Column

The truth will set you free!

Michael Tracey 10/09/2007 46comments  |  Jump to last
Everyday I come onto ToffeeWeb and read the posts and viewpoints from everybody who is in the Everton family. Everton is like one big family and like all families has unrests accusations and conflicts. But at the end of the day everybody has their opinions! What do they say about Opinions and assholes? Some people are more forceful and some are more thought out.

I have been an Evertonian well since I was born. I was not born in Liverpool, and have no family heritage in the region at all. I was born about 15,000 miles away in a seaside town called Hastings, Victoria. My old man is a Tottenham fan, a Cockney through and through. He has said that he can?t explain why I am an Evertonian and I go all along with the "we do not choose, we are chosen" because I believe that there is something special that leads a lot of us to this great football club.

I have been there through thick and thin, the good times, the bad and, well, the just plain forgettable ? as a lot of others, I have no doubt. I have spent a lot of money over the years and I did get a vote through being an Evertonia member for quite a while now. I have had the good fortune (that I think too many in Liverpool take for granted) to see the Blues play at Goodison twice in my life. Both times we lost 2-1 and played like absolute clowns. For the pleasure of these defeats it cost me plenty of pounds but I was made up just for the experience.

I will once again make the thousands of miles (and pounds) trek to watch My Blues in December at the Grand Old Lady for the Bolton match. I will be bringing my future wife in what will be her first game because I want to show her what it is that makes it all so worthwhile and The Buzz when the Z-Cars theme starts playing out of the old speaker system. The first time I looked down on the pitch I knew I was home. I had tears in my eyes.

The point of my story, you ask? I find it offensive that there are people who don?t value the contribution that thousands like me have made and make to this great Old Club. The Tony Marsh?s who claim that unless you live in Liverpool you cannot be a real supporter. I am an Evertonian no more or no less than you! But, regardless of what eventually happens in terms of the move, I will still support them no matter what and go whenever I can. So probably I am more of an Evertonian!

I voted No because it was a vote for common sense. I am thousands of miles away and I can tell you that stench from the Kirkby proposal can be smelt from here. It is the biggest load of propaganda I have seen! Adolf Hitler or Mr Bush would be proud of the spins coming out of Fat Keith?s mouth and the lack of anything coming from Billy Liar?s. Everton is Liverpool and nothing else ? why would anyone want to move away from there heartland to a little town on the outskirts?

Liverpool is the place to be, all the investments and regeneration that is taking place and we want to move another 4 miles away so we can play in a retail park and generate profits for Tesco?s, be real. The most disappointing thing is the ones who didn?t vote who were entitled to! But the powers that be would have known this and their democratic vote (yeah right) would get the result they wanted. The Yes voters did what they thought was right and will be lying in 20 years time and say that they voted No, just so they wont feel bad about what they did.

I for one think that the people in charge should walk, considering all the lies and mistruths year after year. NTL money, The Fortress Sports Fund, Rooney deal, Tim Howard transfer, Kings Dock, Stanley Park, The figures on Kirkby, The 24/7 Investment search, The apparent search of Available Sites in The City, The lying about the research done on Renovating Goodison... and there?s more but I think you can see what is happening here. A huge lie and we ? well 15000 (bah bash) ? have fallen for the Kirkby sham.

The Yes-men keep the same old story: where are the other options? A free stadium for nothing (£50 mill isn?t free); No-one else can give us concrete costings like they did with Kirkby! (What are the concrete costings for Kirkby?, the story changes every minute); How come other sites weren?t offered before? (Well, 'Exclusivity pPeriod and it seems as though they were!), Goodison Park can?t be redeveloped? (Maybe so, but where are the reports?) Why is the Council just coming in now? (Would you want to deal with KW and BK after all the financial mismanagement and downright incompetence in the past (Kings Dock)?). Why did Bestway just jump in now? (Exclusivity Period and Fat Keith wont talk to them!)

I could go on and on but I will not. To me it seems as though Fat Keith and BK are arm in arm with Tesco Terry and our fate was sealed months ago. I just hope that one day these fools will have their day in the sun and explain why they sold us down the river! WE all know why? Money Money Money. Hitler once said the bigger the lie, the more believable it is! I think the Big Lie has tricked too many of my Everton Family and we will all be sorry in a few years time!

Reader Comments

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Christopher Kennedy
1   Posted 10/09/2007 at 09:29:02

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This is not a well thought out argument. Its passionate, from the heart and no doubt, will find alot of support from the die-hards, but not a well thought out argument. Everton indeed lost thier only real chance of a viable city venue with the Kings Dock fiasco, but, the local city council, were as much to blame if not more than the Everton Board. Anyone who has visited Goodison has to conceed that there is no room for development at the site. If as a club we are not going to attract the sort of foriegn investment that Man City, Man Utd, the scum or Birmingham, and I for one hope we dont, then we have to secure additional revenue schemes. There has been arguments that no-one wants to visit the outskirts of a city for thier conference requirments! That just isnt the case. There are many out of city conference facilities throughout the UK which make a nice tidy sum thank you very much. The Kirby location makes sencse in terms of transportation and easy access which includes attending pop concerts etc. True, £50million isnt ’FREE’ but as a return on our investment, an state of the art stadium with conference facilities and easy access for home and visiting fans alike, an opportunity to cement training facilities and develope our acadamy and despite hating the concept, this is an opportunity to cash in on much improved corporate facilities. We wont get the outside investment so we must generate our own finances and this is the best deal available to us with no others in the offering. We must all get behind the scheme and use our influence to push forward the design and development of the new statdium and facilities in order to ensure it is the best available.
Neil Pearse
2   Posted 10/09/2007 at 09:45:35

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I was going to reply to this in some detail, but have decided not to. With the repeated comparisons of BK and KW to Adolf Hitler, the penny has finally dropped with me (I am probably a bit slow).

Michael and others think that the current Board and Management of Everton Football Club are evil liars who are only involved with Everton for the money. (Personally I think they are far from perfect, as proven by many of my posts on this site.)

You have every right to hold these to my mind extreme opinions, and I can see why it would lead you to disbelieve everything that the current management says, and oppose everything that they do.

But there is no point arguing with you if this is what you believe. You are way beyond rational discussion. So I, for one, am going to stop.
David Weston
3   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:05:08

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Well written Michael,I can’t see what was extreme about it Neil. Repeated accusations of BK and KW to Hitler did you actually read what he was saying? Obviously not! He never said that they were like him at all. The spin that they used would of made him proud that was all. If you are going to comment on something at least have the decency to read it. Or maybe you didn’t understand it! Or maybe you have fallen for all the spin as well?
Dave Reade
4   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:13:22

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Warren Bradley is about as incompetent a politician as you can find his handling of Matthew St was an example of that. I presume he is a liberal democrat the middle of the road party. You know what happens to people who stand in the middle of the road. The Liverpool 2008 Capital of Culture is one of the biggest farces of all time. Just as if people will be flocking here from all over Europe, have you seen the state of Lime Street, they are actually cutting back on flights at Speke Airport like the VLM flight to London, the NYC flight and Ryanair have cut destinations because no one uses them. Do we know who the capital of culture for 2007 is so we can all flock there or any other previous year. The city is full of fancy apartments lying empty because no one lives in them bought by financial companies who now cant rent them out.
I am no fan of Kenwright or Wyness whatsoever and do not trust them but I would never trust a politician either despite the fact they are Evertonians, would you trust Hatton? Who the hell are Bestway anyway. Most people have never heard of them, I found out they were a cash and carry. Lets get on with supporting the team whether they play in the centre of Liverpool the outskirts of Liverpool or wherever.
Tony Marsh has the club at heart and he says things with the best of intentions but lets face facts when incompetents like Bradley are involved I wouldnt hold out much hope for us.
In the early 50’s Kirkby Croxteth and Speke were all created to move the people out of central Liverpool, the overspill as they called it and the fact we were badly damaged in the war and people needed rehousing. Speke is just as far away as Kirkby but if they built the ground at one of the proposed sites in Speke would we be happy, I think they are talking of the vast carpark near B&Q where all the unsold brand new cars are stored. Have you ever tried to go to the Retail Park on a Saturday or Sunday, if they built a stadium there you would miss the first half stuck in traffic, one road in one road. I dont recall seeing any alehouses there either.
Michael Tracey
5   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:13:57

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Christopher,I voted no for Kirkby but that doesn’t mean that I want Everton to stay at Goodison. If it is proven that Goodison cant be redeveloped (which is Porbably the case)then I don’t have a problem. But where is the findings from The Board to say that its not viable. They have said that they have looked into and thats it. I for one will not follow because I told you so on this one.They happily rubbish anything that even experts have contradicted but are unwilling to come up with any real substance themselves. Look I would love to believe what they say because I want whats best for Everton, but there are too many lies. And Neil I’m sorry if I might seem a bit extreme but I didn’t say that they were like Hitler I just merely noted that he would of loved there spin. So yes I do think that you missed something. Or maybe twisted my words around to try and find a point (which by reading your other comments in other posts is probably the case). But hey its your opinion and I respect it.
Chris Taggart
6   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:16:46

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the club announced that they were searching for a new ground in late 2005, 6 months later KMBC offered 3 sites for posible development whilst LCC offered 0 the start of the exclusivity period was late december 2006

What you can infer from this is that the board have looked at other sites with their prefered development partners , however have not put other choices to the popular vote as kirkby ticks all the boxes as far as the club is concerned.

If you are going to call the board then it should be for the lack of options however i am not entirly sure that the lack of options is entirly in their hands

you then have to look at the squirming done by bradley at the weekend, m


who has gone from kirkby isnt in liverpool to they cant build there as the land is owned by LCC honest, irony alert anyone

there seems to be a view that BK and bully spend their days ploting how to piss off the fans, which is unsuported by any tangible evidence however it assists the no campain to garner support to perpetuate the exclusivity period/ bk/bully are evil myth

without giving any respect to the facts




Michael Tracey
7   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:37:52

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Dave Reade I will never stop supporting Everton! They could play anywhere. I just don’t like not being called a proper fan by someone who didnt get there own way and now want go to games when they move to Kirkby. Or even worse when low and behold you disagree with him then you get verbal abuse from him. Thats pathetic! Hey you are probably right about Bradley too, but hes passionate as well. I guess the only problem is who do you believe? I this time will choose the politician.
Taf Rail
8   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:54:51

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So where are the reports to back up the search for alternatives Chirs. The board have been as clear as mud on this. Where are the concrete costings about the Kirkby Site Chris? The facts are that the board have not produced any facts themselves. The Kirkby Tesco deal was done ages ago. The Vote was just a stunt to make them look good. Do you really think That Big Keith gives a shit about Everton?
dave reade
9   Posted 10/09/2007 at 10:57:25

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Michael what annoys me is that we have a big fan base outside of Liverpool North Wales, outlying towns Widnes Runcorn etc and those people get abused for having an opinion. I am a Scouser who lives in Knowsley council and works in Liverpool I too have been abused for saying i voted yes, I personally dont care where Everton play in the Liverpool area I will be there, even if they painted Anfield blue and put us in there I would go because the team comes first not the incompetents who own and run the club, I dont care if there is or isnt an alehouse nearby, I do care if traffic and public transport are not sorted out as it that should be a major factor where we go I do think Kirkby will be a bottleneck and something would have to be done about that.
What annoys me about Goodison is the obstructed view from seats even if you sit in the middle of the main stand, the poor toilets and snackbar facilities, the parking, and the corporates who now sit in your seat that Wyness moved you out of, i agree with Roy Keane about the Prawn Sandwich brigade because they sit in my old seat which pisses me off. I am sure Wongs chippy will go bust and the vicar of the church next door wont make any money selling tea and scones and the Wilmslows takings will be well down, which I am sorry for.
However as much as BK and Bullybeef cant be trusted a politician cant either.
ps I was interested to hear Bully earns bonuses for side deals, isnt that a sackable offence to be doing side deals at your place of employment sounds dodgy to me.
Taf Rail
10   Posted 10/09/2007 at 11:06:18

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And another thing Neil why did you even bother to comment? Because you made yourself look like an ass thats what you did! How do you spell Plonker? N e i l P e a r s e..
Neil Pearse
11   Posted 10/09/2007 at 11:56:33

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Actually Taf (thanks for the personal abuse - you must be a NO voter), I have been engaging in debate on the Kirkby issue on this site for the last few months, but I have finally despaired.

I replied to say that I think all you guys who believe that Kenwright and Wyness are evil people (say what you like Michael, Hitler is in there repeatedly as a comparison) only in it for their own personal financial gain, are basically bonkers.

At any rate, it is impossible to discuss things sensibly with people who are so out of touch with reality. On top of that is the repeated personal abuse. So for me that’s it. (Really this time.)
chris taggart
12   Posted 10/09/2007 at 12:12:36

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Taf

why should the board disclose details of options they consider not viable? its not the bloddy x factor.

if as you say the kikby deal was done long ago then that is what a propper buisnesman would have done

you cant have it both ways
Brian Wolf
13   Posted 10/09/2007 at 12:27:13

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If BK and KW are like Hitler then Warren Bradley is like Saddam Hussein, or Pol Pot or Pinochet.

That man doesn’t care about Everton as much as he claims to do. If he did he certainly wouldn’t have got himself as involved in Liverpool FC’s stadium as he did. He may say it would never happen while he was in charge, but it did, and he was involved and he went to dinner with the chief execs to "talk about it" (backhanders, nudge, nudge, wink, wink) and he is as big a liar as you claim KW and BK are.
Brian Wolf
14   Posted 10/09/2007 at 12:36:19

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Dave Reade
The current Capitals for culture (2007) are Luxembourg and greater region (Luxembourg), Sibiu (Romania).

Has it made their tourism any better? Has it buggery.
Are they now in debt because they haven’t received all the money they expected? You betcha.
dave reade
15   Posted 10/09/2007 at 12:47:06

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thanks for info brian i did go to cork on a stag weekend and discovered they were recently capital of culture the place wasnt that nice so where the money went i dont know. It will cost 11 quid a day to park at Liverpool One new shopping mall, its free at the trafford centre, you wonder why you hear so many scouse accents there, you also see all the businesses that have gone bust like wade smith due to the dig, Bradley is accountable for all this so dont have any faith in him as an alternative to Kirkby.
Brian Wolf
16   Posted 10/09/2007 at 12:52:23

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Dave, I don’t trust Bradley in the slightest.

Anyone who would believe him over anyone else wants their head read. He is as slippery as they come.
Keith Foley
17   Posted 10/09/2007 at 13:27:47

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Irrespective of how you voted are personal insults, e.g."Fat Keith", really necessary? Stick to the debate. Such language diminishes the strength or otherwise of your views.
Peter Barnes
18   Posted 10/09/2007 at 13:32:08

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We have a hard core of approx 35,000 fans attending matches rising to perhaps 40,000 for a big match, on top of that maybe 10,000 who go occasionally once or twice a season. We probably have a good 30,000 fans who cant afford to go to the game pensioners, students etc, then on top of that many thousands of fans who live elsewhere in the UK or abroad who can only go every blue moon. So at the most we can put 40,000 into a stadium at a push less the people who now wont go because it is in Kirkby.
Our corporate sales are poor you can see that by the many empty seats in the front row of the main stand, I presume all the executive boxes are not full.
We do not have a waiting list for season tickets like other clubs do.
Our lack of success in the last 20 years correlating with the inauguration of Prem League and Sky TV coverage has not helped our situation, we dont have hoardes coming over from Ireland anymore for a match for example..

My point is after that long preamble is how the hell are we going to fill a 60,000 stadium for most games, it will look like Villa Park or Middlesboro with empty seats everywhere.
I dont think some kid in Speke is going to stop supporting Everton because the ground is in Kirkby because that is irrelevant to him.
I also think people travelling from surrounding areas dont give a damn if the ground is in Aintree, Kirkby, Huyton or Tony Marsh’s back garden.
If we lose fans who dont want to travel to Kirkby that is the diehard KEIOC’s then how does Mr BK and fat Keith aim to fill the place with new supporters, It seems a technicolour dream(coat) to me
Chris kennedy
19   Posted 10/09/2007 at 14:26:46

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Listen Lads,
This subject has caused more argument and personal abuse then any other subject ever for this great club of ours. The personal abuse isnt necessary. Its a simple fact that the board of Everton make the decision come what may. Whatever the alternantives (I’m still of the opinion that none were offered),they decided that the Kirkby site was the most viable and cost effective way if moving the club forward. Who the hell says that its not in Liverpool? My mum and her family were moved out there after the war and she and her relatives consider themselves Scousers. What is being lost in all this wrangling is a clear point of fact - Everton, under BK and DM have moved on considerabley in the last five years and it looks as though that will continue. Lets just all get on with supporting the team and stop the in fighting.
Tom Hughes
20   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:04:01

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Chris,
I too agree that Kirkby people are practically as scouse as the rest of us. Likewise many people in Runcorn, Skem, the Wirral and even parts of North Wales would have similar claims.....It isn’t in Liverpool though, and that may or may not have a severe effect on the club’s future identity, and how we are perceived. This will be taken advantage of by our neighbours, who could blame them, and we will be counter-marketed as the out of town club or whatever other derogitory handle they want to put on it. However, to be honest I don’t think this is the worst aspect of the Kirkby proposal. The increased inconvenience for those who live throughout Merseyside with no direct public transport links to Kirkby will greatly affect our support. The thousands who do not rely on cars to get to the match are going to be snookered. The shortfall is massive. This, at a time when practically all our games are televised by some channel or other, and can be viewed in our locals, how many will fall by the wayside? We are already seeing this now, we barely fill our stadium regularly , where are the extra 15-20,000 going to come from, and if they don’t come how will we service our new debt? I agree things on the pitch seem to have come on quite well in the last 5 years, but it could be argued that that was despite the board not because of them. Moyes has until this year consistently had the smallest budget of any major club.... the fact that he has coped is credit to him, not the club.
Tony Marsh
21   Posted 10/09/2007 at 15:39:29

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Hey Micheal I agree with most of your post but I dont know where this The Tony marshs think your not a real supporter if you dont live in Liverpool comes from.I have never said that.If you can find it on here I will be grateful
if you can point it out.I have had ago at the out of town supporters who voted yes to Kirkby
without even knowing where it is.Surely to vote for something so important you must of at least seen the place and know what you are voting for.Thats what I had a go at not Everton fans coming from outside the city. As far as I am concerned it a case of the more the merrier .You spoiled a good article by doing what so many others have done on here and that is wisting what I have said.Still I suppose it its the only way some people can get their arguments across by sticking my name in the posts they send and hoping to get me to bite.
David Barks
22   Posted 10/09/2007 at 16:09:28

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Whatever Tony, you call the "out-of-towners" who agree with you real supporters but those who don’t agree with you are not real Evertonians. Your logic is ridiculous. It’s okay for out of towners who have never been to Kirkby to vote against the move, that’s fine in your book. But if they vote for it they are traitors. Nobody made you the judge of what is and isn’t a "true Evertonian" so stop claiming the authority to do so.
Dave Roberts
23   Posted 10/09/2007 at 18:52:13

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For someone who lives 15,000 miles away you don’t half sound like Tony Marsh! And how do you know keith is fat from that distance, or are you just repeating what you’ve read no here?

It started off quite gooey and likeable and I thought, ’Ooh, this will be a change...and nice’, and then it degenerated into a typical KEIOC piece. Where do you live Mike? Did you make this up?
Dave Roberts
24   Posted 10/09/2007 at 18:57:32

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I think Tony Marsh if finally succumbing to megalomania! He thinks it’s all about him! (read his post above)

By the way Tony you say you have only had a go at ’out of towners’ (who voted YES) only when they don’t know where Kirkby is. So how come you had a go at me a while back even though I said I have family there?
Gobblywiddidunk
25   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:05:20

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I come from Mars and I think the move to Kirkby is crap. I have been a real Evertonian ever since my father gave birth to me. I tried to get to Goodison once but my spaceship was shot down and I crash-landed at a place called Analfield where I lost my interest in Football. I continue to love Everton though, so please listen to me. Do not go to Kirkby. Kirkby is more remote than Mars and you will need a Tardis to get there (or a tram) It will be the death of our club and my planet.
PAUL KEIOC
26   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:27:04

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Turned off for ALL CAPS - MK KENWRIGHT NO LONGER THINKS OF EVERTON AS THE TEAM HE SUPPORTES, ITS NOW A BUSINESS HE DOESNT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE FANS ALL HES IN IT FOR IS THE MONEY, I WONDER WHAT HIS VIEWS ON THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN 10 YEARS AGO IF THAT TWAT JOHNSON WOULD HAVE TRIED THE SAME ? THINK I WOULD HAVE RATHER HAD JOHNSON ATLEAST WE KNEW HE WAS A TWAT ONLY INTERESTED IN IT FOR MONEY.

I HAVE HAD A SEASON TICKET FOR 10 OF THE LAST 11 YEARS AND I NEVER GOT A VOTE! WHY NOT ?

LAST THING AM GOING TO SAY ON IT IS FUCK OFF KENWRIGHT AND TAKE WYNESS WITH YOU KEIOIC
Barry Bragg
27   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:24:47

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Why are we still having this debate?
The result of the vote came in weels ago. We are going to Kirkby!
I can JUST imagine the uproar if the vote had gone 60/40 against Kirkby and Kenwright was still campaigning to go there.
The No vote only required 51% of the vote and we would not be going to Kikby. As it happened they only needed 51% of 25,000 and they could not even get that.
The majority have spoken. Put your egos aside get over yourselves and accept the decision that has been made by your fellow evertonians.

Dave Roberts
28   Posted 10/09/2007 at 19:58:01

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Paul KEIOC,

If ever there was doubt as to why KEIOC lost the plot and the majority
then look no further than your own submission son.

Anger and unwarranted accusations which are not backed by any evidence outside of your own bigotry. If you did not get the vote you were entitled to then demand an explanation and do not let it lie, although I imagine there were just as many who would have voted YES who also did not get their vote.Sheer blind hatred is a very destructive emotion and strangely, the victims are usually those who harbour and express it and not the intended targets.Be careful, gaskets are fragile.
Shaun OS
29   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:42:38

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Curby, Boootle, Krosby and Speak are all part of scouse land guys - let build smart right on the motorway network and get the extra 10k fans to each home game.
Matt Willey
30   Posted 10/09/2007 at 20:57:42

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Shaun OS... not environmentally friendly ! Naughty boy ... ! I bet you haven’t got loft insulation either!
AJ (London)
31   Posted 10/09/2007 at 22:12:38

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So ToffeeKeioc has ANOTHER no article which adds precisely nothing to the debate.

You wouldn’t think we were playing Manure on Saturday, and then embarking on our (hoped for) great European adventure next week.

Write articles on the "no" campaign, but for God sake can someone tread new ground, its boring.
Michael Tracey
32   Posted 10/09/2007 at 23:52:05

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Well Dave Roberts I know what Keith looks like because of things like television and the internet. Funny enough thats what we are using now. Currently I live in Laos which is in Asia. No I didn’t make this up. Yes I know perfectly well where Kirkby is too! Anymore questions? I think the point is that even someone who has no attachment (except for the same love Everton that you obviously have as well) to the Liverpool area can see that this a rotten egg. I would have no reason to put down any town or place in the North West. I never said anything bad about Kirkby either! Its just a foolish move to move away from our heartland to a town on the outskirts. So from my point of view the only think that would cause such a misguided move is the power of the mighty pound! BK (Great Evertonian for sure) but he is holding us back and can see a big quid in it for himself and as for Big Keith well I know he only has one thing on his mind. We have been railroaded into this and we need to stand up and say No. So I’m sorry but as I said before take all the bull shit and lying out of it and demonstrate that you have exhausted every possible option of staying where the club belongs and if you have well Kirkby here we come! And once again Neil Pearse read the article properly this time then comment because yes you are twisting again.
rich jones
33   Posted 10/09/2007 at 23:58:34

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Bk was working on the post and echo long before this got to this heated stage, has anyone read either of them lately its like reading the evertonian or a matchday programme. Dont under estimate this guy, you start with the media first he only needed to control the local media because who gives a shit in Fleet street. What ever happened to that guy who used to give Bk a hard time in the Post?
Craig Tomasinski
34   Posted 11/09/2007 at 01:13:12

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The only concern I would have with the stadium being away from the city would be transport and access. As I live in Victoria, Australia I remember a stadium that was built down here for our AFL football called Waverly which was a fair way from the city. This stadium held 75000 - 80000 people and transport to and from the stadium was never properly built and therefore the stadium was hard to fill. It only was for the biggest matches. This stadium closed about 10 years ago in favour of an inner city stadium (Telstra Dome) at a large cost. In all, Waverly was only around for approximately 20 years as the league realised they made a mistake in building the stadium ’out of town’. I hope it doesnt turn bad on Everton after they build it because it is an expensive mistake to make.
Tom Hughes
35   Posted 11/09/2007 at 10:04:00

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Craig.... I think it’s an accurate analogy..... there are many similar examples in the states. Some of those out of town stadia are only 30 years old and were really expensive in their day and have never paid for themselves. The downtown versions have completely rejuvenated the clubs involved. we’re proposing the opposite because it suits Tesco.... and in a 2 team city too!!! makes no commercial or logistical sense!
chris taggart
36   Posted 11/09/2007 at 13:59:49

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transport was not the only problem with waverly park it would seem

lack of corporate and spectator facilities along with bad design and poor construction would apear to be a factor, meaning the fans lacked protection undercover in a rain belt, and were significantly some distance from the pitch due to the size

construction began in 1966 and was completed into its current shape (or last full usage shape in 1974)last game held there in 1999, so in all had a life span of 40 years aprox.

and again with the states the majority of the new stadiums were built to host the world cup in 1992, given that MLS is still in its infancy Compared to the english leagues, it has a long way to go with the competition from baseball ,NFL,wrestling, basketball, ice hockey etc

given that it is unlikely that KIRKBY will face the same problems i can see that the analagy is flawed

the fact is until the gates open you cannot predict the likely outcome however if man city could continue to attract 26k in division 2, i cant se why we wont atract 40,000 + at kirkby
Leo Nashley
37   Posted 11/09/2007 at 19:48:50

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Well done to Michael Tracey for comparing the actions of Wyness to Hitler.

According to Godwin’s Law eventually this would have been done anyway, but by getting it out of the way we can go on and read his ridiculous conspiracies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin_Law

Why do you think Wyness and Kenwright hate Everton so much and just want to milk the club of money? That was the last guy in charge if memory serves me right. Kirby is a solution to a problem. If anyone can come up with a concrete proposal, that we can afford, to keep us in Liverpool, before we agree to build in Kirby I’m sure the club would listen. There are none. Move along, nothing to see here.
EFC
38   Posted 11/09/2007 at 20:29:12

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i voted yes because until we move no one will take over us knowing they will have to pay for a new stadium nad why does it matter being out of liverpool by 4 miles because there will still be more scousers there than in anfield
Tom Hughes
39   Posted 11/09/2007 at 21:52:39

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EFC: Am I talking to the club?

Portsmouth were taken over before they had a new stadium.

Chris T: I’m not sure what City’s attendances in Div 2 have to do with it, but City’s new stadium is within walking distance of the city centre.

The success of the likes of Camden Yards in the states and several others have sparked the biggest stadium boom in almost a century..... they are nearly all downtown, and this in the home of auto-culture.
Dave Moorcroft
40   Posted 11/09/2007 at 22:34:25

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Stanley park is big enough for the two clubs.Tesco can have the goodison park site to build a big new shop.Everyones happy ok.No because Tesco will get two shops for the price of one,Kirkby and GP,Its all done and dusted.I would call upon every EVERTONIAN to fight this short term gain for the select few who will make big bucks out of the Kirkby project and leave us totally in the shite to rot and play MARINE as they said if we stay at GP.I know we need a new stadium,But why wont they talk to the other people who want to talk to them.I hope BK rots in hell for this,He is a conman.Sir John Moores will be Turning in his Grave,NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM.Wheres it gone?.
John Royle
41   Posted 11/09/2007 at 23:08:58

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LCC had years to come up with suitable sites, but they didn’t. Bradley has said recently that there are sites, but we would have to pay for them [and then pay for the stadium build], which is a major snag as we don’t have the money.
LCC misjudged the situation and miscalculated that we would only look at sites within the city boundaries.
Bradley is a politician, his interest is in being re-elected. His sudden concern arises from the fact that he doesn’t want to lose the votes of Evertonians.
Kenwright is slagged off on here for all sorts of reasons, yet it’s the fact that he put up millions and mortgaged himself to the hilt to rid us of Johnson. Also a fact that he is the only PL chairman who doesn’t draw any kind of wage from his club. How many of Kenwright’s critics will mortgage their houses and donate the proceeds to the club? Or donate a week’s wages?
Wyness is criticised for being a businessman, only interested in making money. He is the CEO for christ’s sake, that’s his job. Ah, but he earns bonuses and can do contract work on the side- just like any other CEO. Somebody even tried to blame him for King’s Dock, which was dead and buried long before he arrived.
We’d all prefer to stay at Goodison, but it’s not feasible. This has been known for years and all the studies and materials have been analysed in detail- eg by Mickey Blue Eyes on BlueKipper, which is well worth reading.
I grew up in Bootle which is of course outside the ridiculous KEIOC definition of ’our city’, which is based on a historical political gerrymander and ignores the fact that Goodison was outside ’our city’ when we first went there.
Get real, accept the vote, support the club. And stick ’your city’ where the sun don’t shine.
Craig Tomasinski
42   Posted 12/09/2007 at 01:06:45

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Chris, you are correct in pointing out those other issues with Waverly Park. I attended several football matches there and I can say it was not the best stadium to watch football from. In using that as an analogy to compare with what could possibly happen with Kirkby, I was also pointing out that the club should do the job properly or not at all. You should also note that Waverly was not built to plan which explains some of the missing facilities. If Everton/Tesco build this stadium on the cheap or without certain facilities and infrastructure then the stadium will be in big trouble from the start. By the sounds of what people are saying is that transport to Kirkby is limited and this will need to be greatly improved if Everton are going to build there stadium there.
Jamie Glassman
43   Posted 12/09/2007 at 01:54:53

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"Everton is Liverpool and nothing else."

There may be more to it than this but deep down I wonder if the antipathy towards moving to Kirkby is really about a fear of being taunted by Liverpool fans for no longer being in the city?

If this is the case, isn?t it time for Everton fans to stop caring about what their richer, plastic, American neighbours think of them and do what is best for themselves?

The City limits are an arbitrary line drawn up by bureaucrats years ago. Anyone who insists that Everton stays within this line for the sake of it needs to stop caring about how others perceive them.
Gary Sedgwick, Ex-Pat Texan
44   Posted 12/09/2007 at 02:57:05

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Quote:

and again with the states the majority of the new stadiums were built to host the world cup in 1992

Wasn’t the World Cup played in 1994? As for the new stadia, well there were none. All were established venues. Search Wikipedia for that year’s WC for details.

Quote:

The City limits are an arbitrary line drawn up by bureaucrats years ago. Anyone who insists that Everton stays within this line for the sake of it et al

I lived in Miami for a short time. Pro-Player Stadium/Joe Robbie Stadium is many, many miles from downtown Miami, it is not even in the same county as the city of Miami, but the stadium fills out for the Dolphins almost every game. True, there is only one local NFL team, but there is an abundance of other sporting teams who save the Marlins have stadia much closer to, or in, the city; Panthers (NHL), Marlins (MLB), Heat (NBA) and the Hurricanes NCAA).

All vie for business and support - all receive it. Why? I do not know but would suggest that each team’s loyal followers choose to watch them no matter where their "home" is.

Similarly the situation with the TB Lightening (NHL). A then struggling team the "franchise" were built a custom ice hockey stadium by the city of Tampa. They relocated from St. Petersburg a good 40 minute drive away (I know I lived there too). Attendances remained high and they won the NHL Championship soon after. Since then - they have won naught but attendances remain high. I would presume that people that went to St. Pete’s from Tampa and vice versa after the move still attend. Status Quo. Local support make/made up the remainder. Status Quo.

"Franchise" is a term I would apply to the now MK Dons in the UK. They uprooted without fully consulting their followers - done deal. Similarly with NFL teams here, Raiders, Rams and Ravens come to mind.

What our club did, regardless of whether you agree with the result or not (and that has been discussed ferverently and is not the point of this post), was to give a select group of Evertonians a chance to vote. That alone should be commended.

Kirkby? I am neither pro or anti move. I follow Everton. I have many fond memories of the "Grand Old Lady" but for me that is what they are - treasured for sure. Will I still follow Everton at Kirkby or wherever? For sure and for hopefully more treasured memories to come.
robert carney
45   Posted 13/09/2007 at 21:03:58

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Lats all face a few facts.

Kirkby sounds a great location for going to the match by car.

Truth is there will be very few parking spaces. Park and ride from Aintree racecourse is the carpark planned.

Public transport is a no go-er (ask Merseyravel for a copy of their report). The proposed tram to and from the city centre has been scrapped as to all devolopment money going to fund the Olympics in 2012.

The present trains of three carraiges will not sustain 35,000 to 50,000 attending the games.

9000 further car spaces will not be available on match days, these are exclusive to the retail park.

Kirkby residents are far from in favour. A demo lastweek proved this. Public meetings are getting more and more concerned as facts are beginning to emerge.

State of the art stadia. At no time has any proposals, details come forward other than an artist impression which anyone with an half decent computer can draw(it is interesting that the yes camp accuse other party’s of this yet the club have come up with sweet FA).

one last scenario, Southgate, the Middlesborough manager complained last week about supporters not turning up when there are 60 pubs showing the game locally. We all know by now that they moved to a soulless retail and industrial area.
Is this not a warning to any proposed move to Kirkby?
Bethany Wilkes
46   Posted 14/09/2007 at 03:02:33

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Michael, I totally agree with your article and love that I support such a great footy team with great fans like yourself.
Tom Davies
47   Posted 14/09/2007 at 15:25:24

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I personally will not be happy until Keith Wyness leaves Everton and Bill Kenwright has either seen sence or sold the club to someone who can do something for the fans.

I am so angry and feel so helpless because the club will only talk to tesco and no one else. We must search every possibility with more effort before we give in to tesco and this so called oppertunity of a life time!

I do not think our club will feel the same if we leave, and we will lose our status as the peoples club because this move only benefits people with money!
stevie b
48   Posted 24/11/2007 at 11:52:47

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