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An opinion... let's move!

By Dave Wallbank :  23/03/2008 :  Comments (84) :
I have kept silent with my opinions on the ground move; I have so many great memories in my head of Everton at Goodison. It's probably the only the place I feel I belong at times, it means the world to me, being there on match days.

But it?s not the ground that gives me that buzz, not all of it. It?s the boys in the royal blue jerseys that do it for me. I voted Yes to a move to Kirkby, I went to college there and I certainly don?t believe the hype that it's not in Liverpool (try telling anyone in a boozer they?re a woolly back and see what happens in 5 seconds flat.) I am sure everyone who loves Everton will watch them regardless were we play, I doubt thousands of people will sit at home on a Saturday and watch the telly... don?t kid yourselves.

I feel bitter (more sad) towards some fans, who seem happy to indulge in the surroundings of Goodison ? like pigs in shit, they seem to love it. Everything about the build-up to games at Goodison is awful, the streets are unsafe, the pubs are dire ? and I mean they are the worst in the world. I don?t see any reason why anyone would want to stay, other than the great memories created inside our mecca that is Goodison Park.

People also talk about the lack of atmosphere in new stadiums; again don?t kid yourself. Goodison Park at times is far too silent; it only seems to be bad refereeing decisions that get us more vocal. We as supporters should take responsibility for the atmosphere, we respond to the lads on the pitch. Blaming an unblocked perfect view of the game for the lack of atmosphere is silly, a new stadium is only going to be as good as what we make of it.

I read a few articles/comments about peoples pre-match rituals before games at Goodison. I do feel sad that people won?t be able to go the Goodison chipy after queueing an hour then going to the Wimslow and waiting another hour to get a pint of what isn?t beer. I truly am sorry! I?m sorry you won?t be hussled by street pond life for money to ?mind ya car? or go to a betting shop with the capacity of a big Division Two game inside, I really am sorry that you won?t be able to do any of this!

Come the move (which I do hope happens), people will settle into new pre-match rituals, and hopefully have their eyes widened open to a brave new world of service and standards (maybe not value for money) but certainly a better way of life. I for one would rather put my money in the clubs pocket than some poor excuse for a retailer's pocket around Goodison.

I started off by saying I have kept my opinions to myself up until now, and before you razor sharp comedians say it, maybe I should of kept them to myself. But we have a great opportunity to push forward now, we should be debating how to make our new home the best in the land, talking about what we want from it, what we expect....

Reader Comments

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Juan Roman
1   Posted 23/03/2008 at 20:18:42

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Dave, I made my second ever trip to Goodison for the West Ham match. I went to the ground at around 3:30 to get the atmosphere early and I agree with a lot of what you said. The pubs are shite & the beer (esp the one pull Guinness) is piss. I also agree that the crowd are often quiet which I found strange given Arsene Wenger?s comments recently ? maybe against the more successful teams it?s noisier. I also met some unsavoury characters after the game who belittled my nationality but then told me that Dublin had improved except for all the "packies & coons" that were there now. But the point is whether or not the new stadium would be noisier, have better pubs or have better people at the games and I don?t see why you would think that it necessarily would.
Brian Waring
2   Posted 23/03/2008 at 20:57:00

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Dave, what make’s you think that Kirkby is any better than where Goodison is? I am originally from Huyton, just down the road from Kirkby, and no disrespect to my fellow Huytonian’s, but that was a shithole, but take it from me, it was better than Kirkby. And you are right, it is the fans who make the atmosphere in the stadium, but what is the atmosphere going to be like, when we are playing in a 55,000 seater stadium, with (if were are lucky ) 40,000 fan’s there?
Paul O'Neill
3   Posted 23/03/2008 at 21:18:04

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I keep saying I?m sick of this subject and then posting on it, I know that and I?m sorry! After the West Ham game yesterday I went straight for the bus. One miserable bus crawled down a freezing County Road in an hour, packed like sardines and passing huddled masses of freezing Evertonians waited plaintively and in vain for another at every stop. I often forget just what an almighty ball ache it is to get into town post game. Yesterday I walked half the way then got a cab, and still I didn?t pass any buses. KEIOC?s latest moan is the proposed transport plan for Kirkby. If it?s one per cent better than the horrific current state of affairs for those of us heretics who dare to live anywhere other than North Liverpool, I?ll be dancing in the streets, because it simply can?t be any worse.
L Ron Hibbert
4   Posted 23/03/2008 at 21:36:29

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"Come the move... people will settle into new pre-match rituals, and hopefully have their eyes widened open to a brave new world of service and ... certainly a better way of life."

Amen to that, Aldous mate. Goodison being a twenty-five minute walk from Liverpool City Centre really grinds my gears. Especially when it?s cold and raining and we?ve lost to Oldham and I can?t get no transport on County Road and I?ve trodden in arrogant red and white dog shit and I?ve had to pay a scally a fiver to look after my misgivings about Phil Neville and I?ve bought a bag of chips with a couple of small black hardened chips in the bottom and my pint of Guiness has been poured in one swift movement instead of three measured ones and then I?m listening to Radio City and a man from the Top Balcony comes on and tells me how white our players could be but he can?t be a man ?cause he doesn?t smoke the same cigarettes as me.

etc.
Jeffrey Leahey
5   Posted 23/03/2008 at 22:21:51

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The only thing that gives me any hope when it comes to a move to a new stadium is the experience of my mate in work who is as mad a Man City supporter as I am an Evertonian. He was pig sick about leaving Maine Road with the same arguments that we're having; he now admits it's the best thing that's happened. Maine Road was a shithole compared to the levels of comfort and service he now enjoys.
Derek Thomas
6   Posted 24/03/2008 at 00:04:32

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Sorry Dave et al I’m in the Christine Foster camp
Keith Glazzard
7   Posted 24/03/2008 at 00:07:45

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Anyone who says that the quality of service - from a chip butty to a pint of whatever - around Goodison is better than crap needs to get out more. And, of course, the bistros and trattorias of Kirkby are unlikely to be challenging for Michelin stars (a couple of decent Wetherspoons in the area would clean up).

The point is the team, the wins, and the stadium design, on the inside. 40 000 plus per game, taking on Sky’s chosen 4 and the best in Europe. That’s a future.
Pat Domingo
8   Posted 24/03/2008 at 01:12:21

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L Ron Hibbert. That post was genius, mate!
Jay Harris
9   Posted 24/03/2008 at 04:04:03

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Dream on lads.
Dave Wallbank if you went to college there youll know that the infrastructure will not support the movement of 40,000+ fans every couple of weeks and, if the currently projected costs and objections are anything to go b,y we wont be going anyway!
Arthur Jones
10   Posted 24/03/2008 at 04:08:57

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OMG, what a load of garbage , ?the streets are unsafe? ???? ? Where?

In the immediate vicinty of the ground it's crawling with cops but they?re very low profile and I?ve found them approachable. Have you tried to talk to a cop outside the Stadium of Light?

"The pubs are dire"? there?s more than one pub than the Winslow,... The Spellow, Crofts, Orrys, Black Horse... need I go on? All good places.

The Atmosphere ? did you go to the Fiorentina game? Or any of the European games? Or the Chelsea semi-final? If you?re that desperate to get a bet on then put it on inside the ground!! Doh... I do with no bother.

Transport!! ? my favourite. In Kirkby you won?t be able to park within a mile and a half of the ground. If you?re lucky then you might get in the Copplehouse car park. And some of you want to get to Liverpool City Centre after the game, ha! By train, crush-loaded, it will take an hour and a half to clear Kirkby station; no toilets, very little shelter and guess what? they have cold wet weather in Kirkby as well you know. Then there's buses... you?ve got the additional problem of getting through Walton Vale: NO CHANCE! Those who know need no explaination, and you think it's going to be easier getting a taxi in Kirkby? NO ? Liverpool cabs can?t pick up in Kirkby, you?ll have to walk past the boundary just past the Copplehouse, in the freezing cold wet windy weather that they only get outside Goodison on a matchday!!!

Goodison can be refurbished , see the article by Tom Hughes and Trevor Skempson, so decent seating with a great view is not a problem. Neither is having better facilities inside the ground.

So those of us who like Goodison are like "pigs in shit " That remark is an insult of the highest order. I can go to and from the ground with little problem, go for a drink in a decent place, watch the game from my seat in the Park End, great view , great atmosphere, and once or twice a season I treat myself to the marquee experience , which I enjoy.

Oh yes, the reason the view and atmosphere is so good??? I haven?t got my head stuck right up my arse during the game which you surely have. I?m amazed you bother going. The only tiny part of your "informative " missive I can relate to is the ?mind yer car ? ritual,but you think there are no scallies in Kirkby? Are you up for a rude awakening ?,

Incidently , I refuse to call a fellow human being "pond life". What gives you the right to dismiss a few kids who are just trying to make a couple of bob with such a stuck-up condescending remark?

And finally, the ground doesn?t give you a ?buzz???? It?s where our history was made, in my case 40 years of history, it?s where peoples ashes are scattered, where Dixie and the Catt died, where Bally and Labby called home, where William Ralph Dean (Dixie) scored his 60 goals in one season and Bobby Latchford got his 30th. It?s called history, tradition, memories...

You are entitled to your opinion, I can respect that. What I don?t respect is being referred to as a "pig in shit" and "enjoy in endulging in it" ? that's not a reasoned argument; that's a deliberate insult to me and thousands of others.

Christine Foster
11   Posted 24/03/2008 at 07:33:18

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Dave Wallbank: You know in many ways the experience of Goodison Park could be better. Agreeed. In many ways the pubs, the service, the transport could all be better. Agreed. The atmosphere? The tradition? the love for the ground? Ok.. say all that and then repeat after me..Kirkby.

Who is kidding who? We know Goodison has its shortcomings and they are pretty big ones too. BUT, once you step on the slippy slop of Kirkby there is no coming back. It doesn?t matter if Kirkby is 100 m down the road or 4 miles. The point is THAT move is wrong because its being made for the WRONG reasons.

It's Wrong because we aren?t getting the whole story; it's Wrong because there is no transparency; it's Wrong because they (the Board?) believe they know best. Without answering all the questions, If the Board came up with a viable solution anywhere other than Kirkby that reflected all our concerns, explored openly all the options, I for one would applaud them. As it stands I can only condemn them for their arrogance and their deceit. Strong words I know, but one should realise that a stronger club can only be the outcome if they opened the discussion up and arrived at a decision that was fair and representative of the fans, that explored independently all possible solutions and THEN went forward. Yes, there would forever be those who disagree BUT at least we would have had an honest and representative appraisal of ALL solutions.

So when you moan about the pub, the bus or the Goodison experience, remember that the heart and soul of Liverpool is its people. Take the people out of Liverpool and send them to Kirkby?? Hasn?t that been done before?

Jens Stoltenberg
12   Posted 24/03/2008 at 08:24:20

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Arthur Jones, people like you will be the death of our club.
Mike Coates
13   Posted 24/03/2008 at 08:28:51

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Curious.. If one has a motorcycle over there, can you park it anywhere?

Here in Australia (even though I’m now in a different country without my beloved bike..) I can park anywhere, on any street, right next to every stadium. And its the best way to get around ;)

And the cops over here barely breath test a biker.. I only drink a drink every goal newayz.. lol (that 7 goaler was a killer).. Required a night over in town.
Mike Hughes
14   Posted 24/03/2008 at 09:28:56

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Dave - I now know why you sometimes feel that Goodison is the only place you belong (is that still the case?) You sound like an offensive little git and I usually reserve abusive comments for RS. I was one of those "pond life" who used to mind cars in the 70’s. I lived in those "unsafe" streets and still park outside my Mum’s house before the game. The queues for the pub and the chippy are also part of the match day experience I view with affection. I have moved on in life and now live over the water in a very different hi-tec 21st century world. Goodison is the one constant that I look forward to and I voted "No" to Kirkby for many reasons. While I am in favour of progress, that doesn’t include catering to the prawn sandwich, sky, big brother, NUTS / FHM generation like yourself. The next time the Mighty Blues are at home, why not go for a nice frothy latte and read 442 magazine in Borders book shop? That’ll be more your style. You can then catch the sale at DFS afterwards......
Colin Grierson
15   Posted 24/03/2008 at 09:38:50

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion but some of you are being a bit pompous about being right.

What is being discussed is the ’experience’ of going to the game. Everybody’s rituals will differ.

It depends where you live. It depends how pushed for time you are. It depends whether you take kids with you. It depends whether you are intimidated by chancers trying to extort a bit of cash out of you with veiled threats of vandalism. It depends whether you like fish and chips. It depends where you choose to have a bevvy before the game. It depends on WHO you have a bevvy with before the game. It depends whether or not you CHOOSE to have a bevvy before the game ( I pity those who didn’t on Saturday though). It depends whether you think you are better than other people. It depends whether you think there but for the grace of God go I.

I think you may have got the point by now. There are more than a few variables regarding ’Match Day’ enjoyment. Each to their own I say.

At least you don’t have to find your hotel from beneath your twelve scarves before you catch the boat or plane back to RS land after having your photo taken at the Shankly Gates and then off to the Beatles museum and the Liverpool shop to stock up on badges etc.

You don’t have to like people cos they support the same team as you. I’ve met more than a few tossers who I don’t really want to be associated with in my time. They probably think I’m a tosser though and who says I’m right cos its all opinions (I am right though by the way). Believe me they are everywhere. Like every other club up and down the land we all have our fair share.

Don’t forget where you come from!

COYB
Gavin Ramejkis
16   Posted 24/03/2008 at 10:38:37

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Amen, brother Arthur. The luddites that dream new shiny will be better in the tropical climate of Kirkby are talking shite especially with even less transport provision and an anti car drivers design, and yet to hear from the club how disabled supporters are expected to freeze their arses off like cattle pushing and shoving in long soup kitchen-like queues or walk/hobble/wheel themselves the half an hour plus from the car exclusion zone to the game. How will the club challenge for honours when any money they make will be servicing the debt of building the cattle shed?
Paul Gladwell
17   Posted 24/03/2008 at 10:42:05

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Jens if people like Arthur Jones will be the death of our club for stating the history that is Goodison Park, people's ashes, Dean and Catterick's last breaths there, etc, then there are a good few thousand of us out there mate. We are the people who make this club breathe, so coming on here spouting and calling him for being upset about the biggest issue in 130 years of history is bang out of order.
Arthur Jones
18   Posted 24/03/2008 at 11:52:05

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Jens, 40 years of going to Goodison Park and I?m going to be the death of this club??? I have gave my opinion and there are many people who agree with me. Wherever we go, I will not walk away from my team, even if it is Kirkby.

If you actually know what you are talking about then please let me know why my wish for us to stay at a refurbished Goodison will be the death of Everton? Bill Kenwright and Kieth Wyness have failed to convince me, and the THOUSANDS who voted no to the move, and they?ve failed to convince the thousands who would have voted No if they had been eligible to vote.

I?m waiting...

Ian Ankers
19   Posted 24/03/2008 at 12:07:36

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Personally I couldn?t care less about all the things stated in the original post. Yes most of them are true (if not a little over the top), but I still wouldn?t miss a blues game for anything. I get the feeling that Dave Wallbank has been seduced by that shiny leaflet with all the Kirkby pics on it. The pubs will still be full, there will still be someone offering to ?mind yer car mate?.

Goodison or Kirkby or anywhere else, I?ll still support the blues 100%. It actually sounds Dave like you should stay at home and listen to the match on Radio City if it?s really that horrible an experience for you mate!
Lindon Watkins
20   Posted 24/03/2008 at 12:25:20

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I don?t think we should go to Kirkby but can see no affordable alternative. What I am sure about is that unless Everton can bring its turnover up to somewhere near that of our Big Four rivals, fifth is as good as it will ever get! Sugar Daddies apart ? and they all want a pay-off somewhere down the line ? we can only make progress by increasing our income streams.

Whether the present administration is up to that task, I somehow doubt as Wyness is likely to flog off every money-making asset that comes with a new stadium but we have to give Davey the opportunity to show he can take us all the way. For sure he ain?t going to do that on the present Goodison turnover.

Tom Hughes
21   Posted 24/03/2008 at 12:00:07

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People deriding Goodison for its transport links really do need to stop and think before they post, especially when considering the option they are trying to promote in this respect is end-of-the-line-Kirkby. The public transport capacity for Walton, simply by virtue of being more central, and at the convergence of several arterial routes (which can be utilised in both directions) as well as close to the inner ring road is many times that of out-of-town Kirkby. That is a logistical constant that no soundbite will ever change. 8 times more trains at Sandhills, and over 10 times more buses passing through Walton as through Kirkby (which will only be utilised in one direction). Most districts in the city haven’t even got a direct service to Kirkby meaning many more 2 or 3 bus trip journeys. Of course since deregulation, there are far less surplus buses in the system nowadays and the lines of matchday buses at the old Walton bus station no longer exists, yet a key feature of the pro-kirkby proposals is a park and ride scheme that will need hundreds of buses to make it work. In a system that struggles to provide a few soccerbuses every week. Therefore, if you think you struggle at Walton, you’ll be in for a very rude awakening in Kirkby

As far as options for pre/post match rituals (socialising is an important part of match-going surely), there are dozens of pubs in and around Walton if you haven’t found any good ones I can only say that you haven’t been going very long, and literally hundreds in the city-centre that will cater for every taste only a 10 min taxi ride away. Meanwhile the mighty metropolis that is Kirkby has a handfull of pubs in its entirety, and the ride into city centre will cost you a small fortune (again with considerably fewer taxies to serve you).

All this of couse and who knows what damage the resultant change in perception/image/brand or whatever you want to call it may result form moving out of town, not to mention loss of history and heritage. Whatever value you put on these I’d say it’s more than a few batman lights on an off-the-shelf stadium design. IMHO
Joe Ludden
22   Posted 24/03/2008 at 13:01:49

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Jens - Arthur Jones made a valid and accurate statement, please explain what he said wrong, what needs correcting, and why having a passion for GP is killing our club?

I would just like to add a few other facts to Arthur?s regards The Grand Old Lady: The first purpose-built football ground in England; the only club ground in England to have ever hosted a World Cup semi final; the first club ground to install undersoil heating; the first to have a 3-tier stand... the list goes on and on...

The records GP holds are more than most clubs can manage! If in doubt, I suggest you read the following unbiased account in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodison_Park

Opening sentence: Built in 1892, on what was Mere Green field, it is one of the oldest and most historic football grounds in the world and was the first major football stadium in England.

ps. Everyone agrees the facilities need improving - I hate the queues for a warm Chang too. Few years back, my local over the road was also poor, with sub standard pints. You know what they did? Refurbed it. They didn't stick a car park on it and move to a totally new site. Today it?s a top local with decent ale, good grub, and still just across the road. Very handy.

Joe Ludden
23   Posted 24/03/2008 at 13:19:04

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pps: I forgot to add that GP has hosted more international matches than any other club ground in England - despite not being used whilst Wembley was being rebuilt and ignored also for Euro96.
Jay Harris
24   Posted 24/03/2008 at 12:59:58

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Why do some people think that going to Kirkby (as opposed to other options) will increase our turnover? The only thing that will significantly increase our turnover is better marketing.

If you think Kirkby will increase the attendance and or have nore corporate income then think again. With the transport and location problems I think we are seriously deluding ourselves about a significantly increased capacity especially in the longer term once people have decided they dont like the experience.

I would compare it to "poor performance" seasons when only the diehard Evertonians go (about 30/35,000 at best). We will also lose a couple of thousand people (at a guess) who will refuse to go on principle.

As for the corporate boxes, can anybody in their right mind see corporate box users/sponsors preferring Kirkby to Liverpool?

As for the facilities, would you hold a wedding or function there or regularly go for one of the entertainment nights there. Have the lessons of the Reebok not been learned? Out of town sites like Kirkby do not work. Things that are CHEAP usually are CHEAP in every sense of the word (and I view certain board members in that category).

For those who mock GP and its facilities, I and many thousands like me are totally offended by your remarks. I have been going to GP since 1958 as a 7-year-old with 3 generations of family before that. It has provided me with some of the highest highs and lowest lows in my life and in the 60s when we got crowds of 65,000 regularly you couldnt see most of the game and were crushed like sardines but hey what an experience. When Goodison rocks she really rocks but when Kirkby rocks watch it fall down.

There again it?ll never happen because the cheapskates won't be able to afford it.

jayharris
25   Posted 24/03/2008 at 13:25:28

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I forgot to mention.

To Jens Stoltenberg (Good scouse name!!)

Arthur Jones is the lifeblood of our club not its death so a bit of respect please.
john sreet
26   Posted 24/03/2008 at 13:29:03

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People take their slums with them.......it’s all in the mind
Jay Harris
27   Posted 24/03/2008 at 13:27:49

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For all those that think Kirkby will generate more money for players, think again.

There isn't a new ground in the country that generates more money for players because the club is then saddled with a massive mortgage which needs servicing.

If you believe KW?s propaganda you deserve everything you get but sadly by then it will be too late to save "THE CRIME OF THE CENTURY"
Dave Wilson
28   Posted 24/03/2008 at 12:16:44

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Jens
Without people like Arthur Jones we wouldn't have a club

Dave
Anfield, St James, Old Trafford, Villa Park, WHL, Emerates Upton Park, Fratton Park, all have similar surroundings to GP: shite chippys, dirty boozers selling crap beer, kids wanting a fiver for "minding your car"... even dogs that shit in the street. Everything you whine about in this article applies to all the above. Guess what else they have in common ? they?re all fucken choca every week !

JJB, Reebock, Reading and all the other retail park sheds may not have "Scallies" asking you for a fiver for your car parking, but they do have odious little opportunist who "rent" you a parking space in their showroom car parks but forget to tell you they will be cramming them in bumper to bumper and it might take you over an hour to get out.

True they don't have crap pubs... they don't have ANY pubs! Guess what else these sheds have in common? Empty seats, thousands of them.

The average British football fan - not just the Evertonian - knows he?s going to rough it with his mates before and after the game, but he likes it, that's why he keeps doing it
If you're above the rough inner city surroundings of ALL the great clubs, I suggest your watching the wrong sport.

You say you feel bitter towards fans you describe as "pigs in shite"... trust me, you dont feel half as bitter as I do towards someone who claims the "unsafe" streets around GP is a reason to vote to move.

Barry Scott
29   Posted 24/03/2008 at 12:42:52

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I believe that Keith Wyness is to receive a 7 digit bonus if we move to a new stadium, surely that’s the reason why the club are so intent on moving (if true).
Arthur Jones
30   Posted 24/03/2008 at 13:45:45

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Thanks lads; I still do and always will adhere to the statement, "Those who know, need no explaination. Those who don?t ..... Don?t matter" ... and this thread goes a long way to prove that!!
Paul Gladwell
31   Posted 24/03/2008 at 14:07:14

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The thing that worries me, is given bullshits previous on failures and cock ups, why is there no plan B in place? Because let's be fair, there is one hell of a possibility this will go tits up, it the costs are rising by the minute for starters before we even talk about objections and such. So to me no plan B is total gross missmanagement of the highest order and they are getting trusted with the biggest decision in our history which is beyond me.
Jay Harris
32   Posted 24/03/2008 at 15:13:12

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Paul
THERES NOT EVEN A PLAN "A"!!!!!!

Its Tesco?s plan not ours!!!!!!!!!!!!
Paul Gladwell
33   Posted 24/03/2008 at 15:19:44

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Too true, them pair of liars owe alot to Moyes for keeping the shit off them, just glad he has put it on their toes with his little comment on not backing it up would be criminal shout.

Just wonder whom they will scrounge the funds from though, as we all know any investors will be told "Come back when Kirkby is finished."
Joe Ludden
34   Posted 24/03/2008 at 15:31:33

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There is a Plan B people, and BK has said it is "look at redevelopment of Goodison again". It should be Plan A is all.

ps. Dave Wallbank clearly has never been on a pub crawl in Redditch. There my friend you will find the worst in the country (exception - The Winyates - a dire hole in what is classed the second least affluent district in England, only the brave should enter, and then keep schtum once inside BUT it does have a signed and framed Everton shirt on its wall!! Didn?t have the minerals to ask why though)... and why are people so concerned about the Guiness pouring? It?s hard to find any establishment these days that gets it right. If it?s wet and it?s got alcohol in it, jobs a good un. You?ll be wanting a serviette next..
Brian Waring
35   Posted 24/03/2008 at 15:53:36

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There is one thing that really gets on my tits. Where are these extra 15 - 20,000 fan?s coming from, to fill a new stadium? We can?t even fill Goodison to capacity every week. I feel sorry for the Yes voters, they were duped with shiny pictures, and promises of a stadium virtually free. Quotes of ?Deal of the Century ? were spouted by Wyness, to win a vote.

The funny thing is, after the bullshitters got the majority, "Stadium for free" became stadium for £80 - £100M. I?m just glad there was people out there, who knew it sounded to good to be true, and never fell for all the propaganda shite. You can just imagine KW?s bank balance, if all this goe?s ahead.

Colin Grierson
36   Posted 24/03/2008 at 15:49:39

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Kirkby is NOT a viable option and NEVER will be. A move there will be the death of our club, not the died in the wool opinions of clearly a true blue!

Well said Arthur. It's good to know that there are others out there that ?understand? the historical importance involved here. This really is make or break.

So, Jens and all those of a similar opinion, wake up and stop being brainwashed by the drip feed of lies and misinformation. Even if you are too naive to question the whole issue, allow others to do it ON YOUR BEHALF!

Don?t be offensive to those who have served this great club longer than the legends of the turf. Show some respect! Without the fans who have been going to Goodison week in week out for years we don?t have a club. WE are that lifeblood. Every last one of us deserves our say and we haven?t had that.

Brian Waring
37   Posted 24/03/2008 at 18:32:59

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Colin, we can?t have a say, as you will probalby be reminded by someone on here. You will be told that BK owns the club, and he can do what ever he like?s with it. I fucking hate all this ?he?s a true blue? shite. If he was, he would listen to what the fans have to say, instead, he hides behind KW.
Dave Wallbank
38   Posted 24/03/2008 at 19:58:03

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The reason I didn?t want to give my opinion was because I would receive idiot comments and people would slag me off. Some comments were great, and for the record Arthur Jones your picking on the wrong person about which games I go to, because I have had a season ticket for 18 years and travel most away games, if you look at BlueKipper.com, my pic?s from Italy and Germany from the Uefa Cup are on there.

I am glad some people will embrace the move, but my main point was what do we want from a new stadium? All I wanted to point out was that I want more from a match day experience, and if we want to will can make the atmosphere amazing! Believe me I meant it when I said Goodison Park is the only place on earth I feel I belong, but I?m not stupid enough to ignore the chance to create more memories and be apart of a new future, a better more successful future?no one has ever said ?lets ignore our heritage? it will be a very sad day when we leave Goodison it really will.

I will apologise for the ?pig?s in shit? comment, because I shouldn?t judge people for being themselves, but I won?t let you people pull rank on the club we all love and stay because you like going the Spellow.
Robert Carney
39   Posted 24/03/2008 at 20:33:36

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Dave, after all the comments in response to your posting, you still manage to come across as an arrogant pice of shit you so dislike walking into.
The matchday experience begins usually when you meet your colleagues/freinds. As Tom clearly points out, the city centre is only a fiver's ride away.
As for eighteen years, my children have been going longer than that. As a probable social climber, it is in your interest to suck up to anyone in authority, I am sure Bill and Keith appreciate your comments.

When the club is heading for obscurity in ten years time, no doubt you will be watching the red shite by then.

As for shite beer and chips, I take it you take your prawn sandwiches and small bottle of shit wine with you. The crap on sale within the vicinty of Goodison is far superior to the crap sold inside the ground.

As for your poor Guinness, is that not the most overhyped pint of cold mild in the world. Try a real porter ale, I doubt if you would know were to find it.
Arthur Jones
40   Posted 24/03/2008 at 20:33:45

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Dave Wallbank, I certainly won?t shut up on your command. As I?ve said I respect your right to an opinion but I certainly won?t accept a personal insult from you or anyone. If you have read my post properly, you will know that your childish remark about liking the Spellow as the reason I go to the match is a complete crock of shit. As you my have read, there are a lot of people backing my opinion and as for your ?Ashley Cole? type of apology for labelling some of us ?pigs in shit?, I?ll file your "apology" alongside the insult that it was intended.

I would much prefer to create new memories and a better future inside a refurbished Goodison Park, not a plastic stadium in Tesco?s car park in Kirkby, where even the residents don?t want us to go. I?ll never agree with anything you have written and I?m quite comfortable in that fact , and I certainly don?t want to trade insults with you. I packed in doing that when I left school over 30 years ago.

My comments weren?t ?idiot comments? ? they were my reasons for wanting to stay at Goodison, and if you are going to make a post on a contraversial subject and you didn?t expect people to disagree with you then you must be very naive. So don?t throw your toys out of the pram if you make an insulting comment and people bite back.

Ralph Basnett
41   Posted 24/03/2008 at 21:04:12

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I?m sure it has been mentioned before but thought I would say it any way and see what reactions I get....

Although we all bought our season tickets and weekly tickets at the end of the day isn?t it BK?s trainset and if he wants to move it he could, he didn?t have to give a vote?

Just what would we have to discuss if he had just made the decision to move?
Brian Waring
42   Posted 24/03/2008 at 21:48:29

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Ralph, the reason why he gave a vote was to cover his own back. If the stadium move was a succes (Ha Ha Ha ...as if!) he would take all the credit. If it went tit?s up, he would blame the fans, by stating that they voted for it.
Arthur Jones
43   Posted 24/03/2008 at 21:34:46

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Ralph,

A good point, he didn?t have to give us the vote but the propoganda was loaded in favour of the ?Yes? vote and there are a lot of people now who are coming around to the fact that we weren? t told the full facts. eg, the glossy missives told us we were paying nothing for the Krkby-dome. Now it seems it could cost us as much as £150m . The vote was, in my humble opinion, a risk he took to head off any objections.

If he had just informed us that we were going and that?s it, it would not have made any difference, many people would still have objected, perhaps even more vociferously as most people tend not to like doing what they are ordered to do without reason or discussion. I understand where you are coming from and it is a valid point but I don?t think the vote altered anything.

John Kelly
44   Posted 24/03/2008 at 21:26:53

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Dave Wallbank

"The reason I didn?t want to give my opinion was because I would receive idiot comments and people would slag me off. Some comments were great, blah,blah blah"

So we’re now classed as "pigs in shit "and if we dont agree with your opinion we’re idiots.
You my "friend" should cross the park and support the up their own arse legions of the gobshites that reside over there.


"I will apologise for the ?pig?s in shit? comment, because I shouldn?t judge people for being themselves,blah,blah,blah"

Condescending prick,veiled apologies dont count or did you think we’d be too idiotic to see what you actually mean.
I believe people like you are a small minority of Evertonians that want to move to Kirkby.
I know the vote was flawed as I personally know some people that didnt get a vote and some that got two or three.
As well as that I hold two season tickets in my name and only got one vote,my mate didnt get a vote.
A recount /re-vote anyone?
Why were only season ticket holders and only SOME season ticket holders allowed to vote?

Why werent ALL Evertonians allowed to vote?

Sorry Dave but you have been conned by the club and the propoganda they peddled before the vote.
In finishing yes I do enjoy a pint before the game with friends I only see at the game,I go to the chippy, I enjoy the whole Goodison Park day out, and if that makes me a "pig in shit" then so be it.
Karl Masters
45   Posted 24/03/2008 at 22:09:11

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Surely the fact that every time this subject comes up it provokes a massive debate should prove to Bill Kenwright that he really is playing with fire.

Whether you agree or not with going to Kirkby, you cannot disagree that this is and is going to become the most divisive thing to ever happen to our Club.

I think BK has been duped by Wyness and Tesco Terry Leahy into thinking there’s no alternative. If that’s so, how come Aston Villa have totally rebuilt Villa Park, how come West Ham and Spurs have rebuilt 3 sides of their stadiums - all with no sugar daddies or Champions League money?

Fuck me! Get this Kenwright! They tell you it’s Win-win-win. It’s not It’s win for Big Tesco getting their development where they couldn’t have dreamed, it’s win for Big Bonus Wyness and it’s lose for Everton. If it’s going to cost over £100m to go to Kirkby, either spend the money gradually over 10 years on Goodison or blow it all now on Kirkby and have no money for the Team and throw away the recent progress, for what exactly? A B grade stadium in the wrong place which will solve nothing. Give me strength!!!!!
Tony Henry
46   Posted 24/03/2008 at 22:18:26

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John Kelly,

I won?t give my opinion on the ground move for fear of being accused of bias one way or the other. But how does getting two or three ballot papers make the move ?more? likely? Are you saying that BK knows voter intentions and sends ballot papers accordingly?

The ?small minority? voted in favour ? despite what you would like to imagine. The public gets what the public wants, as somebody once wrote. And can you show me the ?list? with ?all evertonians? written down on it? My Aunt Joan went once in 87 and watches them sometimes on MOTD ? does she get a vote? How else do you organise it? Goodison Park IS a large part of Everton ? and when we move the club will be different. I realise that and accept it ? I?m not necessarily overly happy with it.
Joe Ludden
47   Posted 24/03/2008 at 23:09:41

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We are football supporters no? Isnt a dodgy pint, late buses and a naff pack of chips part of the day? I'm not a pig - they are quite intelligent afterall - and I don't want to raise the wrath of more fans with my opinion, but dear god, all of you who want to move, why? Why now? Why is an obstructed view suddenly the biggest issue in our history (I had an obstructed view for the Pompey game last season - didn't stop me sheading a tear to Z-Cars and carrying my (older) brother around the the row when we scored number 2 though).

My Grandad watching in the 1910s didn't have a great view too. What we lack in trophies we make up for in history. We are talking about selling that. The ignomany of a car park that facilitates the New Anfield in its stead. Shame on BK and KW. I love GP and I love my EFC. As they say "please don't take my Everton away".

Tim Davis
48   Posted 25/03/2008 at 00:27:38

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Karl Masters said ?Surely the fact that every time this subject comes up it provokes a massive debate should prove to Bill Kenwright that he really is playing with fire?.

That's ridiculous Karl, that ?massive debate? is merely the same old same old few names popping up all the time with the same old same old tired arguments that were being fought this time last year. I?ve been to every home match this season bar one and I?ve noticed a smallish debate get ever smaller to the point of none existent - apart from the same old same old names debating the same old same old points on here. What IS massive is the massive LOL i?m doing right now over what you said. LOL.

Joe Ludden
49   Posted 25/03/2008 at 00:39:10

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Expletives totally jusitfied in any and all responses to Tim Davies comment.

Tim we are custodians of the club, we carry her forward for the next generation. Take it seriously please.
Jay Harris
50   Posted 25/03/2008 at 02:39:25

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Joe
totally agree with all your sentiments.

"Anyone can be a Liverpudlian but Evertonians are born".

It seems some of the younger bucks are willing to give up their heritage based on the "Words" of "The Illusionist" and his partner in crime "Big Bonus" Keith.

The only consolation I have is that Kirkby wont happen because nobody in their right mind would lend BK between 80-120 million without security and he will do exactly as he did with Kings Dock find a mug; then find the mug wants security and drop it like a brick.
Jay Harris
51   Posted 25/03/2008 at 02:48:36

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Joe
like you I am sure I remember being in the "Boys Pen" in the early 60?s and then I found "Gold" and could get in the ground with 60000+ mad evertonians almost every game.

Most never saw the game: they werent tall enough but would ask whats going on?

In Derby matches it was like sardines - so bad that you couldnt get out for a pee without not being able to get your place back so people stood on the spot and ........... .

Talk about facilities it was hot dishwater and if you were lucky enough to get them before they were all gone "Mulholland?s" Pies.

People never worried about restricted views they felt lucky to be in the same ground as their heroes and I wouldnt change those memories for the world.

Those were REAL people and Real experiences.

Now I?m all for progress but evolution NOT revolution and in case anyone is new to the site I?m totally opposed to Kirkby and I wouldnt trust the current board to run Chester City never mind EFC.
Dave Wilson
52   Posted 25/03/2008 at 07:35:06

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Ralph

Given that most of the claims made in the glossy brochure that accompanied the ballot papers have since been exposed as pie in the sky, do you honestly believe the clubs spin merchants could pull the wool over "the majority" eyes a second time? Our custodians have been exposed as selfish sharks and I?ve lost count of the people who voted Yes but now complain "this isn't what they promised " Yes they gave us a vote, but they totally mislead the fans with false promises
I can't wait till Kirkby goes belly up and the custodians realize the fortune they spent trying to hoodwink the fans was wasted.
Dave Wallbank
53   Posted 25/03/2008 at 08:46:54

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Arthur/John Kelly, great comments again.....suggesting I should support Liverpool is really great!!! Also finally for the last time I will ever post anything on this site (I know everyone will now be happy) the worst type of person is the person who hopes things will go wrong! Why wish the kirkby project to fail? This is unreal (dave wilson) I just want what is best for Everton, why would you take pleasure in watching Everton suffer (which I don’t think will be the case) I read a post a few months back, somebody wrote ’fortune favours the brave...’ The move to Kirkby is a bold/brave (educated) gamble. Maybe when the revenue streams actually prove Everton to be a force in the transfer market and fingers crossed silverware is back were it belongs, this debate will be a distant memory.....I might also get over being called a ’Condescending prick’ and being encouraged to support the dark side from across the park (that actually hurt!)
Ralph Basnett
54   Posted 25/03/2008 at 09:29:27

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How many people have been on a holiday and been disappointed because it was not quite like the brochure?

How many people have bought a new house after visiting the show home and found their is not quite like the show home?

The point is I would love to stay at a re-developed GP or move to Walton Hall Park but if BK does not want to commit to this he does not have to!!

The one thing that comes out of this is that we do need to move on, be it at GP or Walton Hall Park or God forbid Kirkby or be left behind the like if Portsmouth, Villa, Blackburn or even QPR!!!

Investors want to invest in the future not the past and with a run down stadium that they are going to have to develop they will wait until the hard work is done prior to committing their millions.

Tom Hughes
55   Posted 25/03/2008 at 12:50:11

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Ralph,
You said:

"Investors want to invest in the future not the past and with a run down stadium that they are going to have to develop they will wait until the hard work is done prior to committing their millions."

How have Pompey got investors then? How have any number of others not already sitting in brand new stadia?
Truth is investors are looking at things that they may get a return on..... end of! They may be attracted by a solid brand, a good prospect with a large fanbase. No-one would say that the likes of Portsmouth and many others are a better prospect, past, present or future than EFC. They may also want to take charge...... that may be a much larger stumbling block than having to build a new stand or 2 at GP.
Jay Harris
56   Posted 25/03/2008 at 13:01:39

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Ralph
I?m not sure I agree with you and many others that "An investor will only be interested if we have a new stadium".

A lot of potential investors would, IMO, like to at least have some control of new stadium development.

Whilst I know a lot of people have been critical of the Yanks across the way they certainly had no problem wading in before any shiny new stadium was built and wanted to ensure that any new stadium was built around attracting people and making a statement.

John Hall and Freddy Shepherd bought into Newcastle before extensively redeveloping it and that is a smaller footprint than GP and is totally landlocked.

The new owners of West Ham are currently looking at a new stadium. Upton Park did not prevent them from investing. Similarly the new owners at White Hart Lane.

So I come back to a point I made last year. There needs to be a willing seller to interest potential buyers and despite the fact he?s "working 24/7 to get new investment" HE IS NOT A WILLING SELLER".

Now if I was interested in buying Everton the last people I would want to develop a new stadium would be "The Illusionist" and his mate "Big bonus".
Jay Harris
57   Posted 25/03/2008 at 13:23:35

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Dave
you really are something else.

You come on here calling a number of longstanding Evertonians "pigs in shit" for having a pint and/or going to the Chippy before the match,then come back with some half-arsed apology that was even more insulting, and then get upset about being called a condescending prick.

Remember "You reap what you sow".
Tim Davis
58   Posted 25/03/2008 at 13:26:11

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Interesting that people are bringing up the investment issue again, well I think the club will be very attractive when Kirkby is done and dusted so we?ll have no problem then, also if there was anyone interested right now i?m sure we?d see and hear about them all over the media ala DIC/Steve Morgan over the RS. For the moment though we have a much liked local ownership of the club and most fellow blues I know are happy enough with that - as am I.
Dave Wilson
59   Posted 25/03/2008 at 14:19:37

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Dave
I love this club, it is my biggest, my only passion, I can honestly say hand on heart with the exception of my nearest and dearest, it is the most important thing in my life
I would never wish harm on this club, but moving to Kirkby wouldnt t just be harmful, it would be fatal. I know thats just my view and there are people who feel just as passionate about the club with completely opposite views, they may even be proved right
wanting Kirkby to go belly up isnt wishing harm on the club, I believe its our only chance of survival and idoesnt make me the worst type of person
I mean its not like I called fellow blues "pigs in shit" and "pond life" is it ?
Michael Kenrick
60   Posted 25/03/2008 at 15:24:27

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Just so you readers know, if you haven?t guessed it already (sorry it took me so long!) this bloke "Tim Davis" is posting from the same IP Address as our old friend Gerrard Madden. Funny how his turn of phrase is rather similar: "we have a much liked local ownership of the club and most fellow blues I know are happy enough with that - as am I."

Despite what someone was saying earlier, it is strange how the stadium debate always brings out a few new names we have not seen before... As a reminder, do not post under different identities. Thank you.
Jay Harris
61   Posted 25/03/2008 at 15:59:32

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Well spotted Michael.

Its also interesting how this thread started with the "Lets move" brigade and they have faded away from the debate.

Obviously there are?nt that many CURRENT "Yes" voters using this site which?if true begs a question.

The only other conclusion I can draw is that a number of "Yes" voters are now doubting the wisdom of their vote because it seems to me to be about 80% in favour of NOT going to Kirkby.
Paul Gladwell
62   Posted 25/03/2008 at 16:18:46

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Said it before and will again: Is he a club plant?
On another note, I was reading a good article in 4-4-2 about Dixie and I saw the picture of his 60th goal with the Archiebald Leitch on the Bullens and it just made me realise the history that the old lady has and how few clubs have this now and in time would be envious if we still had it and they never, it is just something we MUST do everything to not let it go without a serious fight to keep it and if the board can muster £50 million plus towards Kirkby then that to me is enough to start the keeping of Goodison.
We need to progress but dont tell me it cannot be done at Goodison.
Arthur Jones
63   Posted 25/03/2008 at 16:34:18

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Dave Wallbank, have you actually read and understood what I have posted? Not once have I suggested you should support LFC. I disagreed with your post and gave the reasons for my objection. I also made my feelings known about your insults and shoddy apology. Not once have I objected to your right to have an opinion. Therefore I am not going to comment on your decision not to ?post on here again? ? that is your perogative; however, may I suggest that whenever you wish to offer an opinion, one on a subject that many people have alternative views about, don?t insult people you have never met and do not know and expect them to kow-tow to you. I?m not an idiot or a ?pig in shit' and certainly not ?pond life?. I object to being told to shut up... so when somebody on here called you a "condescending prick " that was a remark bought on by your own doing; hoisted by your own petard.
Peter Lee
64   Posted 25/03/2008 at 22:18:36

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It?s sad but understandable ? if supporting a football club as we do isn?t irrational then what is? ? to see good Evertonians ripping into each other over the ground debate.

We would all agree, I hesitate to suggest, that the facilities at Goodison are poor. We all have our own ways of working around them. There are no obvious ways of making matters better without a rebuild and as any builder will tell you starting from scratch is cheaper than changing what you?ve already got.

So building a new ground at Goodison is going to cost more than building a new ground elsewhere. Without a buyout (by whom?) and a massive increase in debt that comes with it the economics don?t make sense for either. Last year Man U made an operating profit of £42.5m Their interest payments were £42m and their transfer expenditure depends on who you believe. The net result is that they ended up in more debt than they started with.

An accountant who put the due diligence details together for the Liverpool loan, which is only 18 months by the way, told me that if any businessman was given £800m at a reasonable rate to invest he?d have to be barking to buy a football club.

The deal that both sets of yanks are waiting for, along with the arabs, is that which will allow individual clubs to negotiate the chance to sell their own TV rights, as in Spain. If that were to happen the only clubs with a market to sell to are, sadly, Man U and Liverpool. We must hope that other clubs act in concert to let them play each other 38 (or would it be 83?) times a season in empty stadiums the world over.

For Everton then the choices would appear to be staying where we are and largely as we are in the 1960s at best or buying into the Tesco deal if the resulting debt doesn?t hamstring the manager.

If we were looking to maximise matchday revenues then a new stadium is the answer. If we went for that we might in any event be disappointed to find that success doesn?t automatically follow the cash.

Man U were the wealthiest English club by a street for all of the 26 years when they won nothing but the odd FA cup and the second division championship.

Chelsea spent king?s ransoms but were successful in only two seasons and have yet to win the Champions? League.

In the years since Jamie Carragher made his debut Liverpool have spent who knows how much on more than 170 players and still come nowhere near winning the Premier League. My point here is that it?s managers that make the real difference. Ferguson and Wenger won?t be around for much longer and the special one has gone. The deadly duo of Houllier and Benitez haven?t been up to snuff but the Frenchman left far too soon for my liking and I hope the Spaniard stays for ever.

In David Moyes, Everton have someone who can make a difference although I?ve said elsewhere that he still has lessons to learn regarding tactics. It could well come down to living within our Goodison means for the foreseeable future or looking to a bigger increase in revenues that the only new ground on offer, Kirkby, could bring. If you were Moyes what would tempt you to sign the new contract? After all, without him (and Kenwright in my view) we?d have the best ground in the championship and all 20 000 of us wouldn?t be having an argument at all.

Robert Carney
65   Posted 25/03/2008 at 23:28:22

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Glad you have stumbled across the apologist who uses the name G Madden. The true Evertonian named Gerald who is well known around Goodison and the city on matchdays would love to meet him in a place he chooses.
I am also sure Maddocks is the same apologist.

Do his threads on other pages get deleted?

Robert Carney
66   Posted 25/03/2008 at 23:43:35

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Peter Lee, I do not know how many grounds you have visited, but I can assure you the facilities on offer are never what I would consider quality. They all sell the same shite beer, awful pies, tasteless pizzas, jumbo turd sausages, over priced coffee, tea, water at up to £5.00 per litre. Please let me know of the utopia in the premeir league, I have also visited championship clubs in my time and found the same shite on offer.

On a point of fact, we cannot find a true figure for the cost Kirkby. never mind the cost of re-building Goodison (no plan B). As of the latter, we have had least had contributions of independant architects and engineers saying that it is possible within the scope of projected cost of Kirkby (ie. £80 to £100 million mentioned in the minutes of the AGM ).

Re. the right to sell the indivual TV rights, common sense says this is a no-goer. The so called group of fourteen have disbanded whilst Platini comes up with a new format. Are the prem so-called big four going to play each other for the forseeable future. I think not. A league of some sort where they a get lions share is the most likely, fuck the majority. Let's all grow up and forget the hype generated by Sky. The love-child TV of Thatchers generation.

James McGlone
67   Posted 26/03/2008 at 12:05:42

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Peter Lee. Was there a point in there? You?re talking like Kirkby will cost us nothing when it?s now £100 million and rising.

It?s nothing to do with Liverpool or Man Utd - it?s about getting the punters in and them spending money to keep the club running. Do you really think 40,000 + will go to Kirkby? I don?t.
Ciarán McGlone
68   Posted 26/03/2008 at 12:00:51

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It seems this issue is as thorny as ever....

Being from Belfast, I don't get to as many games as I'd like, and therefore don't really qualify to offer an opinion on the moral rights and wrongs of the move.

But one thing is certain about this whole scenario... BK and Wyness have treated the fans with complete contempt... lies and propaganda that would have been enough to make me vote No, even if it had been a gold-plated stadium on the Albert Dock.

First it was free, then it was £50mill, now it's £120mill... First it was ours, now we?ll be paying rent...

And then we had the absolutely disgraceful blackmail attempt when Wyness told us we?d have no money for players if we didn't move (perpetrated by the author of the article on the basis of nothing other than sycophantic naivety!)... who does this lame-brain think he's kidding?

Not content with selling everything Everton own, he wants us to believe that we?d be quids in (with absolutely no assets) by accepting a massive mortgage on a stadium that wasn't ours with the addition of a few poxy executive boxes....

Mr Kenwright has been very quiet (deliberately IMO) during this whole issue... apparently happy to allow his money-sniffing rotweiller do all the talking...

If one thing has come out of this whole issue, it's that I wouldn't trust Wyness as far as I could throw him. And that goes for Bill too.... he's riding on the crest of Moyes results and I fear that will be enough to allow him to continue to mislead fans.

And let's be clear about this.... what Wyness does, Bill delegates.
Chris Briddon
69   Posted 26/03/2008 at 12:25:18

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The reason Yes voters don?t post on here very often is because there isn?t much fun in commenting just to be slagged off by devoted No voters all the time.
Yes voters are constantly accused of ignoring the club's history, being stupid / naive in believing what BIll & Keith tell them and any other claims I could mention.
A post earlier mentioned they didn?t want the prawn sandwich / Sky generation. Well unfortunately that?s where the money is, so ignore it if you like but don?t expect too many more European adventures as we will soon lag behind.

As for investment not being attracted to Kirkby ? it is the club not the location that attracts. Sponsors want something that will be on the TV all the time ? and they only show the inside of stadiums not the outside!

I will miss Goodison Park, but that doesn?t mean we have to stay there. I used to live in a 2-bed terraced house that I really liked, but that didn?t stop me moving to the 4-bedroom detatched that I now live in.
Tom Hughes
70   Posted 26/03/2008 at 12:38:12

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Peter Lee says:

"There are no obvious ways of making matters better without a rebuild and as any builder will tell you starting from scratch is cheaper than changing what you?ve already got."

Does that mean it would be cheaper for me to build a whole new house rather than just extend the house I already own? I don’t think so, not to mention the issue of location. It can be extremely costly to make additions to stadia, but it is still the cheapest and most common way to increase capacity, it also doesn’t require the initial vast outlay of a whole new stadium (Therefore, it’s dependant on how much credibility you put in the stadium for nothing scenario). It is how the great European superstadia developed, and how several have in this country.
Chris Stewart
71   Posted 26/03/2008 at 13:43:40

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Our average leage home gate this year is 36,452. There were a good load of empty blue seats on Saturday so why the clamour for a 40,000 stadium. There is the "if they build it they will come" mentality but does anyone truly think that?

OK so the beer may be shite, OK it may be difficult to get back in to town or on to the Drive (and that whole shutting the roads down is a nightmare) but where it counts is on the pitch IMHO.

It has to start there and develop thereafter... only a very few clubs can fit in to the business model that Wyness epsouses. Therein lies the problem ? square peg, round hole.
Colin Grierson
72   Posted 26/03/2008 at 12:17:48

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Its interesting to hear people spout about the issue being one that is not talked about any more. The same old posters etc.
I?ve never posted specifically about this debate as I am now an expat and obviously cant make the match.
However, absolutely every one of my mates who still go to the game week in week out are opposed to Kirkby and are mystified as to why anybody cant see the damage it will do to the club.

Dave Wallbank
"The move to Kirkby is a bold/brave (educated) gamble."
How ?educated? are you exactly? If you are as well educated as you are condescending, then you must have a 1st from Oxford. You deserve all the stick you get mate. I hope you post on here again as we all deserve our say; just don?t be pompous. It's possible to have a degree and to like to eat chips with black bits on and drink piss beer. Its also possible that you and the other ?yes? voters are wrong. Open your mind.
Peter Lee
73   Posted 26/03/2008 at 15:19:54

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Robert (Carney) I started counting and lost count at 37. That didn?t include rugby stadiums and cricket grounds.

I don?t drink the beer or buy the food at Goodison or in the surrounding area if I can avoid it. Nothing to do with Walton as an area I might add, I was born there. I spend most of my money in town drinking decent ale and eating at a reasonable price and then get a taxi to the ground for 2.45 or whatever.

My point there would be that if the facilities were better I?d be happy to spend that money in the stadium.

James (Mc Glone) there were a number of points in what I said.

Building stadia costs a fortune. Even the most financially successful club in the country, which didn?t need to pay for a new stadium, can?t reduce its debts and it?s screwed its fans for all it can get.

Staying at Goodison or moving to Kirkby both represent gambles on the future.

Over the years loads of money hasn?t guaranteed success but great managers have. Moyes is no fool and he probably knows more than we do and will want to know more before committing himself to the club longer term. If he does he?s obviously up for whatever plans the board have shared. That should tell us something.

Tom (Hughes) you?re absolutely right if you?re extending your kitchen into your garden, you might just be right if your building a two storey extension and living with awkward access, loss of your garden, poor light and so on. It depends upon how much compromise you can live with.

Apply ?extension? to the Bullen?s Road. When they put the ?new? roof on years ago the whole structure needed strengthening to cope with removing half of the supporting pillars. Can you remember what it was like with twice as many obstructed views? There is no way that it can be ?extended?. It would need to be demolished and rebuilt. That has got to cost more than building the same new facility on a green/brownfield site. The logical conclusion to that is that if we are really going to rebuild Goodison rather than accept a piecemeal and affordable compromise (definition?) it?s still going to cost hundreds of millions.

Who’s going to pay? How will we pay off the debt? How much would you expect your season ticket to cost eventually?

You are right about the great European stadia, yes they have very often been extended and rebuilt, sometimes wholesale. Problem is the clubs didn?t pay for any of it. The municipalities generally did this aided by central government cash when major international championships came around.

Can?t see Liverpool City Council tipping the money up somehow.

People have assumed from what I?ve said that I?m for Kirkby. From the choices on offer and what I know so far I am. I am the only person I know who goes the game who is.

However I agree with everyone else who I?ve spoken with about this who thinks that a shared stadium, that?s what they do in lots of European cities, is the only sane solution.

?But we?re different, we?re scousers!? Yeh.

Just thought I?d start another argument.
Jay Harris
74   Posted 26/03/2008 at 17:41:19

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Chris Briddon
your comparison is awful:

GP to Kirkby sheep shed is not comparable to moving from a 2 bed terrace to a 4 bed detached.

Secondly I bet you wouldnt have moved to a 4 bed detached in Kirkby(with all due respect to all Kirkbyites)

To all other ?YES" camp it became fashionable to build new stadiums when Europe was awash with Grants,hence the Kings Dock (A Truly world class stadium with proper infrastructure)development which would have cost a dam sight less than Kirkby because of the Grant Support.

Now there is virtually no support there is no logic to building a new stadium when you have a perfectly suitable one to renovate.

Points to observe:

Kirkby is not free.

Tesco?s are not giving us any money for Kirkby.

The land (unlike GP) will not be ours.

GP is not about to fall down or be shut down.

Poor quality beer and food is the same wherever you go.

The transport and amenities infrastructure is nowhere near sufficient in Kirkby.

Plenty of experts,including Trevor Skempton who helped the rebuild of Newcastle?s ground,have already set out achievable and cost effective plans for GP?s development which would end up a far more attractive stadium than Kirkby.

We already have the pitch and 75%of GP is good enough for the next few years.

WHERE IS THE LOGIC IN JUMPING IN TO THE UNKNOWN WITH "THE ILLUSIONIST" AND HIS SIDEKICK "BIG BONUS"
Tom Hughes
75   Posted 26/03/2008 at 17:27:24

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Peter,
I assure you a new tier can be built behind the Bullens rd to extend the upper tier by at least 20 rows (approx 5,000 new seats at approx £2-3k per seat). By even more if a pitch move away from the stand is possible shoud the mainstand be redeveloped slightly displaced from its current location. This would be an independently supported structure that would not conflict with the structural integrity the existing stand. This represents just one method of increasing capacity at GP, and has been applied to many stadia redevelopments (Anfield has 3 alone, Old Trafford, St James, Stadium of Light and Stamford Bridge to name a few more). Alternatively (or aswell as), the Parkend could be turned into a monster single-tier end stand by extending its profile by another 40 rows (6,000 new seats again at £2-3k per seat) to produce something akin to the South tribune at Dortmund, or building an entirely new Double-decker to knit into the Bullens. In otherwords that demonstrates in simplest terms that extending GP to the capacity proposed for Kirkby will cost considerably less than building a complete new stadium.

Manchester Utd’s financial problems don’t stem from redeveloping Old trafford in situ, just the way in which they were sold. My reference to the Major European stadia was to illustrate the fact that redevelopment can take place in situ which you inferred was either not physically possible or financially viable (not all European stadia are municipally owned), and is infact beneficial if you intend to utilise or indeed preserve/highlight elements of the existing structure for their iconic value.
Peter Lee
76   Posted 26/03/2008 at 18:27:26

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Tom,

If it were just a question of capacity then I agree with you about additions to the Park End.

The idea of building anything behind or in front of the Bullens Road Stand can’t be feasible, its 70+ years old. The examples you quoted were relatively modern steel and concrete structures, the Kemlyn Road was built in the 60’s and that’s the oldest. I don’t think you’d get much support from the patrons of the Centenary Stand for that as a great solution. The wobblies in the upper Anfield Road don’t like that much either.

The Lower Bullens would remain pillared whatever you did. The last time I was in there the most common cry was "Did anyone see what happened?"

Your costs are out considerably too I reckon. Way back when, pre Albert Dock, stadia were coming in at £1000 a seat plus internal fitting out. Liverpool worked on that originally and we’ve seen their costs rise to £300m, that’s £5000 a seat.

Still, if adding another 5000 seats is all we want then we could certainly borrow £25m without too much pain but given that we don’t fill what we have where would the extra revenue come from? That’s the point about better facilities - to sell us stuff we might want to buy with conditions we might actually enjoy doing it in. That needs useable space and we don’t have that within the existing volumes of the stands that we have.
Rob McFawn
77   Posted 26/03/2008 at 19:01:25

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I would just like to add a huge LOL to the one Gerard Madden, sorry I mean Tim Davis, afforded earlier in this thread.

You haven?t really got a wife and kids have you ?Ged?? You were lying weren?t you ?Tim??

LOL

Get back over to skyscraper city ?hattie_08?, and icliverpool ?ablue?. Good lord, you?ve got more names than a phone book!! Pathetic.
Tom Hughes
78   Posted 26/03/2008 at 21:09:11

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Peter,
I don’t want you to misunderstand my main point here...... It is that basically ONE option could be to preserve/enhance one or both of our historic stands increasing capacity and potential income should demand be there. Then to completely remodel/redevelop the other two sides when success/finance allows to create a stadium that combines new with old. Liverpool went out of their way to ensure their new stadium reflects the old one, we would have the real thing

By the way contrary to local myth the Bullens IS a steel and concrete structure. There are no wooden structural elements just treads and risers which can readily be replaced as they have at Ibrox I believe.

Also, a basic single tier no frills stand can still be built at just over £1,000 per seat, the Park end was originally substantially less than that, the Stadium of light was even built at only a few hundred pounds per seat. The proposed Kirkby stadium itself will be at £2-3k per seat. Liverpool’s is so expensive due to having 4 different stands with complex structural elements, multi-tier format with high specification and substantial lounges on several levels, a far cry from what I am proposing. You say you cannot add to old structures.... The mainstand at Anfield (1905) and Old Trafford even (1910) was extended precisely in this way, and still exist and function normally, with the wobbly stand perhaps telling us that new isn’t always best. I’m not saying it is always ideal, but it is the cheapest way to extend, and as I have demonstrated the most common method adopted. There are good and bad examples. As far as Quality of view is concerned, you should not be surprised to know that the upper Bullens affords the patrons of the front few rows some of the best views at any football ground. Viewing distances and angles are the match of anything at the newer stadia (no upper tier seats are anything like as close to the action at say the Emirates). The "back of house" provision would be increased and much enhanced by the extension with upto 4 times the concourse area, more if taken over 2 levels. In the Lower tier, the worst affected obstructions will go due to stopping at the second row of columns, and turning the space behind into circulation and amenities, reducing the number of obstructed views dramatically. This reprofiled stand could also be slightly steeper than at present, and in a continuous single terrace giving 3 new unobstructed rows in the pathway at the back of the paddock alone. The significant increase in capacity elsewhere would allow any remaining obstructed views to be given a token value (say £5) to be sold only on matchdays or when all others are sold out or given to school kids etc. I can guarantee you there would be no shortage of takers, obstruction or not. As an aside, perhaps this whole tier and the lower Gwladys could revert to non-reserved seats to try to recreate the terrace culture of getting in early to get your "spec" with your mates, with consequent improvements to atmosphere.
Peter Lee
79   Posted 26/03/2008 at 23:17:17

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Tom

Your understanding of these issues is strong and well-informed, let?s go with it.

I still think that steel prices put your costs out a long way and if you start changing the Bullens underneath it won?t be cheap and you?ve not costed it. It would also need a new roof that would cover the new and existing so that would increase the cost.

Derby, Middlesborough and Sunderland are contemporary and built in the same modular way. They were also built with considerable grant aid. Anyway, anything priced now will likely double in three years unless there?s a massive slump in China.

The hype about the new Anfield being different to retain the traditions etc., etc, was all bull. It was to maximise space given the footprint. A concave fronted stand isn?t part of the Anfield tradition but I think it might have something to do with certain covenants that apply. Incidentally, I?m told that during due diligence it emerged that the only way to give the required capacity was to dig down to give a playing surface 8 metres below ground level. The US architects hadn?t a cost for that, hence the problem over banks queuing to give the yanks a loan in September.

?What?s it going to cost to dig out, transport and dump 15 000 cubic metres of sandstone??

?Duh?

Suppose that the Bullens was extended as you suggest, it would need to be bigger to take account of the seats taken out aft of the second row of pillars, say 7000 seats, single tier but starting 10m above ground so not cheapest. The Park End could be extended in the same way you have suggested again single tier but in the air, or with a second tier or both. Let?s say that we put another 7000 seats into that. I hate sitting behind the goal at low level but lots of people love it and at higher elevations I?ve been known to think I could see what was going on.

The Main Stand and the lower Gwladys St could be stopped off at the second row of pillars in the former and at the front edge of the upper Gwladys. The spaces behind could be given to corporate hospitality and to improved facilities generally.

I suspect that we?d end up with about the same number of seats and lots more ?revenue generating spaces? and a better deal for the average fan in terms of facilities.

Costs?

14000 seats at somewhere between £2000 and £5000 so £28 - £70m
Internal fittings for those, I haven?t a clue.
Remodelling of the existing spaces to give more corporate and more comfortable circulation sales spaces, no idea.

Overall costs are guesswork for me, maybe you and others can help.

A word of caution though. We aren?t anywhere near ManU?s league in terms of generating profit. They couldn?t survive in one of their most successful seasons without increasing debt. We couldn?t hope to generate enough surplus from a 40 000 seater to pay off, say, £10m interest above what we already pay, unless prices soar. If we regularly get Champions’ League money most will go to the players’ new contracts.

In summary, moving and staying both present gambles. In terms of turning Everton into a side able to compete for the glittering prizes we can?t be sure that either will or won?t help to do that. My final, original point, that about Moyes and how he sees the future if the club, remains for now the only critical issue. If he is assured that the necessary finance to support the team building we need can be provided better through one approach rather than the other, and that?s the one being pursued, then I suspect he will sign a good long contract. If he isn?t, he won?t. The next months will tell.
Colin Grierson
80   Posted 27/03/2008 at 09:05:01

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Unless the stadium is a sell out every week, why would we want to consider the expansion of available capacity?
I fully understand the concept of speculation and accumulation but what I fail to see is where the extra fan base is going to come from.
Even if we have a modicum of success over the next few years and pick up some trophies, I cant see that it will have new supporters beating a path to GP or Kirkby to watch their new heroes, at least not enough to consider spending the amount of money it will cost to redevelop.
We are not being forced into a move anywhere by anyone other than the current owner.
It is, as Peter quite rightly points out, a gamble if we move and if we don’t.
Now I wonder how many of the YES voters actually WANT to move. If they were given the stark choice of staying and gambling or moving and gambling what would they choose?
It would take years of success at PL and CL level to turn the next generation of football supporters into Everton fans. Only then could we compete with the globally supported Big 2 (RS and Manu).
Take the Ski from Chelski and they become just another well supported London club like Arsenal. Unable to afford the players contract fees and wages to compete for the top honours in Europe consistently and reliant on the skill in the transfer market of their managers.
Moyes is doing a fantastic job and long may it continue. If we start to challenge for the top spot in the Prem then lets consider that the future may require greater capcity. Until then lets stick with what we have got. Nobody will stop going to GP because its not up to scratch! By the same token you wont get a new fan base on the basis that the facilities are good! Football just doesnt work like that.

Would you start supporting a club cos the bogs were nice and the food was a bit special.
What first attracted you to the blues? If your old enough, was it the state of the art facilities, envied across the land? Or was it the history of the team?

If we have to gamble, my money is on GP as Kirkby imho spells doom.
Chris Briddon
81   Posted 27/03/2008 at 12:00:45

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All these wonderful ideas of re-developing Goodison are missing the point somewhat.

Even if it can be done (which I am yet to be convinced of, its just a case of which expert you believe!) It won’t be much cheaper, and you have to tkae into account lost revenues whilst it is being developed. It took ages to build the Park End stand so to re-develop any of the ground woudl involve REDUCING capacity by up to10,000 (don’t know precise number so guessing) a season for a few years, whils you rebuild the whole ground.

Kirkby also isn’t about a bigger stadium its about a more commercial stadium - more exec boxes, conference facilities etc (at Goodison at the moment we have a restaurant in a tent in the car park!)

As for the 2-bed to detached comparison - it wasn’t th size that was the point. It was the changing practicalities. I can like the old but realise that I need to move to the new to progress
Ciarán McGlone
82   Posted 27/03/2008 at 12:31:29

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Has anybody actually considered the future in this whole sorry saga? If we move to kirkby, what happens if we have to move after that.?

As we?ll have absolutely no assets, apart from the players... how exactly do we facilitate a move in those circumstances?

We?d be off the housing ladder...for want of a better analogy.
Peter Benson
83   Posted 27/03/2008 at 12:21:47

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Dave, you are right when you say that that Goodison Park is far too silent at times, this is due to the design of the Lower Gwladys Street restricting fans from standing up in front of their seat due to obstructed views at the back.

It is also due to the angles and material of the underside of the Upper Gwladys not being the best to project the songs out to the fans in the 41 rows of seats.

Now any redevelopment of Goodison or for that matter an new stadium elsewhere should be looking to finally eradicate those problems and finally give us an End Stand or two to be proud of.

So please tell me, how is putting an executive box directly behind where we should be wanting our singers to go, ie at the back of the lower tier behind the goal (of which only has 30 rows of seats), which yet again will put them off from standing in front of their seats, going to improve the atmosphere? Not only that but the only form of amplification for them is an entire tier above them? The lack of research is amazingly poor.
Tom Hughes
84   Posted 27/03/2008 at 13:33:46

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Chris,
For the option I outlined there need be no drop in capacity below the current levels. Stadium construction in the UK has moved on apace since the Park end was done, and in anycase that was only unuseable for a few months at the end of the season that the old stand was demolished. Does that really merit upping sticks and gambling our whole future at an unproven out-of-town site, and non-descript stadium? Also, Ipswich showed that double-deckers can be built with their lower tiers in commission in just a close season or so, if that was the redevlopment format chosen. Building a stand behind an existing one as proposed for the Bullens means that far from being a drop there will be a painless increase.

Personally, I don’t believe we need 50,000 seats in an instant. A few thousand new totally unobstructed seats, and some new exec provision would suffice for now. That could take place either on the Bullens side or at the Park end or both. A new atmospheric vast end stand might transform our support and really ensure a good atmosphere, and do for us what the Kop did for them in the 60’s enticing many new (less regular) fans. There is nothing unusual or prohibitive in these suggestions, just what has been achieved elsewhere.

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