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COLUMNIST KEVIN SPARKE

Sentiment or business

By Shaun Sparke :  14/06/2008 :  Comments (125) :
On a wet spring day in 1966, my father queued with thousands of others alongside the proud walls of Goodison Park, in eager anticipation of securing his FA Cup Final ticket. It mattered not that he was drenched through and that he had come straight from a twelve-hour night shift because he was standing outside his spiritual home where he had spent many an hour cheering on his heroes.

It was inside this same ground that Dixie Dean once thrilled the Goodison faithful with his never-to-be-repeated goalscoring exploits. It was also here that Dixie took his last breath. It was later on in the summer of '66 that Goodison Park was to play host to a World Cup Semi-Final ? heady days indeed!

I attended my first game in 1972 and can recall vividly looking up at the old floodlight pylons that seemed to reach up into the clouds. I remember the assorted smells of coffee, Oxo drinks and numerous rather dodgy looking pies and sausage rolls. I heard men swear for probably the first time in my life and my dad telling me that I must have misheard what they said.

I can recall him jumping out of his seat when Joe Royle scored a late winner and wondered why he couldn?t always look this happy. He very rarely goes to Goodison Park nowadays; I took him to the Brann game and was so pleased that we managed to put on a bit of a show for him.

The look on his face as he gazed around the old stadium told a thousand stories. As I watched him gaze wistfully down to the pitch I could just imagine that he was recalling the days long ago when Alex Young baffled many a defender with his skill and guile. I have lost count of the many stories of past glories he has regaled to me. I never get tired of hearing them.

The memories he and thousands of others like him retain are probably rekindled and brought into focus whenever they come into sight of the old ground. This is an historic place, ok it may not be of national importance, but to those of us who actually care, Goodison Park will always retain a myriad of happy (and some not so happy) memories.

I have read many valid posts on here regarding the need for re-development of the old ground; some argue it is possible whilst others say it can?t be done or more chillingly say even if it can be done we simply can?t afford it!

I find the whole Kirkby situation to be such an abhorrent notion that it turns my stomach to think that those who we trust to run this club can?t come up with an alternative, other than moving out of our home into an underperforming socially deprived neighbouring borough, to a moderate stadium surrounded by shops.

I have not got the answers and can?t argue with sound economic figures against those who say that for financial reasons we have no choice but to leave Goodison Park. That is not my job, that is the job of the people that we put our trust in to do what is best for the club over the long-term.

I have heard the parrot-like statements repeated time and time again that if we want to move to the next level then we have to move to Kirkby. Sorry, but I will never be convinced that this is the best and only viable future for our club.

I would never dream of questioning the credentials of anybody who calls themselves an Evertonian. If you think that moving to Kirkby is the best option then who am I to say that you are wrong. I would just ask you to consider that, by offering your support to this proposed move, you will be condemning Goodison Park to a pile of rubble within a couple of years and it will cease to be our home forever!

The memories that my dad and possibly yours have will be diminished and will never hold the same meaning again. I don?t want that on my conscience... do you want it on yours?

I unashamedly admit that this piece is full of sentimental opinion, and some may argue that there is no room for sentiment in today?s cynical world. You may be right of course, but I would not trade all of your spreadsheets and cash-flow prediction benefits of moving to Kirkby for the look on my dad?s face when he looks around the old ground and remembers when the fans used to love this place and we were the envy of the rest of the country.

Somehow, I can?t ever envisage Kirkby being the envy of the country.

Reader Comments

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Michael Kenrick
1   Posted 14/06/2008 at 06:36:00

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Fantastic piece, Shaun. Goosebumbs and teary eyes... You capture exactly what is at stake.
Ste Kenny
2   Posted 14/06/2008 at 08:23:34

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Can you imagine how you would feel if you were going past Goodison after the move and there was a Sainsbury?s or a few newly built houses? The piece ?My Everton? sums up exactly how I feel, as does this.
Kevin Sparke
3   Posted 14/06/2008 at 08:50:49

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That’s how I feel Shaun. Very evocative.
Brendan O'Neill
4   Posted 14/06/2008 at 09:10:43

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This is the sort of reasoning and passion that anti DK people should be producing, not the mud slinging, offensive abuse that others provide.

My first visit to GP was in 1975 as a 5 yr old with my Dad who sadly has departed us just over 4 years ago.

A brilliant piece of evocative writing, Shaun.

I am pro Kirkby in the absence of anything else. It is a pragmatic stance, but if I and more importantly the board could be shown that an alternative exists for the same quality and cost, then I would change my opinion.

Anti-DK people ? take note of the tone of this piece and follow suit.

This is what we need, not Evertonians laying into fellow Evertonians.
Tom Hughes
5   Posted 14/06/2008 at 09:40:35

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Brendan,
When I first posted my opinion, together with scale drawings to back my argument, I received hate mail of some individuals, some even threatening violence because I had the temerity to question the club and a process that has since been found to be fundamantally flawed and full of untruths. You should be asking the club to produce the proof that this is the best option for the club. It is no-one else’s job to produce solutions, that is why they are in their positions and what they are paid for! This represents only what is good for Tesco with a stadium added as their enabler! The whole cross funding of the stadium charade can only muster sufficient funds for approximately one of the 4 stands at Kirkby, when it was supposed to cover the construction costs in total. We’ve been had! And that’s before you go into the whole transport strategy fiasco, loss of identity etc....... but in pure financial terms the bottom line is, if we can afford to fund 3 new stands at Kirkby, where it doesn’t even look like we can all get there efficiently..... then surely we can add one or 2 new stands at GP to help transform our true home in a place where we do know we can get to!
Ray Said
6   Posted 14/06/2008 at 10:31:22

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Great piece Shaun-home is where the heart is.
Ron Leith
7   Posted 14/06/2008 at 10:30:49

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So Arsenal had no history, Liverpool no history, Man City no history etc. EFC the only club who would rather chuck away their future for some rosy picture of the past. Bradford had a lovelly old stand that burnt down and killed somewhere in the region of 100 people. Ahh lets keep ourselves in the 20th century it was so much nicer than this nasty old 21st Century with 50,000 a week wages and Mega Billionaire foriegn owners. Sentiment is nice but it don?t buy you a decent footballer I am afraid
David Wallbank
8   Posted 14/06/2008 at 10:40:06

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Very nice romantic piece.

I would agree staying at Goodison if the game hadn?t moved on! Maybe if players were still getting paid £35 a week then there wouldn?t be a problem.

I too think that being in Kirkby we?ll never have green eyes look upon us, we?ll never be the envy of the country, but at least we won?t be an embarrassment.

I am glad your arl fella saw the game though, it's people like your dad who supported this club during times when football needed it, and started the traditions. But it?s down to us now to back the team and recreate the old time atmosphere and set new traditions for future Evertonians to inherit. Maybe we should be talking about how to get Goodison jumping again (as per Fiorentina and Chelsea last season).
Anthony Fielding
9   Posted 14/06/2008 at 11:02:24

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Yeah got to agree, nice piece Shaun.
What's a real shame about all this is the state of dis-repair that we find our beloved Goodison Park in nowadays. How does it go from being the finest stadium in the country, Wembly aside, to what it is now? For too long has the club just sat on its hands and done nothing, and now I fear it is too late for the old?gal.
Anthony Fielding
10   Posted 14/06/2008 at 11:45:37

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Tom....

.... can you tell me if there are new safety regulations regarding the width of concourses and width of the seating rows that have to be followed when building new stadia??? And if so, did you include such new regulations in your plans for a new Goodison, and at a guess how much it would cost present day to build the redeveloped Goodison?? Thanks
Tom Hughes
11   Posted 14/06/2008 at 12:08:49

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Anthony,
There are recommended guidelines for new stands contained in documents such as the "green guide." They are not legislation, though they can be enforced by local authorities when granting planning permission. This doesn’t always happen, with most new stadia not fully complying due to the cost of implimentation and effects on capacity etc. Plenty of Old Trafford, possibly all of Anfield and many others are not fully compliant. That said, this legislation is for new/proposed stands ONLY and not existing ones which generally are covered by decades of experience and safety certificates. There is no evidence that GP or any other number of existing stadia is threatened by such. Simon Inglis has stated such and he was editor for the current guide. The redevelopment concepts I have drawn up follow the guidelines in terms of sightlines, legroom etc. Concourse areas are increased dramatically by the extended footprint with the upper Bullens for instance increasing 4-5 times minimum for a capacity increase of approx 100%.
Joe Ludden
12   Posted 14/06/2008 at 12:38:02

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Great piece Shaun ? there?s many of us with similar tales. My Dad started going to GP in the 1930?s with his brothers. Over the seasons they moved from the Paddock to the Main Stand to the Upper Bullens as they could afford. Pops took me to my first game at GP in the 80s, and my bruv, sis and I have been coming up ever since. I say coming up, because Pops relocated to Birmingham after the war, and we?re all brummie Evertonians.

Skip to last season, I managed to persuade Pops to come up with me to the first game v Wigan. He hasn?t been to GP for years given his age and continued discontent with the current management of the club (they?ll always let you down he says). We parked up in Priory Road and walked up to GP. It took about an hour and a half because he took his time walking through Stanley Park, telling me and Ma how he and his brothers used to come up through here, little tales, smiles on his face as he remembered years and years of coming to GP from the 30s onwards..

I am so proud of Everton and GP, and for me seeing Pops re-live that was priceless. Not many places can provoke such emotion, hold such history, bring so many people together. But GP does it ? Everton does it. For me, they go hand in hand.

Of course this is all sentimental rubbish, and means only big things to those individuals it affects, but I?d prefer to spend the next 50 years at GP trying to be successful, than to have it overnight at Kirkby (which of course wouldn?t happen anyway). I'd prefer to have other fans try to mock me about GP in the years to come (crappy seats, crappy views, pillars everywhere ? all over-egged stuff!) than to have the redshyte claim the city as their own (I?m not even a scouser) ? in one of our old grounds too no less ? and see what was GP turned into a car park for the new Anfield.

I?m a Brummie, and I can tell you if Brum or the Villa had plans to relocate to outside of the boundary of this city, there would be riots. The respective owners / CEO would be ran out of town for even dreaming of such a concept.

My Dad?s last remaining brother died last month ? his funeral at Paddy?s wigwam littered with references to Everton, and times going to GP. That day will come to all of us, but some things can go on. Is it not our responsibility to provide for the next generations at the very least, as good as we have had it? Does anyone really believe that Kirkby can replace and improve on GP?

I don?t think even the most hardened yes voter agrees ? the argument is simply that GP cannot be redeveloped so there is no other choice. I don?t accept that ? notwithstanding the reports to suggest GP can be redeveloped, but even if it were true, we, as custodians of our club should make it happen. If they can stick robots on Mars, does anyone seriously believe that GP cannot be redeveloped?

It surely can?t be a question of money? not when we know how much Kirkby will cost us? When the money falls out of the game and we have straddled ourselves with £100m of debt how will we survive? Does anyone really think GP is so bad we need to leave the city to improve things? Are corporate boxes more important than the soul of this club and 116 years of history???

There will be no mention of Kirkby when my day finally arrives?

Alan Willo
13   Posted 14/06/2008 at 13:07:41

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Very nice post and we all can relate to this throughout our EFC upbringing. We had an outside loo until 1986; lots of memories but we have evolved. The difference is simple: in the past EFC had the money and the team to lead the way on and off the pitch. Today, well we could say we are 10/11th most wealthy club in the league so we can only do what our pocket allows and sadly it's very empty.

That is the simple fact of the matter: we don't have many choices becuase we don't have the money. Nobody would argue the fact that if we could take a £250 million uplift to GP then we would. As the famous film says "show me the money"... Life has moved on since then ? just look what we have, sky plus, dvd, laptops, wireless broadband, 42-in flat screen TV etc, etc.

When I and others were young, we only had 3 TV channels, even then my mum and dad said it was better then than now? Memories will be with you until the day you and I die, the new generation's memories will start at Kirkby as have Arsenal, LFC, Man City, Sunderland, Stoke, Boro, Portsmouth, Southampton, Leicester, Derby, Swansea, Hull, Darlington, Colchester, Coventry, Cardiff, Bolton, Wigan and Reading.

This situation is global, German & Dutch stadia have been rebuilt and even both the New York Yankees (Yankee Stadium) and Mets (Shea Stadium) will be demolished and replaced with new ones and by American standards probably only Boston have more history than them two.

I?m sorry but life moves on, stand still and you either die or fall away. Sadly, that is factual. COYB

Tom Hughes
14   Posted 14/06/2008 at 13:59:21

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Alan,

Most stadia are redeveloped

San Siro, Bernabeu, Nou camp, Old Trafford etc. Most of the German world cup stadia were redeveloped in situ too.

Arsenal moved around the corner, Sunderland moved closer to town as did Man City etc
Joe Ludden
15   Posted 14/06/2008 at 14:09:20

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Alan - The Yankees are building a brand new stadium directly across the road from the original one. They ain’t building it in LA. The new ground is also a lot better than the old one and incorporates alot of the old stadia in design and memorials. Kirkby is a medium quality stadium with a big Everton sign on it!!

We haven’t moved grounds in 116 years - so why now is it stand still and die when this hasn’t applied since 1892? There have been world wars, wall street crashes, black Wednesday, black Monday... and still no one said Everton must move ground or die. We haven’t died since 1892, or since the PL formed, so why now is 2008 different?
Jay Campbell
16   Posted 14/06/2008 at 16:34:20

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Kenwright has not got the club?s best interests at heart ? he?s got his own investment to protect. Some people are so blind and stupid I can?t believe it.

This situation has arisen and Goodison is now shite coz the idiots running our club have just sat on their arses for the last 15 years or so and done NOTHING!!!

Who has been on the board during that time??? I fucking wonder!!!

Mark OBrien
17   Posted 14/06/2008 at 17:48:32

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I’m in a quandry, I desperately want Everton to compete with the top four financially, yet I can’t bear the thought of moving to Kirkby.
This piece just confirms my sentimental views of Goodison.
If only we could attract the investment to rebuild Goodison rather than take the Tesco backhander to cheapside.
Neil Pearse
18   Posted 14/06/2008 at 19:01:40

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Jay, you really are contradicting yourself. If Kirkby is the complete and obvious financial disaster you believe it to be, then the value of Kenwright’s investment WILL GO DOWN if we move to Kirkby. So how on earth could be be "protecting" his investment by going there?

Or Kirkby will be succesful for Everton, and the value of his investment will indeed go up.

So which is it? It can’t be both.
Jay Harris
19   Posted 14/06/2008 at 19:02:45

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Alan Willo, Where do you guys dig out this horseshit? So now its going to cost £250 million to develop Goodison. Which lucky bag did you pluck that one from?

Experienced stadium engineers and Architects who have much greater knowledge than you or I say it can be redeveloped to a capacity of 55,000 as opposed to 50,401 (and corporate use for only 2/3 of the year) for a similar cost to Kirkby.

The stadium costs at Kirkby are actually £130 million its only the estimated retail enabling that reduces it to around £80 million so there?s nothing to stop GP revelopment incorporating commercial activities.
Trish Diamond
20   Posted 14/06/2008 at 19:45:56

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Fantastically well put - I felt choked to be honest. So many memories given up so cheaply by the custodians of our club - shameful really. But its not over till its over - keep the faith!
George Duffin
21   Posted 14/06/2008 at 20:28:51

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How much would it be to redevelop Goodison and how many people would put their money towards it? e.g 20,000 people donate £1000 each and there is £20mill - in return you get a seat named after you, or a name on a large plaque thanking everyone who helped Keep Everton in city. I know so many people will say it's up to the club, but then again they are doing such a fine job to date.
Jim Lloyd
22   Posted 14/06/2008 at 19:36:26

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Grand piece, Shaun and well complemented by Joe, they speak volumes.
Alan, if we’re skint how can we afford the £80 million for the stadium in Kirkby.
If we could redevelop Goodison, say one stand at a time, couldn’t we do it in our own time? We wouldn’t need to find £80 million all at once.
Didn’t Celtic redevelop their ground and didn’t they have a share issue to helpfund it? Couldn’t we? It doesn’t appear to be impossible and at least the club could discuss with the council, whether we could have some of the adjacent land. Isn’t it worth exploring what grants would be available to redevelop the area?
Instead, the club will not open talks with anyone while this exclusivity arrangement is on and we sale rudderless, down the Alt, to Kirkby.
Paul W. Byrne
23   Posted 14/06/2008 at 23:18:25

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I like a lot of other people have fond memories of Goodison Park. I held a season ticket for years before i moved to Canada in 1974. Every other year i come home and really look forward to going to Goodison Park with my old mates just like in the good old days. I know we will not go to Kirkby to any matches there. My honest opinion is that the board of directors should be FIRED if they cannot find a way to redevelop Goodison Park. Like the one guy said we can put a man on the moon but cannot redevelop Goodison Park. NOT.

Paul B.
James Connolly
24   Posted 14/06/2008 at 23:25:02

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Nice piece Shaun. I first went to Goodison as a five year old back in 1977. I can still recall the awe I felt as the green of the pitch flooded my vision for the first time, the smell of cigar smoke, and the noise coming from the crowd.
In the mid-eighties I had my young boys card and got into the the ground for just £1.30. I saw Howards great team win two leagues. I witnessed the bad times in the nineties and I’ve embraced the Moyes’s era.

Goodison holds so many memories, too many to mention.

I voted ’YES’ to Kirkby. I’ve fought with my heart and my head so many times over this. But it all boiled down to one question. Should Everton preserve it’s past, or secure it’s future?

Jeff Spiers
25   Posted 15/06/2008 at 07:03:49

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The district of Everton goes back before the City was even born. We have streets, roads, brows,terraces etc. Then a football club was formed, Everton FC. Sentimental tosh I hear some of you say.WE ARE THE HEART AND SOUL of this city. I fuckin love EFC.
Arthur Jones
26   Posted 15/06/2008 at 07:38:53

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A great article Shaun, my sentiments entirely. I even e.mailed Everton with a similar post , Ian Ross replied saying "yes but Goodison Park is crumbling "of course he never offered any proof! Everton and Goodison are a mutually exclusive item for me, and as you say the "powers that be" should have moved heaven and earth to enable us to stay. Next year, when the Everton Collection is up and running will be the time that it will hit us most, if we are forced to move. We?ll have this magnificent, unique, historical collection and the place where the history was made MIGHT NOT EXIST anymore ? how tragically ironic !
Jay Campbell
27   Posted 15/06/2008 at 11:25:45

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Neil Pearse I’ll bet any money he’ll be away around a year or so after Kirkby carrying his wallet on a hod.

Wyness will be the same that’s why they are pushing so hard for this move it’s because what’s in it for them not Everton Football Club.
Rory Buchanan
28   Posted 15/06/2008 at 14:21:15

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To me, James Connolly just summed everything up in one sentence/question. I’ll echo it.

Should Everton preserve it?s past, or secure it?s future?
Tom Hughes
29   Posted 15/06/2008 at 14:58:12

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Does securing its future mean gambling on a mid-level stadium that is no longer costing nothing, in a non descript location that transport planners are struggling to show is even viable, that required a whole series of fabrications to deny all alternatives and generate any support for it, deserting our heritage, compromising our identity, handing over the whole city to our biggest rivals and that has split the fanbase with many saying they will no longer go?

I voted NO, and used both my head and my heart! What people voted YES for, no longer exists!
Joe Ludden
30   Posted 15/06/2008 at 16:10:18

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"Should Everton preserve it?s past, or secure it?s future?"

Why can’t we do both, at Goodison Park? Bleating out a lovely soundbite like that is nothing. There’s no substance. Preserving our future does not miraculously = Kirkby. That’s propaganda (originated from Bully). Dear God, if it was true, then Everton FC would die a death if it wasn?t for Tesco, because without Tesco, there is no Kirkby. Do so called Evertonians really believe this great club of ours is dead in the water and our only shot, our one time only shot at staying alive is a supermarket? If Tesco had never wanted to build a new store in Kirkby, would we now be on the brink going out of business???? Of course not.
James Connolly
31   Posted 15/06/2008 at 17:05:00

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"Should Everton preserve it?s past, or secure it?s future?"

Joe, you asked the question why can’t we do it at Goodison? I fully believe without David Moyes being at this club, with his shrewd signings and management, then Everton could have possibly slipped out of the Premier league by now. That is what worries me. At the moment the only capital/collateral Everton have is David Moyes and the team he has built.

Goodison Park does not generate money and I don’t believe even a redeveloped Goodison Park would either. The corporate boys and sponsorship deals would amost always head in the direction of the new anfield even over a redeveloped Goodison.

I fully believe if Everton stay were they are then within a decade we will have been left behind, not only by Liverpool but by other clubs as well who haven’t a fraction of our great history.

The situation requires action now, not later and Kirkby is the only offer on the table. I don’t believe we are selling out to Tesco at all. I believe Everton can benefit hugely from this partnership. And the new stadium and location are 100% better than what we currently have.

If somebody came up with a solution to have a share issue to raise the funds to build a new iconic stadium in Walton Hall Park, then I would be one of the first to endorse it. But realistically, and being realistic is the crucial word, would that happen, and if so, how quickly?

I fully understand the issue of not wanting to go to Kirkby. I love Goodison like a second home.

Give me a good alternative to Kirkby and I would change my vote.

For me fellow blues, Everton’s future is more important than Evertons past.
Joe Ludden
32   Posted 15/06/2008 at 19:08:25

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James, no new questions in your post, and the answers you want have been posted on this site ad infinitum in the past. Mr Tom Hughes and others have explained in depth how GP CAN be redeveloped.

James, one question: If Tesco hadn’t decided to build a new superstore in Kirkby, where we would Everton be today, tomorrow, in 10 years time? What would be plan "A" given Kirkby had never been dreamt up? Perhaps you could address that, hypothetically, just for fun?

PS. Hardly describe Kroldrup, Shandy, McBadden, Biffa etc as a shrewd signings.... The likes of Cahill and Lescott were well documented before we went in for them too.
Arthur Jones
33   Posted 15/06/2008 at 19:09:23

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"The future is more important than the past"?? Without our past or history, we wouldn?t have a present, never mind a future!

It shouldn?t be down to fans to provide the alternatives, it's the job of the board and the paid CEO to do that. If the Destination Kirkby project is ?called in? and the plans collapse, they?ve already shot themselves in the foot by saying there?s no alternative . Why haven?t contingency plans been made to cover this? Kirkby town centre will still be regenerated without Everton, Tesco own the land it won?t be as big as if we were there but tesco will have plans ready. Tom Hughes has plans already drawn up to refurbish Goodison but Everton FC haven?t!!!! I thought it was essential business practice to cover every eventuality ... Obviously not!
Tom Hughes
34   Posted 15/06/2008 at 20:45:14

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James,
You say that you think that the corporates will always head to the new anfield ahead of a redeveloped GP..... Then what chance have we got for them heading out to Kirkby, 8 miles away from Liverpool’s business district? Why even go to Kirkby if those boxes are not required in your opinion. Capacity can readily be increased where we are, and for a fraction of the cost of building at least 3 of the 4 stands at Kirkby, which is what we are doing! Goodison can be redeveloped to more than match Kirkby. It can be done in affordable phases to allow us to judge capacity/exec box demand. This can never be done at Kirkby where we are going straight for 50,000 new seats which we may not need. When the club was first unveiling the proposals they estimated that it would require mid 40’s average to break even.... what now with the inflated costs? High 40’s? There are options, but the club have avoided them at every turn, that policy alone should worry us.
Jim Lloyd
35   Posted 15/06/2008 at 22:37:31

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James, You say that "the only collateral is David Moyes and theteam he has built." How then can we find the £80 million that this stadium is going to cost us.
You also say that if someone could come up with the solution for a share issue to build a stadium in WHP, you’d be first in line.
Well James, don’t you think there are thousands of other blues just waiting to see if the club will give us all reason to hope, and actually show some leadership and call for a share issue. Earlier on in this debate, Georgew posited this very idea. 20000 blues at a thousand£ss each. That’s at least one stand paid for. If you open it up to all blues, near and far, I don’t think we would be far short of the required amount necessary to rebuild Goodison.
We could also then, live up to the battle cry that David Moyes saw when he first came here. We could then truely call ourselves "The Peoples Club"
Mr Kenwright, are you going to do something to try and keep this club in Liverpool and at Goodison Park. Or is this too much to ask of you to just organise the bloody greatest show of solidarity of fans throughout England?
We’re waiting, you tell us why it can’t be done.
Jim Lloyd
36   Posted 15/06/2008 at 23:09:45

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Jeff Spiers,
Bloody good post and bloody right mate.Everton was here over a thousand years ago. We are one of the oldest parts of this city. God forbid that we leave it to our bastard offspring.
Bob Turner
37   Posted 16/06/2008 at 06:07:26

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Joe,

Just for fun, perhaps you can address this question (I have asked it a couple of times, and indeed Neil Pearse raised the same question, worded differently in the above thread, too, but no-one seems to have the answer):





1. KW is on a big bonus to "force" through a move to Kirkby
2. BK, as major shareholder, is in effect funding said bonus
3. BK is only concerned about the money in his wallet
4. There is a well documented (well, on here, anyway) alternative which allows redevelopment of GP for less money, less cost, and is more profitable for Everton (and therefore BK)
5. BK is choosing the option of moving to Kirkby, which supposedly is more expensive, more risky and less profitable because.......??



PS How much did we buy/sell McFadden for? And if Cahill/Lescott were so well documented, how come they didn’t end up elsewhere? How come Crystal Palace were the only other team in for Cahill (who then baulked at paying the agent’s fees of c£300k)?
Alan Willo
38   Posted 16/06/2008 at 07:50:28

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Sorry, but did I mention Kirkby in my reply? No I said moving. Jay my figure was purely hypothetical about GP I and others have no idea what it would cost. Tom, thanks for your reply but again all these responses prove to me that this debate is only focused around location. There is nothing too wrong about the design or the finance package so why have KEIOC and LCC not offered the same terms inside the City with Tesco? This is why I struggle to understand the path the No?s have taken. We had EFC and Tesco committed to do business and providing we could offer Tesco a commercial viable site then this whole operation could have been re-located. The exclusivity deal was not worth the paper it was written on before you all come back, it could have easily let itself run out. This is why the majority of fans have not joined the bandwagon, the direction has all been wrong. The people who had the power to do it were LCC, and we chose to attack our own board! KEIOC have been the patsy of LCC. I voted Yes as I?m sure you?re all aware but if this direction was taken I believe ?common sense? would have prevailed. LCC have never had the political will to stand up to KBC and the sad thing about it is, KBC knew this from the beginning. COYB
Joe Ludden
39   Posted 16/06/2008 at 08:23:54

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Bob mate, you didn?t ask me a question there did you?? Just some bullet points which again, are not new.

Regards Moyes (though this is not relevant to this thread) it?s a good job McBadden went for more than we bought him, because that offset the Kroldrup debacle (factor in McBadden?s salary for the last 4 odd years too and we aint making a profit). Regards Lescott and Cahill ? they were well documented and Moyes had the balls to go for them whilst others (inc. Wenger) were mulling them over. That?s a positive for Moyes ? but he didn?t magic these players up himself ? they were all over the media prior to us going for them (just like Ramsay). Some people think that if Moyes laid his hands on their dead pet cat, it would come back to life. Reality check is required.

Bob one more question for you on the Moyes topic (then leave it because this thread is about GP): Why, when Moyes has one year left on his contract, was his name not bounded around Man Shitteh and Stamford Bridge over the last few weeks?
Colin Grierson
40   Posted 16/06/2008 at 09:53:03

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A great piece Shaun. The emotional and sentimental aspects of this proposal deserve to be given their rightful place in this debate. I have read too many articles and posts which seek to take the sentiment out of this move!?I can?t for the life of me see anything other than sentiment involved as this is about supporting a football club!

However, the memories you speak of in your article; the joy that you describe, can possibly be found elsewhere. NOT in Kirkby though and not in an off the shelf stadium. Like you mate, I don?t have the financial information available to back up any rhetoric I may wish to spout. I dont want it either to be honest. Like you say that is fore the ?Guardians? of our great club to sort out. If the move was an inspirational one where the backing of the fans was unanimous then we could move forward.

SADLY, I dont think that even the most ardent supporter of the Kirkby move would describe the proposed Kirkby move as inspirational. It would be a mediocre stadium and it may as well be on Mars as far as I am concerned cos its WAY too far from the City centre and WAY too far from GP.

Of course the future is important but what is most important is the FULL backing of the supporters. Lets make no bones about it WE are Everton FC! Without us there is no revenue, no atmosphere and certainly no future. The team has a history because it has always had great support. Take the support away from any club and you will lose that club. BK is gambling with the future of our club.

For those of you who are considering that the future may be more important than our history. You may be right. The future may condemn this club to be nothing but history. THAT surely is of paramount importance. We may only be left with the history. At least that is what a significant amount of our supporters believe. How many Yes voters would still vote Yes now? I wonder?

I have posted about this issue on many occasions but I will not get involved in the debate on a structural or financial level because I dont have the expertise. I AM an Evertonian though and I do have a great passion for the club so I unashamedly urge those of you who I feel are missing the point with your financial projections and logistical reports etc to take a step back and examine what really matters.

Tom Hughes
41   Posted 16/06/2008 at 10:19:09

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Alan,
"I and others have no idea what it would cost."

There are lots of benchmarks to estimate costs from. Several publications such as stadia, panstadia, stadium engineering etc give costing estimates for stadia. For the quick appraisal I mentioned I used mid-top end figures for expanding existing stands from these. There is always potential additional construction costs for complexities particular to a given format (ie single tier as opposed to multi-tier, roof construction type etc), hence the reason for the Kirkby design?s basic 4 stand configuration.... complex corners can be expensive!

"Tom, thanks for your reply but again all these responses prove to me that this debate is only focused around location."

Location, location, location as they say. Footy club support is essentially tribal and therefore territorial too, so location is always going to play a part both emotionally and culturally in terms of identity etc. However, more importantly stadia cannot be just located anywhere. Their logistical dynamics require strong mass public transit capacities. Kirkby has not got this hence the multiple failure of the transport plan to date. Cars alone cannot shift the numbers required, nor should it be desirable for them to do so in this greener era. An edge-of-town location served by a handful of traffic lanes may suit the needs of a retail park with constant drip fed flow of customers, however a football ground?s access and egress demands are completely opposite to this with tens of thousands arriving and leaving in small time windows. Only Central sites in most British cities possess the infrasructure to cope with these rush hr type characteristics. There is no plan to make Kirkby anything like as accessible or well-served as central Liverpool.

"There is nothing too wrong about the design or the finance package so why have KEIOC and LCC not offered the same terms inside the City with Tesco?"

The Design is basic and utilitarian, mid-level even, and has received a bit of a bashing on a architectural/construction website when compared to the other proposed new stadium designs doing the rounds at the moment. The viewing distances are as big as they can be for the capacity, and it is featureless flat-pack off-the-shelf design. As regards the rest....... First of all KEIOC is a group of Evertonians campaigning in their spare time. They don?t own any land. LCC have NEVER been approached by the club with a view to expanding the footprint or regarding ANY other site. I have spoken to people in the planning Dept, and looked in the archives. EVERYONE can..... There are no applications nor informal approaches recorded in years. LCC aren?t here just for EFC?s benefit they have a whole city to run and are involved in the biggest redevelopment projects in Europe. The heads of both parties in the council and the head of planning are ALL Everton season ticket holders, they have all asked the club about what ways they can help only to be ignored or offered lip service. Renowned architect Trevor Skempton offered to assist also at the last AGM, when BK himself said in front of hundreds of shareholders that he would listen to his ideas..... Trevor?s still waiting!
The myths regarding LCC?s dealings with the club are just a smokescreen to reinforce a Kirkby scheme which cannot stand up to any scrutiny. None of the Kirkby promises are still valid! None of the finances, the design, the transport realities match the criteria laid down at the vote yet people are still harping on about LCC?s involvement or lack of. How convenient KD is forgotten, who offered that opportunity?
Paul Lally
42   Posted 16/06/2008 at 12:07:32

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Goodison gone - club shop moved -

ALL TRACES OF EVERTON REMOVED FROM CITY OF LIVERPOOL

Yes voters, you have had your ballot, which you keep quoting was fair and a mandate.
Plus you have the EFC marketing machine on your side.So no problem then.

To EVERYONE who believes Kirkby is a very, very bad decision then please find email info.

Send to as many people as you can so that our voice is heard.

Below is the list of e-mails.
I have sent the ’Call in’ template from KEIOC ( I simply opened up the template then copied and pasted into an email)
http://www.keioc.net/uploads/files/GONW-Template-Letter.doc

blearsh@parliament.uk

contactus@communities.gov.uk

gonwmailbox@gonw.gsi.gov.uk

michael.ashton@gonw.gsi.gov.uk

b.viner@independent.co.uk

boothg@parliament.uk

daveprentice@liverpoolecho.co.uk

neilhodgson@liverpoolecho.co.uk

sport@liverpoolecho.co.uk

sutcliffeg@parliament.uk

tony.livesey@bbc.co.uk

valwoan@liverpoolecho.co.uk

warren.bradley@liverpool.gov.uk

I could not find Andy Burnham?s email but his assistant is - CALVIN.MULLINGS@Culture.gsi.gov.uk

?GET UP, STAND UP ! STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHT ! DON?T GIVE UP THE FIGHT !?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=oUgdK3C-2GY
EJ Ruane
43   Posted 16/06/2008 at 11:14:54

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Agree Shaun - great piece.

One thing that I think that has not been explored (because it would take imagination) is this.

In 10 years time, in the ’premier’ League, there will almost certainly not be anything but ’new grounds’.

To me it appears a kind of relentless pressure seems to have built from nowhere in particular.

A pressure that’s had chairmen, directors and many supporters, all over the country (unthinkingly in my view) chanting "new ground, new ground, new.." in the same way as the residents of Springfield chanted ’Monorail’

Everton of course, can’t do nothing forever, but it is a fact that they don’t (as many suggest) have to do anything by this Friday morning at 11.37.

There is no problem right now with the structure, the pitch works, there are 41,000 seats so our 36,000 average can be accommodated, we own GP and...that’s it.

And If we hang fire for a while, and use a bit of imagination, we could be in a position where we’re soon the only team in the PL offering the authentic ’real football’ experience, in a real football stadium’...type thing.

A real point of difference.

Something that clever marketing persons could possibly exploit (nb: MUST be clever - not the witless dolts currently in charge of our LACK of marketing).

Rather than following Coventry and Bolton, I believe if a bit more original thought went into it, we could have something unique in a few years.

Maybe with the France Museum attached?

Do I know this would work or create extra interest or revenue?

No...Because I’m not an expert.

But neither is the hopeless tub of guts currently making the decisions.

Any experts who have put forward opinions about Goodison/Kirkby, contrary to what the ’board’ think, have had those opinions shamelessly ignored.

And why is that crazy?

Well, if you were having an operation, you wouldn’t let Bully Beef’s opinions override the surgeons...would you?

For some, it seems the answer to that is ’Er..yes!’
Bob Turner
44   Posted 16/06/2008 at 12:43:23

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Joe, I’ll answer yours when you answer mine ;-)

For the sake of clarity, the question was thus:

BK is choosing the option of moving to Kirkby, which supposedly is more expensive, more risky and less profitable because.......??



Incidentally, I thought Marcus Bent’s departure for about £1.5m more than we paid covered the loss of Kroldrup, but then how far back do we go?? If you’re going to factor in McFadden’s salary, fair enough, so I’ll factor in the goal he scored against Charlton, which was pretty instrumental in qualifying for Europe.

Anyway, since you asked nicely, I’ll try to answer your question - I don’t know..... (but would guess it’s because he’s going to sign one for us - eventually!)

PS I wish you’d told me about the dead cat routine before, my cat died last September, and I was gutted - too late now, though, I’ve had her cremated, and even the Moyesiah isn’t that good!!)
Alan Wiilo
45   Posted 16/06/2008 at 13:10:08

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Thanks Tom, again very good response but I feel you lack concrete fact. Stadium design is subjective and always will be and is limited to a budget. GP has not been given a once over since the 2000 report so I would expect that the cost would be far higher and I believe that is agreed by most parties. As you seem to be an expert on these matters then tell me how we would get planning authorization for all of the redevelopments. How would you bridge the gap (in monetary terms) for reduced capacity over the build, lost revenue, Sale of GP land, naming rights to stadium, no housing on Belfield and no commercial sponsor? Transport, this subject always makes me smile. Why when we are based in L4 and surrounded by housing plus a parking exclusion that people seem to think that Kirkby will be a disaster, your mean like Walton is? Location, I agree it could be better. LCC, yes KD will go down with all fans as a massive missed opportunity, I agree. Sadly we didn?t have the money so again the poor purse is to blame. LCC have been asked on several occasions about Walton Park, Bradley said ?Two wrongs don?t make a right? referring to LFC in SP. Why not put DK project in the middle of WP? No, we get offered the loop and long lane. Seems clear to me if they wanted EFC to stay they could have tried a lot harder and frankly they didn?t. KEIOC, I often have a go at them because I went to the meeting when LCC attended at it was a complete embarrassment, it was about kicking EFC ltd but not offering any firm clear lines to take them on in a positive manner. I respect them because they are Evertonians 100%, but I feel they have been led down the wrong path, conveniently by LCC. COYB
Joe Ludden
46   Posted 16/06/2008 at 17:23:17

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Bob, oki dokes, I?ll take a stab at your question, but how anyone can get inside the mind of BK is beyond me ? nature abhors a vacuum afterall?

I believe BK prefers the Kirkby option because he will receive some sort of cash bonus ? as will all the board - for going ahead with it. More than that, I think BK wants out and believes that the best way to maximise profits on his, erm zero initial investment (didn?t he borrow against the club to buy us out?) is to move us to a brand new build which would make the club more attractive to an ignorant and probably foreign investor.

I?d like to throw your question right back at you. Why is BK doing this when it is possible to redevelop GP? We all know that if 50,000 seats is what?s required, a new park end stand would cover that. Everything else with GP can be fixed and updated in phases. IMHO there?s nothing wrong with GP anyway!

You cremated your cat? My cat came back to life without Moysie ? he went missing one Palm Sunday, found him dead on the road on the Thursday, buried the poor blighter, then he turned up on Easter Sunday skinny, but well ? totally true. Someone with a remarkably similar looking cat to mine will never know that their moggy is buried in my back garden. We call him the unknown soldier. Over to Moyes?
EJ Ruane
47   Posted 16/06/2008 at 17:01:05

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Alan you ’ask’..

"Transport, this subject always makes me smile. Why when we are based in L4 and surrounded by housing plus a parking exclusion that people seem to think that Kirkby will be a disaster, your mean like Walton is?"

Well let me tell you, it doesn’t make you ’smile’ as wide as me.

And your over-dramatic use of ’parking exclusion’ cuts no ice either.

Know why?

Coz everyone KNOWS what getting to and from Goodison is like (ie: not perfect, but not the torture you suggest).

And whatever it’s like, 35-40,000 regularly do it, so not exactly the rack is it.

I mean after a game, I come out of the ground, walk down priory road and....actually I’m not giving away EXACTLY where I park, but the walk and the drive has me back in Lee Park around 5.40 ish.

Would I prefer 5.15?

Of course, but it’s hardly Journey to the centre of the earth (and listening to people phoning in and saying "It’s Benitez...ee juss doesn’t know iz best team" helps the time fly).

Plus I understand and accept it’s football not ballet and feel it’s a small price to pay to stay where we are (AT HOME!)

The important point-of-difference to Kirkby travel-wise though, is that whatever the travel faults with Goodison (and like EVERY ground it has them) supporters arrive at the ground from ALL areas of the city (and at ALL sides of the ground).

This will NOT be the case at Kirkby.

Fact: The majority of supporters arriving at Kirkby will do so from the same direction and will leave the same way..AT THE SAME TIME!

Now I have obviously not been to the new ground in Kirkby because it doesn’t (and hopefully never wiil) exist, but I have been to Bolton and that was horrible.

We sat on the coach, next to the ground for 20 mins crawling along a foot at a time until everyone lost their rag and jumped off.

And this was NOT everyone arriving from one direction - as far as we could make out, there were three ways.

I mean FFS, did you not feel even the slightest unease at the mention of 1000 bikes?

Even when everyone had a bike, I don’t remember anyone going to the match on one.

I could understand if these were silly rumours, invented to discredit and put people off the venture, but KNOWSLEY said 1000 car spaces - no more. KNOWSLEY said 4 trains an hour - no more (and no extra carriages!).

So if you’re not one of the lucky 1000, where do you park in Kirkby?

The Tesco car-park perhaps (3000 spaces).

Well ok...but it’s a £100 fine if you’re gripped.

Where else?

You think the residents away from the ground in Kirkby WON’T have a ’parking exclusion’?

From many happy with this move, we who despise the idea keep hearing ’be realistic’

Sorry but it has to be said - the fucking NERVE!

The transport suggested for getting to and from Kirkby, is possibly the most ludicrous, hair-brained, half baked bollocks I’ve ever heard.


Tom Hughes
48   Posted 16/06/2008 at 16:19:03

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Alan,

Only Goodison Park is a concrete fact, it exists and is real. The kirkby proposal aren’t and no longer even resemble the original. Design quality of anything isn’t necessarily subjective, there are several yardsticks and parameters, viewing quality, viewing distances, acoustics, the variation and quality of viewing options (Upstairs downstairs, corner areas). Anciliaries such as concourse areas, lounges and function suites, circulation areas for access and egress etc. Transport networks and links etc.... Real measurements to judge function before you get to aesthetics of form. Which the independent watchdog CABE ripped into pretty strongly, and knowsley’s own consultants reaffirmed with their own criticisms.

You’re right GP hasn’t been assessed fully for years. Therefore how can the club profess to having exhausted ALL the options when they haven’t this one? This should have been the first port of call..... They haven’t even asked LCC for assistance regarding any necessary expansion. In otherwords we are being moved before they have any idea about the possibilities at GP.... does that make sense?

"tell me how we would get planning authorization for all of the redevelopments."

It helps if you at least ask the planning office. EFC haven’t

"How would you bridge the gap (in monetary terms) for reduced capacity over the build, lost revenue,"

Old Trafford recently added 7,000 seats to the corner sections without any loss in capacity, before that they added upper tiers to both ends also without loss. The same can be done at GP, or even a whole new stand can be erected with bottom tier operational within a close season as achieved by AFL at Ipswich with upper tier following after as also happened at Whitehart Lane, in which case loss of capacity only occurs when the replacement lower tier is smaller than the stand being replaced. This need not happen at say the Park end which only currently hold 6,000. The whole partnership deal with Tesco/knowsley is only going to fund the land and approximately one of the stands at Kirkby, so where is the massive monetary benefit? We already have over 40,000 seats in one of the most historic stadia in the world why the desperation?


"Transport, this subject always makes me smile. Why when we are based in L4 and surrounded by housing plus a parking exclusion that people seem to think that Kirkby will be a disaster"

Simply compare the number of traffic lanes serving both districts from all parts of Liverpool and you will see there is no comparison. Likewise the Public transport for Walton is many times that of Kirkby and can be fully utilised in both directions as opposed to at end-of-the-line Kirkby with the overwhelming majority travelling the same limited routes in the same direction. Centrality effectively doubles road and public transport capacities, which are already much greater nearer to the city-centre. Also compare the number of districts with direct bus/train services to Kirkby as opposed to Walton, No South Liverpool and hardly any North Liverpool/ Sefton districts and NO Wirral districts have any direct links at all, again further increasing inconvenience. Kirkby will be almost entirely a traffic exclusion zone as promised to the local residents by KBMC, most car parks being well over half a mile from the site some much further, and mostly not in Kirkby at all. Remember, GP doesn’t require a park and ride scheme, and even if it did it would be much better situated to utilise sustainable bus/train services that already exist, not ones drafted in that Merseytravel say cannot be found in the region. No-one would say Kirkby could match Walton and certainly not the Loop for mass people movement. There is no comparison!


"LCC, yes KD will go down with all fans as a massive missed opportunity, I agree. Sadly we didn?t have the money so again the poor purse is to blame."

This money was supposed to be ring fenced, and was only of the order of £30m. Why did we pretend for all those months that we had the money? Why did we even enter the competition to secure the site if we couldn’t raise the price of one good player to get a real state of the art stadium on a really prestigous site? I think the club’s politics had far more to do with it than such a small amount.

"LCC have been asked on several occasions about Walton Park, Bradley said ?Two wrongs don?t make a right?

Who has asked him apart from a few blues at a KEIOC meeting? The club certainly haven’t. The owners of Sainsbury’s asked the club before WB’s comments and got the same cold-shoulder that Bestway and LCC got. Why haven’t the club asked for this to be followed up on to challenge LCC? And the Loop too? Get all the figures on the table! Why didn’t they commision a design competition for redevelopment too with costings with a set limit to match Kirkby’s etc? The obvious answer is they didn’t want anything to compare with Kirkby because they certainly wouldn’t have got anyone voting for it. This thing about LCC not trying harder I really don’t get, nor leading anyone astray, When has this happened? They offered to put a dedicated planning team together to push the Loop development together with Bestway and world leading stadium designers HOK, the club said no thanks, see Malcolm Carters article on TW. They offered to sit down with the club and look at planning issues for redevelopment of GP, again the club said no thanks...... Why any company would want to kill any option is beyond me but again points to an ilconceived exclusivity agreement? No-one enters exclusivity before they have the options fully assessed, that’s as fundamentally wrong as letting KD collapse for want of a meagre £30m.... so no change there then!
Bob Turner
49   Posted 16/06/2008 at 18:33:59

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Joe

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at your cat story ;-)
As for the move or develop GP engima, what you’re basically saying is that an investor (probably foreign) will get carried away by the shiny new stadium, and overlook basic fundamentals like cash flow, debt and profitability. I’m not convinced, but I guess we’ll find out either way when/if we move.

I’m off to see if I can find some poorly animals that need some laying on of hands from DM to make them feel better.... then you might truly believe!
Joe Ludden
50   Posted 16/06/2008 at 19:31:31

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Not quite Bob, I’m saying that’s what I’m guessing BK is thinking... when I say "thinking"...

Old Duncan the cat is still doing fine - so feel free to laugh not cry!
Alan Willo
51   Posted 17/06/2008 at 07:44:57

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Cheers Tom, probably the best argument I have seen on this site thank you. I have to differ on several points mainly cost, again no reference to finance. Also, you have a blind faith in LCC, I don?t. They knew about the WP option and kept it confidential. I don?t think you can compare EFC with MUFC on simple observation that we are on 3 sides surrounded by terraced housing. The only space available is sadly behind the PE, this adds to the problem because the PE only needs an upper tier. Main Stand, how do we remove the obstructed views? Providing we can do that then GS and BR are complete demolishing jobs and the footprint too small because of the housing, it doesn?t warrant the cost surly? I?m told when you build new Stadium then the planning and design rules meet new criteria, does this apply with part new builds? On one of the options put forward in the Kings Dock vote they looked at turning the stadium around slightly but this meant possible loss of housing and GS school, this is costly and subject to the mine field of the local planning department consequently causing delays, time and money. I think the obstacles are there for all too see staying at GP but the main stumbling block is it has to be self financing and sadly I think that is the main reason it is not workable. If we had money we could certainly do it, unfortunately we don?t so we have to piggy back another investor. COYB
Paul OHanlon
52   Posted 17/06/2008 at 08:35:16

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Great article Shaun, here’s hoping my children are able to take me back to Goodison in many years to come in the same way you took your dad. The season only finished a month ago and I’m missing the old lady already!
Andy White
53   Posted 17/06/2008 at 08:28:45

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Kirkby isn?t Liverpool? Maybe according to some artificial boundary set years ago but to pretty much anyone who has ever been there Kirkby is totally part of Liverpool.

Are Aintree races not part of Liverpool tradition? Should Liverpool Airport be called Garston Airport as it?s just over 6 miles from the city centre? Is Everton not a local team to Kirkbyites? Does the postcode not start with L? The phone number with 0151? Is the address not "Kirkby, Liverpool"

If the plan was to move to another city then I?d be kicking off louder than anyone but I don?t quite get this one?
EJ Ruane
54   Posted 17/06/2008 at 09:45:47

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Andy, if they want to call the Airport ?Garston Airport? - fine with me.

The difference is (and the reason your comparison doesn?t work) nobody?s talking about MOVING the bleeding airport.

If Everton Football Club stay?s where it is, for me personally, YOU can call it whatever the flip you want (Garston Airport FC for all I care!).

Also, how come on this issue, for all the yes-men, all boundries are ?artificial??

What does this actually mean?

Is this boundary more artificial than the boundry between say Lancashire and Yorkshire?

Do you recognize ANY boundary?

Do you believe Canada, The U.S and Mexico is really one big country? (only a matter of scale!)

Do you think you have to put up a razor-wire fence before it?s a ?real? boundary.

Coz there?s loads of scousers in Skem, would that be ok with you? (actually... don?t answer that!)

As I?ve said before, it?s not about where Evertonians live, it?s about where Everton FC lives.
Tom Hughes
55   Posted 17/06/2008 at 10:19:37

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Alan,
To be honest I gave "ballpark" figures for the type of redevelopment I described previously based on costings examples in Stadium construction journals etc. This was simply by way of example to illustrate the fact there are ALWAYS options..... which instantly contradicts the club?s opening gambit that there is "NO PLAN B". This was the first thing that hit me, since it shouts "hard sell", which shouldn?t be necessary for any "deal of the century" which should invite comparison, not shun it. That has never happened with Kirkby. As regards finances, again where are the finances coming from for our costs that have grown to £78m, and will grow further following the reduction in retail cross funding? What knowledge did any yes-voter have of that at the vote? It was supposed to cost us practically nothing!!! What if it gets called in? Where?s the contingency for this further elevated cost? The comparison with ManU was one example of many I could have used to demonstrate that capacity need not be adversely affected by or during redevelopment, if at all. Like I said, even Ipswich managed this! Spurs added upper tiers to their end stands also without reducing capacity as did Chelsea and a whole host of others.

The city planners have seen drawings for redevelopment and are not a bit averse to the prospect of bridging Bullens Rd for instance. There are only 2 streets abutting this side with the effect in terms of demolitions being minimal. Don?t forget 70 homes, a care home and an entire school are making way for the Kirkby scheme. This would be a tiny fraction of that disturbance, not to mention the history that is being preserved and built upon. The city planners and Trevor Skempton also believe the space at the rear of the Park end could sustain a large enabling project to help cover the costs of redevelopment. It?s a prime location on a main arterial road and overlooking a soon to be restored victorian park and just 2 miles from the city centre, it has potential for such, and almost unlimited planning scope. This would also be a direct cross funding on the club?s land as opposed to a partial dividend elsewhere!

As far as obstructed views go. The majority on the Mainstand side can be erradicated by re-roofing, meaning that the entire Top Balcony and most of the mainstand would be fully clear. Likewise, with the upper Bullens and upper Gwladys Street. The lower Bullens could be trimmed back to only go as far back as the 2nd row of columns greatly reducing the obstructed view there, and similar for the lower Gwladys. A new tier (20 rows)behind the Bullens would provide upto 5,000 new completely unobstructed and elevated views. That tier continued around to the Park-end and extended further back (30-40rows) would, including the corner section add up to a further 10,000 completely unobstructed views. This could give a total capacity of over 54,000 seats, with less than half the current obstructed views. All for the cost of just 15,000 new seats. We?re being asked to pay for approx 40,000 of the new ones at Kirkby, so there?s just a simple comparison!





Graham Atherton
56   Posted 17/06/2008 at 09:21:03

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Lovely evocative prose from Shaun - I think that encapsulates many a personal experience at GP and I have my favourite memories too.
I am however not being cynical when I say the future is about increased crowds and higher prices unless wage caps are introduced. In a world short of genuine entertainment live sport becomes more alluring and not less so. The premiership will go from strength to strength and so it should. Everton have to keep up, not contemplate their collective navels while all around us build for the future. Everton are in the process of rebuilding their European-wide reputation and not accepting limitations in our new structure because of sentiment - though of course sentiment has its place.

THE central problem with staying at GP is space. GP is on a very restricted plot with virtually no car parking. I’d have no objections to staying at GP if we had the same space available at Kirkby, as that would mean we weren’t building in limitations from the start.

There was a hint from LCC leader that they might think about letting us knock down schools, houses and dig up more of a public park but as far as I know they can do nothing about the church. Does nobody thing there will be huge outcry from locals if this was genuinely tried? Politics then come into play. At the very least there would be extensive delay and time is a commodity we don’t have.

Transport is a limitation to Everton fans? I don’t think so. A few of the most stubborn ilk won’t go at first but most will - it has been the same everywhere else and it will be more so for Everton fans. Witness one of the writers above having their own ’secret’ car park space - thousands do that every matchday and that will not change.

I don’t think building upwards is the answer and Tom’s CAD sketches show very limited space for corporates apart from at one end? They also don’t show massive outhanging supporting structures required to hold the roof up? You can’t just let those overhang peoples houses surely?
If the roof support can be arranged so that all the stresses fall within the 4 walls (as the sketches seem to indicate) surely that will mean far more disruption within the ground during each building phase - not least the building of the large structures required to take the strain? Complications and expense come to mind?
This is a great effort to show theoretical feasibility purely for the purpose of putting more seats in but looks flawed to me compared with the much larger structure on offer in Kirkby.
Ray Roche
57   Posted 17/06/2008 at 10:11:49

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EJ Ruane

Well said, I couldn?t agree more, but you may have missed THE most important fact re travel. Everton have, apparently, the biggest "walk up" fan base in the Premier League. It?s a long walk to Kirkby........
Tom Hughes
58   Posted 17/06/2008 at 11:14:35

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Graham,
some interesting points.....

"Transport is a limitation to Everton fans? I don?t think so."

Transport is a major issue for any stadium. Relocating to a less convenient site wont affect the die-hards you’re right. Unfortunately not all Evertonians go to all home and way games and are prepared to do anything to see our team. In fact only a small percentage are really that dedicated. Less convenience generally equates to less footfall in any commercial venture, certainly once the novelty has passed. Comparisons with other relocations should also be viewed in relation to where they have gone to. Sunderland and City are closer to their city-centres than their old sites for instance with all the added transport benefits, and Arsenal have literally moved around the corner. Which ones have actually moved out of town? Which ones have required the biggest park and ride scheme in the country (which isn’t viable)?


"I don?t think building upwards is the answer and Tom?s CAD sketches show very limited space for corporates apart from at one end?"

The CAD drawings on KEIOC website illustrate just one option, and not the one alluded to in this thread. In the one on that site boxes are built into both side stands with upto 4 levels on the Bullens side alone, with lounge areas for these arranged in the corner sections on their respective levels so I’m not sure which bits you have read regarding corporate provision. These could be far more numerous and superior in terms of elevated views than those on offer at Kirkby which are low down and single level only.


"They also don?t show massive outhanging supporting structures required to hold the roof up? You can?t just let those overhang peoples houses surely?"


There are no structures overhanging houses. The affected houses have been left in to show scale, positioning and indeed the houses that are actually physically infringed, the write-up oulines this issue and the numbers affected by shading etc. The mainstand reconfiguration across goodison rd in the southern corner is not essential for that scheme to work, but again is also not without precedent, see Villa’s new mainstand


"If the roof support can be arranged so that all the stresses fall within the 4 walls (as the sketches seem to indicate) surely that will mean far more disruption within the ground during each building phase - not least the building of the large structures required to take the strain? Complications and expense come to mind?"

The roof support layout is a basic 4 bow truss arrangement with support via 4 corner pillars. This is not unusual and again is flexible and just one option of many, mast and back stays as at Kirkby or even catenary arrangements are all viable given this set up. As I keep saying Ipswich managed to replace old single tier end stands using prefabricated sections to produce a new double-decker using precisely this method. Many others have done similar while the other sections remained operational. The first phase of that scheme involved the complete replacement of the Parkend which would’ve allowed the installation of 2 of these supporting structures with no infringement on existing stands as this was set back from the current building line. The additional capacity gained here is substantial enough to offset any loses in the second phase as shown.

This represents placing over 40,000 new seats at GP, offsetting costs again by utilising an enabling development at the Park end and increased revenue streams as each new section is commissioned. The result would be 3 brand new structures in a horse-shoe and a completely remodelled mainstand side. Of course there would be problems and planning issues, but there would be none of the transport/heritage/identity/planning problems that surround the Kirkby option that has split the fanbase so dramatically. ALL neighbouring authorities are objecting to the retail development alone..... without that, £78m rises dramatically, and a transport strategy is still not on the table after all these months. The company I used to work for designed the entire Merseytram system in a fraction of the time!! Furthermore, planning officers have seen the drawings and have no major reservations, as they haven’t for other possible similar redevelopments. EFC have never asked them. Feel free to phone them and ask them directly! That to me is shocking!!!
EJ Ruane
59   Posted 17/06/2008 at 11:22:21

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Graham, I would dispute this.

"The premiership will go from strength to strength and so it should. Everton have to keep up, not contemplate their collective navels while all around us build for the future".

First of all I think we need to define ’keeping up?’

Profit?

Becoming Champions?

Not getting relegated?

Finishing 5th?

4th?.

Personally I believe the Premier League is a badly administered, near-sighted, greedy, potential house of cards (just an opinion but I doubt I’m alone).

Also, I don’t believe the premiership WILL go from ’strength to strength’.

Sky might tell us it will, but the reality could be very different.

Of course If success is merely generating cash, you might have a point.

If it’s about having a fair competitive league, most teams in this hugely successful league (including us!) are already fucked.

Fact; In The Premier League, in it’s entirety, only two or three teams are capable of becoming Champions.

In the old first division (that presumably wasn’t working) there were actually teams that won the title on their first season in it.

This now is 100% impossible.

Teams may THINK they’re building/spending for the future, but the fact is for most, that future will not be rosy.

Remember, if you’d have asked Leeds a few years back, ’are you looking to the future?’,they’d have said "Yes, look at what we’ve spent".

’Super Sunday’ and ’Grand Slam Sunday’?

Bollocks!

What I see more and more of is empty seats.

Boro, Blackburn, Boro, the few that go will soon have to light fires to keep warm

Bolton who were sold a new ground, presumably as ’the future’ escaped relegation by the skin of their plums last season

Presumably Derby were sold their new Kip as being ’the future’.

Same with Coventry.

At the moment, the money being spent by (at least 3 of) the big four means NOBODY else is going to win the League.

This means any ’new’ fans will be lured to those teams - NOT us

As will businessmen who want to be associated with success.

So a new stadium in Kirkby might lure a couple of people who live in Kirkby, but there’s NO logical reason to suggest it will entice the numbers of new fans or businessmen that has been suggested.

Plus (I can personally guarantee) there will be supporters who won’t see Everton as Everton and who WILL pack it in.

So potentially millions spent, potentially nothing gained.

I don’t of course KNOW this will happen, but to deny the possibility would be stupid.

And if it is a possibility, why the fuck is anyone, having anything to do with it?

Or maybe I need to be ’realistic’
Alan Willo
60   Posted 17/06/2008 at 13:13:52

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Thanks again Tom, but as usual every time I ask for a financial package to support a plan B then all we get is a dismissal of the Kirkby project. I respect your knowledge on GP but its sounds a complete patch up job to me and certainly not one that fills me with excitement. Can?t believe you are still pushing the loop fiasco, this was a non starter due to the purchase of land, tunnel overhead access, 6 lane carriage way and the fact it was most likely to be self financing. Tom, I agree we can do whatever we want with a nice bank balance but sadly we have restraints, and it?s those restraints that hinder most if not all plan B?s. EJ, you are quite stupid aren?t you, 1 mile from GP is Sefton. Not in Liverpool. I bet you would take a new stadium say on Bootle stadium or Hillside playing fields wouldn?t you, well guess what it?s not in Liverpool. I park my car every home game outside the city and walk down Stuart rd, it?s not a boundary I cross but Queens Drive. Proves to me how petty the whole location debate is. COYB
Dave Smith
61   Posted 17/06/2008 at 13:43:12

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Moving to a new, modernised home, a stadium to be proud of for EFC is, i believe, a massive step in the right direction.

Despite this, and i’ve had a damn good look at the proposals for the stadium, with working for an architects, the proposals and the deal EFC gets is not right.

Showing the overall design mainly at nightime, with ludicrous lighting effects just doesn’t cut the mustard and in no way cloaks the fact that the stadium design is terrible, simply resembling a retail park shed with an open roof and grass inside. I honestly fail to see how designing and implementing a mediocre stadium at best will secure our future, leaving us immediately adrift of some of the better stadiums in the league such as the city stadium, emirates and RS new stadium, and also completely devoid of any personality.

Revising the stadium design is a must for me, i’m not willing to take it in that they wish to proceed with that design, unless what they intend is that our stadium fits with the style of a tescos supermarket shed.
Tom Hughes
62   Posted 17/06/2008 at 14:29:18

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Alan,
What financial package have you seen for Kirkby? How does it compare to the one sold to you at the vote? I can’t see any resemblance myself. The one I now see involves us finding £78m+ and rising. A lot could be done with that amount to completetly transform GP. This need not be a patch up at all. Please see what Rangers did with their Leitch stand, which was far more problematic with its facade being listed therefore requiring the whole top tier being lifted and constructed in situ, as with the roof also. This is the best and most iconic stand in the stadium, with its other modern neighbouring efforts looking more like the addlibs (and worryingly similar to Barr’s design for Kirkby). It is possible to extend or redevelop to create something special and still contain the history at the same time. The Loop is a blank canvas with better or equivalent local access than the likes of the Emirates, stamford Bridge and the Millenium. The road you mention is in a cutting with the site completely accessible along one whole side with bridged access already in place too. In terms of construction costs, this would be a small percentage of a stadium total cost. That’s before you go into the Transport fiasco. Even if Kirkby was the greatest stadium ever, and it was completely free what use would it be if we can’t all get into it or away from it in reasonable time and consequently people don’t turn up? Fact is, it’s not free nor particularly great and the transport consultants still cannot make it work even at the minimum 50k capacity! For the size of organisations and resources involved I would have expected to have all these issues resolved and plans in place before even committing to Kirkby. The whole thing can fall down on this alone!
EJ Ruane
63   Posted 17/06/2008 at 15:12:39

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Alan Willo states..

"EJ, you are quite stupid aren?t you, 1 mile from GP is Sefton. Not in Liverpool"

Touché Oscar - what a cutting remark.

Yawn (tip - have a point!)

"You continue..

"I bet you would take a new stadium say on Bootle stadium or Hillside playing fields wouldn?t you, well guess what it?s not in Liverpool"

Er..no I wouldn’t (so I’ll take that bet!),

Personally, if it’s not GP (my first choice) I’d take a stadium in the bit of Liverpool that Everton have always been in.

(I HAVE actually said this on many occasions, but understand that pursuing your career as a towering intellect, you may have missed it)

You finish with your most ludicrous sentence (a feat as the competition was fierce)

"Proves to me how petty the whole location debate is"

I don’t know how to break this to you, but you’ve been one half of this ’petty’ debate for months.

(Gooogle ’inconfuckinsistant’)

Anyone can be a genius - I admire your ability to be a genius who knows nothing
Graham Atherton
64   Posted 17/06/2008 at 22:10:40

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Tom
Your structure doesn’t fit in the existing footprint and is significantly smaller than that proposed for Kirkby. It will take time to enlarge the footprint, if it can be done at all. All costs will fall on the club, with nothing to sell to offset the cost, or will the fans support a sponsored renaming of Goodison park?
The likelyhood is still that the stadium will be a smaller structure - effectively building limitations into the structure for the future.
Comparisons with Portman Road are a little unrealistic given the amount of space around that stadium?
I would guess that your large supporting structures at each corner will limit capacity expansions in the future?

You are guilty of inventing figures about ’core support’ - unless you have references? Football is not like other businesses - suporters do not generally follow logic and tend to show loyalty over and above what many would call good sense! - Everton supporters show that more than most.



EJ
I can see your point but in a dynamic market demand can be manipulated by price - those empty seats can be filled. I would say there is gradually more competition building up as more ’rich’ teams come into the game - City, Villa & QPR now being owned by hugely rich people.
I define ’keeping up’ for Everton as competing at the very top - not fourth but first. Impossible for now but keep doing the right things and we will get there - we were 4 players short of third this year.
Steve Taylor
65   Posted 18/06/2008 at 00:56:37

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Tom - how can you decry the parking issues with DK & then on the next breath extole the virtues of the Loop!
Tom Hughes
66   Posted 18/06/2008 at 06:11:37

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Steve,
There are new stadia in the US in downtown areas with next to no parking because they don’t need it. On top of that the city centre has the highest number of parking spaces in the whole region with more planned. At the same time the areas surrounding the Loop in Everton etc are almost completely unpopulated nowadays faciltating more car parking
Tom Hughes
67   Posted 18/06/2008 at 06:33:18

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Graham,
The city planners are not averse to increasing the footprint if that is required. It is also possible to reach 50k by just extending the Parkend, The fact that my schemes are all smaller footprint than Kirkby is more an advantage than not and is achieved by proper overlapping of tiers which is not the case at Kirkby. this reduces viewing distances and preserves the intimacy of GP. According to Knowsley planning Dept Kirkby can never accommodate more than 50,419 meaning expansion wil be problematic there. there is no such stipulation at GP. The Ipswich comparison involves a stand that is built right up against the back of houses at an enclosed end of the stadium. It was intended to illustrate the fact that 2 tiered format can be put in place without significant loss in operating capacity during the development. there are several other similar developments with stands extended without such losses too. What have I invented about our core support, I’m not sure what you are intimating there?
Alan Willo
68   Posted 18/06/2008 at 13:17:06

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EJ, thank you for your most intelligent reply seems my initial comment was more accurate than I thought. So let?s look at it practically and hypothetically, GP can?t be improved and we are offered Hillside School playing fields just walking distance from GP. Your reply is you?re not interested as it?s not where EFC belong or have lived in before!! Well I?m sorry but if Queens Drive is this massive border that cant be crossed then I?m very sorry but you don?t live in the real world or have blinkers on when it comes to progress, I?m surprised you have invested in a computer must be a real strain to communicate with people who live past Cherry Lane!! Before you send back reams of replies I?m only being pedantic, or is that you? COYB.
James Gormley
69   Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:54:35

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Sorry Ron, but when did Arsenal, Man City and Liverpool move out of town?

Judging by the rest of your comment, you believe all of the Wyness scare-stories, so, just to ask, has the Bullens roof fallen through yet?
Graham Atherton
70   Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:35:20

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Hi Tom
Sorry I wasn’t intimating anything underhand - I simply want to know the source of the figures you mention about proportions of fans in this statement (and others)
" In fact only a small percentage are really that dedicated [to travel to kirkby]."
I would say most season ticket holders are dedicated enough to alter their travel plans a little - we have little real data on what parts of the city they come from whereas the club do.

Squashing the stadium up to fit a small footprint will indeed move people closer to the pitch and I agree that is desirable in some ways (but not to the point of making the stands too steep) but there is a large loss of space from the stadium facilities underneath - and fitting 50 000 fans in the space that currently struggles to cater for 36 000 will be cramped to say the least surely? Why not remove space as a limitation from now and for the future?
We have to offer better facilities to charge more money from people used to paying a few extra pounds for the likes of first class travel for example - for the extra space it provides.
We have to have flexibility to extend the stadium too. There is mention of an apparent limit on stadium size in Kirkby but we don’t know if that has been finally agreed or whether it could change in the future when travel links could be expanded?
Dave Stott
71   Posted 18/06/2008 at 15:33:15

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Having just seen the plans of the new Portsmouth stadium i cant help but feel a sense of jealousy. Not because they are a better club than us, nor that they are going to have a stadium that is still in the city, it is because the stadium is something the people of the city will be proud, the fanse will be proud of and it will add a new layer of identity and iconic symbol to the city - something that is sorely missing from the plans at DK.

The plans can bee seen here:

http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/index.php?cms_ref=home&goto=stadium&qs_article_id=1297

...and there is some interesting build up on this link:

http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/index.php?cms_ref=home&goto=stadium&qs_article_id=1297

The level of transparency and quality of information coming form Portsmouth FC seems incomparable to EFC’s drip drip of vague information
EJ Ruane
72   Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:54:57

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Alan Willo - the (VERY) poor man’s Byron.

I read that flowery bollocks twice and genuinely have no idea what 95% of it is about.

Maybe if you concentrate on getting your ’point’ across, instead of trying to think of the most complicated way of saying everything, things might be easier (nb: people don’t ’invest’ in a computer, they buy one).

Are you a religious leader by the way?

I ask as you have that way of suggesting your two-bob guesswork, is cast-in -stone fact.

Example?

You say "let?s look at it practically and hypothetically, GP can?t be improved".

Really?

Is that a fact?

Oh right,,,and you know (repeat KNOW) this how?

Reason I ask, is that Tom Hughes and others who ARE qualified, believe it CAN be improved.

Imagine that - someone knowing more than you - the NERVE!

Truth is, you are so wrapped up in being ’right’ you can’t be taken seriously.

After every Tom Hughes post, you’re there..

"That’s a good point Tom however I disagree..." blah uninformed blah guesswork.

You say... "You don’t live in the real world".

Well, that’s fine, I won’t be alone as I have a feeling ANYONE who disagrees with you, (anytime on any subject), isn’t ’living in the real world’ (ie: Willo-world)

As for your ’big’ finish?

"I?m only being pedantic, or is that you?"

Er no... definitely you Shakespeare.
Tom Hughes
73   Posted 18/06/2008 at 17:08:51

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Graham,
The point I was trying to make is that only a small proportion of fans are real diehards who will endure ANYTHING to watch our team...... otherwise we would have 36,000 applications for every away game..... we don’t, only a few thousand go to all games. We could also put the stadium literally anywhere and know they would all turn up..... but ofcourse that’s not the case, I believe convenience is important, especially as we are supposed to be in the business of filling as many seats as possible..... this can only be hindered by a venue that is so poorly linked to most of the catchments areas districts in the city-region. Hardly any have direct bus/train services compared to Walton/town, and the park and ride scheme fell at the first hurdle. The city-centre’s mainline train and coach services will be a £15-20 taxi ride away. Put it this way, which would be more likely to sell out, a venue (of any description for that matter) near town or one in Speke/Huyton or Kirkby? Cold winter nights and waiting for 2 buses or 2 trains will effect people’s decisions IMO.

As regards the stadium scheme mentioned currently GP only fully utilises one corner with any efficiency, if the other 2 available corners could be filled properly this alone could equate to 3-6,000 new seats. Which means little real expansion is required to match Kirkby. Also, the redevelopment route benefits from allowing the club to assess demand gradually, with increased revenue helping to fund each stage as has happened at St James’ Park and Old Trafford for instance. 5,000 new seats on the upper Bullens would offer the opportunity to test that demand for far less than the outlay at Kirkby and would greatly improve this side of the ground in both appearance and function..... what if the extra 14,000 don’t materialise at Kirkby? How do we cover the cost of those unwanted seats? As far as where Evertonians come from. I believe we have the highest or certainly one of the highest localised support, and one third of all season ticket holders are from the Wirral. They can only be more inconvenienced by Kirkby, by train or by road!
Alan Willo
74   Posted 18/06/2008 at 18:09:22

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EJ, Thanks you have made me smile today after a shit day. I was not saying GP couldn?t I was being hypothetical to prove the point that you wouldn?t even move to Stuart Road for a new stadium, this was just an example to showing how blinkered you are with your point of view. I created a scenario, it was not real. I?m a very proud Atheist, not that it matters. EJ ?hypothetical? ?based on assumption rather than fact or reality?, anyway my reply is arrogant enough even for my standards. As a side issue I think Tom answers or theories on GP are excellent and worth reading, just can?t get passed the cost element in my head otherwise I respect his opinion. COYB
Dominic Tonge
75   Posted 18/06/2008 at 18:15:10

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What an evocative and heartfelt piece Shaun, and it reminds me of a conversation me and my girlfriend had when we first got together.... We were doing the getting to know you bit, and touched upon what our favourite view was, mine oddly (she thought) is the view I get when I walk to the game.

I walk down the side of the KwikSave, down a little alley, and turn right, and Goodison is there, so are the thousands of blues, and EVERY time I turn that corner I smile.... because I am home, and I remember walking the same route with my cousins and my uncle Jim, who I used to go to the game with before he passed away. I feel his arm on my shoulder, I feel like a kid again. I feel the same feeling I felt when I was small, walking to the ground, the stadium grow bigger ? and so too the butterflies in my stomach(although these are more excitement now than the trepidation I used to feel due to another upcoming stuffing from average opposition-but i digress), excitement mounting.....

Now this is my problem, I do agree the club must move forward, I do agree that the pillars get in the way sometimes, that although we had a cutting edge stadium, we don?t now, I agree we need to increase revenue, attract more fans and so forth, but I don?t agree that this is the way to go about it. I remember my chats on that walk, my education (and iI needed it - my old man is a Leeds fan, so it could have been a lot worse for me, I mean, Elland Road eh, that classes as child abuse in anyone?s book surely!).

I remember being told about the birth of the club, the spilt with those who shall not be named, Dixie, Alex Young, Bob Latchford, Brian Labone, and it occurs to me that If you do really know your history (and perhaps I don?t ? I don?t profess to being an expert) Everton was and is now on the road to again being more Harrods than Tesco.

Do we really want to play in the "Tesco Value range Arena" or have our 3rd kit being blue and white stripes with Tesco emblazoned across it....I mean just because Liverpool favour Netto carrier bags for thier shirts, why should we follow suit? I am joking there but I do want to know that the club isn?t selling it?s soul and that this is the BEST option which I doubt, we deserve it.

We who went to York away, we who sat through the bad times, who have seen the lows and the highs, WE are Everton, as much as Dixie and the Golden Vision, so if we have to uproot, just please, for us Everton, and those who taught us to walk the right route, to turn the right corners, do us proud, don?t settle for second best.

I want my kids' hearts to swell with pride as mine did, and I just hope that my new "view" isn?t tainted.....going to Bolton in the old days before the Reebok we asked a guy how to get to the stadium, his answer? Behind the big Asda lads, it?s huge, can?t miss it.... when asked, "What? the ground?" he made me laugh with "no, the Asda!" not so funny now though on reflection.

So please, blues give it some thought and come up with whats best, I want a successful club, but integrity is more important, and there Tesco ARE right, with integrity "Every little helps".

Vincent Lysaght
76   Posted 18/06/2008 at 19:10:55

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Sometimes my eyes well and stomach churns with emotion about EFC and all the memories. However we need to move on. That is life and life’s not always fair. DK is the only viable option in the time-frame we have. It’s not ideal but it’s a matter of survival. We can’t delay or we risk losing our beloved club to lower leagues, obscurity and even demise. That’s a memory I couldn’t bear. Keep the memories but most of all let’s keep the club and build for the future.
Dave Wilson
77   Posted 18/06/2008 at 19:45:00

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Vincent

This is what I cant get, why do you feel were have to move within a certain "time frame"
is there a ticking time bomb under GP ?
Has Evertonia been stricken by some incurrable plague ?

How long have we got doc ?

You go on to say if we dont go to kirkby we "risk loosing our beloved club to the lower leagues "

Why ?
We have been at GP for well over 100 years and in that time no other club has played more top flight games, now all of a sudden, relegation looms "if we stay a minute longer ! ! !

Try looking at it a different way, a logical way

Sunderland, Derby Liecester, Coventry, Reading, Southampton all did what you yes men are desperate for us to do and guess what ? ? ?
Yes thats right, the fucken lot of them


Bolton escaped by the skin of their teeth, but they’ll go next year

The yes men come on this site claiming we have to move to Improve despite all the evidence to the contrary

Show me a prem club who have moved and actually improved its fortunes ? when you cant come up with one - trust me you wont - ask yourself why

Bob Turner
78   Posted 18/06/2008 at 20:36:09

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Dave,

Arsenal.....
Vincent Lysaght
79   Posted 18/06/2008 at 21:09:21

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Dave, the ticking time bomb is Health and Safety, maintenance costs, shut stands, reduced revenue, lost increased revenue from better facilities and catering and merchandising; investors, fans and players wanting habitable facilities, stagnation, apathy, knock on effects of all the above including a gradual slip down the table etc - a complete and unstopable vicious circle, sorry spiral, of decline. Time has almost run out. We are competing with dozens of European teams for the spoils of success - the losers over the next few years will be eased out of the competitions that I want to see Everton in.
Dave Wilson
80   Posted 19/06/2008 at 04:46:59

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Bob

Arsenal played in a European finalsl, they won cup after cup, championship after championship they did the seemingly impossible and went through the season unbeaten ! even by their high standards, they enjoyed a period of unprecedented success
Then they moved, since then they have won Nothing, yes bob thats a big fat zilch . . . .some improvement

The FACT is, no team, has ever gone on to better things after a move,
Still Bully has told you that moving would be our only means of salvation, so you’ll follow, BAHHH BAHHHH


Vincent,
Your right , there is a ticking tiime bomb, inflation is rising, fuel cost are going through the roof, the price of steel is rising so quickly it may soon be cheaper to build a stadium in fucken Gold.
Just about every reputable financial body is telling us to brace ourselves !

Fuck these so called financial experts, lets dive in.
Lets alienate a huge percetage of the fan base - that’ll increase the sale of merchandise and get them flocking to the new stadium , , , always providing they can get there
Lets plunge the club into a debt, that will garentee we cant back the manager in the same way other clubs will back theirs

Ok, so most of the funding went out of the window when the "very high price" we’ll get for bellfield went south but that cant get in the way, we need to be like Sunderland, Reading and Southampton NOW ! ! !

Lets do it at the very time everyone else is tightening their belts, surely, even in this economic climate they’ll be queing around the block to give us 20 million for the naming rights of a stadium in that great Metropolis Kirkby ?

Despite what Bully tells you, GP will not fall down, not in the next hundred years, sure we have to redevelop, or even move in the not to distant future

But Kirkby ???

complete and utter madness
Bob Turner
81   Posted 19/06/2008 at 18:15:53

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Dave

You mentioned grounds improvng a club’s "fortunes" - since it is a fair bet that neither GP or Kirkby will deliver instant trophies, then I assume your argument is based more around finances.

Pre Emirates, Arsenal’s capacity was 38,419, now it averages 60,000+. They got approximately £100m for naming rights.

Sounds like Arsenal have improved its fortunes to me.

What you have here, Dave, is a syllogism - Arsenal move grounds, Arsenal don’t win the league by going through the season unbeaten, therefore moving grounds is not a "good thing".

On your tired sheep reference, it’s getting boring. I have a brain, and use it to make my own mind up, thank you very much. If I wasn’t capable, I’d be listening to you lot, wouldn’t I?
Dave Wilson
82   Posted 19/06/2008 at 19:16:33

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Arsenal, move grounds - Arsenal over 200 million in debt

Arsenal move grounds - Arsenal go from winning everything in site to winning nothing
Arsenal move grounds - very definite downturn in fortunes, just ask their fans.

So as I was saying, NO club has ever moved grounds and improved their fortunes.... incontravertable evidence I calls it
Bob Turner
83   Posted 19/06/2008 at 21:45:58

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£200m in debt vs market capitalisation value of more than half a billion (yes, that £541m)

Or how about Forbes business magazine valuation of £605m before debt?

Turnover of £200m with operating profit (before players? transfers) of £51m?
And you?re trying to tell me that moving stadium is the reason why Arsenal have not won anything in the last 2 years. Really??

I know it?s in your nature to disagree with everything which could possibly be used in favour of the move to Kirkby, but come on....
Dave Wilson
84   Posted 20/06/2008 at 05:31:13

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Look Bob

I would guess - top of my head, that 10-15 household name clubs have moved
I threw out an invitation, to every yes man to show me an example, where it had been a success,
I knew some one would say Arsenal - lets face it there had to be one of them that hadnt been relegated
Arsenal have always been one of the richest clubs in the world, always,
please dont make out that moving has suddenly made them so

Arsenal had a season ticket waiting list of over 20,000, the demand for tickets exceeded the Highbury capacity by over 20,000, EVERY GAME
They had a ready made market, we hardly fill GP, we have never had a waiting list ! and please dont quote the 2,000 they’re claiming on the OS, you too probabley got the begging letter

Not sure if you’ve been. but trust me if you havent, The Emerates, is truly magnificent, its a hundred times better than the proposed stadium at Kirkby, but I personally know 8 life long Arsenal fans - through my job - and despite the magnificence of the Emrates, they are after only TWO YEARS looking back at the Highbury days with a dewey eyed nostalgia

You ask me if I think them moving had anything to do with them not winning anything ? I would suggest you ask an Arsenal fan, they have no doubt at all


Choose to ignore all the moves that resulted in abject failure - it’s in keeping with the yes mans blinkered view - vocus on Arsenal. the one you believe will justify a move to Kirkby, but even that wont wash

No club, I repeat, no club, has moved and improved its fortunes
Barry Sherlock
85   Posted 20/06/2008 at 11:14:21

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Dave,
Middlesbrough. They moved to the Riverside and have won their first trophy in the clubs history.

But, I would say that from an outsider looking in; Sunderland, Man City, Boro, Arsenal have a far better quality of ground nowadays. And that in turn means that the paying fan gets a better experience from going to the game. Okay it’s all about the team - no it isn’t. It’s about the fans as well. It’s about me taking my lad to the game and not having to explain why the toilets are so bad. Or that we can’t see the player taking the corner becasue a big post is in the way!

Returning to your point; moving grounds does cost more. But, let me tell you in ten years NO ONE will touch Arsenal. Their earning potential will not be matched by Utd, Chelsea, Shite, City Spurs or us. To answer your question we will not improve over night. But in time we will. IMO.
COYB
Colin Hughes
86   Posted 20/06/2008 at 11:31:17

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My god, I have not taken part in the debate as I will follow MY TEAM wherever they play, but that piece has nearly reduced me to tears.
I know Kirkby is wrong and so are the people running OUR CLUB. There is a place for sentiment and I hope we can stay true to our history and beliefs which stand us apart from the rest.
Tom Hughes
87   Posted 20/06/2008 at 11:53:32

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Barry,
You have a point, but it has to be viewed context......GP isn’t anything like as delapidated as Roker, the baseball, Burnden park or Ayresome Park. Also, the emirates is around the corner from Highbury and the stadium of light is on top of their town centre as is the COM stadium. The riverside is rarely full, and much of their relative success as come because of their wealthy chairman funding signings etc. The Kirkby stadium isn’t even as good as the SOL and is in grossly inferior location transport and identity wise. What you want for your lad, in terms of quality of view and facilities can be achieved at GP. Furthermore it can be done without splitting the fanbase, and in incrimental affordable steps, and without incurring the massive gamble that the whole transport proposition represents. If you want a good view for your boy, look for a seat in the front rows of the upper Bullens/upper Gwladys or Top Balcony. I guarantee there will not be any better at Kirkby!
Barry Sherlock
88   Posted 20/06/2008 at 12:06:51

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Tom,
I do understand where you are coming from. But, whilst we have the current board in place are we ever going to look at staying at GP??? NO.
It’s harsh but a fact. I gave up the on, what I really want, to the okay I’ll accept a step in the right direction. I would love to stay at a new improved GP. I would have loved the Kings Dock. But they are not on the table. What is, isn’t all that bad IMO. And, because it is new, has far larger capacity, has the ability to further increase that capacity, it is like I said a forward step for the club IMO.
Tom Hughes
89   Posted 20/06/2008 at 13:06:31

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Barry,
I don’t think Knowsley will allow a stadium expansion. At least that wsa what their planning offive have said..... The attendance will never be greater than 50,419. That might change in the future, but there are no guarantees...... but the main point should be why isn’t the redevelopment option on the table?
Dave Wilson
90   Posted 20/06/2008 at 13:01:43

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Barry

The people in favour of kIirkby, claim we have to move to improve our fortunes

I asked, Show me the evidence ? do you really consider Middlesborough evidence ?
They got relegated mate ! !
Their crowds are matched only by the Wigans and Boltons of this world - see a pattern developing here ?

The facts are - andf they are facts - the overwhelming majority of clubs who have moved have been relegated
Your not really suggesting the fans of these clubs would’nt trade the comfort of their new seat to have avoided the drop are you

Tom Coleman
91   Posted 20/06/2008 at 13:19:36

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Sentiment or Business

Football is a very strange business; its patrons are motivated by a sense of belonging and history as much as quality of product.

No amount of figures about increased capacity and corporate facilities will detract from the fact that many of the staunchest of our supporters will not go to Kirkby.

I have quoted before the figures that I have come up with about the vote, but that is a done thing and no amount of scepticism will change this. But using the clubs figures along with what I have herd myself, of the 10,000 no voters possibly 40% will not set foot in Kirkby. Of the other 60% I know of very few who will renew their season tickets but will attend the odd game.

The decision of people to not go to Kirkby may be one of Sentiment as well as logistics, but the really worrying thing is why are the club as a business burying their heads in the sand and hopping that full gates will facilitate this move when all the signals say they will drop, possibly to a catastrophic level?
Barry Sherlock
92   Posted 20/06/2008 at 14:02:10

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Dave,
There are no "examples" of other teams that are in Evertons’ position. You asked for an example of a team that has bettered itself from moving to a new ground. Well Boro. They are now a team who can compete. Not just because of the chairman. They get alot more fans than they would ever hope to get inside a seated Ayresome Park. But it doesn’t matter what Boro have won, who they buy etc. Because we don’t support Boro do we?

Our team are IMO potentially being overtaken by other teams around them. Villa are going to develop. City have a large ground. Portsmouth are looking at moving. West Ham are looking at it. And what’s move concerning is the fact that ALL of the above have wealthy owners. And there you have it. We need move supporters in order to stay in touch with the sky4 and stay above the chasing pack.

So let’s not talk about the other teams becasue we know that Bolton, Charlton, Boro, Sunderland etc are shit and not in the same class as the Blues.
COYB
Dave Wilson
93   Posted 20/06/2008 at 19:13:49

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Barry

You fear we may be overtaken by other clubs, however, you dismiss most of the teams that have moved, as shit and not comparable to us, lets look at the clubs who in my opinion will finish top half

Ourselves
Chelsea ; Havent moved
Man U ; Havent moved
Liverpool Havent moved
Arsenal ;
Spurs ; havent moved
Villa : havent moved
Newcastle : havent moved
Portsmouth : havent moved
West Ham L: havent moved

I know this is only my idea of the top 10 but be honest, 8-9 of them will be everyone elses too

So
Are you suggesting we have got to move in order to keep track with all the teams who havent ?
However the clubs who have moved will be in a dog fight in the bottom half so we need’nt worry about them ?

Honestly mate

the yes voters really really scare me
Dave Wilson
94   Posted 20/06/2008 at 19:43:42

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Barry

just to emphasise the point,

My Idea of bottom half / relegation fighters.
Again, just my opnion, but very close to most other peoples, I believe

City ; new stadium
Fulham
Sundreland : new stadium
Boro : new stadium
Wigan : new stadium
Hull : new stadium
Stoke : new stadium
Bolton : new stadium
W Bom
Blackburn
Pattern ?

Then look at the fortunes of other big clubs who have built new stadiums

Leicester, S/hampton, Derby, Coventry, Reading,

Hardly rubber stamps your argument, that moving = improved fortunes, does it ?


Tim Laynge
95   Posted 21/06/2008 at 13:33:45

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From a rather dispassionate perspective as objectively as possible following the arguments for and against(for quite a long while now) I can see the logical even if passionate facts provided by the against side as opposed to the ’yes’ side who merely appear aggressive in their stance(cf.Mr Tom Hughes above) which ever confirms itself in threads read since then. I was just reading this article http://www.sportingo.com/football/a9021_destination-kirkby-danger-that-everton-might-become-special-offer-under-tescos-control which clearly states LCC’s readiness to "relocate a school and rehouse nearby tenants so that Everton can expand Goodison Park" to "60,000" do you mind. After this what sort of proof do the ’yes’ side want that Evertonians are being had.If their argument holds no historic structure would still stand to useage anywhere in the world. Mad to get away from ’The City of Culture’ I believe and leave it all to the RS,.......UNLESS of course they have some sort of hidden agenda.
Steve Taylor
96   Posted 21/06/2008 at 13:58:18

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Dave - with respect mate that’s a poor argument - to try & suggest that by moving grounds we’re somehow going to turn into relegation fodder is a nonsense.

Ignoring the location, how can anyone possibly argue that the prospect of having a larger capacity & more corporate facilities could be a retrograde step is beyond me.

Your comment about Arsenal fans looking back with "dewey eyed nostalgia" - of course they do - Highbury was as important to them as GP is for us - but it was too small with the same issues as Goodison (only not as bad!) But would they want it back? - would they shite. The £3M turnover per game the Emirates is generating will enusre that Arsenal can keep pace with the PL front runners in the coming decades.

I doubt you’d be making the same protestations about DK - if the identical stadium with exactly the same "issues" was due to be constructed in Walton Hall Park?
Dom Wilkinson
97   Posted 21/06/2008 at 15:01:48

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If we were in London or Manchester there wouldn?t be a problem with building our ground anywhere but typical Merseyside council delay things ? and not just with us but even the shite are having problems. The councils will weigh up what they can make out of it first and then decide. I don?t care where we play as long as we have a good side but we can?t stay at Goodison because its a shithole; however sentimental you may be, you must be realistic. And as for businesses close to Goodison complaining about loss of business then they should look further than earning a bit of money every other week. Our current ground is probably big enough for what we need realistically but anyone who sits in the Upper Bullens will tell you it needs a major overhaul which doesn?t seem possible.
Dave Wilson
98   Posted 21/06/2008 at 15:33:33

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Steve Taylor

You?ve got the argument arse about face mate, I wasn't suggesting moving would turn us into instant relegation candidates, I was saying moving will not guarantee our fortunes will suddenly improve.
All of the teams I have mentioned thought this... funnily enough, ALL of them were wrong.

Why on earth do you suppose a deeply unpopular move to Kirkby would be any different?
Steve Taylor
99   Posted 21/06/2008 at 15:53:06

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Dave - tbh if it happens I don’t think it’ll have a big impact either way in the short term - in the medium term it’s success or otherwise will depend on what’s happening on the pitch to a large extent.

I’ve seen a lot of Blues saying they won’t go to Kirkby if we move - I don’t understand that mentality tbh - EFC isn’t Goodison & neither will it be Kirkby - in the main I think that’s an idle threat, from staunch No voters - who are understandably emotive about the subject. But refusing to follow the club merely because of the move over a notional boundary line, is IMO nonsensical
Dave Wilson
100   Posted 21/06/2008 at 16:50:07

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Steve

But thats it mate

The people who say they wont go, have just as much difficulty understanding you,
I dont believe the threats are idle - I know they’re not in the circles I move in

The reason I am so against Kirkby is that I believe, that EFC is a club that represents a large section of the liverpool community, I am very very proud of our association with the city of Liverpool
I truely believe that any side playing their home games in Kirkby , could never amount to anything more than a grubby imposter of the club I love
James Connolly
101   Posted 21/06/2008 at 19:12:20

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And so the argument rumbles on and on.

But where is the solution coming from?

There are a lot of intelligent posts on this thread each with valid points and not so valid points.

I would like to offer this thoughtful impression.

I fear that there is a danger here in the potential outcome of us moving to Kirkby, the anti-Kirkby protesters will guarantee the project will fail just to prove a point. What damage would this have on the club?

I, as previously stated in this thread am pro-Kirkby because I SUPPORT Everton Football Club. I don’t just follow, I SUPPORT!

And I will continue to support them wherever they play. The comments from some so called supporters stating they would not attend an Everton game again if played in Kirkby saddens me.

Therefore, I would like to pose this question.

If the move to Kirkby went ahead, use your energies supporting the club, or use your energies bringing it down?
Tom Hughes
102   Posted 21/06/2008 at 20:20:40

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James,
Converesly, if a supporter believes that by moving the club out of sight, out of mind and out of the city we may be endangering the very future of that club in this most territorial and tribal of football cultures...... should he not use all his/her energy to try to prevent this happening? That is what I think most no-voters truly believe. There are massive potential pitfalls, and inconsistencies with what we’ve been sold here. The very fact that no options have been openly explored by the club and offered up as direct comparisons kills the "deal of the century" and every other vote winning soundbite stone dead. A real deal of the century would invite and thrive comparison...... this one avoids all scrutiny, I wonder why? Can you really state with full honesty that you believe that this move doesn’t represent as many dangers as possible salvations given the transport strategy fiasco and the spiralling cost on this supposedly fixed cost construction project? The potential marginalising of the club and its support to peripheries of a vibrant city that is coming back to life? The myopic process followed by the club to date stinks IMO
Tom Hughes
103   Posted 21/06/2008 at 20:59:17

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Steve,

"but it was too small with the same issues as Goodison (only not as bad!)"

don’t believe that is true. Arsenals’ predicament was completely different to ours. Firstly Highbury was even more hemmed in than GP with Houses built upto the stands, and with surrounding property prices many times higher than ours. They had no large expanse of land readily expanandable into, as we have at the Parkend. They also had a waiting list over 20,000 strong, and were only venturing a few hundred yards. Their old side stands were probably unexpandable and at maximum capacity. The Bullens can be expanded at the rear and still maintain good viewing performance in a new or expanded upper tier. This was not possible at Highbury so I don’t believe our predicament with GP is as bad. We have 2000 more seats than highbury for starters!
EJ Ruane
104   Posted 23/06/2008 at 10:38:52

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James you ask..

"If the move to Kirkby went ahead, use your energies supporting the club, or use your energies bringing it down?"

As I and many others have said, many times and you and others choose to ignore, ’the club; for some (ie: me), if moved to Kirkby, won’t BE ’the club’ anymore.

So heres a question for you.

Why would I ’support’ a club that I don’t think is Everton? (read ’My Everton’, ’What Is YOUR Everton?)

If you want to support any building that has the name Everton FC attached, that’s up to you.

You also say "And I will continue to support them wherever they play"

I have seen this many times on many posts and each time think it is bollocks.

Would you support them if they moved to Winsford?

Stafford?

Inverness?

I very much doubt it.

You also write that you ’don’t just follow you SUPPORT’.

Congratulations, you are obviously a great and unique Evertonian.

That gives me another reason not to go to Kirkby.

I am simply not worthy of being in the same stadium as such a fantastic Evertonian as yourself.



Brian Hardy
105   Posted 23/06/2008 at 11:15:18

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EJ, I wasn?t aware that I?d been supporting a building all these years - thanks for pointing that out.

& the proposed move isn?t to Winsford, Stafford or Inverness is it? It?s to Kirkby 5 miles away from Goodison park.

When are you lads going to stop being Evertonians then? As there?s seemingly loads of you who are going to desert the club if the ground move happens - are you all going to walk away from the last home game of the season before & say "Oh well that?s that, no EFC for me then"...................
EJ Ruane
106   Posted 23/06/2008 at 11:49:14

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I genuinely don’t mind anyone putting forward any view, even if it’s the total opposite to mine.

To be honest I’m happy with abuse (giving and taking) straying from the point etc etc.

The only thing I find annoying is when questions are asked by people who apparently have only ever read one post (or simply ignore all the posts they don’t agree with?)

Even those more than happy to move, would I’m sure admit, that no-voters have at least attempted to explain how they see things

I’m sure many yes and no voters would agree that how we all see Everton FC is at the crux of yes/no.

Brian you ask..

"When are you lads going to stop being Evertonians then?"

This HAS been answered in some (ie: fucking loads of!) detail, so I’m not going to go through the entire thing (as I say read ’My Everton’, ’What is YOUR Everton?’ etc).

Personally, it boils down to this.

I’ll stop being an Evertonian when I think Everton FC is not Everton FC anymore.

And For me that will be when they are in Kirkby (or Winford or Skem or Torquay or anywhere else where there’s loads of Scousers...that’s outside Liverpool)

Basically, the same reasons as Wimbledon supporters now watch AFC Wimbledon not MK Dons.

I honestly believe (I don’t KNOW but...neither do you) that in 15 years, an ’Everton FC’ in Kirkby will have had some kind of name change and there’ll be people saying "Well why shouldn’t we incorporate Knowsley, we play in..." etc blah

You don’t have to agree, put please grasp the concept.

I’m more than happy for you or anyone else to completely disagree with what my definition of Everton FC is, but please, no more "why? when you’ve already had the answer a hundred times.
Barry Sherlock
107   Posted 23/06/2008 at 12:01:56

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Dave Wilson,
I would agree with the teams you have mentioned. The reason we will fall further and further behind these teams is:-
Chelsea ; Havent moved MEGA RICH OWNER BANK ROLLING HUGE LOSSES.
Man U ; Havent moved EXPANDED GROUND, RICH OWNERS, HUGE TURNOVER
Liverpool Havent moved WILL MOVE/NEED TO MOVE, RICH OWNERS
Arsenal ; MOVED AND WILL GET RICHER AND RICHER AND RICHER
Spurs ; havent moved NEED TO MOVE BUT HAVE RICH INVESTMENT
Villa : havent moved NEED TO MOVE BUT ALSO HAVE RICH OWNER
Newcastle : havent moved EXPANDED GROUND AND RICH OWNER
Portsmouth : havent moved NEED TO MOVE BUT HAVE RICH OWNER
West Ham : havent moved NEED TO MOVE BUT HAVE RICH OWNER
And there my friend is your pattern.
IMO we need investment. IMO Kirkby will provide investment and will provide us with bigger gates. We need that. We do not have the Rich Owner. We do not have the ground capacity.

I respect your opinion and your loyalty to LCC but frankly they have done nothing to help EFC.
Damian Wilde
108   Posted 23/06/2008 at 12:25:10

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The MK Dons comparison is a ridiculous one and smacks of being desperate to say it. They moved many, many miles away and changed names. I fully back people supporting AFC Wimbledon, as what happened to Wimbeldon was a disgrace. We’re moving 4 miles and will keep our name. Also, I do not think we will ever change our name. That’s just stirring it up.

I’m just waiting for you to say that all of our records will be destroyed, we’ll move to the South of France and be called Arles FC. Could be a possibility, or maybe it’ll be Torquay after all, who knows??
EJ Ruane
109   Posted 23/06/2008 at 13:13:28

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Damian - a question.

Exactly (that’s EXACTLY) how many miles would Everton FC have to move before you personally would say ’too far!’ or ’it won’t be Everton’?

You say the MK Dons comparison is a ridiculous one as they moved (quote) ’many’ miles.

By the way, if you do have an answer, is it more specific than ’er..not many miles’?.

The reason I ask you to be specific, is that to you, this is (obviously) merely a matter of a certain specific distance (otherwise why mention 4 miles?)

Is five milles ok for you?

Six?

Seven?

NOT SEVEN?

But seven is only one mile more....

You see where this goes?

I believe my comparison is/was fair as I (unlike you) don’t believe it’s about the amount of miles, but where those miles take you.

’Many miles’ took Wimbledon away from Wimbledon, where their supporters thought they belonged.

As a consequence of that move, a new Wimbledon was started - one that remained in Wimbledon.

4-5 miles will take Everton FC out of the city of Liverpool where (I believe) we belong.

As a consequence of that move, to me, they won’t be (my!) Everton FC anymore.

And If they end up in another Borough/town out of the City, I also believe it’s not fantasy to suggest the possibility that, in the future, that borough might say "We’d like to incorporate the name....." etc

I believe the specific distance is neither here nor there.

Consequently, I believe the comparison is more than legitimate.
Barry Sherlock
110   Posted 23/06/2008 at 14:15:48

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EJ,
And if in the future (who knows, right?) Kirkby comes back under LCC? What then? Will you support the club again?

Exactly (lower case) what have LCC done for us?
Brian Hardy
111   Posted 23/06/2008 at 14:22:24

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EJ - so 5 miles to Kirkby is unacceptable in your eyes due to the boundary.

But I assume that 10 miles to Speke would be Ok because the sacred line hasn’t been crossed?

Am I right in thinking that Walton wasn’t part of the City of Liverpool when Goodison was built?

I fail to see the logic in your view on your future lack of support for EFC - you are of course welcome to make your own mind up - but to me personally, to draw down the shutters on a lifelong support of EFC due to the potential new ground being situated the "wrong side" of a boundary line - makes no sense.

The MK Dons comparison - isn’t one - that was a completely different scenario & to even suggest that the club would change it’s name in the future is a complete nonsense.
Tom Davies
112   Posted 23/06/2008 at 15:28:51

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Excellent piece, I know how you feel when you see the look on your dads face.

It?s a shame to see that after such a moving article there are still people who refuse to care about our history or our heritage and pass this off as nonsense so they can have a couple of quid thrown at our feet by Tesco.

Goodison Park or an independant stadium (not a retail park venue) in the city is the only way other clubs are going to envy us, Kirkby is the way to go if we want them all laughing at us.
EJ Ruane
113   Posted 23/06/2008 at 15:56:57

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Damian/Brian.

For you to disagree with, laugh at, be annoyed by etc.

http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/07-08/comment/fan/article.asp?submissionID=7536

(I feel it answers all questions as to what, why and how I feel on this subject)
Tom Coleman
114   Posted 23/06/2008 at 15:55:34

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Brian Hardy,

The MK Dons comparison is not a good one you say. But remember by alienating only 3-4000 match going supporters they took the risk to move to a town of 184,000 with a possible ready made support. That was the risk.

We are proposing to move much closer, to a town of 40,000. Because of the proximity we will not loose our old support totally, but of an average gate of 36,000 we will lose about 30%. That is before taking into account bad transport, bog standard ground, wrong location to attract corporate clients.

When looking at the 2 scenarios maybe it?s hard to make a comparison, but only because one risk level was a lot less than the other.

Oh and by the way with regards to changing the teams name, by reference of MK dons did you know, the club agreed to return the trophies and memorabilia of Wimbledon F.C. to the London Borough of Merton, and to make no claims on the history of Wimbledon F.C. thereafter.
Fred Rylands
115   Posted 23/06/2008 at 17:22:51

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Very well versed article, no hysteria, just a real measured opinion.

Sick of the flack the anti-Kirkby movements keep attracting from all sides, including friendly fire from our own. If we were truly mindless sheep, we would have sold out to the Yanks by now! At least we still have our own destiny (to an extent) within our hands.

Respect
Andy baker
116   Posted 24/06/2008 at 13:07:52

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Great piece mate.

The fact is that Kirkby is NOT Everton FC’s only option...it is Bill Kenwrights only option. Quite simply beacuse we have a chairman with absolutely zero funds, a ’virtually free’ stadium in kirkby is all he can offer.

I very much doubt whether it would be the only option if we had a chairman with money behind him. I could see a redeveloped Goodison and LCC have already told us that we can have the land behind the Bullens Road, should we wish to change the footprint of the ground.

If Kenwright wasnt in charge maybe we would be given other options, as long as BK remains however, we are detsined for the batman lights of a mid-range stadium in Kirkby.
Damian Wilde
117   Posted 24/06/2008 at 13:15:13

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EJ,

Wimbledon to MK = 70 miles. That’s a bit different to 4 miles. Plus the name change, so MK Dons situation is nothing like our situation, as I said it smacks of deperation mentioning it.

You talk about would 6 miles, 7 miles, etc. would that be acceptable, etc. Well, it is irrelevant because there are not different sites with different distances. We’re talking about one destination which is 4 miles away. As much as I hate leaving, I find 4 miles acceptable.

You talk about how you believe we should be in the City of Liverpool. In a recent post, you strongly pointed out that EFC should be in the district of Everton and if they were anywhere else you would not go. On that thread I asked you if you would not have attended if Everton had moved to Kings Dock. You did not answer.
EJ Ruane
118   Posted 24/06/2008 at 16:06:34

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Damian.

Yes, I would!

There I’ve answered.

Happy?

What’s that?

Not ’logical’?

It’s a contradiction?

Well huzzah for you!

Except...I’ve already explained that human beings aren’t logical.

And Evertonian human beings REALLY aren’t logical.

I accept that there’ll be many who don’t ’get it’.

But as you can’t leave it alone, let’s see how logical YOU really are.

The people in charge of Everton have lied constantly about money coming in, King’s Dock, how much Kirkby won’t cost (0-78 MILL) Fortress fund, etc etc.

Add to that our pathetic ’marketing’ attempts (compared to say Spurs) and season cards that don’t fucking work

If EFC were a bank, I suggest you wouldn’t trust them with a fucking bean of yours.

(denying any of that i’ll see as the debate equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and humming)

Question.

What sense (or logic) is there in promoting (as you do) something that has been ’planned’ by proven incompetent, greedy, self-serving fuck-wits?

You think THAT makes sense to me?

You (sigh) continue (nb: repeat yourself!)

"Wimbledon to MK = 70 miles. That?s a bit different to 4 miles. Plus the name change, so MK Dons situation is nothing like our situation, as I said it smacks of deperation mentioning it"

Really, well as you are repeating your argument/questions, I’ll repeat my answers (well..I’ll copy and paste em’)

"I believe my comparison is/was fair as I (unlike you) don?t believe it?s about the amount of miles, but where those miles take you.

?Many miles? took Wimbledon away from Wimbledon, where their supporters thought they belonged.

As a consequence of that move, a new Wimbledon was started - one that remained in Wimbledon.

4-5 miles will take Everton FC out of the city of Liverpool where (I believe) we belong.

As a consequence of that move, to me, they won?t be (my!) Everton FC anymore.

And If they end up in another Borough/town out of the City, I also believe it?s not fantasy to suggest the possibility that, in the future, that borough might say ’We?d like to incorporate the name.....’ etc"

By the way, to suggest the changing of the name in the future isn’t even a possibility is stupid.

So there, we’ve both repeated ourselves and we both still think the same - shall we go again or just leave it?

I have NO doubt I’m not going to change your views or opinions, so am curious as to why you think, if you keep asking the same question, I might.

Of course if you have something NEW to ask, please feel free.

Paul Lally
119   Posted 25/06/2008 at 13:21:36

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Another pathetic attempt today by the EFC board to use scare tactics regarding the stadium.
If we do not move, no money for Moyes.
How long are we going to put up with this shite from our board - OUR board ?

The demons are running amok across the world but I never thought I would see the day when demons were running our club.
More chance of Elvis turning up on your doorstep than being attacked by a terrorist but the demons want us to fear the world we live in.
Using the same tactics against its own supporters is a disgrace.

KEEP ON FIGHTING.

Redeveloping Goodison is viable and proven and can be worked on as the team gets better so a lot more financially sound- see all relevant threads.

Bring a tear to your eye with this vid -


http://youtube.com/watch?v=oUgdK3C-2GY
Roger Percy
120   Posted 26/06/2008 at 12:51:16

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As a supporter of both Everton FC and St Helens RLFC I feel like I have seen and heard all of this before.

Just like Knowsley Road, Goodison Park is old, delapidated and not fitting to the club it represents. However, every Saints fan I know is fully in support of a bigger better and financially rewarding ground, unlike Everton fans???

The lucky thing for the Saints though is they have finally agreed a site just on the other side of town (next to the M62). Problem solved.

Whilst I am in support of the ground move to Kirkby, I totally understand and sympathise with you Blues who have grown up round the corner from the ground. Kirkby must seem like miles away! But for us humble woolies, frankly its a little closer to my house so I couldn’t give a monkies!!!

Up the Toffees and the Saints!!!!!!!!!!
Adam Cunliffe
121   Posted 26/06/2008 at 15:58:55

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Hey, Roger I’m from that neck of the woods.I have to admit I am a Wigan supporter though(Up the Warriors) my point is that Saints ground cannot be compared to GP.Knowsley road doesn’t have proper toilets, I go there when Wigan come to town and I end up pissing on a wall which is used as a toilet.Goodison is no where near as bad as that.

Also Roger, Warrington’s stadium is shared with tesco isn’t it.Was there any objection from the Wire fans regarding that?
EJ Ruane
122   Posted 26/06/2008 at 18:38:13

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In English please!
Stuart Downey
123   Posted 03/07/2008 at 18:12:20

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I remember my first derby, it was the Bruce Grobbelaar testimonial at Anfield. My auntie took me, she?s got a season ticket in the Kop and she was trying to turn me. It wasn?t going to happen, Everton was already firmly in my heart, my Dad had taken me to a few games and I was going ready to cheer on the blues. Apparently, (I Don?t remember too well) one of my aunties? mates, who sits alongside, had a child of similar age attending. He told me that Liverpool were going to batter Everton, and I punched him on the nose. I think my auntie was pretty embarrassed. I was five. It?s the first and only time I have ever and will ever be in the kop.

The point I wanted to raise is that I?ve been going to goodison for the last 15 years, a season ticket for the last 6. I?ve watched constant rubbish for the vast majority of that time. The glory days were just before I was born. There was ?95, of which I?ve got a picture on my bedroom wall of myself with the FA Cup and Charity shield, next to a picture of Ferguson, Unsworth, Rideout etc.

I?ve only ever seen a mediocre Everton team. Sounds awful, I love this Everton team, but we have been 2nd tier, sleeping giants, outside the top for, or whatever term you want to use for the period I?ve been watching. I?ve watched us almost been relegated numerous times. Kev Campbell save us, Jeffers, Rooney. This last few years including reaching 4th and that Fiorientina game have been the pinnacle for me. As well as some sound Derby victories.

Personally, I voted yes to Kirkby because I think change is needed, and I don?t have the living memories. My question, finally, is, 15-20 years of 2nd tier football, are we, the fans holding onto Goodison just because of the memories?
Mark Billing
124   Posted 03/07/2008 at 22:44:41

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Stuart

Eh?

"My question is, 15-20 years of 2nd tier football, are we holding onto Goodison just because of the memories?"

Lost me. Are you suggesting that we were relegated at some point in the past 15-20 years? (Yes, yes, I know that you’re not, but that’s what you’ve written - ’2nd tier football’.) If the fare has been as poor as you allude, surely lemming like we’d have all long since been out of the exits at Goodison never to return? But in that event would we blame Goodison for the quality of the football - surely GP woul dbe an advantage as the more posts to obstruct our view the better when the football is shite? And if the football was shite, are you suggesting that we’re a bunch of masochists, holding onto piss poor memories of ’2nd tier football’ and wanting more of the same? Will we get a better quality of memory at Kirkby or elsewhere? (Didn’t see that one in the pre-vote publicity!)

If the question is really the simpler "are we holding onto Goodison just because of the memories?" (and forget the associated verbiage),well, some will be anti-move for that very reason; others (the majority of antis?) for other reasons such as they consider Kirkby not to be the deal of the century; to be no better in a variety of respects than what we already have; to be a risk not worth running for marginal return; to be ’shite’ with no substantiating evidence offered in support; etc etc. (Just as, no doubt, there’s a whole host of alternative reasons that yes voters can offer [*Sound of wailing sirens - flippant remark alert*] although I just can’t think of any valid ones!)
Tim Laynge
125   Posted 05/07/2008 at 15:58:38

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It's clear for all those who have eyes to see that is exactly what LFC want. Everton OUT .... of a booming city. Hence they monopolise concomitant earnings as well as up-and-coming youth of the city support which I gather Kirkby pales into oblivion not even being suburbian to The City.

Cannot all these Yes people with their mindless argument clearly for argument?s sake not see if they are TRUE Evertonians they are being had? For Liverpool FC that clearly means COMPETITIVE advantage. Can you not see the name NEW Anfield i.e get RID of the OLD original Everton association once for all, but keep post Heysel success History.

For me, Everton is as intricately linked to Liverpool City as are The Beatles ? more so than LFC who as I recalled once refused access to George and Ringo. Everton in Kirkby loses its ethos and is not EVERTON FC anymore... and I am not being sentimental here. All in the Corporate Entity Ethos ? once you lose that, you lose your future as this took more than a century to build.

Losing a burgeoning fanbase to become Kirkby FC with a comparatively negligible catchment area like this is nothing but suicidal IMHO. Evertonians ? wake-up! COYB.

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