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From the latest consultation at Kirkby...

By Tom  Hughes :  20/11/2007 :  Comments (53) :

This was posted on the People's Forum and the KEIOC forum. They are direct responses to someone who was there from the consultant present, not my words I should add:

"* The MSCP is still there (well according to the man I spoke to at the show) just to the north-east of the Cheap and Nasty Stadium. It has 1,000 spaces all allocated for players, corporate, the board and match-day employees.

* The 3,500 retail car park will be just for retail only and football supporters will be fined at 'least £100' to deter supporters from parking there.

* No improvement to the rail line at Kirkby. Cost for the improvement needed, he said will be approx £25million, cannot be justified for the 19 occasions the stadium in the retail park is used per year. The most the station can cope with in one hour is 4,000 spectators.

* Approx 3% of season ticket holders being from Kirkby. This equates to 750 people walking to the ground.

* The entire road system in Kirkby will be covered by a residents parking permit scheme to stop illegal parking.

* All cars (apart from shoppers, those using the MSCP and those with the residents permits) will not be allowed into Kirkby. The closest they will get are the industrial estates around the town. Spectators will then be bussed into the ground.

* The problem with attending football matches at the stadium is NOT before the match but AFTER the match. He maintains that the club has to get everyone to their cars within one hour, people will not stand being messed around if it's any longer and will not be enticed back.

Now translating all the above and into how many busses will be needed to take everyone who has gone by car back to their cars is this:

Assuming 50000 capacity reached in any one game and includes 5000 away supporters (10% of capacity).

50,000 capacity
minus 5,000 away supporters (all arriving by coach)
minus 3,500 corporate
sub total 41,500 home supporters

minus 1,245 local walk ups (3% projection local to Kirkby)
minus 4,000 for the train
total 36,255

Two journeys made by one bus in the hour after the final whistle:

36255/2 bus journeys/80 seater bus = 227 buses that will be needed!"

Reader Comments

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Barry Bragg
1   Posted 21/11/2007 at 00:01:01

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Looks like there should be plenty of demand for the coach firms to start running soccer specials to Kirkby. If they go from Waton we should all be able to enjoy a few scooops in our usual watering holes beforehand. Also I think with the ground on their doorstep the Kirkby blues will make up a greatr than 3% walk up and of course if the demand is there local private car parks will start to spring up in the most unlikely of places. In fact I am sure the price of derelict land in Kirkby is already starting to rocket. Where there is a will there is a way eh.
Lee Spargo
2   Posted 21/11/2007 at 05:12:36

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What a load of absolute shite. Just as if the club and the council would let this project go ahead with such access problems which would lead to safety concerns.

I?m sorry, but I stopped listening to KEIOC a long time ago.
Tom Hughes
3   Posted 21/11/2007 at 06:21:10

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You cab’t put it any plainer than in numbers. What you should be asking is how does that compare to Goodison or the Loop, but I think you already know the answer. As far as the council letting this go unnoticed, they haven’t applied for planning permission yet. If you further extrapolate these figures upto 75,000 you end up with a figure of over 300. I doubt there is anything like this surplus in Merseytravel bus fleet..... not to mention drivers.
Dave Wilson
4   Posted 21/11/2007 at 05:47:50

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Tom Hughes

Terrific work, well researched, well delivered. Parking and accesibility has been one of the selling points of this whole Kirkby shambles. its also been key to people dismissing alternative sites.
Huge gaping holes are beginning to appear in the hollow promise that this is the "deal of the century" Think anyone at the club will challenge your figures ? dont hold your breath,
Thousands of people stuck in the retail park for hours, what on earth will we do ? ? ?
We could always ask Tesco Terry ! ! !
Fair play to him not only does he get us out to his retail park, he locks us in ! genius !
It must be really difficult for him to keep a straight face when he deals with Pinky + Perky
Tom Hughes
5   Posted 21/11/2007 at 06:47:03

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It’s not my work. two different people went to the consultation and asked the pertinent questions regarding transport and parking. They have both reported their findings on the people’s forum, and they both came to the same conclusions. How anyone can think this is going to be more convenient than GP is beyond me. The 1000 car parking places will be reserved for staff and executives. NO parking for ordinary fans is anticipated on site. The requirement for car parking spaces could be as high as 10,000 cars at 4 people per car, given the poor level of public transport. Of course this was flagged up months ago by KEIOC but they were simply derided for it, but once again as with the stadium costs it would appear the figures don’t stack up at all. Finding hundreds of spare buses in a deregulated system, even with private coach companies sounds more than fancifull. What will these companies start doing when hardly anyone turns up for a midweek league cup game, and they have got drivers on overtime with no passengers? They will soon lose interest..... if they exist in those numbers at all! People queuing to get on buses to go their cars to queue again to get out of a car park....... every game will be like an away game. How many thousands do we normally take away 2-5,000? As far as more Kirkby people taking up the gauntlet, there are only a few hundred at present. That wouldn’t even fill the front row. These numbers are not even close!!!
Chris Taggart
6   Posted 21/11/2007 at 08:03:02

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How much on site parking do we have at goodison i would say cetainly no more than 1000 at the park end.

How many satalite car parks do we have at least 5

Look at old trafford they have a significant number of car parking spaces attached to the site yet they have satalite car parks streching back almost to the trafford centre

How many farms,schools, industrial units, other car parks will be made available by private buisnisses?

I see nothing wrong with park and ride as providing carparking for a significant number of fans attached to the stadium is just a waste

It currently takes me anywhare between 90 mins to 2 hours to get out of the carparks at goodison and back to my front door in speke used to take even longer on the bus depending whether i went the county road way which meant a change at paradise street or the queens drive route where the busses dont stop

didnt deter me from attending

barry i think yove got it spot on mate and i can imagine the winslow and others offering booze busses to and from their establisments

But its much more simpler for opponents to the scheme to judge transport to the place based upon current opperations
Tom hughes
7   Posted 21/11/2007 at 08:33:39

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Chris, i used to live in Speke.... the 81 does stop at Walton Hall avenue. or you can get any number of buses to South parkway/Hunts Cross or in and out of town, and any train at all to Sandhills and soccerbus(when its open) . I don’t recognise your problems getting away from the ground at all. Try parking on the westmister road side of the ground, we’re away in mins if we go by car, mates have been doing it for decades, although I mostly go by bus. If you want I can show you several good specs on that side of the ground. Doesn’t the 21 go straight through town to County Rd anymore direct from Speke? You can’t just say we can do this or that if the numbers don’t add up. There are simply not hundreds of spare buses/drivers to make this dream come true, as far as old trafford is concerned it’s only a couple of miles from the city centre, like GP is now, therefore the density of bus/tram routes that can be used in both directions give much higher transport capacity than Kirkby. There isn’t a comparison to be made, the locations couldn’t be more different. I’m sure many of us would struggle to get anywhere to watch our team, but it doesn’t mean everyone would otherwise we would have 30,000 applications for every away game. Kirkby can never be as convenient as GP, and nothing like as easy to get to for the majority as the Loop site. I worked there for years, it can be a nightmare!!
Chris Briddon
8   Posted 21/11/2007 at 09:06:23

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Your analysis forgets a few important points though.

Firstly, the Kirkby figures are only season ticket holders, there may be more supporters from Kirkby on a normal match day.

Also yuo forgot to take into account the 20 + coaches that turn up anyway bringing supporters from outside Liverpool. There are always loads parked up by Stanley Park and a good number of these are home supporters.

Also, look around Goodison at present. How many official car parks are there not many), how many people want to leave their cars on the road side (not many). These fiugres aren?t any different from Goodison - in fact I would say 1000 spaces is much more than in the car park at the Park End.
William Robert Fletcher
9   Posted 21/11/2007 at 09:18:01

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Tom Hughes the 21 has not gone to Speke for the last 2 years. Also the Merseytram will be up and running in 3 years. I was at the consultation/presentation and the transport proposals look very good indeed, including the alterations to the motorway junction. Also alterations to the train track and station have not been ruled out. Have a look at Merseytravels website and their future plans..
Tom Hughes
10   Posted 21/11/2007 at 09:24:18

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Chris, the point is less people need cars at GP cos there are far more direct bus services and trains serving it, and because it is only 2 miles from the city centre and a mainline station. In this environmentally aware era we are not supposed to be encouraging greater car use, and in anycase Liverpol has the lowest car ownership of any provincial city. One third of our season ticket holders come from the Wirral, there is no dierect service for them at all to Kirkby. Season ticket holders make up something like 2/3 of our support, therefore even with non season ticket kirkby match-goers this would be less than 1,000. As far as coaches of Evertonians are concerned. i doubt they are anymore than 20, and even if full this wouldn’t be more than 1000 people, therefore we would be moving to Kirkby for a tiny minority who wouldn’t fill the paddock numerically. There is also the school’s car park, and a far more extensive myriad of streets and small parking areas in this much tighter street network than Kirkby’s garden suburb estates. Liverpool are even talking about going to 75,000+ based on the local infrastructure, and have already gained planning permission for at least a 60k capacity. You are also forgetting that these stadia have worked for obver 100 years and are tried and tested...... Kirkby struggles every rush hr to clear a few hundred cars from it’s industrial estate, and has never been tested in this way, hence the reliance on a park and ride from within the M57.
Chris Taggart
11   Posted 21/11/2007 at 09:05:01

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Im not saying there arnt bus stop?s its that because of the sheer voulme of passengers i.e full buses they tended not to stop in my experience, its a bit of a moot point for me now as i prefer taking the car and dont really mind the time taken in travel, when i lived in lytham it took even longer,

you say there isnt a comparrison to be made its a bit chicken and egg isnt it?

Resources, extra drivers, soccer bus,rail will be simmply transplanted, as presumably the current public transport demand on everton match days will not be required locally, however i do take the point about established routes

but surley its about the gap between the current extra services already provided and what will be required

as for car parking you cant discount the effect comercial park and ride will undoubtedly have which will impact upon your math, just to be clear if your math is 100% accurate there are a number of ways that the provision of buses can be financed and achived

the people not standing being messed arround is just nonscence and roughly translates as i wont be able to step out of the ground and into the winslow in my oppinion

A significant section of our support using that example are currently being messed around and have been for some time yet we still have an avearge attendance of 35k

Tom Hughes
12   Posted 21/11/2007 at 09:37:23

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William, I was on the design team for Merseytram with Balfour Beatty rail projects..... I haven’t heard anything from my former colleagues to suggest they are to be remobilised, although there was some speculation about the airport line rather than the Kirkby one. Also, the shortfall is still far too dramatic to make Kirkby better than walton or the Loop, which in anycase will be at the other end of any proposed tramline of course. You say you went to have a look, have you read the consultant’s outline? These are his data. New station or not (and he said not), there is no extra capacity to be gained from an end of line station. regardless of what you have seen pictorally there is no comparison between these sites...... next to no-one needs to park and ride at Goodison, they’ll be doing it in there tens of thousands in Kirkby, if you own a car that is. The rest will have to try the bombay express!!! People might stomach that for one-offs, we all have, but every week?
Michael Tracey
13   Posted 21/11/2007 at 08:16:38

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Yes the more info we get the worse Kirkby gets! I would be surprised if this gets of the ground. The propaganda police will be on here soon, so I’m sure that they will have all the anwers (not)! Well done again Tom for giving us these details.
Tom Hughes
14   Posted 21/11/2007 at 09:49:35

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Chris, the current "matchday demand" is taken up by scheduled bus services which are running anyway. Merseytravel barely muster up a few extras for the soccerbus. Gone are the days when there were hundreds of surplus buses in the system, deregulation and increased car ownership has done for that. There used to be a bus station in walton with lines of special buses on matchdays, similarly in town. These don’t exist anymore. I get the bus from Woolton every match, sometimes via town sometimes the drive, you are much nearer the terminus of the bus I get, and I always get on, but I understand your preference for driving, we all like are convenience. If I go by car we always park near the Old Bill or St John the Baptist. We always get away in no time at all, and in 30 odd years of doing so have never suffered vandalism. (lucky maybe). I am making valid comparisons here based on years of attending GP, and what the consultant has said, and my experience of working in Kirkby. The figures presented indicate that Kirkby would represent a significantly increased level of inconvenience, I don’t think anyone could argue with that. Less han 1 in 10 blues regularly go to the aways, you can’t base your predictions of attendance on their level of dedication because only a minority are diehards.
Chris Taggart
15   Posted 21/11/2007 at 10:14:18

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Tom if we take the figure of 36000.00 as absolute, a comercial firm charging 3.00 return for transport to/from the park and ride gives over 2mil in potential turnover for 19 home games add european matches , cup ties etc and ther is enough potential revenue there over the years to make it work , improve infastructure etc, now factor in the revenues for parking?

you highlight the govenments car reduction policythis will also affect matchday parking arround goodison ,was talk last season of the council reducing overall parking in the area, yet criticise the new build which conforms to this policy,

i am afraid you cant have it both ways, inconvinenced if we stay or if we move

it may well be ripping off the band aid will be the best option rather than taking it off slowly if you know what i mean

Chris Riley
16   Posted 21/11/2007 at 10:51:14

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Chris Taggart, there is only one fantasist here and it is you!

You are telling me you dont get home until 6-30 to 7pm after the match? (providing we have a rare 3 o’clock kick off on a saturday)

I live 60 miles away and am often back home within an hour of getting to the car, unless it is a saturday early kick off, in which case i get stuck in the shoppers traffic.

Cant wait to get stuck in the traffic after early kick offs at kirkby! (biggest supermarket development in the northwest i hear)
chris taggart
17   Posted 21/11/2007 at 11:28:02

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meant to say between 1 hour and 90mins, my bad
Andy Mckenzie
18   Posted 21/11/2007 at 11:38:32

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Well would you believe it, the kirkby tescosuperdrome is FLAWED,(shock/horror).

as the days pass by the disgraceful kirkby project falls apart bit by bit.

plan b anyone?
Tom Hughes
19   Posted 21/11/2007 at 11:45:03

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Andy, I assume you are addressing that to the club. KW insists he has exhausted all the options, yet now we find it will cost us considerably more to go to Kirkby than to make GP hold the same capacity. He’s sitting in Plan B.... or is it really Plan A?
Andy Mckenzie
20   Posted 21/11/2007 at 11:53:41

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it really is quite unbelievable, the fact that we could not only re-develop goodison but also fund the loop with the same money as kirkby, i think it proves that wyness has a conflict of interests regarding this move.

Tom you’ve always stated that their are other options and finally were starting to see these options, not only for efc but for the residents of kirkby as well.

I sense the tide has finally turned and a lot more answers will come at the agm in a few weeks time
Tom hughes
21   Posted 21/11/2007 at 11:50:47

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Chris, If you’re only going to talk of 36,000 why are we moving at all??? However, at 50 people a coach..... that’s hundreds of coaches/buses.... where are they coming from, are they going to be there for a Tuesday night against Darlington in the league cup? I’m not trying to have anything both ways, just decribing the way public transport works in single focal point cities like Liverpool. The city centre has a capacity of over 200,000 passengers per hr and has over 100,000 every rush hr. By the time you get just 2 miles out of town this capacity has diminished to about 1/10th of that, such is the nature of the simple logistics of our city’s layout. by the time you get out to Kirkby/Speke/Huyton or any other peripheral housing estate it’s down to only a few thousand. Furthermore the arterial routes that feed the city centre, like the spokes of a wheel are still quite closely linked at Walton (County Road, Walton Lane, Priory, Stanley Road, and the inner circular) allowing convergence from all directions. by the time you get out to Kirkby there’s only acouple of dual carriageways feeding the area from the main connurbation, and they have a big seperation and in the case of the east Lancs are already well used. In otherwords there are significantly bigger numbers wanting to travel in the same direction before and after..... how can this possibly be better than the more central site?
David Kenton
22   Posted 21/11/2007 at 12:03:08

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What an adventure the board have in store for us: every game an away game!

Just on the issue of parking, I spoke to a Celtic supporter who?s a season ticket holder at Celtic Park, he recounts how many Celtic supporters have to use The Forge retail park opposite CP on matchdays because of resident permits. Their usual ruse to avoid a massive fine from tickets issued by the private cowboys running security at The Forge is to rummage around for discarded retail receipts from on site stores.

That?ll be a cracking little earner for the security firm getting the gig at the Tesco Town project.

What a shambles this would be if it came off.
Ian Pilkington
23   Posted 21/11/2007 at 12:05:54

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As a "No" voter I have always taken comfort from the fact that the Kirkby project would fail due to simple transport logistics, as proven in your article. It is quite astonishing that the EFC board have managed to overlook this problem.

Ian Pilkington

Lee Spargo
24   Posted 21/11/2007 at 12:29:26

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nothing has been ’proven’ here. the fact is that nobody knows what will happen, since that amounts to predicting the future. If anybody on here can do that then please give me your phone number. There are six numbers that i’d like to know for this Staurday.

As I said earlie, I stopped listening to KEIOC some time ago. I have faith in EFC and the Council to put the transport infrastructure in place.

Haven’t we already been told that this will be the best-accessed stadium in the North of England?
Chris Taggart
25   Posted 21/11/2007 at 12:35:33

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Tom i took your figure of 36,255 needing park and ride as absolute,and rounded it down i could have said 9000 cars to make it clearer, i apologise

but if you are talking of the majority of the fan base as park and ride then it is clear that you are not going to have or need a 200+ fleet

smaller busses with shorter runs which would also alow for a staged car park exit rather than en mass

the hour disbersal time is abitary , and i would hazard a guess that no premiership ground is like that
Andy Mckenzie
26   Posted 21/11/2007 at 12:45:59

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Wyness told us that but the post up top by tom proves that its flawed, and its not the only thing about it thats flawed.

the designs flawed, the locations flawed, the funding issue is flawed and the transport side of it is flawed, still i suppose its good enough for efc.
Lee Spargo
27   Posted 21/11/2007 at 12:53:17

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flawed according to what though?


The figures in the original post?

It’s all a point of faith isn’t it? Who do you beleive?

I’ve made my choice. I’ll stick to it. Sorry if you dont like it. That’s just tough. Dont go anymore if it bothers you that much. Go and watch Liverpool. You’ll still be able to drink in the Winslow then and casually walk up to the ground. I’ll be on my way to Kirkby ater having a few in town.
Andy Mckenzie
28   Posted 21/11/2007 at 12:59:28

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lee i’ve got no problem with people who are still for the move mate, i respect you for that decision, its my own opinion and i think the majority of evertonians are now against kirkby imo, the more details we get the more farcical it gets, id expect you to stick up for what you believe in because you have a right to do so.
Mark Perry
29   Posted 21/11/2007 at 12:59:27

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Oh my God the sky is falling in - quick run!!!!!!

Wait for the facts gents, speculating on opinions and whispers will get us nowhere fast. Wait for the detailed plans to be unvailed before going appaplectic.
Ajamu Mutumwa
30   Posted 21/11/2007 at 12:44:57

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At last, an article which takes the debate a bit forward. Well done Tom.

As you know I am a yes supporter, but this article is good. Not the silver bullet that some may see it as. This is because Goerge Howarth MP has made it clear that if this is not addressed satisfactoriily he will want the scheme called in.

If not addressed to everyone’s satisfaction, the scheme will be dead.

The faultlines in the article (ony 3% Kirkby resident attending the match I see, in an area acknowledged as a hotbed of Everton support) does somewhat detract from a good article and weakens the "silver bullet".

Chris Halliday
31   Posted 21/11/2007 at 13:01:03

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I have been waiting for someone to post a report of parking/journey. A message to most of the die hard blues opposed to Tom?s report. We know you will travel by bus/car/ferry watever to Kirby. But that is not the point. Not all fans (even EFC) would. I myself am a floating supporter, i live in L13 and GP is easy for me to attend. I to would go to Kirby no probelm, but if that means i will have to drive or public transport, to a remot area, across a bloody motorway,(which it is), i may have second thoughts on some games and I am more than sure other fans will. What about the young supporters, 14, 15 or 16 going to night matches in Kirby, how do they get to the game?? To far out of the mainstream location of LCC. I just can?t wait until we get the ground now so that we will have 10m a year extra and champions league football (what a laugh)
Jim Johnson
32   Posted 21/11/2007 at 13:35:03

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Chris Tagget
Two hours from GP ???
I now live in N/hampton, but since the toll Rd was built I get home after home games in time to get me lottery ticket
Try Parking Wessie Rd, go down to the bottom of the valley, then along Nertherfield rd, then turn at Collegiate College, WATCH FOR THE CAMERA NEAR THE GRAFTON, get on the Drive just before 62, failing that, try taking the handbrake off
Tom hughes
33   Posted 21/11/2007 at 13:55:02

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Wyness told us it would be costing us "Practically nothing" he has now had to admit it will cost much more than that. He then went on about accessibility to millions of latent blues in the lancashire countryside and beyond. He obviously hasn’t heard of the other"big" clubs sharing his broad catchment. Then the transport consultants spill the beans again..... this stadium will be more difficult to get to than Goodison for the majority of our supporters. It really is as simple as that! I ask anyone to put something together to disprove that!! Do you believe Wyness, and if so which one, the pre-vote Wyness or the more recent one....? cos he’s told two stories!
chris taggart
34   Posted 21/11/2007 at 14:14:15

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jim, if you read my latter posts i have corrected my error,

However notice that you use the toll instead of the m6 proper why would that be? I presume you used the M6 prior to the toll ?

I presume the toll was built due to the volume of traffic using the m6?

therfore increased traffic leads to better infastructure just as increased traffic in kirkby will ultimatley lead to better infastructure there will it not?

Simon Hughes
35   Posted 21/11/2007 at 14:19:47

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Thanks Tom, this is the kind of analysis that might start to turn the heads of even the YES voters.

We travel from Sheffield every game and the idea of a park and ride before and after the game is a complete non-starter. Currently we park in the streets near the ground , have a few pints and are back on our way home straight after. A park and ride at say Aintree racecourse would add at least 2 hours to the journey.
Tom Hughes
36   Posted 21/11/2007 at 14:33:51

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Chris said:
"therfore increased traffic leads to better infastructure just as increased traffic in kirkby will ultimatley lead to better infastructure there will it no"

Not for a fortnightly event venue. It is not cost effective. You’re trying to compare the busiest section of motorway in the country with a cul de sac in North Merseyside! It will not shift Liverpool’s public transport network focus from its centre to Kirkby neither. The city’s layout and the way it works will not change just for Everton!!!
Karl Masters
37   Posted 21/11/2007 at 14:32:59

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I travel from Kent and it’s a long enough journey what with the M25, M1 & M6 prone to delays. The saving grace is that I can park in Stanley Park and walk 10 minutes to Goodison.

Parking up in some Park & Ride miles away and crawling through traffic to Kirkby or having to go into Liverpool city centre and be bussed, trammed, railed or whatever out to Kirkby and doing the reverse trip after the match is the kind of nonsense that will put me off. I’ll still attend some games and I don’t mind a bit of hassle ( was in Nuremberg )for the big games, but for some of the others I might not bother.

What I can’t see is for all the occasions where people then don’t attend, how the Club expect more people to suddenly appear. Goodison is easy to get to. Kirkby will be harder so why will more people want to go? OK, there will be less restricted views and easier to get the catering, but this is offset by tthe fact you can watch all the best bits of the match in a nice 1 hour package on Sky called Football First. That is very easy and a great alternative if the prospect of getting there is too daunting.

Also when I first started going to Liverpool to watch Everton when I was 15 I could get a bus to GP from Lime St. Now, it would take hours and too much cash as a kid to go to Knowsley on a bus I fear. I think a lot of local kids will not go due the trouble of getting there especially midweek and may well end up at Anfield.

This has got to be re-thought. Oh and the design is crap too. Must not forget that either!
Chris Taggart
38   Posted 21/11/2007 at 15:01:19

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i think even my small brain can get round the fact that ther is a significant revenue stream to be had per car based on your figures of 9000 cars even over 19 weeks + if those revenues can be directed into infastructure it is more than adaquate to provide decent transport links

meanwhile warren bradly is chasing after a horse called NWDA last seen running towards the loop shouting "I bolted the stable door honest"

Mike Rowthwell
39   Posted 21/11/2007 at 15:13:11

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Where did this figures come from? Are they just guesstimate are properly researched estimates. I'm particularily interested in the figure for less away support and less corporate.
Simon Hughes
40   Posted 21/11/2007 at 16:31:37

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from the original poster on the KEIOC forum:

Here are answers to the points posed;

* Getting to Kirkby - the only way you can get there are by train, bus, walk or car. Trains will only take 4000 per hour, the walk up figure is taken from the clubs database as admitted by the suit man of 3%, ie 750 season tickets holders.. I have projected that 3% for the 50000 capacity stadium. You will not be able to park other than in car parks provided and then you either walk to the stadium or get a ?club? bus.

* The 20+ coaches bring home supporters to the ground only equates to approx 1000 people, plus those coaches need somewhere to park also.

* No one be able to park kerb side in Kirkby without a permit. All householders in Kirkby will need a permit.

* The Kirkby line will not have £25million spent on it just for 19 games of football and as such it has been ruled out.

* The run for the bus to the car park will be in the order of 20mins, that includes departing from the stadium and arriving at the car park.

* Don?t forget what he told me is that the problem is not getting to the match, it is going home after the match. From his experience people need to be well on their way home within one hour of the final whistle. The more people that are delayed et al the more likely they will not attempt to go again to the match.
Neil McKinney
41   Posted 21/11/2007 at 17:58:02

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Tom - thanks for posting the info, and thanks to whoever had the inclination to ask the questions.

However, I will point out that much of this will be addressed throughout the planning process and it may actually lead to the project being binned (which I’m sure will please many).

Having watched the Birmingham game from the back row of the Upper Bullens, I just hope that we can make something work somewhere. I am proud to be an Evertonian, I am proud of our history, our fans and the atmosphere at GP. However, purely as a place to watch football, I am no longer proud of GP. I had a great day on that Saturday, Carsley’s goal sent the Bullens mad just like the rest of the ground, but when asked "how was the game" I felt it necessary (after waxing lyrical about the great win) to mention that I would baulk at paying £33 again to sit in that piece of shit stand. New Park End, somebody said on this site a few weeks ago, do the toilets out and Bob’s yer uncle, he continued. Do me a fucking favour!
Eugene Ruane
42   Posted 21/11/2007 at 17:52:03

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I was reading all the opinions on this transport issue and saw a line from a chap named Lee Spargo,

Lee wrote..

??I have faith in EFC and the Council to put the transport infrastructure in place??.

Given that view, I have a question.

Do other posters to this thread think it is safe for me to let it slip, that a certain portly, white-bearded gentleman of Greenland? doesn?t really exist?

I?d hate to ruin anyone?s Christmas (especially someone so innocent)
Chris Taggart
43   Posted 21/11/2007 at 19:28:37

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Don't forget Eugene lees talking about KMBC not LCC

Tescos are having a car park for the enabling development think they will be able to put a few roads and bus stops

Again the magical 1 hour total disbursal is a total misnomer and dare i say it the original post from the KEIOC forum is tainted with a particular bias

the inference that the stadium is going to be dropped from a great height into the middle of a field or magiked there by st nick without proper consideration to how people are going to get to and from it is as ludicrous as the negative view that billy and bully are only in it to line their pockets, however where this argument falls down is how would they be able to profit from a failed (KEIOC view) development?

Failures don?t make money they lose it ,if billy and bully where mercenary profiteers then surely selling GP to the RS would be their first move
Brian Waring
44   Posted 21/11/2007 at 19:50:15

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You also have to take into consideration,that along with football fans making there way into Kirkby,you are going to have the shoppers who will visit the retail park.
Lee Spargo
45   Posted 21/11/2007 at 21:58:23

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We could talk about faith all night couldn’t we?

Do you beleive in God? I certainly do. So o the majority of the population of this Earth, without any proof of existence. Do you think we’re all deluded?

I trust the club and Knowlsey Council to progress this project in the correct manner - and that includes sorting out an adequate transport infrastructure. That was my point.

Santa, and KW aren’t the same are they? Unless i’ve missed something.
Eugene Ruane
46   Posted 22/11/2007 at 10:28:53

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You ask "Do you beleive in God?" (his spelling!)


You also ask "Do you think we?re all deluded?"

God believers?


100% deluded!

As for the Everton-BK-KW side of things, you remind me of those women who no matter how many times their insane husbands batter the shlte out of them, they tell the world (through fat bleeding lips) "He?s a good man, he didn?t mean it, he won?t do it again"

It?s one of the frustrations of life that those with no imagination or foresight will never know that they have no imagination or foresight.

I DO realise I?m pi$$ing in the wind and for a lot of the time, I keep my opinions to myself.

However, every now and and then (like when I read how trustworthy Everton are) I have to say something.

I?ll get back under my rock now and leave you and those like you to Kirkby-Tesco-Wyness etc
John Crawley
47   Posted 22/11/2007 at 12:20:05

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The most important point from all of this is surely that the Club need to attract more floating supporters in order to get 55,000 crowds to help generate extra income. To do that, surely you have got to make it easy to get to and from the ground. If its not easy to travel to and from the ground then people will be reluctant to go again.
The die hard supporters will turn up wherever the ground is but unfortunately Everton need the floating supporter. Now compare that to Goodison which has the following: -
1) one of the quickest disperal times of any premiership ground.
2) two railway stations within a mile of the ground.
3) Dozens of different bus routes servicing the ground.
4) A proven ability to cope with transporting of 50,000 plus people.
5) Main line train station within 2 miles.
6) 9 different ’A’ roads within a half a mile radius of the ground.

If that isn’t enough there is going to be the addition of a new railway station and other improved transport links that are going to happen because Liverpool will be building a larger capacity stadium.
If you really want to be worried about transport just look at another football ground built on a retail park - the Reebok Stadium and how long it takes to get to and from the ground on match days.
Lee Spargo
48   Posted 22/11/2007 at 13:00:25

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You’ve crawled back under your rock, for now. Until it all kicks off again in a couple of weeks when somebody else comes up with some ’figures’.
Jim Johnson
49   Posted 22/11/2007 at 13:36:42

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Chris Taggart

so is it A toll rd from Kirkby your advocating ?
by the way before the B/ham toll rd I used the train, try doing that from Kirkby
Dave Wilson
50   Posted 23/11/2007 at 06:34:17

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The difference between Santa + KW ?
simple, even the most innocent of children wouldnt by KW’s story
51   Posted 23/11/2007 at 06:56:04

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The Tesco spokeswoman says that talks with Everton and Knowsley Council have been going on for 2 years, it really doesn?t seem that long.
Lee Spargo
52   Posted 23/11/2007 at 12:36:55

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Dave, but most of us adults HAVE. That’s why the vote resulted in a ’YES’.

Face it, you’re in a minority, and you dont like it.
Jim Johnson
53   Posted 23/11/2007 at 13:02:06

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must be really uncomfortable for you now , being exposed being so gullible. Hate to do this to you mate but you may as well find out now.
Santa doesnt exist either

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