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Moyes: Another six years?

By John Doolan :  20/04/2008 :  Comments (68) :
David Moyes's latest assessment of how long it will take to break into the top four comes as no surprise but it goes a long way to explaining why, despite his good record, he remains unloved by some Blues.

I have no problem with the odd dose of reality, although Davey strangely gets more 'realistic' as the season end aproaches, but his real motive is to lower expectations in order to extend his job tenure and to remind everyone how lucky we are to have him.

It's been said before but his relationship with his Chairman and a large number of Everton fans is extremely unhealthy. Some supporters cling to Moyes like they have found a lifeboat in a strormy sea and refuse to contemplate any other future in spite of the shite football we have had to endure for 90% of his tenure. And Kenwright can't believe he has stumbled across a manager who demands so little money and so in return is delighted to guarantee him a job for life with absolutely no criticism.

In reality, the Everton job is as good as it gets for Moyes and allowing him to work under no pressure will end in tears. He will never be offered a top job because.... well, that's obvious isnt it? ? and he will never get the Newcastle or Spurs jobs because their fans would not tolerate the sheer tedium. His options are limited to the old firm, an admission of stepping down a league, or a sideways move such as City.

Another guaranteed six years would be justified if there was real evidence that he was learning from his mistakes. However, for six years on the run, all he has demonstrated is that he is unable to put out a team which can produce the goods in the final third of the season when the pressure is on. His appalling cup record confirms that he folds when the pressure comes on and it is surely no co-incidence that the Uefa Cup 'everyone qualifies league format' suited him down to the ground.

My message to Moyes is forget about that self-serving shite about another six years and step up to the plate againsts Villa instead. Try to inspire the team and don't (as you did against Liverpool) tell them in advance that, no matter what happens, it has been a great season ? for me that story really sums up the man.

What's really depressing is that if its all goes tits up next Sunday then within minutes we will be being told by the deluded that all is well and guess what? ? Yes, he is still young and still learning!

Reader Comments

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Andrew Hicks
1   Posted 20/04/2008 at 21:29:01

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John, is this your attempt to wind people up? I found myself getting pretty irritated with your assesment of Moyes but then realized that you can’t possibly really believe in what your saying. Not gonna fall for it....IMWT.
Dennis Patterson
2   Posted 20/04/2008 at 21:31:41

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I fear the pro-Moyes brigade will lambast you for this boyo, but rest assured, you have my full backing with this wonderful article...

Nil satis nisi optimum is something I have proudly engraved on my body... it's a pity the ginger-loving tree-hugging fans that defend him, don't seem to know its true meaning...

Moyes out... Billic in....
Anthony Newell
3   Posted 20/04/2008 at 21:40:33

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John - fully agree with you. It was 5 years, now it?s bloody six! But I would really like a thorough explanation of the rationale behind this statement as where will sides like Spurs, Villa, City etc be in six years time, not to mention the big three? The fact, is we?ll always be playing catch up unless we can persuade a big hitter to come in with big investment and they will undoubtedly want to change the manager too and I for one would have no qualms with that.

Until then, it?s make do and mend with a brand of football that is workmanlike, turgid and lacks any class or quality. Until then, it?s wave goodbye to the three points in those big games.

I can understand where Moyes is coming from but he?s trying to manage fans expectations down and I don?t like that. Six years is fucking unacceptable in by book as is, I?ll be happy to put up and shut up if you want me.

Make a fucking stand man and demand investment so we can push on instead of settling for mediocrity. Sounds like you're just happy picking up your wage cheque and just inflicting more fucking misery on us!

Steve Dooley
4   Posted 20/04/2008 at 21:35:17

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Unbelievable. This sort of drivel is symptomatic of this negative site. Just think back a few years to the WS era when we were usually crossing our fingers and hopng for 40 points at this stage of the season. This year we have had a real chance of fourth, but a combination of injuries, poor ref decisions, a smallish squad and a good european campaign have taken their toll. Its been the most enjoyable season for years and the European games were superb.
Guy McEvoy
5   Posted 20/04/2008 at 22:35:32

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It’s simple: Before Moyes, we measured ’success’ as not being relegated - now we would define ’failure’ as not qualifying for Europe. That is a six year leap. He’s delivered. Let the momentum role through its peaks and troughs.
Pete Hall
6   Posted 20/04/2008 at 22:25:47

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I think its such a shame. Toffeeweb is such a good site on the surface, great news coverage, great links, all in all a handy reference point for us fans.

However, too much of what appears on this site is in the vein of this article. I think the sort of indignant carping fans who congregate here give Evertonians a bad name. Its like you are can’t resist always looking for something rotten under a rock.

How can you slam David Moyes for what has been the best season for ages? Your expectations obviously must have been honed on the nearly ten solid years of relegation dogfights which preceded him. He’s really taken the club down. Yeah right.

I, for one, am happy to see how it goes over the next few years. I’ve seen enough of one hit wonders (95 for instance) and think the slow steady progress we are now making is far preferable.

Mike Price
7   Posted 20/04/2008 at 23:07:34

Report abuse on. He does it all the time and really the big 4 are the perfect excuse. However, the sporadic decent performances this season where a few of the players actually passed to each other have lots of fans deluding themselves.

He is an efficient manager who can grind out safety each year but the style of play, lack of belief in skill and in taking chances will always limit us. If you want dire football, Premiership survival, possibly 6th but just as likely to be 14th next year then he is your man.

He is clearly managing expectations and securing his future.... if he is so good why does no-one else ever want him? He is perfect for a yo-yo team who?s only ambition is to maintain Premiership status. I?m dreading him signing another contract with us and the only possible ?out? is Celtic where the majority of fans dont appear too keen either.

The ?remember the Walter years? brigade need to realise that, although we have better players and so don't get threatened with relegation, Moyes has spent a fortune on them and we still play the same defensive, safety first, dire crap that he will always gravitate too. Until he goes our best hope is a few piss-ups in Europe until a half decent skillful team embarasses us, and to be cannon fodder for the big boys...

I still just cant get my head around why so many people think so much of him... maybe it's those very well managed expectations?

Alex Jones
8   Posted 20/04/2008 at 23:36:50

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This is a fans article, not the opinion of
David Williams
9   Posted 21/04/2008 at 00:41:32

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I have the utmost respect for David Moyes. He is a man you can count on. If you were going into battle David Moyes would be a sterling man to have beside you.

I have not given up on him being the new ’Ferguson’, but we now need something David Moyes alone cannot deliver. The budget to buy and blend better players with the one’s we already have.

We peaked this season at Man City. That display was almost flawless. Our control of the game and the passing that night was mighty impressive.

To rise above that and do it against those with money to burn and squads far more resilient than ours is the next, and potentially impossible, hurdle.

If the investment matches his hunger and he then fails to embrace totally the ’School of Science’ approach he will have been found out.

Until then I see no better manager of our club than the Man who has lifted us into the realms of being ’gutted’ by finishing one or two places behind our free spending, diving, cheating, referee loved, american franchise, "worse fans in Europe" neighbours.

And by the way, Kirkby my Arse! You avin that Bill? Sub standard, low quality location with low quality sub standard transport links???

£78 million (@ current steel and construction preices) input for a brand such as Everton Football Club to Boost the name of Knowsley worldwide???

Do me a favour and come up with plans B,C & Zee pronto.
Glen Strachan
10   Posted 21/04/2008 at 01:41:26

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One thing is very clear , John: David Moyes is much smarter than many give him credit for being. He has one of the best jobs in football.

There is only one target for David and the lads this year as there will be in the next six. So long as Everton are comfortably clear of relegation, the season is a success.

We will finish in the top ten of the best league in Britain. We have been in that Premier League top half (unlike big clubs like Newcastle and Tottenham) all season and even won three of our six domestic cup ties and got to the last 16 of the Uefa Cup - a run that was the club?s best European performance since that night in Rotterdam long, long ago.

Much is being written about qualifying for Europe again but there must be some value in a nice quiet season in 2008-09 with none of this cup-tie pressure and overseas trips and we will see the squad develop some more. We can safely leave all that kind of over-blown Euro nonsense to our old red chums in Stanley Park.

A nice series of Premier League games lies ahead with Moyes going head to head against three of the great football managers.

Don?t be bitter. Life around Goodison is good and it might even get better in a few years time. Be patient! Thanks for another top ten finish, lads.
Jason Lam
11   Posted 21/04/2008 at 06:46:33

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Six years to break into the top 4? Like the top4 are gonna be stagnant during those six years.

Moyes doesn’t need 6 years, he needs silverware to keep his job. We will eventually boo him out of Goodison (or Kirkby wherever). To get fed up with the same faces is only human nature.
Derek Thomas
12   Posted 21/04/2008 at 06:46:19

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Spot on John Doolan, you and Marshy are actually saying the same thing but yours comes across nicer, memo to self there Tony. Sometimes it ain’t what you say but the way that you say it, spoonful of sugar etc.

I think I remember reading some where that the Club budget for a 10th place finish, which comes out as 30mill sky money.

Now it is obvious to me that Moyes will only get more or less half of this, the rest will be ring fenced for the 78mill, which will no doubt increase as the years go on to 90 -100 mill, think of a number.

Now for the ’X’ yr plan 6yrs is now the new 5yrs

Simple really 6 X 15ish mill for Moyes, 6 X 15ish mill for the Kirkbydome kitty. The last 2 seasons 6th and ?th have been similar to the Years of plenty in Bill Amazing technicolour Dreamcoat show. nice bonuses all round eh lads.

So it’s more of the dame 1 or 2 players at 7 or so mill or 1 at 12 or 13 mill and some try before you buy loaners ( Dave’s Scottish carefulness at work there ).

6 years and we’ll be there or there abouts, hopefully?? with 6 or 8 much better players.

But in 2014, that 10m or so years years since he signed Yobo who will have fell off the Squad sheet Yobo Cahill Aretea??? by 2014, That of course assumes no Koldrups, Beattie’s or AvdM’s.

You don’t often get what you deserve, we more than anybody should know that one off by heart, but the fact is...YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET.

This all ties in well with the Mid level stadium ethos, we will get a mid level team coached in midlevel tactics by a mid level manager, to mid level cup runs, appointed by a top level Bullshitter.

And if we are really unlucky we will, after all that, get another mid level 6 yrs.

This last 21 yrs since 1987 has been one long mid life crisis.

Talk about Fair Well My Lovely, we are heading for the Long Goodbye followed by the Big Sleep.
Steven Khlaim
13   Posted 21/04/2008 at 09:05:50

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Without substantial amount of Money, dont even bother of progressing! Six yrs? More like Sixty years! "New"Newcastle,perhaps?
Paul Mc
14   Posted 21/04/2008 at 08:35:22

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It’s unbelieveable that rants like that actually get any support whatsoever - just goes to shout that there’s nowt so queer as folk ! It amazes me how blinkered and delusional some people can be, and what short memories they can have. You obviously don’t remember the way things were - and not just for the last couple of months - under Walter Smith, but for most of his tenure. Rome wasn’t built in a day, an year upon year, the "big 4" have spent more and more and got better and better - how we are even within touching distance of them is an absolute minor miracle - and believe me, there is only ONE man responsible for that. I still maintain that there is not another manager that I can think of (and I include the likes of Ferguson in Wenger in this) that could have taken us from where we were in March 2002 to where we are now in April 2008, given the resources he has been provided with - not a single one. I wouldn’t have had anyone else in charge and nor would I now - I’m not blind to his failings - of course he has them, but, to my mind, he seems to learn from them. As has been said above, David Moyes has MORE than delivered and as for someone quoting our motto - the man might as well have it engraved on his heart - he is the one person at the club (certainly when you consider the Kirkby travesty) that I think truly believes and aspires to it as we fans do (albeit some with more degrees of realism than others !) In Moyes We Trust ? Damned right - he has earned it and they’re still no-one else I would rather have at the helm.
Tim Michael
15   Posted 21/04/2008 at 09:33:01

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Usual crap article on Toffeeweb by a "fan". Best season we’ve had in years, most points in a Premier league season (unless we cock up) and some of the most attractive football under Moyes. Does anybody remember the crap game under Kendall first time round vs Coventry when only 8000 turned up? If you do, then you will realise the difference. If you don’t, stop whinging coz those were REAL crap days. Wake up!!!! Give him the chance
ian tunny
16   Posted 21/04/2008 at 09:38:49

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As long as we are moving forward rather than moving backwards like a lot of other teams, thats the way i look at it. There arnt many managers that could have taken on such a poor everton side and turned it round in such a big way. Its just common sense that hes going to struggle to win a cup so does every team outside the top 4. Only a hand full of teams hav done it in the last 10 years we are getting closer with decent runs in the league cup and UEFA so i think you should get off the managers back its clear for all to see what Moyes has achieved with limited resources. Even looking at the team now which has improved dramaticaly since Moyes arrived i still think we are over achieving which is thanks to Moyes. If you compare our team with big spenders spurs Newcastle, west ham and a few others its hard to believe that we could have been challenging for that 4th spot but for injuries and bad luck.
Steve Rewth
17   Posted 21/04/2008 at 09:22:38

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All this is fanciful froth. Its our underlying problems that are holding us back. Our finances are still shot, despite all the spin from KW. We have no investors or signs of any, eh BK despite your "tireless 24/7 quest" (LOL). We have a Chairman and board delighted to be out of perennial relegation dogfights but unable to kick on from where we are now. I’m no IMWT but Moyes is about as good as we can attract or afford. Since when was there ever an orderly queue outside GP to manage us other than by some aspiring championship manager blind to our lack of resources? Billic to drop everything to take us on!? ... get real. Much as it pains to admit it Moyes and the club are a match - he can’t take us much further and the club couldn’t afford to go there even if he could. Both seem resigned to pretend otherwise. But as things stand I’d rather us treading water this end of the league than at the other.
carl roper
18   Posted 21/04/2008 at 09:53:36

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This article is really utter drivel. Warped and prejudiced opinion always gets in the way of any attempt at serious anlaysis.

If you didnt know otherwise, you’d think that John had penned his piece in the light of a mid to lower table finish. But hey, lets not let the facts of THIS season, get in the way hey John?.

We are currently FIFTH, yes lets remind ourselves again, FIFTH in the league with the HIGHEST points total we’ve accumulated since the start of the Premier League.

If we stay there, thats the highest that we can seriously possibly expect to finish. If we dont, it will be dissapointing ( a sign of progress in itself) but there is mitigation. The loss of Cahill, Arteta and Osman cant be discounted (well it can as many correspondents on here demonstrate, but you see my point).

Moyes isnt perfect and has made mistakes - no manager is or doesnt. But I detect something else here and thats a hang up we have caused by the trials and tribulations of our neighbours.

Is it a coincidence that the anguish of Evertonians recently has increased in parallel with Liverpool’s progress in the Champions League? Maybe, maybe not.

C’mon Evertonians, this has been a good season and could be even better with a final flourish. As for the other shower, they’ve really nothing to do with us

Stephen Stuart
19   Posted 21/04/2008 at 10:36:18

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Good article, in a similar vein to many previous posts. It is a real concern that many fans can’t see beyond the immediate and chose to hold a somewhat romanticised view of the club, it’s management and team.
Jack Baker
20   Posted 21/04/2008 at 10:29:15

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You anti-Moyes brigade with your "Everton deserve better, nil satis nisi optimum" and "he?s not good enough" whinging really make me laugh.

On the one hand you all assert Everton are too good for him and on the other "the Everton job is about as good as it get's for Moyes" and we don?t attract decent managers (and why is that?) so have to make do with him. I think you lot need the reality check here.

We are a grand old club of the league with a proud and distinguished past. We burned our boats ourselves (with a little help from our red neighbours of course) failing to capitalise on Howard Kendall?s success. after that, if you have forgotten, the club went into freefall.

Have you forgotten the early nineties, Wimbledon, Coventry, Joe Royle; and talk about yo-yo football. If you think the ride we are on now is less satisfactory than Everton?s dismal display in the Uefa Cup in 95/96 then you truly are imbecilic. Howard Kendall was the eighties, this is the 21st century. Its time to move on. You know like we are always telling RS fans - they have no god given right to win just because of their past success.

For the first time since I started going to Everton, this season I feel we?ve a team to be proud of. It's about time some of you started to realise what they are achieving, how they are performing the gravity defying feat of being so high in the league against the odds and having a more than respectable League Cup run and fantastic Uefa Cup run. And the reason they have managed it is fantastic management whatever you say. And with the best will in the world they are not the greatest players as you lot are always so quick to point out. So be glad they have toiled for that blue shirt, which for me is half the meaning of our club?s motto.

Ciarán McGlone
21   Posted 21/04/2008 at 10:55:59

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Point of order derek..

Our Sky money for this season will be well in excess of £ this is the first year of the 3-year foreign tv contract.
Mark Pendleton
22   Posted 21/04/2008 at 11:09:31

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No pressure? I believe that Moyes puts himself under more pressure than many a chairman would place him under. The guy wants to succeed and wants to achieve. No, he’s not likely to be given another top job with Chelski-type riches but it’s not because of his abilities, it’s because such clubs want immediate success and therefore look to cherry pick managers who’ve already won a handful of European trophies.

Moyes is aware of the above and i also believe is acutely aware that other clubs would shove him out of the door after half a dozen bad games as easily as they brought him in. Not a sign he can have an easy life at Everton, more because we’re all in it for the long haul and this approach has reaped bigger dividends than at most other clubs. It’s no coincidence that the current top 5 includes the 3 longest serving managers.

I also think Moyes is being very optimistic about breaking into the top 4 in 5 or 6 years as with the current entry barriers it’s almost improssible (and he means to do it on a consistent basis). This season, when most of the squad has been available we’ve played some good football. Very good football at times. We are better now and with a better squad than for some time. A few good additions this summer and we’ll improve next year i’ve no doubt. Remember who has brought the likes of Arteta, Howard, Cahill, Lescott, Yakubu, Yobo and Pienaar to this club? Players who are largely the best we’ve had since the halcyon days of the 80’s. Sometimes I fear we forget this. And i’m not saying we should accept mediocrity, i’m just saying that we should appreciate that we’ve managed to fairly consistently punch above our weight, something which is allowing us proper foundations to perform better on a far more consistent basis. We should be supporting the team, the manager and the board and proving many fans of opposing teams right in that we’re a proper club going about things the proper way. Many other fans are envious of EFC, let’s not act like a bunch of impetuous children and spoil it all.
Iain McWilliam
23   Posted 21/04/2008 at 11:38:45

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Best Moyes article I've read on this site John!

Of course you will now have to put up with the usual ?You?re not a proper Evertonian? bollox from now on from the Moyes fundamentalists. In some ways I think showing total support of his time in charge is a form of self flagellation...the worse the pain gets watching another inept performance, the more defiant they get and they feel a better fan for it!
Lee Molton
24   Posted 21/04/2008 at 12:29:32

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Another article having a snipe at David Moyes, unbelievable! It has been our best season for many a year, semi-final of Carling Cup, last 16 of UEFA Cup and 5th in the League with 3 games to go. How can people moan? I think a reality check is needed for some people. Who would do a better job than David Moyes? Who would you want to be our manager instead? Let’s get behind the team this week and beat Aston Villa to qualify for UEFA Cup for 2nd season running - when was the last time that happened??
Dave Jeanrenaud
25   Posted 21/04/2008 at 12:30:20

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@ Dennis Patterson

Bilic!!? You are joking right? Did we not line his pockets enough during his playing contract?

Why not bring Big Duncan in as first team coach whilst we are at it?
Michael Brien
26   Posted 21/04/2008 at 11:51:50

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I am quite frankly appalled at some of the crticism of David Moyes-whoever coined the expression "Football Supporters are fickle" probably had some of you lot in mind.

Firstly - I do not think DM is without fault,never makes mistakes and is second only to Howard Kendall amongst Everton managers. Sometimes I don’t agree with some of his selections/substitions etc

However - I think that some of you whilst you may well join in a chorus or two of " If you know ya History" clearly know very little about our history or perhaps to put it kinder(not that some of you deserve it) you have very little appreciation of our history.

Think back to March 2002 - the top 6 seemed a long way from our ambitions then. I think it quite fair to think that if you told most Evertonians back in March 2002 where we would be 6 years later they would have been quite pleased and satisfied.

Having been an Evertonian since 1964, I well remember our glory days in the mid - late 1960’s as well as the 1980’s. Yes I want to see Everton back up there challenging for titles and cups etc.

However what some of you are failing miserably to realise is the extent to which the game in this country has changed in the last 15 or so years. The fans in Scotland have had 50 or so years to get used to the idea of the title being between a "closed" number of clubs - i.e. Celtic and Rangers. Well in England a similar situation exists - the only difference being that there are 4 clubs involved not 2 - the 4 being of course : Arsenal,Chelsea,L’pool and Man Utd.

These 4 clubs have a massive advantage over the rest of the Premier League - i.e. MONEY.They have lots of it, and far more than the rest of the clubs.I looked at teletext last week and it was given in one report that Chelsea would have a transfer budget this summer of £100M.

There are 2 ways to break this monopoly of the "big 4 or the mega rich 4"
1) Hope that a sugar daddy turns up with the odd 70- 100million to spend on the team.
2)Sign good players( mainly young players) and develop and nurture our own talent.

It’s clear that we have gone for the latter - although it would be nice if there was more dosh, personally I wonder if some of these guys like Abramovich,Thaksin etc are going to be around in the long term - I think that this (second approach) is sound and sensible management( let’s not forget what happened to Leeds United!) .There is however one disadvantage - i.e. it requires PATIENCE - that’s something that clearly some of you are lacking. Quick fix solutions aren’t always the answer - you only need look to Elland Road to see that.

Let’s get behind our team,manager etc - instead of doing the usual football fan in the early 21st century thing i.e. as Freddie and the guys would put it "I want it all and I want it now". Success easily gained can be easily lost. We are buliding for the future and in my opionion we have made brilliant progress in the last 6 years. There’s a long way to go yet - but let’s not forget how far we have come in those 6 years.
Robbie Muldoon
27   Posted 21/04/2008 at 12:30:03

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I hate these long replies in the comments section. KEEP IT SHORT AND CONCISE!

I agree with the article anyway. If Moyes was to take charge of west ham or some one like that next season I would not expect them to become a better side at all.
Ciaran Duff
28   Posted 21/04/2008 at 12:43:35

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AMEN to all that Michael Brien.
Ciarán McGlone
29   Posted 21/04/2008 at 12:49:57

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You are so appalled by cirticism of David Moyes, that you actually agreed with it and repeated it..

go figure!
Phil Hoyle
30   Posted 21/04/2008 at 12:35:59

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I totally agree with Pete Hall’s comments.

I lived throught he glorious 80’s and then have had to witness and endure the decline of my beloved blues into a 3rd rate team and yes I do mean 3rd rate.

Not only did our league positioning and performance in other competitions become sub-standard the way we played our football was even worse. Year on year I entered pre-season with renewed optimism and hope but it always turned out to be the same old story.

For me I am seeing things change. How many of us at the start of the season would have taken the season we have had? I know I would have. Yes I am feeling down at the minute because of our mini-slump at present, and thinking what could have been if we could have found that extra goal against Fiorentina, but if I step back and look at where we were 5/6 years ago I have to be happy.

Yes our football is still not where it should be but I have seen glimses of superb football (Leon Osman’s goal Versus Larissa springs to mind) that I have not seen for sometime and it gives me reason to hope for more.

David Moyes has been key in the improvement we are all seeing. Yes I would like to see us beating the ’big 3’ but unfortunately we have to face the fact that they are better than us. They are top European team as evidenced by their performance in Europe. They no longer field weakened sides against us but in fact field their first teams which is testament to the progress we have made.

I think David Moyes is steadily building a side. Obviously it is not fast enough for some of you but to improve on 5th will take a massive undertaking and won’t be done overnight. Even with significant finance coming in don’t fool yourselved that is the answer - just look at Spurs who consistently spend big and continually under-achieve.

For me David Moyes is the man to take the club forward and we need to continue to move forward. He has steadied the ship and has established us as a top 6 side. He has raised the bar of expectation and for me we seriously need to be close to winning a trophy next year and also challenging the ’top 3’ again.
Michael Brien
31   Posted 21/04/2008 at 12:49:44

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Robbie - sorry - I thought I would try and reply in a thoughtful way, trying to understand the opposite point of view.Clearly I should have been abusive or something like that. Short and concise Robbie - well basically you talking a load of rubbish and you know it.You want a short and concise reply probably cos you can only put forward a short and concise argument yourself.
Jeff Magee
32   Posted 21/04/2008 at 12:32:07

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Could all the people who think Moyes is shite please list the managers who they feel would have done a better job in the circumstances? - I think this list will be a very be interesting read (if a little short).
Arthur Wenlock
33   Posted 21/04/2008 at 12:54:19

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Why did it all go wrong when we got knocked out by the italians? You would have thought it would have made the team even more determined to get 4th spot.

Why can't Davey motivate his players for one last push? It is so important that we get into europe... can you imagine the posts on here if we don't get in and then we find out there is hardly any money for players? There's gonna be trouble...

Arthur Wenlock
34   Posted 21/04/2008 at 13:02:32

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Jeff lad..

there shouldnt be any circumstances.. BK should just sort out the cash
Jeff Magee
35   Posted 21/04/2008 at 13:05:37

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Arthur Wenlock - I don?t mean just EFC circumstances but EPL/big3 circumstances - as has been discussed on other posts - there are plenty of clubs who don?t have BK at the helm and have lashed money at players who have not done as well as us under DM (and or inspite of BK).
Arthur Wenlock
36   Posted 21/04/2008 at 13:07:37

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The problems are.

1. Not enough cash for top players
2.Not enough cash for top players
3. Not enough cash for top players
4.Not enough cash for top players
5.Not enough cash for top players

Top players = prizes, end of.

We know davey can work on a budget, but wouldnt it be good to see if he can produce the goods with a big wad of cash?

Phil Bellis
37   Posted 21/04/2008 at 13:05:23

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Athur Wenlock?s comment re motivation brings me back to my favourite whinge... where are the leaders on the pitch?

Why are the players exempt from blame here. Are they coached to pass to the opposition? Are they told to play like pillocks? Why should players need motivating? If you?ve ever played the game, what motivated you?

Who motivated Billy Bremner, Alan Ball, Colin Bell, Paul Bracewell, Johann Cruyff, FFS?

Would any of these obey instructions to play badly? Would none of these have had a career if they played under Moyes?

Arthur Wenlock
38   Posted 21/04/2008 at 13:17:22

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Phil Bellis...maybe Moyes doesnt like leaders,egos, big players..etc if you are a top player you do tend to have a bit of a ego.
Phil Bellis
39   Posted 21/04/2008 at 13:30:33

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Nowt to do with egos

1. No team without leaders ever won anything.
2. I don’t believe Moyes sends out the team to play badly.
3. When things are going wrong on the pitch, REAL leaders take control and get it sorted

3. I believe most players DO try their best (whatever level that may be is up for discussion)
4. Is the crux of the problem with some players, as an ex-pro asked. ’how do you motivate millionaires?’
Pete Hall
40   Posted 21/04/2008 at 13:40:52

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So people who think David Moyes is doing a great job and would like to see where he can take Everton over the next few (maybe even 6) years are "fundamentalists". Do you even know the meaning of the word? It would suggest such people won?t hear of any alternative. I don?t think its necessary to be anything like so narrow minded. Its actually pragmatic to accept the way things are and make the best of it actually.

Those who insist that all is not well in the state of EFC meanwhile will not hear of there being even the nthmost iota of a possibility that they have got it wrong. A somewhat arrogant bunch methinks. The type who if they met Jesus Christ himself would be demanding evidence that he had anything special before grudgingly admitting to having any faith in him.
Adam Wareing
41   Posted 21/04/2008 at 13:50:28

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You don’t have a clue do you mate?

Moyes has done a fantastic job on limited resources and is slowly building a team that is gradually attempting more expansive football.
He is a highly coveted manager (teams like City, Spurs and Newcastle would love to have him) not least for his nouse at finding gems (Lescott, Cahill, Jagielka) for relatively little money but also he has great motivational skills and has a nack of nuturning young talent.

Who exactly do you think could do a better job? Bilic? Behave.
Ciarán McGlone
42   Posted 21/04/2008 at 15:37:04

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Jags....a gem?

I?m certainly not convinced of that suggestion.
Rob Newland
43   Posted 21/04/2008 at 15:29:51

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Anthony Newell: [[ Make a fucking stand man and demand investment so we can push on instead of settling for mediocrity. ]]

Demand investment!?!? If nobody wants to invest half a billion quid (what is needed for a real world class stadium plus players) in Everton how is Moyes "demanding" it going to make a difference? Should he call up Mark Cuban or Bill Gates and say "if you don’t invest in this football ... no no not NFL ... you know soccer ... anyway ... invest in this soccer team you’ve never heard of or I will stop being their manager."

Or is this related to the X-Files idea that Kenwright is constantly turning away billionaires who want to pour hundreds of millions of quid into this team for no apparent reason but BK won’t allow it?

Robbie Muldoon: [[ I hate these long replies in the comments section. KEEP IT SHORT AND CONCISE!]]

Yes everyone please remember this is and we should always do what Robbie wants.

Jeff Magee: [[ Could all the people who think Moyes is shite please list the managers who they feel would have done a better job in the circumstances? - I think this list will be a very be interesting read (if a little short). ]]

Yeah I’d love to see this. Obviously you can’t put any Prem manager on the list (obviously the list can’t include the likes of Wenger whom we’d have no chance of signing) because no other non-top 4 manager has done better. So c’mon ... let’s see the list of managers who would have done better than Moyes with the same resources?
Chris Fisher
44   Posted 21/04/2008 at 15:32:33

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I think Bilic is a good call!!! Not right now though ? only if Moyes fucks up ? which I hope he doesn't. He quite simply has turned us from relegation contenders every season to challenging for Europe every season and finishing in the top 4 on one of them occasions. Show me any other manager who has been able to do that??

So now he's done that, he's saying he needs anouther few years to break into the top 4 regulary and be back where we belong! And yet some fans write this sort of shite about him!!! If Man U fans had of got their way all them years ago then Alex Ferguson would've been sacked and they wouldn't've had half the success they've had with him. It's a bit more difficult now than back then cos it wasn't all just about how much money you had.

Now not only do we need the right players (and we are almost there by the way, a few additions and replacements needed...) but we also need more cash and that won't come straight away. A trophy next season would be good to keep the doubters at bay but even if not, we?ve got the best man for the job and driving him out would be the biggest mistake we could make.

Paul Lenehan
45   Posted 21/04/2008 at 16:12:49

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The reality of the situation is we are miles behind Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Utd. Some might not want to hear this but from a footballing and commercial perspective we are no where near the sky 4. So people can call for Moyes to go all they want, until we get serious investment and develop a ground which is commercially successful we won’t be competing at the level we all think Everton Football Club should be at.
Tony Ado
46   Posted 21/04/2008 at 20:06:00

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Moyes in. Moyes out. Moyes is crap. Moyes is the best we can hope for. Moyes is taking us forward. Moyes is destroying the club.

A thoughtful piece in the paper a few weeks ago (I think I read through a link off this site) commented that there is an argument for him being seen as the best ?pound for pound? manager in the Premier League, given the resources he has had at his disposal and the (relative) success he has achieved on the pitch.

Every organisation, and football clubs are no different, needs a strategy upon which they operate and Everton?s has obviously been to invest in young players and rely on Moyes?s and his coaching staffs knack of buying cheap talent and bringing them on. In this respect, Everton as a football team are greater then the sum of their parts, which is a testament to Moyes.

Football fans are emotional by nature and several of the posts really are coming off another planet - we all want our team to do well but this just isn?t enough. In 2008 football is all about money, TV and celebrity and I love the fact that Everton are bucking the trend with a team of hard-working pro?s who go about their business and pending a result against Villa will finish 5th (or 1st in the 2nd tier of the division).

They said that the team of ?85 had ?no stars? and I think it?s this tradition which Moyes is trying to replicate. We need to get behind the team and manager, buy a few quality players in the summer and kick on again next season.

Mike Dayton
47   Posted 21/04/2008 at 21:09:26

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I just can?t believe what I read. Results are what counts. Does anyone in their right mind think with such a threadbare squad we can do better than fifth?
Maybe, we don?t play attractive football. Perhaps we are defensive minded but 61 points says it all to me. I?m glad it isn?t 41 points and us sweating to say afloat and Beattie eating us for lunch next year. This is the best we?ve seen in umpteen years.
Degzy Jones
48   Posted 21/04/2008 at 21:06:17

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Who has researched Bilic?s strengths and weaknesses? Is he scientific, does he use a lot of data in his analysis? What kind of system does he play? Does he take the lads out for a treat like Howard did (so did big sam by the way)? What is his motivational style? Whats his scouting network like?

Truth is, I don't reckon anyone on this site has looked hard enough at a potential manager in the UK never mind eastern europe.

If you think anyone could have done better than Moyes has you are a MUG! Lots of managers have had a bit of success, Aldridge (TRFC), Pardew (Hammers, reading), Keegan (Fulham), Houllier (Lyon) list could go on. It don't mean they could do it again AND it don't mean they could do it at Everton.

He has made HUGE strides, I watched John Ebrell and Paul Holmes enough to know how good it has gotten. Who is to say it won't keep improving. Yes more money is the instant fix, but we ain't got it, it ain't coming soon and might never come, so what do we do? Fire Moyes, get someone good in like...........? Erm erm,,,,, erm fuck it I haven't got a clue who could fill his shoes, who could buy people like lescott, the Yak, Arteta & Cahill. If you do then:
1) you are lying

or 2) You can predict the future and you should play the euro millions on a rollover week and come in with a bid for the club!!!
Dave Taylor
49   Posted 21/04/2008 at 21:51:39

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Who is this kid?!?
Jason Berry
50   Posted 21/04/2008 at 21:58:00

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Ok so if we got rid of moyes who would we get in to replace him????
Who can do a better job then he is doing???
Remember when he took over we were a relegation side and just staying up was a "good" season, now we expect nothing short of qualifying for Europe!
I think it's a job well done by Moyes who has worked without having the financial backing all of the other teams in the top 10.
If it takes another 6 years to break into the top 4 then so be it, Moyes has built the foundations steering us to a top 6 team and bringing in young talented players whose value will only grow.
So I say back off have faith and in 6 years time we?ll be playing the likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid and Milan every season.
Anthony Newell
51   Posted 21/04/2008 at 22:00:01

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Rob N, I should have re-phrased that as your right, on the face of it, it reads a bit daft - what I meant was that Moyes should be asking for us his board to back him by way of transfer funding to bring in the quality players required. That means the board need to make an additional ?investment? in the playing staff - that is what I meant. However, I don?t think the current board are capable. From your last sentence your obviously a make do and mend merchant who is happy to see out years and years of more drivel. I think that after six years it?s time for us to say "that was Moyes's defining season ? not the next fucking one". Watch us fail to win the next two games to further confirm my point.
David Taylor
52   Posted 21/04/2008 at 22:28:47

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Anthony, do you WANT us to lose the next 2 games?... just so you can try and ’make a point’ on another ridiculously overly-negative thread. Granted, it gets you a response so mission accomplished.

I would bet my season ticket there a few people out there who actually are, ever so slightly, pleased when we lose just because they in some twisted way think this ’backs up’ their endless negativity...
Ajay Dalmeida
53   Posted 22/04/2008 at 10:36:33

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Get Mourhino on board and then maybe I?ll consider sacking Moyes!!
Jay Campbell
54   Posted 22/04/2008 at 11:02:06

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FFS it’s easy get Kenwright out and the rest will fall into place. Anyone with half a brain can work out the root of Everton’s problems it’s that idiot.
Dave Dawson
55   Posted 22/04/2008 at 11:58:10

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Good point, I knew something about Moyes recent comments had ben getting to me, and its the fact that he’s making excuses and talking about another six years rather than focusing on and preparing for the now most important game of our season against Villa.
Michael Brien
56   Posted 22/04/2008 at 12:31:25

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I recall when the general view was it wasa good thing that Johnson had bought the club rather than Kenwright, because Johnson was the guy with all the dosh far more of it than Kenwright.We all know how that turned out don’t we ??!

If we have a bad run out come the moaners and it’s time for them to slag off the team/individual players/manager/kenwright/board etc. Try and wake up some of you to the reality that at the moment the Premier League title is a closed shop of Arsenal,Chelsea,Man Utd & L’pool.

We are making progress, perhaps not as fast as some would like - but we are in better shape now in 2008 than back in March 2002 when Moyes took over as manager. And whilst I am sure the thought of a sugar daddy arriving on the scene with wads of cash to spend on new players is appealing - it’s not always the answer. Do you think the likes of Abramovich,Thaksin, the Americans at Old Trafford and at Anfield are the sort of people who have their heart 100% in the club ?

Dave - when Moyes is talking about 5 or 6 years I don’t think he is making excuses - I think that he is merely being realistic.I would rather the manager was realistic than have someone in charge who makes wild promises.Over the last 6 years Moyes has been realistic and dare I say honest. I think that he is totally commited to Everton and acheiving success for Everton.

Finally to the Moyes out brigade - clubs that change their manager on a regular basis are usually ones that are not sucessfull. And to those of you who suggested Alardyce -What that fine pioneer of beautiful attacking football!! Behave !! And Bilic - what a great sucess he was as an Everton player !! Get a grip some of you.
Andy Crooks
57   Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:09:20

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Who is better than Davy Moyes in the premier. Ferguson, Wenger,ok. Martin O’neill, maybe. That’s about it. Considering what he’s had to spend and compared to the previous 10 years we’re lucky to have him.
Rob Newland
58   Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:19:08

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Anthony Newell: [[ That means the board need to make an additional ?investment? in the playing staff - that is what I meant. However, I don?t think the current board are capable. From your last sentence your obviously a make do and mend merchant who is happy to see out years and years of more drivel.]]

If the board aren’t capable then how is a new manager going to make any difference?

Honestly, all BS aside, do you think there is a manager out there (whom we could realistically sign) who would have done better than Moyes with the same resources? That would mean finishing third one year after only spending what we’ve spent. It’d be a bloody miracle to be frank.
Paul McCann
59   Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:05:55

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I don’t know what you do for a living mate, but supposing your doing the best job you can possibly do with what’s at your disposal, would you think that you should get the sack? I’d have thought not.

By any reasoned reading, Moyes’ record at the club is an excellent one. As for the style of play, I agree that its been poor for most of the time [with signs of progress this season], but we haven’t played decent stuff for a prolonged period since Harvey was in charge. 20 years of utter shite [save bits and pieces under Big Joe]. Nil Statis Nisi Optimum? we haven’t had anywhere near ’the best’ for a full generation, but you suddenly expect it now, even though there has been relitively little investment in the team. Why?

I’m not averse to changing manager if it is in the best interests of the club, but it simply isn’t. I bet there’s a whole queue of top managers and coaches lining up to spend 15 million quid a season.

You’re like the Arse fans shouting that Wenger should be sacked. Utter nonsense. Fact is that Moyes can’t do any more than he is doing, apart from improve the style of play [which I believe has started], until some major investment arrives. Don’t hold your breath.

Answer me one thing: What do you think, realistically, is the highest place we can finish in the league, given what’s happened over the last twenty years, and the amount of recent investment in the team? If your answer is fifth, challenging fourth, as mine would be, then think before you write your next article.
Nikolay Nikolov
60   Posted 22/04/2008 at 14:23:35

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Greetings from Bulgaria!

I can?t say that say that I am a huge fan of David Moyes, but still I feel that this comment is a bit harsh. Most of the things said above are true but not to such an extent. The truth is that we do not have a deep enough squad to mount a serious Champions? League place challange. Our sudden loss of form is due to the sheer fact that Tim Cahill is again out injured! And Tim Cahill is the most important type of player in Moyes?s tactical scheme. If Tim Cahill was in full shape we would have still had a chance to get the 4th place finish.

What I cannot understand is why we have 4 equally good Strikers - Yak, AJ, Vaughan and Victor - and at the same time we do not have a replacement for the only aggressive attacking midfielder (and goal scoring for that matter) - Cahill.

And, since Tim has been known for his injury proneness, I would just raise the following question: If Moyes?s gameplan requires such a type of player for that position then why we do not have anyone else capable of filling Tim?s spot? We have tried AJ, or Leon etc. but the results have not been good. When Tim is injured, Everton struggle. And I think that this is a problem which, if resolved, can improve our chances of reaching the top 4 not in five or six years but next year.

I really dislike the lack of ambition shown in Moyes?s recent comments. If we are 5th this season then next season we should have higher goals. It may not work but in order to be big you should think of yourself as such!

Brian Baker
61   Posted 22/04/2008 at 08:30:34

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Please stop calling our proposed new stadium the 'KIRKBYDOME'. PLEASE NOTE: It won't be dome shaped!!

If you bothered to study the plans you will know it will be a boxy square shape, like a traditional football stadium, without the luxury of a curved roof, thus making it a DOME!! A dome is way outside of our budget!

Now the 'KIRKBY ARENA' is more inline with its design. But I'd prefer something like 'The Dixie Dean Arena' or 'New Goodison Park'.

I just thought I'd get that off my chest.

Chris Perry
62   Posted 22/04/2008 at 07:59:46

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Quite honestly, I could not give a fuck if Moyes goes. He has taken the club as far as he can, he should also take Hibbert, Osman, and Neville with him.

I for one will not be renewing my season ticket next season I have seen enough drab football this season. Something drastic needs to happen between now and the start of the new season to give Everton a chance of ending up in the top half.

Matthew Lim
63   Posted 22/04/2008 at 15:40:15

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Given the amount of $ and limited number of players, what he has managed to do I think no one else can. More importantly, no one wants to but Moyes and Bill. I see greatness in a man who succeeds in bringing out the best of players. Rome was not built in a day, but we are on the right track with the right foundations. Patience and perseverence will reap bountiful rewards.....Moyes for another 6 years....or tonnes of cash..... I will pick Moyes....he is something that $$$ cannot buy these days. Well done Moyes! Keep it going! you ARE the MAN!
Paul McCann
64   Posted 22/04/2008 at 16:09:22

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Chris Perry,

?Something drastic needs to happen between now and the start of the new season to give Everton a chance of ending up in the top half.?

Just wondering, after finishing sixth in 2006-07, and hopefully fifth in 2007-08, how you can justify a comment like that? Can you?

I don?t know how long you?ve had your season ticket Chris, but you must have had worse seasons than this if you?ve had it for longer than two, so I?m suprised you?ve been pushed over the edge at this point.
Tony Williams
65   Posted 22/04/2008 at 17:18:55

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Good point Paul.

Chris have you only just bought a season ticket last year then? because if you haven’t and didn’t falter in the mid 90’s to the early 00’s then I have no way of speaking to you, as it seems you feel that the good old days of relegation battles and non scoring better to watch than now and therefore are obbviously a nutter,

Joe Ludden
66   Posted 22/04/2008 at 18:32:07

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Tim Michael: didn't Kendall follow the Coventry low ebb with becoming our most successful manager in our history - in a shorter time than Moyes has already had.... and he wants another 6 years on top...

I?m no Moyes fan, but I don?t find myself detesting him either, and I hate myself for it. I realise we could be doing a lot worse, but I am staggered at how Evertonian minds have turned. No longer do we seek trophies, we just don?t wanna get relegated. Sorry fellas, that aint what I was born with. I'm one of those redundant fans who believes in our motto.

Moyes has clearly taken us as far as he can. He struggles. Fulham, Birmingham just to name recent ones, but don't forget our worst league finish since the 18?somets under him too, where we finished with less than 40 points, the 7-0 to the Arse, 5-1 in Romania - I can name more negatives than any pro-Moyesies can name positives. Anyone wanna discuss Krøldrup? He is not a magician. He?s just unfortunately the best we could and can possibly get given Kenwright's tenure at the helm.

We will never win anything under Kenwright. I?d love to be proved wrong. We won't finish 5th this season either, so hopefully then, the season re Moyes can be judged fairly. Nil return for, what, how much do we pay week on week? Maybe its the modern game, maybe it?s life now, but maybe we should question it and not settle for the crumbs from the Sky 4 table.
Joe Ludden
67   Posted 22/04/2008 at 19:27:17

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This is what I want, and something I dont think Moyes can deliver. Watch it, try not to shed a tear, then do a reply post that you are happy to just not get relegated. Its Pompey v Cardiff in this years cup final FGS!
Terry Maddock
68   Posted 22/04/2008 at 21:46:36

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THE 5-YEAR PLAN........

That was what DM presented to BK at his job interview...that was the lengh of time that DM believed it would take to remove the aging cash cows in the squad and replace them with young, hungry players... and in doing so change the team from perennial relegation fodder into (the original plan) a consistent top 10 side..

Clearly he has exceeded the remit that he gave in this plan and has now turned perennial relegation strugglers into expected European contenders..


This is stage two... having moved Everton forward... and made them an attractive proposition to better players DM is now targetting a breakthru into the top 4... which basically means 1 place up..

He manages our expectations by simply giving us the cold hard facts: bar a sugar daddy giving him £100 mill to spend in one season, we will still be behind the "BIG 4" in spending power... so it will take us perhaps 6 years to achieve the same level that they have managed in 1.

Needless to say, cash is not the be all and end all.. NUFC, Pompey, Spurs, Leeds, Man City can all bear witness to that..

How anybody can call our highest ever premiership points total anything but PROGRESS... I dont know... our best European run in 22 years?...another gem signed in Pienaar...

I don't think Moyes is perfect... and if I'm honest it would be great to watch us play like Arsenal or Man Utd every week...

But with our current level of investment he has gone way above and beyond what was expected of him, to the point that some seem to think we should some how magically be able to find another 10 or 15 points plus the odd trophy just because we are Everton... Garbage!

I think the one comment that sums up the no-brainers comes from Arthur Wenlock
when he says.."BK should just sort out the cash " ...brilliant.. because in the minds of the Arthur Wenlock's of this world... it really is that simple to sort out all our problems.

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