posted 28/08/2007 at 22:15:00

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Perhaps your pieces aren’t published because they are pointless, incitive, judgemental, unfounded rants. I don’t know. I have no involvement with TW except to voice my opinion - however selectively you ready my sentences! How on earth have I made your point? Was that during a conversation you had with Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens & Big Bopper? You are utterly deluded. I do not argue the toss for arguments sake but pose questions you skirt around. You have not answered one of my points challenging yours. A sign of a weak standpoint perhaps?

READ THE POSTS and you will (if you are capable of rationale) see that my points are not rants against the yes vote but statements of concern that I, unlike you, am perfectly willing to qualify. These are not judgements or statements without foundation. They are questions and concerns, qualified with basis in each case. Maybe you could learn something from that writing style.

As for supporting the club as it is, what makes you think I do not support them? I am as fervent a blue as ever and always will be. That does not preclude me from having an opinion or concerns about a road we are taking. If anything, that is essential. I refuse to take your suggestion of accepting the status quo, rolling over and playing dead because it is the path of least resistence. This does not mean I wish to undermine the club and I do not consider I have done so at any point. I don’t believe you can truly say the same, whether you believe it or not.
Lee Mandaracas
11   Posted 28/08/2007 at 22:26:23

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P.S. Me and my ilk? If that is how you wish to categorise and dreide me, for the sake of our club I thank God I have an ilk. Without questions being asked, no-one is accountable. Sadly, the ones asked thus far seem to have largeley remained unanswered. Oh well, at least the board have you to defend that position.
Tommy Gibbons
12   Posted 28/08/2007 at 23:24:15

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Your quite full of yourself aren’t you Mr Mandaracas, my piece was aimed at all of those who continue to undermine our club, not just you.. but hey.. I forgive you for not realising that.. and your quite right about me not reading your posts..I didn’t!.. Now.. what part of ’Vote YES: if you continue to support but ask questions of the club without accusing them of being dishonest and show respect to your fellow supporters’...Didn’t you understand
Matt Willey
13   Posted 28/08/2007 at 23:18:37

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Tommy, please calm down mate. I don’t think anyone wants to undermine the club; if Kirkby is coming then it’s coming and in reality all the shouting and bickering will do no good...most, if not all NO’ers will still go and spend money there...supporting the club !

The idea of democracy (as you keep on about it) is that people have an intrinsic right to ’question’, even if they are in a minority... the kind of democracy that Everton offered to the fans was, at best, a Hobson’s choice (look it up)... at worst it was democracy reminicent of the kind that Robert Mugabe practices...

I do not appreciate the fans being strongarmed into a yes vote... now for all I know the club had really good intentions for this; they probably expended thousands of hours in dialogue with other businesses and other councils and came to the educated conclusion that Kirkby was the only option.

I don’t have a problem if this is the case.

However not a soul has seen ANY evidence to suggest that this WAS the case, this for the biggest decision the club has made in more than a century... nor for that matter has anyone seen any evidence (any irrefutable evidence) that the Fernandes transfer was not an elaborate sham designed to tip the balance on the Kirkby vote.

While no evidence exists to the contarary (please point me to the official documents or statements if I am mistaken) I hope you can appreciate that I and others retain the right to be sceptical ... even when evidence is presented one must analyse it with care, pick it to bits and see if it adds up... this is afterall crucial to the future of the club that WE seek to protect.

If you care to throw your mind back a couple of years you will recall that the entire country was duped into thinking that the Iraqi’s had nukes... we sent troops there .. they are still there ...dying, I have family there and it scares me shitless .. Turns out it was all a sham ... maybe the motivation was oil? but anyway the WMD stuff was all ’sexed up’ and that WAS proven...

The paralel with the Kirkby vote is that this could all be being done just to get Tesco planning permission... the custodians of our club could be on a nice little earner on the back of it...hence the reason Kirkby might be being sexed up.. again I am NOT suggesting this is the case.. I am merely hypothesising ... without concrete evidence ALL we can do is guess !
Tommy Gibbons
14   Posted 28/08/2007 at 23:57:33

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I’m sorry Matt... but what are you going on about?! Surely you should be on the BBC Question Time or Newsround websites or some such other political message boards/forums..
This is about Everton Football Club and it’s supporters mate...
Now... what part of ?Vote YES: if you continue to support but ask questions of the club without accusing them of being dishonest and show respect to your fellow supporters?...Didn?t you understand
Tony Miller
15   Posted 28/08/2007 at 23:59:24

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Tommy, I agrea with your sentiments with regards to this and did send a article in along these lines. This was knocked back and on reading it I can see why.

Yes it can get frustrating at times when it apears all you hear is negativity about the club. But the bottom line is everyone who posts on here no mattter what their opinion does so because they care.

We are only similar in that we support Everton other than that we will have differing opinions about many things. the only issue I have is how others not all treat fellow Evertonians. By that debate by all means but less of the vitriolic comments as it will eventually bite you on the bum.

I am sure you have nothing but good in your heart for the club but that goes for everyone in this and other threads.

So make your points, disagree with others but at least consider their words before reaching a decision. By doing so you can hold your head up high.

To all lets show a bit more respect tp each other folks.
Tony Miller
16   Posted 29/08/2007 at 00:23:57

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Phil as a Yes voter no at the moment it does not excite me. to be honest I considered long and hard aboutthe issue before marking my x.

This was a hard decision as the choice was a hobsons choice in many ways. I do think the club have tried to find other options but the time had arrived were they had decided this was the only realistic one available.

As such they got my vote. What disappoints me is that others who disagree. State that it was all a conspiracy it was due to signings. It wasn;t for me and I suggest many others.

I visited all the sites, read all the views considered them and made my decision.As someone else gas said we all have different views but none are less valid.

My hope is that Kirkby will be a success and I believe it has a chance. Guaranteed no but nothing in life is, I cannot guarantee it will be a sucess the same as those who say it will not be.

We will find out in the future but either way werever we may be I will be sat watching the blues.
Matt Willey
17   Posted 29/08/2007 at 00:26:43

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Guys, I respect anyone in a blue shirt ... even a few in red ones after tonight.... I will add though that I really think your statement below is ’loaded’;

?Vote YES: if you continue to support but ask questions of the club without accusing them of being dishonest and show respect to your fellow supporters?

I won’t go into the intriciacies of propositional logic... this is an Everton fan site after all.

However, the crux of the matter is that none of us know (for certain) who is, or is not, being dishonest... it is therefore imposible to answer YES... I think that we can agree that ’honesty implies trust’ ... so, in turning the question on it’s head;

Do you trust Bill Kenwright, Terry Leahy AND Keith Wyness...?

Now if you can answer YES to that, then that is cool... your statement is true (to you). Unfortunately, despite all the good things that these guys have done which are highly commendable; I can also recall a few bad ones (I won’t provide a list0... therefore I do not trust them all and by implication I can’t answer YES to your question... neither can I answer NO based on the choice of statements you have presented, I don’t believe the management is rotten (to the core) and I am more than willing to embrace the logical arguments of my fellow supporters (provided the logic stacks up).

Paradoxically, your two YES/NO statements present exactly the same scenario as the Kirkby vote... I guess this is probably the reason why so many abstained.
Andy Mack
18   Posted 29/08/2007 at 08:31:03

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... modelled on Koln’s stadium... are you having a laugh. It has four sides and that’s where the similarities end. No towers and we are building thre interior on the CHEAP, one of the few things the board have confirmed! This will not be a world class stadium, it will just be Ewood Park II, and as for all the YES voters who go on about better transport links, a car park for 1000 is usless for a 50k, sorry, 55k or sorry, is that 48k seater stadium.
Phil Martin
19   Posted 29/08/2007 at 09:40:34

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My original post was not intended to cause create a YES versus No argument. It was more intended to ask the YES voters why we are voting for a project (that in my opinion) is way below our Everton standards.
Saying "well we aren’t a top club anymore", "beggards cant be choosers", "Do you know someone with £50000000", is completely ridiculous. These comments indicate how low our expectations are for the future. Why shouldnt we expect a big,brand new, top class stadium?
A super looking proposal will attract investment. Please dont tell me to setup my own splinter EFC tribute club if I dont want to go to Kirkby. I follow Everton and I only want whats best, as do we all! However If this Kirkby plan was so fucking good. Why did they have to come up with scare stories about Goodison collapsing in 5 years. Why couldnt they just sell the Kirklby move, rather than slate other proposals?
Steve Lyth
20   Posted 29/08/2007 at 11:37:21

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Tony, there is no chance that Kirkby will be a success whilst Kenwright and Slyness preside at the helm.
Commercially they are fuckin useless at running the club hence the outsourcing of everything.
Maybe they should think about outsourcing transfers ?
I would not trust these two to put a meccano stadium up, they would almost certainly overspend on that.
Lets hope Slyness gets his sums wrong and ends up with nothing more than his pay, when his mission is accomplished.
colin riley
21   Posted 29/08/2007 at 14:25:45

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Yo to tommy gibbins.So youl be voting a masive yes to the shiny new tescoand the johnsons the cleaners and the fruit and veg shop all attatched to our loveley new stadium in the countryside area of KIRKBY."WANKER SPRINGS TO MIND"about you .
The likes of you would vote yes to anything the club wanted.ie letting the shite use goodison as their new car park.So in future shut your fuckin gob cos your oppinion means didly fuckin squat areshole.Hope i find tou at the match knobhead.
Steve Lyth
22   Posted 29/08/2007 at 16:41:15

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Col, are you going for the highest level of abuse letter category mate ?
Theres a stiff level of competition but I think yours is right up there. LOL
Matt Willey
23   Posted 29/08/2007 at 17:03:44

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Andy Mack, Nail hit squarely on the head mate... a 50000 capacity ground out of town will probably need 15000 car parking spaces minimum... suffice to say that Saturday’s are the biggest traditional shopping day so these spaces can hardly be shared with Tesco. Don’t know about buses being put on but I know for sure that the traditional walk-up crowd will be severely reduced... still at least the Tesco-value-drome will look like FC Koln’s stadium (from a distance) ... If we are copying other designs verbatim why can’t we copy Bayern’s or Ajax’s stadiums ... (don’t tell me ... because they can’t be built using Tesco Value concrete)
Lee Mandaracas
24   Posted 29/08/2007 at 17:44:18

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Tommy

You didn’t read my posts? Strange how there was an answer to each immediately following. My accusation (clearly proven) was that you did not read the detail. As such, you had no basis on which to challenge me without knowing what I was saying. A perfect demonstration of why you voted yes. You will take the most minor hint of an intention, interpret it the way you wish it to be, wrap it up tightly in your own agenda and place your support entirely there, however deluded and fantastic the conclusion may be.

Now that I have said that, I wholeheartedly invite you to have the final say in our tennis match of one-sided logic. You have acheived nothing more than to thoroughly bore me (and it seems a few others) whilst managing to demonstrate your weakness in a debate and bringing nothing but bile to the table.

I am sorry Phil’s piece has been lost in the petty wrangling between you & I. I fully accept my share of the blame for the bickering when all I wished to do was to contribute my opinion rationally. Phil, I apologise to you for that. My cards are now thrown in on this thread but never on my belief that we as a club deserve much better. NSNI
tommy the heavyweight
25   Posted 29/08/2007 at 19:58:02

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lee..did you see the comments by Mr Riley? what do you say about that? btw, where is the bile! I have spouted,,please show me the error of my ways..I thought I spouted my opinion without deriding individuals or threatening them..
Anyway, it seems whilst you have the likes of Mr Riley on your side you can’t lose can you!!
Mr Riley, I’d like to take you up on your invitation to meet mate, just tell me where and when and I’ll be there..
Lee Mandaracas
26   Posted 29/08/2007 at 20:51:08

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I’m sorry but I can’t help it. I said I was throwing my hand in and withdrawing from this thread but comparing me with Mr Riley is entirely unneccessary and I am appalled at the comparison. You & I disagree. I find your jeuvanile rantings quite pathetic and you and I will never agree (I believe this is due to your beligerance rather than any particular disagreement on points.)

Your bile (in my opinion) was demonstrated particularly in your first posting on this thread. Read your final paragraph again and you may see my point (doubt it though).

As much as we disagree I would never condone threats of any nature and, as such, am more than disappointed that you would tag me so unnecessarily. I believe that warrants an apology. Now please accept that I disagree with you fundamentally but do not wish to be involved in playground, ’my Dad’s bigger than your Dad’ or ’See you at playtime’ antics. Now I really have had enough. Can we just agree to disagree and move on to supporting our team please?
Chris Gibbon
27   Posted 02/12/2007 at 14:26:03

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I'm suprised your upset that your capacity wil only be 1500 more than sunderland and 1500 less than newcastle. What makes you think that Everton are a bigger club than either of these? You have recently had more success than either of these clubs and still cant attract fans, regularly not selling your tickets.

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