Bill Kenwright ? anytime

Can we have a bit less of this snidely "so-called fans" put-down. If you are going to post on this website, one thing we require you to accept is that the people posting are all Everton fans ? just like you are ? except that they have a differing opinion. Thanks.

Dave, I don?t think anyone doubts that he is an Evertonian ? some of us just take offence to being, how shall I put it, errrrm, misled on certain issues.

Whilst Bill Kenwright may not be perfect, I don’t think it can be denied that the club is in a much better state on the field, financially and commercially than we were when he took over. I, like most Evertonians, am frustrated by issues such as Kirby and the lack of ’buyers’, but I think Bill has to take some credit for a job well done.

Brierley, this is absolutely shameful, using an Everton Legends ill-health to construct a straw man attack on BK?s critics.

Contemptible, I can?t understand why the editorial team allowed it to be published.

I think Andy King is in a pretty good position to give his views. The people in the know at our club, for example David Moyes etc led us to believe Phil Neville was a huge positive influence for us; finally this is being accepted. Why should the same person and many ex-members of our playing staff be so wrong about Bill? I'm not saying he's perfect but I can't think of that many more people I would want in charge.

Dave Brierly, you say you’re not one of BK’s biggest devotees, why not? What are your reservations about Kenwright? I would hazard a guess to say they’re exactly the same reservations that the rest of us have. He is a bullshiter saying things such as "24/7" and "watch this sapce..." and "I wouldn’t sell Rooney for £50 million". Surely you can understand a lot of fans’ frustrations?

I don’t really doubt his intentions but these are worrying times when clubs around us all have money to burn and we don’t have a pot to piss in.

Bill?s a good chairman who?s heart is in the right place. Sure he?s made mistakes and he?ll make more and he?ll probably not be totally candid with us about them. What public figure in his position ever is? But for me, he has done two great things:
(a) He brought Moyes in.
(b) He didn?t kick Moyes out.

"Job well done"? Last summer our net outlay was approx £2.5 million for Pienaar and that is if you don't take into account we sold McFadden in Jan and brought no-one in, so If Kenwright is not to be ?congratulated on a job well done?.

If a Chairmen's job is to find cash, he didn't... plus the Wyness saga, Kirkby debacle and constant gushing arse-licking of Moyes ("Best in the world!!"). Despite this, his heart is undeniably in the right place and he would be perfect if only he could find us £30 million for one summer spending spree without the need to sell anyone!!!

Oh dear, some people really are fooled very easily aren?t they!! I don?t want to call Bill names, vilify him, hang him from the rafters. I just want him to go away and let someone better qualified and with more financial muscle take over. It may well be true that many of us couldn?t run a paper round or whatever it was you said but, to me, it is equally as obvious that Bill is way out of his depth owning a Premier League football club. Of course he?s looking 24/4 though..... pfft!

Kenwright was a popular chairman. Ok, he?s told the odd fib, but he would have been forgiven.

When I first heard of his plans to move to Kirkby, I thought he was misguided or being badly advised, but the lengths to which he has gone to mislead and deceive the supporters of the club he claims to love has alienated him forever with many fans.

I could forgive the odd porkie, but I see leaving our City to the sworn enemy by moving to Kirkby, against the wishes of tens of thousands of true blues, as absolute betrayal. For this reason alone I want him gone.

To the anti-BK brigade I just say this. Be careful what you wish for.

Sure, he could magic up £30m out of thin air so we could live the dream for a few years then find ourselves in administration and battling it out with Leeds Utd for a play-off place in Division 1.

Or maybe he could sell out to a rich Arab as drooled over in a recent (spoof?) thread on this board. It won?t be long, maybe 5 years at most, till we are the only English club in the Premier League. Bring it on. I don?t want my club to be the temporary plaything of a Yank or a Russian or an Arab. I?ll stick with BK any day and when the Sky bubble bursts, as it will because nothing is forever, we will still be able to sing If You Know Your History and mean it.

David Moyes coined the phrase "class and dignity" to describe Everton Football Club. It hasn?t gone unnoticed. Many in the media including the excellent Henry Winter endorsed what Moyes said and applauded him for saying it.

We have come a million miles in the past 7 years under BK and DM; don?t let?s throw it all away for a few days in the sun followed by a visit to the skin cancer clinic.

As time goes by, I get more and more annoyed with Kenwright's supporters than the man himself... my god what does the man have to do? The man is so see-through its ridiculous!!

You guys are the guys that would pay £10,000 for a £2,500 double glazing job because the salesman smooth-talked you; you're the guys that get conned into buying all the trips by the holiday reps instead of going down to the harbour and getting them for half-price; you're the guys that buy all the useless insurance policies on your electrical goods from the retail parks...

Kenwright is getting away with destroying this club and the problem is too many people either don't care enough or they believe him. I?m ashamed of you all, it just wouldn?t happen at United or City or Villa ? we have too many mugs amongst us.

Dave, I must be one of the "so called" Evertonians who has supported the club for over 50 years.

I would also emphasise that I have and do own a number of companies and have previously been on the board of a few PLCs.

So I guess that qualifies me to make a judgement on a man whose heart may be in the right place but his head, mouth and intentions are surely not.

I personally can't stand deceipt or liars which is one of the reasons I got out of the Corporate bullshit that goes on. But to have your head up someone?s arse because he does what most genuine scousers would do "Enquire after one of our own who has fallen ill" smacks of desperation to find something to praise.

Now call him a lucky chairman if you want because Moyes and the players are punching well above any expectations we should have given the lack of backing they have had and he stumbled across Elstone who after 5 attempts appears to be a half decent Chief Executive... but please dont come on here thinking he?s the Chairman of the Century.

He has already racked up debts of over £60 million from a situation he inherited of around £5 million and has presided over continuous operating losses until last year despite the £27 million from Rooney.

He has sold our club down the river to two speculators who are dying to get their money back many times over out of Destination Kirkby.

This is the same man who stated categorically that "The Fortress Sports Fund cheque will be in the bank in the morning" while stabbing his former best friend and financial backer Paul Gregg in the back. Earl and Green will not be so easy hence why the supposed sale of EFC is so complex and difficult to achieve.

Don't you even question a man who is supposed to be "El Supremo" who makes statements like: "I dont know what goes on at EFC I?m only a supporter like you" ... "I have been looking for investment 24/7" ? WHAT, FOR 8 YEARS!?!

Goodison Park was "My Blue Palace" one year and then "Desolation Kirkby" was "A truly world class stadium with the best transport plans in the country"... It makes me want to vomit but you go ahead and knock the True Blues who see right through him.

Yes Jay, just yes. Ticka-fuckin-boo my son, you have absolutely nailed it. Yet still there will be people who can’t see through it and fall for a bit of smarm and soundbite. Makes me sick.

I?ll accept both views here despite mine being pro-Kenwright. I don?t think the bloke is a liar, he?s probably just reverted to human instinct at times and been quoted as saying what he would like to happen and would like to deliver and it probably frustrates him as much as us that certain projects or initiatives haven?t materialised.

But despite the viral criticism, he stays on. The facts speak for themselves. The club has not just stabilised, but improved with him & Moyes at the helm. Anyone who doubts or questions that is ignoring the simple statistic of what is happening on the pitch (i.e. where it matters).

I know he has generated frustration and anger. Financial backing, the Kirkby thing (which I am uncomfortable with). Again, personally he is facing the problems and challenges that anyone in charge of Everton Football Club during the period he has overseen would have faced. No easy choices and you will never satisfy everyone ? contrary to Tony Blair?s ill-advised philosophy, no-one can be all things to all men. When in the hot-seat you will inevitably implement policies and strategies that upset as many as they please.

Personally, I like what we?ve got. Newcastle went down the money-equals-success route and failed. Tottenham do it every season. City are yet to prove themselves. Chelsea - after witnessing how their fans behaved after the Cup Final and their non-celebration... keep it.

We?re Everton and no money in the world can buy our character and should never be able to change the philosophy of this club. Mega-bucks can sometimes spell more trouble than it resolves. Look at what?s happening across the park.

Maybe I?m blinkered by blue-tinted glasses but surely it would be even more satisfying to do it through steady progress built on the solid foundations that Moyes has put in place .... supported by Blue/Black Bill!?

Andy King - get well soon. Your summing up of this club is bang on. Let's never ever become Chelsea!

Whatever side of the fence you sit on, surely you must see positive in what is being achieved? Don?t panic because someone spends £25m on a player, it happens every year. Tiny Tim cost £2m ..... have faith and belief in what Moyes is doing.

Enough from me. Best wishes to all Evertonians, regardless of which side of the Kenwright fence you sit on.

Danny, Danny, Danny...honestly, you make me want to self harm. HOW, just how, has he "stabilised the club"? "It?s what is happening on the pitch that matters"?? Really, are you quite sure?

The ONLY thing Kenwright has done right, and it has saved him the lynching he deserves, is find David Moyes and stick by him when others probably wouldn?t have. Aside from that he has done zilch of any good.

Massively increased the debt, moving us to a stadium half the fanbase don't want, told lie after lie after lie (I know, he?s always mis-quoted)... it really makes me ill. Jay has covered all the salient points and spelt it out in crystal clear detail yet STILL you are saying he has "stabilised the club". My lord, pass me the sleepers so I can end this...

Neil, Neil, Neil,

As Michael rightly states in his opening response, accept that others have different opinions.

Were we really stable in the Johnson era? Lynching he deserves ? strong words fellah. Jay has spelt it out the way you believe and understand ? I have no problem with that, it's your opinion. I see things differently.

More than half the fan base wanted Kendall sacked in late 1983 (in fact probably about 80%). Just goes to show you never know what?s around the corner and can?t ever really hand on heart really predict.

Good luck finding the sleepers, I?d rather take my chances with a season ticket to see what happens next as I don?t think things are as doom and gloom as you make out.

So, Richard Jones, sorry to take you to task here but I?m curious... how exactly is Bill Kenwright "destroying the club"?

Yes, Destination Kirkby will alienate a substantial faction of probably older, more traditional fans, who may fall by the wayside... to be replaced in all probability by a larger horde of younger fans that have no concept of terracing and will be perfectly happy to watch Everton without those hideous obstructed views in a modern (albeit cheap) stadium. Hardly "destroying the club".

Racking up debt as the only "investment" seems to be in the form of conditional loan guarantees from his rich budies... It may indeed be a dangerous path to venture down... but all the other clubs are doing it ? and most to a far greater extent than Everton FC... Hardly "destroying the club"?

Overseeing the final demise of an awful commercial contract with JJB, after somehow getting that idiot Wyness out of there... to be replaced by Robert Elstone, a man who has yet to attract anything by way of critical comment... Hardly "destroying the club"??

Keeping faith with the best thing he has going for him and the the club, third-time LMA Manager of the Year, David Moyes. Personally I have strong reservations about the negative, defense-dominated football he has us playing... but he is hardly "destroying the club"???

I?m a pretty harsh critic of all things Blue (apparently) but I take exception to this claim of yours. Even all the lies he has told have certainly not had the effect of "destroying the club", which, despite everything that has happened, is probably in the rudest of health at this time.

So please, educate us: how exactly is Bill Kenwright "destroying the club"?

Jay has summed up most of the points admirably. The thing that grates me was he will do anything, say anything, to cling on to control.

The infamous Fortress Sport Fund when Christopher Samuelson was wheeled out at an AGM (was unfortunately roasted by some fans, but those kind of tactics do deserve that I’m afraid).

The following year when FSF was raised, he laughed it off. Gregg saw right through him, and sold out to more of his pals. (I’m not saying for one minute Gregg had the best interests of EFC at heart).

Quite simply, I don’t trust the guy. He’s likable, I have no doubt he’s passionate about EFC, and he does want what’s best for EFC - but on his terms.

That in itself may be a barrier to investment.

And lastly, to the misty-eyed above who think we can continue to challenge when others are bringing in Russian / American / Arab money. We won’t be able to sustain this. As well as crazy transfer fees, they are driving up wages. Sooner or later we will be a stepping stone club. The big 4 (in terms of money not success) will become the big 6-8. And we’ll still maybe be "best of the rest", meaning anything above 9th is "punching above our weight".

We all keep talking about house of cards and collapse, but if it doesn’t happen soon, when will it?

He’s not destroying the Club. He’s attempting to improve it.
People are human. Often times those of good intention fortunate enough to be in a position of influence and authority make errors.
Kenright, I think, has his heart in the proper place. He’s trying.
And, he’s made mistakes.
We could do better, and we could likewise do much, much worse.
Praise to him for keeping a steady ship and being loyal when it counts (read Moyes).
Shame on him for fibbing - but keep in mind in a business environment he may be doing it for what he believes is ultimately in the best interest of EFC.
Jay - I’m like you. Left corporate life (America) because I just couldn’t stand the "game." The handshaking, backstabbing, faux loyalty, bottom line at whatever human cost bullshit. It’s why I walk around barefoot in my 1500 square foot plant now. But I did know a few CEOs who had good hearts who made decisions they felt were ultimately good for their companies, only to have the decisions pull a 180 degree turn and be a noose around their necks. They did what most humans would - painted the picture in flowers, said, "slap some lipstick on this pig" and ploded stubbornly forward. Why? Because they wrongly believed their decsions were in the best interests of the company they loved despite the evidence (read Kirkby).
Bill’s no different. Good heart. Made some questionable / bad decisions.
I agree with Danny O’Neill’s measured response wholeheartedly. This isn’t black and white. He’s made mistakes. He should be criticized on many levels.

But things could be much worse under different ownership.

And the club has and will continue to improve. I hope we do it under Kenright. As you Brits say, it’s a proper football club.

FTRS, F Chelsea and their Russian mob millions, F Shiteeh and their lottery ticket, F Spurs and their spend-thrift ways which never work.
Lastly to Jay - The most successful Board members I’ve ever met have a great gift. Humility. They understand they may not have all the answers, so they appoint people of good character and heart to run their day-to-day operations.
Surely you recognize Kenright has done this. Surely you recognize that despite his "company" not breaking the heights he’s saved it from the depths by putting people in a position to avoid the death-knoll of the drop, and standing by those people when things aren’t so rosy. He’s created a stable, conservative, workman-like culture which has seen his "company" improve.

It’s boards that fire talented folks that ultimately create instability and destroy security - and start the downward spiral to bankruptcy. Or should I say Championship football?
Don’t underestimate the value of a stable environment like we currently enjoy. One that new ownership / investment could easily destroy. And know this: I’m not knocking you at all. Your points are very valid and believe me I see your arguement. But if not Bill, then who? Again as I stated above: Russians, Yanks (like me), Arabs? One response to those paths:

The grass is always greener where the dogs are shitting.

Well, certainly we?ve all been here before on this particular one! And no new information that I can see: very good and unsurprising given the man that he called Andy King ? get well soon, Andy, I can still remember that goal ? but that hardly settles the issue about whether he is a good owner / Chair of our football club.

The problem I think now is to get any kind of balanced view about Bill and the situation. For example, we are led into a silly debate about whether he has ?stabilised? the club or not. Obviously he has stablised the club (by the way our debt levels are low and sustainable compared to most of the clubs around us). But this doesn?t necessarily make him the best guy to take us forward (I certainly don?t think he is, because, like it or not, we need more money). But then again, I am pleased that he has not flogged the club for his own personal gain to the first guy who?s come along waving pound notes (and then loading debt on the club a la so many others).

You know, it can be the case that he has done some things well, and some things not so well!! It?s not all black and white (or black and blue). None of us liked Wyness (bad Bill), most of us prefer Elstone (better Bill). He appoints the CEOs (and, er, the manager) and he should quite rightly be cricised for Wyness and given some credit for Elstone.

And why do the anti-Bills always resort to the cheap jibe of saying that those on the other side have been ?hoodwinked? and are ?mugs?? For myself, I would consider myself much more of a Realist, perhaps a somewhat cynical Realist at times, than a Romantic. As Jay says, there are lies and public games in the corporate world ? so get over it. That?s how the world works. Bill is hardly worse than most. What boy scout world are you ?Bill is the devil? people living in?

And finally, what is missing most from this debate is, comically, any sense of perspective at all. Reading this thread you would think there were hosts of shining examples of wonderful club owners all about. Yet around us there are owners who really may come close to ?destroying? their football clubs (Newcastle, Liverpool, West Ham, Portsmouth certainly come to mind, and the £50M plus yearly interest charge to pay off the Glazer debts at Man U is not exactly helping that club). So get a grip and get some perspective.

Bill is at times a bit of an annoying showman (yep, guess what, he?s a ?theatre impresario?!), and he?s clearly a much tougher businessman than he likes to portray with his rather fake cuddly persona. He?s actually stabilised this club, and now we need someone with more money. He ain?t the devil, and he ain?t a saint. In the real world there aren?t that many saints.

Some on here are praising Kenwright for "finding" David Moyes! He was actually recommended to him by the outgoing Walter Smith. BK wanted to appoint Gary Megson, Moyes sold himself to the club at his interview.

I cannot say that he?s "destroying" the club but his inept stewarding of the club and failure to secure any serious financial backing has put us in danger of not only losing some of our better players but worse still David Moyes may, sooner or later, decide to try his luck at a club that will give him a better transfer package than the pittance (in relative terms) that he gets at Everton.

I don?t want to see us following the disatrous example of Leeds Utd, nor do I want to see 7 years of great work by Moyes thrown away because of one man?s ego.

Michael,

Whilst I agree, in principle, with your response to Dave I think you have to accept there is different levels of supporter. This is the point Dave is making. Yes we are all fans but there are those of us that turn up every week, home and away and overseas, then there is those who attend very few games but still support the club wholeheartedly.

If I was only to read and listen to media, including fans websites, I would have a very different opinion to my current mindset. The fact I go to 95% of games, inclusive of pre-season, enables me to develop my own uninfluenced opinion of our players, team, staff and club.

You need to learn to respect this point.

Neil, I agree with you about the nonsensical view that Bill is the Devil or that he is determined to "destroy" the club. But as you say, he is not infallible ? and yes, as we are reminded regularly, he is human (not what, dancer?!).

Being a blue, or being human for that matter, is not the sole right of Mr Kenwright. We all on this site enjoy that same winning combination, otherwise there would be no ToffeeWeb.

BK basks in the limelight whenever things are going well, and rightly so; he?s spent and borrowed lots of money to stabalise us and get us where we are now as a club. I certainly would not begrudge him any of it.

But... and there is of course a ?but?. If he is happy to do that then he has to stand up and take responsibility when things are not so great. Cut through the bullshit and most fans don?t expect him to find £50M, but a hands-up after fuck-ups which have gone.

Nobody can see into the future, whatever is decided usually could have been done better in hindsight, but these were not just minor things that Jay listed here. By resting on the fact that he brought and did not remove DM, he is not doing his job.

Had David Moyes arrived, or in fact been here during the Johnson years, only for BK to come in and on the pitch we were a mess, would BK be cool with it so long as his musicals were doing well? And how impressed would people be if he turned round and said he knew nothing about training or tactics ? he is only the manager after all?! Would it be OK because he?s human... what sort of rationalisation is that, if he were a gibbon would we all say "Well, he is only a gibbon" and not wish to move on rather than close the gap of our non-gibboned competition?

Michael Kenrick - would you like a ladder or are you going to jump down off your high horse?

I agree that all people posting are Evertonians with differing opinions.

This is my first post on here for well over a year as my last post/article was edited by you and your team because I chose to have a pop at Ian MacDonald and his KEIOC group.

What I put forward was an opinion backed up by some facts about this guy, his group and my experience.

In an email from Toffeeweb it was explained to me that he had taken offence to some of the points I had raised and had asked you to remove the comments from the article. I had not been abusive, used bad language or said anything I could not back up.

So the opinion of one Evertonian was edited at the request of another Evertonian, apparently with a little more sway than me.

In short, you bent over.

Down off the horse yet?

Expect to be edited/removed.

Kind regards.

We?d be on the Kings Dock now, if BK hadn?t of fucked it up, after it was handed to us on a plate for £30M. Personally I will never ever forgive him for that, and it is why I will never have a go at people who want him gone.

Adam, I actaully get pissedoff when I go to see a show in the Echo Arena, thinking that I could be going there one Saturday in two to watch us play footy, but the fact remains that Bill is not rich and he simply did not have the "ringfenced" money to pull the actual "Deal of the Century" off, much to the disappointment of all Everton fans.

He is a "luvvy" and I wish sometimes he would just shut the fuck up but his biggest "crime" is that he doesn?t have as much money as the other chairmen.

I don?t hate him but I wouldn?t lose a second of sleep if he sold up and went either.

I used the term "so-called" fans as after a lifetime of supporting Everton I have experienced so much negative criticism from people who I know believe they are good supporters. As a small shareholder many years ago I used to sit next to a guy who from before kick off would kick off. Everything was negative from team selection to the ref. He almost seemed dissapointed when we won and yet I don?t deny that guy?s credentials to call himself a supporter. Just like I wouldn?t deny anyone on here the right to express their opinions (maybe with the possible exception of the self righteous David O?Keefe).

Over the years, I coached a few football teams (not at a very high level, I should add) and similair "supporters" would hurl abuse at their favourite targets from the touchlines in the mis-guided belief that this, I imagine, would have a positive effect. It didn?t.

You?ve read on this thread already somebody suggesting lynching and of course the classic "head up his arse" comment. My point is that I think BK is a genuine guy and I simply don?t subscribe to the caustic views expressed by some of you. He?s made a lot of mistakes and mislead us on occasion as I?m sure Jay and others have as CEOs. I wouldn?t hang him for that and I would welcome a Randy Lerner or similar but sadly the truth is they?re few and far between.

Well, you ask for perspective so I will attempt to give it some, as far as I am concerned BK is an Evertone supporter with a vested financial interest in all EFC does. He is a major shareholder and chairman who has not just made mistakes and blurred the lines of credibility, he has also presided over a recovery in the clubs fortunes on the pitch under ther leadership of David Moyes.

No question that we have a better team. No question he deserves some of the credit too. But this is a guy (leaving Jay?s comments behind for a minute) who is prepared to take the club to Kirkby and sell. Indeed it is the stated intent of the rest of the directors to sell should a buyer come along (who offers them the right price once Kirkby has been confirmed).

So all the plaudits for BK in the world count for nothing if we end up in Kirkby. That people ask that we should trust in his judgement because we made the FA Cup Final?

So, perspective and praise for BK where its due, but never would I praise the man for taking us to Kirkby. For all that he is Blue, he is also keen to sell. For all the good we have seen, the lack of credibility shines through. His judgement has been questioned continually with respect to the financial future of the club and any move, so I am afraid from my perspective the trust is not there and never will be.

Andy Lea: I think you know our Conditions of Use, which, in the instance you refer to, take precedence over the simple exchange of opinions. Since you seem to have forgotten, this is what Lyndon wrote at the time:

Editorial note: Personal comments made in relation to Ian Macdonald of the Independent Blues (incidentally, not the "one campaigner" mentioned above) have been belatedly removed from this article. The author?s assertion that Ian is the leader of KEIOC is incorrect ? he is merely a supporting member ? and the character assassination of a particular individual that this article contained was deemed as gratuitous and unnecessary in putting forward a viewpoint contrary to the KEIOC position.
Lyndon Lloyd

The fact that your article remained up on this website despite such erroneous content seems lost on you. And the ensuing discussion, which presented views from across the entire spectrum of opinions on Kirkby, including more of your own, plays to the lie you perpetrate in your comment above.

Oh and by the way, we don?t take well to proven liars: your last post was much more recent than "well over a year ago": you obviously don?t remember commenting on this thread, eh?

You are of course welcome to contribute your opinions to this website, if you can do it in a respectful and honest manner, without insulting other Evertonains or lying about them. Thank You.

Suzy, this website is for all Evertonians who are interested enough to read and/or comment on the issues raised. Consequently, we’re pretty sensitive to any pretence at elitism in being an Evertonian ? because people do exactly what you’re trying to do: present their Everton credentials to enforce recognition of their opinions. It’s not necessary... in fact, it’s obnoxious.

Just consider this: there are probably 2,000 Evertonians or less who attend every match (probably far less); there are perhaps 200,000 Evertonians living abroad who, by the magic of television, can watch the entirety of every single Everton game, many in HD, with pause, rewind and slo-mo. Should the opinion of either group be considered more or less valid?
Perhaps you need to learn to respect that point too.

Suzy Whitehead - " I think you have to accept there is different levels of supporter."

Oh, really ? Perhaps with all due respect to you, you should reconsider that statement.

I am sure that there are many,many thousands of Everton fans out there who once attended most games. I know I did just that throughout the 80s. However, sometimes your life changes and you can no longer do it. So I envy you Suzy that you can still experience that magical buzz of watching the team live.

However, please don?t insult us (whether that was your intention or not) by suggesting that we are incapable of informed, intelligent, autonomous thought processes on Everton.

I enjoy the cut and thrust of the debates on TW. I agree with some opinions expressed and disagree with others. It hasn?t influenced me per se but sometimes it has given me a different perspective on things for which I am grateful.

If you adhere to a principle that there is some hierarchical level of enlightenment when it comes to knowledge about Everton, then that?s your opinion


However, my own enlightenment after 35 years of watching and supporting the club is that I believe we are all equal.

Michael (Kenrick) you?re taking this way too far. There was never a suggestion of elitism about supporters from me or from Suzy as far as I can see.

It?s about the way supporters act as supporters not their credentials to be one in the first place. Time to call this one a day I think before we all get into a pissing contest.

Dave, let?s go back to the phrase you used that was the seed for this discussion: "so-called fans".

Your subsequent post (above) qualified this in terms of the degree of support offered to the players, in a literal sense, at the game. As judged by you, not "support" at all, by any stretch of meaning.

But that was not the original context. The clear inference (confirmed above) is that anyone critical of Bill Kenwright, and not sharing your appreciation of what he has done for the club, is only a "so-called fan" (ie, not a real fan?). You admit above that the way they act (in your view) means just that.

I don?t think I?m taking anything too far: it?s insulting, it?s obnoxious, and it?s the kind of language that does its best to perpetuate the deep divisions between fans of the same club, stemming from an intolerance of the contrary viewpoint.

Did you not have an inkling that, by posting the original Mailbag piece on a subject you know triggers such passions on either side, and kicking it off yourself with the use of such a completely unwanted phrase, you were going to see something of a pissing match develop?

Brierley, do you actually read what you write?, you can? t use terms such as "so-called fan" and then start whining when you are justifiably accused of elitism.

As for self-righteous, ffs look up irony.

Dave Brierley, re-read your posts on this thread... it?s not too difficult, but in fairness you have come accros as a self-righteous cunt. I?m not sure if Michael?s location or other circumstances have changed, but really, you know as well as others who always go to the game, afterwards it can sound like a percentage were watching a different game... so multiply that by the amount that you disagree with on the internet ? you?ll be amazed how many disagree.

So, you have two brothers.

Brother one moved to London years ago, he travels up to every match with his son, his missus gives him perpetual earache because they can't really afford the season tickets. If Everton lose, he and his son's week is ruined.

Brother two lives in Kirkdale. The two Bro?s meet on County Rd for a pint before every match, they catch up on family stuff. If we are playing the Shite or Man United, they all leave for the match around 2:50, but if we are playing Bolton or Fulham, brother two can't be arsed, he goes the bookies instead. He despises the Redshite and loves it when Everton win, but if they don?t, he wont even let it spoil his Saturday night, let alone his entire week.

All around the world there are people who could talk to you about EFC for hours on end. Some won't always remember to check our score until Sunday whilst others will be up before dawn to watch the game or be logged onto sites like TW desperately pleading with others for a decent "stream" ? think that?s what they call it...

Of course Suzy is right, there are different levels of commitment and support, it's beyond belief that people can contest that.

On the point Michael made. Yes, people all around the world do get to see more angles, repeats, slo-mo, etc on TV. I?ve been to many a game where people are getting txt messages from friends and family watching it on TV who are able to confirm "it was a penalty". But you only have to go back to our last game to get an example as to how some of the TV supporters ARE influenced, some of the posts after the Cup Final were quoting Jim Beglin almost word for word.

This is a terrific site, that doesn?t happen by accident. No-one could argue against your point that if people take the time to comment, they obviously care. I also see the need to guard against elitism, but you are in danger of going to far in your quest for equality. On more than one occasion you have referred to the match goer?s comments as "obnoxious" but, although they ? "The lucky ones" as Mike Evans quite rightly points out ? may not see everything 2-3 times, they will see things the TV viewer will not, they will see many things people who only see highlights will not.

If anything is obnoxious, it's when you?ve actually witnessed something with your own eyes, but you're told by people who haven?t, or who don?t have stats referring to the incident, that "it didn?t happen".

The respect needs to be mutual, I?m happy to listen to the guy who saw the game on TV and tells me "he was a yard off". But if I tell him there was only 200 Chelsea fans around the gantry and not the 5,000 it sounded like, it shouldn?t be construed as "obnoxious". Our wish to inform is every bit as great as our wish to be informed.

Brierley, don?t like criticism? neither does Bill, not related are you?

Dave Brierley,
If you haven’t stopped reading this yet, then I would like to apologise. I was well over the top and also don’t really seem to make sense either.
Must stop writing on here when half asleep, especially after a fair few drinks.

Dave Wilson, nice story.

Just to pick up on one thing: it?s the elitism I consider obnoxious ? not the opinion or information provided by different fans per se.

Back to the original point, David Brierly believes that he is better than all those other "so-called fans" who are critical of Bill Kenwright and who do not see him in the same light as he does. He backed that up with some tale about a "so-called supporter" he sat next to at the game who did little by way of direct support to the team, demonstrating mainly his own intolerance of the way other Evertonians follow the team.

That?s the elitism I find "obnoxious" ? not someone pointing out an obvious issue regarding microphone placement near the away fans.

Chad no problem, been there, understand and appreciate what you said. Thankyou.

MK however is determined to have the last word and has become very personal in his critique of what I originally wrote. I can’t let that go.

Michael as editorial team member and pedantic person extraordinaire, at least spell my name right when you’re slagging me off.

I do not believe myself better than anybody, least of all other EFC supporters and what I said and what you have completely overeacted to, is that people who propose to support, often have the opposite iimpact in the way that they express what they believe to be constructive. That in no way suggests that they are’nt supporters. This is what I meant by so-called supporters. Nothing more nothing less.

I simply suggested that BK has the best interests of Everton as do I and as do you. We all get it wrong Michael and sometimes you just have to accept that and let it go. Obnoxious is an extremely offensive word and you use it too easily. It maybe that it is you that considers yourself superior and not I.

Dave,whatever you intended Michael is simply speaking the truth. You decided to qualify what a ’real’ Evertonian is, presumably you in your own mind, and labelled the rest of us ’so-called’ Evertonians. That is most certainly insulting and the tag obnoxious is certainly not out of place either. It’s you who needs to move on. You’ve been rumbled and undressed, give it up and walk on...

I have to laugh at contributors to this article getting their knickers in a twist over the oft-used phrase of ?so-called fans?. Over the months and years I?ve noticed pro-Kenwright and pro-Kirkby contributors have often been labelled ?so-called fans? by some anti-Kenwright/anti-Kirkby contributors and the editors of TW have nearly always let them get away with it.

Dave Brierley ? apologies for mispelling your name ? but let?s go right back to the first problematic statement, right at the top of this thread:

I never cease to be amazed at the criticism levelled at one Bill Kenwright by some of the so-called fans on this forum.

Your latest reinterpretation of that simple statement is that it was aimed at:

... people who propose to support, often have the opposite impact in the way that they express what they believe to be constructive.

Sorry, but it seems to me like you?re looking for yet another way to weasel out of taking full responsibility for what you originally wrote. Throwing in the "constructive criticsm" oxymoron only serves to cloud the issue. You followed the original condemnation of your fellow fans on this forum with a tirade of sweeping generalizations against those who dare to criticise (constructively or not!) Blue/Black Bill, devaluing their assessments with some allegory about running a paper round.

Your belief that Bill Kenwright has the best interests of Everton at heart is open to debate and has been debated may times on these pages. I believe that his main concern as a businessman is making the most of his investment in Everton, and the deal with Tesco is designed to give him that if Kirkby gets the go-ahead. Best interests of Everton? Or best interests of Bill Kenwright? The point is I have a different viewpoint than you do, and yet are quick you condemn such views as "vitriolic".

You say I?m getting personal (how?) but it is you that claims to speak for me; I would not be so bold.

"So-called fans" remains an egregious put-down of those with whom you disagree, and is fundamentally obnoxious. When you say "We all get it wrong" ? should I take that as a final admission that you were wrong to use this phrase?

Now I’m really confused.
I’ve read many a post from Evertonians around the world telling us they had to stay up all night, or be up at the crack of dawn to watch Everton, but When a match goer tells us she goes to most of the games, she’s being elitist , She’s "presenting her Evertonian credentials" . . . . . . .Whats the difference ?

Personally I like it all, I love it when somebody says they where dancing around their house in India when Everton scored and the neighbours thought they were crazy or when somebody living in Australia can go back before your time and tell you about players you’ve never even heard of.
I like to hear about the fun/ trouble the guys who hired a minibus to go to Sunderland had.

"presenting your credentials" and "Elitism" are poles apart, Evertonians presenting their credentials are part of what makes this site what it is.

its unfair and untrue to suggest only the match goer who is capable of elitism

I’m picturing Michael scrutinising my original post at 5.00am in his pJ’s with a thesaurus by his side and I think exactly what I wrote on here yesterday (he took it off by the way). A pedantic bore.

Enough. I’m taking Neil Steele’s advice (not the undressed bit) but I just walked on.

"we have too many mugs amongst us"


Summed up nicely...without going into some of the less informed comments on here.

Financial stability?

Unbelievable.

I think Garry Richards comments near the top of this thread are spot on and say it all really.
"Bill?s a good chairman who?s heart is in the right place. Sure he?s made mistakes and he?ll make more and he?ll probably not be totally candid with us about them. What public figure in his position ever is? But for me, he has done two great things: (a) He brought Moyes in.(b) He didn?t kick Moyes out.?

Absolutely spot on Garry. ? short and to the point.

Some people need to appreciate what they?ve got rather than always criticising and thinking they can do a better job. Is there anyone out there who is perfect, never made a mistake and supports EFC? If so, your club needs you!

As long as Kenwright doesn?t sell us to Kirby then he?ll continue to be the best person to lead this fantastic club of ours in the absence of another true blue with more money.

"As long as Kenwright doesn?t sell us to Kirby then he?ll continue to be the best person to lead this fantastic club of ours in the absence of another true blue with more money."
------------------------

Classic. Your breakfast's ready, Matt.

Ciaran, do you ever read news about any other clubs apart from Everton? If you did you might question your strange comment about it being "unbelievable" to say that our club is financially stable.

Have you heard about the financial states of Liverpool, West Ham, Portsmouth and Newcastle (to name but four)? Ciaran, we are not rich for sure, and if anything we might be being managed a little too conservatively on the financial side. But your comment about our financial stability is inaccurate and ignorant.

Michael, you say.

"Yes, Destination Kirkby will alienate a substantial faction of probably older, more traditional fans, who may fall by the wayside... to be replaced in all probability by a larger horde of younger fans that have no concept of terracing and will be perfectly happy to watch Everton without those hideous obstructed views in a modern (albeit cheap) stadium".

In all probability?

Why?

Might I suggest there is absolutely nothing ’out there’ (ie: no logic, research, figures etc) to suggest that ANY supporters lost by a move to Kirkby will be replaced by...anyone.

When I first heard (from Wyness) the notion of loads of non-Goodison attending Evertonians suddenly going to Kirkby coz there’s no ’restricted’ views, I remember thinking "Who?.....WHAT people?"

I have heard nothing since then to make me think there’s an army of ’Evertonians’ hidden away somewhere, just waiting for ’unrestricted’ views.

If Kirkby happens, I believe it will be full for first game.

I also believe by the following Feb, when you add those who have stopped going, to those who, bit-by-bit, drop off having experienced waiting in a queue for (possibly) an hour-plus at Kirkby station...in the middle of winter, the probability will be that there’ll be no more match-going support than we have right now.

Dave Wilson, as seems the norm, you pick up the stick and poke the wrong end into the mix.

It’s not elitist to present your Everton credentials.

What is elitist is to use those credentials as part of presenting yourself (and your Evertonian opinions) as being somehow better than others.

Neil,

Ever heard of the term ’whataboutery’?

It’s a particular type of connivance that seeks to justify something - not on its merits, but on the merits someone or something else’s behaviour.

A case of ’themums did it, so it’s Ok’...

Bringing other teams financial state into the equation does not alter our precarious position. If you fancy rebuting my point, then do so by addressing it...not by some vacuous resorting to ’whataboutery’.


Where is last years AGM, by the way?

He's starving our club of investment, Mike, that's how he?ll destroy our club. He can?t sell ? we know that it?s in the exclusivity agreement ? thats why he only uses the words "I?m looking for investment..." ? WHAT TYPE OF INVESTMENT? FOR CHRIST SAKE!!

If he turned down Gregg's gift horse of £30million to make the Kings Dock happen, then what is he hoping for? ? some old granny with £50 million sitting inside her matress to say, "There you go, Bill, you?re a True Blue, I don?t want control and I was only going to leave it for the local cattery.:"

And as for the Destination Kirkby project, well, I believe it's football's equivalent of the Great Rock ?n? Roll swindle.

Ciaran, for some reason you share the rather strange belief of a number of posters on Toffeeweb that our club’s performance, both on and off the field, can be assessed without any reference to the performance of the clubs around us. Strange.

When you would have thought that, for example, finishing above all other clubs outside the top four, or having low debt levels and stable financial ownership relative to the rest of the league, would be precisely the relevant comparison as to whether we are doing well or are ’stable’.

Let’s put it this way. On the basis of everything we know about the debt levels and ownership structures of different Premier League clubs (most recently published in for example the FT and The Guardian) - if we are ’financially unstable’ then just about every club is; some being obviously less stable than us must be on the brink of collapse; and one would judge it unlikely given these facts that the league will make it through another season without financial collapse.

Or, then again, perhaps we are one of the more financially stable clubs right now?

Note: I didn’t say ’rich’. We are, fortunately and unfortunately, relatively poor but relatively stable. Is that so hard to grasp? Or to admit?

Neil,

I would call record debts of over £60 million, 7 years continuous operating losses until last year (£26,000 profit) with who knows what owed to Earl and Green... together with a looming spend of around £80 million on a new stadium, a very precarious financial position for a club with only c. £65 million income.

It does not matter what other clubs' financial position is because debt called in is not done on a league table basis.

It?s fair to say Moyes and the team have punched above their weight for a long time now but realistically, if we all put our blue-tinted specs away, how long do you think we can keep that up as money continues to pour into other clubs?

If we don't do something soon, we will be slipping below the likes of City, Spurs, West Ham, Fulham, Porsmouth and Sunderland.

Our only hope is that the Premier League will come to its senses, which I don't hold out much hope for, and start to control this crazy system where an average player can get over £2 million a year and a top player can get over £6 million a year besides the aquisition fee.

Jay, not sure to what extent we are really in disagreement here.

I totally agree as I just said that we are "poor", and I totally agree that we need more money to be able to compete over time with clubs who are having more money pumped into them. No argument there.

And no argument on the hope that the Premier League will come to its senses.

But still I think there is no serious worry that we are currently in a "financially precarious" position. The current debt levels are perfectly manageable, and the talk of monies owed to Earl and Green is unfounded scaremongering (unless you know something substantial here?). Of course £80M spent on Kirkby could push us into a more precarious position, but there is a lot of water to flow under that particular bridge and we are not there yet.

If you stop wanting to have yet another swipe at Kenwright, you will see that we are pretty much as I said: stable but poor. Your suggestion that we may financially slip below West Ham and Portsmouth suggests that you may be another person failing to read the newspapers! (Now they do indeed qualify as ?financially precarious?....)

Hmmm, I know you're a financial wizzard Neil so maybe you can correct me but, according to official figures, Everton Football Club has an equity ratio of -79.11% ? is that healthy?

Richard, why on earth does your hatred for Kenwright make you need to be critical on ALL points?

Look, for a football club, that?s not bad and it?s manageable. Banks will lend against it. If this is bad, most of our competitors are completely doomed.

So let?s be critical where we should be critical, not about absolutely everything. We are too poor in my opinion to reliably compete at the top level into the future, even with Moyes?s miracles. Kenwright has not secured a new owner (although he has managed to get some player investment or at least loan backing from his pals), and for that he deserves criticism.

But this does not mean that we are on the verge of bankruptcy. We aren?t. When you criticise absolutely everything, the criticism becomes meaningless.

Good morning Ciaran (McGlone).
I?ve just finished my breakfast and now I?m cutting shapes out of the cornflake packet! Mummy says I can. In fact, I?ve just re-designed Goodison Park and built it up out of Daddy?s weetabix box and some glue. It look great! You should see it! (Notice the use of the apostrophe in ?daddy?s?. That means I?m quite old really as they don?t teach the kids that these days. Did you know that?)

You know Ciaran, everybody has an opinion. That?s what (note the apostrophe again!) makes the world go round. You seem to be a little bitter about things and anyone's opinion that is not 100% yours. Don?t let the Baaarstards get you down, old boy! Chill out!

We all want what?s best for our beloved Everton. We may have different opinions on what ?best? should be but invariably we all want the same thing, a successful team and a club to be the envy of all others steeped in history and tradition.

Personally, I think Bill Kenwright has more good points than bad regarding Everton. I don?t deny that he may make incorrect decisions and sometimes sound a bit of a plonker in front of the TV cameras. I also don?t agree with his initial stance regarding the Kirkby project as in the long run I think it will come back to haunt him. Maybe, behind the scenes, he?s now having second thoughts. Who knows...

I also don?t agree with some of the decisions David Moyes makes on occasions, but does that make him a bad manager? I think not.

I would rather have the treble act of Kenwright, Moyes and Elstone than the shite across the park (fat waiter and his cowboy friends), but there again, that?s just my opinion. If Bill had an extra £100 million in his pocket, I think he would spend most of it on Everton. So (in my opinion) I think his heart is in the right place and he?s doing the best he can in difficult financial times.

Enjoy what you have Ciaran rather than get bitter about what you haven?t. Life?s too short for that.

Now where?s my dinner money gone ???MUM!!!!!!??

Neil,
Starting your argument by stating that those that oppose your view are just Kenwright-haters... is similar to previous arguments that those that oppose Kirkby are simply luddites... the classic profound headline putdown that negates any reasonable debate, despite a whole litany of lies/deception that not even the club still contends. You sell your view as being pragmatic, while we are the crying conspiracy theorists or doubting-Thomas?s who should just get over it...... as inferred by:

"there are lies and public games in the corporate world ? so get over it."

No thanks, I don?t think I will! The future of Everton FC is far too important for blind faith alone ? based on what....? Lies? Richard Jones put up the example of the Kings Dock, and the real gift horse and route to "stability" and even prosperity that was lost on Kenwright?s watch.... why? Political games of the corporate world? Sorry..... it doesn?t wash with me!

Kirkby is inferior in EVERY stadium planning/design respect and will cost the club more. Was that great leadership? IMO a potentially disastrous decision that can?t be laughed-off or trivialised by one of your "get over it, that?s the way those clever business people do things" type put-downs.

Kenwright, inadvertently or not, has steadied things, but by far the greatest stabilising influence at the club has been Moyes and what he has done on a very tight budget, which, let's face it, he has earned many times over.... Put it this way: who would you rather see leave if it came to a Smith/Johnson type stand-off (which I don?t think we were too far off last summer)?

Haha... You just couldn?t do it Neil eh!

Couldn?t get over that rubicon of ?whataboutery?... to hard a fix to chase. Well, I suppose whenever your argument is based on financial clumsiness then I guess obfuscation is very attractive.

We are not financially stable ? we have a model based on borrowing to extremis ? and have mortgaged off every revenue stream possible... this does not change with your erroneous and frankly irrelevant comparison with other clubs.

The point you challenged me on was that I we were ?financially stable? ... again, feel free to make a reasoned argument against this.

"Of course £80M spent on Kirkby could push us into a more precarious position"

To get into a ?more? precarious position... we?d need to be precarious in the first place!

Matt,

I have it on good authority that the place Bill IS moving us to... is called ?Kirkby?... not Kirby.

A little less emphasis on apostrophe?s and you might have picked that up.

I?m all for opinions Matt, even foolish ones that defer judgement on whether Kenwright wants to move us to ?Kirkby? or not. In fact I would?ve thought his intentions on that one were obvious (clearly not!).

So, knock yourself out.

Tom - really, is there any Evertonian who does not believe that Kings Dock was a missed opportunity? We all agree! But it is a bit far in the past now don?t you think to be still harping on about it?

On the public worlds, business or politics, not being governed by boy scout standards ? yep, I stand unrepentant. They aren?t. If you are waiting for Everton to be taken over by any owner who consistenly abides by the sort of standards you are talking about ? well, you are going to be waiting for a very long time. Don?t hold your breath. That?s my point. Saints don?t own major football clubs - as we can see from the owner of most other clubs.

And Ciaran ? you are really from the ?have you stopped beating your wife?? school of logic, aren?t you? You assert that Everton is "financially precarious" against all current evidence, and then challenge me: PROVE we are not financially precarious!! I can?t beyond saying that we have relatively low debt levels, no known troubles with our bankers, and there are no reports (eg in the press) that we are under particular financial pressure (unlike many other clubs).

So Ciaran, the ball is really in your court to justify your original claim that we are in a dangerous financial position. No other people seem to believe this, so tell us why you think so. I look forward to it!

And I make my points about Kenwright haters for the simple reason that I have no other explanation for the views of people who criticise Kenwright on EVERY AND ALL counts, and give him credit for absolutely nothing. As you will find in my comments, I have criticised Kenwright for many things: eg picking Wyness, under-exploiting the commercial side of the club, not finding a good and richer new owner for us.

Would you like to tell me (Rich, Tom, Ciaran) ANYTHING that you would give Kenwright credit for?

You just can’t stop yourself Neil!

Even when asking yourself a direct question solely about Everton’s debt - you can’t help sneaking that meaningless ’relative to other clubs’ argument into the equation!

Pity you don’t apply that ’relative’ word to something more pertinent, like...say...our gross income, our spend, our turnover, our wages.... our potential revenue streams. Kenwright HIMSELF, said a few weeks ago that we were struggling to make ends meet..is he also from the same school of logic?

Priceless.

Oh and by the way...nice things to say about Kenwright...he has nice hair.


So, any sign of that AGM yet?

So Ciaran - no evidence from you that we are in a dangerous financial situation? I guess you’ve conceded the argument on that one. Fine.

Actually, ’relative to other clubs’ is not irrelevant. Given that, as you’ve in effect conceded, we are not about to go bankrupt - how else do you judge our state other than by looking at our comparative clubs? Would you not judge how well Sainsbury was doing by looking at Tesco or Aldi? Or do you think there is some other way of doing this? Pray tell.

And - since you mention it - I think that the ’relative to other clubs’ measures that you mention are HIGHLY relevant. You might have noticed in a couple of posts of mine some way above that I clearly said that I thought we were "relatively poor". That’s what I meant. Stable but poor. It’s possible., (Compared to -say - Portsmouth who are currently unstable and poor.)

Like the joke about Kenwright at the end. I guess I can take it then that according to you he deserves no credit for anything has happened at the club under his watch. Do you really believe that Ciaran? Do you think the world is really that black and white and simple?

Ah..Neil.

Playing an ?old reporters trick? on me.

I would reserve such tactical nous for the infirm of mind. But then again such people would probably overlook your straw man argument as well.

What I said was that we are in a precarious financial position, not dangerous one.

The evidence:
Exhibit A, your honour ? a debt that at the last time of reporting was over £60mill (now reported close to £90mill ? where is that AGM again?);

Exhibit B ? Revenue streams mortgaged off under the creditors list in that last report.

Exhibit C ? Bill Kenwright: A man who admits to having no ability to pay our borrowings in a personal capacity;

Exhibit D ? Robert Earl: A man who has let two seperate Planet Hollywood ventures go to the wall rather than bail them out himself.

Oh, and as Columbo would say... one more thing...

The current state of the Television rights money is in limbo... therefore, given the extent of our debts / the already mortgaged revenue streams / our 70% wages and our small turnover.... if that TV money suddenly dropped, we'd be up shít creek without a paddle.

I, my friend, consider that precarious.

As for your somewhat confusing question about how to judge a businesses vitality... I would?ve thought that was quite obvious ? you look at their books and reports. You don?t curtain twitch!

So, where is that AGM... I know I left it here somewhere!

"...... is there any Evertonian who does not believe that Kings Dock was a missed opportunity? We all agree! But it is a bit far in the past now don?t you think to be still harping on about it?"

There you go again, trivialising a disastrous decision (by guess who) as if it was a tiny issue... Missed opportunity? Is that it? Why was it missed Neil? If people have been harping on about it for years, you should be well informed and able to tell us.

This wasn?t a minor mishap or oversight... this was a stadium development that would cost more than £300m for just £30m outlay that was even made available to the club by one of its directors. A life changing opportunity for the club... Why aren?t we in it now? How big a cock-up do we need to mention before it registers with you?

"On the public worlds, business or politics, not being governed by boy scout standards ? yep, I stand unrepentant. They aren?t. If you are waiting for Everton to be taken over by any owner who consistenly abides by the sort of standards you are talking about ? well, you are going to be waiting for a very long time."

It would appear we have been waiting a long time to find ANY investors ? boy scout or otherwise ? despite the fact that nearly all other clubs have managed to find investors... some more than once. How many times did you just insist they didn?t exist and we were all wrong, just to justify your Kirkby stance?

Meanwhile, you seem to believe it is ok for the club to tell multiple lies to its fanbase/customers/shareholders in order to secure a vote for a project which has been shown to be fundamentally flawed time and time again. Will Cuff must be spinning in his grave...

Also, I?m not a Kenwright-hater ? I try not to hate Evertonians generally ? but, given your extensive list of his misdemeanours, I?m beginning wondering why not.

By the way Neil..

Would it not be better if you provided a list of things you think I should give Kenwright credit for... and i?ll just give them a ?yay? or a ?nay?

Could be interesting!

I hear the constant groans about not ?giving Kenwright credit? but I?m yet to hear what I?m supposed to give him credit for... so fire away...

Your Bill Kenwright role of honour, if you please...

Q Tumbleweed blowing accross a dusty road.

Thanks for your usual insightful and helpful contribution Rich - certainly up to your usual standards.

It must be wonderful to live in the simple worlds that you guys live in! No complexities, no shades of grey! You don’t think perhaps Tom that there might be other reasons for our missing the Kings Dock than that it is just ’all Bill’s fault’? Did he do it simply out of pure evil Tom, or were there any other factors in play do you think? Might it have been just a little bit more complicated than you are portraying it?

On the question of new owners for other clubs: first of all, clearly we would not want most of them, so if Kenwright has turned some of them away, good for him. Secondly, it is very likely that the issue of a new stadium is a major factor in deterring new owners. Somehow potential new owners for Everton are not persuaded Tom by your plans to rebuild GP. I wonder why?

And Ciaran, I actually don’t think £60M debt is that high or unsustainable, certainly in the industry we are in. If it is high and precarious, then a lot of Premier Leage football clubs are going to go the wall in the next year, most of them before us. Is that what you are expecting?

If following standard practice and outsourcing non core activities to people who can do them better is going to kill the club - then, ditto, the whole of the Premier League is going down the toilet. Everyone outsources and monetizes their non core revenue streams because it makes financial sense.

Kenwright deserves credit for appointing Moyes, for sticking by him when he would have been fired on multiple occasions by virtually every other Premier League owner, for creating a stable club which has been the most successful club for the last five years outside the super-rich top four, for retaining stars which frankly might well and probably should have gone elsewhere, and to all but you guys for re-establishing our club as one of integrity widely praised throughout the game.

Everyone but the arch doomsayers on Toffeeweb believes that Kenwright has got Everton into a sound position -but now we really need some more money to compete. Indeed, this seems to be what Kenwright himself believes. If we do find a good new owner rather than one of the crooks or charlatans that most other clubs have got, then Kenwright’s tenure at Everton will have to be regarded as a substantial success in taking the club through a very difficult period.

But no doubt you will choose to give all the credit elsewhere. After all, we might not make it to Christmas given our precarious finances.

Neil... I was happy to read and consider from the touchline until King’s Dock surfaced.

No, I don’t believe BK cocked up because he is totally evil but, for all either of us know, perhaps it was because he was thoroughly incompetent and unfit to lead the club in the project.

We’ve had this discussion before about ethics in government and business and I know you think they are an irrelevance; there is a difference between legitimately saying nothing to give the game away and downright lying.

Personally, the way you think and Bill fabricates to suit, if I shook hands on a deal with either of you, I’d count my fingers afterwards.

Phil, I don’t think that high standards of ethics in government and business are "an irrelevance" at all. I just don’t think they are very common, that’s all. Given that most public figures (and certainly most football club owners!) are hardly saints, I think it is naive to absolutely crucify Kenwright for not being a saint either. Especially as I think in terms of ethical standards he is probably better than most. And those baying for his blood are not very likely to get a new owner with higher ethical standards (probably quite the reverse).

I also believe that life is massively more complicated and difficult than many on here seem to believe. Many of these ’lies’ which are so clear and so evil to some of you would look a lot less clearly wrong if you were actually on the inside in the middle of the difficult decisions and situations.

Also I absolutely think Kenwright is a bit of a luvvy, the true theatre impresario, who really likes to be liked. And consequently sometimes says very silly things. But, as much as it’s not to my taste, I think it’s hardly a hanging offence.

Speaking personally, I hope that I practice higher standards of honesty and integrity than is the norm, but I come short a lot of the time, like most people. Perhaps even like you guys who are so completely and utterly damning of one Bill Kenwright.

Neil, you do talk such utter bollocks some time and I know you enjoy a good job of winding people up. Summer silly season must be getting to you!
There are questions of credibility regarding BK. No one can deny that, anyone who does needs their bumps feeling. He is not just a luvvy, and Phil B questioned his competence for the job after some of the failures along the way (Kings Dock inc) and I can only agree. In a corporate world if BK was answerable to shareholders he would have been shown the door. Many are for a lot less.

To prevent that inconvenience he changed the Articles of Association and gagged the shareholders who tried to reign him in. Good stuff, eh?

All that and no mention of Kirkby. Or the reasons for the move, or the financial viability or the motives.

No one is black and white Neil. BK does have his good points, he is an Evertonian, he appointed David Moyes, but he has made some disasterous decisions and minor bloopers. In the offing is Kirkby and the most contentious issue in our club's history.

As good as anyone thinks BK is, the truth is I look at the track record and doubt the decision is a good one. Why? Because all the indicators are stacked against it, because, based on the history, I don’t think the man himself has shown the business skills required for such a decision and frankly no amount of reselling of a bad idea will make it any better.

"...for sticking by him when he would have been fired on multiple occasions by virtually every other Premier League owner"

Oh dear! Do you ever talk in facts?

Well, it could well be the heat Christine (!), but I feel that I am the one who gets wound up by people who (unlike you) maintain that Kenwright has no redeeming features whatsoever, and is uniquely responsible for all our club’s problems and none of our successes. But let that go.

I was a bit stunned by your claim that "in a corporate world if he were answerable to shareholders he would have been shown the door — many are for a lot less". Come on Christine! The truth is that many are still in place for A LOT more. Fred Goodwin was STILL in place many months after one of the most disastrous deals in corporate history (the acquisition of ABN AMRO) until he had to be forcibly removed by the UK Government to prevent RBS destroying the UK economy.

And what exactly would Kenwright have been removed for Christine? Finishing ’the best of the rest’ for the last five years or so? Breaking the transfer record every year? Appointing and retaining the best young manager in the Premier League? Avoiding any major financial crises? Securing all our stars on long-term contracts at lower wage levels than most of our competitors? Packing out GP most weeks?

The truth is that out in the real world, CEOs and Chairmen are NOT (indeed never) removed for not always telling the whole truth in public and nothing but the truth. Indeed, I am sure that more CEOs and Chairmen (not to say politicians!) been removed for actually telling the truth in public!

For you at least, Christine, I sense that it mostly comes down to something admittedly real and important (Kirkby), and not the obsession with Bill saying things like "watch this space" and not immediately signing Moutinho or whatever. Or maintaining that Rooney would not be sold to make sure we got a good price for him if he did decide to go. (By the way, should Man Utd fire Ferguson for doing the same repeatedly with Ronaldo?)

All I will say again is that the new ground / Kirkby issue is rather more complicated than is usually portrayed on this site. When you are poor and yet you have to do something, any solution is going to be contentious.

Actually, if personally I was to hang Kenwright for anything it would be for not pushing harder for the best solution in the circumstances — a ground share with our neighbours. Certainly when future chapters of the Everton history books are written, he may well be criticised more for this than for saying rather silly luvvy things occasionally. Or indeed for not always telling the truth in public.

Tom, do you seriously dispute that Moyes would have been sacked by now if he had been at virtually any other Premier League team?

What’s not a fact about this??

Ok, Neil, so it’s:

1) Signing Moyes, the most promising manager (at the time) in the Championship and recommended to him by Smith.

2) The usual pile of drivel you come out with — no facts, no figures, nothing tangible.

Neil,
You’re allowing yourself to get drawn into elaborate arguments over semantics - exactly in the same way in which you did when you argued in the Kirkby debates.

Ciarán McGlone states that Everton are in a precarious financial position, not an untruth, but you feel the need to argue the point because of environmental factors. Effectively, it’s like somebody calling me fat because I’m 16 stone. Now this might sound a lot, but then I’m 6 ft 3. I could then try to deceive you that most of it’s muscle or indeed argue that given Britain’s increasing obesity problems, my situation is not bad... but basically, the truth is, that I could do with losing a bit of weight. It may be the case that there are teams in worse financial positions, but our position is not wonderful - in fact many would say that it is precarious, not just Ciarán.

To try to second guess BK exact intentions over the years is difficult. But as Tom says, you can not trivialise the monumental fuck up that was Kings Dock simply because it happened a while ago.

You assume (not only on this thread) that Kirkby, or at least not being at GP, will increase the desire of investors to buy BK out. But you’re then second guessing the desires of numerous anonymous people. Many people have argued that having an out of town cow shed will not really be seen as an asset or a benefit to anyone not currently financially attached to the club... but you then usually focus in on another pedantic point rather than directly countering the argument.

Unfortunately, as with many of the DK debates, many of the valid points seem to be getting drowned out or lost as you scathe anyone not sharing your point of view as somehow not living in the real world or having considerably less experience (rightly or wrongly) in the corporate world.

Christine, as so often in my opinion, seems to nail the point. You have to look at Bill’s record.

He has landed his fair share of criticism, but then he has cocked up on a number of occasions. He has of course done some good too, but surely you Neil, who would seemingly put Sir Alan to shame in terms of sheer business acumen, can see that much of the criticism levied is wholly justified and not just a case of a poor old true blue (human being) who has millions rather than billions. Most people aren’t complaining that he’s a luvvie, but they are concerned that this much needed investment will never materialize unless he still gets to play with his trainset in the fashion he’s become accustomed to.

"Tom, do you seriously dispute that Moyes would have been sacked by now if he had been at virtually any other Premier League team?

What’s not a fact about this??"

Erm...... are you serious Neil? "Virtually any other prem team"? Given the budget he’s had, and the crap squad he inherited? By the same token was he so cut throat with Smith when he served up the worst footy in living memory for season after season?

I would remind the author of this piece that it was stated at the Kirkby enquiry that NOBODY on the Board has put a penny into the club. So "pouring all his money" in is just not true.

Chad, some fair points. The truth is that I think a reasonable and balanced view of Kenwright is not all good, and it is not all bad. He definitely deserves some praise, and he definitely deserves some criticism.

Frankly what gets me going on Toffeeweb is the probably small number of people on here who consistently argue that Bill deserves no credit for anything (even for Rich in selecting Moyes because Walter Smith really deserves the credit, or for Tom in retaining Moyes because he seems to deny that other owners would have fired him). I think this position and these views are utterly ridiculous.

But I also think they are damaging. Because they provide a comforting and completely over-simplified diagnosis of the real problems that our club actually faces: it is simply all Bill’s fault. If you believe this then you avoid all the hard questions.

Kirkby is simply Bill’s fault. Kings Dock was simply Bill’s fault. Not having enough money to compete with the top four is Bill’s fault. Not having a rich new owner is Bill’s fault.

Unfortunately guys it is rather more complicated than that. And yes, you do have to look outside of GP to other football clubs and the wider environment to understand what is going on, where we stand, and what our options are.

We aren’t going to get anywhere by simply blaming everything on Kenwright. He could fall under a bus tomorrow and it would hardly touch the real difficulties we face. We would still need tens of millions for a new or radically upgraded ground. We would still need to invest more in our playing staff. We would still need to make more of a success of our off field commercial activities (at last some signs of improvement there).

Just as the problems of the UK economy will not simply be solved by replacing Gordon Brown (much as the Daily Mail would have you believe it), ditto with Bill Kenwright. That’s my point. It’s really not all about Bill, either positively or negatively. He’s not that important, and I’d love it if we would talk about him rather less. I’ll start now!

"It must be wonderful to live in the simple worlds that you guys live in! No complexities, no shades of grey! You don’t think perhaps Tom that there might be other reasons for our missing the Kings Dock than that it is just ’all Bill’s fault’?"

Actually, I work in a very complex and high profile industry Neil and have to justify every decision via stringent/audited processes right down to the smallest annoying time-consuming detail..... no luxury of corporate porkies or fag packet strategies for me I’m affraid. Fact is Bill was top of the pile for this debacle and the final decision-maker..... have you heard any explanation other than Gregg’s? I wonder why not? Once again you seem to have only faith and no substance.


"Did he do it simply out of pure evil Tom, or were there any other factors in play do you think? Might it have been just a little bit more complicated than you are portraying it?"

Pure evil? Bit flowery Neil.... more dramatic effect instead of facts? What about simple power-struggles or boardroom politics? Or don’t these figure in the corporate world you profess to educate us about?Whatever the reason, do you think it justifies the outcome of this massive missed opportunity? I don’t! But one thing’s for certain if there was a valid excuse it would have been used long before now.

"On the question of new owners for other clubs: first of all, clearly we would not want most of them, so if Kenwright has turned some of them away, good for him."

No, Neil it was always your assertion that no-one was interested remember? Now you are saying he’s only turned baduns away..... how come you always speculate wildly in his favour despite your list of reservations? Did he turn Lerner or any other so called good prospects away? Do you know?

"Secondly, it is very likely that the issue of a new stadium is a major factor in deterring new owners. Somehow potential new owners for Everton are not persuaded Tom by your plans to rebuild GP. I wonder why?"

No, they’ve all been turned away remember, you’ve just told us so in the same paragraph.....how much hopping around the issues do you want to do? But while you’re there.... you can tell us all why they are "not persuaded" by plans for redevelopment.... I’m all ears for this well-researched rebuttle. You might want to start with the small fact that just as with the vote.... no-one has been furnished with all the options, and in fact the club has never done a full site appraisal with design options for redevelopment. You might then want to explain why several clubs without new stadia have acquired the all elusive investment.... even Pompey with a tiny and far more dated stadium and fraction of our fanbase.


"Kenwright deserves credit for appointing Moyes, for sticking by him when he would have been fired on multiple occasions by virtually every other Premier League owner"

Neil, you’re scraping the bottom now. Again, wildly speculative to mount the weakest of arguments in support of BK.... "Virtually every"? Go on then name the clubs who you think would have sacked Moyes given the budget he’s had. Name the multiple occasions? Deary me!


" for creating a stable club which has been the most successful club for the last five years outside the super-rich top four, for retaining stars which frankly might well and probably should have gone elsewhere, and to all but you guys for re-establishing our club as one of integrity widely praised throughout the game."

Moyes has been the driving force..... I ask you again: who would you rather lose?

Once again Neil....... zero substance, 100% blind faith based on nothing but a desire to wind up IMO.

Tom, I really am afraid that the imbalance in views is all on your side. I repeatedly criticise Kenwright for all sorts of things - is that the ’blind faith’ you are talking about? I don’t even think he is that important. I even agree with you that I would rather lose Kenwright than Moyes.

But I am arguing against a zealot when it comes to you and some others. You as far as I am aware have never given Kenwright credit for anything, and as far as I can tell believe that he deserves no praise whatsoever for any part of the relative success of the club over the past few years.

You can correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t you the one with the blind faith that nothing Kenwright has done could ever be good? That seems a bit extreme and unbalanced to me. And - as I said - neatly avoids having to deal with the real issues the club faces.

Neil, is -230% gearing ratio a good thing or a bad thing in the complicated world of finance?

Neil,
My opinion of BK or anyone else is completely irrelevant .... my opinion of the 2 major ground decisions that he has presided over is the real issue.... since these are by definition the ones that may have greatest bearing on the club’s whole future..... these are the ones that we have been lied to about! Not some trivial non-issue, just possibly the most important decision in the clubs history. You think it’s ok to deceive your fanbase.... I think its a disgrace as did the vast majority of shareholders at the last AGM/EGM, remember them?!

Rich, it;s clearly not that bad in the current football business, so it looks like we can survive it without too much risk. Clearly we would be better off with a major capital injection. But I don’t see the banks shutting us down just yet (they’ve just refinanced over five times our debt at our neigbours), and I still expect us to be able to sign some players this summer, but we will see. I wouldn’t panic if I were you. Do you think we are in some kind of serious financial danger?

Tom, fine to focus on the ground issue. As I pointed out re Christine’s post above, then I think obviously there is a really important debate to be had which can get beyond the silly Kenwright character assassination. Although the ground issue is not as simple and easy to solve as many make out. When you are poor you tend only to have poor options.

Unfortunately Tom of course you relentlessly criciticise Kenwright about lots of other matters - indeed, on absolutely any point on which I give him any credit, as you demonstrated above. I should ignore it, but that’s when I tend to feel that we are more in the business of crucifying Kenwright than debating the real issues the club faces.

Neil,
Whilst you’re certainly right in saying that "We aren’t going to get anywhere by simply blaming everything on Kenwright", he as Chairman and therefore chief custodian of our club must take and be held to responsibility when he makes errors. In the same way that David Moyes must ultimately take responsibility for how our team perform on the park because it is his decisions which directly correlate to our results. Of course it is more complicated because there are the 11-14 players who represent the team. Obviously some of these individuals get singled out for praise/criticism. We also have injuries, but it would be harsh to signal out the physio for not getting them fit enough. There are external factors, such as the team who we are playing against, or at times the referee... but it is ultimately the manager who has his head on the chopping block if the team fails to deliver on the pitch even though there’s all the backroom staff etc (obviously jobs often dependent on the manager too).

But when there’s a lack of investment, or we have a pathetic marketing presence in our home town (let alone nationally/internationally) then fault cannot lie with David Moyes. Commercial Directors, CEOs etc... but ultimately it is down to the chairman, especially when he’s searching "24/7" (always good to dig that out)!

I don’t hate Bill at all, but if the blame lies further than the Chairman for the commercials, manager selection, funding, etc then the fact that he was part of the Johnson era should be damming in itself. I appreciate not having transparency, but I don’t like being lied to. as I wrote early on in this thread, I am happy more than to congratulate Bill, DM, Robert Elstone, the players, backroom staff when they get things right, but when things aren’t going well on the field ultimately Moyes takes responsibility and makes changes - off the field BK fequently goes to ground.

Normally Neil I dont suffer fools gladly, but I’m I find youre stance facinating If you have a problam in any organisation then you have to route it out and I’m affraid we all agree that our problem is investment, that problem lays fairly and squarely at the feet of Bill Kenwright.

Neil, I could get into the detail of your reply but really it's not worth the debate.
What is of issue is rather simple as Chad says, on the field if you don’t perform your dropped or sold. As a manager if your team doesn’t perform you get sacked.

So, commercially just who carries the can if the CLUB doesn’t perform?

What you are really saying is that for all BK’s weaknesses, gaffs, missed opportunities, manipulating etc... hs strengths obviously must out weigh those fuck-ups.

Well, that's were I have a problem. As I have said NUMEROUS times, it's right that BK share in the success on the field but it's also right that he carried the can for decisions made off the field. The problem is those stuff-ups are glossed over by a good manager, not a good CEO or chairman. They (rightly to some degree) bask in that reflected glory. But that's all it is, reflected glory.

I for one (check back on some of my early season posts) believe Moyes and Kenwright fell out before the start of the season because of the lack of funding and possibly promises made and not kept. It was not just about Moyes contract (check Moyes's comments re available funds) — Who carries the can for that?

Lastly I am sure you can point to a thousand comments by posters who critisize BK (but not hate... I can’t recall anyone saying they HATE him). I am quite sure too that we will never be party to all the facts BUT the FACT is he has been at the top of the pile for some bad decisions and I reiterate, in a corporate world you are held to account by the shareholders except when you hold the majority shareholding, then you can change the rules, as Bill elected to do.

Bill has some powerful allies in the club — why? Because he is such a great guy and never stuffs up?? Or perhaps its because a few will of them will profit if a large investor comes along and offers to buy therm out... I suspect that's what they are all hoping for. Personally, I doubt that will happen

Neil,

Poor, very poor.

The Bill Kenwright role of honour consists of:

1. Appointing and keeping Moyes;
2. Creating stability at the club;
3. Retaining stars; and
4. Bringing integrity to our club.

Neil,

Even before ripping that list to shreds, you have to admit, that’s a piss poor ’role of honour’! That's about as abstract as it gets.

I’ll give you appointing and keeping Moyes — even though I don’t think Kenwright had any option other than keeping him.

But stability? Our debt has increased from £20 odd mill to at least £66mill under Kenwright... stability you say? So, you think stability involves increasing your debt, while bringing in no investment, and living off Rooney money? Yeah, pull the other one. And even if we had become stable, this is a man who admits to knowing nothing about the inner workings of the club... as he’s apparently ’only a fan’. Yet you want to give him credit for making the club stable?

Retaining stars? Ludicrous. How many bids have we turned down for our ’stars’? You don’t know that we’ve even had a single bid for anyone other than Rooney... who we hardly retained! SO that’s a load of bollocks too.

And that brings me to integrity... Bill Kenwright has zero integrity. He is a man who will say whatever he needs to say to get him out of a hole. He wouldn’t know integrity if it bit him on the backside. The litany of decisions and PR own goals that show an undeniable lack of integrity are there for all to see.

No doubt, you’ll deny them Neil.

And so to Kirkby, Neil. You critisize Tom because no-one has presented alternative options to the club for investment or location. Two Months ago, our CEO said as a matter of record, that the club had not pursued any other options other than Kirkby for over three years. Do the sums... when was the vote??

So much for having pursued every available option...

Did I recall also that at the EGM the club was actually asked what options they had considered and suitably investigated?? And the reply was???

I bet the club are cursing the day they went to the fans with that Hobson's Choice of a vote. A mandate? When all in it has been refuted, diluted, rejected and ridiculed. So tell me, where are all the Yes voters now? Still the best option?

You're right to say also that a ground share would be a better alternative to Kirkby. It would and with funding from Gov agencies and council it could be made to work, but guess what? Neither club wants it to happen. Probably for vastly differing reasons... so, unless LFC end up truly in the poo and have no-one to turn too, it won’t happen. Which is a shame. It's a better solution than Kirkby anyday.

If EFC where really serious about exploring all the move options (which the CEO tells us they are not) then my best options would be Scotland Road because it would be the first club in the city, closest to the transport hubs, seen first by anyone coming to the city... and yes, we would be the most prominent sporting landmark. Befitting to the club and its tradition.

Credibility, Neil. When BK says we have explored all the options... does a cursory glance suffice? EFC have not carried out their own studies into anything other than Kirkby. Does that suffice? Are there questions that have been sidestepped, ignored or have we been hoodwinked... Of course we have. You don't HAVE to know all the facts — you only have to listen to the comments and the answers.

That's why I have a problem. In a nutshell. Credibility.

Michael,

Is HD really that good? And the pause function – not to mention rewind and slo –mo. You really do have all the same technologies as me don’t you.
When I use these functions, which I often do, they never give me anywhere near as accurate an indication of a players performance, effort or skill level as actually being at the game live.

This site often offers a very different discussion and opinion to those which I experience on a matchday – without doubt. The point I am making is that, in my opinion, those of us lucky enough to attend the majority of games tend to see things differently to you. You, my sensitive soul, should accept this view point as a creditable opinion and recognise it as an opinion only – no more or no less.

If you are talking about people presenting their credentials to enforce recognition why do you feel the need to add your little ‘Editorial Team’ statement after your name?

I have never stated that any opinion is more or less respected. Perhaps the word ‘types’ should have been used instead on ‘level’ although, as the above suggests, I still stand by the principle of the comment. No persons opinion is more valuable than the next persons but, depending on the experiences of the person, they may view things very differently.

On a jovial note I do have one request Michael; can you please refrain from ever using your infamous and legendary ‘we finished fourth but we had a negative goal difference’ spiel. A stat which I don’t think many season ticket holders from that season were really too bothered about and one of the most bizarre opinions I have heard in my history of EFC.

Suzy ;-)

"Kirkby is simply Bill’s fault. Kings Dock was simply Bill’s fault. Not having enough money to compete with the top four is Bill’s fault. Not having a rich new owner is Bill’s fault."

The most sensible thing you’ve ever posted, Neil

Neil I asked you earlier about our equity gearing ratios, you seemed to be saying through your drivel that our figures of —230 (gearing) and -79% (equity) are comparatively good compared to other clubs.

Well I've found Blackburn’s which read +52 (equity) — very healthy!! You see they have assets. +80 (gearing) as they are not funding unsustainable debt currently around £25 million.

I won't expect a reply from you as it’s obvious that you've been murdered again on here. More figures to come as I get them.