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Taking the Long-Term Approach

By Karl Masters :  30/06/2008 :  Comments (36) :
The following was posted as a reply to Neil Pearse's recent article stating his belief that the Kirkby Stadium is the means to an end involving fresh investment or a takeover of the club. We feel Karl's response deserves airing as an article in its own right ? Editorial Team

Although we are on opposite sides of the fence on this subject, I can see the dilemma the Club faces. This is what you are clearly searching for answers to. There is no magic wand, no Abramovich, and what we must all understand, NO QUICK SOLUTION.

I?m sure the Board know this, but I think it was Leahy who approached them (at the Man City game in May ?04 according to BK) and really it?s been Tesco driving all this on ever since. People question his motives, but I know people who have seen him at games in London with his kids and he?s definitely a genuine fan. So is BK, but sadly this does not make them perfect.

I think they have tried to come up with the best solution for all concerned, but frankly they have failed. In my mind it really is that simple. There is an element of personal gain for all of them should they sell of course, but I really think it?s just short-term thinking on Everton?s part that has brought us to this ludicrous DK situation.

I would like to congratulate the people who have produced the very lucid, clearly explained petition for the EGM. Thank you on behalf of other Evertonians concerned at this impending leap into the dark.

Neil asks if an investor can be found without a new stadium. Possibly not, but on the other hand West Ham, Newcastle and Villa merely redeveloped what they already had before somebody appeared. So, in response to all the people who keep saying, ?give us an alternative!? here?s mine:

I?ll assume, incidentally, that the most logical solution of a shared stadium in Stanley Park is off the radar.

Aston Villa spent 10 years redeveloping Villa Park. In that time the team was fairly successful with mainly top-half finishes and a League Cup win. They expanded the footprint in the process, but maintained the traditional feel of the place and expanded capacity by a few thousand. Then Randy Lerner came along and bought the Club and cemented its financial position.

Everton have done bugger all to redevelop Goodison in nearly 40 years bar a roof on the Street End and the cheapjack Park End (only actually cost the Club £800k after grants!). BK is responsible for some of that, so is Johnson, so is Carter, so is Dr David Marsh, so are old dinosaurs like Jim Greenwood (remember him ? the cautious accountant Secretary for years?), there has been a stream of weedy Marketing men like Derek Johnston, Andy Hosie, Yes men like Dunford and Clifford Finch and people of seemingly endless bullshit like Keith Wyness.

Let?s face it, the Club has been run like a corner shop by a whole crew of people who had either no foresight, were too cautious, or plain incompetent. We?ve all had our fair share of Ticketing, Club shop, Marketing, PR disasters haven?t we? Yeah, yeah, I know... Hindsight is a wonderful thing but, since the mid-70s Everton haven?t done anything groundbreaking and neglecting Goodison while every other Club has made wholesale improvements is the biggest crime of all.

We now have to do a Villa. We have to gradually redevelop Goodison. We?re playing catch up. In 10 years time we may have the stadium we want in the right location. In the meantime, the Club should get its house in order commercially. Stop pissing around and do things properly. Sack any members of staff not up to the job and back Moyes as much as possible at he same time.

Consider this finally: The Club could borrow £50m over 25 years at 8% and pay back roughly £7m a season to do it. With an income of £50-60m that is do-able and as time went on that £7m would effectively be less every year due to inflation.

Alternatively, as happened at Celtic, a bond scheme for the fans with 50,000 of our supposed worldwide support of 900,000 paying £1000 each would get you £50m. With £50m you could redevelop the Bullens Road into a mega-stand complete with mass corporate facilities (how LCC could block this after the song and dance made that we have to stay in the city is beyond me even if the possibly to close school has to be relocated), put a second tier on the Park End and perhaps construct a Hotel or similar behind it. Then, as hopefully the Club progresses on the pitch, the Gwladys Street is redeveloped and finally the Main Stand which is still comparatively modern and can wait till last.

So there are other solutions, BUT THEY TAKE TIME! THERE IS NO QUICK FIX! That?s what BK thinks Kirkby would be. Then, depending on how he feels he either sells up and trousers the barrow load of cash or hangs around and enjoys it. I don?t expect he knows himself yet, but all I am saying is that he?s made a massive error of judgement and egged on by Leahy and Wyness he can?t or won?t see it.

I?m 42, I may have another 40 or 50 years on this planet and I say think Long Term. Good things come to those who wait, but more importantly sow the right seeds to make them happen. If Everton?s board were farmers we?d have all died of starvation years ago! Get it right on the pitch, get the Club operating properly, devise a long-term plan and make it happen! New stadia and Investment will follow.

Reader Comments

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Varun Rajwade
1   Posted 30/06/2008 at 04:36:34

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Great article.... Hats of to you!!!!

And even though I am a Yes-man, I fully agree with your points...
Bob Parrington
2   Posted 30/06/2008 at 06:18:20

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I agree. Good to have some positive suggestions. I’m 60, living overseas, but been a blue all my life. There are probably plenty like me who would agree the bond idea. I know a thousand quid is a lot for most people, particularly the younger ones with kids and mortgages so there might need to be some inventiveness beyond this. But ...... good on ya mate!
COYB
Tom Hughes
3   Posted 30/06/2008 at 06:58:46

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Karl,
Agree 100%. There are solutions, there always has been! A proper indepenantly conducted Design/decison-making process would unveil several. The whole process to date has stifled this, and for good reason...... Kirkby never was, never could be the utopia promised. Even the most basic scrutiny reveals it to be the plain jane that can’t stand comparison.
Jay Campbell
4   Posted 30/06/2008 at 07:34:54

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While Kenwright and Wyness are at the club Everton will always be left behind.

These 2 are totally out of their depth.
Paul Niklas
5   Posted 30/06/2008 at 03:28:07

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Karl, I read with Interest only to find in your last paragraph a statement of the total fucking obvious.

Don?t you think that's what they are trying to do and in that order, the investor you talk about is not there so they are doing what they can, on the pitch as we know and off it to the best of their ability.

Everything you state in that last paragraph is what I see they are doing.

We might not like some it like the location of the new stadium but it is being done.

The ignorance of some supporters at times makes me weep.

I don't call starvation a top six team , european football, and a balance sheet the envy of most clubs in the Premier League apart from them that keep going up and down.

Paul Niklas
6   Posted 30/06/2008 at 09:00:01

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Our 900,000 worldwide support paying £1000 each.

Did I just read that?

Karl, some supporters, no a lot of supporters struggle every season for a season ticket, what are you on?.

You cant get the bulk of Everton supporters to buy a replica shirt, we have the smallest ratio of sales of shirts to attendance in the premiership.

All your other points well as stated obvious or totally unrealistic, I am afraid thats what this debate is turning into, the Fantasy versus the harsh reality.

I am totally against the move to Kirkby by the way and I dont have the answers but fantasising and finger in the air ideas are the main reasons why ost businesses fail.

Enough of my rant, I will leave it to the rest of you to get real or find 200 million your self and try and do it.
Derek Turnbull
7   Posted 30/06/2008 at 09:10:37

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Putting an additional tier on the Park End is a short-term solution only.


If we wanted a long term solution then you would want the Park End rebuilt further back to allow for a larger Street End.
Erik Dols
8   Posted 30/06/2008 at 10:12:26

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Paul Niklas, I can’t tell what you do or don;t read, but I didn’t read that. Karl was talking about 50000 out of those 900000. Still ambitious and something at which I have my doubts though.

Karl, I agree with your main sentiment. I would love it if Goodison was redeveloped. Hope it does happen.
Iain Latchford
9   Posted 30/06/2008 at 09:59:19

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A few questions to the yes voters.

Let’s say for the next general election the conservative or liberal party make promises of petrol being 50p a litre, inflation being 1%, well payed employment for all that wanted it, cheap luxury housing etc etc..

Now lets say that you vote for them based on those promises.

Now lets say that petrol goes up to £2 per litre, inflation goes up to 10%, house prices rise even further and unemployment goes though the roof.

Would you be happy ??

This is exactly the same scenario. What you voted for doesn’t exsist !! How many other ways do you need it explaining to you ??

It’s not the deal of the century, it’ not a world class stadium, it’s not one of the most accesible grounds, it does put a large amount of debt around on the club, there is a plan B, the list goes on and on.

I’m not saying that you have to be pro staying at Goodsion but that doesn’t mean you have to accept the first option that comes your way.

Kirkby never was and never will be right for EFC.

Phil Bellis
10   Posted 30/06/2008 at 10:21:58

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Well said Karl, thank you.
Paul Niklas,
this Board aren’t responsible for the success on the pitch - they’ve been lucky to have Moyes turn the meagre funds they’ve begged, borrowed or got from pawning and selling the family jewels into a decent team - that’s all
In one response to your earlier white-flag post, P Thompson replied
’Mr Niklas
Just guessing but
you are under 35
you don?t know (without looking it up) who was the 4th member of the Holy Trinity
you don?t live in Liverpool or, if you do, you?re tired of being belittled by kopites so think it?s time to get out of town anyway. Was he right on all 3 - is your self-assurance due to inexperience? I’m beginning to wonder if this emotion and love for Goodison is an age thing, I hope not.
Bob Parrington - spot on: there are many Blues who could cough up £1000 in return for an assurance it would be spent properly. I tried this on the hierarchy at GP but was laughed at (does anyone know WHY the club won’t consider a rights issue? is it to do with diluting the director’s share holdings? - never understood it)
Oh, and Paul Niklas: I know many Blues, working all over the UK who would happily ’invest’ £1000. There are more Evertonians out there than you might think - you meet them wherever you go, only many of a certain age they tend not to wear replica shirts. I’m sure many exiled Blues would ’borrow a grand to rebuild a stand’. But, if you don’t ask, you won’t get.
Paul Niklas
11   Posted 30/06/2008 at 12:07:56

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5000 or 900,000 it makes no difference.

Great give a thousand pound for a nice little certificate that you helped build a new stand.

Everyone else, Tesco, Directors new investors want a return on their outlay, so yes send your money in and line the future pockets of the above also.

Rights issue- you are right on this one , why have your shares diluted when even today they are worth twice what you paid for them, but hey stick your grand in for no return and make it nice and easy for them to increase their return ten fold.

I know how many Everton fans their are and they are not merchandise junkies like other clubs its not an age thing its an Everton thing.

The board are responsible for what happens on the pitch, they employed David Moyes they back him and in Davids own words they have backed him everytime he has asked for it, so your talking bollocks on that one.

On the ridiculous point regarding age and where I am from well I am over 35 I am from the heart of Liverpool and the Holy Trinity shite you talk about I just can't bring myself to answer it as it is of no relevance whatsoever and it's this type of living in the past that stops clubs progressing and turns intelligent debate into farce.

I don't give a flying fuck about the holy trinity unless he is a 30 goal a season striker that is going to sign for us tomorrow.

I am anti-Kirkby as I have mentioned but to tar the board and Everton with the same brush on everything they do is downright ludicrous.

Stop living in the past and move on.

By the way I watched the masters football at the Echo arena and the wonderful array of ex talent we wheeled out for the day.

Look at that team and tell me do you want to go back to that. No holy trinity there either but he might have come in handy for the last rights on some of them.

Phil Bellis
12   Posted 30/06/2008 at 12:32:02

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Thank you, Paul

QED
Paul Thompson
13   Posted 30/06/2008 at 12:39:22

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Paul, seldom have I read so much I disagree with in one post - it beggars belief!
For someone so anti-Kirkby you were happy to submit a post advocating we leave the City to LFC

Did you hear that David Moyes only got the cash last close-season because he threw a strop and forced the Board to do something? What are we to believe?
This ’give a grand’ idea: I presume that’s a ’no’ from you then but, could you please enlighten us ignorami by telling us how many Evertonians there are?
Paul Niklas
14   Posted 30/06/2008 at 12:53:12

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Their is no official figure for the amount of fans but the last report I read was close to the 900,000 referred too.

I am anti Kirkby and I am not advocating leaving Liverpool, I want to stay at Goodison, if the figures are 78 million I have stated before that we should develop it and hire Anfield for two seasons.

If it is not 78 million and potentially more then I advocate finding an alterantive site, the problem in that is that Everton cant afford the alternative site without Tesco.

Thats what everyone seems to not understand.

Every manager throws a strop now and again and stamps their feet Alex Ferguson would have done the same on many occassions its either ignored or not and in the main it has not been ignored so give them credit for going out and finding it, its not as simple as David stamping his feet and getting it. It would have been endless discussions negotiating even pleading by Bill to get the money and that is a very tortuous process.
Gavin Ramejkis
15   Posted 30/06/2008 at 13:01:19

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Great article Karl, by the way if the school was to close it would remain closed due to lack of requirement; an amalgamation of local schools into an existing one or all closed and a new one built is the norm so relocation of it would not be an issue. The rights issue was raised years ago when Spurs did the same thing and disappeared without a trace with no formal statement from the club. The latest documentation would appear to indicate the sharehlders want a payout and are not willing to lose or reduce any potential profit they have made which is fair play but don’t let us hear any more then about how BK is "one of us" in the same breath.
Paul Niklas
16   Posted 30/06/2008 at 14:21:00

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Gavin, are you that blinkered that you believe people spend/invest their own mooney just for the fun of it.

Bill Kenwright is a true blue Evertonian and dont ever forget that.

Why should he or any one else for that matter lose money on a transaction like you suggest.

I know you acknowledge it as fair play but to then follow up with Bill is not one of us because he is not a charity is totally unfair.
Gavin Ramejkis
17   Posted 30/06/2008 at 14:36:44

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Paul blinkered? I am not claiming to be but the usual shite of true blue Bill who is the same true Blue Bill that won’t even let loose some of his profit margin for the club he loves? Don’t talk shite, you are an Evertonian so am I since when did that make us demi gods beyond anyone bar the RS? How can anyone forget true Blue Bill when he’ll be forever etched in history as the serial liar that is trying to move Everton from the city it belongs in to an overflow town and the same that claimed the club would be completely open to it’s fans and he would move aside should he need to, well how would you put his stadium if not the defining thing to put Everton in the shop window? Oh that would be as the documents now in the public domain say the shareholders want to profit for themselves and not the club?

naivety

noun
lack of sophistication or worldliness

Just because Blue Bill says so doesn’t make it so.
John Clarke
18   Posted 30/06/2008 at 12:42:20

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I think that is a very well written piece. It’s not overly sentimental, nor is it impractical. It is all very do-able. It’s actually a piece that has made me approach the problems of EFC in a new way. It’s brilliant in it’s simplicity. I, like many thousands read TW everyday. And the emotional battles that we are fighting, I say we, because I consider all of us as Evertonians and we all want the best for our club.
We are different ages, so have different memories of success or failure or, as at the moment, positive feelings.
The last few years have and I say this in terms of league position, been successful.
The reason I emphasise league position, is the continual venting of anger about the quality of play to reach that position.

To return, to the points that Karl made. I believe it is a big mistake to leave Goodison Park. There are many reasons and very few of them are sentimental.

If you look at the pure economics of the move and wouldn’t that be a luxury. But, with what we apparantly know about the economics, it doesn’t add up. The money we have to contribute to this move, will have to be borrowed. The figures vary from 50m pounds to 100m pounds, plus or minus the odd mill.
What Karl suggests is that this money is used to re-develop Goodison Park.
It’s a ten year plan. And frankly, under the the present economic climate, I wouldn’t challenge it.
As we sit here and ponder Evertons future, oil prices skyrocket, interest rates are volatile. There are so many variables, that will effect the future attendances of our club if they relocate outside the city.
Of course, there would be a honeymoon period when attendances would probably increase, but would, or could this be maintained.
Possibly if there was major success on the pitch, but this is not a definite.
We could find a major drop in attendance, allied with a lack of new supporters from the city of LIverpool.
And we are being told, that we must move, we have to move, to save ourselves, to move into the future, to make us attractive to a potential sugar daddy.
Are we to wear a short skirt and suspenders, on the off chance that a despot from Thailand, or a member of the Russian mafia, or an American, desperate to leave the sinking ship, should find us, of some interest.

We would be away from our home, in debt and frankly no more than a better supported Bolton.

We have to stay in Everton, we have to redevelop Goodison Park, we have to continue to build on the current success and taking the main points of Karls post, target marketing, particularly in the SE Asian region.
And as he suggests, get rid of the dead wood.

And as regards the 1000 quid, I would be delighted to be a share holder in Everton.

So you know were I’m coming from.
I’m 55, I live in Australia.
I was born in Liverpool, off Aigburth Road, the Dingle end, near the bottom of Park Road.
I lived in Liverpool on and off until 1989. The odd couple of years in London.
So, yes, I’ve seen the best of Everton, but I’ve seen some bad times. I’ve been back on holiday quite a lot and even came back to live for two years. I have followed Everton all my life, my grandfather played non-league football and had a trial for Everton, my father a supporter all his life, I think about the club everyday of my life.
We all do and want only the best.

But let us not be taken away from our home on promises of better things.
Look at Villa Park, St.James Park, Old Trafford,
grounds, that were fine for the old days and made good for the new days.
Yes, I know it takes money, that’s why we look at a ten year plan and Karls suggestions.
And let’s not be fooled that Kirby will solve our problems. It will bring as many new problems as it solves.

And isn’t it amazing how much we love our club that we rant and rave on Toffeeweb everyday of our lives. Some posts becoming so abusive they are rightly removed.
We all want the best.
We think this can be attained in different ways.
That some of us are misguided, or just wrong.
This is one thing we HAVE to get right.

Now is not the time to move, now is the time to stabilise the present success at Goodison Park, while rebuilding the ground that has been our home for 116 years and that can take us to the next level, the level we all aspire to.
A move to Kirby will destroy us.
Ask all the poor buggers who were rehoused in the so called promised land, way back in the 60’s.
The stigma is still, unfortunately with us. Kirby was never really a success, nor are most new towns. And now Everton football club are expected to leave the city of Liverpool, having been part of the very fabric of the city since 1878 and relocate to Kirby.

I’m sorry, but the only people who could come up with a plan like that, are people who have not exhausted every avenue, every possible alternative solution, people who believe that an organisation such as Tesco actually conducts it’s business in a caring way.

Tesco doesn’t give a XXXX about Everton Football Club.

Christopher Mowll
19   Posted 30/06/2008 at 15:51:31

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My god John ? your response was longer than Karls article! I agree with both of you boys - Karl ? an excellent article ? I couldn?t agree with you more. I just hope BK is reading TW today.
Steven May
20   Posted 30/06/2008 at 18:43:28

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Karl,

I’m not disagreeing with what you say (and I have always been in favour of some sort of rights issue), but....

You make much of the improvements made at Villa Park and I have to agree with you, the ground and the surrounding area does seem to be much improved since my days of frequent visits. I would, however, raise some points where the situation is significantly different from EFC/GP:

- There is significantly more room around Villa Park. The extension to the stand next to the park goes over the road and, in the GP example, would require the destruction of houses.
- During this period of redevelopment AVFC have had little threat to their position as the senior Birmingham club.
- In terms of corporation support I would think that AVFC hold the "RS" position.

Once again, I’m not saying that you’re wrong, just it’s not always as simple as it might seem.
Karl Masters
21   Posted 30/06/2008 at 18:43:34

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Paul Niklas:

How do you know that people won’t invest £1000?

I’m sure that you know that Arsenal had their debenture scheme. Whilst EFC is not in the affluent South East, a scaled down version of that plus other ideas could raise the money.

By other ideas, how about the stadium lower concourse being lined with ’name bricks’ at a level from waist high to eye level? For your thousand pounds you literally get your name set in stone into the fabric of the stadium forever. In the future your kids and grandchildren can visit the brick every season and proudly tell their mates, ’ ’look, there’s my dad, and look there’s my uncle - they helped pay for this place to be built.’ We all go to football for traditional, partly sentimental reasons as we get older. Crikey, there’s no logic in it is there!!!!! You can play on that and we all want to be remembered for something don’t we? Everyone wins.

Stop and think about it, Paul. Done the right way there are umpteen ways the Club could raise the money and give the supporters something back as well.

Other Clubs find a way. This is not Fantasy Island, but maybe you’re just too cynical. There are no boubt other people of your ilk out there, but as the responses today prove, there are plenty of others like me who don’t share your views.
Karl Masters
22   Posted 30/06/2008 at 19:08:46

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Steven:

You are right, of course, that nothing is ever simple. However, whilst Villa may be the biggest club in the midlands (somebody somewhere once said that?s like being Champions of Madagascar by the way!) Everton are at least as big a Club as Villa, even with LFC right next door.

If you think about it, done right staying at Goodison is our USP. Whilst many clubs have torn down stands and decepit old open terraces and replaced them with modern concrete identikit stands they have lost that old time atmosphere because the ground is radically altered. If Goodison were redeveloped in a similar vein to know with overlapping tiers of seats, a big Home end with a balcony over it, crosses on the stands etc, in the future we could market it to the corporate sector as ?the real football experience in a traditional style stadium? rather than sat in a greenhouse in a soulless concrete bowl as at so many other grounds.
Paul Niklas
23   Posted 30/06/2008 at 21:37:15

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Karl, I applaud your optimism and welcome it also.

I am in no way a cynical person, just a realist.

In todays corporate world why should they without a gauranteed return, everyone else wants that.

I believe a share issue would be helpful and raise some cash but the dilution of shares is something the current board would not want.

Even if they did want it the control element would be lost to them which from an investor perspective might cause a problem.

A new investor might insist the control stays with the current shareholding.

Or a potential new investor wanting the 75% controlling stake would not want to negotiate with 50,000 individuals to attain it.

Because whilst 50 million would be nice to raise the club to be successfull beyond the stadium needs 40 million on top a year for players etc to win anything , You cant keep going out and issue more shares it will have diminishing returns for all.

The real answer is a total new investor who will inject a regular amount over a five year period say 200 million, but they would want a minimum 50% stake for that and potentially even more.

So its not easy either way charitable donations as you suggest are great no reason why you cant do that now, set it up and bring the money in you dont need the club for that.

You have thought out of the box mow with the idea go and implement it and for every 1,000 you get in take a 10% cut in great entrepreneurial style for your efforts.


The board would, Tesco would and a new investor would.
Tommy Gibbons
24   Posted 30/06/2008 at 22:01:02

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The long term approach... Therein lies the shortsighted NO voter. What part of We Have No Money don?t you understand?! How long would it take to collect, adminster, register, etc the £1000 per share issue?

The plain fact is, is that Everton FC had run out of time, it had to make a decision, either follow the money to Kirkby with all its attendant problems but a supportive local council, or stay at Goodison Park with no money and all its attendant problems and an unsupportive local council.

Answer me this: where would you take your business? Now, even though at a business level it was a no-brainer, the board actually gave its punters a say in the matter, in fact it gave its punters a veto! On its business?! Ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous!

Nevertheless, it went ahead with a vote, using the country's top electoral commisiion to oversee and ensure the fairest vote system available. The vote went ahead and the majority backed the board's decision to continue with its plans to relocate to Kirkby. Without that vote, we wouldn?t be discussing the issue now as the decision would already have been made and either the building would have commenced or not as the case might be.

The club are now back in 1891: do they stay or do they go! There must have been a lot of dissenters back then when Everton left Anfield to take the chance of building 20 minutes away from their former home ground.. Rather like we are doing now, 20 minutes away from our current ground. (In 1891 the main mode of transport to the match was to walk, now its the car, 20 minutes to walk a mile, 20 minutes to drive 4 miles). Oh yeah.. and Goodison as it became known was outside the arbitrary city boundary at the time!!

We took the chance then, we should take the chance now! Nothing really changes with time, it's the same old problems, it's just that it's happening now to us!

Jim Lloyd
25   Posted 30/06/2008 at 22:45:32

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Karl,
I commented on another thread, that thinkl your post was extremely well thought out, logical and doable. Well, I didn’t actually say all that but that is what went through my mind, as soon as I read your post. We, the fans, could play a part in the regeneration of goodison Park. The problem lies in getting the board to think in that way.
I don’t believe, like you, that Mr kenwrght just did his best but got things wrong. I believe he is intent on keeping hold of the chairmanship of EFC come what may.
However, you have set out a way that he can show us all that this isn’t the case. He can take your proposal on board and run with it; thereby showing all the doubters, of which I an one, that we are wrong. I doubt that he will do so though.

This doesn’t take away the essential logic of you argument.You have shown us how we can tackle the biggest obstacle we will face in our lifetime. It can be done...if there is a will to do it. Then, truely would we be the people’s club.
John Clarke, what a wonderful, lucid, and heartfelt expression of what should make all Evertonians proud to be just that...Evertonians. I hope to God that your piece will encourage us all to commit to staying at Goodison. Maybe we could start a petition, or whatever it’s called to support Karl’s suggestion and support those shareholders who are calling for an EGM.
At least that way, the shareholders would have the backing of the rest of us, to show Mr Kenwright that there is an alternative. Then he could tell us why it wouldn’t work.
Paul, I really don’t understand the points that you make. It’s probably me, but how can you not wish to go to Kirkby (which I presume you meant by voting no) yet counter every suggestion which might give us a chance not to make that fatal mistake?
Paul Niklas
26   Posted 30/06/2008 at 23:45:27

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I dont want to go to Kirkby Jim because I want to stay at Goodison.

I dont counter anything what i do is state why albeit it might be a good idea the reason why I dont think it would work.

The reasons I stated above about share issues and the like are factual reasons why the board or any investor would not be supportive of that route.

Basically the bulk of people on this site in particular do not want to go to Kirkby there are those that dont care either way and there are those that want the move for reasons of its nice to have a shiny new stadium.

Financially it seems to me that an extra 10 million of profit ( I hope its profit) does not fully justify the 78 million of spend on a stadium that I dont think we will fill every week. So the numbers start to look very different when that is the case.

My basic gripe with all of this is the distinct lack of any other alternative to Kirkby or the redevelopment of Goodison, I have seen suggestions but nothing that worldbeating that would move the desire of the board to look at something else.

Because as it seems we have 78 miilion to spend although I believe that 78 million would be secured against the future value of the club and its stadium.

So with only 78 million to spend without Tesco ten who forks out the rst if we cant do the development at Goodison.

Bestway just wanted to sell their site, no contribution to the build, Walton Hall park is just a possibility but without a benefactor/partner we cant affordd it.

I offer reasons why things cannot be done because I have no idea at this point based on the true finances of the club and potential partners what is realistic, I have t accept that the best option based on the clubs ability to fund it is the one they are going.

Therefore I trust them, although I dont like the decision I am not going to be difficult for the sake of it as I offer no bettter alternative the same as all other ideas to date.

Karls idea has some merit but its to short term and falls flat on its face the next time another 50 million is asked for which wont be to long after.
Paul Thompson
27   Posted 01/07/2008 at 09:34:39

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From Paul Niklas’ article ’Make anything of It you want’
(quote)
The bottom line is we are who we are and we are proud and whilst I hate everything I have said here unfortunatley commercially we are light years behind them (LFC) and in my opinion will never catch them up. So we have to be happy with something else and measure ourselves very differently than just the benchmark that is them (LFC)(unquote)

Paul you say, above ’I am in no way a cynical person, just a realist’; I’d say you’re a practising nay-sayer, a professional pessimist and a defeatist who should stay under the duvet.
If an earlier generation had have had your outlook, we’d all be speaking German
Karl Masters
28   Posted 01/07/2008 at 11:29:14

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Paul Niklas.

This is not a short term idea, it’s an idea that gets the ball rolling significantly in redeveloping Goodison. £50M would basically sort out two sides of he ground. That’s half the job done, end of.

Do not mix in the need for cash to spend on the team in the coming years. That’s separate to the Stadium. Who knows, keep the progress going on the pitch, sort out two sides of the stadium with a comparatively modern Main Stand and the iconic Street End still standing and an Investor may well come along. Maybe not, but it’s surely more likely. It’s actually what has happened at Villa, Newcastle, West Ham while at Celtic they now have a half decent stadium just by getting the fans involved. Even Rangers financed totally rebuilding Ibrox in the late 70’s / early 80’s via their Supporters’ Lottery schemes.

If BK is such a great Evertonian and thinks that the Club is more important than him, why would he think this such a bad idea, even if it dilutes his shareholding? I don’t know how much he put in of his own in 2000, but it can’t have been much more than £5m judging by what Paul Gregg said. Surely, he should be happy to eventually walk away one day with that £5m (index inked to inflation) but with all the memories, all the kudos of being the man who redeveloped Goodison, appointed Moyes etc . It appears, however, that he and others are looking to multiply their ’investment’ many times over and that’s why nobody trusts the Board. It appears they are putting self interest above the Club’s interests. A conflict of interests it seems.



Simon Gilmovitch
29   Posted 01/07/2008 at 12:53:42

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Can anybody tell me what % of Wimbledon fans, still follow MK Dons could this figure tell us anything about projected crowds @ DK?. My worry is that the next generation of Evertonians just will not be there if we move out of Liverpool. I think we could be ok for a few years but in the long term I just have worries.
Paul Niklas
30   Posted 01/07/2008 at 14:26:07

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Karl not confused about anything.

But you hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph, Why should he walk away with his initial investment , he as the chairman and shareholder is entitled to a return, he could have lost his initial investment.

You seem to think people invest for reasons of goodwill, he is entitled to receive what he can maximise from any deal.

This is the problem with some Everton supporters your whole argument becomes ludicrous the minute you start to expect people to do things for nothing.

Maybe you are a communist or something or one of the 70s militant tendancy that nearly killed the city of Liverpool.

Capitalism is here to stay and their is nothing wrong with that.

You also seem to think its easy running a Football club, Bill and others would have had sleepless nights and considerable stress and pressure in attaining funds for Everton at considerable reputational risk,you expect they should do all that for nothing.

Get real Karl.

As I have said if you feel that strongly about your idea get on with it I will gladly attend the ceromonial meeting when you hand the cheque to Bill to 50 million, or do you want the board to do that for you.

Final point is they control Everton and they are entitled to what they can get out of it.

Do you think the Glazers or Randy learner or are doing this for fun they will benefit from it as they are entitled to because they put their own money up in the first place.

Let us all know when you are starting the campaign to get your £1000 per man I will be interested to see the result.



Paul Niklas
31   Posted 01/07/2008 at 14:46:13

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Karl two other points.

You mention spend the 50 million on two stands and keep the momentum on the pitch, who is going to fund that I suppose you expect the board to do that, the increased revenue form Kikby is forecast to be about 10 million per season.

Not really enough to fund the money you really need to challenge for the champions league is it.

Conflict of interest- how do you make that out they as a board own the bulk of shares in this club therefore they ultimatley call the shots.

So you bought your own house and decided to buid an extension to improve the value of it at your cost, but you pissed your neighbours off because of it, they accuse you of a conflict of interest because you will line your pockets when you sell it, versus doing nothing with it and letting it rot.
Paul Niklas
32   Posted 01/07/2008 at 15:57:41

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Karl, my last point unless you come back and completley slag me off, i dont mind a bit of flack though, healthy debate is good.

Check on this site if you have not already done so on the Celtic share issue and see all the pitfalls this would be componded even more at Everton due to the nature of the current share holding and current borrowings and securities against those borrowings.

First charges against assets for example is a complicated financial quagmire.
Marvin Thomas
33   Posted 01/07/2008 at 20:15:34

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Paul Niklas:

"I don’t give a flying fuck about the holy trinity"

Oh dear. Bad. Really bad.

Allan Ball - RIP

COYB
Karl Masters
34   Posted 01/07/2008 at 21:20:32

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Paul Niklas:

Bloody hell, you keep it coming don’t you!!! :)

Don’t tell me to get real please. I am fully aware of how the business world operates.

However, football is not a ’normal’ business is it?

We don’t attend with a any guarantee of what we’ll see or the result or quality of football do we?

We don’t drive hundreds of miles across the UK to watch matches to make money do we? We don’t invest in a Home shirt that looks almost identical to the last one to make a return on it do we?

Football is a very illogical pasttime, seemingly supported by many Banks in an illogically risky way by letting Clubs run up debts they may never be able to pay off ( eg Leeds) Players aren’t even a tangible asset on the balance sheet. Normal business rules seem to be ignored, the biggest one being the notion of investing to make a return.

Chairmen and owners have always laughed at the idea of making any money out of football. It’s their own plaything and fair play to many of them effectively sharing their wealth with the other Club’s fans. I think we all know what will happen to this new breed of owner who thinks he’s gonna cash in one day - they will almost certainly be disappointed or leave their clubs in financial chaos when the penny drops.

Therefore, why should Kenwright ( who plays on being one of us all the time incinuating he’s doing us a favour and not in it for the cash ) expect to be any different? Walk away with what you put in is more than most Chairmen / Owners have managed.

Many fans would buy in for a stake in a new stadium. And, No, I’m not going to organise it. It’s not my job, it’s Everton FC’s. It’d be a good job for... let me think now...a CEO...but maybe he is too busy running other compainies of his to really earn his £400k pa with Everton. I am merely making a suggestion and making the point that using some imagination there are other answers out there.

I have said enough on this now. By all means get anything else off your chest, but please don’t accuse me of being naive and snidely suggest I should do Everton’s work for them. I am a fan like you, but I cannot believe the blinkers this Club is seemingly never able to shake off.
Paul Thompson
35   Posted 02/07/2008 at 10:08:06

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Marvin & Karl
I once wondered why anyone would invent a keyboard lock...Paul Niklas has shown why
(No Paul, I don’t want any more ’points’, thank you)
Paul Niklas
36   Posted 02/07/2008 at 11:07:02

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No points, I needed a lock for this thread, hit a raw nerve I am afraid.

Any way better than reading the OS and Osmans go karting trip.

I will shut up now.

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