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Not Kirkby, Please

By Cathy Johansen :  27/04/2008 :  Comments (60) :
I hate apathy. I have been involved in many political campaigns in my life and nothing depresses me more that the expressions 'I can't be arsed', ' bothered', 'same buggers always win', 'money talks', blah, blah...

I've been involved in subversive campaigns against every government administration in the British Isles, including Eire, since the mid 80s. I know the authorities have got my file: I've supported gay rights, women's rights, pro-choice rights, anti-nazi behaviour, anti-war (esp. Iraq) and fought for protection of green space in public parks. In all these fights I have encounted opposition. Fine, great, bring it on. I have rarely encountered apathy.

However, the apathy that now resonates around Goodison Park is deafening in the extreme. It seems that Evertonians, on the whole, don't care that they are being shafted by a bunch of self-centred, financially motivated shysters who look as though they are trying to make a quick buck. 'Oh Bill, he's one of us, an Evertonian. So is Leahy, why would they want to damage the club? They're both such great Evertonians.'


They get this stadium in Kirkby and then sell the club, they'll probably have a nice £50/60m to share between themselves.

That's okay though, Bill's seen us through the dark period where we were the poisoned chalice: any manager who wanted the job was unworthy and we got HK back, twice. No-one else of note wanted the fucking job. Not by being there, before you all start going ape, but by being there in the background. If only we could get rid of Peter we could have Bill...

And now, the end is near. Well it is. For either Goodison Park or Kirkby. If we stay at Goodison, we have to redevelop but that, according to the reports I've read, can be done at far less than it would cost us to go to Kirkby. Lower Bullens as corporate and an extra tier on the Park End for starters. Sounds good to me. No loss of revenue, increase in corporate. Isn't that what the board wants? We could build on existing footprint. To my mind, as an eco-warrior of days gone by, ideal.

But Kirkby, it just dosen't tick any boxes. The transport plan is shot through: park-and-walk now that park-and-ride is gone, due to Merseytravel saying that they haven't got the buses, has not changed any distances. A 45-minute walk from parking your car to the stadium. Roughly the equivalent of walking to Goodison from Paradise Street.

Still banging on about 1,000 people cycling. Can't wait to see the spectacle of a 1,000 bow-legged scousers on their BMXs, scarves flailing and hats flying off, scooting down the East Lancs. Kirkby taxis can't pick up in Liverpool, and vice versa.

Do you really want to go to a retail park to watch Everton? Do you?

Mid-range, basic fit-out stadium on a retail park or redevelop the only club ground in this country that has staged a World Cup semi-final?

Mid-range, basic fit-out stadium on a retail park or redevelop a ground that has witnessed not only the genius of Dean, Hickson, Young, Ball but also Pele and Eusebio?

Mid-range, basic fit-out stadium on a retail park or redevelop the first purpose-built football stadium in the world? It's a sense of our history that kept us going during the dark days of the 90s, why is that history not being remembered now?

Why do some people think Kirkby is the answer?

Please God, and I'm not a religious person, don't let us move to Kirkby.

Reader Comments

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Rich Jones
1   Posted 27/04/2008 at 09:07:42

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Cathy, the thing about this Kirkby deal that annoys me most is our opposition to it so feeble. I was at the protest after the United game, it was pathetic. I couldn't get my head around the fact that although there are a sizeable amount of people who don't want Kirkby, they're just not as passionate about it as me. I came to the conclusion that day that we won't stop it ? only the government calling it in or a change of heart from Billy or his side kick will change anything.

The only way the later will happen is them being made uncomfortable enough by large amount of people. Even if you try to start some sort of chant against in the ground, people look at you like you're an idiot. So I'm affraid that's how I see it and all these people will be watching the blues in Kirkby in 2010. I won't be one of them though.

Ian Macdonald
2   Posted 27/04/2008 at 09:43:32

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On this subject this e.mail was sent to me the other day. It's hard to argue with. Well said, Cathy

To: Ian Macdonald
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: KEIOC Launch Independent Survey

Just completed it mate. Starting to grow tired of this stadium move, from the Official side that is!! We?ve been sold a duffer with this one mate!! The more this story evolves it just stinks!! Something has gotta be done mate.

I was sat at home last night watching that Al Gore film called An Inconvenient Truth, really got me thinking about what we are doing with our planet. Don?t worry though I?m not gonna go all ?Green? on you. What it did get me thinking though was how we procrastinate in anything in life, we are no longer activist..... we can?t be arsed basically, well there?s always someone else who can do it eh? I?m guilty of it mate, but I?m slowly starting to think that I need to get off my arse and start to do something to make a change.

We are now officially the Procrastination Generation and people like Politicians and anyone in power (and I undoubtedly include Bill and his cronies in that) take the piss out of the public because they know that they?ll get away with it. Sure, they?ll get a bit of opposition at the outset but that will usually quickly subside.

I?m sick and tired of this pathetic attitude throughout the UK and amongst Evertonian?s in general. Something has got to change!! Are we really going to be allowed to sleepwalk into this move. Surely more and more ?Yes? voters amongst the Everton family are starting to have increased doubts as to this move?!?! Surely?!?!

The ?Deal of the Century? is quickly starting to turn into something that a bunch of Nigerian fraudsters would be proud of!!!

Something has got to be done!

Barry Bragg
3   Posted 27/04/2008 at 09:28:53

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If as you say it is possible to redevelop Goodison cheaper than Kirkby and with the same results and it was Bill and Kieth’s intention to make a quick buck by selling the club once we have a new ground surely they would be taking the cheaper option so that they could make even more money and cut Tesco out of the deal???????
Jay Campbell
4   Posted 27/04/2008 at 10:02:21

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People cycling to the match!!!!

Wyness is a total fuckn buffoon.
Ajamu Mutumwa
5   Posted 27/04/2008 at 09:55:13

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OK you anti-Kirkby masses, answer me a few questions.

(1) 10,000 people didn?t even vote. Not 1,000, but 10,000. Why did they not vote if this move spells the end of Everton as we know it.

(2) The KEIOC so called mass protest turned out to be a tardy looking bird and some blokes - why was this "mass protest" such an unmitigating flop?

(3) You make an interesting allegation about people pocketing money. To save threats of this site being sued by Wyness etc, could you provide some proof.

(4) Most grounds are developed with a development partner, or other assets to raise additional money, such as our neighbours building hotels. Only Utd can expand without such a partner. In Kirkby its Tesco?s in Walton its who? The essential question is right now, is it deliverable?

(5) Rebuiliding Goodison is not as easy as you make it sound. You can only wack on a new tier on top of the Park End. The others need to be re-built ? even if it was going to happen, have you factored in the loss revenue during this period?

(6) As a Yes supporter I?ve been subjected to crap article after crap article on Kirkby. I?ve supported Everton since 1969. Am I less of a supporter for being pro-Kirkby?

Finally, can I once again plea for articles which raise the debate rather than repeating the same nonsense Goebels like ad nauseum. It still sounds like a socialist workers rally rather than a sane debate, and while it will appease those who share your views, it does nothing to convince me to change my views ? it only bores me.

Arthur Jones
6   Posted 27/04/2008 at 10:10:00

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This is a copy of what I posted on the Everton OS

Our history and heritage were built at Goodison Park it?s where Dixie scored his 60 league goals in 1927 where Bally called home , Everything that was good about Everton FC has happened , Goodison Park is synonymous ith EFC , from " Nil Satis Nisi Optimum " to "The People?s Club " , .. All this is being tossed aside for a second rate stadium in Kirkby , Not even for a magnificent replacement like the Kings Dock would have been . Ever wonder why Trevor Birch walked out ? The truth will emerge one day . Our Club deserve the kudos that a first rate stadium would bring , it was good enough to hold a world cup semi final in 1966 , What happened ?? years of fiscal mismanagement , of total naivety by those that ran the club to stand still , when others , man utd and RS moved forward , .. We should demand a top clas stadium in the city boundaries , our history deserves this , when we move or if we rebuild it should be the best , not a " cowshed " in a car park in the outskirts of the city of our birth . Once we go , theres NO TURNING BACK , we?re stuck there , there?s no use then screaming blue murder at kenwright and wyness .., they won?t be there to answer for there errors , but we will , all of us who would watch the blues if they groundshared with Marine fc in crosby !!

One peron passed a positive comment, then it was just ignored. Talk about apathy!!! I wouldn?t have minded even some negative response just for a reaction and alternative point of view!!
Lammy Stent
7   Posted 27/04/2008 at 10:13:29

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I think the post by Ajamu goes to show what we're up against. Some people just don't get. it.
John Andrews
8   Posted 27/04/2008 at 10:30:49

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Ajamu, It is very simple really. The so called "Deal of the Century" has now turned out to be not so.
1. There were stories, true or not, that some folks, entitled to vote, did not even receive their voting papers.
2. Pure and simple apathy. People assume that somebody else will save us from the threat of Kirkby.
3. It would seem good business sense to get the stadium built and then tout the club around to the highest bidder.
4. I was led to believe that Sainsburys were interested in building in Walton Hall Park ?
5. Rebuilding Goodison is only as hard as you care to make it. Once again there have been feasibility studies regarding this but, sadly, you seem to forget the "Exclusivity" deal brokered by Messrs Kenwright and Wyness.
6. I have supported Everton since 1950. You are no less of a supporter for being pro Kirkby but is it still the "Deal of the Century ?"
I too would like to raise the debate but there is nobody to debate with as the Board seem to go to ground every time this issue is raised. And then, of course, there is the "Exclusivity" clause which, according to the Board, preclude them from any discussion.
Sorry to have gone on ad nauseum and sorry to have bored you.
Tony Williams
9   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:05:45

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Cathy, you ask if you want to go to a retail park to watch Everton?, my response to that would be that I wouldn?t be able to see the retail park from seat, so it would not bother me either way.

We are never going to find a location like Goodison.

If the Loop ever came to fruition I bet a lot of people would say, would you want to go and watch Everton next to a dangerous and busy dual carriageway?
Robbie Carew
10   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:04:50

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It?s only a stadium, just a black of concrete.
The San Siro is not in Milan.
Old Trafford is not really in the City on Manchester.
So who cares, you can speak of what Goodison has seen, but what will Kirkby see..
Ajamu Mutumwa
11   Posted 27/04/2008 at 10:59:04

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John Andrews,

I?ll come back to you on one question so as not to get into a terminal dialogue.

10,000 didn?t vote. Yes, one or two people, even hundreds did not get a voting paper, but 10,000 DIDN?T VOTE IN AN ISSUE WHICH WOULD DECIDE THE FUTURE OF THE CLUB FOR A 100 YEARS, and the Kirkby faction have no real answer. The answer is simple. People don?t share your view, or at least, it is not a concern to them do long as Everton continue to exist. It could also be that this is the only real deliverable project on the ground.

Actually, I?ll pose another question: Why is it that the anti-Kirkby lobby has stayed stony silent on Everton?s claim that relocating to the Loop will in effect leave Everton with a smaller stadium, but within the city boundaries than Goodison Park? Week after week there were arguments for the Loop - now silence, why?

Finally, building a ground nowadays needs enabling development. If we did not get that, in order to develop Goodison Park would people be happy for the manager to be given nothing in terms of a transfer kitty?

I leave it to the ToffeeWeb anti Kirkby faction to raise the level of debate. And no John, you don?t bore me, the whole school childishness of the debate bores me. It's like listening to Marxiism 101.
Gavin Ramejkis
12   Posted 27/04/2008 at 10:53:35

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Ajamu not trying to repeat what John Andrews said but from my perspective to respond to you:

1. Even national elections in the UK have a poor turn out as people have become lazy and accustomed to the "it won’t make any difference what they do" line hence often only sixty/seventy percent turn outs which nationally is a massive section of non votes returned a national apathy.

2. The "mass protest" again had a poor turn out, I can’t answer why exactly beyond apathy and many assuming their voice would be ignored by the club, remember this is organised by a group made of fans not an organised mobilisation, the movement could well seek assistance from bodies with more experience and involve the local and national media to publicise a protest. Just as Sky with the clever use of microphones makes a few hundred fans "out sing" the thousands of Evertonians for key games, it’s a matter of organisation and knowing how to make it look and sound more impressive than it actually is.

3. The pocketing monies allegations are just that allegations, an interesting choice though given even a rudimentary bit of research into Keith Wyness’ previous business dealings such as his aborted attempt to relocate Aberdeen with the lies attached to that, his business dealings during the Sydney Olympics and his ongoing employment at Everton FC where he has been able to operate his own business on the club’s time and get paid over £400k in performance related pay whilst he was actually off ill.

4. The club have no assets left beyond the player’s contracts and a mortgaged Goodison Park, they do have the profits from the Bellfield sale but without the desire to use them to redevelop Goodison it is unlikely to happen, many documents have been published which show it could be done and how. The neighbouring hotels concept in Kirkby would more than likely in line with the "Medium Stadium" be more akin to a Travel Lodge rather than a Radisson and again as not owned by the club why should it be of any concern to Everton as not a penny would go back to them. Sainsbury were the partner for Walton as the documents strangely hidden during the whole debate and vote show.

5. The rebuild of Goodison Park can be done and the documents show how, the same people have done it very successfully at St James Park, that whole topic can be read ad infinitum on this site and others, it again depends on who you believe a guy who has done it or Keith Wyness and a team employed by Keith Wyness to push through the Kirkby move knowing he did the same at Aberdeen and guess where Aberdeen are still playing?

6. Whether you are a new born blue or an octagenarian blue it makes you no less of a blue, the debates on this site and many others show that far too many Evertonians are still passionate about what they see as a disasterous and wrong move by the club. Feel free to post your contradictions to any points in the debate; that’s what makes a great debate but don’t deny the debate simply as you don’t agree with it.
David Kiely
13   Posted 27/04/2008 at 10:42:51

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Ajamu - you complain of tired old arguments being presented by the blues opposed to Kirkby. The valididity of that old argument has been strengthened by the facts emerging about the stadium: the backtracking on its design and true cost, the draconian transportation plan designed to punish matchgoers... not to mention the likely difficulties in planning faced by the so-called partners.

I fear it?s you who is peddling the same old tired empty phrases about non-attendance of called for demonstrations (leave that to Madden FFS), and the unviability of redevolping Goodison. Repetition is your stock in trade, not KEIOC's.
Mark Gray
14   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:42:33

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Great article Cathy.

Apathy is definitely the main reason Bill Kenwright gets away with so much.

I see people like Ajamu as the mugs of this world, prepared to peddle someone else?s agenda whilst completely embarrassing themselves. It is so undignified.

Unfortunately there are many like him, who just blindly swallow all the shite laid before them. It makes me wonder if these individuals can distinguish whether they support the club or 3 or 4 multi millionaires who will make even more money out of our apathy and stupidity.

At least I see it correctly, my conscience will be clear and I will have no regrets. I would hate to be someone like Ajamu in 4 years time when they eventually realise that they?ve been had.

Fools the lot of them.
Lammy Stent
15   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:47:29

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For fear of repeating myself like I said people like Ajamu just don't get it. That's the sad part in all this.
Albert Dock
16   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:47:25

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Cathy, why not harness some of that apathy and organise a day of inaction?

First home game of next season and nobody to attend.

No need to march up and down, or chain yourself to a police horse, just stay at home or go watch Tranmere or something.

I imagine that a deserted Goodison might concentrate one or two minds.

Colin Wordsworth
17   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:46:49

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Why is Ajamu being pilloried for telling the truth?

It is only the location that is the problem!

We cannot afford to redevelop Goodison Park fullstop.

And if we don?t move and a stand is redeveloped or even are we going to feel when the carbuncle on the park is built and towers over Ye Olde Everton?...

At least by having a brand new stadium we can move the club on and even rebrand the club hopefully encouraging more investment.

We have to move on, at the end of the day we only generate as much money from Goodison as Blackburn for goodness sake!

We have been punching above our weight financially for seasons, we need to punch our weight, we need to move.

And ps I love Goodison as much as the next man, I have been a supporter since 1969, but there is always a time to move on, this is a great opportunity we might regret it if we don?t manage to take it!
Ciaran Duff
18   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:50:50

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I think you are letting your admirable fighting spirit cloud your judgment. Unlike most of the other causes that you list, we are not fighting an external entity with a different agenda. In this case you are fighting your own club and you seem to be assuming that they have a hidden agenda. I just don?t buy that. If it was easier to redevelop Goodison, why the fuck wouldn?t they do that?

If you think that BK & co just want to make a PROFIT on Kirkby and then sell up (which I don?t believe) then basically you are saying that the move would make Everton more attractive financially and therefore has to be a good thing?

Arthur Jones
19   Posted 27/04/2008 at 11:54:20

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As I?ve posted here and on the OS, once we?ve moved, there?s NO GOING BACK. That's why I can?t understand the apathy of the ?can?t be bothered? faction or the ?my opinion doesn?t count? merchants... thats' why people like civil rights abusers get away with it! It?s why we should be grateful to Cathy and her compatriots who don?t let us forget, and why as Everton fans we should at least listen and read alternative points that KEIOC are bringing to our attention. You may not agree with what they say but you owe it to yourselves to listen to the other side of the argument and not dismiss it out of hand because Wyness, Leahy and Kenwright tell you that the Kirkby deal is the ? Deal of the Century'.
Michael Ward
20   Posted 27/04/2008 at 12:19:11

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Cathy, just a couple of points on your article.

45 minutes walk from Paradise Street to Goodison, really? You think so? Sorry, I don't agree.

Also I used to get picked up by Kirkby cabs from my home in Walton not too far from Goodison and dropped off at the Makro in Kirkby not too far away from the proposed stadium site.

If we are going to debate this can we please debate based on facts, not opinions. It is clear that there is a split of opinions between all Evertonians on this issue.

One thing I have noticed is many Evertonians saying they will not go to the match anymore or renew season tickets. So I take it this means that you will never watch a football game at a ground again? Sorry I just dont see that happening. The alternative would be to support another team, who? Liverpool?? What happens when your kids want to go to the game, you tell them they are not allowed? I think some people are going a bit out of hand.

Personally, I don't know what to believe I keep reading mixed messages around the issue, which in itself can?t be a good thing. I do honestly believe that BK etc do have Everton's best interests at heart tho, even in a business context do you think Bill would get an advantage selling a club that was in deep trouble and couldn't come close to filling every week?

I love Everton and it would take a lot more than moving stadium for me to stop going the game and following my team, if they played in the local park I would still be there supporting the boys. Today we have got a game that could be the difference between our season being a real success or a what could/should have been. So let's get behind our team and try and forget about kirkby for today! COYB
Mark Gray
21   Posted 27/04/2008 at 12:21:54

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Can you not see the boards incentive?

The incentive is £52m worth of retail enabling development.

It doesn’t mean the club is being run any better or has a brighter future as a result of the move to Kirkby. It just means that the Directors of Everton Football Club shareholding will benefit from £52m worth of freebie sweeteners from Tesco/Knowsley Council. I doubt Kenwright is bothered about the long term implications of his actions, he is 62 and he probably won?t be around in 20 or so years. Bill Kenwright is clearly focused on sealing the deal and lining his pockets at the expense of Evertonians like you and me.

The worry for me as an Evertonian is that if we moved to Kirkby we will not achieve the desired attendances and will therefore not generate the increased revenue required to service our existing debt, the cost of the new stadium and provide David Moyes with the funds he will need to replenish the squad.

Kirkby is a great deal for Bill Kenwright and the board but a bad deal for the long term financial prosperity of Everton Football Club.
Ajamu Mutumwa
22   Posted 27/04/2008 at 12:10:47

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Mark Gray.

Even if I disagreed with you violently, I would NEVER call you a mug. I would hope that if you are trying to win friends and influence people, that sort of language is unacceptable, and I don?t accept it for one minute - not from a fellow fan.

We may disagree over Kirkby, we may disagree over whether Hibbert should be shown the door in the summer, but at the end of the day, we are still Everton.

I?ve resisted the urge to post anything on this topic, but felt compelled to write only because the article from Cathy simply repeated the other 100 or so articles published by Toffeeweb.

The only article that I have ever stood up and listened to, and doffed my cap to was Tom Huges. His contribution lifted the debate, Cathy?s leaves me cold.

As for Arthur Jones comments about reading the other side, that is one of my points. If the "other side" wasn?t so Marxist 101, added something new to the debate, and wasn?t so full of hatred I?d listen to it, but at present it simply sounds like the socialist worker party nonsense that turned me anti marxist because they simply were not able to answer some of the basic contradiction of their own tenants.

When I get a proper answer to the question, if this is so much a disaster waiting to happen why did not 10,000 people not take the opportunity to throw it out?

I repeat this question Mark only becuase people seem unable, or more likely, unwilling to answer it.

To me the anti Kirkby faction (and I think that I use the term properly), in terms of strategy have a choice. Keep being the minority you are and keep speaking to your own audience who will love every word, or look at ways of broadening your appeal and increasing your support.

Articles such as Cathy?s speak to the converted, nobody else

Mark Gray
23   Posted 27/04/2008 at 12:46:53

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You can be as insulted as you like, frankly I?ve lost all respect for people like you.

I see great harm being done to the club I love, I see it happening now and it is individuals like you that are enabling this to happen.

I was one of those 10,000 or so who voted against the move to Kirkby. I want to see the club's future secured so that my children will still be able to follow a ?big club? and not some withered club like Preston NE. This is the future for Everton in Kirkby, an eroded fanbase and a long forgotten illustrious history.

We have won 9 championships and yet Sky already treat us like we?re small time. How will we be perceived when we are the only club in the Borough of Knowsley whilst Liverpool march on unopposed, one city one club etc etc.

I make no apologies for my disdain for the misdirected blind faith, ignorance and stupidity shown by so many of my fellow blues. You?re part of the problem.

Joey Dela
24   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:05:07

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The independent ballot was a YES, but I have reservations of not where the ground is, but the retail park surroundings etc. I also have reservations of the funding & the actual cost to the club in the end of the move. Over the park they are in a worse position cost wise but they are staying in a more premier venue than a mere shopping retail park & a far more superior stadia! I feel sad to leave our home & we were the first club in the area !!!!! The shared stadia debate was written off far too quickly IMO & before any one bemoans this point it has been done abroad by bigger clubs E.G. The Milan duo, & in a year of the european Capital of culture the grants for the stadia would have been there. I feel in many years to come both sets of fans if one team runs into financial ruin over the ground issue may realise why did we not at least have a ballot over the proposals & finance for this idea that was blown out of the sky without much thought? The rivals theme of both our clubs will always continue, but both ground moves may lead to the destruction of the histories & furtures of both clubs!
Robbie Skinley
25   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:08:49

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Must say I feel people like Mark Gray and some of the other anti-kirkby lobby don?t contribute in any meaningful way to this debate. If someone like Ajamu try to rationally explain their views they generally get insulted and get the same unsubstantiated views thrown at them as if they were established facts.

I?m a Yes voter, though I must admit some of the recent financial revelations do worry me, and as much as I love Goodison and wish it was possible to increase the capacity and to fund this, I just don?t believe it can currently be done.

And as for Kenwright wanting to line his pockets, I think you can criticise the man for many things but not for trying to make money out of the club. Unless I?m mistaken, this is the man willing to remortgage his home the first time he tried to buy the club.

Feel this is another example of the No voters just throwing mud instead of trying to make serious, valid objections. And as for Wyness, don?t particularly trust the man but not convinced how much he would stand to make out of the move personally as he doesn?t own any of the club does he?

Steve Stott
26   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:25:52

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Mark Gray,

Why do you have to resort to cheap comments as ?I?ve lost all respect for you?. Why do the anti-Kirkby faction have to be so negative - at the end of the day we are all Evertonians. As I?ve said before on numerous occassions, instead of resorting to vicious scurrilious accusations which you believe you can throw around without any shred of evidence, why don?t you try and engage with Everton, Terry Leahy and Knowsley Council to make the move be to the benefit of all.
Alan Willo
27   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:08:30

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Now Cathy, whilst we should not be political about it, I think am starting to see the real picture about EFC and KEIOC. If you read the survey on the site then please don't ever critise EFC for being one-sided. KEIOC have wasted any chance of being taken seriously by doing this, the questions are so weak if makes me laugh.

People like you are what is bad in today?s world: PC losers, doo gooders whatever you want to be called, just wish to push your views on the general public who basically dont give a dam. Our city was left behind being run by left-wing idiots and unless we think in the real world then we will never progress.

Fight for or against the Kirkby move but we dont give a fuck about all the other crap you have supported. Footy and Politics are not what we want, EFC is the party, church or fringe group we follow and that all that matters. COYB left, middle and right!

Ajamu Mutumwa
28   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:24:45

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Mark Gray,

I’ve lost respect for the Anti Kirkby possee ages ago which is why I’ve been calling for a more mature debate.

Your post explains exactly why.

When you’re crammed in your telephone box with all your other more extremist mates, and Kirkby stadium is thriving, you might reflect on the fact that this miniscule minority, as bellicous, and beligerent as they are failed to make a dent on anything of significance.

I just hope that the more sensible anti Kirkby element don’t believe that throwing insults is the best way to make an argument.

I hope that there is some way to create common ground in this discussion- but with views like yours, I feel that it is nigh impossible.

PS. I will not be responding as it turns this into a dialgoue, and there are forums for such dialogue, so I apologise for responding more than I should have.
Andy Willox
29   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:34:28

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Ajaamu, and apologies to anyone else that?s raised this point, I?ve scrolled down to reply and may have missed it.
As well as those not receiving their allocated vote there were also those who received more than one, add to this countless Evertonia members who are not supporters of this club but support LFC and Man Utd, members to get access to the games at Goodison, then add the few spolied ballots, those on holiday, those with a change of address, am I getting somewhere? Probably not 10,000 but 10,000 wasn?t the difference was it?

This is wrong for Evertonians, not just the club.

David Kiely
30   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:39:23

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Willo - I thought you?d had your last word on the stadium subject last Friday?
David O'Keefe
31   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:41:32

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Cathy, part of the problem is that KEIOC have discredited themselves in the eyes of many fans by playing the hooliganism card.

Despite this, the fans should get start getting more political. Our brethren across the park get up in arms if Rafa is refused a tenner, we get asked to rubber stamp the suicide note of the century, based on lies, and not a murmer is heard.
Neil Pearse
32   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:19:32

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Mark Gray (and others), you should be ashamed of your abuse of a fellow Blue such as Ajamu. He clearly loves the club as much as you do, and is fully entitled to his difference in opinion.

What amazes me is how so many No voters write about the ground move as if it is all very obvious and easy. Clearly we should simply build a world class stadium in the city which befits our history, and then spend further tens of millions on the players we deserve to have play there.

Doesn’t it occur to you for even a moment that this is what we ALL would like?? To be utterly blunt about it, that we would ALL like to be playing in a new world class stadium on Stanley Park with the likes of Torres as our centre forward. OF COURSE WE WOULD!!

The difference of opinion is over what we should do as a club given that we cannot afford this. There is no obvious and easy answer. Indeed, none of our choices are particularly good: move to Kirkby with Tesco, stay in Goodison in the shadow of the New Anfield, go for some other option at the price of crippling levels of debt.

As a Yes voter all I am asking is that you face reality, and stop abusing us as ’sheep’ and ’mugs’ when we try to do so. Perhaps then you will stop abusing fellow Blues who just like you also want the best for the club.
David O'Keefe
33   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:47:41

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No one should be deploying the ad hominem and that goes for you as well.

As for the call for No voters to face reality, that is rather galling, considering the differences between the Wyness myth and reality.

My suggestion is that we should all hold the club to account regardless of how we voted. What has been promised has not been delivered.
David Kiely
34   Posted 27/04/2008 at 13:57:21

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Neil Pearse - I think your attempt to come across as the realist is pretty laughable, to be honest. To still believe that Kirkby would be the best of a bad set of options after the revelations we?ve had over the past few months beggars belief. In terms of cost and quality of stadium you KNOW now that you and everyone else who voted Yes in that ballot have been misled. Enough of the hand wringing about how you really *do understand* that Kirkby is not ideal but you?ll stick by it. Your position makes absolutely no sense.

And I still don't understand why ?time? is of the essence here. Perhaps you could explain that one. What - we need to shove our existing 36,000 average gate into a 50,000-seater stadium (if they can get there) in order to do catch Man Utd and Chelsea?

Dear me.
Neil Pearse
35   Posted 27/04/2008 at 14:10:25

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Davids - I guess I give up on this topic!

When I get in response such utter illogicality as saying that something is not ideal but may still be the best option "makes no sense". Lucky you David! Do you live in your ideal house with your ideal family and come home from your ideal job?? Perhaps like the rest of us you can’t always get your ideal, and have to settle for something else? That is the situation we as a club are in. Realism is facing up to the fact that you cannot always get your ideal.

Maybe I should just ask the both of you: what REAL option apart from Kirkby and redeveloping Goodison do you think we can actually afford? By the way, I don’t feel particularly misled about Kirkby either.
Neil Pearse
36   Posted 27/04/2008 at 14:17:17

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And David Kiely - time is of the essence because the sooner we get additional revenues, the sooner we can buy better players.
David Kiely
37   Posted 27/04/2008 at 14:26:52

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Neil - I fully understand the concept of ?settling?. Maybe it?s just that some of us have a broader appreciation of what?s possible by way of options. You feel that the less than state-of-the-art, Championship class stadium proposed in Kirkby is the only realistic outcome for a club like ours. We?ve been offered better in the recent past and I believe we?ll do best to not to commit to Kirkby and explore other options within the City of Liverpool - the place where we belong and where we stand to be better served transportation and support-wise.
38   Posted 27/04/2008 at 14:03:10

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Lets just explode a few myths.

1. there was a majority of 2386 to swing the yes vote we dont know how the other 10000 would have voted.

2. Everbody voted on what has been PROVEN to be lies and false propoganda.

3.If the vote was taken again today would the vote be different? Of course it would people’s opinions are changing daily in the light of more information.

4. GP is not about to fall down or be closed down.

5.KIrkby is not FREE and we wont even own the contaminated land the stadium will be built on.

6.There ARE other options and other enabling partners.

7.There ARE other locations with superior transport and infrastructure.

8.It is well known that KW is on a huge bonus for relocating us.Does that give him any incentive for redeveloping GP?

9. It is well known that KW has a long history of misleading people.

10. It is a fact that when BK ( who only had a house worth 1 million to his name)bought Johnson out for 20 million Evertons debts went up by 20 million a the same time.
This has never been explained properly.

Trevor Birch a well respected accountant and Insolvency expert came as CE for a few weeks.His sudden departure has never been explained.

Kirkby is not "The deal of the century" it is THE CRIME OF THE CENTURY.
David O'Keefe
39   Posted 27/04/2008 at 20:13:25

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"By the way, I don?t feel particularly misled about Kirkby either."

The essence of the hardcore Yes vote. Despite the cost of Kirkby being the Chris Fitz figure instead of the Wyness figure, a farcical transport plan, and only £10 million pound extra in turnover to be gained.

David Thompson
40   Posted 27/04/2008 at 20:15:14

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Chris Perry.... if ?only the best is good enough? why are you in favour of Kirkby? It?s described by Tesco as mid-level quality. That should be enough for you.

Perhaps the ?luddites? as you refer to then are simply upholding the true meaning of the motto.

Neal Pearse - is there any chance you could set out just how Kirkby will make Everton financially stronger. There have been no surveys undertaken by the club to find out the likely uptake of the extra 10,000 seats.

As I have said to you in other threads, it?s not just a case of ?if you build it they will come?. The fanbase is clearly split. Wyness admits we?ll lose up to 10,000 fans. The transport situation is a mess and will not retain any new fans that might be attracted. Everton are going to have to register themselves as a bus company and employ hundreds of people in traffic management roles.

We will have to borrow at least £60M... What is your case for saying we will be financially stronger? Let?s see the basis for your assertion.
Stephen Ryan
41   Posted 27/04/2008 at 23:09:49

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David, I asked Neil Pearce the same question last week and I?m still waiting for the answer. Come on Neil, you have banged on for the past 12 months about the financial benefits of Kirkby so can you please finally produce the figures to back up your argument?
Paul Gladwell
42   Posted 28/04/2008 at 08:55:04

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David if KEIOC have discredited themselves then what on earth has Wyness done with his endless lies, arrogant attitude to our fanbase? And all before you trace the man's history and these people still trust him with the greatest gamble in our clubs history, because, Yes or No, it is one hell of a gamble and I know which one is the safer of the two options as it has not done too bad over the past century and more.
Steve William
43   Posted 28/04/2008 at 11:13:11

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Let's be honest with ourselves, it's ok writing on forums and complaining about going to Kirkby, but what are you going to do about it???

I am anti-Kirkby and will never set foot in that ground as long as I live if it comes off, but while people are still buying season tickets (20,000 are reported on the official site if you believe that) the club will carry on with it.

I have held my season ticket for over 25yrs and this season is the first time without one. I have not and will not renew until thie project of Kirkby is dropped. It's killed me to be honest but I have to make my protest and I can't be responsible for part-funding the death of Everton Football Club.

If you all feel as strong as your posts suggest, do something that will make the club sit up and take notice of the fans and hit them in the pocket. It's no use saying "If we go to Kirkby I will not renew" because the deed will be done and there would be nothing you can do about it. But there is now!!

If you just bury your heads in the sand and hope it will go away, well it won't beleive me. But if you take your head out of the sand and do something about it, we have a chance. But its depends how strongly you feel about it.

Craig Ashford
44   Posted 28/04/2008 at 11:04:33

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I dont fancy cycling, especially from Cardiff it takes 4 hours driving. And Ajamu, When did more than 10,000 Evertonians get the official vote........
Steve William
45   Posted 28/04/2008 at 11:52:18

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I got my voting form the day after it closed as did my daugher and her partner so maybe we were some of the 10,000 without a choice. Did you know that kopites got a vote? Well some of them did , they joined the Evertonia scheme to get a Derby ticket and qualified for a vote. I know, I seen it with my own eyes off this tit who works for me, or well he did.
Paul Gladwell
46   Posted 28/04/2008 at 12:03:03

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Steve, I have to agree with you, I have renewed but I wonder why I did when I see and hear the utter garbage and lies we are fed. Put it simply, they treat us like dickheads and each year I come closer and closer to doing what you have done. How are they going to replace your kind?

All this talk of 50,000 stadiums with exec boxes! Look at our attendances over the past 30 years, we averaged 27,000 when we were last Champions, this ground move will lose more than gain more supporters.

Barry Scott
47   Posted 28/04/2008 at 12:17:54

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Simple question... Is Keith Wyness prediction of £10M extra revenue per season a gross or net increase? He hasn?t made it very clear.
Peter Eastoe
48   Posted 28/04/2008 at 12:22:53

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Infantile leftism. A phrase which sums up your paranoid ramblings.
I don?t particularly want to play in the arse end of the world which is Kirkby but all this X Files shite about Wyness, Kenwright and Leahy... the evil capitalist conspirators, is just beneath contempt. I would expect more coherent ramblings from a baboon.
Steve William
49   Posted 28/04/2008 at 12:24:46

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Barry, he hasn't made anything clear mate. He is saying £10M, that will probably be the overall amount to spend, not extra. The man is a total liar which is clear, that's if he is still there if we move. He will be off to conn some other poor fucker and ruin them as well.
David O'Keefe
50   Posted 28/04/2008 at 12:38:59

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I agree, and I should add that a discredited fans group has had its reputation restored by the said CEO?s legal threats.
Liam Young
51   Posted 28/04/2008 at 12:41:20

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How can you say it would be cheaper to re-develop Goodison? Without the aid of a financial backer like Tesco, we would have to foot all the bills. And we all know money doesn't grow on trees. I love goodison, I love our history, but I'm not going to turn my back on the Blues beacuse of moving to Kirkby.

Has anyone every thought that having a ground like Goodison, that's the reason we don't attract new investors. And I don't believe Bill is doing this for his financial gain entirely, the problem is, some people have a go at him for not selling to a more flush pocketed investor, yet if he does sell, people will accuse him of selling his ass. No Middle ground at all!!!

Straight and narrow, football is a business whether we want to accept it or not, and staying at Goodison is not a viable option. I believe Kenwright will only sell to the right investor when he does, but i can tell you now, there is more opportunity of choice for investors if we are situated in a new stadium like Kirkby.

So many of you have your idealistic approaches, but the problem this day and age, you can't have your cake and eat it. All I want to see is the best for Everton, and I will always support our club, no matter what, but we need to be relalistic.

All of you who are not going to support Everton if they move, I can't understand anyone who can just drop the club like that.

Steve William
52   Posted 28/04/2008 at 13:13:16

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Liam, do you realy think Tesco give a fuck about Everton? They're interested only in there retail park and have openly said if the retail park size is cut it will not be a viable project. They are only interested in Tesco and couldnt give a fuck. We are just advertisemnt for Tesco.

Ok, £120mil to re develop goodison and keeping the 10,000 or so fans Wyness says we would loose if we go to Kirkby or £78/100 mil to go to Kirkby loose 10,000+ fans and not have that revenue coming through the gates week-in, week-out, plus the £50 mil debt we already have, plus the residents parking Everton (not Tesco) have to fund, plus the park-n-ride Everton (not Tesco) have to fund.

it only leads me to one word: DEBT ? that's all we will have. The deal of the century will kill this club and if you can't see that, well have a nice time waiting for a bus for the park-n-ride in pissing down rain to get back to your car at Aintree. Or you could just put your cape on and cycle like the estimated 1000.... Wake up! If you want the best for Everton look away from Kirkby.

Jay Harris
53   Posted 28/04/2008 at 15:05:41

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Liam, have you paid any attention to the debate on Kirkby.


It says so in the application.

Also if you look into the costings put forward for developing GP it can be done for less than the cost of Kirkby and it can be done over time as we can afford it.

Why then are BK/KW so keen on the Kirkby move?

IMO £100 million plus loan can create the opportunity for a lot of creative accounting and the reputed huge bonus that Bully gets if we move.

Steve William
54   Posted 28/04/2008 at 15:26:35

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Well said, Jay.
Some people can only see the thought of watching in a stadium like the Emirates or something. Dream on ? have you seen Colchester's new stadium built by Barrs who have been commisioned to build ours??? My god, it's awful, there are pictures of it on the keioc site. Note the similarity

Rumour has it that Tesco will take a percentage of any money spent inside the ground on caterting etc. I have writen to Mr Wyness to ask him if it was true but, as of yet, still no reply, two weeks down the line.
Gerard Madden
55   Posted 28/04/2008 at 16:00:29

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I feel I must make a comment to rebutt the nonesense and disinformation from one or two people here, namely the ?fact? it would cost cheaper or just as much to re-develop Goodison over the move to Kirkby. It would be far far and away more expensive to redevelop Goodison because you would have to knock down stands and rebuild them, thus losing important revenue in the meantime as the new stands get built and it would take quite a few years to say the least to complete the expensive process that would cripple the club ? don't forget too you are very unlikely to get a naming rights deal for an old ?done up? ground and of course you would make no money from the sale of the place because... erm... we would be staying there. Goodison redevelopment is simply not an option.

Thankfully we have a great deal very much in motion where we only have to pay £78m for a brand new 50,000 (extendable to 60,000) new ground just 4 miles away in a strong scouse heartland. Much of that £78m should be found from naming rights and the sale of Goodison and Bellefield, any shortfall would mean a small amount of additional debt ? but far less than the debt Goodison redevelopment or a smaller site in the city would bring without a partner like Tesco.

Jay Harris
56   Posted 28/04/2008 at 17:06:37

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I know you?re very pro-Kirkby but I don't know where you get your facts that GP cannot be developed economically when proven engineers and architects have put together plans and costings that the current regime refuse to consider. These plans would ultimately make GP a million times better stadium than The Kikbydome on Tesco car park in some hard to get to backwater on contaminated land.

You are welcome to your opinion but when independent experts (unlike Tesco?s team) tell you something can be done at a certain cost they are usually not far wrong.

I place more trust in them than proven liars with their own agenda.

Jay Harris
57   Posted 28/04/2008 at 17:26:37

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1. There is no money from GP as it's already fully mortgaged.

2.Naming rights will probably be about £2.5 million per year over 5 to 7 years hardly enough to pay an annual interest bill of about £10 million

3.Questions have still to be answered about who will pay the £52 million shortfall until and if enabling retail development is found

4.You only have to look at the transport experts response to the proposed Park and Ride, which has now become Park and Walk or Take a Bike scheme.

Kirkby is just WRONG WRONG WRONG

David Thompson
58   Posted 28/04/2008 at 17:43:14

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Mr Madden.

Do you think any money for naming rights would be paid up front or over a period?

If it’s up front, it would be a first in this country.

If it’s over a period, then it would have to be borrowed on account - securitised - thus reducing it’s value and adding to overall debt.

Which do you think it is?

Tom Hughes
59   Posted 28/04/2008 at 17:51:03

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Disinformation? Are you joking? Or Is GM a nom de plume for KW? "Practically nothing" went to £78m, what would you call that? £78m means there must be alternatives, so what would you call "no plan B". I’ve asked you repeatedly to tell us precisely what could be achieved at GP for the same amounts now being bandied about, with more to come I’m sure. Instead you try justify your stance with totally unsubstantiated and poorly researched statements, all the time ignoring the fact that what you voted for no longer exists....... It never did!
Andy Willox
60   Posted 28/04/2008 at 20:48:58

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Tom Hughes, you have on each occassion put forward the most reasoned of arguments, but this time you have it in a nutshell with "what you voted for no longer exists". Thank you.

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