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Clutching at straws and a missed opportunity?..

By David Wallbank :  08/06/2008 :  Comments (54) :
I said I would never write on here again, but I can?t keep silent. My last post talked about the move, why I want to go and why Goodison isn?t good enough. Some people took my comments the wrong way. I can?t help now but think Kirkby won?t happen, and we?ll have to stay at Goodison and wait for another answer.

I recently moved house, and while packing I found an old Liverpool Echo in with my Evetonian Mags (paper ones ? remember them?) And the front page had a picture of the Kings Dock, a quote saying ?It?s Ours?. I felt ill looking at it, I can only imagine life now playing at that site, in a boss stadium now (retractable pitch and everything else that was promised.) It never happened...

I now get that feeling over Kirkby! I voted Yes, and no doubt if the wheels come off this project the No voters will voice their opinions out loud (as people from our city do!). But if Kirkby fails, what will happen? I really want to know a timeline... Will we be in a new stadium (not just for the sake of it, but for all the right reasons!) within 5 years, 10 years?

I have only just started to notice in a small way why it would be important to stay in the city boundaries! Again it makes me sick that we could have been city-centred, based in the Kings Dock and who knows how much we?d have in the bank via various revenue streams. Paul McCartney probably would have played at our new stadium rather than our old home!

An idea that is in my head, never spoken it out loud?..could we play one season at Anfield and smash Goodison to bits and build it all over again? Even though I have in the past talked about many reasons why I hate the surrounding area of Goodison, and sometimes the people in it. Maybe two brand new stadiums close by, with more money in the area than ever before, it would be possible to regenerate the area far beyond anyone?s imagination. If I was told play one season at Liverpool and you can stay at Goodison I think I would say Yes! But then again I said Yes to Kirkby, maybe I'm to easy!

Would a new Goodison be as good as our rivals? Probably Not? Could we afford such a plan on our own? No! Have Liverpool Council tried the best to look after the cities oldest club? No!

I am still in favour of Kirkby, a fresh start and a new beginning! But I am not holding my breath over the outcome! I get a sinking feeling that we?ll not be moving for a good while lomg.

I would say get off Blue Bill's and Bully Beef's backs though, they're not evil people! One of them is a true blue and don?t kid yourself in thinking otherwise! Bully Beef didn?t get the job accidentally, he is a businessman, and since his arrival we have performed better off the pitch and thus started to play better on it with extra money being available to David Moyes to strengthen the squad.

It's not a major conspiracy going on behind closed doors, it's an idea to create a better Everton. Fortune favours the brave, and it?s the biggest decision in the clubs history to move. Maybe I am too much of an optimist?

Man City landed on their feet big time with the City of Manchester Stadium, I just wish we could have their luck and finally have something go right for us!

It?s a leap of faith into the unknown with a move, we have been given one option and that?s it! Move or stay still and never progress. I would gamble on a move ? a leap of faith is all it will take!

Reader Comments

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Erik Dols
1   Posted 09/06/2008 at 15:22:36

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Man City paid £35 million to convert the stadium. And some crooked Thai came in and spend loads of cash. That is why they ’landed on their feet big time’. We will have to pay at least £78 million for a stadium that seems to be a lesser choiche than the CoMS and there is no guarantee that a billionair will come and throw bags of money at us once we move. I think the comparison with Man City is absolute rubbish.

Besides, we finished this season 5 places above them, with 10 points more and with a goal difference that is 30 (thirty!) goals better than them. Why are you jealous at them? We’re bigger than them and if this Thaksin guy gets fed up with the club next year they’ll be in big trouble.
Adam Cunliffe
2   Posted 09/06/2008 at 15:44:04

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Totally agree about playing at Anfield for a season to do up GP. Tom Hughes has proved that it can be done in his letter on the KEIOC website. City got lucky because of the Commonwealth Games and West Ham are going to get the new London OlympicStadium after 2012.

Don?t agree with you about Wyness though. I like Kenwright but Wyness is a big fat liar. That has been proved many times over in the whole Kirkby debacle. We need to concentrate on getting success on the field and then perhaps a new owner may come along and build us fantastic stadium on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey.
John Hughes
3   Posted 09/06/2008 at 15:23:23

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We could move, but you said in your article about moving for the right reasons.BB and BB might be doing this for what they believe are the right reasons but I don?t think we have the right stadium or the right location.

You have made it all to obvious. The Kings Dock. I voted to move to the Kings Dock even with the option to redevelop Goodison but I voted no to Kirkby. Why? I think it?s obvious don?t you? The Kings Dock is what Everton deserved. That Stadium in a City Location.

Look at the pictures of that stadium, I remember looking at them being full of pride, thinking this is it, were gonna dominate the city, the league and Europe for ever looking at that. The shite were shitting themselves and my optimism was at an all-time high. The ?Destination Kirkby? doesn?t hit the same spot. In fact it couldn?t hit a cow's arse with a banjo. It just isn?t right that a club of Everton's stature be used as a make-weight for Tesco to build a store, it doesn?t sit right that the stadium looks like a Meccano build and the fit-out would be using the old bogs from Goodison. It doesn?t sit with me that that metropolis that is Kirkby can even cope with a reserve game never mind a European Final or international.

There are reasons why some locations don?t attract investment. You have to ask why hasn?t Kirkby had investment before? If the destination is so good why didn?t the shite enquire about it? Why aren?t Man Utd enquiring about it afterall they don?t play in Manchester do they??? Oh sorry I forgot, they redeveloped their stadium over a period of time. There was no comparison to Goodison the way OT used to be. Just look at it now. Clever planning and phased development. Who said it doesn?t work?

At the end of the day even the most fervent of yes voter has to acknowledge that we are selling our soul to enable a supermarket company to build a store and what we are getting is at best a copy of the Ricoh, the Reebok, St Mary's or the laughable Stadium of Light wannabe in Sunderland. We won?t have any history there and we won?t make any there. There are sayings like "you don?t know what you?ve got till it?s gone" and "the grass isn?t always greener on the other side" and, at the end of the day, me being a No voter wouldn?t like to say to you. "I told you so!"
Gavin Ramejkis
4   Posted 09/06/2008 at 16:05:46

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Keith’s business acumen is a joke, marketing outsourced and shite; he can’t even have a store in the city centre or Liverpool 1complex, maybe that development and the capital of culture crept up on him - he must be about the only CEO in Merseyside not trying to make money out of it, operating losses remain at an all time high and I’ll stick my neck on the line and say the only reasons Everton are still where they are is down to the massive amounts coming from the Sky television deal which has absolutely fuck all to do with Keith’s business brain and DM’s management skills in getting Everton in Europe three out of the last four seasons. Can people stop waxing lyrical about the devil incarnate Keith Wyness who doesn’t give two fucks about this club beyond what he can earn on it’s payroll and as a direct result of business he can run as a spinoff.
Anthony O'Sullivan
5   Posted 09/06/2008 at 17:18:37

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Isnt there a massive Docks regeneration project planned for Liverpool? I was glancing through some work propaganda and saw we will be involved in the project at some level on this futuristic looking plan.

Can't we get looking at a site in the new development for a stadium? Wouldn't it please everybody?
Danny Naylor
6   Posted 09/06/2008 at 18:52:58

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QUOTE - At the end of the day even the most fervent of yes voter has to acknowledge that we are selling our soul to enable a supermarket company to build a store and what we are getting is at best a copy of the Ricoh, the Reebok, St Mary?s or the laughable Stadium of Light wannabe in Sunderland. We won?t have any history there and we won?t make any there. There are sayings like "you don?t know what you?ve got till it?s gone" and "the grass isn?t always greener on the other side" and, at the end of the day, me being a No voter wouldn?t like to say to you. "I told you so!" - QUOTE

Tesco?s would build a store without us if they wanted so how are we selling our soul for them to build a supermarket?

The board saw/sees a viable and do-able deal by partnering a huge UK buisness that would spend millions redeveloping the area to house a modern 50,000 seater football stadium.

I would love for us to redevelop Goodison but don't people think that it was the first thing the board looked at? And I bet it could be done. But not for the money EFC will spend on a brand new stadium, it would be double. Someone mention it could be £60mill for one stand. Then there?s cost of facilites and expansion, the surround area - even the city centre and Walton would be affected by an extra 10,000 people that would need to be sorted - there would be similar problems as if we built a new ground at other site in or outside of the city; maybe be not as big, but it?d still need to be sorted and that would cost more money.

As for the ground share? The shite don't want it so we?re fucked there, and the majority of fans dont want it. We?d be the Oliver Twist of the city asking for handouts while the fans will enjoy the view of the shites chrest every "home" game, and their shiny red chairs.

And also....How come Knowsley Council can be open and helpful over the whole thing and Liverpool City Council just shut the door and give us the finger? Maybe LCC want to see us go, be glad to see us go, because they?d get something for a massive hole where Goodison used to be? You can only talk to a brick wall once before you realise it won't talk back and you have to move on.

John Hughes
7   Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:42:25

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No Tesco’s couldn’t build a store without us. They need a "Leisure" facility to accompany the build and the Stadium is that. You can’t tell me that you think the stadium and kirkby are right for Everton????? If tesco where doing this for the good of Kirkby the "Leisure Centre" they are knocking down would have been rebuilt for the people of Kirkby. Don’t think for one second that this isn’t about lining pockets and you really need to look at the shite were being offered to know it’s not our pockets being lined.
Paul Ell
8   Posted 09/06/2008 at 20:08:16

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This is my first post!

To go back to the point about playing at Anfield - it’s obviously an ideal option location (and history?!) wise, but I can’t see this ever happenning.

I think it’s been mentioned before, but why would LFC want to help one of their direct competitors to progress and develop? It makes no business sense - the revenue they would get from us would be small compared to the benefits they would enjoy with a major rival re-locating.

COYB!
Stewart Marsland
9   Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:57:28

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iWhen are you gonna realise? We just don't have enough money to redevelop Goodison, it is obviously everybody's preference but it's never happening ? no matter what KEIOC say.They have not come up with a credible alternative have they? That doesn't mean mililons we haven't got, anyway? If we stay where we are, we are finished (for reasons documented by better than me). Have you been to teh Upper Bullens recently? Facilities are embarrasing beyond belief.
Danny Naylor
10   Posted 09/06/2008 at 20:27:38

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QUOTE - No Tesco?s couldn?t build a store without us. They need a "Leisure" facility to accompany the build and the Stadium is that. You can?t tell me that you think the stadium and kirkby are right for Everton????? If tesco where doing this for the good of Kirkby the "Leisure Centre" they are knocking down would have been rebuilt for the people of Kirkby. Don?t think for one second that this isn?t about lining pockets and you really need to look at the shite were being offered to know it?s not our pockets being lined - QUOTE

Tesco’s dont need a leisure facility and could build a store wherever they want without any partnership or help because of what they can offer to an area - new jobs, better shopping, more revenue, land prices up - they dont need Everton or anyone else to do that, and havent done for decades to do what they do.

Without Everton in the picture they could just build a centre. They dont/wouldnt need to knock the sports centre down (which has already happened being its just a mass of land now by the way) and create a place to shop.

They’re not doing this and are building in Kirkby because they see an oppourtunity to partner EFC, who are looking for land to build a new stadium, and put money forward for developing the area and helping with the stadium while keeping their own interests where (hopefully) both parties are happy - its what buisness company’s do, you never get anything for nothing.

Do I think its that Kirkby and the stadium are the best for EFC like you say? Of course not - I want a 60,000+ stadium on Standly Park or redevelope Goodison into a stadium like that. But do you know what? Its not going to happen for at least another decade. But Kirkby can happen.

If it doesnt I can see nothing being down about a new ground till 2013 (only 5 years away) unless the club gets taken over by billionaires.

Its not a nice position to be in but its where we are.





Tom Hughes
11   Posted 09/06/2008 at 22:51:18

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Danny,

"And also....How come Knowsley Council can be open and helpful over the whole thing and Liverpool City Council just shut the door and give us the finger? Maybe LCC want to see us go, be glad to see us go, because they?d get something for a massive hole where Goodison used to be? You can only talk to a brick wall once before you realise it won’t talk back and you have to move on".

Knowsley want a massive retail development to compete with Liverpool and put them on the map..... that’s why they’re all helpful now! But show me where and when LCC "just shut the door"? Were they shutting the door by offering us the Kings Dock? (Who slammed that particular door firmly shut and why?). Where they shutting the door by offering to put a dedicated planning department team together to look at the Loop when the planning department was already the busiest in the UK with all the developments currently materialising, only to be shunned by the club who simply refused to entertain it? Who shut the door on Bestway who had even commissioned the biggest stadium design company in the world to do an outline study of their site? Who were first to shut the door on Sainsbury’s over the WHP site? Doesn’t exclusivity essentially mean "shutting the door" on all options? What company would do that before studying those options? I assume you know that the heads of both leading parties in LCC are both Everton season Ticket holders as is the head of the city planning Department, and all have expressed a strong desire for the club to remain in this city!?
Danny Naylor
12   Posted 10/06/2008 at 00:07:54

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"Knowsley want a massive retail development to compete with Liverpool and put them on the map..... that?s why they?re all helpful now! But show me where and when LCC "just shut the door"? Were they shutting the door by offering us the Kings Dock? (Who slammed that particular door firmly shut and why?)."

Big Bill didnt have the cash. But would they let us have the site again? No. And where would we get the 200+million to fund it now?

"Where they shutting the door by offering to put a dedicated planning department team together to look at the Loop when the planning department was already the busiest in the UK with all the developments currently materialising, only to be shunned by the club who simply refused to entertain it?"

But where would the money come from to fund it? I could design a giant pink elephant to rest ontop of the spinx but I wouldnt have the money to do so.

"Who shut the door on Bestway who had even commissioned the biggest stadium design company in the world to do an outline study of their site?"

Again, they could do all that but how much would it cost and who would fund it? Like Bestway could finanace a project for 300+million

Who were first to shut the door on Sainsbury?s over the WHP site? Doesn?t exclusivity essentially mean "shutting the door" on all options? What company would do that before studying those options?"

They probably look at them and saw the fact that they had to stump up more than they were willing to pay. Didnt some of the sites have restrictions of ground size?

"I assume you know that the heads of both leading parties in LCC are both Everton season Ticket holders as is the head of the city planning Department, and all have expressed a strong desire for the club to remain in this city!?"

And what did they come up with? Groundshare.

But I guess LCC did all they could and the EFC board spat right back in their face before going home to pray to satan.
Robert Jones
13   Posted 09/06/2008 at 22:08:38

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Anyone that has read my past posts regarding Kirkby will know that from the start I was a staunch supporter of the move to Kirkby; however, since then the lies have continued to flow from Porky's mouth and until a couple of weeks ago I had been trying and trying to find reasons to support the move and continued to accept the bullshit that came from him in the vain hope that it would deliver the world class stadium that this club deserves. But I like many others have got fed up trying and joined the dark side... The question I ask is, while so many people are beginning to turn against the idea in their thousands and the Yes supporters who were once the huge majority become a small minority, is it too late for the Kirkby Train to dismantle?
Dave Wilson
14   Posted 10/06/2008 at 05:23:05

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Danny

If BK couldnt raise the 40 million for the KD, how can raise 80 million for DK ?

Are you really happy that this board would spend 80 million to go to a stadium that will alienate a very large percentage of of the fans, but wont spend the comparetive pittance to look at other people designs ?

I dont understand how you can say "they probably looked at them " in reference to WHP options
Didnt the board dismiss them out of hand, unashamedly claiming we have entered into an exclusivity agreement with Tesco ?
The board have hidden behind this "exclusivity agreement " for too long, not only have they rejected all thats been offered, they have very clearly and publicly discouraged anyone from coming forward with any new proposals

I dont subscibe to the "backhander" inuendos, I dont believe our board are "evil"
They have merely been outmanouvered by some of the sharpest businessmen around. Tesco, by making themselves a one stop shop, have manipulated the whole situation, if they were so desperate to help EFC, why not build us a stadium down Great Homer st ?

The answer is, they can get that without us
Steve Carter
15   Posted 10/06/2008 at 09:16:11

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Fellas, this is insane. On all arguments except emotion - economics, carbon footprint, you name it - ground share is a no brainer. Why, oh why can’t LFC, EFC and the Council get locked in a room and not let out until they come up with agreement on it. FFS it can only benefit Liverpool and Merseyside. Building two new stadia within a few miles of each other that are each only going to be used every second saturday (or thereabouts) for about 9 months of the year is insane in this day and age.
David Thompson
16   Posted 10/06/2008 at 09:44:02

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In terms of playing at Anfield, I had a conversation just recently with a senior Director over there, and he suggested the very same thing!

I think the stumbling block, however, would be that they would have to have moved out first, (and that doesn’t look like happening any time soon) so any opportunity for us would be 4-5 years away.
Tony Marsh
17   Posted 10/06/2008 at 12:24:44

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Quite a bit to digest in this article but the one bit I wont swallow is the Kieth Wyness has improved the club on and off the field since he arrived.

Wyness is a Grade A shithouse and has as much buisness acumen as Gerald Ratner. Since Bully took over the job at Goodison we have sold off everything we own and now rely totally on Sky money for our revenue.

The kit sales profits have been sold off along with any profits the catering side might've made. Bellfield has gone and now we rent a training groung in Halewood.

The corporate side of things at Everton are in meltdown with many members this season refusing to renew lounge memberships for different reasons... And don't get me started on the bonus Wyness will pocket if this Kirkby fiasco is allowed to happen.

By all means have your say, David, but please spare us the Bullshit regarding Fat head Wyness, the man's a fucking joke and the worse thing to happen to Everton since Mike Walker. Some of us were on to this clown years ago and it's about time the rest of you woke up to what this conman is all about.

Dave Wilson
18   Posted 10/06/2008 at 12:51:51

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Steve Carter

By entering into this seemingly endless exclusivity agreement, the board have painted them selves into a corner - although I suspect Tesco Terry was holding the brush - they are unable to sit in a room with anyone - except Tesco

Its an absolute fucking shambles
Ej Ruane
19   Posted 10/06/2008 at 13:03:13

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Wyness was on telly last night saying "Of course we ALL have a huge emotional attachment to Goodison Park but...." (he just stopped short of putting a string of onions round his ’neck’)

Question: Why the fuck would HE have an huge emotional attachment to Goodison?

The answer is, of course he doesn’t.

Nor does he have any emotional attachment to the team, the history of the club or anything to do with Everton.

He’s in business for himself and his family and....that’s it.

It could be cars, chocolate, farming equipment - it just happens to be our club.

So why would he say it?

He said it because he thinks enough Evertonians are dumb enough to buy into the idea that he gives two fucks about anything other than what goes into his fat arse-pocket.

Is he right?

Well, if in 3 years you find yourself standing on a platform in Kirkby pissed-wet-through, STILL waiting for your train at 6.45pm (KO 3.00pm Sat) the answer, in my opinion, will be ’yes, he probably is’



Jay Harris
20   Posted 10/06/2008 at 14:35:28

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The answer my friends is blowin in the wind.

Look at the "Redevelopment of Goodison" by Ward McHugh that I dug out from the archives.

This shows that Goodison can be reveloped into a 55000 seater stadium and would only have cost c.40 million in 2000.

So thats Kings Dock and GP that can now be levelled at Kenwright’s door.

However the construction inflation index shows 60% increase between 2000 and 2006 and with the current slowdown in construction I think it would be reasonable to assume less than double the cost since 2000 which brings us to the magical figure of around 80 million and we would own the ground and the land and Bully would not get a bonus.
What this does prove however is the deceipt of this board in claiming redeveloping GP is not possible.
paul c
21   Posted 10/06/2008 at 17:30:18

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i cant help but think goodsion is costing us great new signings too!!!
Colin Wordsworth
22   Posted 10/06/2008 at 17:50:51

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Jay

Do you really believe that this has not been considered?...really!

I would suggest 40 mill in 2000 will be far more than 80 mill today given the huge increase in the price of steel!

...and how coincidental.....it reaches the mythical maximum figure for Kirkby....magic!

Let’s be honest, to redevelop Goodison will be far in excess of this figure. I will remind you that one of the no voters, an engineer stated that the Bullens Road stand will cost around 60 mill on its own!

Where are the real alternatives to Kirkby with the same facilities at the same price?......they just aren’t there!

And would planning permission be agreed to redevelop GP?......

Dave Wilson
23   Posted 10/06/2008 at 19:08:58

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Colin W

The board has flatly refused to investigate anything, so please stop saying there are no alternatives, you have said this countless times, when you clearly have no idea if this is true or not
If you stated that your happy with the board not to look for alternatives - which you clearly are - then at least your post will be factual rather than merely your opinion
Colin Wordsworth
24   Posted 10/06/2008 at 19:45:59

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Dave

I KNOW the club looked at many sites within the Liverpool boundary....and none suitable were offered!......

You tell me where the alternative sites are, and I will listen......

there is no moral high ground here!
Jim Lloyd
25   Posted 10/06/2008 at 19:40:00

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It seems to me that the club has no intention of looking in any depth at any possible alternative that could possibly be available. That is what really annoys and worries me. We have trevor Skempton and Tom Hughes, amongst others, who say that Goodison CAN be redeveloped. The club say a)it is falling down so we have to leave and b) it can’t be redeveloped.
We have HOK saying a stadium CAN be built on the Loop, the club say oh no it can’t. We hear belatedely that there was a propsal to build a stadium in Walton Hall Park...no mention of this from the club.
The club has not told us of all the pros and cons of all the alternatives available. It said in its voting materials that there was NO plan B. Well there seems to be a plan B, a plan C and a plan D. I would like to have seen the club show more determination to stay in its native city. In fact I’d have expected our club to stay in this city, end of story.
I cant help but think that the Kirkby option has offered Kenwright the chance to remain chairman and get what he thought, was a relatively cheap stadium. The real price, however, will be that we will have left this city to our rivals.
Dave Wilson
26   Posted 10/06/2008 at 19:57:56

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Colin

Then what is your interpretation of the "exclusivity agreement"

OH
And can you name some of the many sites you KNOW the club looked at and investigated
Jim Lloyd
27   Posted 10/06/2008 at 19:58:27

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PS and evidently it’ll cost us 80 million pounds to do so!
Colin Wordsworth
28   Posted 10/06/2008 at 20:09:35

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Dave

It was prior to the deal, when we were looking with our ’partner’ for suitable sites!

Jim......that’s funny!....



Dave Wilson
29   Posted 10/06/2008 at 20:27:05

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Colin

and the sites you KNOW we were looking at are ?
Colin Wordsworth
30   Posted 10/06/2008 at 20:30:10

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Dave

Switch Island and near the airport, but there were others.

The problem was the fact that we need a partner, and whether the council would allow the partner to develop with us!

Unfortunately we cannot afford to do it alone, hense Kirkby.

Dave Wilson
31   Posted 10/06/2008 at 20:36:45

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Colin

You see.

Although people often claim we looked at many sites, but when pushed to name, say 1/2 dozen of them, nobody can

Fact is, the club barely scratched the surface, when exploring options within the city

They hastely entered this exclusivity agreement and then to add insult to injury, claimed to have "exausted all other possibilities"

If the board really had exausted all other possibilities and still drew a blank, the support for DK would be far, far greater


The search for enabling partners was about as extensive as the search for alternative sites,
virtually non existant
Colin Wordsworth
32   Posted 10/06/2008 at 20:56:12

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Dave

whatever way you look at it, the Kirkby deal is a good one!.....it’s just the bugbear of location for some fans.

I could tell you more but I won’t betray a confidence, but the city was searched.

Dave Wilson
33   Posted 10/06/2008 at 21:04:09

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Colin

I’m just as Certain I wont change your mind as I am that you wont change mine

We’ll just have to continue to agree to disagree

got an awful feeling we’ll all lose in the end
Colin Wordsworth
34   Posted 10/06/2008 at 21:17:13

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Dave,

it wasn’t easy voting yes!

Let’s hope it all turns out well......whatever happens!

Our club deserves some luck!
Jay Campbell
35   Posted 10/06/2008 at 22:04:22

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Colin wake up lad Kenwright and Wyness have finished this once great club if it moves to Kirkby.

You will never ever turn some diehard fans and let me tell ya there is thousands that will NEVER set foot in Kirkby.

Colin Wordsworth
36   Posted 10/06/2008 at 22:13:20

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Jay

...i’m a bit old to be called a lad.....but hey there’s plenty of worse things to call me!

I can understand both sides of this, very good friends of mine have argued the toss with me on exactly the same subjects, it is very emotive.

We have all made a decision on this and there is not much, if any, middle ground.

It’s a pity the project was not in the city boundaries, then there wouldn’t be a problem!.

But it is just outside which probably makes it the value for money that it is!

It is a tragedy that so many Evertonians are at each others throats, but I hope that once this issue is resolved....one way or the other that it is for the betterment of our beloved club.

Danny Naylor
37   Posted 10/06/2008 at 22:47:01

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Jay Campbell

"Colin wake up lad Kenwright and Wyness have finished this once great club if it moves to Kirkby.

You will never ever turn some diehard fans and let me tell ya there is thousands that will NEVER set foot in Kirkby."

And there are thousands that will and thousands that will take up the places that are left by the fans that throw their dummy out of the pram.

If you dont want to support EFC because of the move then dont, go to the red shite - its closer and in the city.

People talk about history - you’re born a blue through family history, generations, through thick and thin, relegation to success, from bancruptcy to millions and back and forth.

I’ve heard people are worried about the future fans. If the future generations want to turn their back and go with the shite because "its in the city" then let them - they’re not wanted. The place is called Merseyside and we have to be the best on Merseyside not just in the city.
Kevin Mitchell
38   Posted 10/06/2008 at 23:03:53

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Danny Naylor, as someone who will never set foot in Kirkby I think you need to get real if you think there are thousands of everton supporters waiting to take my place, and by the way I wont be turning to the rs, that will be the easy choice of future fans growing up around the city.
Tell me where will the next generation of evertonians come from? New everton, stick it up your arse!
Danny Naylor
39   Posted 10/06/2008 at 23:34:56

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Kevin Mitchell

"Danny Naylor, as someone who will never set foot in Kirkby I think you need to get real if you think there are thousands of everton supporters waiting to take my place, and by the way I wont be turning to the rs, that will be the easy choice of future fans growing up around the city.
Tell me where will the next generation of evertonians come from? New everton, stick it up your arse!"

I am being real. And it’ll only be ONE fan who’ll take your place, like another fan will take a place of someone else to fill the stadium because I feel it would happen.

I find it funny you’d sit back and watch with a big grin to see if the club go tits up just to say "I told you so" if the move happens. That’s all you’ll get for your troubles the reward of "yep, I was right". Rather than support the club and go to the new stadium and help it work you’d be a fickle fan.

Yes, do you’re up most to stop the move, its a free country to do so. But if it does go through I find it amusing that you and people like you would see EFC as your diseased child - you love him but you wouldnt touch or go near him - which I find sad.

As for the future generations - like I’ve said, its about history, family history, you bring your children up to follow the team you follow. If they want to follow the RS, let them.

Being honest its easier to support the shite as it is now for the younger generation - more money, more success, they’re turning into the Man Utd of Merseyside with the amount of outside fanbase they have etc. And what do we have? History. Future generations will still support the team because of this.

But what happens if the stadium brings success to the team? Where do your Evertonians come from then?
Tommy Gibbons
40   Posted 10/06/2008 at 23:38:16

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The NO?s are great aren?t they, they can rebuild Goodison, they can relocate within the LCC area, they believe the Kings Dock was ours and they believe in Santa Claus!!!
But not once have they come up with a funded scheme with an enabling partner.. Hughes/Skempton think they can build stadiums..well good for them but they can?t get the money can they.. So go back to your Meccano sets boys and leave te building of stadiums to those that have funding for them.. We all know LCC have stonewalled us over GPark planning and Stanley Park over the years and only tears they?re shedding now are crocodile tears.. And as for the Kings Dock... what part of ?The council actually offered the site to Liverpool Football Club first? don?t you understand?! and of course we didn?t have a pot to piss in.. The £30m needed may as well have been £30 billion ergo we had to sell Rooney!!
And as for the idiot who states thousands will stay away.. haa haa haaaaa what fukin planet do you live on?! A handful of so called supporters who worship a stadium and not the club may not go.. but its their loss not ours or the clubs...Oh yeah.. and have you noticed TM has raised his ugly foul mouth again spewing his bile about everything Everton...is he your type of supporter then? if he is I hope you?ll join him in not coming to Kirkby!
never mind keioc its now all about keeping the faith and supporting your club because if YOU don?t it is YOU who will kill the club.. But I and the vast majority won?t let that happen because its Everton Football Club we support not Goodison Park.
Jim Lloyd
41   Posted 11/06/2008 at 00:04:04

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Colin, If I may be so bold what is it that you consider "funny."
If you think my assessment of Kenwright is funny, then fair enough just say so. If you think that the situation that Everton Football club, and more especially many hundreds, maybe thousands, of its supporters find themselves in, is funny, then I think you are mistaken.
I’m weighing up whether to go again to watch Everton. If you think thats funny, so be it. There are, however, a lot of Evertonians in my small circle, who are thinking the same. They may not all keep to what they say they will do, only time will tell. If a fair proportion decide not to follow Everton to Kirkby, I wouldn’t think it was funny, I think we would see the demise of our club.
Jim Lloyd
42   Posted 11/06/2008 at 00:18:49

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Dave,
Sorry, got distracted from your post. Alright, you voted yes, you have some doubts, you belately see that leaving the city might have an effect. I hope I’ve paraphrased your words there, no misrepresentation intended.
Without going into too much detail, we’re bunched into two camps. You belong (I think) to the fans who believe, for all its faults, that Kirkby is the only way forward.
I’m in the camp who believe it will mean the beginning of the end for our club, certainly as far as the support from this city will go in the future, so we differ in our assessments.
I’d like to ask you "If it was possible to stay in our city, would you think it worth while to look at every poosible alternative?"
Because that is what I want to know. If the club is prepared to look at every poosible alternative, And more importantly, share their findings with us, I’d guess that many Evertonians would then know in their hearts that the club has tried everything possible to stay in the city.
At the moment though,there are too many questions that remain unanswered.
So we could end up going to Kirkby, without seeing whether there is a viable alternative. I would hjazaqrd a guess in saying that is why so many blues are against this move.
Jay Campbell
43   Posted 11/06/2008 at 09:05:33

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Tommy Gibbons you may walk round with your head in the clouds but me i’m with it.
EJ Ruane
44   Posted 11/06/2008 at 09:40:02

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Tommy.

Couple of questions.

First is a simple one.

You just have to choose a number and...that?s it!

(NB: "We?d all follow the blues anywhere laar" will be taken as a wrong answer)

Question: How many miles away from the City Of Liverpool, would Everton FC have to move, before you would start to think ?maybe this isn?t Everton anymore??

Second.

Question: If BK wrote ?Everton FC? on the wall of a warehouse in Leeds (in felty) would you consider to be the new home of Everton FC?

I don?t know how many will stay away, but what I do know is, it won?t be MY Everton FC.

And that?s why, after 42 years, I?ll stop going to the match.

Disloyal?

To what?

Greedy, self-serving, bullshitting businessmen?

Or maybe you think the people responsible more this move are not greedy and they are not bullshitters (in which case, you?re an even bigger easily-duped-mug than you appear)

This in my opinion is a simple case of Everton FC being disloyal to Everton FC.

An odd situation...but there it is.

Will I blindly follow just as they stick Everton FC on the side of a Reebok?

Will I fuck!
Jay Harris
45   Posted 11/06/2008 at 12:23:06

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Tommy Gibbons

I know your heart is set on that cowshed in the outback but will you please get your facts straight.

EFC have never applied for permission to develop GP nor Stanley Park despite an excellent scheme (See home page)to develop GP which would have cost £40 million in 2000.

As for KD I?m amazed you could blame LCC for that.

BK led them to believe that EFC had £30 million "ringfenced" for that and on the strength of that they spent many man hours and got grants worth £95 million to build what would have been a world class stadium.

Typically BK "ballsed up" and we lost it.

Now I?m not a big fan of LCC but when you keep getting brickwalled by somebody you dont bother to pursue it and that would be anybody?s reaction when you?re dealing with the "smoke and mirrors" man.
Tom Hughes
46   Posted 11/06/2008 at 12:13:11

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Tommy Gibbons’
Who is providing the money for Kirkby? Everton FC! No-one else! Partnership with Knowsley and Tesco has afforded us the land and approximately 1 NEW STAND out of the whole development! BIG DEAL!? We already possess 4 stands (and 40,000 seats) at GP. We can replace 1 or 2 of these or add to 1 or 2 extensions, and still not be paying for anything like as many new seats as we are being expected to at Kirkby. Obstructed views will be erradicated in all upper tiers just by re-roofing with reprofiling reducing thoses downstairs

There is absolutely no evidence to support any of your arguments. As one by one everything supporting this move has been exposed as either inaccurate or completely false, it appears increasingly that SOME YES voter’s egos will not allow them to submit to the overwhelming evidence against their now extremely dated argument. Continued griping about council’s and finances no longer means anything, and is just a distraction from the real issues that will affect the whole future of our club regardless of whether you don’t like being proved wrong.

As for Meccanno sets..... how many stadia have BK and KW built? Trevor Skempton is the architectural consultant for the whole of the Grosvenor development and was involved in St James’ redevelopment, and I have been involved in several much bigger projects than the proposed Kirkby stadium. You?
Robbie Muldoon
47   Posted 11/06/2008 at 12:57:14

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To John Hughes....

Your first post, brilliant mate. I agree with everything and it is exactly how I feel, and I can?t see how every other Evertonian wouldn?t feel a similar way if they just sat back and really thought about it for a few minutes.
Paul Lally
48   Posted 11/06/2008 at 16:59:12

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Posting across all stadium threads on TW.
Goodison gone - club shop moved -

ALL TRACES OF EVERTON REMOVED FROM CITY OF LIVERPOOL

Yes voters, you have had your ballot, which you keep quoting was fair and a mandate.

( I was entitled to 2 votes in my household and did not receive ballot papers).

Plus you have the EFC marketing machine on your side.So no problem then.

To EVERYONE who believes Kirkby is a very, very bad decision then please find email info.

Send to as many people as you can so that our voice is heard.

Below is the list of e-mails.
I have sent the template from KEIOC ( I simply opened up the template then copied and pasted into an email

blearsh@parliament.uk

contactus@communities.gov.uk

gonwmailbox@gonw.gsi.gov.uk

michael.ashton@gonw.gsi.gov.uk

b.viner@independent.co.uk

boothg@parliament.uk

daveprentice@liverpoolecho.co.uk

neilhodgson@liverpoolecho.co.uk

sport@liverpoolecho.co.uk

sutcliffeg@parliament.uk

tony.livesey@bbc.co.uk

valwoan@liverpoolecho.co.uk

warren.bradley@liverpool.gov.uk

I could not find Andy Burnham?s email but his assistant is - CALVIN.MULLINGS@Culture.gsi.gov.uk

?GET UP, STAND UP ! STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHT ! DON?T GIVE UP THE FIGHT !?
Anthony Fielding
49   Posted 11/06/2008 at 18:10:35

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Adam C... Tom Hughes has not proved that a Goodison can be redeveloped! Granted his work is very impressive, but that's all it is.

There is no way the stadium he has designed will fit on our current footprint - end of- no way at all! There are no measurements in Tom's plans so they dont prove anything at all. The only thing that is possible is the new tier on the Park End stand, but what's the point, that doesn't address the fact that the rest of the stands need replacing.

New building and safety regulations mean that a new stadium of that size would not fit on that footprint. It was only a few years ago that the council told the club we couldn't increase the footprint!
Even if we could increase the footprint of the current site, it would cost the club about 3 times what we are paying for Kirkby.
Tom Hughes
50   Posted 11/06/2008 at 22:56:16

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Adam,
Look at KEIOC website in alternative sites section. Scale drawings of one option appear there. Plan views are placed on top of the club’s own site plans. I have full site plans for Goodison Park and cross sectional drawings of all existing stands. ANY measurements you want to know I can give you. Take your pick! Meanwhile your estimate of costing 3 times £78m for redevelopment is slightly puzzling since the scheme described above involves only building 2 additions to the current structures 10-15,000 seats. including 40 boxes and reroofing all sides. How can this cost £234m? Thats more than the construction costs for the emirates. There is no way that this method can cost more than having to build a whole new stadium. The whole enabling package and partnership is only going to pay for approximately one new stand in Kirkby (if that, the way things are going). We don’t need to replace all the stands at GP immediately. The centre-court at Wimbledon is as old as the Bullens, no-one is contemplating demolishing that.... it is being modernised! Our stands are as historic and iconic as that, and likewise can be enhanced! Ibrox has a good example of whta can be achieved.
Jay Harris
51   Posted 11/06/2008 at 23:27:31

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Adam
before you come on making stupid statements you should check the home page of this site where you will find detailed plans and costings of refurbishing GP.
David Wallbank
52   Posted 12/06/2008 at 01:20:47

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Jim Lloyd (reply)

To be honest your reply was kinda spot on, calling us two CAMPS. We are, and to answer your question, yes I would like to know if there was a better offer!!! BUT IT MUST BE BETTER!!! I don?t think it will be the end of our club if we move to Kirkby! Honest, I just think things will be different! Whats the worst that could happen? Its not like were paying for the lot? Also when we are there, there isn?t anything stopping us builkding on, or improving standards (asuming its a bag of shit that everyone in the no camp is predicting...I bet it will be better than Goodison hands down by a mile!) My post was put forward because I just think the kings dock was the answer to all our prays! At Kings Dock do you think we?d have two camps? I reckon we?d all be one!!!
Tom Hughes
53   Posted 12/06/2008 at 10:23:26

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Dave,
That’s one of the major points though! This is nothing like the KD. The location, the transport, the stadium design, the cost...... everything is much inferior at Kirkby than what was on offer there. For the same outlay secured over a more manageable period (as opposed to all at once at Kirkby) GP can match Kirkby for unobstructed views, can have bigger capacity (Kirkby is limited to 50,419), can keep all the history and preserve identity, keep the superior public transport and proximity to town, not need park and ride and take full advantage of new infrastructure planned for the new anfield. Kirkby will never be superior to GP for any of these factors!
Tony Williams
54   Posted 12/06/2008 at 13:34:02

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"Disloyal?

To what?

Greedy, self-serving, bullshitting businessmen?

Or maybe you think the people responsible more this move are not greedy and they are not bullshitters (in which case, you?re an even bigger easily-duped-mug than you appear)"


EJ, a question if I may?

If the site, which we I suspect most would have hoped for, in Wally Hall Park opened up and we managed to move there, would you still call the board "Greedy, self-serving, bullshitting businessmen"? (are there any other?)

Or would you applaud them, as it is an option that you like?

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