A while back (maybe a year) someone responded to a piece I?d written saying ..
"..anyone who is still harping on that Everton can?t leave for whatever reason shouldn?t call themselves Evertonians. THEY are the people wh will kill the soul of the club." It was part of a long piece and I found it genuinely interesting.
Well because he was obviously passionate enough to spend time writing down his thoughts on the matter and putting forward his ?opinions? (opinions I?m sure he knew would be seen as dumb/annoying by many). His post also (well.. to me) posed the question, "What is YOUR Everton?"
I?ll try to explain... Supporter A and Supporter B are both Everton supporters:
Supporter A): ?We all love Goodison but it?s time to move on ? we?re being given a free ground, Terry Leahy is a blue, Kenwright is a blue, Kirkby is only down the road, let?s get behind them. Imagine 55,000 blues roaring them on in a brand new state-of-the-art stadium!?
Supporter b): ?The idea of Everton FC relocating to Kirkby is one that I despise, I don?t know if I will be able to think of them as Everton FC if they move there. I believe that we will actually LOSE not gain supporters. I will almost certainly pack in going.?
Very basically, these are the opposite points of view we?ve heard/expressed on the move-or-not debate. What has become obvious over the whole ?yes/no to Kirkby? debate, is that Everton Football Club means COMPLETELY different things, to different Everton supporters.
We DON?T all see the club (or the ?function? of the club) the same way. You think this? I think that. And as I think B, it turns out, his Everton, is NOT my Everton.
This (to me) has proved a bit of a revelation. I?m 48 and none of this would have ever occurred, if not for the ground-move issue. I?d have continued to believe we we?re basically all the same ? ?Evertonians?. You might say "We ARE all the same ? we all love Everton."
Technically true... we all love something CALLED Everton Football Club, but what that ?Everton? is, is clearly VERY different for everyone. This must (logically) be the case, otherwise...well, everyone would see things exactly the same way. There?d be no argument/debate regarding the move
? it would have been 85-90% ?No? or ?Yes?.
So, again, what is YOUR Everton?
Well, for those who see nothing wrong with the move to Kirkby (or out of Liverpool.... or the part of Liverpool Everton currently ?live in?), the club must be seen as basically (nb: I say basically NOT totally) the shirt, the badge and the name ? and those things must be seen as things that CAN be moved without losing anything important. If a person were to see a club this way, it?s easy to see how they would have no problem moving that club anywhere really... (Is this familiar? ? "If your a real blue, you?ll go anywhere to watch em!")
However, this thought process and being able to say "Yes we all love Goodison but we?ve got to move on" tells me they see the club in a TOTALLY different way to me (and thousands of others). For those who see the club like me, it is evidently much more... um... complicated.
For me, the club CAN?T be moved just anywhere!
Fact: 37,000 Evertonians WON?T go to the Isle of Sky to watch them ? yes, I exaggerate to make a point, but a point it is. (I?m still interested in where else would have been OK, for those prepared to move out of the city. St Helens? Rainhill? Stafford? Seriously ? I?m not being facetious)
And why do I believe the club can?t be moved outside of the city? Because... it just can?t and I just do. Now if THAT sounds illogical, good, because in a roundabout way, that?s my ?point?.
For those who see Everton FC like I do, the issue of moving can?t have ?logic? applied.
Because we KNOW (and understand) that supporting Everton is an illogical act. For the past (almost) six years, I have missed just 5 or 6 home games (and managed a few aways including Europe). All the games I have attended have involved a flight to Liverpool (or somewhere else) from Dublin. This has meant money (thousands), time at airports and getting up at 4:00am Mondays to be back in work in Dublin at 9:00am. For 20 years before that, it meant a train from London and all the horror and expense that involved.
For much of my life, this type of effort and expense has been spent on a team/club that has underachieved... You want me to start applying logic!? REALLY!? But...logic says save money, stay at home and watch Barcelona or Arsenal coz they play the best football (nb: that?s how logic works!)
My ?argument? works like this: Everton FC are part of the community they?re in now and have been in for more than 100 years ? that?s why we can?t move to Kirkby. And....that?s it.
People like me believe when you think about where Everton should be, it makes no sense to think about it with your head. Why? Well because once you do, you start to chip away at the one beautifully irrational, illogical thing in your life. Everything else has to make sense, paying bills, shopping, work, rent etc etc.... Once Everton does ? I?m out.
I?ll admit my packing-in will not be ONLY to do with the move to Kirkby. I also accept that there are generational differences and (re Everton), to a degree, I live in the past. I railed against all-seater stadiums, the smoking ban, I detest Sky, the way the game?s ?gone soft?, what I believe are bent refs that favour the ?Sky Four?, etc etc etc....
Because I wouldn?t entertain the idea of a move to Kirkby, a feller said I would kill the ?soul? of the club? Because I wouldn?t entertain the idea of a move to Kirkby, I was accused of not being an Evertonian?
Well, there is an element of truth to this.
Because The Everton Football Club he talked about (ie: a team that can be moved here and there at the whim of fat greedy businessmen who see Everton as just an asset) are definitely NOT my Everton and never will be. The point is, I love MY Everton, but I?m not in the least bit interested in Gerard Madden?s and I can say definitely, I?ll never go to Kirkby to watch them.
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 27/05/2008 at 19:54:33
2 Posted 27/05/2008 at 20:11:38
3 Posted 27/05/2008 at 20:48:43
4 Posted 27/05/2008 at 21:30:41
Listening to people on here trying to justify how this move out of our city is the only way to go makes me want to throw up.
To me and thousands others it really dosn’t matter if their building the nou camp for nothing with free taxis to take us and bring us back, it wont be Everton, and I want no part in it.
5 Posted 27/05/2008 at 22:23:50
My point is that Kirkby is Liverpool/scouse because to say otherwise is to denegrates its people and its history.. It?s time to get over the ?boundary? thing otherwise those of you who say they won?t go to Kirkby will live the rest of your life full of sorrow and regret..and yes, you will lose your soul!!
PS: Do you want to share with that lot across the park? because that?s the next option!
6 Posted 27/05/2008 at 22:39:21
7 Posted 28/05/2008 at 00:05:37
I’ll tell you what is NOT my Everton:
The secretive cloak and daggers philosophy of the so called "People’s club" brigade and their total incompetence and embarassment to Everton Football Club.
Give me a man who will look you in the face and tell it how it is anytime.
8 Posted 28/05/2008 at 00:06:59
9 Posted 28/05/2008 at 00:12:15
1. Politically,geographically and commercially it IS NOT in Liverpool and a lot of Evertonians do not want that.
2. The location is a disaster waiting to happen.
Transport and infrastructure for 40000 people as opposed to over 1 million in Liverpool.
A commercial backwater that will probably not attract much if any corporate business.
Decontaminated land that will cost millions to build on.
waving the white flag to LFC.
But most of all for me personally I have no faith whatsoever in the people running the club.
10 Posted 28/05/2008 at 03:17:53
I hope I don’t get crucified for saying my own thoughts of ’Everton’. For me personally, ’Everton’ has become more of an ideal than a physical, tangible location in the City of Liverpool when football is played in a stadium called Goodison Park. Everton is Nil Satis Nisi Optimum. Everton is to strive for the best, to be the best. It is demonstrated, interpreted and displayed for the world to see in how it conducts the football being played. The whole organization is centered towards providing the best environment to support this ideal. Everton play in royal blue.
The current and future owners and managers of Everton are but custodians to a club, that was built before their fathers were born. They have their duty towards upholding the ideals to which ’Everton’ represents, for now and the future. Everton is modern, changes with the times, innovative in it’s School of Science.
Take a look at your Everton jersey or where you can find our badge. We’ve had several renditions of the badge over the years. However, even during the dark and turmoil days of recent years we have still proudly included those words which are associated with ’Everton’. It is not ’Located in Liverpool’. It is not ’Redevelop Goodison Park’. It is not ’Strive for Fourth Place’. It is not ’The People’s Club’. IT IS ’NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM’.
We will always go through tough times and be sure there will be tough times ahead. As supporters we go through shit day in day out. Our love ones go but new life brings new joy and hope.
But the day they take away those immortal words and erase them forever from our legacy only then is it the day ’Everton’ dies. Evertonians! Look to your badge, it written there in front of your heart!
11 Posted 28/05/2008 at 08:16:52
12 Posted 28/05/2008 at 08:29:42
I come from between Scotland Road amd Netherfield road.. Great Homer street was my playground. Everton Brow was mylink to Everton FC.
You see to me its more than just a scouse thing, its tribal within an area of Liverpool. Thats what Everton means to me. Its an association just as much as Anfield is to Liverpool supporters ( I wouldn’t even walk down Breck Road on a Sat because it wasn;t my patch.) No, Great Homer Street, Scotland Raod, Kirkdale, the Valley .. all linked to the tribal district of our club.
So to me its more personal than even just being in Liverpool.. its a part of Liverpool that belongs to Everton, and Everton belong to that area.
13 Posted 28/05/2008 at 08:36:49
14 Posted 28/05/2008 at 10:06:15
Add to the fact that everything our CEO says and does always comes across as a lie or a total disregard for anyones else's view, this just makes me not want to trust him with the controls to my TV nevermind the biggest decision of my beloved clubs history, the club I have worshipped for 39 years.
15 Posted 28/05/2008 at 09:53:33
I think it has raised an issue with regards to the anti Kirkby brigade in that alot of blues may not purely be anti Kirkby but pro-goodison only.
I am against Kirkby for a multitude of reasons but ironically the fact that it’s in Kirkby is one of, but not the main reason. My main reason is that the proposed stadium quite simply doesn’t reflect the size and stature of Everton Football Club. At that point the project is not good enough for my Everton.
You are obviously firmly in the GFE camp and I firmly admire this stance as for me it has to be the no 1 option. Every single resource should be put into redeveloping Goodison before we consider anything else. If Goodison became a liability then fine lets look elsewhere but I feel we are a long way from that yet.
If Goodison does become detrimental to the greater cause (the ongoing progress of the club) then lets move. But lets not swap an Aston Martin for a Volvo.
Sureley though no one is more attached to the Ground than the club itself however good the memories??
16 Posted 28/05/2008 at 10:51:03
If tomorrow I had Abramovich-style ackers and could buy the club, we would be staying at Goodison.
It would get a lick of paint, the structure would be checked (to prove it?s not going to fall down in 20 minutes as suggested by Mr Beef) and the rest of my easily-earned cash would go on players.
Maybe after we?d won a few titles, I?d think about increasing the size of the place to between 45,000 and 50,000 to accommodate all the new Sky Evertonians.
I?d also have a stack of letters printed saying "It?s football not fucking ballet!" which would be sent as responses to anyone who complained about swearing, pre-match food, the bogs, etc.
To anyone who said ?You?re disgustingly wealthy and we need a new state-of-the-art ground", I?d have a similar letter.
"NEED!? We only play there for 90 mins, every two weeks for 9 months!! There?s a pitch, seats and you can get a pie. What do you want the Taj Ma-bleedin-hal!!?"
(Sorry!- just shows what money does to people eh?....TERRY!!)
However, I would NOT oppose the building of a new Ground within the city (well...not to the degree I oppose Kirkby).
If there was a vote - Walton Hall or Goodison, yes I?d vote for Goodison, but WOULD accept the vote if if went the other way.
In fact when ?The Banks Of The Royal Blue Mersey? was mooted, mentally I did accept that a move from Goodison, in my lifetime, was probably be inevitable.
Kirkby though, I can?t and won?t accept.
I don?t know if a move out of the city will be ?the death of Everton?, but as long as that?s a remote, remote, remote, remote possibility - (and it IS that!) - that?s enough for me to say never.
17 Posted 28/05/2008 at 11:16:07
I couldn?t make my mind up on this one whether it was "coherently incoherent" or "incoherently coherent". Then I realised that the real beauty lay in not really knowing.
Some will read it, I?m sure, and say "eh?" I hope they do, too.
That?s the point: you either get it or you don?t. If you don?t, then you never will. If you do, then it doesn?t need explaining. Just doesn?t.
But this much I do know, though: the more I search for "what Everton is" the more I feel like I?m trying to grasp fresh air (or the cash-grabbing opening credits of Budgie for those who recall). Coz it can?t be the players or the manager as they change all the time; nor can it be the shirts because they do too; nor can it be the "blue" because we share that with others; it probably can?t be ground either because I?ve seen that change enough over my 41 years (been going since 1972 - and you can?t even see the church now).
Then I realise that it?s an indefinable state-of-mind and state-of-being. It?s about being "not something" every bit as much as it is about demonstrably "being something."
It?s an instinct. You have just one opportunity in your life to open your heart, your spirit and your senses in order to allow it to enter deep within you and then unload and unpack its potent contents (think zip files for the teccies) and thereafter your whole system is hard-wired. Forever. If you miss that opportunity then no amount of pretence or affectation can replicate the true "state of being."
Thereafter, everything within you just operates on an instinct. And it?s this instinct which tells me that while I find the idea of, say, playing in the most southerly parts of Sefton (i.e. outside of the city) not exactly fab, I know I could "be" there (Bootle parts, or Derby Road areas).
It?s the same instinct that tells me that Kirkby is a disaster waiting to happen (but I?m past trying to articulate why so - tired even). And while I fear I might end up "being" there physically (I?m in the give-it-a-shot-but-you-can-sod-buying-a-season-ticket camp) I know I?ll never able to truly "be" there.
You either get that. Or you don?t.
Top drawer, Eej.
18 Posted 28/05/2008 at 13:36:59
My Everton plays in Blue has a badge with the overnight prison on the brow on it and answers to Everton Football Club......hmmm...yes they are still there.
MY Everton plays football on a green pitch, be that at Goodison, Kirkby, Bootle (ouside of Liverpool) or miles away in Speke, they will still be my Everton and nothing will change that.
We are irrational fans debating a serious and rational issue and we will never agree 100% all together, if we did you can bet a faction would turn around and say, "Do you know what, I may have been wrong, I don’t actually agree"
You touch upon fans who state they will not go, talk about your self fulfilling prophecies. These fans say that moving to Kirkby will kill our club and attendences will dwindle.....ermmmmm.......no shit! if the apparant "true fans" will not pop down the road to watch them what hope do we have?
19 Posted 28/05/2008 at 14:02:13
Those who understand, need no explanation
I doubt if anyone will ever again waste there breath trying to explain to you
True fans ? the 5 posters before you are proper, proper Evertonians
20 Posted 28/05/2008 at 14:27:26
21 Posted 28/05/2008 at 14:43:16
Explain what? That they have a different view point to me? Or that they won’t support Everton anymore if we move over an imaginary border?
I suppose the season ticket I keep renewing at Goodison and will keep renewing wherever we end up makes me less of an Evertonian that those who won’t follow the team possibly out of the city?
Paul, Everton will always be Everton to me unless they change their name.
22 Posted 28/05/2008 at 14:51:52
23 Posted 28/05/2008 at 15:16:21
During the game itself I am engrossed in the football, I hardly register what is going on around me apart to turn to mates to moan about Nevill ;-) and I certainly don’t worry if there is a Tesco’s right outside of the stadium
24 Posted 28/05/2008 at 15:39:51
25 Posted 28/05/2008 at 16:38:37
You can?t have a decent debate over all things Everton without the "K" word being brought up these days. And with the slight hint of a Yes voter posting suddenly accusations of a fan not being a proper Evertonian arise because he agrees with the move.
I don?t agree with it but yet there are people like Alan Wilo (a regular poster on this site) who was christened in St Lukes and has had a season ticket for years who do. He is just as "True" an Evertonian as the No voters it?s just that he has a different opinion on the matter then mine.
And it is my guess that IF we did move (I hope we don?t ? but if we did) then alot of the defiant I won?t go No voters will swallow some pride and go. I know I will if it?s where we are playing but does that make me an "Un-True" supporter? I think not.
26 Posted 28/05/2008 at 17:06:39
Unfortunately, it was Tony Williams who decided to play that card and I have had issues with his approach to "defending" his perspectives on previous occasions. Let’s keep the debate reasonable please, and not descend into this childish playground nonsense.
27 Posted 28/05/2008 at 17:29:39
Fourth response down.
28 Posted 28/05/2008 at 17:26:38
My own deffinition of a fan is one that goes the game, I purposely did not use the word Evertonian, as everyone as correctly said, we are all true Evertonians. Well! then again apparantly according to Dave Wilson I am not because I don’t support his views over Kirkby.
29 Posted 28/05/2008 at 18:07:49
You say "Paul, Everton will always be Everton to me unless they change their name".
I will simply say that when Wimbledon’s move to Milton Keynes was first suggested, they didn’t say to the supporters "And we’ll be changing our names to MK Dons!"
That came later.
We always hear people using the excuse (after a huge fuck-up) ’Well it’s ok being wise after the event"
I’m suggesting being wise before it.
30 Posted 28/05/2008 at 18:33:38
once again its you, every time you post you look for an argument
once again you make things up to support the argument you seem desperate to have, its pathetic !
Where the fuck do I say you are not an Evertonian, ???
You whine about self fullfilling prophecys, and rant about "true fans" yet the loyal blues who posted before you only spoke of "their Everton" unfortunately you dont get it, so you resort to being abusive I’ll repeat what I said, they are proper, proper evertonians
One more thing, I’ll let you into a little secret, When you make things up to justify an argument you want to have, all other posters have to do is scroll back and they can see you’ve made it up,
Try it , it may stop you doing it in future
31 Posted 28/05/2008 at 19:12:32
’Being wise before it’........mmmmm
Scenario for you.....the meddling useless excuse for a council make so many waves that the Kirkby project is shelved!
Fantastic....the minority say!
Then what?.........we groundshare!.......but the RS don’t want us!......shall we beg?....I hope not........and can we afford our 50%.......at least 150 million......I don’t think so....do you?
So what do we do next.......extend the grand olde lady.......will our wonderful council allow us to knock houses down and extend.......debateable..........bearing in mind a huge carbuncle is being built on the park overshadowing us even more!!
And if we can’t afford any more than one stand...........where will we be?
And who will our potential investors be?
I think reality has to set in. we need a new stadium, we have a small pot of cash, we have no fairy godmother!
We have an opportunity to relocate, rebrand, move forwards, modernise.
We are getting ahead of ourselves, as a club we are punching above our weight, this new stadium gives us a chance to punch our weight at minimal cost to the club.
Yes, I agree the biggest bugbear is location........but how did our fellow Evertonians feel all those years ago when we moved across the park!....
So on this emotive subject.....what is wise?......it’s a heart and head syndrome and in this case, sadly the head has to rule. This a fantastic opportunity for Everton Football Club.
32 Posted 28/05/2008 at 20:00:25
Rs start to build their carbuncle, the spiraling cost plunges them further into the shit, they come cap in hand asking us to share, but we fuck them off, we have bought the few houses that were stopping us and are building two towering stands - right facing them - for a fraction of what they are paying for the carbuncle- The difference in capacities is about the same as the one between Rangers + Celtic
RS sit whining about how much it cost to get in and how dear the pies are, they look back on the days when they pissed where they stood on the Kop, They’re sick as sea going parrots
EFC are too busy buying players with all the money we saved by giving Kirkby a wide berth
Loads of new trendy wine bars and restaurants spring up in anticipation of the business carbuncle attendees would provide, but guess what ? they even open when we are at home ! !
all this AND still County Rd for the diehards
33 Posted 28/05/2008 at 20:17:51
EJ, so not going to Kirkby is your idea of "being wise". I guess that means that going to Kirkby is "unwise"? Just reading between the lines.....
Again, the implication being that those who are against going to Kirkby are right, and those in favour are wrong.
As I have said before, at this stage there is no right or wrong, merely differing opinions, as no-one knows what will happen if we move.
And, Dave, about that self-fulfilling prophecy, the more fans who refuse to go to Kirkby, the less successful that move will be. (and I remember the debate the last time I stated that "fact"!).
Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me...
The success or otherwise of the move to Kirkby will largely depend on how many of us follow. So, guys, it’s over to you - are you coming with us, or not?
34 Posted 28/05/2008 at 20:36:27
What are you going to do on a Saturday afternoon instead? What about 4:50pm when the final whistle goes - are you going to wonder how the boys got on?
Sorry, I just don’t understand...
35 Posted 28/05/2008 at 20:38:37
Without sounding patronising Everton played at Anfield for eight years, there were no ashes buried there, archibald leitch,catterick and Deans last heartbeats and only one of our 15 trophys paraded there, its a silly shout that one and we all know something needs to be done but what price is all what I mentioned worth?
In my eyes it certainly isn’t a cheap flat pack out of our city of birth, one city one team! but people call you for being bothered about what they say, well sorry lads I do , I work with them and it cuts me up because I love my club more than they do.
36 Posted 28/05/2008 at 20:46:09
I would love that dream to happen, but I fear ....it won?t ......unfortunately!....why......becausethe useless Council will not allow it to!
I am sick as an Evertonian of being treated like a second class citizen in liverpool by that council, why is it when it looks likely that we may move that the prats put their collective heads over the parapet and talk shite!
Unfortunately the rs will be bailed out and I fear the carbuncle built!......it will make us even more second best....and further behind where we should be.
We need to move to give us an opportunity to compete, Moyes cannot keep us where we are alone!
37 Posted 28/05/2008 at 20:58:46
I’ll tell you what, let’s stay where we are put our heads in the sand and not progress as a football club!
Goodison is an old shambles of a stadium in need of major redevelopment that we cannot afford.
Evertom Football Club to me is about the team and the fans and then the stadium !
We have to progress, have a look around Goodison, take the rose coloured glasses off and realise how poor the area actually is!
So if you are happy to stay...so be it, you may still get your wish.....but be careful what you wish for, it might just be the worst thing we could do.
As I have stated before the head and not the heart has to rule here!
Also, re the gibe ....a cheap flatpack.......I think it looks good.....can Tesco....our partner afford it to look bad?.......no I don’t think so either.
And yes I was purposely being provovative re moving from the other stadium but the principle is the same.....we moved to a new home!
38 Posted 28/05/2008 at 20:47:31
I wondering when the second part of the double act would show up
What are you talking about implication ?
This was an amusing interesting thread, then T Williams barges in with an agressive post, whinning about "true fans"
If there was an implication, it was he should be more respectful to true (proper ) Evertonians,
they had only given the honest account of what "their" Everton is,
As for understanding, its quite obvious you dont understand the no voters, who fear "their" Everton wont survive moving out of the city, this may come as a blinding revelation to you but I dont understand the yes vote, I even submitted an article recently saying so,
As for the self fulfiling prophecy nonsense, whats all that about ? The people who voted yes are the "self" the people who say they wont go are out from the start. Any team based in Kirkby will never be Everton to them so how can it be self fullfilling ?
39 Posted 28/05/2008 at 21:58:23
What double act is this you are talking about? Is it because Bob could see what I was saying and also agreed that your devilishly well hidden dig at me not being a proper Evertonian, not exactly Krypton Factor stuff really.
I will explain again what I mean by the self-fulfilling prophecy. You have fans, some season ticket holders saying that a move to Kirkby will in turn mean a downfall in attendences and then usually in the same post they say they will not go ergo fulfilling the prophecy that they have suggested.
How have I barged in to a free football forum, aren’t I allowed to have my say? What is aggressive about my on topic post?
You suggest that I should be more respectful to "true" "proper" Evertonians, two points, respect is earned and secondly why are the posters above "proper" Evertonians more than I? Just because they share your view point on a subject? A bit pompous that mate.
40 Posted 28/05/2008 at 21:55:50
Next you’ll be stating that we’re one and the same person, posting under different aliases to make it look like there are two "Yes" voters in the world instead of one!
Anyway, you win this week’s award for stating the obvious, when you say that I don’t understand the "No" voters, since I had just said exactly that same thing myself.
As for a self fulfilling prophecy, I’m not entirely sure I understand your English in your sentence - however, if you can’t see how this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, there is no amount of words I could use to explain it to you, you obviously don’t want to understand it.
So what ARE you going to be doing on a Saturday afternoon when I’m watching MY Everton playing at Kikrby?
41 Posted 28/05/2008 at 22:15:21
Who knows what we will do? Maybe most people will go who have voted no, neither you or I can know the answer to that. What we do know is regardless of the original ballot the proposal is not exactly popular is it? Most broadsheets who have reported about the ground move in the recent past conceed this point, do you refute this?
The excellent article by EJ Ruane articulates many Evertonians feelings about the ground move. To help you understand why some people will jack it all in I suggest you read the article. If you have read it I apologise.
I have the same difficulty understanding how Evertonians could vote for Destination Kirkby.
42 Posted 28/05/2008 at 22:58:50
Most posters (yes and no)are concerned that we have little or no money and will therefore have to borrow and even if we get bankrolled by a rich investor this will probably still be the case.
However I believe the key criteria should not be cost but return on investment.
For example if you could demonstrate that by borrowing 100 million to develop GP into a much better proposition than spending 80 million on Kirkby you would generate more surplus income then it’s a no brainer.
Yes posters keep going on about Kirkby being good because of the retail enabling development but that will mainly benefit Tesco not us.
No posters will point to the fact we could commercially develop GP anyway with hotel,restaurant and bar space which will be even more attractive to investors(although I hate to say it)because of the RS superbowl over the road.
To my mind and many others ROI (Return on investment) starts with location and then infrastructure.
Any potential commercial investor would not even consider comparing Kirkby with a 40000 population to Liverpool with an infrastructure built for over 1 million so even if the costs are greater (and we dont know that they are)the returns will be significantly greater.
43 Posted 29/05/2008 at 00:04:32
a) We haven’t got 80 mill!
b) How far will the new stadium be from the city?.....still the same catchment area methinks!....behave!
c) Who will get the investment....Ye Olde Goodison or the carbuncle......no brainer isn’t it!
we need the new stadium!......fullstop!
44 Posted 29/05/2008 at 00:28:14
"take the rose coloured glases off and see how poor the area is" Yet another Yes voter who uses this spurious argument when making their case out to move to Kirkby.
I have no problem with an Evertonian who believes that we must move to Kirkby in order to compete with the big boys, although I think they are sadly deluded. I do have a problem when they denigrate an area of Liverpool in order to try and bolster their arguments in favour of leaving this city.
Our red friends have their stadium in the same area, yet they don?t seem to mind staying. In fact I guess they would have a riot if their owner tried to get them to move to Kirkby. So try and think of positive reasons for what you believe will be a move that benefits our club.
EJ Ruane, yours is a really fine post. It truely is about "what Everton do you support" I cannot imagine our club (and I say this knowing I?m only a supporter) even dreaming of leaving our city. It sends all the wrong signals out to the world. Even now we have a hard time trying to makeour name known as a major player in English football. If vwe move out of this city, I fear we will just become "a team" but with no history, no sense of place and no tradition.
We?ll become the Milton Keynes Dons of the Premier League... at least that is my fear.
What really depresses me is that I cannot help but believe that Kenwright is taking this option because it allows him to stay as Chairman. I don?t believe he is considering this move because it will benefit him financially, although it might. I just think he wants to stay as chair because of something within himself. Illogical? maybe but we are supporters of, IMOH the finest club in the country. And it is now fast approaching a time when a move can regenerate, or consign to the also-rans, our club.
I cannot find it in my heart to go to Kirkby to watch the blues. Purely and simply because I will always feel we have surrendered our city to the reds.
45 Posted 29/05/2008 at 02:22:16
maybe I missed the point but if we have’nt got 80 million we wont be able to build Kirkby let alone any new stadium.
If your point is we will have to borrow it the cost of borrowing remains the same no matter WHERE you spend it.
I just believe the return will be a lot higher in Liverpool than in Kirkby.
As regards catchment area I dont believe Kirkby and Walton are the same.
There are many people able to commute to Walton that wont be able to commute to Kirkby.
Many fans walk to GP and I believe many of them will not or may not be able to get to Kirkby.
The transport issue alone will take many of the existing supporters out of the equation.
46 Posted 29/05/2008 at 05:36:35
I’ll type this really for you
If I said to you, "I’ll get fired from my job in two weeks" then I take every day off and my boss fires me, that chaps, would be a very basic example of self fullfilling prophecy
If I say to you "you"ll get fired in two weeks" then you take every day off and your boss fires you, that chaps would not be a self fullfilling prophecy, getting it ?
As as for devilishly well hidden digs.
I’m not cunning enough, I call a spade a spade mate, for example, I would never call anyone a dope hidden behind the safety of my keyboard, that would be construed by all as gutless and cowardly
When I said you dont understand the no vote. I began the sentence, "as for understanding" It was to let you know I was quoting you, do you need the difference between quoting and stating the obvious explained to you too ?
Finally, I wont be claiming you are the same person, but thanks any way Bob for telling me what I’ll next be stating and to Tony for changing what I said
I wont cross swords with you two again, you make an formidable couple, one can rewrite history and the other one can predict the fucking future
47 Posted 29/05/2008 at 07:55:35
Stating that you’ll be claiming that Tony and I are the same person isn’t predicting the future, it’s called SARCASM - obviously wasted on you.
I hope you enjoy whatever you’re going to be doing on a Saturday afternoon, I’ll be off to watch my Everton.
Ed, I have read the article, and I agree, it was an excellent article, insofar as it explains how EJ feels about Everton moving. I still don’t understand why he, and others, will refuse to go to Kirkby though. Your definition of Everton obviously differs to mine, which I believe was the point of EJ’s article in the first place.
48 Posted 29/05/2008 at 08:52:29
You state that calling you a dope is cowardice, I say it was spot on the money but perhaps if I used a few expletives then my points would be considered more valid by you.
How the fuck don’t you get the premise behind a self fulfilling prophecy? (not nice but you may take note now)
Take your own advice and scroll up and read my post, I used the term "fans", I did not say "Dave Wilson will be part of his own self fulfilling prophecy". It’s not rocket science mate.
In regards to Bob and I being the same person, is that going to be your rationale behind the Kirkby vote, "there was in fact only one person voting for Kirkby but he voted thousands of times, i mean that must be the reason as the vote didn’t go as I wanted it to!"
As Bob stated, is he me? am I him? I am thick skinned and will never know or meet you so say what you want, it’s all fine by me and I will continue to disagree with your one dimensional view on Kirkby and you mine but I will not lose a seconds sleep over it but it looks like you may have.
49 Posted 29/05/2008 at 08:41:53
The irony for me and why I am irked so much at the current situation is the way the board latched onto the ’people’s club’ tag and marketed us ever since. Watching BK singing ’it’s a grand old team’ complete with ’if you know your history’ ( for the grammar fans I resisted using you’re in BK’s case) I get more than a tad uneasy because the attempt to re-brand Everton FC in knowsley I believe is the essence of this article.
I believe Everton in knowsley isn’t Everton. It wouldn’t have any history, it would be a new beginning and so ties to the past that we are all so proud of and defend on a daily basis would have to be broken.
The selling of the people’s club in marketing terms then becomes invalid. Which people? The new ones Wyness thinks we will pick up in the new rugby/manure/redshite catchment area? The daytripping sky watching nouveau supporters supplemented by a few kirkby supporting season ticket holders?
The essence, or soul if you will, of the club loses it’s reason to exist as the future breaks with the past, and to me, and it seems others, the ’original’ Everton FC ceases to exist.
I think BK was sold a pup by KW, if we have a ’majority’ we can survive, but BK didn’t understand that it may survive as a business but not as Everton FC.
50 Posted 29/05/2008 at 09:35:23
As I wrote recently the vast majority of our supporters come from the city, North Wales and Wirral. Because of the serious traffic problems trying to get to Kirkby it would be quicker to get to Villa Park!
On every thead people keep going on about the cost of staying and the cost of going. I've been going to Goodison for 55 years and every year we always seem to have a money problem. But at the end of the day we always plod on year-in, year-out.
Can't the apologists for Kirkby see through Billy? He is here for his own ends. He doesn't give a shite about our history or heritage, he just sees the £-signs. So wake up smell the coffee,and fight to keep our club where it belongs in the City of Liverpool.
51 Posted 29/05/2008 at 09:36:26
Unfortunately as per every other thread related to the stadium debate their are certain people who are very quick to denegrate the original debate into a slanging match.
One club, one city for LFC should be enough for every Evertonian to be against moving to Kirkby.
That is why a lot of people are against the move. The LFC marketing machine will go into overdrive if we go to Kirkby and that will be the death of us.
I do not not understand why it so hard to grasp that we need to find a minimum of 78 milion for Kirkby when it has been proved the money could be spent redeveloping Goodison.
We need to find the money anyway.
And we keep our history, memories etc.
Plus much more chance of attracting corporate money.
Why do people keep assuming a new stadium in Kirkby equals a more attractive investment ? Anyone out there with money to invest and understands football would want to stay at Goodison and promote its unique story or they could invest in a mid range stadium with no history or tradition in a 40,000 catchment area.
No brainer for me.
First team in Liverpool but forget that and let our rivals have the city - NO WAY.
52 Posted 29/05/2008 at 09:18:58
It’s a good question and it’s one I have personally thought about quite a lot.
My first thoughts I suppose were just rants born out of anger and frustration.
They would have been along the lines "Fuck em!! Shower of cunts!! Save your money, don’t give Luvvie another fuckin bean!"
After the initial mental rants, I started to REALLY think about it.
First of all, would it be ’disloyal’ not to go?
That was easy -100% no!
Because (see main piece) MY Everton simply wouldn’t exist, so how can I be disloyal to something that’s gone
(for me this entire issue has been a case of Everton FC being disloyal to Everton FC)
These ’second-stage thoughts’ were calmer and more in the area of.. "The game as you know it is dead anyway and the second the name Everton FC is stuck on the side of some two-bob kip in Kirkby, YOUR Everton will be dead too. When that happens, new fan will have won, you can’t win em all, you’re not far off 50, relax for fuucks sake" etc.
And this I might do.
There is something else to consider though.
I have lived away from Liverpool since 1980 and going to the match has brought me home every couple of weeks, for almost 30 years
Partly as a result of Everton, I still have the same bunch of mates (’the lads’) I’ve had since I was a kid.
So going home is something I would continue to do but it’s good to have a ’reason’.
With that in mind, if there was an AFC or Real Everton or whatever in Walton and I thought there was some merit to it/them, I would certainly consider supporting them.
This thing about ’supporting Everton wherever they go’ is TOTAL bollocks.
Fact: When Wimbledon moved to Milton Keynes, most of their supporters didn’t.
Why? Because it wasn’t Wimbledon anymore.
They set up a ’new’ club AFC Wimbledon, a club that (with the approval of all the ex-players) has Wimbledon FC’s FA Cup (replica) in the boardroom.
When the famous Brooklyn Dodgers were moved to the West Coast, did their fans say "You support the Dodgers wherever they play!"?
Of course not - they said "they’re dead" (’BUDDY!’)
And...they were right.
53 Posted 29/05/2008 at 11:21:27
Sadly that is the horrible truth and that sentence stuck out more than any other in this whole thread.
I have to disagree with your comparison of Wimbledon, as if we moved the same distance they did we would be playing somewhere beyond Manchester.
It is an easy thing to say we would follow them anywhere but it’s safe to say that they would not move that far away from Liverpool, the site of the proposed stadium is several hundred yards out of the city not 40+ miles
54 Posted 29/05/2008 at 11:40:51
The lead article by EJ suggests that he has only now ? at 48 ? discovered this basic tenet of relationships: that all Evertonians are NOT the same and that he vehemently disagrees with other supporters? vision of the club. I can go back to my teens, following Everton home and away, when at times I was embarrassed by some of my fellow Evertonians? behaviour ? verbal and physical violence, racial abuse, vandalism, bullying, intimidation and thieving. There is still evidence that such conduct still continues today, albeit (hopefully) on a lesser scale. Such supporters then did not represent me as a person, nor my vision of Everton Football Club, but unfortunately the club and other supporters were deemed guilty by association.
That said, those supporters were (are?) Evertonians. 35,000 of us may gather together at home games every couple of weeks. Does anyone honestly think that if you got to know each one of those 35,000 personally that you would genuinely LIKE everyone of them, simply by dint of the fact that they are Evertonians? I think that is a fantasy ? totally nonsensical. Having said THAT, even though the conduct, words and actions of some fellow blues have for me at times been cringe worthy over the years, they ARE Evertonians. No way do they represent what I feel a supporter should be. No way do they represent what Everton Football Club means to me. But? nobody ? NOBODY! ? has the right to label ANY blue as ?not being a true Evertonian? as some have consistently tried to do, not only in this thread, but generally on this forum and elsewhere, based on a personal perception of what it is to be an Evertonian.
Thankfully, life, nature, opinion, culture, philosophy - everything! - is not so boringly homogenized. Celebrate diversity, don’t suppress it.
55 Posted 29/05/2008 at 12:36:01
I take it from your posts that you favour the move, which is fine by me, your choice, but I believe that what you will be watching/supporting/donating to will not be my Everton FC, nor many others, it will be ?your FC Everton? of Knowsley and honestly, you are welcome to it and deserve it.
56 Posted 29/05/2008 at 12:22:40
Art talked about us all being different, we are, but what we have in common is that we are Everton fans and we love the club. I can understand that part of the love is where most of Everton has taken place (GP) and I love the place (I feel something special every time I go near or enter the place) so can understand that. But I hope we are all one.
As for making a new team, I would disagree. I can fully understand AC Wimbledon, as not only did they move far away, but they changed names, disgraceful!! We?re keeping our name and moving a few miles, so that is very different. I feel these FC United types are a bit bitter, but if that is what they want to do then I respect that choice, but it just would not be for me.
Often there is change in life, some people adapt well and cope with it easily, others find it tough for their own reasons (which are understandable). Here?s hoping that whatever happens we continue to support and love Our Everton
57 Posted 29/05/2008 at 13:05:38
I respect your views and feelings on this issue. I would prefer to stay at GP if it could be done up properly and generated enough income. If we move, as sad as it would be, I?d accept it and continue to go because I love our club (and I?m not saying you don?t because you clearly do, that?s just how I feel).
For me, we wouldn?t be a ?new club? as some people are making out (I feel that is magnifying the problem a little), we?d still be ?Everton FC? with our proud history, we?d just have moved home.
Fair enough, to you we wouldn?t be, but that doesn?t mean to me we?d be a new club, for me personally and for many others, wed still be Everton FC. In your opinion (how you feel) we?d be dead, not fact, but your opinion. In my opinion, we?d still be Everton and I think the large majority of Everton fans will feel this way. I know many who are against the move but will still go to the game and support and love Everton if we move. I just feel saying Everton are dead just because we?re moving ground is a bit extreme.
58 Posted 29/05/2008 at 15:09:28
I have poited out many times here and elsewhere that had the board just gone ahead and said we’re moving to kirkby, end of, there was little anyone could do. But they didn’t, they must have appreciated the divide it would create, yet they went ahead in what at the least I hope you’d accept are some dubious circumstances regarding what was on offer.
This in itself to me proves that what was once Everton is slowly eroding, we are no longer one big happy family.
59 Posted 29/05/2008 at 15:09:50
I could name blues who, based on their postings on this site, I find obnoxious, ridiculous, provocative, bigoted and self-delusional, to name but a few traits. I am quite sure I am regarded as the same by others. Each individual has the right to have an opinion on everything and everyone, but I draw the line at calling ANYBODY not a "true" Evertonian, as unpleasant as I may find some individuals.
Comparisons EJ makes to Wimbledon and American Sport teams relocating to a distant state are simply not applicable to EFC’s situation.
YOU consider that "the one unifying piece that unites us is Everton FC ...(and)... if the club ups sticks and goes ... to kirkby then that ?Everton? is no more".
Whilst I understand the emotion of the issue, I consider your opinion is reactionary nonsense. I strongly feel that Everton FC and its supporters are far, far more resilient than some wish to believe.
You say the move will be the death of EFC. Others argue it will guarantee the club’s future status and prosperity. Nobody - absolutely NOBODY - across that divide can say with 100% certainty that their position will be proved right.
One thing I am personally convinced of is... SOMETHING has to be done about the stadium issue and improved income streams if Everton FC and its supporters wish to fulfil their dreams and ambitious for the club. And right now, Kirkby and the Tesco partnership is the one concrete deal that could enable us to achieve that.
60 Posted 29/05/2008 at 15:15:20
why not delete T williams cowardly little name calling in the first place, thats where the thread started to turn sour
61 Posted 29/05/2008 at 14:46:33
"The lead article by EJ suggests that he has only now ? at 48 ? discovered this basic tenet of relationships: that all Evertonians are NOT the same"
Is that what it REALLY suggests?
Do you know what the word basically means?
The reason I ask is because THAT is what I said.
IE: "I?d have continued to believe we we?re basically all the same ? ?Evertonians?"
Basically - see?
It’s a word that allows the writer NOT to have to go into extreme detail on each and every point.
However just for you, as you obviously had difficulty understanding the point being made, I’ll spell it out.
Although I knew that all Evertonians were, as human beings, naturally different to one another (like bin-men or Marine biologists or Americans) AND that therefore there is a good chance there will be a difference between me, a poisonous, racist, Happy Als gobshite and a 12 year Bullens Rd Season-ticket holder, basically (there’s that word again!) we’re all Evertonians.
Tip: In your next post, why not try something more subtle like dancing about, whilst pointing at yourself and chanting "I’’m really clever. I’m really clever")
62 Posted 29/05/2008 at 15:47:09
Please don’t bother yourself with responding to Art. Your article is excellent because it conveys passion with clarity. Art attempts to assert his intellectual credentials by writing his elegant patronising prose that actually says very little. He is the Humphrey Appleby of Evertonians if he can find a meandering way of saying fuck all, he will!
63 Posted 29/05/2008 at 17:52:15
My view of you and your posts, EJ, is that it is YOU I find verbose and vain, taking eight paragraphs to deliver a one line punch line which, when the reader finally reaches it, makes the noise of a deflating balloon with an equivalent impact. If the medium of the Internet had a page to turn, I would be turning the page looking for the continuation and point of your post, but I frequently find myself asking: ?Is that it? What point is this guy trying to make?? My mental picture of you is sitting smugly back thinking how clever and witty you are when in truth, I personally have never read anything of genuine import or humour posted by you.
Just my opinion like?
64 Posted 29/05/2008 at 18:16:29
All that to say ’don’t like your stuff’.
65 Posted 29/05/2008 at 18:43:19
Please say something concise and original that?s all I ask of you.
66 Posted 29/05/2008 at 19:24:20
Ed... it would appear I already have (re: KEIOC Senseless thread).
Posted 09/05/2008 at 07:30:43
Art, well done
This is another elegant piece of prose with some salient points for Evertonians on both sides of the divide to consider.
67 Posted 29/05/2008 at 19:42:16
I like reading the posts of people who can use words as you clearly can so make some constructive comments. Please
68 Posted 29/05/2008 at 19:33:54
"Kirkby and the Tesco partnership is the one concrete deal that could enable us to achieve that."
Quite literally..... the only thing "concrete" is GP, it exists, it is real (go on, I’m waiting for the "wooden" pun). The only place containing our history/heritage is GP. The only place with proven infrastructure that does not need a twice discredited transport strategy is GP. The only place that represents continuity in terms of all this and our identity is GP.
By "deal" I assume you are talking about the "Deal of the century"......... The "deal" that has been engineered to be the ONLY one. It has avoided comparison at every turn!
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to Column articles, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.