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Back to Reality Again

By Tony Marsh :  09/01/2008 :  Comments (99) :
After Saturday's defeat against Oldham I decided not to blame Moyes or the players for the result .I put it down to "shit happens in the FA Cup" and we had one eye on last night and paid the price. As for last night well that a completely different story.

I posted 2 weeks ago saying we are scared of the big boys when we play them and we tend to fuck up or shit our kecks in the face of the big 4. Is there still anyone left who doubts what I said now after last night's pathetic surrender?

Before we go on, let's get one thing straight here: we were not playing Chelsea, we were playing Chelsea reserves and they had 10 men for 40 minutes. FFS what was Moyes thinking about trying to come away with a 1-1 draw? Did he learn nothing from Old Trafford last month?

I knew Chelsea would score once I realised we were intent on sitting back and defending the result with 20 minutes still left to play. Moyes will never change that much is obvious now. When Yakubu scored to make it 1-1 we had a real chance to go on and win the game but NO that's not the Moyes way is it?

When a team are there for the taking we always, always let them off the hook. WHY? Moyes is a coward, that's why. He hasn't got the belief in himself or his team to try and push on and beat the big boys. He is scared of them and what might happen if he tries so we sit back and get fucked [again].

Don't think for a moment that the likes of Harry Redknapp would have ordered his team to sit back and defend last night, Stamford Bridge or not. Go for the jugular and try and get the win is what he would have done. Our manager is too reserved, too conservative and too afraid to try the unexpected. This is why we always fail because the other managers know Moyes will go in to his shell whenever the game is a close one. That usually results in us losing in the dying seconds. It happens too often now not to be true.

As for excuses this time around, well I dont think there are any valid ones, do you? The Referee was fine, it wasn't windy or too sunny and we had very few injuries compared to Chelsea. So tell me were does the fault lie this time after yet another pitiful capitulation?

It makes me sick to think how close to Wembely we could be if only the manager could have been bit bolder and shown more bottle in this crunch game.

Trying to defend against 10 men when they are on the ropes and shattered. What kind of game plan is that FFS?

Moyes is a dud manager and the Wheels are well and truly off as far as this season goes. Don't for one minute think we can turn this tie around when we will have to chase the game at Goodison Park. Moyes's record against Chelsea stinks and I dont see it getting any better next week.

The golden chance was there for the taking last night. Never again will we be presented with such an easy opportunity to beat Chelsea in a cup game. The all now too familiar sight of the Tortoise retreating in to its shell will haunt me forever.

No bottle, no leadership, no class are just a few of the more printable things I can say about our manager but, please, come on and tell me I am wrong as yet another season starts to disappear down the shitter.

I know we went on this fantastic unbeaten run before Christmas but don't let it confuse you with us being able to beat quality sides when it matters as we can't. Sunderland and Derby County... we can beat them but so what?

The real big test for us so far this season has come in the last two weeks and we have failed miserably. We are now on a downward spiral at the wrong time of the year. The cups are over and done with for another year unless we win the Uefa Cup. Ha ha, so what's left?

I suppose those delusional fans of ours still think we can crack the big 4 if we go on another unbeaten run. As for me I can't wait to hear last nights pathetic bottle job being defended. Surely even the most ardent Moyes supporter is running out of excuses after yet more desperate football?

Excuses on a postcard please.

Reader Comments

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Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
1   Posted 09/01/2008 at 18:49:15

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I?m sorry, Tony, but there?s very little I can agree with here as for me you?ve gone off the deep end prematurely. We?re a goal down in a two-legged tie with an away goal; I think most of us would have taken that before yesterday?s game and, yes, the manner in which we lost hurts but heaping so much blame is out of order, in my opinion.

"We were playing Chelsea reserves and they had 10 men for 40 minutes"

You overlook two things here: 1) that even Chelsea Reserves could probably finish in the top four of the Premier League, such is their strength in depth, and 2)that we had our entire midfield inspiration missing in the form of Arteta, Pienaar and Osman. [Oh, and it was pretty windy, Tony.]

Additionally, we did capitalise on the fact that they were playing with 10 men but as so often happens in football, it often doesn?t make that much difference, particularly if the team with fewer players wants in badly enough (Everton 1-0 Blackburn or Tottenham 0-2 Everton from last season, anyone?). As we often see at Goodison, once a team gets its fans behind it and really wants to go for it, it's sometimes hard to resist the increasing pressure. We almost managed it last night.

"Go for the jugular and try and get the win is what he would have done."

The problem here is that you risk being exposed on the counter-attack and conceding a second or third goal. The gameplan for us was to keep it tight and ensure that the tie was still alive for the second leg after 90 minutes of the first. I wasn?t impressed with us for the first 55 minutes but it was an under-strength side and we did have them on the ropes after we equalised. If McFadden?s chance had gone five inches to the left, we might be talking about a fantastic win rather than lamenting what was, in my opinion, a bit of a freak goal in stoppage time.

I admire your passion, Tony, but I think you?re off-beam here. At least wait until after the second leg ? where we?ll have a full house under the lights at Goodison, not to mention players like Arteta back on the pitch ? before saying that the "wheels have come off the season".

Stuart Duncan
2   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:07:09

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Although I think Tony is well over the top, I have some sympathy for his point of view. To my mind, Yakubu’s lack of effort in the second half meant it was more like 10 against 10. I was screaming at the set for Moyes to bring big Vic on as he would have run their defence ragged.

Having said that, I was shouting for the change BEFORE we got the goal, so what do I know?

The truth I think is this. We could have withstood the loss of 3 players if they had been one each - attack, midfield & defence. But 3 midfielders is more than our squad could stand.

With Fernandes back, I don’t think we’re out of it yet.

David Barks
3   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:16:48

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Well said Lyndon. And now that Manny is back and Arteta will be back our midfield will be a completely different story. We will miss Yak and Yobo, but the two midfield additions will be massive. I was shattered, but we did get the away goal, now a 1-0 home win gets us to Wembley. Is that such a massive mountain Tony???
Peter Dunne
4   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:17:13

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I agree we have got no bottle against the big4!!!!! Chealsea last night had a make shift side that out played us the long ball down for the first goal was that not the same as Arsenals first?
and McFadden they should not wait for an approach they should pay to take away as with all crap
i am sick of supporting nearly rans I suppose I am unlucky because i have been a supporter since the60s
very dispirited
Ste Kenny
5   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:13:15

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The only way we could go for the jugular would be to bring another forward on, considering we already had 3 on the pitch that would have been ridiculous unless bringing gravesen on is going for the throat. and moyes would be blamed for tactical naivety. And they would have had the whole midfield to themselves, although in my opionion that is the only area we lacked as we all expected. Im happy with the result and the amount of chances we created
Eric Holland
6   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:38:07

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Some good points there Tony I have to agree we should have gone for the win, not sat back inviting pressure from 10 men. Also Yak was knacked and should have been replaced with Vic at about 75 min not 85 Hibbert showing his failings again and Neville still cant pass to his own team mates.
All the same I would have taken 2-1 before the match, just sick of Evertons inability to hold on when playing so called big 4.
Tony Williams
7   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:42:20

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"No bottle, no leadership, no class are just a few of the more printable things I can say about our manager but, please, come on and tell me I am wrong as yet another season starts to disappear down the shitter"

You are wrongYes we do seem to bottle it against the top 4, as do the other 16 teams each season.

Their "reserves" would walk into our team and the fact that Fadds was starting shows how bad our starting XI was also.

No creativity in the midfield so how exactly should we have gone for the jugular?

You are steady becoming the equivolent of a cartoon villain on her with you predictible outbursts and bile filled posts.

I would suggest you take a break from football for a while, as it seems you will only be happy when we are wining each game 5-0 with Brazil like skills.

Here?s a little tip for you, it ain?t ever gonna happen mate.
Alex Spelling
8   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:43:06

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Wright Philips, Joe Cole, Ballack, Mikel, Malouda, yeh Tony what a bunch of mugs, I doubt they would get into Derby’s team. And whats Haappy Harry got to do with it -how many semi finals has he been in recently?
Dave Jeanrenaud
9   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:52:24

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You don’t deserve the success that David Moyes is bringing to Everton Tony. You really don’t.



If you had your way we would be like Newcastle United because i can guarantee that if Moyes ever were to go (god forbid) then the next manager would not be good enough for you either.

I’m so glad i do not sit anywhere near you in the match. You must be intolerable.
Terry Maddock
10   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:35:33

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It's half time: in the Carling cup semi

Its half time: in the Premiership

It's halfway thru; the UEFA cup

We are 1 goal down at home with 90 mins to go ....

We are 4 points off a champions league spot..

We have a 100% group record and play the mighty FC Brann over two legs:

Yes Tony..things are truly awful....Although as I recall , nowhere near as bad as your early season predictions:

IE; Not gonna finish in the top 10

Out of Every cup by Christmas...yawn...boring, try something original...we lost to Chelsea, Man utd, and Arsenal..( reality check) so did everybody else....Bad result against Oldham..missed chances , 25 yard stunner, out of the cup.

Chelsea reserves..!!!!! over 100,000000 of reserves..

Unbeaten at home in 55 consecutive games..(two 1-1 draws with us included)

Arteta+ Pienaar+Osman = CREATIVITY

We dont have the funds to have two players of this quality in every position..we suffeed much more than Chelsea in terms of injury, ACON simply because there "reserve team" players would walk into most other premier leagues team easily.....

But you know that Tony dont you?

Lyndon says he admires your passion..!!

But why does that passion only rear its head when we dont win?

During our long unbeaten run..you have posted once ..to eat bit of humble pie sa you put it...

I suggest you get back in your box till May, then come out and either eat some more humble pie..or congratulate DM on his success in qualifying for Europe again, be that UEFA cup, Champions league, Carling cup win, or UEFa cup win...because at the moment ..all are well within our grasp..and with attractive football as well.....Your glass is always half empty Tony...always..its areal pity..because I believe 40,000 Tony Marshes turning all that passion into 90 minutes of screaming support for the team...well it could bring a result and a night like The Bayern Game 1985... Dare to dream...
Gary Hankey
11   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:57:24

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I agree with a lot of what Tony and Lyndon have said. My observation was that during the game we pulled level, we showed them absolutely no respect and bossed the game for long period even unlucky not to go ahead with Faddy’s effort. During that time Chelsea did look very ordinary so, we are capable of doing it. With more options in the middle of the park and either Jimmy V or Vic duffing up there defence in front of a noisey Goodison maybe, just maybe Moyesey can at last break his duck. We have to give them zero respect.
Tony Marsh
12   Posted 09/01/2008 at 20:08:10

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Terry Maddock everyone else doesnt lose to the big 4 mate.Take the past few weeks as an example.Reading beat Liverpool.Boro tonk Arsenal.Bolton beat the Mancs.West Ham beat the Mancs.Wigan draw at Anfield.Villa score 4 at Chelsea and are very unlucky.Hardly the picture you try to paint in your limp defence of the Golden One is it? />Bolton.West Ham,Wigan.Boro.
Paul McCann
13   Posted 09/01/2008 at 19:33:18

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The problem for me Tony wasn?t the lack of attacking football after the sending off, but the fact that we were played off the park by Chelsea before the sending off. We were really poor. Saying that, after the sending off I thought that for 25 minutes Chelsea were rocking [I know...10 men].

Following our performances against all of the top 3 sides in the last three weeks, I actually feel that we are about to turn what have been in parts decent performances into results. I just hope it happens in a fortnights time.

It seems to me that there are several regular contributers on ToffeeWeb who will fete Moyes after a string of good results, only to start calling for his head after a couple of defeats. Believe it or not, that?s what happens in football, somtimes you win, sometimes you lose. If you win more than you lose, you will be successful, if you steadily improve your win/loss ratio, you will be more successful. Like it or not, Moyes has been doing exactly that [save the yo-yoing]. He?s also started getting the side to play some decent stuff. Sometimes he does my head in too [Neville in midfield], but, in the round, he?s the best thing that has happened to this club in nearly twenty years.

The least people could do is wait until the season is over, or we?re knoked out of all the cups, before going in at the deep end.

I?ve just seen that Fernandes is back. If we sign him in the summer, tie up Pienaar, and sign a quality defensive midfielder, we will not be far away from breaking into the top 3.

Just to emphasise the point, here?s the Everton side that played Middlesborough in the FA Cup just before Walter Smith got the heave-ho:

Simonsen, Pistone, Stubbs, Weir, Unsworth, Clarke, Gascoigne, Gemmill (Blomqvist 73), Linderoth (Alexandersson 45), Radzinski, Moore (Chadwick 45). Subs Not Used: Gerrard, Cleland.

Now that is progress.
Ed Fitzgerald
14   Posted 09/01/2008 at 20:25:38

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Tony

Although I would disagree with much of what you said I would agree that it was a lack of tactical nous that cost us last night. We were very much second best for the vast majority of last night in every department. When we dId get a foothold in the game more by some good fortune more than a spell of good football, Moyes should have changed the shape of the team to give Grant and Chelsea something to think about. Neville and Carsley in midfield should never happen. For all his flaws Gravesen should have been used at some point. Yes Moyes has made huge strides forward as a manager this season but last night was an opportunity missed. For those who are slagging Yakubu and McFadden they at least provide a threat. It does not strike me as unfair to be critical of Moyes when he drops clangers like Oldham and misses a gilt edged opportunity like last night. I am not calling for Moyes to be sacked or anything daft, just that he learns from mistakes. Slagging Tony Marsh off for going over the top does not mean that Moyes is getting it right all the time or is beyond critical feedback.
Terry Maddock
15   Posted 09/01/2008 at 20:40:32

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Bolton.( we done the double)West Ham,(twice in a week)Wigan(same as the shite) Boro( another 6 points) so you want us to aspire to these teams...all below us...Thats great..lets go back to Big Dunc scoring the winner against the shite and the Mancs...and have all that lovely last day relegation excitement...really well thought out Tony..
OOhh...possible midfield in the second leg

Arteta, Ferdandes, Carsley,Osman(maybe) Cahill...AJ up front.....Neville right back,Jags and Lescott..Baines left back...

How does that sound Tony..season over?

Then to come back at the end of next month, Pienaar..The Yak, Yobo....Oh..its all doom and gloom.....
Glynne Moore
16   Posted 09/01/2008 at 20:18:11

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Well said Tony. Let’s chuck the towel in in the first week in January and write the whole season off. Brilliant idea that. You really do amaze me with the utter garbage you spout off whenever the going gets tough, you just can’t wait can you. It’s any excuse for you to get on your self imposed high horse and go on about how EFC are crap at this, crap at that, you just can’t wait can you. It’s total no marks like you who go the match that really piss me off. It’s as if you hate it when the club do well because you then have to go back under your stone and pray for the next slip up to crave the attention you obviously desire. I know you stated how wonderful life was during our unbeaten run, well you had to didn’t you.However, we all know the team is not the finished article by a long chalk, but things are getting better all of the time, but you need have a word with yourself. Here’s a novel idea, how about getting behind the team and act like a true supporter and not use this forum to act like a spolit little schoolboy who ball has burst. Grow up Tony, please.
Paul McCann
17   Posted 09/01/2008 at 20:46:01

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Ed,

Your right of course, Moyes is certainly not always right, in fact he is, in my opinion, very often wrong, but for Tony to say ’No bottle, no leadership, no class are just a few of the more printable things I can say about our manager but, please, come on and tell me I am wrong as yet another season starts to disappear down the shitter’ is absolutely ridiculous, for the reasons I’ve already given. Its not even as if he’s saying it in the heat of the moment.
Paul McCann
18   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:04:12

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Tony would you actually call for Moyes’ head?
Terry Maddock
19   Posted 09/01/2008 at 20:50:03

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Ed Fitzgerald:

I agree with a lot of what you said..but i belive we were second best for a lot of the game for one simply glaringly obvious reason...THEY ARE A MUCH BETTER SIDE THAN US..

Yes of course like ourselves(and themancs, shite arse etc) they will have "off days"..but simply because of the massive quality in the squad they are never"there for the taking"...We need to perform to the very best of our ability , just to match them...and to win we need to perform above our ability...last night , for most of the game we did not....But the gross and regular overreaction from Tony Marsh and his ilk is totally uncalled for..
Im not say be satisfied with losing to "The big 3"...just for a bit of a reality check...we have done and continue , to improve under David Moyes every season...And that is all we can ask..year after year improvement..
Unfortunately that improvement may not bring you trophies...this season we have a realistic chance of two....Im not stating we definately will win them..but we have a realistic chance..
We played badly, had most of our 1st choice midfield missing, and now get 90 minutes at home..with a better team ...to go thru...1-0 after extra time ..and its Wembley....Why cant we be positive..whats the problem FFS
David Barks
20   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:08:30

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Tony Marsh,

We drew Chelsea at the Bridge earlier in the season. We lost to United at Old Trafford because of one stupid tackle by Pienaar in the last minute. We lost to Liverpool because of a referee, don’t even try to question this because everyone in the world has admitted this. We played Arsenal off the park for the first half and then were done in by that thing you hate hoofball. And yesterday Lescott and Howard, don’t know which one to blame so blame them both, made a stupid mistake to lose us that game. We still have 2 games against Chelsea to come, a game against Liverpool, and a game against Arsenal. The seasons not over and we are getting Fernandes in for the 2nd half.
David Barks
21   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:18:17

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Oh and I forgot to add something. In response to your thinking that we can’t beat these sides, that Moyes is limited and can’t do so, how do you account for last season. We took a hell of a lot of points off those teams last season and still have a chance to get points off of them this season.
Ed Fitzgerald
22   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:12:48

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Terry

Why cant we be positive..whats the problem ?


My sentiment exactly when we got a double bit of luck last night. Why didnt Moyes try and change things and win the game. Chelsea are better than us but we should have seized the moment and attempted to change the course of the game. Our reticence to do this caused our downfall by trying to hang on. Do you really think the gap between the so called big 4 and ourselves is so vast that we must not try and attack any of them in a semi final when we gain a man advantage. How are we going to win the second leg, defend them to death?
Peter Bourke
23   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:10:02

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Message removed for abuse of another contributor. If you don't agree with another poster, please explain your reasons why, rather than just ranting at them. Thanks ? Moderator
Art Greeth
24   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:11:24

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I wonder if you Tony (or anyone else for that matter?) appreciates the irony of you consistently portraying the manager as a lily-livered, haggis-eating surrender monkey whilst simultaneously YOU state:

? that ?the cups are over and done with?, even though we are just two games from winning a trophy at Wembley and have a good draw in the last 32 of the UEFA Cup??
? that we have ’no chance at GP in the second leg of the S/F?’?
? that we are ?on a downward spiral? when a win against City at the weekend will take us to fourth??

Remind me again? which one of you is the defeatist with ?no bottle, no leadership, no class, and no belief in his team?? ?
Paul McCann
25   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:29:20

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Ed,

The point is that the primary objective last night should have been not to lose the tie in the first leg. We acheived this, and got an away goal. It could have been better [with the sending off and McFadden chance], so there will naturally be disappointment, but to go gung-ho would have exposed us to potentially devastating counter attacks. We have to be more adventurous in the second leg because of how the tie is poised. If we’re not, that wil be the time to criticise.
Terry Maddock
26   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:34:07

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ED:
How are we going to win the second leg, defend them to death?

No I think..if fit ,we will play an attacking 4-5-1 consisting of AJ, Arteta,Fernandes, Cahill,Baines(Mcfadden,maybe Osman)neville , Jags, Lescott,Carsley...and go for the win...
Our objective in the 1st leg, was to get them back to Goodison with the tie "still alive"...I think its very much alive...I also think we will win.... But we will need to play our very best..with no mistakes...

Its a mountain we have to climb...but after going from relegation battlers to European regulars....It should be easy...ha ha
Ed Fitzgerald
27   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:39:42

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Paul

The point is that the primary objective last night should have been not to lose the tie in the first leg. Had we lost 2-0, or 3-1 you could have made this statement, or in fact any other score you wish to mention.

I am not suggesting that we went gung ho, i am suggesting the manager should have changed things and been more positive. What would his response had been had we conceeded with 10 minutes to go, he would have changed things, agreed?.
It was an over cautious approach that lost us this tie after the sending off and the equaliser. I am not too disappointed but it starting to feel like if you voice any negative comments about Moyes you are painted as a Moyes hater (Which I am not).
What will happen if we score after 5 minutes at home, play cautiously for 85?
I have to own up I want us to play attacking
football and take chances when games are there to be won.
Brian Waring
28   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:53:42

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Terry, not having a dig at you. But how can you say " we have done and continue, to improve under David Moyes every season? " Since DM has been here we have been up and down most of the time. I thought improving every season was bettering the season before?
Paul McCann
29   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:55:51

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Ed,

I actually don’t think we were particularly negative after the sending off [apart from the last ten minutes], we just played sensibly given that there were at least 125 minutes [mostly at Goodison] left in the tie. We were also shite in the first half, and couldn’t just turn it on given that they had just gone down to ten. I’d love to see more attacking football, like you, and hopefully we will in the second leg [and this weekend].
Art Greeth
30   Posted 09/01/2008 at 22:00:41

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Brian Waring... depends what criteria you use. The league position has oscilated, but the overall movement is upward.

This season has seen us enjoy excellent runs in the Carling Cup and in Europe - the latter we haven’t been able to enjoy since the Rotterdam final more than 20 years ago.

What has further improved season on season is the quality and value of the squad - younger, more gifted, more energetic, more depth and variety.

And finally, not totally attributed to Moyes, but we also have a fantastic new training facility which further attracts good players AND the prospect of a new stadium to play in.

All positive to me, matey...
Terry Maddock
31   Posted 09/01/2008 at 22:05:15

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Brian:
I meant we as a squad ans as a club have improved every season under David Moyes..not necessarily by league position alone, but by the average age and worth of the squad..also by how the team is percieved within the media as a team that now is "expected" to be challenging for a European place..every season...We now have a team that has a "winning mentality".

We are looking up not down.....sorry I didnt spell it out...and before the YO YO comments come out...If we went 1st ,2nd ,1st ,3rd ,2nd I would not consider us a yo yo club...but a stable top 3 club....just as now we are a stable top 8 club....and I believe still on the up.
Tom Campbell
32   Posted 09/01/2008 at 22:14:43

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Go on Terry Maddock...agree with everything you write here
Stefan Tosev
33   Posted 09/01/2008 at 21:58:52

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I am not his biggest fan by all means but I think that Marsh in all his ranting,name-calling and ignorance is making one very good point - we do pay them too much respect;its not that they are so better then us, we always seem to make vital mistakes against the top sides and this is simply our mentality.

Yesterday was prime example - 11 against 10, scored sweet goal,missed chance by Faddy and at that point we had 66-34 in terms of possession. Instead of pushing for a killer, we setled for a draw and invited a lot of unnecessary pressure.

Yakubu was very tired and AJ was so ineffective it was frightening, DM could have easily substituted them with Vic and Vaughan to provide us with fresh legs,power and pace, this would not have altered the game plan and we would have been more dangerous for the last 15 min.

How many we have seen Vic and Vaughan come on, score and turn games in our favour but DM was too afraid to grab this chance and bury it over. It was opportunity missed in my eyes - well balanced game with sharp swung in our favour and inabillity to kill the tie.
Kevin Sparke
34   Posted 09/01/2008 at 23:09:08

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One is the manager of a top flight football club who makes financial and tactical decisions that risks the losing and gaining of millions of pounds. Who puts his reputation on the line very time he strikes a deal or chooses a team, leaves a player out or plays one fresh from injury. Who represents our club with dignity and fights our corner with the FA and other authorities when we?ve collectively suffered unfairness or have grievances.

The other is an idiot who hides behind the anonymity of the internet to make personal and insulting character attacks that he knows cannot be rebutted.

I ask you in all honesty ? who is the coward?

Tony Marsh - hang your head in shame lad
Eric Hardman
35   Posted 09/01/2008 at 22:44:55

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While I certainly wouldn’t go as far as Tony Marsh I think he makes some valid points. As David Moyes said before the game I think we missed our absentees more than Chelsea and for the obvious reason that their wealth enables them to field a strong second string, BUT David Moyes spends too much time, in interviews, telling everyone how strong the opposition is and I believe his inferiority complex rubs off both on the players and in his tactics, particularly when he departs from his holy 4141 system. His habit of forcing his chosen starters to play almost every game for 85 or 90 minutes before he makes changes does three things: it tires players particularly when playing twice a week, it gives litle time for his chosen replacements to have any influence on the game and it stops the fringe players from getting a decent run in the team. I believe this stems from his inate caution (should that read ’lack of bottle’).
I heard him say over Christmas that he didn’t intend to rotate players because they all ’wanted to play’. This is fine and we don’t want Rafa style ’rotation by numbers’ but it’s clear the players are starting to feel the effects of constant twice weekly games.
At the moment I can understand Tony Marsh’ s frustration because we do seem to be going backwards again. I’ll be happier when we beat a team in the top half of the table, let alone the big 3.
Laurie Hartley
36   Posted 09/01/2008 at 23:21:30

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This statement made by Tony Marsh is disgraceful - "Moyes is a coward, that’s why." Tony Marsh is way out of order. That is dispicable to call another man that in public, especially when he has no way of seeking satisfaction. It’s comparable with the behaviour of politicians under "parliamentary priviledge.
I see Kevin Sparke’s has put him in his place - well said Kevin.
Get behind Moyes, get behind the players, get behind Everton Football Club and we WILL be great again.



Tommy Gibbons
37   Posted 09/01/2008 at 23:35:24

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Let's say we finish 6th, we lose the semi and lose to Brann we may not qualify for Europe.. will you turn round and say the season as a whole was crap? It wasn?t exciting to get to the semi final? Our trips to europe were not memorable? Our youngsters aren?t getting better with experience? You think we won?t attract better players because our stock in European football HAS risen? ....because if thats what you think, then you simply aren?t a football supporter, because if you haven?t noticed..the majority of clubs/supporters are like us, we follow our team through thick n thin, we enjoy the highlights we moan at the lowlights.. It seems the article writer and his ilk can?t enjoy even the highlights.. Must be a right barrell of laughs in their houses!!
David Barks
38   Posted 10/01/2008 at 00:09:37

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Well said Kevin and Laurie. In my opinion any valid arguments that could be made are lost when people resort to that.
Paul Hardcastle
39   Posted 10/01/2008 at 00:18:27

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I?m sorry but, in the context of what Tony wrote in his analysis of the match last night, and in comparison to previous similar occurences, is his characterization really that wrong?:
"When a team are there for the taking we always, always let them off the hook. WHY? Moyes is a coward, that?s why. He hasn?t got the belief in himself or his team to try and push on and beat the big boys. He is scared of them and what might happen if he tries so we sit back and get fucked [again]."
What else explains our failure to really carry the game to our more illustrious opponents? Yes, okay, lots of you do have alternative explanations that exhonerate Moyes... but for some of us, it?s a lingering doubt that just gets reinforced.

"Coward" may be a bit strong but there is defininetly some validity to the gist of what Tony is saying, and the evidence is there in the form of the results against those teams.

It never ceases to amaze me how many Evertonians fly off the handle when Tony shares his thoughts with us. Do you really honestly believe everyone should view the match in exactly the same way? Or should accept a unified and sanctioned description of the manager as the greatest thing since sliced bread, though not the finished article???

Surely the purpose of a forum like this is so that Evertonians can be exposed to and can share a range of different views that they will not get sat at home in front of the telly, or even down the pub with their like-minded mates.

I get the distinct feeling, though, that the more intolerant ones responding above really have no interest in broadening their narrow perspectives.

I don?t agree with everything Tony says. I don?t fully agree with anything anyone says. But I read most of the contributions to this excellent site in the spirit that I believe they were submitted, and I would implore you all to do the same.

You only have to look at that utterly pathetic Chelsea article to see what fantastic value the body of material on this site represents. Please don?t ruin it by slinging insults just because you disagree with someone else?s analysis.
Neil Pearse
40   Posted 10/01/2008 at 01:02:08

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Tony, I try to take out of what you say some valid points, but this one reads like a Monty Python spoof.

This time it’s the ’What have the Romans ever done for us?’ scene from The Life of Brian.

"What has David Moyes done for us?" Well, there’s being in the top 6. And the knock-out stages of the UEFA Cup after a 100% record in the group stages. And the Carling Cup semi (which we are only the odd goal behind with an away goal and our home match to come). And much better football, only disrupted by losing all our midfield (although now we’ve got Manny back). And securing nearly all our best players on long-term constracts. And not turning Everton into a laughing stock like Newcastle, Spurs and our beloved neighbours.

But, apart from these things, Moyes has done NOTHING for us, and we are in a state of abject misery and crisis.

Always look on the bright side of life, eh Tony? (Do do, do do do do do....)
David Barks
41   Posted 10/01/2008 at 01:39:51

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Neil,

That was a classic post and spot on. I’m putting in my Monty Python DVD right now.
Jay Harris
42   Posted 10/01/2008 at 03:05:03

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Well said Paul Hardcastle.
We all enjoy throwing our views on here and it is very interesting, entertaining and somteimes close to the bone but hey anybody that doesn't like it can always go to the boring way behind the news OS at Evertonfc.com now that would be entertaining!!

Good shout Tony but as always a bit too critical.

Bear in mind we were down to the bones in midfield and looking very tired in difficult conditions with their supporters getting up a head of steam. However I do agree that I would have liked to see some fresh legs on earlier.

I am not a Moyesiah believer but have to say Harry "the funny handshake" Redknapp hasn't got his team to any semi finals and IMO is an inferior manger to Moyes.

I can feel another 3-1 Bayern Munich night coming and hope that we will all start believing and maybe that will rub off on the players and get rid of that inferiority complex.
COYB and Manny
Gerry Morrison
43   Posted 10/01/2008 at 03:28:42

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What was that earlier about an away goal. When did the away goals rule start applying in the League Cup?
Sean Condon
44   Posted 10/01/2008 at 03:06:10

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I live in Nowhere, Canada, and bought my first ever computer on the weekend so last night's pain is being tempered considerably by the pleasure of simply getting to hear the thoughts of Evertonians. I haven?t been to Goodison in twenty years but I?ll go Werner Herzog one better and eat my nuts if there is a man alive who loves this club more.

I do now know, however, that there is a more childish adult Toffee than yours truly (before this season, there was some doubt in my mind). So thanks, Tony, it was a mantle I never enjoyed anyway. As someone long fond of throwing tantrums the minute we lose a match I can empathize with your rage.

But are you fucking blind, man? David Moyes is the best thing that has happened to this club since Van den Hauwe scored at Norwich. After all the shit we?ve been dragged through in the last 20 years how can you look at what is on the pitch now and not see a steady pattern of progress?

That being said, I do think he erred in not bringing on Vic with 20-25 min left. It seemed to me that his presence in the league match at S Bridge considerably unsettled their defence during his time on the pitch, something that Yakubu hadn?t even bothered trying in the first 70min that day.

Steven Mills
45   Posted 10/01/2008 at 04:46:34

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I dont think we have lost easily to the big four

Man U at home - late goal from a set piece
Man U away - late penalty
shite at home - late penalty
Chelsea away - late own goal

Not so long ago we were being battered by these teams - losing 4-0 to Chelsea away it seemed like every single season and conceding at least 4 against Man U!

With a couple of breaks here and there we could be talking about being unbeaten against the Top 4!
Arthur jones
46   Posted 10/01/2008 at 06:03:34

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I actually think that this season the best team that we have faced is Chelsea . In the 2 games we have played against them they are the only team that have caused us problems all over the park. Arsenal didn’t , they were lucky , ditto Man utd even at Old Trafford and as for the RS , crappenburg gave it to them . Admittedly we have only faced Chelsea at Stamford bridge so it should be a different game up here . That team that Chelsea put out on Tuesday would give a game to anyone in Europe never mind the Prem so coming away with a 1 goal defecit isn’t bad , If it was a Champions league game we’d have been cheering a 2 - 1 result , in fact Real Madrid , Barca or AC milan would have taken that result . Nobody can tell me that Chelsea really wanted to put that game to bed , they know it’s going to be different at Goodison , With Mikel returning , possibly Ossie and maybe Manny it’s going to be some game especially if Fat Frank is back for them ’cos we owe him one . The player they’ll miss most is Obi Mikel , he was outstanding until his sending off , nothing got past him .
Art Greeth
47   Posted 10/01/2008 at 08:01:18

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Paul Hardcastle... You say there is some validity to the gist of what Tony is saying, given the evidence of the results against those the top four. Well the evidence from last season is that we had a damn good record against them and whilst the results have been poor against them this season, the performances most certainly have not reflected what TM describes as ?shitting our kecks? when playing them.

And it amazes me how you cannot be amazed why Evertonians rebut Tony?s thoughts, given his posting history. I am quite sure the vast majority on TW acknowledge and accept the diverse opinion posted on here. That is not the same as saying that anyone has to passively agree and accept all views ? and given the extreme bigotry and language used by TM is relation to David Moyes, I think it is perfectly reasonable and legitimate to expect fierce rebuttals of Tony?s vitriolic rants, because in the main that is what they are.

And I just love this quote by you: ?I get the distinct feeling, though, that the more intolerant ones responding above really have no interest in broadening their narrow perspectives.? If ever there was a better description posted on here defining Tony Marsh, I haven?t seen it. See Paul? Your comment aimed at Tony?s detractors equally applies to the man himself.

And we can add this one: ?Please don?t ruin (this site) by slinging insults just because you disagree with someone else?s analysis.? Agreed again, but is Tony a good exemplar of this? I quote from this thread alone: ?stop spouting crap? ? ?stop being a big girl ffs? ? ?Its like dealing with some arl women down the bingo with you crowd.?

Such comments really advance the debate, don?t they?
Christine Foster
48   Posted 10/01/2008 at 08:46:40

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All good stuff and all good comments by nearly all contributors. I have to admit to thinking the same thing when after 70 mins we had them on the ropes, I was pleading with the television to Moyes to make changes and go after it. After watching against Man U and Arsenal I felat accutely aware that our team plays at 100 % of its ability for 80% or the game, when they are on song. Which is great, until you come up against teams with that little bit more class. Their 80 % commitment of their quality players is more that a match for many of ours.
Moyes gets the most out of what he has (usually) The problem is when our guys start to flag they aren’t a match for the class overall in the big games. Sorry but thats how I see it. The only way we keep them on the back foot is by matching their skill with ours and with our added commitment. The only way that can succeed is to replace flagging guys who have given their all much earlier.
Yes, we should have taken Cahill off.. I think he was enjoying a mental break on Bondi Beach last night. I think Faddy didn’t given enough options even if he did provide ther cross and hit the post. He hardly looked dangerous all night being robbed too often and not chasing back when needed.
Moyes to go?? no way. He may lack in confidence to think he can beat some teams by showing too much respect.

The reason we lose to the big teams at the death? because we fuck up, we lose concentration, the guys have given their all and some more than 120% The stop,, tune out, hope someone else will make the run..
Maybe the team itself show too much respect, never mind the manager..
David Flanagan
49   Posted 10/01/2008 at 09:20:54

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The glass is always half emty with some people.Tony Marsh makes one valid point and that is we do seem scared of the so called big 4 but only away.Our home gameas against them in recent times have all been close affairs we’re we have took the game to them and I have no doubt the return leg will be exactly the same.The season is building up nicely but can still go either way...defeat City on Saturday and we are back on track...defeat will leave us looking below as teams will be right behind us...Better to be like this than facing relegation battles every year.Moyes does make mistakes but then again so does everyother manager....
Steve Lyth
50   Posted 10/01/2008 at 09:15:44

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Tony, I largely agree with your views normally but cant agree with the latest one you have expressed.
Can you honestly tell me you would not have taken that result before the match given the woeful options we had in midfield ?
Chelsea reserves were awsome on the night and could have easily overan us in the first half, I would agree that the fear our team showed in that period was palpable but overall I thought the lads put a gutsy performance in at the end.
Who is to say we will not get a result at home, its all to play and we have to do our part as supporters. Get behind them Tony lad.
Dave Lynch
51   Posted 10/01/2008 at 09:38:38

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Terry Maddock.
You state the team has a winning mentality.
Problem is, we have won nothing yet and when it comes to the big 4 WE DO FALL SHORT EVERYTIME.
This is not down to bad luck. It is down to inferior players and inferior tactics. We are not a top 4 or even a top 6 side IMO but i will wait till the end of the season to see if i’m right.
It’s ok having a winning mentality, it’s actually winning thats the problem.
My missus has a millionairs mentality when we go shopping. I just havn’t got the money to back it up though.
Same with us i fear.
Paul Bernard
52   Posted 10/01/2008 at 09:56:44

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I have to agree with many of the replies to Tonys opinion and some of Tony?s himself, its as simple as this

1. Chelsea's reserve team players would walk into our team or for that fact any team.
2. Moyes does bottle it against the big four, not only the big four but 10 men of any opposition
3. Tonys passion is immense. Although this passion needs to be shown at Goodison by backing the blues.
4. I have never seen anybody come close as moyes has to bringing silverware to Goodison in a long time (1995).
5. No bottle, no leadership, no class - this maybe true about Moyes, but results show that Moyes has progressed everton football club recently.

All I can say Tony is i understand your frustration, but like one response states, getting rid of Moyes would not please you as we wouldn't get another manager like Moyes for a long time, Alex Fergo, Wenger, Mourinho are managers I would like to but will never see manage Everton.

I would also like to make a point that we are closing in on the top four, as are Spurs and Pompey maybe Blackburn and Villa, but I feel its only a top three in this league as Liverpool can be caught, we are however a mile of the big three financially. In Moyes we trust COYB.
Laurie Hartley
53   Posted 10/01/2008 at 09:58:58

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Paul Hardcastle, I am not questioning Tony Marshś right to post his opinions about the game, the performance of the players, manager, the board or his fellow Evertonians for that matter. What I take exception to is the label he put on David Moyes.
John Lloyd
54   Posted 10/01/2008 at 10:22:32

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I?m not gonna get into a football ?debate? with him, but I will along with a few people on here just go over a couple of points with him.

Chelsea Reserves - including players such as Carvalho, Belletti, Alex, Bridge, Mikel, J Cole, Pizarro & Ballack all with top top level of club & international football. Worth over a combined £100 million or close to anyway!!

Are you also suggesting that Harry Redknapp would do a better job in last few years?? Obviously open to opinion but mine is ?you are fuckin joking aren?t you??

You also state we had relatively new injuries so having our three out of our 4 most creative & influential midfielders (ossie, Mikel & Stevie P) doesnt count?? Unfortunatley without resources like Chelsea?s ANY team would miss that calibre of player.

Throughout the article you have 3 or 4 personal digs at Moyes including calling him a coward for not going gung ho against a 10 man chelsea team who were primed for counter attacking football (obviously your a football genius then!!) and also state he has no class?

Well Tony Marsh the only person void of class is yet again YOU, as soon as we dont play exactly as you want and do what you would, you seem to start the Moyes out bandwagon claiming our season is over......your an idiot mate, you are the prime example of a over fickle football fan, like the pub loudmouth who reckons he knows it all and gets laughed at by everyone else in the boozer.

Just like your getting laughed at by most people on here now....
Jay Campbell
55   Posted 10/01/2008 at 10:44:36

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We?ll take these Fuckers in 2 weeks time tellin ya!!!
Terry Maddock
56   Posted 10/01/2008 at 10:50:39

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Dave Lynch:
"Problem is, we have won nothing yet and when it comes to the big 4 WE DO FALL SHORT EVERYTIME"

EFC 1 Arsenal 0

Arsenal 1 EFC 1

EFC 3 LFC 0

EFC 1 Arsenal 0

Chelsea 1 EFC 1

Chelsea 1 EFC 1

LFC 0 EFC 0

I believe the phrase I am looking for is, "Oh no we dont"...but of course I am only using the facts from the last 3 seasons as an example ...instead of a preconcieved hatred of the manager coupled with a total lack of understanding concerning the finances of each club being directly associated with there success apart from one team only , that team being EFC , the only team to break the so called BIG 4’s monopoly of champions league places...Also..and again I apologise for the use of actual facts..WE are (currently) 6th in the table, and at the end of last season we finished 6th in the table..

This does indeed make us a "top 6" team

ITS A FACT...ITS TRUE, ITS THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE..I DIDNT MAKE IT UP

Another FACT... 20,million quid will..on most(not always) occasions , buy you a better player than 5 million quid will...

So Ronaldo, Giggs,Hargreaves and Anderson....should be better than Arteta,Cahill, Carsley, Neville....

The players that we can buy..will nearly always be inferior, to the players Man utd , Chelski,Arsenal and the shite can afford,,

The "Inferior tactics" you mention...well getting a team bought ,by premiership standards to win their UEFA cup group with a 100% record, to the semi final of a cup..and once again..possible automatic european football thru their leage placing..all suggests..to my feeble mind..that those tactics are not that inferior after all...but hey as always to those of your ilk...why let the facts get in the way of a good moan...Christmas is over after all.
Mike Carlisle
57   Posted 10/01/2008 at 11:16:02

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Would it not be better if we all made a concerted effort not to reply to Tony Marsh?s comments. Just let him spew his thoughts on his own little personal comments page.

Tony Marsh?s Blog for One.
Ed Fitzgerald
58   Posted 10/01/2008 at 11:39:29

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Tony Marsh did post an article before Xmas praising the football we were playing and the style of football we were playing. He recieved abuse for that as well.

Terry you are a little selective in your memory of matches against the big four over the past three years arent you, only quoting the results that support your point. (We have been embarrased by Chelsea before in cup competitions, lost at home etc, Man U!) I would however agree that we are a top six team.

Regardless of the opposition Oldham or Chelsea Moyes should have made changes on Tuesday night, particulalry when they went down to ten men. Tony maybe over the top, but so are the responses that suggest Moyes is beyond critical comments. Yes he is a good manager and I dont want him sacked, that would be madness.With twenty minutes to go on tuesday it was a time to gamble. His unwillingness to be bold at this point I believe cost us the game and possibly the tie. I hope I am wrong and we stuff Chelsea in the 2nd leg.
Dave Dawson
59   Posted 10/01/2008 at 11:37:42

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I?m equally frustrated with our recent performances against Chelsea, Arsenal, Man U and Oldham, I think Moyes does need to improve his tactics when playing against the big four BUT that is only one Moyes weakness amongst many Moyes strengths.

On the whole I still think Moyes is doing a very good job for Everton, we have to be patient because he is developing with the club.

I think it?s wholly unrealistic to expect a top four position this year when in relation to the top four and others (Spurs, Newcastle, prob Man C once more cash is splashed this January) we still have a relatively small squad that cannot cover injuries.

Rome wasn?t built in a day, and as long as the steady progress continues under Moyes (I think we are still improving) then I THINK WE SHOULD SUPPORT HIM.

After all, look at the state of Newcastle!
Paul Lenehan
60   Posted 10/01/2008 at 11:45:24

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What annoys me is his tone. Ok we all have different opinions and during the unbeaten run people came on and made comments about the run possibly not being as good as some thought it was. Others came on saying its the best in 20 years. My point is fellow Evertonians came on and had a debate. Not everyone agreed with each other but I believe that is what this site is all about i.e. to allow people to dicuss issues knowing that while we don’t always agree we all have a common thread. Tony Marsh’s article does not stimulate useful debate and in using words such as Coward, pathetic surrender, no bottle etc etc it turns into a very personal attack on a man who has done brilliant work for Everton and in my opinion is a fellow Evertonian. In other words Tony your tone is not appropriate and unwelcome.
Steve Green, Southampton
61   Posted 10/01/2008 at 11:46:07

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Hey Chris Fisher, I don?t think Tony Marsh is a Liverpool fan, he?s just typical of those dinosaurs ?The Kemlyn Road Moaners? circa mid / late 70?s.
You know the type - win, lose or draw ? up off their seats bang on 28 minutes past 4 to catch the earliest soccerbus home (They can?t do it anymore cos all the flights out of JLA depart as scheduled).
They were a breed that couldn?t even enjoy their team?s triumphs and moaned and criticised like hell at the first sign of not winning every game 3-0 or 4-0.
Sound familiar ?
Whilst I am aware of where Tony is coming from in wanting to uphold longstanding standards, please Tony, let?s enjoy the bits we can or just pack up and do something equally as fulfilling like crown green bowling at The Liver or skiing on an artificial slope ffs.
Tony, 1 goal deficit at half time with an away goal in the onion bag, home leg to come, you?d have took that at 7-30pm on Tuesday night fella, don?t kid yourself.
Dave Lynch
62   Posted 10/01/2008 at 11:44:58

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Terry.
You talk about facts.
Fact is we have won nothing. FACT !
I am not going to get into a petty argument with you over this. But also most of your other stated facts are from seasons past.
This is a different season Terry, and as I stated I will wait till the end to make my judgement (for what it is worth).
I do not dwell on past glories, be them last season or last decade. I judge on the NOW ! Ok we are in a semi and still in Europe, but how far we actually get in these is inconsequential to me as a semi defeat will still mean no trophy.
I honestly hope we succeed and I hope it?s under Moyes.
But I have my opinion and although it differs from yours in most points.
The one we agree on is we both crave success.
Success to me is not being the nearly men and finishing 6th, it?s winning.
Now thats a winning mentality.
Accept nothing less.
Dawson Boyle
63   Posted 10/01/2008 at 12:47:46

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I love your championing of Harry Redknapp Tony, considering he couldn’t get his team to score a single goal at home over christmas. He was really going for the ’jugular’ as you so laughably put it.

Neil McKinney
64   Posted 10/01/2008 at 12:55:26

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"Is there still anyone left who doubts what I said now after last night’s pathetic surrender?"

You are a piece of work Tony! You really must have your tongue firmly in your cheek when writing this dross.

I’m not even going to bother breaking down your argument and rubbishing it, cos many have already done it above. Just read their posts Tony, people use facts and reality to prove you wrong yet you would still argue that black is white. Your arguments may start with the tiniest most miniscule grain of truth and are distorted beyond all reason by your radical opinions.

IMHO you are a fuckwit Tony. However, you are obviously either passionate or just like being slated, and it is clear from the number of responses that your article generates that you are a valuable contributor to Toffeeweb. Let’s face it nobody quite gets the blood boiling like Mr Marsh.

COYB!!
Terry Maddock
65   Posted 10/01/2008 at 13:23:01

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Dave:
"Success to me is not being the nearly men and finishing 6th, it?s winning.
Now thats a winning mentality.
Accept nothing less."

So if we don't win the league....
You need to support a team that can match your ambitions..or get a grip on reality.
Steve Templeton
66   Posted 10/01/2008 at 13:22:23

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Jesus! Talk about shooting from the hip.

We’re one goal down in a two-legged semi-final, in the last 32 of the UEFA cup and in with an outside chance of qualifying for the Champions League and according to you Tony our season is over.

You sound like a Liverpool supporter!

I’m not going to go through every failing in your post pal as other posters have more than covered your misguided views, I would like however to draw your attention to one little fact in response to your rants about not beating the ’big four’.

They said on Sky Sports a couple of weeks ago that in 225 premier league games the top four had only lost four games at home (somewhat bizzarely West Ham won three of them).

If Moyes is a bottler against the so-called big four then so is every other manager outside of those teams, past and present.

You really do need to get a grip of yourself mate, this is our best season for years and you’d think Walter Smith was still in charge from your negative postings.
Andy Lea
67   Posted 10/01/2008 at 13:23:18

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All teams have blips, i think we are getting ours now and a win against city will rectify the good work that we have done this season, this game will be crucial as it will see if we can cope with the ANC absentees, ok Manny is back but he may be some games off full fitness, not all doom and gloom but caution is needed or we could easily slip into top 9 by the time the Africans come back and be out of the cup, the next few weeks we will see if Moyesey can take us in the top 4 or 5 and to wembley without our key Africans. Wait and see but no matter what, i wouldnt want the manager sacked or slate him, he has to be the best british manager in the premiership, some more funds this summer and the squad could cope more next season against the top 4.
Dave Lynch
68   Posted 10/01/2008 at 13:42:37

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Terry.
Slow down and stop taking peoples opinions so personally.
My aspitations for EFC are high, yes.
But i am not delusional enough to think we are going to win the league.
But that does not stop me wanting success for us either.
You really should should stop and smell the flowers.
By the way i have a firm grip on reality as far as Everton goes Terry.
A much firmer grip than posters who think we are better than we really are.
The end of the season will tell the truth, lets wait and see. NSNO.
Tony Williams
69   Posted 10/01/2008 at 13:29:52

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"This is a different season Terry, and as I stated I will wait till the end to make my judgement (for what it is worth).
I do not dwell on past glories, be them last season or last decade. I judge on the NOW"

I see your point Dave but don’t you thing the gloommeister Marsh judges Moyes on past glories and how we were the "big" team in the 80’s?

We all now the spiel, "when Moyes took over...et etc relegation fodder...etc etc....european hopefuls all the way to playing in European competitions" however good Moyes does Marsh just wants to vent his bile.

I am unsure why he has such hatred for the man who has took us so far and trying to take us further and I hope that I never get to a point where I feel as unhappy as Marsh when we are doing relatively well.

Yes I want to win the league, Champions League, FA and Carling Cup but baby steps mate....baby steps
Steve Templeton
70   Posted 10/01/2008 at 14:07:23

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I’ve just re-read my post and I should have made it clear that the ’big four’ have only lost four games at home to teams outside of the ’big four’ in 225 matches.
Dave Lynch
71   Posted 10/01/2008 at 14:12:06

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TW.
I can’t speak for TM, he is quite capable of that himself.
I agree baby steps are the way, but some posters think we are there already ( or very very close to it ).
Nothing could be further from the truth my freind.
That unfortunately is the reality.
stu jonno
72   Posted 10/01/2008 at 15:07:27

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Tony are you related to rodney?
i completely disagree with this post.
1stly we were robbed by a referee against the RS, manure we lost 1nil at home in a close game and fucked up last minute away. arsenal we outclassed for 45mins and chelsea we drew away in the league an in the cc we were just shite without our creative midfielders so how we shit ourselves against the big 4 i dont know.

and why do people blame moyes for us defending when chelsea were down to 10 men, moyes wasnt on the pitch FFS
the truth is the players we had out couldnt keep the ball! thats down to ability

Chris James
73   Posted 10/01/2008 at 14:10:33

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Ahh dear, we really do have some of the most fickle fans in the league don’t we...maybe Man U and Chelsea will sell a few extra shirts come May.


Amazes me that Tony doesn’t like Moyes though, I’d have thought that as someone who crumbles in the face of adversity, they’d have plenty in common. Go figure!
Terry Maddock
74   Posted 10/01/2008 at 14:48:41

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Dave..
I don't take it personally..I just get exasperated at the constant contradictions and throway comments used as a basis for arguement against all that is good at Everton Football Club...
I have not read any posts in the last two years (not even Doddy) that claim we are the finished article..The majority of , shall we say "Moyes supporters" all credit him for ,steadily and with much financial accumen. increasing the quality and the worth of the squad...
This season especially we have come to see a more attractive style of football to go with the much vaunted team spirit and to my mind all the credit must go to David Moyes...
People come on here and (Marsh especially) use all sort of quite frankly deplorable ways to describe the guy..

He is constantly trying to improve things on and off the field and is well known for judging a player on there character as well as there footballing ability, this shows to me that he is a man of high moral fibre...totally undeserving of some of the shit he gets off so called fans..

He wont sign mercenaries "et al; Newcastle( Joey ,jailbird Barton) and always admits his rights and wrongs to the media, even if he does wear his heart on his sleeve...
I don't think..bar one bad one, that David Moyes has ever failed in a season at EFC..
because his standards at justas high as ours, his hopes and dreams the same..
But he is human and will make mistakes,,Alex Ferguson still does..(Juan Sebastion Veron)...luckily for us he cant make £30,000,000 mistakes...on the flip side, he cant buy £30,000,000 stunners either...

I'm all for reasonable, logical ..even emotional debate...but the type of garbage spouted by Tony Marsh is undefendable.
Michael Kenrick
75   Posted 10/01/2008 at 15:23:19

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You, Terry, and a whole host of others do take it personally ? just look at the comments above.

There’s a couple of things that spring to mind for me: One is this idea that Moyes is the best, therefore he is perfect and beyond reproach. Well if you had any grounding in our history you would know that no Everton manager could ascend to such a level of perfection.

Why can’t Tony address the failings he continues to see? Surely that is they way forward? Rather than pretending Moyes is the best, wouldn’t it be better and more realistic (amongst ourselves as Evertonians) to allow at least a few people to point to his continual failings and say, "Yeah. could do better" ? without totally jumping down their throats?

And the second is the one about us all being Evertonians. Surely you’ve seen or (more likely) heard people like Tony at Goodison Park? I certainly have. They are Evretonians. More critical Evertonians but Evertonians all the same. You talk of bile but there really is very little if any actually there in what Tony writes. Most of the bile comes in the comments, from suppossedly saner fans who really do not do themselves proud at all.

I tell you this for nothing: I would much rather read Tony’s comments, no matter how acidic they may be, than 80% of the sycophantic rubbish that repeats ad nauseanm how much better off we are now than under Walter Smith, right through to how well we did last season.

Well, here’s the news: It’s this season now, and we have lost four out of the last six games. I’m a little bit concerned.... perhaps you should be too!
George McClelland
76   Posted 10/01/2008 at 15:15:18

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I can’t help but agreeing with Tony....in parts. There seems to be an endemic lack of self-belief within the team with regards to playing the "big four". An endemic I can trace back to our 3-2 home defeat to Chelsea last year.Unless this is addressed then we can never hope to be regarded in (well atleast in the immediate future) the same esteem as are more "coveraged counterparts". The most frustrating part, from the perspective of a fan, is that in parts we have not only matched these teams but bettered them. If, we had been clobbered and played of the park, then fair enough at least limitations are known a efforts can be made to improve upon it. But it unrealised (non)achievements that is most grating. We have at times outplayed "the top four", only to relinquish hard fought gains. Hopefully a corner will be turned soon.
John Lloyd
77   Posted 10/01/2008 at 15:41:48

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Michael, any criticism surely must have basis. Tonys never on this occasion, he makes more than a few completely incorrect statements which he uses to personally attack Moyes......what use is that from an ’Evertoninan’ who’s seemingly main goal is to see our current manager ousted, no more.

When people who contribute on here come on & praise/have a go at the team its usually constructive, they dont just rant because we’re not winning like the 80’s.

After some equally daft posts/columns in the summer concerning Kirkby if I remember rightly he was stopped from posting columns by yourselves!!! So why Marsh can rant on in a colunm but we cant counter his claims without you jumping on like his fucking laywer or bodyguard, he’s a big boy. If he wants to post his opinions then he can fucking read what I (and others respond to them) without you throwing your handbag in.............or am I taking this too personal ha ha!!



Paul Lenehan
78   Posted 10/01/2008 at 15:41:10

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Michael, in fairness I haven’t read to many comments saying that Moyes is beyond reproach. The point I made earlier was that Tony Marsh’s tone and choice of language was unnecesssary and I stand by that. You asked for us to be more realistic. Well the reality is there is a big four. This is not accepting mediocrity but accepting reality. They have better players, more money and greater depth than us. The reality is that while Mr. Marsh was happy to call the chelsea team their reserves and language such as "easier opportunity", they had two full England internationals, the German captain, a French international and a Nigerian international in midfield - not a bad reserve team. The reality is we are a top six team trying to bridge a massive gap between us and the top four. People on all sides need to have a little perspective. When we are winning we are not all of a sudden title contenders bit when we lose we are not pathetic. Thats the reality of it. I was gutted with the way we lost on tuesday but those who expected us to win at Stamford bridge need a dose of reality. We were capable of it, but if we play them or any other of the top 4 10 times we may only win 2 or 3. The reason is we are not as good as them. Now I believe with time we can close the gap, and we are progressing but the fact is player for player we do match the Chelsea’s of this world. This nonsense of slating Moyes everytime we lose gets tiresome. There are of course times when criticism is warranted, but on tuesday we lost because we couldn’t keep the ball and fell deeper and deeper towards the end. I doubt Moyes directed them to fall deep and give away posession - we lacked the quality to keep the ball. Thats the reality. Tony Marsh needs to be realistic.
Michael Kenrick
79   Posted 10/01/2008 at 16:10:25

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Paul, they are only opinions. What makes your opinion more resalistic? Only your own opinion. Why is Tony being less realistic? The opportunity to win the game was clearly there, we blew it. As an Everrtonian, I would want to comment on that. My opinion may differ from yours but who’s to say whose is "realistic" and whose isn’t?

Please, let’s have a bit more sanity. We all know what Tony’s like. Some of us can accept that without flying off the handle, and we can still respect his right to voice his opinion. Why can’t you?
chris keightley
80   Posted 10/01/2008 at 15:53:15

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Good one Michael the reason people get pissed off is because Mr Marsh decides to climb from under his rock and place dribble on your site and off he disapears for months on end, his most recent postings have highlighted how narrow minded he is, not as you put it a passionate evertonian, he goes from praising the team to slating the manager in a month, hes clearly a good weather supporter, but as we all no football has its ups and downs, slate me all you like, but i played at a decent level and the last thing i ever did was slate my manager, evertons players respect moyes, hes done a decent job got me enjoying being a evertonian, not a miserable doom monger who only parps up when slagging off the team he supports, or praising when they do well, and it took 13 games unbeaten for the dope to do that !!!!!!!!!!!!
Paul Lenehan
81   Posted 10/01/2008 at 16:21:05

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Michael, I do accept differing opinions indeed im on this website everyday offering mine and readings others. I don’t fly off the handle and you will see from my original post on this thread that it was Mr Marsh’s tone and choice of language which I took issue with. You have asked me why is Tony less realistic, and stated that everyone has opinions. I fully accept that, but you will see it was you who originally asked for those who criticise Mr. Marsh to be more realistic. So I could ask you why is Mr. Marsh more realistic than the rest of us? My point was that its the same teams who qualify for the Champions League, who win the League, who win the FA Cup and now who win the League Cup every year. We are not in that group. This is not my opinion the history books will show this as fact. So the question is why is this case?
Tony Waverleas
82   Posted 10/01/2008 at 16:11:48

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Michael, you really can see no bile in Tony Marsh’s outrageous slur that our manager is a "dud" and a "coward"?
You see no bile in someone using the anonymity of the internet to make such an attack on the character of another when the name-thrower knows full well his target has no means of satisfactory redress? You see no bile in David Moyes being told he has no bottle, leadership or class?
Michael, if you can’t see it then what’s the use in pointing it out to you?
To then blithely talk of respondents taking things too personally beggars belief. It is possible to be affronted on behalf of someone else you know, particularly someone else who doesn’t have the means to confront such jibes directly.
But you put the top hat on the lot with your suggestion that we probably hear a lot worse at the match as if this legitimises Tony’s rant (and it is a rant by the way).
Actually, Michael, I do hear a lot similar and even worse at the match and it makes my heart sink every week to have to put up with people straining at the leash for the first stray pass so they can vent spleen.
To then find such stuff on hear (particularly given the editorial policies in place with which I am certainlly familiar) I find doubly disappointing.
Steve Templeton
83   Posted 10/01/2008 at 16:33:03

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Michael, oh dear!

I have just read your statement that there is ’very little, if any’ bile in Tony’s comments.

How about this taken from his original post for starters......... "shit our kecks", "pathetic surrender", "Moyes is a coward", " fucked again", pitiful capitulation", "it makes me sick", "haunt me forever", "no bottle, no leadership, no class", "down the shitter", "pathetic bottle job".

You even go on to admit that his comments are ’acidic’!

You can’t have it both ways, if Tony wants to dish it out in the manner that he does then he must expect to receive it in the same manner.

Of course he is entitled to his opinion as an Evertonian but if he puts his opinion across in the way that he does he is going to get a reaction and deservedly so.
Dave Lynch
84   Posted 10/01/2008 at 17:35:59

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Terry.
I have every respect for your views.
They are yours and you are entitled to them.
But my views are mine, i believe in my views.
I posted a quote on here about 2 years ago which said.
" I may not agree with what you say. But i will fight to the death for your right to say it."
End.
Terry Maddock
85   Posted 10/01/2008 at 17:57:38

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Micheal Kenrick...

I have been going to Goodison park for what will now be my 38th season..

When I 1st went I wore a hand knitted blue and white scarf..given to me by my great grandfather...it had been his as a boy, So dont you dare to tell me I have no grounding in our clubs history..simply because you take the cup is half empty view..you try to defend the indefensible..

Its not only that Tony Marsh is wrong..its the shitty way he says it as well...most of what I have posted is simply, as I often say just the facts..less the emotion...

You are just blindly sticking up for your mate...you should try and direct as much enthusiasm towards supporting the team..
And yes I have sat next to somebody like Marsh at the game...on the players backs at every missed tackle or misplaced pass..spoiling the game for all within earshot......
Tony Williams
86   Posted 10/01/2008 at 19:09:50

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Well it looks like Marshy has done it again, the old hit and run post has worked it’s magic once more.

And of course the rush to defend him by Michael, funny how no other poster gets defender so stoically.

If you are unable to see bile in the original post then perhaps an editorial job is not best suited for you.
Robert Carney
87   Posted 10/01/2008 at 19:10:59

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We read here on regular occasions the memory?s of the great but short lived eighties side. In particular, our opinions of when the table turned for us to move forward.

Surely the second leg at Goodison could be the springboard.

If we create the same atmosphere as the famous Bayern night anything is possible.

We were one down at half time, this time we have 90 minutes.

Moyes thought the atmosphere was good against Portsmouth last season. Let the Goodion faithful show him what he really missed.
Ajamu Mutumwa
88   Posted 10/01/2008 at 19:43:12

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Tony "Jihad" Marsh, peace be upon you.

There’s a club which will suit your temperament down to the ground. Its called Newcastle. Now looking for it’s eight manager in 11 years!!!

I am sure that your a real Evertonian, but what I hate about your tripe is that its full of nothing but hate with no discernable solutions.

I’d love it if you wrote an article extolling the virtues of the manager whom you feel would take Everton to the next level given our finances.

Until then, the humour is wearing really thin.
Clyde McPhatter
89   Posted 10/01/2008 at 21:35:27

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I always love to see Tony’s posts and then the defnse from onehalf of the editoial team.....but I would love to know EXACTLYwhat the hell you would have done differently in that game?

Cahill was hurt and not up to speed. Graveson could not offer much relief and would have been used only to chase a goal. Agree? The two kids maybe should have been introduced earlier but we COULD NOT make any other changes becasue of who was missing and who was available. The Yak made two great plays. The goal, and the back heel to Faddy. AJ had his moments. We tired and had no one else to put on. And they got a ridiculously lucky goal. Wow. Let’s SAck him for that.

R
Keith Harrison
90   Posted 10/01/2008 at 23:06:22

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I agree with Tony insofar as Moyesie should have introduced Vic, and also Vaughn into the fray with about 20 mins remaining. We needed fresh legs to carry the battle to Chelsea, and stretch them when they were down to 10 men. We did lack the courage of our convictions to go for the jugular, and until this is overcome, we will always be on the fringes.
having said that, if we had got the goal that SWP scored, I bet the referee would have given a foul for the climb/push in the back.

Lets raise the roof for the second leg, and watch Manny inspire us back to Wembley.

Anyone who needs inspiration for the fight should read the link to the Chelsea site about Tuesdays game.

And I used to think the Redshite were biased and big-headed !!!
Jim Lloyd
91   Posted 10/01/2008 at 21:57:22

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Good God, sorry for blaspheming, but I found myself reading the earlier parts of ths discussion and finding myself agreeing with some of the comments made by Terry Maddocks. I had to go and lie down in a darkened room.
I also found myself empathising with Tony Marsh?s anguished posts about Moyesies perceived lack of adventure, bottle, aggression, tactical awareness or whatever else we all might wish to call it.
I think we all have a bit to learn really, including our manager, If I can mention someone who many of you might find an anathema, it?s a certain Bill Shankly. He resurrected a club that was going nowhere and Moysie has done the same.
The difference between these two fine men, is that Shankly took a philoshophy, an attitude, which he shouted out to all the great teams (and at that time Everton were a great team) that, if you played Liverpool, you were going to know you?d been in a game. He was so successful that teams didn?t relish their turn to visit Anfield. They all knew that there would be no hiding place. This attitude also gave their fans confidence to back their team with confidence.
In my humble opinion Mr Moyes, needs to learn to a bit of Shanks?s "they?re going to be glad to leave here" mentality and we need to back him, if he can come out and say that "from now on, no team will get an easy ride playing the Blues"
We also need to be able to tell Moysie, that "if you?ll say that in public, we will back you to the hilt"
I think we can start when we next play Chelsea: I think we can frighten them to death. When they come out at Goodison, it?s up to us to make them wish they never had. It?s also up to Moysie to set the scene by saying they are in for a battering. As much as we respect their class and their skill, they are in for a battering. Can we play our part? Well why bloody not!! We did it to Bayern Munich, who were supposedly miles better than us.
We had Manager, team and fans, all as one.
From now on, if we want to argue, then lets do it in private. I think Moysie needs to be more assertive; but he?s learning . He?s a good manager but he could become a great manager. We are a good crowd but we need to become a great crowd.
No longer do we want to read in the papers, about Everton folding before greater quality. If we get beat, then fair enough, but lets make Goodison a place were teams don?t want to go. We will then have done our part. I?m sure our players and our manager will respond.
Arthur Jones
92   Posted 11/01/2008 at 01:24:18

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I have just spent a while reading through all the replies to Tony Marsh?s article including my own response and one thing struck me that nobody has mentioned: David Moyes is going nowhere unless he chooses to. Bill Kenwright would give him a lifelong contract if he could, so however much bitching and backbiting spouted about DM on this site it?s worth diddley squat! Of course everyone has the right to an opinion no matter how objectionable some may find it, it?s their view, end of story... but if an opinion expressed is insulting and possibly libelous then I find it easy to understand when the aggressor is bitten back.
Laurie Hartley
93   Posted 11/01/2008 at 04:40:25

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Jim Lloyd - what a terrific post. You are dead right about Bill Shankly. When I was younger I couldn’t stand him but now that I am older and life has knocked a few of the corners off me I can see what he achieved for ---- ( "them"). Your advice is solid - we should all take it on board.

We WERE great then ( I was at Anfield when we licked them 4-0 - what a day!) and WE WILL BE GREAT AGAIN! and the faith and patience of our younger EVERTONIAN’S will be rewarded.

EFC - "A proper Football Club"



Dave Wilson
94   Posted 11/01/2008 at 06:11:30

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Tony
Regardless of what anyone here says, your 100% correct when you say we should have siezed the moment, not sure how anyone can say otherwise, but to say its over ? The fat lady STILL hasnt got the gig yet
DM is over cautious at times, but that caution has served us very well over the years, lets face it we’re skint and we cant afford the sort of manager who would pay 20 million for Dirk kuyt and Barbie then shrug his shoulders when he see’s they’re shite and ask for more money. DM has had to be the proverbial "Dour Scot" but every season he unearths a gem, usually for next to nothing and the more of these gems he finds the bolder he gets - three years ago Chelsea coulda had 4 sent off and he still wouldnt have "gone for the jugular" - Get behind him, like you "I want it now" but lets be frank here, only this season are we giving the 4 a real game of football, ok we are falling short, but even DM’s biggest critics must admit we’re getting closer to them
I posted a couple of weeks ago that my money was down for this cup, I believe there may come a time when we do throw caution to the wind, but I’m not kissing goodbye to me dosh just yet
Terry Maddock
95   Posted 11/01/2008 at 17:56:00

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As far as the tie being over..one thing sticks in my mind...

And thats Bayern Munich in 1985..

We were in the park end that night, purely because you couldnt normally watch from there..
We got the 68 from the bottom of Knowsley rd in Bootle at about 5,Oclock and by the time it reached the Black Horse it was rocking with the noise,we only stopped singing in the carisbrooke to order a pint or two...Everywhere around the ground wasnon stop singing...We actuall got in the ground at about 6:40 and even then it was half full, again constant singing..and as the crowd grew the louder it got..it stopped for about 5 seconds when the Germans scored..and then just got louder..

We carried on singing right thru half time..and went ballistic at the end...

We got a carry out from the Harlech..and set off back to Seaforth around 11:20 and carried on drinking and singing till about 4 in the morning...I just about got my voice back two days later..

Anyway...my point is..If we can reproduce that kind of "Wall of Noise" when the arrogant twats come down here, then we can all play our part in getting the team to Wembley..even if you are not the type who likes to sing at the game...this one night,have a go...Its been 13 years...since we had the chance..lets make the most of it...Everybody, Even when those twats arrive at the ground..let them know where they are...Goodison Park has been like a Mausoleum the last few seasons..But we can scare the shit out of teams..and as Andy Gray said."suck the ball into the net"..

Well lets do it on the 23rd...Even Tony Marsh.
Jim Lloyd
96   Posted 11/01/2008 at 20:08:01

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Laurie, yes they were great days indeed and we were lucky enough to have seen some of the great players. Well, I don’t say we’ve got all the great players just yet,though I do think we’re getting there. Terry, I must be getting an attack of the vapours, as I’m agreeing with you again! The Bayern night was a special night because the crowd and the team refused to be beaten.
So when we play Chelsea, let’s make them glad to leave the place. Hopefully Moysie takes a leaf out of all what we’ve tried to say and tells his players, just what you’ve said "Let’s do it!"
Karl Masters
97   Posted 11/01/2008 at 22:40:38

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I sometimes wonder if Michael and Tony Marsh are one in the same. They seem to share similar views maybe Michael uses the alias to put it across more forcefully?!

Personally, I don?t always agree with what ?Tony? says, although aspiring for the highest standards does mean you should always be self critical. What I don?t always like is the OTT language which renders most of the arguments, valid or not, as little more than a tirade of personal insults.

My view is that Moyes has done a good job, but that you can never rest on your laurels and that we can still do better. I believe that improvement is coming all the time and am prepared to be patient.
Lewis Abbott
98   Posted 12/01/2008 at 00:53:05

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Look I am only 18, I have never seen a succesful side to Everton, or one i can rember, and never have I been so gutted to be a blue on Tuesday night. as I sat there in the shed end I was truly gutted to be an Evertonian led by David Moyes.

Never has an Everton team that I have saw ever had the chance to so easily seal themselves into a Wembly final. When Chelsea were down to 10 men they were looking shaky and even McFadden was playing well, and all Moyes did was let it go stale.

Point 1:- YAKUBU ? The guy is clearley a talented finnisher, but in no circumstances ever should he be allowed to complete 89 minutes, he is slow and lazy and runs out of steam after about 70/75. This would have been a simple change when the game went stale (about the 80 minute mark) and it would have given Chelsea defenders something to think about, and we all no big Vik has prescense.

Point 2 - MOYES - I am not a fan of Moyes and I never will be, not because he wastes money, as he does, not because he isn't very good at his job, as he is, but because he frustrates the hell out of me. He lets games slip away and couldn't take advantage of any situation given to him.

For all the good things that Moyes has done for this club, his 90minutes match management is terrible. He tends to sit on his hands when it comes to subs, and doesn't realise that subs are there to change games ? not just to waste time. I don't think he really understands subs. For instance everything is going well, Yakubu has just equalised the team is pushing forward. so here he could have applied more firepower(although this wouldn't have made that much sense as we were playing chelsea after all). Then the game goes stale, and niether team were strong, here Moyes should have done something; he didn't. As always, he sat on his hands, he got Vik stripped, then we had a good chance, so he told him to sit back down(I could see Vik going mad from here). Then he brings Vik on, at a time when we were on the defensive (point?) and Vik could have no influence. a complete waste.

point 3 - THE FANS - After this game I heard so many people saying... ahh its ok, its only half time, we will have them at goodison. no we wont! they are a good side and they will defend there lead and probably beat us again. We had chelsea, there and then, for the taking. to seal our place in the final and put a good few goals in(mcfadden been gready and hitting the post just one)... so were is your ambition? were is your heart? were is your passion for everton football club to win a trophy? and if i am adressing you( which is everyone i went to the game with on tuesday, and the only added story i have read on here by lyndon lloyd) Then why do you support everton? if you can put up with that awful performance when we got nothing short of a gift handed to us on a plate by john obi mikel, and you can put up with sheer negativity from your management, then why do you bother? honestly! And if you are so desperate that you must say "we?ll have em at goodison" then i feel sorry for you, as you can keep dreaming but the reality is we blew it... accept it.


For anyone like me that is sick of watching their team almost do well, and almost beat chelsea, and almost beat Arsenal, is it not time to realise that Moyes has run his time at everton? That maybe we need someone with a touch of class? someone who knows how to kill a game?

COYB

Demsond Prosper
99   Posted 12/01/2008 at 23:58:57

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Lewis,

Who would you suggest replace Moyes? Allardyce? Joll? Souness? Roeder? None of them have done anything Moyes hasn?t achieved. Mourinho? Can?t afford him.

Newcastle obviously subscribes to your philosphy ? out with the manager if the team does not improve overnight! Look at where it?s gotten them! On the other hand, Man U, Arsenal and even Liverpool don?t change managers that often ? look at what they have done. Patience is a virtue ? especially in football management.

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