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One of the last remaining lies is exposed...

By David Thompson :  03/06/2008 :  Comments (116) :
From the very first, the move to Kirkby has been painted as the opportunity for revenue streams to be increased, funding a future transfer kitty for David Moyes, apparently to the tune of £10M per year.

The 'deal of the century', 'effectively free' stadium, has now been shown to be a lie. Tesco have submitted figures in support of their planning application showing it will cost Everton £78M. 'Still a good deal' ? many of those who were initially taken in by the Wyness spin will say. 'Where else can we get a new stadium for that money?'

'The best transport links of any stadium in the North West' ? another piece of Wyness spin, now discredited. 'World Class'... 'state of the art'... Not any more.

Today, we can now see one of the last remaining claims exposed as yet another sham. Remember the concerts that would be contributing to that extra revenue? The official Everton website 'Stadium FAQ's" has the following:

"8. Will the stadium be used for events other than football matches?
Although its primary use will, of course, be first-team matches, there will be the capacity to stage major shows and concerts at the stadium."

The latest information posted on the Knowsely website contains the following information:

"No event shall take place at the Stadium with an attendance in excess of 50,401 people."

"There shall be no more than 6 non-EFC major association football events per annum (where a major event is a single day event attended by 7,500 visitors or more)."

"There shall be no more than 6 non-association football single day major sporting events in any 12 month period (where a major event is a single day event attended by 7,500 visitors or more)."

"The stadium shall not be used for any Events other than Sporting Events. No concerts or music events shall take place."

So no concerts, then. Another Wyness lie. Another revenue stream disappears.

Is there anyone out there who still believes a single word this man utters, and still believes in the ability of the Board and Executives of Everton Football Club to 'deliver' a stadium in Kirkby without crippling this club for years to come?

Reader Comments

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John Andrews
1   Posted 03/06/2008 at 23:36:19

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I have never believed a single word that Keith Wyness has said anyway. End of.
Jay Harris
2   Posted 03/06/2008 at 23:34:37

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David,
although I am one of Bully and Black Bill?s biggest critics I think this is more a case of incompetence than deliberate lies.

It does though place a major question mark over the "extra income" to pay the £10 million a year interest let alone an extra £10 million surplus for players.

Even with anticipated price increases and more numbers through the gates I cant see beyond an extra £5 million a year before interest and with the 2 numpties in charge the marketing and merchandising will continue to be a mess.
Derek Thomas
3   Posted 03/06/2008 at 23:35:42

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My 1st thought was....another lie exposed, well there’s a big surprise.

As to the Yeses....How many left now in Mr. Lincoln’s 2nd category.... about fooling people.

1) You can fool All of the people SOME of the time.

2) You can fool SOME of the people ALL of the time.

When will we come to the desired state of the last category??

3) But you can’t fool ALL of the people ALL of the time.

Over to you Kiethy baby
Steve Ryan
4   Posted 03/06/2008 at 23:35:47

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NEIL PEARCE you have gone very quiet lately mate. Twelve months on and I am still waiting for your response to the following question which I have asked you on many occassions: How will EFC benefit financially from moving to a small, isolated, economically deprived town as opposed to a vibrant city centre location with the assistance of enablers?
Colin Wordsworth
5   Posted 03/06/2008 at 23:33:59

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David

Why is this a Wyness lie?

On the original premises licence application the facility for concerts was probably applied for. So at the time when he made the comment he was probably referring to the original application tendered by EFC.

It looks like it is probable that this has had to be dropped in negotiation with the town planners, possibly the enviromental health and possibly the police.

It will probably have been negotiated away to ensure the application for the ground is granted as smoothly as possible.

If granted there is always the possibility to apply for a variation in the licence to allow concerts and increase the capacity of the ground.

I know KW has left much to be desired in his presentation, but this is ridiculious.
Steve Ashton
6   Posted 04/06/2008 at 00:05:48

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Colin

Admit it mate you me and the other yes voters were sold down the river.

I admire your loyalty but I can never get over the fact that the club’s silence - as one by one the advantages of Kirkby as originally sold by KW have been taken away - has been absolutely deafening.

I feel more sullied and let down by this deception than I ever did by any of the mismanagement in the 90s.

If the reality of the project as we know it now had been put on the table at the outset who in their right mind would have condoned it.

Not I for one.
Matt Willey
7   Posted 04/06/2008 at 00:16:11

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Regardless of whether or not it was a lie at the time Colin; the obvious conclusion is that this will have a knock on effect on the revenue streams available to the club... you must agree that this is not good news.

Whether or not a license for concerts would be granted in future is at best purely speculative ... is this really how you want the club to be run Colin?
Jim Lloyd
8   Posted 04/06/2008 at 00:05:47

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I’m not so sure that either Kenwright or Wyness lied. I just think they did a lot of "telling us what they wanted to believe."
They wanted to obtain a "Yes" vote, so they painted the picture accordingly. I read the comment from Colin and its full of probably’s and possibly’s, surely to God we have not left the future of Everton Football Club to be decided on possibly, probably, maybe, etcetera.
First of all it was going to be a virtually free stadium, it was going to provide UP TO £10million per season more for funding acquisitions (this, of course was dependant on us filling the stadium, if we get the same crowds as we currently get, there would be no extra revenue. So Colin, what is so ridiculous about the preposition that David puts forward?He uses the word LIES, hard to prove and I hope he’s wrong. You however, appear to defend the deal to move to Kirkby because, possibly or probably, Mr Kenwright and Mr Wyness have taken into account that they would get knocked back to use the place for concerts.
Dear God, it really does frighten me, that the team I’ve supported all my life (well since I was about ten!) is leaving this City on the premise that it will all work out in the end!
Neil Adderley
9   Posted 04/06/2008 at 00:24:39

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Colin W - you make an excellent point. Unfortunatley it somewhat undermines your defence of Keith Wyness

There is no doubt that the facility to hold concerts was applied for and has subsequently been ’conditioned’ away by KMBC. You are not seriously attempting to convince anyone that the highly paid CEO of Everton Football Club was oblivious to this possibility when he said;

"Although its primary use will, of course, be first-team matches, there will be the capacity to stage major shows and concerts at the stadium."

.....are you?

Defending the defenceless must become very trying.
Gavin Ramejkis
10   Posted 04/06/2008 at 00:44:20

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I’ve said it on other posts - basic project management; the business case fails and you pull the plug, the Kirkby stadium surely has no more viability -

Transport - atrocious
World Class Stadium promised - medium at best
Guarantee of an extra £10m for players - from where?
Income streams beyond a sole use premises - be a pretty high price event at 7500 people six times a year clearing £10m profit

This stinks to high heaven like an absolute calamity, it now has absolutely nothing whatsoever going for it.

Goodison Park despite her age offers more possibilities than this whole fiasco. Time for KW to cash his final pay cheque and leave but be a man and admit defeat.
John Hall
11   Posted 04/06/2008 at 00:34:04

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Here we go again. I am not a board basher as some would say but I think it is time for BK to come clean.He and the board have obviously misled or misquoted the benefits of moving to Kirkby in many ways. What they would like as a board and what we will get are now seemingly becomming very different. The silence coming out of the board room is deafening except when it suits them to add comment to keep the spin rolling.

I am sure that there are massive financial benefits to be gained by certain members of the board from making the move to Kirkby, hence the push on at all costs in order to get there.
The comments attributed to KW whom has stated that there is no plan B only add to the spin. Does he think all Evertonian?s have 'cunt' written across their foreheads? ? because that's how he perceives us.

I challenge the board to come out and rediscuss their original promised benefits of the proposed move as compared to what we are likely to get come the approval of the planning application for Kirkby. Have these people got the guts or balls to put the real deal on the table? I think not!
Hope you read this Bill K and offer me a response. I will offer £250 to a charity of your choice if you come clean and give us the truth.

Neil Quinn
12   Posted 04/06/2008 at 01:24:58

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Well it appears that the reduction in the amount of retail will have some repercussions on the amount of money (or enabling) that comes our way as well.

This extra £10m for Davey’s warchest is becoming as likely as Van Der Meyde getting a starting place.
James Byrne
13   Posted 04/06/2008 at 01:33:06

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Let's all thank and congratulate the YES voters who couldn?t see past their noses on this one!
Neil Howgate
14   Posted 04/06/2008 at 02:24:55

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Firstly aside to the actual ground move, knowsley have been granted something I believe to be in the region of £180million for school developments, this clearly shows signs of want for improvement in the area. Meaning it may not be such a bad place to move to after all.
Next I read a comment which states ? - be a pretty high price event at 7500 people six times a year clearing £10m profit? if you read the proposal again that is a minimum the event can in fact still accommodate the 50,401 6 times a year for football matches, 6 times a year for non football sporting events that?s still a dam site more than what we get a Goodson.
Finally yes some things may have been ?lies? but votes were needed and at the end of the day I firmly believe that Bill K would put the well being of Everton before personal gain.

And if not we could always ask George Gillette to put in an offer haha
Ed Fitzgerald
15   Posted 04/06/2008 at 06:52:35

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Neil

Please don’t quote the Knowsley schools issue as a reason for confidence. Unlike Everton Knowsleys schools lie a lamentable bottom of the national local authority league table. The adverts for 5 of their new learning centre leaders (can’t call them schools obviously) attracted eight applicants for five jobs. This was after a national advert campaign seems like no one wants to go there! The authority have done a good job of alienating many of the staff in the schools if you dont believe me please follow the links to the blogs below for some truly hilarious comment

http://mrread.blogspot.com/search/label/BSF

The blogger for this link is also a published author and teacher and just happens to be a Blue as well !

or try the site Resistance is futile http://knowsleylcs.blogspot.com/ for the views of a Knowsley Teacher
Gavin Ramejkis
16   Posted 04/06/2008 at 07:55:42

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Neil what the hell have schools got to do with Everton - great blogs Ed. If the marketing at Goodison, or rather no longer at Goodison, did their job then how do you know they could not accomodate 7500 people or more, what sort of conference has 7500 or more in attendance and if that outsourced dept can’t get non football events attractive in a city location how the hell will they make a difficult to get to backwater appear like a good venue??????? If you think you would get 50,401 people to six games a season at Kirkby, should they ever be able to get there, you are deluded. Maybe being such an attractive area you should move there Neil?
Bob Turner
17   Posted 04/06/2008 at 08:17:36

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Of course, any shortfall in revenue which might occur due to an absence of concerts could be made up if those many hundreds (thousands?) of people who refuse to go if we move to Kirkby actually do go.

Just a thought...
Alan Willo
18   Posted 04/06/2008 at 08:03:17

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Yet another crap anti Kirkby post! Maybe all the objections from the No and other councils around the borough have created a vacuum that will now harm EFC income. The reason why these changes are being made is because ?Project Kirkby? now faces the serious problem of either holding out for many years fighting the objections or reduce the size and user ability of the site to rush through the project. Sadly, they have chosen the latter option so all your constant criticisms of the site in the long run have weakend EFC and Tesco?s income so next time you look at EFC spending big just remember that the minority have spoilt it for the club.

The lack of ambition and foresight from the No?s, KEIOC and LCC is remarkable, all that energy and more importantly time wasted attacking the project instead of offering another option such as Walton Park with Tesco!! Have you all not thought why the vast majority of EFC fans have not followed the protest? It is because of the negative drivel and personnel attacks you all make at the Board ? it completely weakens your valid argument.

This is typical ?cut your nose off to spite your face? attitude that has obviously reduced EFC earning capacity, therefore weakend the club we all love. The vote was Yes, live with it and move on, I and the majority of fans have maybe you should too! COYB

John Nelson
19   Posted 04/06/2008 at 08:33:59

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Spot on Alan Willo.

I can?t believe the lengths some people are going to to try and undermine the Kirkby project. The material for their argument now is... we don?t want to move to Kirkby because we won?t hold concerts there??? For fuck?s sake!

Get a grip.

COYB.
Brian Baker
20   Posted 04/06/2008 at 08:28:36

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Any excuse to bash Buster and BK!

Buster only stated the facts known to him at the time, which is NOT telling lies.

The situation has changed as the consultation process gathered pace, which was bound to happen.

As long we get a modern football stadium to proud of, that we can play football in, is the main priority. Other uses for the stadium are of minor importance at this stage.
Chris Briddon
21   Posted 04/06/2008 at 08:49:06

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Ok, in all hoensty how many concerts would we have held anyway. How many (with the obvious exception last week) have been held at Anfield in the last 10 years?

Given the proximity to the Echo arena, Old Trafford and the City of Manchester Stadium (a very popular concert venue) we aren’t talking about a big market anyway.

The extra £10m comes from more executive boxes, better conference and banquetting facilities and the like which create far more consistent revenue than having a marquee in the car park on match days!

I have been to organised business events at Pride Park and at Bramall Lane. It is this market we want some of to increase revenues as much as the once every 5 years pop concert!

so big deal we won’t hold concerts

I really don’t understand the mentality of some supporters who would rather the project fail and leave Everton in a financial void causing us to fall behind the rest of the competition, than support the club in the project they’ve decided to progress with.

And the reason there is silence from the board on the move issue these days is they don’t need to argue with you anymore. They are just getting on with the job of trying to move rather than wasting time trying to placate a small portion of fans who they know will never be satisfied whatever answers they get
Darren Manning
22   Posted 04/06/2008 at 08:35:22

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I think I can sort of see the point Neil is trying to make, being that money is being invested in knowsley- fair enough.

But £180 million into Education doesn’t compare to the £1 Billion that has just been spent developing Liverpool One, a purely Leisure development, that shows the difference in investment between a suburban town and a vibrant city.
Shaun Brennan
23   Posted 04/06/2008 at 09:01:44

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David,

Maybe you could explian, I am a little cofused.

"No event shall take place at the Stadium with an attendance in excess of 50,401 people."

Does that mean the stadium is still 55k capcaity but not allowed to exceed? i.e. 4599 seets will remain empty for whatever reasons?

Thanks,

Shaun
Ciarán McGlone
24   Posted 04/06/2008 at 08:53:05

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Brian,

Let me explain to you what a ?fact? is...a ?fact? is something which is incontrovertible and indisputable.....what bully was doing at the time was certainly NOT promoting the facts. He was promoting supposition and misdirection IN THE ABSENCE OF FACT in order to put a spin on the vote.

Alan Willo,

Suggesting that genuine concerns about this move are damaging Everton is a pernicious tactic that could have come straight out of our beloved Mr Wyness?s ?big book of spin?. Shame on you.

And finnally, why is everyone refering to the stadium cost as £78million? The total cost to Everton is £130million....irrespective of how that money is going to be financed!

Lets call a spade a spade. Enabling development or no enabling development..Everton still have to hand over £130mill to the builders!
Rupert Sullivan
25   Posted 04/06/2008 at 08:39:10

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Alan Willo - are you seriously suggesting that the plan to move to Kirkby has become a the train wreck it now appears to be because of the people who either voted No or who have complianed/ campaigned for No since the event?

Are you off your rocker mate?

If a large corporation intends to follow a route such as this then it is incumbent on them to prepare for such things as Government interference, local objections, pressure groups etc. It is not as if these things were not known before the event... Do you imagnine that Tesco in their wisdom have not been in similar situations before? Do you honestly believe that it is acceptable for EFC not to take these possibilities into account? Do you drive a car without a spare tyre because all four tyres were ok when you set off!!

I can appreciate your frustration at the continuing debate ? especially given the tone of it on the ToffeeWeb site and the inference that you support the move ? but surely you cannot realistically believe that the whole thing is going tits up because of a few vociferous No voters!

Richard Parker
26   Posted 04/06/2008 at 08:50:32

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I was really in the middle on the Kirkby move. I didn’t want to leave Goodison, but realised that it was probably necessary.

All these so-called facts that keep getting thrown around, like the £78M, the lies, the loop site, the feasibility of redeveloping Goodison, I really do wonder about their accuracy.

One thing is sure, that I am leaning more towards staying put at GP with every passing week. Until the time where we can have our world-class stadium, which can host major events, with all the corporate hospitality facilities we need, etc, etc.

I’m not totally against the move, but it seems like the Kirkby stadium is going to fall way short of our expectations.

We are trying to rebuild a once great club, into something that will compete with the top-3 clubs in England. So as far as I am concerned, we need a top-3 stadium. Why be so short-sighted, we need to move, so move we shall and this is what’s on the table, so pants down, bend over and sign the next 100 years of EFC over to the project.

I think the whole Kirkby thing is cementing our place in amongst the also-rans. Maybe it is the best we can hope for, I can’t see us getting an Emirates stadium any time soon, but it’s bloody depressing if that’s the case.
Gavin Ramejkis
27   Posted 04/06/2008 at 09:08:11

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Alan and Brian as upset as you both appear to be, Alan more so, surely you can see the credibility of the Kirkby project falling to bits. Lies aside, even you both must be able to see the whole point of a new stadium would be suicidal not to look at using it beyond league and cup games, a large purpose built premises which could also host concerts, functions and conferences would be a legitimate undertaking should anyone with the slightest ounce of business acumen want to exhaust all opportunities to make the stadium earn money for what would be the majority of the year. The loss of that potential is another damning indictment of this project’s failure to deliver and loss of opportunity. Using the fact these valid arguments are being highlighted does not destroy the club to "spite our face" it shows our passion for a club which was there before BK and KW and which will be there long after they have gone, being a businessman doesn’t necessarily make you perfect for the job and admitting decisions for a business are wrong before they have long term detrimental effects to that business would leave you more of a legacy than burying your head in the sand and ignoring the growing flaws.
Chris Briddon
28   Posted 04/06/2008 at 09:34:45

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Gavin you said - even you both must be able to see the whole point of a new stadium would be suicidal not to look at using it beyond league and cup games, a large purpose built premises which could also host concerts, functions and conferences would be a legitimate undertaking should anyone with the slightest ounce of business acumen want to exhaust all opportunities to make the stadium earn money for what would be the majority of the year

But the whole point of this arguement is the inability ot hold concerts, there is nothing that says we can’t have functions and conference facilities, indeed I am sure we will, and as I have already mentioned this is where most of the money comes from.

This whole areguement here is about one tiny statement that says we won’t be allowed pop concerts - I mean how many would we hold anyway!
John Turner
29   Posted 04/06/2008 at 09:08:57

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Alan Willo

Since you’re so convinced that we should all move on, any chance you could shut us all up by making us all realise what’s so good about the move? Could you try to convince us of the benefits? The point is that one by one the ’benefits’ have gone, whether the board were lying or just making stupid mistakes.

So Willo, if you want to shut us all up, to get us to move on and get on with our lives, tell us what’s so good about this move, tell us how we’ll be better off.

Can you? Wyness and Kenwright could only convince a few thousand to vote yes on the back of information that we KNOW now to be untrue, so if you can do it I’ll be impressed. Might even ’get on with my life’.

Come on Alan, convince us...
Ciarán McGlone
30   Posted 04/06/2008 at 09:49:09

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A small point...

Which decent musicial act would choose to hold a concert in Kirkby in the first place...

I can just see it now...led zeppelin release their new tour dates...London, Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Kirkby...

Very likely!
Ed Fitzgerald
31   Posted 04/06/2008 at 09:46:16

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Alan

When KW prepared the marketing for Destination Kirkby he did use terms like world class stadium, litte cost to the club, state of the art transport, EFC in a vibrant city, etc etc. I did not believe him so I voted no.

The whole move to Kirkby was marketed from the point of view that move and we will get these benefits, dont move and we will go into terminal decline, goodison will fail its safety certificate, and we have no plans if it does not go ahead. Don’t believe that either!

Please convince me of what remains of the empty promises you were made by Keith in his TV interview on Everton TV?
As far as I am concerned my inherent mistrust of what he said has been proved.
Michael Tracey
32   Posted 04/06/2008 at 10:16:04

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Looks like Alan has left the building! It now seems to be at the stage where we need to find a way to get these lying clowns off the Everton board. I fear for the future of our club with these liars.
Gavin Ramejkis
33   Posted 04/06/2008 at 10:25:24

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Chris to respond, the whole point is to exhaust and have available ALL opportunities to hold concerts AND conferences, the latter we already have at Goodison so what exactly does the Kirkby stadium give us to increase revenue streams given it will incur significant additional debt to the club? The lies and spin from KW have turned my stomach, regularly working in Scotland I was warned by Scottish colleagues about him and all of those warnings are appearing more and more valid. As I said before we don’t own the club, the shareholders do but we will be have been here before and long after they have gone I won’t sit back and let what I perceive to be a growing disaster happen without continuing to voice my concerns, concerns I might add which are growing in numbers and volume from more than just myself.
Philip Bunting
34   Posted 04/06/2008 at 10:47:30

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Concerts, conferences....In all probability, how many concerts are really gonna materilise if we are granted license to do so? There are dozens of stadiums all around the Uk that are capable of holding concerts but how many do? ....WHY dont they?..... EXAMPLES include, Ibrox, Parkhead, Old Trafford, City of Manchester, St James, half a dozen in london...the list is endless...To really stand out and make a difference when holding concerts the pitch needs to be replaced/removed from stadium....I hope we dont get granted a license because the playing surface would end up a disaster, players end up injured etc etc ....were a bloody football team not a concert venue.
David Byrne
35   Posted 04/06/2008 at 11:12:29

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"can just see it now...led zeppelin release their new tour dates...London, Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Kirkby..." Why not?

No one would have thought of holding a concert in a field outside Birmingham then someone had the bright idea of building the NEC - which btw is further from the centre of Birmingham than Kirby is from central Liverpool.

Seems the no concerts line is required by the local authorities in order to grant planning permission, presumably they?re thinking of disruption to local businesses and residents.
Doesn?t mean it can?t be changed later.

Chirs Briddon
36   Posted 04/06/2008 at 11:31:44

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I can just see it now...led zeppelin release their new tour dates...London, Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Kirkby...

Why not, have you not heard of Milton Keynes Bowl or Whitley Bay ice rink - both of which are fairly popular concert venues.

One of the reasons Kirkby has a negative image is because its being cultivated by the No voters. I don’t live in Liverpool and have no opinion of Kirkby at all, but all I read is how horrible it is and why would we want to move there.
Most businesses etc are after the facilities provided, not the location its in. Anybody who has been to Pride park or Bramall Lane will tell you this, once your inside it could be anywhere. So stop dissing Kirkby as possible customers could start believing what you write!
Brian Baker
37   Posted 04/06/2008 at 11:31:58

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Gavin. At the time Buster was doing his ’spin’ on moving to Kirkby, he had no evidence to hand that would suggest that concerts could not be held at the new stadium. The council have since announced the rules and covernance imposed on the stadium.

The crowd limitations of about 50,000, would also impact on concerts, as seating on the pitch would push the attendance to over 50,000, so its not just a noise / light polution issue.
John Anderson
38   Posted 04/06/2008 at 11:17:05

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I?m a cab driver; last week I had a Man Utd fan in the car and as we drove past the Bullens Road I looked up and you know what I felt... embarrassment! The place really is a shithole ? we need to move on.
Jay Harris
39   Posted 04/06/2008 at 12:20:16

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The loop was rejected because it could not be developed into a 75000 seater stadium now the 55000 seater plus has had a capacity limit of 50401 put on it.

Newcastle with a slightly smaller footprint than GP holds 54000.

But there again developing GP does not hold out any large bonuses for the incompetent.
Sonny Phillips
40   Posted 04/06/2008 at 12:11:26

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??I really don?t understand the mentality of some supporters who would rather the project fail and leave Everton in a financial void??

Moving to Kirkby will leave us in even more debt than we are in now. The extra revenue cited by KW is a pipedream, the figures do not add up regarding corporate hospitality etc. HE will get a bit extra though through bonus payments if he oversees the move ?successfully?.
Then he will be off to pursue a new ?challenge? with an improved CV and a fat wallet.

He doesn?t give a shite about the future of Everton or the supporters.

Like Ed Fitzgerald I never believed a word uttered by KW, not from the start and certainly not now.

Steve Lyth
41   Posted 04/06/2008 at 12:52:14

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Madden, Marsbar, Willo, "Your boys took one hell of a beating", Bye Bye retail park bring on realism, Thank You LCC !!!!
Chris Briddon
42   Posted 04/06/2008 at 13:17:47

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Well, I hope you lot are all satisfied now. Lots of councils objecting and a call for a public enquiry mean the Kirkby scheme is looking unlikely to proceed.

so back to Goodison we go to sit around and wait for a mythical investor or some magical new stadium to appear out of thin air complete with funding provided.

Whilst LCC will forget about us again having completed their task of stopping us leaving Liverpool, the Loop and other sites will be forgotten as the non-existent red herrings they always where and all the no voters will be happy for a few years.

Until Goodison is no longer fit to use, no other sites have been found and we are playing Championship football due to lack of off field progress hampering any possibilibty of on-field success.

But hey at least we didn’t move to a new stadium 4-miles down the road being offered at a much reduced prive eh!
Peter Roberts
43   Posted 04/06/2008 at 13:21:45

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Maybe instead of firing in an objection LCC can get their fat backsides off their comfy office chairs and do something about Everton?s relocation that might actually be worth considering?

Chris Briddon - "Given the proximity to the Echo arena"

Er, I was under the impression the Echo Arena can only hold 10k maximum, imagine what could happen if we offered 40k seats for a venue! I?m sure the "backwater" problem would suddenly dissipate into the calm brown waters of the Irish Sea.
Philip Bunting
44   Posted 04/06/2008 at 13:33:09

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Chris...well wrote, you took the words right out of my mouth. I too want us to progress preferably at Walton Park and am not too bothered about the current design that has been put forward, though it could be better.... but that's what exactly will happen, our progress will begin to be stiffled by wealthier Chairman paying higher prices for better players etc etc... We WILL be left at Goodison because LCC don't give a toss. EFC dont have the money to refurbish Goodison therefore we languish, simple as that. Hope the No men are happy playing Burnley and Preston because the Board can say they tried..... Where from here!
Paul Lally
45   Posted 04/06/2008 at 13:31:21

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Who cares about concerts.
Is not the main issue that we are handing over the city to LFC despite us being the first team in the city ?

Forget lost revenue from concerts - the lost revenue from moving out of the city far out-weighs any monies concerts would bring in.

One Club, One City - No chance.
If that means keeping Goodison going until we redevelop or move then so be it.

Why the rush ?

You have to wonder what our founders would have to say if they knew what was going on.
They must have had more fighting spirit than the board we have today.
EFC / LFC is unique so cannot be compared to Sunderland, Bolton etc.

EVERTON FC IS LIVERPOOL - FIRST AND ALWAYS.

A lot of people seem to forgetting this important point
Tommy Tank
46   Posted 04/06/2008 at 13:25:23

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Alternatively, Chris Briddon, if Kirkby does go ahead and is the spectacular failure we all know it will be, as EFC are riddled with debt and playing to crowds of 28,000 in a ground with the asthetics of the Reebok stadium, and after we have waited 2 hours in the rain to jump on a bus to take us back to a park and ride site that will take us another hour to get out of, I hope idiots like you have got the guts to stand up and say "I was one of the people who voted for this", but soemthing tells me we won?t be hearing a peep...
Chris Briddon
47   Posted 04/06/2008 at 13:48:18

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But there’s the difference Tommy you see.

Its a gamble, it always will be, do yo ustick with something you know, in full knowledge that a few years down the line it will cause you major problems, or do you take a risk move to something new and have an optimistic outlook.
nobody really wants to leave Goodison, but we have to or we WILL fall behind the competition of that there is very little doubt.
Nobody said Kirkby was perfect, but with our current finances avaiable it is the best we could afford or expect. The 70,000 state of the art gorund wouldn’t just build itself you know.

I am a realist, and I realise that the future for EFC is away from Goodison.

For those who like talking about our history, do you remember the group of Evertonians who were fed up that their landlord kept increasing the rent, so made the brave decision to walk away and find somewhere new to play. They ended up at Goodison Park and look what they left behind - now which decision would you have made?
Chris Briddon
48   Posted 04/06/2008 at 13:54:15

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Paul, if you really think that Everton will get looked after better in Liverpool by LCC then think again. They are already only interested in one football club. They only started paying attention to us when it looked like we might move out.

Everything in the city is Liverpool centred, nothing will ever change that, and to be honest if we move out of the city (allbeit only 4 miles) it will make no difference at all.
Steve Lyth
49   Posted 04/06/2008 at 14:09:03

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Given that Wyness has stated that Goodison Park is not commercially viable, does anyone think he will do the honourable thing when desperation Kirkby dies? After all it would hardly be fair taking a £400,000 salary from an ailing club.
Neil Pearse
50   Posted 04/06/2008 at 14:04:32

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Steve Ryan - bit aggressive mate, but I actually did post yesterday in rsponse to Gavin. A bit quiet recently because (a) I?ve been busy, and (b) I think the arguments are all now pretty well known on both sides.

For what?s it worth, I still think that (a) Kirkby is the least expensive new stadium that we are ever likely to get (partly, of course, because we are unfortunately not building The Emirates); (b) that we could not without great financial risk afford to build the much more expensive stadium in the city that many of you seem to want; and (c) as long as Kirkby gets at least the same crowds as GP (which I believe it will do if the team is successful), then of course it will generate higher revenues because it will charge higher ticket prices and have much more remunerative corporate, catering and hospitality facilities. So nothing much has changed.

My favoured option would actually be a ground share on Stanley Park.
Chris Briddon
51   Posted 04/06/2008 at 14:29:12

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I actually think that a ground share option is becoming more and more likely.
If Kirkby does get called in, then that will probably be an end of that idea, and given our lack of other options a ground share on Stanley Park is the best fit solution.
Steve Dooley
52   Posted 04/06/2008 at 14:40:52

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Neil Pearse, I agree with you, other options on the face of it will cost far more that Kirkby. Kirkby is not ideal in my opinion, but it does seem to be the best of the options facing the club in terms of lowest captal investment without harming current revenue, and the probability of increasing revenue in the future from all sorts of new income streams.

I do wish that people would refrain from individual personal abuse and focus on the real issues facing the club.

I wonder if anyone has tried to prepare an investment appraisal of Kirkby, vs other options taking into account current revenue treams, predicted revenue streams and the likely payback period a new or redeveloped stadium?
Colin Grierson
53   Posted 04/06/2008 at 12:49:36

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Spot on Sonny mate.

KW is NOT a blue. He is a mercenary out for himself and will sell himself to the highest bidder. He spins for a living and spouts half truths about possibilities and improbabilities.
Yes voters! There is no harm in being naive but to STILL stand firm on Kirkby being a good move is plain foolish. The original post here is IMO about KW?s spin before the facts emerged. It was not a lie but a positive spin on an improbability. That?s what he does, has done, and will always do.
KW poses more of a threat to us than Johnson ever did.
David Thompson
54   Posted 04/06/2008 at 15:42:23

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Steve,

You wonder "if anyone has tried to prepare an investment appraisal of Kirkby, vs other options taking into account current revenue treams, predicted revenue streams and the likely payback period a new or redeveloped stadium?"

You would like to think that it’s something Everton have done. There was apparently an assessment done by PWC on behalf of Everton last year, which compared the potential revenue streams for Kirkby with an unspecified City Centre stadium. The report has never been made public, although it seems that the City Centre potentially generated a much greater income.

It appears that no study has even been undertaken to ascertain demand for the stadium. Instead, generic data for ’new builds’ has been used, despite the circumstances of this one being somewhat different.

As a general response to some of the comments above, I called it lies - you may think it to be either a genuine mistake or a change of cicumstances. If it was a one-off, I might agree with you, but so much of the original information has now changed - as many No voters predicted - that if it’s not lies, it’s incompetence.

I wrote to the Club, and asked them, given the many differences between what is still on the official site and what has been submitted to Knowsley, whether the site should now be updated to reflect what we know to be true. Their answer was that it will be updated after the Planning process.

In other words, we’ll keep the truth from you as long as we can.

Some of you might want to continue deluding yourselves that there is nothing wrong with the Kirkby proposal, and that’s up to you. Others may permit themselves a wry smile.

David Byrne
55   Posted 04/06/2008 at 17:23:51

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"EVERTON FC IS LIVERPOOL - FIRST AND ALWAYS.

A lot of people seem to forgetting this important point"

You seem to have forgotten that when Everton started playing at Anfield, Anfield was outside what was then the city boundaries. And when the club moved to Goodison park, it too was outside the city boundaries.
Boundaries move, Kirkby wasn’t always in Knowsely. Maybe after the next round of local government reorganisation it’ll be in Liverpool. Who knows.
Bilbo Baggins
56   Posted 04/06/2008 at 17:34:57

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You missed two whoppers : I too am an Evertonian and we will have a spade in the ground in May !!!!!!!
There has to be more ?????????
Alan Kirwin
57   Posted 04/06/2008 at 17:57:46

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And on we go... How many more times do we have to read the same arse-clenchingly boring drivel from anti-Kirkby people. Same old insults, same old complaints, no alternatives mind you, just same old same old. Rubbish.

Can you recalcitrants not understand that deep down NO EVERTONIAN WANTS to leave Liverpool. We’d all like a brand new stadium on the river, or at the loop, or turnign Goodison Park into the San Siro. And I would also like a new Ferrari every day for the next month and a blow job from Scarlett Johanssen every day for the next year.

But guess what you people who still don’t get it, it’s fantasy. Someone somewhere has to pay for this. Everyone agrees (everyone with a basic understanding of maths, that is) that we need a bigger & better stadium to underpin the club’s continued growth and competitiveness. We need it YESTERDAY. So what do we do?

The club’s positive presentation of Kirkby is normal. It’s also far less of a crime in my mind than the crap that’s thrown at BK & KW. Geniuses they may not be, but they had to do something. Kirkby was not ideal (and I’m not sure it will actually happen), but they had to find the best, quickest and most deliverable solution to keep us competitive.

Goodison holds beautiful memories, but it’s crap and it’s a laughing stock amongst fans of other clubs.

I broadly supported the club for all the reasons that have been stated 23,575 times on various forums. But, AND HERE"S THE RUB, to my miind the only sensible, viable, appropriate, beautiful and environmentally acceptible solution is a joiint stadium. It would be the 2nd best stadium in Britain after Wembley, could take maybe 75,000 in unrestricted comfort, and would be a fitting monument to one of the world’s sporting and cultural capitals.

Or we can have two stadiums a few miles apart, neither of which will really cut the mustard and both of which cost the clubs a fortune, whilst the bigotry and mutual hatred espoused in some quarters can be preserved. It won’t always be the charmless waiter in charge over there.

And if you still can’t see it happening, then let me leave you with one memory: it’s the sight and sound of Rhys Jones’ mum & dad in blue shirts whilst Z-Cars blasted out of the speakers at Anfield. If that didn’t move you and persuade you of what’s possible, you are indeed sad.
Rich Jones
58   Posted 04/06/2008 at 10:31:22

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im affraid just as every country get the leader or pimeminister they deserve, we have the same in Bill Kenwright, please dont let Wyness side track this fact, hes employed by Kewright to deliver the bad news etc but at the end of the day we have let this happen and it will happen there is too much money involved, I just hope one day we’ll all know what the real motive behind this whole joke of project was. It sure wasnt for the good of Everton I hope all the yes voters are happy ile remeber all of you on here (Gerrard Madden) etc and me and all the no voters should be ashamed of ourselves for not kicking up a fuss, we could of stopped it but we havn’t.
Neil Adderley
59   Posted 04/06/2008 at 20:25:56

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Sefton Council object to Destination Kirkby

Wednesday, 04 June 2008

Tonight, as anticipated Sefton Council’s planning committee continued to object to the current Tesco?s stores ltd application for Kirkby citing identical planning policy departures as Liverpool City Council earlier today; mainly PPS6 and the adopted and emerging regional spatial strategy (RSS). Sefton Council’s view is that such a scale of development remains disproportionate to Kirkby’s existing role and status. It was a unamininous decision.

Sefton Council are clearly concerned by the actions of Knowsley Metropolitan Borough Council. Despite repeated requests, KMBC have failed to provide Sefton Council’s planning committee with a copy of their report from retail consultants Roger, Tym & Partners.

They also dismissed the mezzanine reductions, the council’s consultants also cited the negative impacts that Destination Kirkby would have on Southport and Bootle. It was stated that proposed development has a similar retail size to the whole of Southport and twice the size of Bootle.

Sefton Council resolved to object to the application. They have also said that if Knowsley Council approve the scheme they will ask the Government Office of the North West (GONW) to call the application in.

http://www.keioc.net/index.php?page=latest-news
Jay Harris
60   Posted 04/06/2008 at 20:16:00

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Alan Kirwin
How is GP the laughing stock amongst other supporters.

It is one of the largest stadiums in the prem already and contrary to popular opinion is not about to fall down or be closed down.

Now if BK in the 20 years he has been on the board had taken steps to keep the place up to current standards we wouldnt have all this bullshit about we can only afford a cowshed in Kirkby.

Far more capable people than you and I have repeatedly posted on here that GP can be redeveloped to a far better stadium than Kirkby for comparable amounts and the cost of building a stadium is roughly the same wherever you build its only the land value that fluctuates and according to Everton’s own expert it will cost millions to decontaminate the land at Kirkby.

I dont personally have too much of a problem with the costings at Kirkby.My main concern is threefold.

Firstly the transport and infrastructure in Kirkby was built around a population of 40000 Liverpool by comparison has been built up to handle over a million.

Secondly I have a major problem with the quality of the stadium and feel that more spent in creating a "Special" stadium would be money better spent.

Thirdly and partly for the first two reasons I cannot see us getting anything like the return on investment at Kirkby that we would get in Liverpool even if we spent more.

Now a lot of you pro Kirkby guys are going on about alternatives.

Here’s 5 for you:

1.The Loop

2.Redevelop GP

3.Walton Hall Park

4.Share with RS

5.Stay at GP until we get into CL and/or other options come along.
Steve Dooley
61   Posted 04/06/2008 at 22:19:33

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Jay Harris. GP is a dump, a once great stadium that is now well past its sell by date. I have been laughed at by other fans for its condition, for the problems with restricted views, for the lack of facilities. Something needs to be done and soon. What ever option that may be.

Staying at GP in its current state is accepting mediocrity for the forseeable future.

As for your assertion that GP can be re developed for the same cost, that is simply not true. I am a construction professional and I can tell you it is not the case because of the constraints associated with construction new stands over the 5 or 6 years it would take to do. The costs would be huge. For construction to be cost effective, it needs to be quick!!
Colin Wordsworth
62   Posted 04/06/2008 at 22:36:58

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Jay

Let us say the game is up and Tesco pull out, fantastic you will say!....well done LCC!

BUT IS IT?....your alternatives.......

1. red herring perpetrated to deflect away from Kirkby; crap!

2. see above and many other replies.....expensive and will LCC allow it?....planning?

3. Interesting, but will LCC allow 2 parks to be used.?........expensive!

4. almost as acrimonius as Kirkby to supporters, loss of identity, rs don’t want us, expensive.

5. we wither, eventually championship!

I am amazed that no other sites brownfield or otherwise have been identified as possibilities....maybe this was the reason we went to Kirkby!

One other point, why do you think that LCC are objecting?......is it because they want to keep Everton or protect their own interests?

difficult one iI know, but have they just built a new shopping mall ?.....

If the Kirkby project was so poor why are they objecting........they fear the competition, as do the other councils, can’t be that bad then, can it!

strange how our esteemed Evertonian of a councellor is sucking up to KEIOC, he can’t have alterior motives can he?...

nah, he’s only a politician.....who’s using who?

Karl Masters
63   Posted 04/06/2008 at 22:54:01

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It’s not good to see all the bitching on here.

That for me has been the worst aspect of Kirkby ( even worse than the crap design and second rate location ) the split in the fanbase.

Finally, If you believe Wyness has lied that’s depressing. If you believe he has been mistaken on his promises, although personally, I’d say that was being kind, that is also depressing.

Lies or Incompetence? Hobson’s choice!!
Rich Jones
64   Posted 04/06/2008 at 23:14:13

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steve dooley I need some flags laying in my garden, how much mate (construction expert indeed)
David OKeefe
65   Posted 04/06/2008 at 23:11:10

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Colin

It is up to the club to come up with a plan B, not Keioc, LCC or the no voters.

Once again you sneer at LCC justifiable objections to a regeneration plan that breaches everything, from planning laws, the UDP and the retail heirarchy for the region. Even the people of Kirkby don’t want it, but these are the inconvenient truths that you don’t want to hear.

Kirkby was a crap idea and the club needs new owners to take the club forward. This is the only solution, BK and KW have alienated far too many people at LCC whose support is needed to resolve the stadium issue
Christine Foster
66   Posted 04/06/2008 at 23:01:09

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A wry smile? no, not yet, because I believe that failing the government calling in the application messers Kenwright & Wyness still fully intend to make Kirkby the new home for Everton Football club despite the fact that the case for has been torn down piece by peice by fans, councils, independent reports, Tesco but most importantly by the spin and the deceptions from the club itself.

It gives me absolutely no comfort either to see that many of the yes voters are now turning their expectation of going to Kirkby to one of blame of the insignificant minority of voters who would not get on board. The truth is Kirkby never stacked up, the spin never stacked up and the reality is starting to unravel the ball of string.

What happens if Kirkby is called on or rejected? Everton FC will have to find another site. Just because Kirkby was a cheap opton for a stadium does not make it the right choice or the only choice. Perhaps if it does get rejected we will see alternatives being seriously considered, perhaps we will see serious investors being offered a stake in the club.

I have stated in previous articles that I believe many of the actions of Wyness and the board have been patronizing in its silence to the fans. THEY have allowed the debate to fester and split the fanbase. THEY may well have believed their own hype but their comments and actions have shown in my opinion a level of incompetance that does not befit EFC.

At the moment, the jury on Kirkby is still out. The chances of it happening are I believe still 50 /50 perhaps Monday will tip the balance one way or the other.
Colin Wordsworth
67   Posted 04/06/2008 at 23:48:20

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David

Not a sneer, don’t do sneering!

However, Kirkby isn’t a crap idea, as they say the price is right, it is just the location that is the main issue.

But you have to be aware that there are other interests here!, why object....because it looks like it will threaten LCC!, that’s why!, no more no less, it has nothing to do with us being there!

LCC don’t want us, but object because of the shops!....just great!

You must remember that a majority of fans eligable voted yes. Where was LCC then?

Yes, the club must identify a site, then they must find a partner and then LCC have to agree, it is not as simplistic as you say!

Everton had searched for many months to find a suitable site with LCC, nothing suitable to the club was offered. Hense Kirkby.

So I don’t sneer, but I have attempted to put another slant on the debate. As I see it, if it happens, so be it....but if it don’t we ned plan B quick! There will be no gloating either way.
Paul Johnson
68   Posted 05/06/2008 at 00:21:23

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Tommy Tank, well done sir, you nailed it right there.

If KW’s bonus was dependent on delivering a re-developed GP make no mistake that’s what we’d get.

Let us not forget that the figure quoted as being available to DM as a result of the move to Kirkby is UP TO £10m. Not £10m. Not even 50p is guaranteed.

Even if it was a guaranteed £10m I don’t see how that will allow us to compete with the Sky4. It’s simply not enough.

I personally don’t believe a word KW utters and for that reason alone I could never vote for Tesco Town.
Tommy Gibbons
69   Posted 05/06/2008 at 02:10:26

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Can anyone tell me where the money is coming from to redevelop Goodison?
I seem to have missed the fact that we have a billionaire benefactor who will bankroll the club whilst we rebuild!!
Kirkby is still the ONLY deliverable option unless of course someone knows differently?
Jay Harris
70   Posted 05/06/2008 at 03:45:02

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Steve I’ve no idea of your qualifications but we’ve had Tom Hughes(An experienced construction engineer)Trevor Skempton (an experienced STADIUM architect who was involved in the reconstruction of St James Park amongst others)and a few others who have all stated that GP can be redeveloped at a similar cost to Kirkby in a planned way.
We’ve also had HOK who were responsible for Wembley and many other major stadium developments throughout the world stating that the loop was viable.
Now if you choose to believe Wyness and his crowd of "NO EXPERIENCE" of stadium development team then that is your prerogative.
I have one opinion some people have a different one that’s what makes the world go round.
Sometimes I’ll be right and sometimes I’ll be wrong but to me KIrkby is ALL wrong.
Jay Harris
71   Posted 05/06/2008 at 03:55:48

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Colin
can you please explain to me why not moving to Kirkby will cause EFC to wither away and end up in the championship.

To my mind the only thing that will cause that is the continued incompetence of this board to market the club properly and to get proper investment in by releasing some of their shareholding and stranglehold on the club.

Kirkby was always a halfbaked idea to a large number of Evertonians and I for one will be relieved if it falls through.

I would ask you to ask yourself and the other pro board fans if Moyes wasnt doing so well on the pitch what you would all think of the board then.

I would also state that GP is not about to fall down or be closed down.It hasnt had many full gates even when we’re successful so the opportunity for more income is in the marketing of the club.

Why do Spurs with a capacity of only 36000 get double YES DOUBLE the income of EFC - because they are a well run club financially EFC ARE NOT.
Gavin Ramejkis
72   Posted 05/06/2008 at 07:32:47

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Tommy Gibbons the £78m or maybe more that the club would need for Kirby (as a minimum) would be loaned from banks, whether it is for Kirkby or Goodison Park it would need to be borrowed as NO ONE WAS GIVING EVERTON THE MONEY. If the will isn’t there it’s pointless saying there is a way, some very experienced people have said there is a way, even saying so at the AGM before being asked directly by BK to talk about it off the minuted meeting so as to stop the conversation being documented further.
Alan Willo
73   Posted 05/06/2008 at 07:54:52

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My God the debate has certainly lifted since yesterday. Some funny posts especially from the No but again just attacks on EFC board. Jay your 5 options are very funny too, I would imagine you?re a member of that silly group KEIOC whose major sponsor is LCC? Well maybe you could send them your 5 options because it?s them that are stopping any of them materializing. Let?s all get back to real world please, EFC have no money to do a build on their own. This whole debate is purely about location, has been from the start that?s why I and other get pissed when all you do is knock the project, finance partner etc?.. John has asked me to give reason why we should move, well mine as follows:-

1) it?s the choice of the majority of EVERTON fans
2) It?s the choice of the custodians
3) We have a committed commercial sponsor
4) We have a committed council willing to invest in it
5) It will increase EFC revenue stream
6) It will increase the value of the Company and allow further investment
7) It will provide better facilities for the paying customers

We cant redevelop GP without a commercial sponsor willing to invest and planning could take years, then the build could also take years too so basically a minimum 5/6 year project with reduced revenues so in the current position cant be done. All these objections do is damage EFC earning capacity and will make the Kirkby Project smaller. Anyway, I have a business to run so look forward to the attacks. COYB

Gavin Ramejkis
74   Posted 05/06/2008 at 08:24:02

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Colin W I don’t think any of the councils objecting to the planning permission could validly challenge the football stadia as that in itself doesn’t breach the various regulations that have been breached and could be read as you say "sour grapes" and vote winning.
Ciarán McGlone
75   Posted 05/06/2008 at 09:14:27

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1) it?s the choice of the majority of EVERTON fans

[b]What is CURRENTLY on the table is NOT the choice of the majority of fans.[/b]

2) It?s the choice of the custodians

[b]Custodians who will likely see a return on their original investment of about 1000% if we move to Kirkby...when proper investment actually comes knocking...surprising that it’s their choice, isn’t it?[/b]

3) We have a committed commercial sponsor

[b]We have no sponsor...we have a corporate leech out for it’s own satisfaction. What part of Tony Flethchers Email did you not understand?[/b]

4) We have a committed council willing to invest in it

[b]Hardly a compelling argument for this move is it? A council that will bend its planning regulations as an investment - pity they’re not willing to invest any actual cash![/b]

5) It will increase EFC revenue stream

[b]Neither Wyness or anybody else has been able to substantiate the claim that these extra revenue streams will actually happen, nevermind substantiating the claim that they will have any input other than servicing the debt!...Perhaps you’d like to attempt to now and amaze us all![/b]

6) It will increase the value of the Company and allow further investment

[b]How exactly do you work that out? While it will increase the company it will also increase the debt...any investor will inherit this debt and a team that has no stadium asset!

Care to explain this grandiose claim as well?[/b]

7) It will provide better facilities for the paying customers

[b]The only fact in these whole 7 reasons![/b]

All in all, a pretty piss poor argument.

Perhaps you could answer me one further question...if this move is so fantastically good for Everton..then why did our custodians feel the need to hide the actual facts and instead tell us a bunch of lies - alledgedly?
Gavin Ramejkis
76   Posted 05/06/2008 at 09:28:44

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Alan Willo let’s just be clear on your seven points as you seem to love to denegrate others

1. the majority of fans eligible to vote THAT BOTHERED to vote - NOT the majority of Everton fans as it would be easy to surmise the majority of Everton fans didn’t get a vote

2. agreed

3. agreed

4. agreed, investment wrong choice of wording as they are making no financial investment

5. WRONG WRONG WRONG - supposition, where is the proof, all figures are pure speculation as they have not happened, income against operating costs and repayment of loans etc

6. again supposition, the value of the company wont increase as it’s debt will increase substantially, think what you might have said is potential attractiveness to investors and that would only be IF the shareholders would be willing to dilute or sell their shareholding

7. potentially but the whole picture needs to be looked at and again this is supposition, the whole match day experience includes getting to and from the ground which has been documented to be substantially worse than it currently is due to major transport and parking problems at the proposed site

Don’t rant about facts you don’t agree with then state some of your own which can easily be highlighted as wide of the mark.
Chris Connell
77   Posted 05/06/2008 at 10:18:07

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There is still so long way to go on this process that I have no doubt that the whole Kirkby Stadium circus will fall flat on its face, at a lot of great expense to Everton. I still remember the Kings Dock fiasco! We will be at Goodison for a long time to come (which I'm thankful for).
Chris Briddon
78   Posted 05/06/2008 at 10:32:00

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For information, a proportion of the £78m for Kirkby was coming from the sale of Goodison.

If you want to re-develop Goodison then no sale so no income as a result. Hence less finance.

I am not going to bother arguing the rights and wrongs of the Kirkby move as too many people have too ingrained opinions on the subject. (One poster has even gone back to querying the validity of the vote again)
You are either in favour or not & nothing I can say will change your mind, so stop going over old ground and slagging Bill & Keith off at every available opportunity.
Tony Williams
79   Posted 05/06/2008 at 11:23:15

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Gavin, you emphatically state "5. WRONG WRONG WRONG - supposition, where is the proof, all figures are pure speculation as they have not happened, income against operating costs and repayment of loans etc"

If it is suppostition and there are no deffinite figures yet how can you for certain say Alan is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG?

Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out that if you are stating points are wrong and have nothing concrete to back up that statement, you would be better saying you disagree, not stating that they are wrong. Semantics I know but I am a bit of a pendant like that.

(No doubt I will get something about my post pointed out to me by another pendant with a sharper eye than I)
Graham Atherton
80   Posted 05/06/2008 at 10:38:14

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How are Spurs able to raise twice the revenue compared with Everton??


Compare these prices
http://www.topspurs.com/jmdview.htm

with these

http://www.evertonfc.com/seasontickets/prices/index.php



£1000 for a season ticket? Be careful what you wish for.
Tony Williams
81   Posted 05/06/2008 at 11:36:41

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With regards to teh Spurs revenue issue, two words - "London Prices"
Ciarán McGlone
82   Posted 05/06/2008 at 11:54:37

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"If it is suppostition and there are no deffinite figures yet how can you for certain say Alan is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG?"


Are you serious Tony?

It is wrong by the very fact that it is supposition!

And using that supposition to try and invalidate the correct assertion that conjecture is not fact...is playschool logic!
Graham Atherton
83   Posted 05/06/2008 at 11:38:57

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’London Prices’ are paid by people who earn roughly 20-30% more than the rest of the country on average. They are not a license to print money.

They also pay much higher costs such as mortgage and transport - the overall effect being minimal difference in excess cash available.

The real difference is more likely to be that they have more people prepared to pay more to watch football = richer fans.

It would be interesting to compare the demographics of the season ticket holders.

Nonetheless it is difficult to lay this shortcoming at the feet of the EFC board.

We don’t have as many affluent fans therefore lower turnover - or do you believe a 50% season ticket prices hike would bring about a 50% income increase? Perhaps merchandise doesn’t do so well because there isn’t the spare cash to buy it after purchasing a season ticket?

How can we get more affluent supporters - we need a better product, better team, better stadium. All of those cost money and lots of it so where do we go now?? What would you do? Even if the team makes the champions league we haven’t got the facilities to take advantage.

Be careful what you wish for.
Jay Harris
84   Posted 05/06/2008 at 11:55:09

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Graham Atherton and others:

Spurs non matchday income is 72 million (39 million commercial and 33 million broadcasting) on last reports proving the point that gate receipts while important are NOT the golden opportunity some people seem to think.

Alan Willo
FYI I am not a member of KEIOC but do applaud the time and effort they have put in at their own expense.
I do not approve some of their tactics at the outset but find the boards tactics deplorable.
I have followed Everton since 1959 and so did my father and grandfather before me so feel entitled to judge this board as I see it.
I am not asking you to put your obviously rose tinted specs away merely expressing my views as I see them.

The constant stream of lies out of GP makes me sick and the sooner we see the back of this crowd the better.
David OKeefe
85   Posted 05/06/2008 at 12:29:13

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Colin

I think you will find out that LCC offered the Kings Dock to the club, that fell through due to BK procastinations over a sum of 30 million!

Cut nose to spite face is how i describe this attitude, LCC hate us lets move to Kirkby? This is childish.

I also owe you an apology as you have replaced sneering with hyperbole. Its an improvement if nothing else.
Tony Williams
86   Posted 05/06/2008 at 12:19:28

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Ciaran I can see what you are getting at but Alan states that the new ground would generate more revenue.

Yes it is suposition but I am more likely to agree that a new stadium with far better corporate facilities and more seats (which will cost more) would bring in more money that 4000 restricted view seats and a tent in the car park, supposition yes but incontrvertably "WRONG"...I don’t think so.

Graham, yes London prices are extraordinarly high but a pound in the till is still a pound in the till towards the income.
Colin Wordsworth
87   Posted 05/06/2008 at 12:42:20

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Jay

Tottenham...far better corporate facilities. And even they are thinking of moving grounds, as well as Chelski who were at one stage looking outside London!..the corporate money stream is what it is all about...we need it!...

Dave, hyperbole....or whatever....nothing to do with being childish it is what I feel is best for the club. Fullstop.

I have already stated on previus e-mails that I blame the club re the Kings Dock, a mighty mistake!

But.......what are LCC doing for us now?

helping the club....I don’t think so!....do you?

acting in own self interest.....YES!

If it all falls through let’s see how hard your beloved Council look after us!

And Jay I feel if we sit on our collective hands and put our heads in the sand and keep the status quo as it is, yes, I feel we will end up like an Ipswich Town type Club!......nice fans, nice club ...but....so what!
David OKeefe
88   Posted 05/06/2008 at 13:01:25

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Colin

BK let down LCC over the Kings Dock would you do a deal with someone who let you down?Or in this case lead you up the primrose path for two years?

LCC have every right to oppose Destination Kirkby, it breaks just about everything, UDP, Planning laws and the retail heirarchy.



ALan Willo
89   Posted 05/06/2008 at 12:30:37

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Thanks for the constructive criticism much appreciated. Ciaran do you really believe your answers, take a look at your response about Tesco, KBC and EFC board making a return on share investments?..are you a communist or subscribe to the ?Socialist Worker?. Tesco is one of the most profitable companies around today and next to Wall-Mart are the second largest and most profitable, last listed profit over £2 billion pounds. EFC Board have a right to a return on their investment they own the company for god sake. Majority of fans voted for the move to Kirkby is that not a fact any longer? KBC, if LCC shown as much commitment recently then we wouldn?t be having this debate. Points 5 and 6 is proven once a new stadium is on line, yes debt will increase but earning power will absorb the growth thus making EFC a better and clean acquisition. You all go along with the headlines of more lies, these are not lies just the process of planning a major £400 million build programme the goal posts move on a regular basis and sadly so do costs unless we negotiate a fixed price contract. Jay, I too have supported EFC all my life, as did my farther and grandfather. I was christened at St Lukes and named after the late great Alan Ball I spent 20 years looking out of my bedroom window & seeing GP!! I voted YES to move because I?m a realist and understand the basic fact that if you don?t have the funds to go alone then we need to go cap in hand to a sponsor, to date this is the best offer we have and the most deliverable its just the location that is suspect. It took me over a week to get over the emotional side of the vote but once I did I have no regrets and would do the same again today. I flippantly have a go at KEIOC because they went to bed with LCC when they should have been lobbing them to allow the project with Tesco to move to Walton Park. That partnership lost me the respect and today they are still connected. LCC have always had the power to solve this conundrum but they choose to do nothing. I trust EFC board far more than LCC, simple as. COYB
Andrew Preece
90   Posted 05/06/2008 at 13:03:36

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Apologies for posting on the original topic here, but I may have missed where the lie from KW was???

"8. Will the stadium be used for events other than football matches?

Although its primary use will, of course, be first-team matches, there will be the capacity to stage major shows and concerts at the stadium."

it states there will be "THE CAPACITY TO STAGE" not "IT WILL STAGE". Christ.

It was more than likely in the plans that staging concerts would be a source of revenue yes, but as someone has pointed out it’s obviously had to be removed for whatever reason.

That statement is NOT a lie, it was made a long time ago from initial plans and does not say the stadium WILL stage concerts/shows.

When was the last time someone started off with a plan to build a new stadium and it didn’t change from start to finish?!? I’d probably put my house on that never happening!
Colin Wordsworth
91   Posted 05/06/2008 at 13:18:59

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Dave

We all make mistakes, as far as Evertoms history is concerned who is to say that it did not happen for the right reason!

I personally think it was a disaster...but....did we actually have to share this stadium....I think we did!

So, yes....on The Kirkby issue I do trust the board on this one, why...because of Tesco!

They cannot afford this project to fail, they are a ’proper’ company and they have an Evertonian at the helm.



Yes LCC had every right to object....but it stinks!.......and as I stated.......why object if it is a bad scheme!

The simple facts are...it aint....and the stadium isn’t that bad either!!!!

It’s all about location...that’s all!

Alan Wilko has explained it far more elequantly than I!
David OKeefe
92   Posted 05/06/2008 at 13:27:52

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Colin

Straight back to wind up mode again.

Unwilling to engage on the issues.

Groundhog day.

Also Alan started with an ad-hominem, at which point i lost interest.

Steve Sweeney
93   Posted 05/06/2008 at 09:04:05

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The planning approval from Knowsley is expected on Monday, then what?? Delays, Delays, Delays... the cost at £78M will soar over the next 18 months while politicians decide what can or will be allowed. However if EFC can raise £78M for a new stadium, why can they not raise £78m to redevelop Goodison? Surely it would not take much more than that to increase capacity and provide a completely re-developed Goodison with state-of-the-art facilities. OR AM I AN IDIOT??
Colin Wordsworth
94   Posted 05/06/2008 at 13:35:58

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Dave

You are obviously far more educated than me with these big words!

But, no, it wasn’t a wind up what I have written is my opinion. sorry!

ps be careful saying G....... D.y, I got told off for saying that.

....actually that’s flattery....thanks!
George Stuart
95   Posted 05/06/2008 at 06:45:10

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Notwithstanding one's position on the Kirkby development, I feel it resonable for all good Evertonians to encourage Knowsley Council to object to the redevelopment of Stanley Park and environs for the benefit of Liverpool Football Club. Clearly any development would pull trade away from Kirkby, Bootle & indeed County Road. Sauce for the goose!
Kev Prytherch
96   Posted 04/06/2008 at 19:32:35

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?Everton FC The club the city couldn?t live without.? Has a nice ring to it doesn?t it? I?ve read countless arguments on this site about whether Kirby is a good move or not, whether we?ve been sold a lie, whether it will leave us in ruins in the future etc etc. It seems to me that with all Tesco?s experience deal looks on, even with LCC opposing the move. Now?s the time to accept the decision and look at what else we can do.

My question being. . . Can we lobby the councils to extend the city boundaries to include Kirby? I know the arguments about moving away from the city centre, no concerts etc will still materialise but imagine the bragging rights we could have.

If the move goes ahead and we do nothing but squabble over the issue you can just imagine the chants for years. You?re just a small club from Kirby etc. And then what about when you enter the city, ?Welcome to Liverpool, home of Liverpool Fc?. Doesn?t bear thinking about.

Imagine if we could get the boundaries extended, ?Everton FC, The peoples club, the club the city couldn?t live without?. I?d buy into that, no doubt these endless kids in the future who would supposedly support Liverpool if we moved into Kirby. Imagine selling that to a kid, ?we?re the team the city just couldn?t let leave?.

So let?s get some support together and get the boundaries altered, let's stay in the city regardless of whether we move or not. It made me proud to be labelled The People's Club, the club the city couldn?t live without would make me just as proud.

Ciarán McGlone
97   Posted 05/06/2008 at 10:46:45

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If Mr Kenwright and his cronies on the Everton board really loved this club as much as they say they do.... then surely our plan 'B' is staring him in the face...

Mr Kenwright's love for this club means he would have absolutely no problem selling his majority shareholding to a genuine investor at the price he originally bought them for...

Surely if Mr Kenright sold his shares for £8 million and the other shareholders did the same thing, then the money that an investor would have saved on the purchase could be offset against their initial outlay for building us a decent stadium.....

So Mr Kenwright, do you really love this club... or is that a step too far?

John Turner
98   Posted 05/06/2008 at 13:33:50

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Alan Willo

Do you REALLY believe that the majority of Evertonians voted for the move to Kirkby?

Do you believe that 36,662 people (the number of voting packs sent out) is the majority of Evertonians?

Out of those 36,662 voting packs, 15,230 voted yes. A majority?



Also, if the club has no money to redevelop Goodison, where will the money needed for Kirkby come from? Or do you still believe it will be ’virtually free’?
Ciarán McGlone
99   Posted 05/06/2008 at 13:42:22

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Alan,

You seem to ignore the glaringly persumptive and erroneous content of your posts by refering to people’s political persuasion. Whether I read the socialist worker or you read the daily mail is irrelevant!

The fact remains that the majority of your ’7 points’ were fabricated and presumptive nonsense.

...and no amount of snarling at my assertion that people who love this club should treat it with benevolence, will erase that fact!

However, your suggestion that BK and co. are entitled to a return on their investment...is a cogent indictment that money is the most important factor to these people.. not matter how many times they say they love the club...

Thanks for cementing that rhetorical point for me!
Ciarán McGlone
100   Posted 05/06/2008 at 14:31:04

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"Tesco. They cannot afford this project to fail, they are a ?proper? company and they have an Evertonian at the helm."

I think you’ll find Tesco can more than afford this project failing!


Jay Harris
101   Posted 05/06/2008 at 14:16:27

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Lets just get one thing straight Tesco Terry might be an Evertonian but it is HE who is taking advantage of his connections not the other way around.

All the objections to this scheme are Tesco related not the stadium.

Do you think Tesco would have a chance if it were not for the stadium development.

Tesco are not contributing nor sponsoring anything other than a few inexperienced(at stadium building)Design and build consultants.

I wish people would stop claiming that Tesco are funding or subsidising this development.

THEY ARE NOT.

Therefore any other commercial developer has the opportunity to "assist" EFC in identifying and building a new stadium site.

EXCEPT FOR ONE THING

The now infamous "Exclusivity agreement" that gives the board the perfect opportunity to reject every approach made.

THIS BOARD STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN
Alan Willo
102   Posted 05/06/2008 at 17:52:24

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Ciaran, my comments are directed in that tone because your answers are pathetic at best. Example, I mention we have a sponsor which is fact, your reply is they are a corporate leech! EFC is a Ltd company and as such its owners are entitled to dividends or to sell their stake holding at whatever price they can get. Your reply and slant is BK should sell at cost to prove he loves the club. These replies and not based on the real world and how a business or ltd company deal, your deal in Fantasy not reality that?s why you cant answer my 7 points with a practical reply because you and many other who are against don?t seem to understand that EFC is a business and you and I don?t own it and we don?t necessary have a say in what direction we should take financially. EFC fans voted in a majority to move to Kirkby, I do believe that was the question a simple Yes or No, again your comments, this is fabrication?..don?t think so its fact. Maybe you should have asked for proportional representation in the vote? Or would that mean you?re a liberal like the great Mr Bradley? I do hope not but I?m glad you?re an Evertonian like me regardless of the fact we are miles apart when it comes to this subject but I welcome any response no matter how offensive it is. That jibe about reading the mail was very cruel, even I don?t read that paper. COYB
Gavin Ramejkis
103   Posted 05/06/2008 at 18:53:10

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Chris Briddon the £78m includes the sale of Goodison Park and naming rights for the new stadium, Goodison Park is already mortgaged so don’t even expect full market value as there are monies owed on it to a bank and the naming rights have fluctuated to say the least claiming figures higher than those gained by Arsenal who are a very successful high profile London based side.

Tony Williams, no offence taken from your semantics but Alan Willo claimed this as if fact, not even projected figures have been presented so it is wrong and with spiralling costs the figures would be incorrect from initial ones even if they were known.

Semantics now appear to be the "ifs", "maybes" and "up to" lines in the spin documentation and brochures and soundbites from the CEO.
Dave Wilson
104   Posted 05/06/2008 at 20:21:59

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Alan
You state "the majority of fans voted for the move to Kirkby" then asked is this not fact anymore ?
It never was mate. 15,000 does not constitute the majority of our fanbase, its probably nearer a third

while your telling Ciaran and "many others who are against" what we dont understand, let me tell you what we do understand
We - the fans - are the soul of this club, without us BK would own 60% of nothing
Your right, legally we dont have a say in what direction the club takes, but we can most definitely influence it
If you care passionately enough, that is’nt merely a right, its a fucking obligation
Jay Harris
105   Posted 05/06/2008 at 21:46:26

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Alan

Would you please explain in what way Tesco are "sponsoring us"???
Graham Atherton
106   Posted 05/06/2008 at 21:52:47

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Hi Jay

£31 million in gate receipts compared to our £17 million is pretty significant! (and I think sponsorship and corporate entertainment should be put down as matchday earnings?!!)
The point I was making is we have a support base that is less able to pay higher prices and we are unlikely to be able to compete unless we can attract fans that can pay more.
The same goes for corporate income - sales of merchandise depend on how much the fan base spends and corporate entertainment depend strongly on facilities available - neither will improve at the present GP.

’Gentrification’ and broadening of our fan base is inevitable if we are to compete, the whole working class ’soul’ of the club has to change if we stay at Goodison or not, unless you are of a mind to accept mediocrity as an aceptable standard for the club to attain.

Involvement of investors will accelerate rather than slow down that process as they would be even more sure to want a return on their money.

I want Everton to compete at the highest level, so to me it is logical that we either move to better and more profitable premises, or charge a whole lot more for tickets at GP (and even then corporate income will be poor).

Be careful what you wish for...if we can’t radically improve Everton’s facilities very quickly 4th place could soon be our high water mark.
Steve Dooley
107   Posted 05/06/2008 at 22:43:45

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Rich Jones, for the flagging, if the access to your garden is clear and there are no constraints, how about £78 Million, if there are constraints, lets call it a round £400 Million

Deal?
Glen Naylor
108   Posted 06/06/2008 at 00:37:43

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Cards on the table..... I am from the Wirral and have followed our great team since 1975. On this side of the river, lads I go to the match with are getting so pissed off with this impending disaster (ground move) that, as good as last season was game-wise (Nuremburg etc), they will not renew their season tickets this year but pick and choose their games...... We will not go to Kirkby... End of...
Andy Willox
109   Posted 06/06/2008 at 09:08:35

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Alan Willo, as usual you have your opinion and try to make facts twist to fit it, but you seem to have overlooked something in your ?business? model. We?re talking brand loyalty here, something the board have taken advantage of in this move. It is quite acceptable to shift from one shop to another, ie Tesco to Asda, as most loyalties there are dependant on locality and access. Football is more akin to religion but would you switch from Catholic to Protestant ? or vice versa?. Your loyalty to your team remians, so in this case it isn?t applicable in the true business sense. Business models have many factors, but brand loyalty in football is a completely different thing
Ciarán McGlone
110   Posted 06/06/2008 at 08:59:16

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Alan,

Its really quite impossible to have a structured debate if you refuse to accept salient facts....such as the incontrovertaible one that fans did not vote for what is on the table at the moment!

Neither do you seem to accept that football clubs are not indicative of a ’normal business’....

Can I suggest you try and grasp these concepts....maybe then you’ll be armed to understand the current situation
Barry Sherlock
111   Posted 06/06/2008 at 09:24:47

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All,

Please see below from Warren Bradley.
I just want the best for EFC and for our great club to not fall behind with the rest of the Premier League.


Thank you for your views on all of the situations.

All I would say is you have been extremely badly advised.

Finally, can I request that in future you are less agressive and threatening in your correspondence.


Warren Bradley
Leader of Liverpool City Council
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld


----- Original Message -----
To: Bradley, Warren (Leader of the City Council)
Sent: Thu Jun 05 10:25:37 2008
Subject: Liverpool City Council


Councillor,

Make the big bigger.
Make the best better.
Make the rich richer.
Elitism.

Knowsley need Everton/Tesco in their council area.
Liverpool have capital of culture, Liverpool One, The Albert Dock, The Kings Dock arena, St Johns Beacon, St Johns Market, Anfield/the new Anfield, Edge Lane Development. To name but a few.

What will happen to Kirkby/Knowsley without investment, without new infrastructure, without development? Do you care?

In a radio interview yesterday you said that you had arrived at this decision because of the effect it will have on LCC and had nothing to do with keeping Everton in the city.
We already know that.
We know that; the tunnel trumpet site......... what a slap in the face that was.
What about the garden festival site? You could have made that happen.

The new Liverpool One site is something to be proud of. I was there yesterday. I met a couple from Manchester. Should they be allowed in? Surely LCC would not have gotten planning permission if it was going to take business from surrounding council areas?

One rule for one.........

This project is going to fail now. With no way forward.

A Shared stadium? Wake up councillor. Are you in touch with how the fans feel about that??? Do you care? As long as it’s something for LCC to be proud of and to show to the world.
Forget weather it is wrong or right.
And where would we put this fantastic stadium? Stanley Park I guess? Isn’t that just Everton lodging with Liverpool? Can’t you see that would not work. Can’t you see that the economics have to be right for stadiums to be built.

Apparently you were an Evertonian once.
Not anymore.


Regards,
Tom Hughes
112   Posted 06/06/2008 at 12:01:49

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Barry,
I think WB is correct.

What you are advocating if applied across the whole region would mean every peripheral estate having a monster shopping centre that it simply does not need...... what next, the same for Halewood or Huyton or Crosby. Liverpool city-centre is the engine room for the whole city region. It is by far the biggest employer, and the most accessible part of the whole city. Over 100,000 people depend on it for work and many more for retail, leisure and cultural pursuits etc. Grosvenor have just invested a £billion in the city-centre, with a similar amount coming from other investors...... can the city really risk jeopardising all this for a speculative development on the edge of its population that will suck custom from this brand new and rejuvenating development downtown...... surely this would be liking shooting ourselves in the foot. We should compete with Manchesters of this world, not with ourselves!
Barry Sherlock
113   Posted 06/06/2008 at 14:06:19

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Tom,
WB is NOT correct. LCC have never supported EFC or offered anywhere half decent.

I don’t care about shops or casinos or swimming pools or competing with Manchester for anything other than Football. EFC and what is in there interests are what I’m interested in.

Unlike alot of fans I was in favour of the Kirkby move because it offered a realisic opportunity to move forward. I’m not narrow minded. I never thought it would be for free. I never throught it would be as good as the Emirates or Old Trafford. We all want that - but it’s not real.

Kirkby was/is a good solution for the club to move forward. Staying put is the same as going backwards.
Tom Hughes
114   Posted 06/06/2008 at 16:18:42

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Barry,
They offered us KD..... with enabling and grants that would have meant we would have had a truly world class stadium for just £30m.

Remember what happened next?

The vast majority of clubs have stayed put and redeveloped their existing stadia unless circumstances or opportunities have prompted otherwise. Have Man U/Chelsea gone backwards? Of course every club’s situation is different. But, we can expand GP incrimentally, in affordable phases. That way we avoid the massive initial outlay that regardless of what you say..... is not what was offered at the vote. The cost to EFC will now probably be in excess of £100m. A fraction of that can get the club upto the same capacity while preserving our history and heritage, and not compromising transport/identity issues in the way that Kirkby will. It’s not fanciful nor unusual, it is infact the usual way forward. I’m not against moving per se, but it has to be a measured decision against all the options. This has never happened here, the whole process has fallen apart exposing all the fragile fabrications that held it up in the first place.
Paul Morgan
115   Posted 06/06/2008 at 20:34:33

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All I want from our board are answers to the following questions:
1. Why is the club not represented in the new Liverpool One development?
2. Have you studied the proposals offered by various architects vis-a-vis GP redevelopment in a truly objective fashion?
3. What has been EFC’s involvement in our city’s Capital of Culture year?
4. Why do so many Evertonians appear to have so little faith in your ability to lead us with vision, honesty and imagination?

These are not intended to be leading questions. They must be put to the board, and should they fail to answer them publically, we as fans must decide to make a stand for our democratic right to be listened to. What form such a stand should take I cannot suggest now, but we must do something substantial in order for Keith Wyness and Bill Kenwright to be encouraged to lead us with more transparency on this and other issues.

I was a "Yes" minded fan at the start, but now have great reservations about the whole scheme.
Terry Maddock
116   Posted 07/06/2008 at 16:58:00

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I think ..taking the fact that it has been presented in 20 or 30 so different "debates" or posts or "new" articles... that it can no longer be considered a surprise, newsworthy or even discussion-worthy of mentioning that the final draft for DK states that we can't have concerts there...

Unless of course you are an anti-Kirkby drumbanger with nothing new to say... In whih case just carry on ranting...

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