If recent articles are to be believed, it seems Destination Kirkby is looking more a likelihood than a possibility. For many of us the nightmare may be about to become a reality, but what would happen if our worst fears are confirmed?
The custodians have been handed their get-out-of-jail card ? they will always claim, "it's what you voted for".
Tesco wont say anything at all, they`ll be far too busy steamrolling the objections of they`re next "prey"
The yes voter will tell himself, "we were dying anyway, at least we tried." He did what he believed was right and will always be able to look himself in the mirror.
The abstainer will tell you he was never happy with DK but couldn't vote against it. However, he didn't vote yes, therefore he cannot be blamed. He`ll probably find himself a new fence to sit on.
That leaves the no voter. He`ll always be convinced his view was held by the majority. He`ll growl, "you killed my club". He`ll observe with a seething resentment as this once great club dies a slow undignified death. His claims that he, "knew all along this would happen," will provide him with no comfort at all. He`ll be haunted.
He`ll be haunted because he`ll know he could have done more. He`ll be haunted because all he ever did was to bitch amongst his mates in the ale house or on forums like this rather than do something about it.
He`ll be haunted by his own apathy.
Guys, the clock is ticking. If we're to fight this, we need to match the board's determination. It's time to put up or shut up. We need to stop claiming we are the majority, now is the time to prove it.
The fans who claimed the vote was unfair, time to prove it.
The diehards who claimed they were robbed of a no vote because they couldnt afford a season ticket, you too, guys. Time to prove it.
KEIOC, how determined are you? Can you match the Tesco resolve? Time to prove it
Despite what the spin merchants would have you believe, we are the paying customer, the club cannot survive without us. We therefore have the whip hand. Several options are open to us, from minor protests, to the more serious collective withdrawal of our support. Initially, I would favor a show of strength.
A guy recently called for everyone to wear red at Goodison for the Blackburn game. Predictably this wasn't the most popular suggestion but what if we were to wear white? Everyone's got a white shirt or tee shirt, or knows somebody who`ll lend them one for 90 minutes.
If the overwhelming majority really are against moving to kirkby, then Goodison would look like it was hosting a bloody England game. This would have several repercussions, the "get over it" crowd would be silenced, but far more importantly, the wearing of white would be a protest against all the misleading information we were fed in the build up to the ballot.
The custodians would no longer be able to hide behind their "mandate".
Needless to say, any protest would have to be peaceful. Anything other than a peaceful protest would merely draw adverse publicity. There should be no comment/abuse/critcism of anyone who chooses not to wear white ? we are all Blues. Likewise, the people who choose not to wear white would be expected to not comment/abuse or criticise anyone who does.
I don't claim this to be the perfect idea, or original, I`d be more than happy to support a better one. Apathy has brought us to the place we are at now. People who bury their heads in the sand long enough, usually find someone will take liberties and boot them up the arse. If we can show the club we are the overwhelming majority, we are in a strong position to take the next step, if neccesary.
I can already hear the howls from the Yes camp, but I would ask all no voters to count the number of times they've taunted you with, "if people feel as strongly as that, where's the protest?"
One more point: this could backfire, the white shirts may be the ones that are out-numbered, but at least you would have had your opportunity.
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1 Posted 22/07/2008 at 06:09:46
2 Posted 22/07/2008 at 07:28:27
Another possibilty I think is that many fans think that as usual our club will falter when "show us the money" came to the fore. We have called an EGM now so let's see what the Board have to say about why our fans were misled so much to the reality of it all now. Tesco, Knowsley and Everton knew from the start the real figures, type of stadium and transport nightmare PLUS Sainsbury's approached Everton about Walton Park before the vote !
I could go on but we will deserve the future that beckons. Why? Because we were apahetic in the main at the time of the vote. We don?t like doing our dirty washing in public but these ?custodians? are taking us to the clkeaners. It's just so sad. We were easily duped.
3 Posted 22/07/2008 at 08:01:39
Anyhow, I guess we will just have to wait and see.
4 Posted 22/07/2008 at 08:22:44
5 Posted 22/07/2008 at 08:54:06
6 Posted 22/07/2008 at 08:49:23
i?ve been sayng for ages that if we?re really the majority we need to show it!
What game? Blackburn?
Also will KEIOC be willing to hand out tee-shirts to those that didn?t hear about it?
7 Posted 22/07/2008 at 08:33:16
When I approach GP along Goodison Road it looks shabby and run down, have they done this on purpose in order to win the vote? BK states that no one would invest in us now because we have two teams in the city, oh and Manchester, Birmingham and London don?t, has he said this on purpose in order to win the vote? Let?s say I am a tourist coming into Liverpool, all I see is RS with no mention of us, look at all of the Capital of Culture paraphernalia. Surely Everton wouldn?t allow this, or have they allowed this to happen on purpose in order to win the vote?
Lies, lies, lies.
I have just dropped my son off at work in Knowsley and the local pub is advertising Liverpool’s match tonight, don?t Everton play PNE tonight? The JJB store has banners of the new Liverpool home and away strips and the store is crammed with red merchandise at the entrance with the Everton merchandise shoved away in the far corner, haven?t we launched (LOL) our new strip or is our website lying?
Do you really think things will get better if we move?
Let?s change our motto: Ave Everton! Morituri te salutamus - Hail Everton! We who are about to die salute you.
Wear white and show the board that we think they are shite!!
8 Posted 22/07/2008 at 09:40:43
A big - Liverpool FC Capital of Culture 08 - on the back and with a big X through it. Do it in red so controversial
Ave Everton! Morituri te salutamus across the front, shows culture i.e. Latin.
Good publicity in this one me thinks, just need a few bob to sort them.
9 Posted 22/07/2008 at 10:50:03
10 Posted 22/07/2008 at 10:45:07
ITS NEVER TOO LATE
11 Posted 22/07/2008 at 11:08:31
A good simple idea and one that doesn’t mean ’too much’ effort or disrupting games etc (I know someone else had a similar idea, but white instead of red makes this one a goer).
You’re right, the time has come to do something other than just argue the toss here (although I will continue to do that!)
12 Posted 22/07/2008 at 11:55:58
13 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:17:34
14 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:19:08
15 Posted 22/07/2008 at 11:54:05
One problem is getting the message across to those who don?t use the internet. There will be many who would support the idea but turn up wearing blue as normal because they didn?t know about it. Obviously, providing white shirts to these people is a non starter so what about having coloured cards to hold up at 3pm or 2.55pm? These could be handed out outside the ground.
Maybe not white though as that could be seen as a surrender to the idea. I would go for red to signify stopping the move but some would object to this. Maybe bright yellow as in showing the DK idea the yellow card?
I suggest this protest takes place whether it is called in or not - if DK is still on the agenda it goes ahead!
Come on - rise up!
16 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:23:09
I’d be willing to contribute £20-30 if someone knows how to set it up?
17 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:21:22
18 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:24:15
19 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:27:38
See http://www.keioc.net/index.php?page=donations for more information.
By the way, I am not involved with KEIOC but I do support them in their goal.
20 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:35:25
21 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:33:19
Surely a public notice should be acceptable?
I know current rates for a quarter page on the right hand side is currently £350 plus VAT where I work.
Full pages are upto and over a grand depending on colour/night etc.
22 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:37:04
"If the Government do call it in, the planning process could be extended by more than a year and kill off the £400million project."
"Such a situation would severely damage Everton?s dreams of moving the club forward to be able to compete with the big four of English football"
The latter paragraph demonstrating that the Echo clearly have a pro-Kirkby viewpoint
I?m afraid, the only way to really drive the message home is through non attendance of the first game. T-shirts is all well and good but I doubt the current board would take a blind bit of notice.
23 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:39:34
24 Posted 22/07/2008 at 12:41:07
Oh, and those massage parlours and escort agencies aren?t clients of Trinity Newspapers like Everton FC are they? Who publishes the programmes and the Evertonian again?
25 Posted 22/07/2008 at 13:08:47
A cracking idea - ’Wave your helmet at Wyness’
Now, where does the young ’un keep his Bob the Builder outfit?
26 Posted 22/07/2008 at 13:05:27
I think the T-shirt idea is more attainable than non-attendance, especially with us all being starved of footy this summer.
I agree the Echo wouldn?t probably run it anyway. I too thought those comments highlighted seemed very biased when I read them.
The more I hear the more it seems like the ballot was run like a Zimbabwian election. Be careful wearing the t-shirts near the ground we might get beaten with sticks!!
27 Posted 22/07/2008 at 13:19:12
Not everyone will have access to a hard hat and it will cost a lot to provde them. Also, the stewards would be instructed not to let them into the ground in case they are used as weapons/missiles.
28 Posted 22/07/2008 at 13:38:22
Quick question for you, what will the ’no’ voter think if the club actually thrives after a move to Kirkby?
Just asking like.
29 Posted 22/07/2008 at 13:34:04
What about a Facebook group - kids can then tell their parents about it. Or a dedicated website so people can find out more about it?
Something as simple as talking about it down the pub, or at the friendly matches - we are scousers after all - the friendliest bunch of people on earth so it shouldn’t be too hard to spread the word.
30 Posted 22/07/2008 at 14:36:10
There has been another "delay".
Good news ? Bad news ? Who knows !!??
31 Posted 22/07/2008 at 14:28:15
32 Posted 22/07/2008 at 14:37:08
I think the tee-shirt idea is good. (Still think black over white though)
33 Posted 22/07/2008 at 14:41:27
Let's have a good think about the best way to try and prevent this disaster taking place.
34 Posted 22/07/2008 at 15:19:44
I don't believe the fans should have been given the option to vote by the way and I think that is the fundamental thing wrong with this whole scenario.
A board's job is to make the big decisions,... if they want the fans to do it then give me the money they are on.
However, as the vote went ahead and the ?majority? voted for Destination Kirkby, then everyone else should conform.
This is about the good of the club... let's face it no-one is going to buy us at Goodison without a revamp which isn't practical.
I think we should put trust in the Board and let them make the decisions instead of thinking that its our job. We are the fans.... Our job is to SUPPORT the team; they are the board.... their job is to make the DECISIONS; and DM is the manager and his job is to look after the TEAM.
The point at which a club falls is when people get confused about their jobs and start trying to do other people's.
And for god's sake don't protest at a match... what are you kopites????!!!!??? We don't want our dirty laundry done in public like the shower on the other side of Stanley Park do we?????
35 Posted 22/07/2008 at 15:32:32
36 Posted 22/07/2008 at 15:37:24
Well I ask this?
Were do we go if not Kirby.... there isnt another option to my knowledge where a large proportion of the stadium will be paid for by someone else.
Wake up and smell the roses mate.... we aint got the money to build our own stadium... we need Tesco.
That's it in black and white.
37 Posted 22/07/2008 at 15:33:36
"However, as the vote went ahead and the ?majority? voted for Destination Kirby then everyone else should conform".
I?d like to say that personally, I find it MUCH more offensive being told being told I should ?conform? than I ever would being told to ?go fuck myself? or to ?fuck off?.
Consequently, I think you?re a conforming conformer who should go conform himself (with a cactus...sideways!)
38 Posted 22/07/2008 at 16:03:46
Otherwise what's the point of a vote?
With all due respect the people who are complaining are the people who voted against the move and it's simply a case of throwing rattles out of prams because the vote didn't go their way.
Another point I've just thought of..... if you're on here voicing extremely one sided opinions and you're not a season ticket holder you should stop causing trouble... wot difference will it make to you???? You wont have to go to Kirkby whoever this applies to.
39 Posted 22/07/2008 at 14:13:02
40 Posted 22/07/2008 at 17:03:13
41 Posted 22/07/2008 at 17:38:43
The t shirt idea is a goer - but as said above, this could back fire if the advertisment falls short and fans dont know. I’m more than happy to contribute to the organisers too - afterall Ive saved a shed load of hula what with not being able to buy any Everton merchandising for ages. For what its worth, the red tshirt would be much more dramatic. Failing that, yellow seems more appropriate. Whatever we go with, the boys at bluekipper et al should all be asked to run the story too.
42 Posted 22/07/2008 at 17:57:44
43 Posted 22/07/2008 at 17:47:16
44 Posted 22/07/2008 at 18:00:08
They will stand out, and a black marker pen could be used to add a box with a cross in it, next to the word NO.
45 Posted 22/07/2008 at 18:08:03
Advertise in all the local rags... all the EFC fan sites, everywhere you can, and hold the protest at the Bkackburn game (full house guaranteed).
I believe that all those who complained of not getting a vote, or that the vote was rigged, or that everybody who abstained was a "No" voter will get a chance to once and for all prove their point...
Also the request that anybody not wearing a white shirt i:e ME.. will not recieve any abuse and vice versa would be nice, if observed. I have found the "No camp" in the main to be bullying, moronic and short-sighted... if there were enough of them to do things "mob handed" I'm sure they will...
What I would ask is no tactics such as we have seen with the trying to put stickers on people going into the ground against their will... or standing round with "spare" white shirts to harangue people into wearing...
If, as I believe, a huge MINORITY of fans will turn up in white, will the No camp admit they are in the minority anf leave us alone???
I myself will, if it happens, support the majority... because they are the ones who will be there, Goodison, Kirkby or elsewhere, and I will be beside them, supporting my team...
Not once though ? St Georges Hall, The Casa... anywhere... Goodison itself ? have I seen more than a handful of protesters out of the 36,000 regulars who attend games....I suspect once again... the bark will be much worse than the bite.
46 Posted 22/07/2008 at 18:28:15
The person who mentioned the train....If you read what I have said, I said that I didn't think there should be a vote, I think that the board should decide but as there was one basically we have to grin and bear the outcome.
The fellar who's not a season ticket holder..... I'm pleased you're a blue mate, honestly I am..... but I struggle to see how this affects you??? Basically you watch the odd game on tele, yes?
All I was saying was the vote was a waste of time... .coz the people who don't like the outcome act like a bunch of kids...... You really are going to look like Kopites if you go to the match in high vis vests or t-shirts
At the end of the day the supporters should concentrate on supportin the team. And I've got grounds to say this more than some because I live in Wirral and I didn't miss a home game last season!
Any replies welcome and will be answered!
47 Posted 22/07/2008 at 18:33:51
I’m not a season ticket holder, but Im at GP many times a season -I simply cant afford every single match Chris when you add on travel etc - sorry I live in the midlands and have a realitively shyte paid job. However, I dont have to justify myself to you. I am as much an Evertonian as any of us and this debate is about those who can think for themselves making a gesture to the club to show that we haven’t accepted their bullshit and we think theres sufficient information out there to suggest we are being given a very shyte deal with Kirkby (Im not suggesting yes voters cannot think for themselves here, just that you cant Chris). Demonstration is normal in a democratic life. Blind conformity is the norm in a dictatorship.
48 Posted 22/07/2008 at 18:32:02
49 Posted 22/07/2008 at 18:59:05
50 Posted 22/07/2008 at 19:15:06
51 Posted 22/07/2008 at 19:30:41
That is where you are wrong....there was a choice!
There was a good piece on the bbc website today, it read thus.....say Everton were given a nice portion of Stanley Park by our wonderful council, how could we afford the 250 million plus we need to build the stadium?
Whatever way you look at it, DK is fantastic value for money in todays terms.
52 Posted 22/07/2008 at 19:39:41
Winning a majority in a vote doesn?t make everything the winners do 100% right
Hitler and Thatcher prove that
As history proves, protest and resistance aren?t always bad things, either
53 Posted 22/07/2008 at 19:47:28
54 Posted 22/07/2008 at 20:10:30
55 Posted 22/07/2008 at 19:38:58
Not many people own anything yellow and lots of people wouldnt know were they could get their hands on a hi viz or get the chance to get one.
Black would blend in too readily with non protesters.
It has to be white. it wouldn't cost a thing.
A tee shirt, a polo, even the one you wear if you work in an office, anything.
The younger people could wear the Nike/Stone Island/ Calvin caps, whatever they?ve got thats white, last seasons away shirt.
Imagine over half of Goodison bedecked in white? The effect would be dramatic. How on earth could the board pretend they didn't notice that?
Liked Tom?s idea too, adopting and perfecting a chant in time for the Blackburn game would be terrific. A sound AND vision protest.
Understood the point you were making about KEIOC, yes, they are just concerned fans like ourselves, but this is their fight too, they have a voice and can reach plenty of people who?ll be interested in this protest. I?m hoping they?ll throw their influence and support behind the idea.
Let's be proactive here guys, let's keep get - and keep - our protest on the front page.
56 Posted 22/07/2008 at 20:22:32
It was a simple one.......do you want to move?
We voted....yes.....that is caled a choice, a simple one, but a choice all the same.
I see you have not denied that DK is value for money, because of course it is.
It is the cheapest of ALL the options and a great deal for the club.
Phil....do you kow how much passion BK has?.....like many things happening behind the scenes at our great club........I don?t either!
57 Posted 22/07/2008 at 20:28:13
58 Posted 22/07/2008 at 22:10:55
I’m from hundreds of miles away and I can see the madness of this move, especially in the long term. Does anybody really think that after a 250 mile drive or whatever they have done, we should have to mess about with park and ride etc for up to an hour each way? Along with fuel prices, that’s the sort of nonsense that will discourage Everton’s more far flung support rom attending as often.
I rarely ever go to the Pub befor the match because I have the drive home. Maybe a quick Chang inside, but not a pub on County Road or wherever. But, I can tell you, if you haven’t actually noticed this, it’s the ones with a bit of beer inside them that stand up and get the chants going. That’s another thing that concerns me about Kirkby. The atmosphere is hardly going to be bearpit with people having had a couple of cappuccinos in the Tesco coffee shop is it? Having visited Cherrywood Drive I could see very little sign of pubs and certainly nothing like enough to get 50,000 Evertonians satisfied.
Out of the city means lack of facilities and poor transport links. It means a slow ecline in the support, especially if the team hits a sticky patch.
Whilst I agree with Colin Wordsworth that this is a comparatively cheap option, that does not make it the right one. Cheapest is rarely best, unless you need a short term solution. and are planning to do the right thing later. Moving stadia is not a short term project. End of.
59 Posted 22/07/2008 at 23:04:52
60 Posted 22/07/2008 at 23:03:39
I honestly believe the vote was bent, yes an outside democratic company conducted it but the club must have given them the names. It just can?t be right that most No voters like myself hardly knows a Yes voter and also the amount of people who didn?t get a vote but should've seems very strange... if only I could prove it.
61 Posted 23/07/2008 at 00:04:15
62 Posted 22/07/2008 at 23:50:41
63 Posted 23/07/2008 at 06:16:08
If we had another vote now I’m quite certain the outcome would be different. Every poll indicates such, and there have been numerous threads started by YES voters who regret their "choice" with none of the opposite persuasion. If the club placed any properly thought-through option alongside Kirkby then it would receive next to no votes. It only managed 59% of the vote when it had everything stacked in its favour. With each revealed lie, that has reduced, not to mention the 11,000 abstainers who now too will have formed a more informed opinion. So, what do you suggest, we should still jump into the fire despite Kirkby not being anything like what it "said on the tin"?
64 Posted 23/07/2008 at 07:02:02
I agree with you BUT the deal as described by Lieness has turned out to be a pack of lies.
Also has it ever crossed your mind that the vote was given to the fans so that Kenwright could never be accused of removing Everton Football Club from the city ?
65 Posted 23/07/2008 at 08:24:03
1. No, I don't want to move from GP
2. No, I don't believe DK is "value for money".
3. No, I don't believe DK is the cheapest of all options.
I would go into further detail to support the above answers, but this has been done over and over again on this site and others but you are not reading / understanding. I base this conclusion on the notion you think we have a real choice. My only choice now is exactly what was outlined to me above ? either follow Everton to Kirkby or don't. As I?ve stated through a simple analogy I hope you were able to keep up with ? I dont regard this as a choice. You simply added to this "choice" a fictional notion involving Stanley Park which is not on the table.
66 Posted 23/07/2008 at 09:06:55
67 Posted 23/07/2008 at 08:10:36
I am a Yes voter, I live in Walton (shock Horror). I agree completely with you trying to stage some sort of objection to moving. Yes the majority voted for the move. But that does not mean that anyone who disagrees should just accept it.
All I would ask is that you try and protest in way that will not affect the team on a match day.
Another site I visit were talking about protesting outside Goodison on the night of the EGM.
68 Posted 23/07/2008 at 08:53:26
It's been over a year almost. The move has been sent to government and maybe called in, and been delayed TWICE, and what have people who don't want to move done? Very little to actually cause something to change anything apart from vent anger on forums.
"Yeah let's protest the 1st game of the season" Briliant, a good 2-3 weeks after a decision has been made, and if it doesnt get called in it?ll already be in motion. You think a protest would stop a multi-million pound development that?s been given the greenlight? No.
Which has me thinking that --
A) People are still for the move...
B) There aren't enough people against it to make a significant difference.
Nothing has been done on all fronts minus the only thing councils etc had and that?s to request a call-in. Other than that who?s done anything to make a difference?
Have council men joined KEIOC or paid for, funded, anything to make a substantial difference? Has aything been lobbied on mass? All I?ve seen is a petition. WOW. They?ve had time to do something and maybe a week before a decision is made, nothing is not going to change anything.
We?re going or not going, it's simple as and nothing can change any outcome IMO.
69 Posted 23/07/2008 at 09:39:26
Small measure, I know: but the Official Site has now confirmed that the petition for the EGM is valid. In typical fashion, they?ve tucked this news away in the archive section (link below)
However, they?ve left the nice little "like this story?" thumbs-up gizmo graphic at the foot of it. Currently there are just short of 600 people who applaud the EGM. It would be nice if this story eclipsed the number of "thumbs-up" received for the Kilfoyle story.
70 Posted 23/07/2008 at 09:58:17
71 Posted 23/07/2008 at 10:05:52
An example of this is my dad who wasn't fussed either way about the move until I showed him all the evidence I collated online... He couldn't beleive it ? especially when i showed him the simplistic table format that the two shareholders had devised to outline the wrongs of this move.
This got me thinking what if we could get KEIOC or somebody of that ilk to run off copies of that table on paper and have a big NO or X on the other side, and hand them out on matchday, then everyone could get a balanced and informed view of what is going on.
72 Posted 23/07/2008 at 10:45:01
The fact that we have got to a point where Hazel Blears is even considering calling it in is testament to the fact that many blues have quietly badgered away e-mailing officials at all levels arguing the case. I am not saying of course that the local council?s objections have not played the major part in getting plans reviewed; I am merely suggesting that the Internet and its attendant Evertonian network groups have maintained a high line of resistance. Maybe we need to consider a different form of direct action (electronic) to ?hurt? or disrupt the club, KBC or TESCO. All these institutions will rely on computers to function perhaps some ?teccie? type IT nerd can think of a totally legal strategy of group e-mails? to disable them. Maybe the authors could of the different major forums could get together and think of a co-ordianted response.
I am not dismissing some form of visual protest (personally I can think nothing more offensive than wearing red! rather than white) as a bad idea, just trying to think of a more diverse strategy than the usual forms of protests.
73 Posted 23/07/2008 at 12:50:01
74 Posted 23/07/2008 at 12:55:33
75 Posted 23/07/2008 at 13:44:25
I can do them for a quid a pop, just send me your credit card details to firstname.lastname@example.org
76 Posted 23/07/2008 at 16:09:44
1) Over complicating things
2) Publicity and alerting people
IMHO, the key to getting ANY kind of mass participation it to KEEP IT SIMPLE.
As it was for the last protest, my idea for the organisers - be that KEIOC or whoever- is similar to the T-shirts/colours idea but requires much less pre-planning, publicity and expense.
In short - you get everybody to hold up a coloured piece of paper at a pre-designated time - sort of like the "Show the red card to racism" campaign.
As stated above, the most "shocking" colour would be red but that brings obvious problems with Evertonians (!) so maybe yellow (i.e. a yellow card ?) would be effective.
If costs are an issue, the coloured paper could simply be blank A4 with the people handing them out TELLING people when to hold them up (or with a sign explaining)
However if minimal printing is OK then a SIMPLE message on each sheet would suffice - "If you object to Kirkby - hold this up for XX minutes after kick-off/half-time" etc.
If a bit more printing is affordable - a big "NO to Kirkby" with the same simple message would be my choice.
I think this keeps it as simple as possible and all it requires is as much yellow paper as can be carried - and of course - people can bring their own paper (or boxes of paper !) if they wish to contribute/support/help out.
Above all - KEEP IT SIMPLE ! No "propoganda", no "facts", no "spin" - there is no need for that anymore - just "if you object - do this".
(And well done Dave Wilson on the original article by the way - an excellent point well made.)
77 Posted 23/07/2008 at 18:51:22
78 Posted 23/07/2008 at 18:45:23
I understand the thinly disguised pro-Kirkby brigade claiming it's too little too late, they would, wouldn't they.
The Blackburn game is only three weeks from Saturday, even If DK is given the nod in the meantime, do you really believe if 25,000 people descended upon GP creating a sea of white, that Blue Bill would push ahead? He?d have been deprived of his "precious" mandate !
DK represents the biggest gamble of his life and even the most foolish of gambler?s would require some glimmer of hope that they can succeed.
There?s a hell of a lot of people calling for the democratic process to be upheld; my sentiment entirely. We are far better informed today than we were when the club attempted to lead us up the garden path with promises of a world class stadium etc etc . . . A show of hands - or white shirts - NOW would represent a much purer example of democracy.
I can't help laughing at the the people who come on here saying things like "give it up guys, there's only a handful of you". If that's the case, I wonder whats troubling them? Trust your own eyes and ears, you know there are thousands and thousands of anti-DK Blues, you?ve seen and heard them for yourselves, - so too have the people urging you to "give it up".
Support this protest, guys , as Paul McMonnies points out we can't afford to complicate the issue so let's stick with wearing white - keep things simple.
We don't have a ready made outlet like the Post/Echo nor the club's OS, but we can reach right across Evertonia through the independent sites such as TW. Get the message out, post to all other sites, tell all your mates to tell their mates
Urge everyone who says he?s anti-DK to wear white at the Blackburn game, remind him/her that if they don't support this protest, they really should forever hold their peace.
79 Posted 23/07/2008 at 22:30:26
If you can get to the Blackburn game and you're anti-Kirkby then wear a white T/shirt/shirt.
It's no use moaning about the move and then doing nothing.
If you go and don't wear a white shirt don't bother posting messages about the ground move.
Time is running out and the no vote need to do something now.
80 Posted 23/07/2008 at 22:59:26
You can hand out yellow cards to people who are against Kirkby but didn’t hear about the protest but you can’t hand out white shirts.
Also, it might rain so if everyone wears a top or jacket, the effect of the white shirt is lost unless everyone removes their top at a specified time.
81 Posted 24/07/2008 at 02:37:08
was at the game last night, as a previous poster said there was some anti-Kirkby chanting but as he also said it was just a few lads at the back. I think we might have to consider the cold dark truth that most Evertonians are in favour or at least not bothered about the move. Very very sad. ..."
Well I don?t think it was sad I just think it proves the vast majority live in the real world not just on internet forums.The YES voters have spoken, and please remember..the No voters came 3rd in a 2 horse race..
82 Posted 24/07/2008 at 04:11:45
Over 10,000 voted against even considering Kirkby when it was supposed to be a world class stadium, when it was supposed to be practically nothing and when it was supposed to be the most accessible stadium in the country. This is by far the biggest vote against any move proposal the club has ever made, despite there being no single alternative option other than "doom"! Every single poll that has taken place and numerous threads since have shown that many yes voters have now changed their minds, and the abstainers not convinced either way back in august are hardly likely to be enthused by Kirkby now. The real world is: This is a very average stadium (at best) in a poorly served location (transport wise), at a much higher cost than originally stated. Evertonians normally react to what goes on on the pitch only, so this is alien to all of us, but the main problem is many have been convinced it couldn?t really happen, now some are making their views heard. I?ve a feeling that murmur will grow into a Goodison Roar if this edges any closer.
83 Posted 24/07/2008 at 05:24:57
I know what you're saying mate, but your idea would need co-ordination and volunteers, the majority of us would never have taken part in a protest in our lives, we don't have "protest skills".
The onus has to be placed on the individual. It's absolutely imperative that any protest is a peaceful one, the choice of white would be to emphasise this ? it would be symbollic
Tommy Gibbons is the latest yes voter to try to discourage you, he talks about "the real world". If Tommy walks in the streets, drinks in the pubs, goes to the games, he?ll know that the overwhelming majority of Blues in "the real world" are completely opposed to the DK proposal.
Support the protest, prove it
Gareth Humphreys, Nice one mate, keep the faith, spread the word.
I?m off home to bed.
84 Posted 24/07/2008 at 06:27:52
You obviously didn?t go to Preston where the scally rabble tried to get Kirkby chants going... didn?t happen because the real world Evertonians know we have to move on, they?ve already voted Yes and will await the outcome peacefully.
The No?s lost the vote, have bullied and cajoled ordinary Evertonians, shouted shite like that from Tom Hughes about refurbishing GP plainly forgetting that LCC don?t want us so won?t help, ignoring the fact that (just as in Kirkby) people will lose their homes etc and totally ignoring the fact we?re skint! But I know one thing... unlike the No?s, if the decision goes against us, we?ll still follow the club... wherever they end up!
85 Posted 24/07/2008 at 07:42:08
Unfortunately, I am in the middle of the north sea and was unable to attend the other night. However, I did receive a call off one friend during the match asking me to listen to the chanting which he was joining in with at the time. He’s not a scally (most of the time) but a professional engineer, others with him similarly well qualified and of the same opinion. The protesters seemed quite vociferous, but I suppose it can be deceptive..... but no more than the now age-old misconceptions you’re still trying to pass off as "reasons" to support Kirkby. Once again, as ever no comment about the actual issues/facts as laid out in simplest terms previously. (I wonder why?). As far as shouting shite.... I can give you scale drawings you can only offer unsubstantiated rhetoric! Stadium Architects have stated GP can be redeveloped, especially as we now are able to find £78m+ for Kirkby. When have you been bullied or cajolled? Personally, I was sent hate e-mail when I dared to show what could be done at GP, however, I don’t believe it has anything to do with the relative merits of Kirkby/redevelopment. In Kirkby over 70 homes are being demolished and a care home and a whole school. The demolitions in Walton need not be anything like as extensive depending on the format chosen. As far as LCC not wanting us.... The heads of both main Parties in the council and the heads of planning are all EFC season Ticket holders and have repeatedly stated the opposite. Not forgetting the Loop Proposals and Kings Dock. BTW, I have never said I’ll stop going. Apart from when working away (I have worked all over the world) I have only missed 3 home games since Alan Ball was playing, and am a season ticket and shareholder.
86 Posted 24/07/2008 at 07:48:02
IMO it would be better done at the last home friendly. This way it could be organised so that all those wanting to protest could be seated together which IMO would create a more powerful image.
Goodison colours are blue and white anyway, how noticeable would extra white t-shirts be?
87 Posted 24/07/2008 at 09:09:40
I admire the way you have led the ’no’ vote and respect your intelligent input into the stadium debate but there is one matter that I take issue with you and that is whether LCC would really help us of DK went tits up.
I take on board your comments regarding the politicians all being Evertonianons but on thing sticks out in my mind more than anything when I consider this particular point and that is Warren Bradley’s comments when news of DK first broke. You may recall that he said something along the lines of ’I will not give away tax payers land for nothing’ which was a direct reference to KBC’s free offer of land for DK.
I appreciate that the situation has changed since the beginning of the stadium debate but I stil have lingering doubts over whether LCC would actually come up with anything concrete in the event that DK did not go ahead and we look to LCC for assistance. I take the viewpoint that a lot of the comments now being made by Bradley, Anderson et al are simply politicians trying to either defend themselves from the inevitable criticism if DK goes ahead or make hay at their opponents expense.
88 Posted 24/07/2008 at 09:25:12
89 Posted 24/07/2008 at 09:22:29
- Keep it VERY basic and simple
- Make it something that EVERYONE can do
- Make it highly visible (I think the blue/white comment above is a relevant one)
The publicity for something like this is - as has been pointed out - a key factor, but over complicating things can cause less and less participation, and as time ticks on towards the first home game, a decision needs to be made so that word can spread.
Just to echo the sentiments from the original article, this is what I would say to everyone reading this.....
Forget everything that has happened before regarding the vote, what you voted, any arguments you have made in the past and just take a fresh look at this. Look at what was originally promised, and look at what has since been disproved. If you believe that this is wrong and if you don’t want the Kirkby move to go ahead, then you really MUST consider getting ACTIVELY involved.
I’m not ashamed to admit my participation in a previous protest which (for various reasons, but IMHO, it was for being over complicated and involved too much "propaganda") was fairly ineffective and involved me personally becoming the subject of ridicule and abuse, where I was even spat at by "fellow fans" as I walked along the front of the Gwladys Street.
I felt about as low as I ever have done about being an Evertonian that day.
But do I regret doing it ? Despite all that ? Despite all the ridicule and hatred from my "fellow fans" ? Do I hell ! Not a second of it !
As I said to myself at the time - this is WRONG. It is WRONG for the club and it is wrong for me - and if I don’t at least TRY to make my voice heard, then I really don’t think I can call myself an Evertonian any more, or raise my son as one.
And this is exactly the same situation. Kirkby is WRONG. I have no doubt of that in my mind and I’ll do everything I can to fight against it - so that I can continue to call myself an Evertonian and continue to raise my son as one with my head held high.
90 Posted 24/07/2008 at 16:50:08
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the ’no’ voters think Everton Football Club will die if we move to Kirkby?
The response is ’Yes’ I think.
So I’ll ask, how will we die?
Their replies are as follows:
1. Our heritage and identity will be lost.
2. Evertonians and their children will slowly start supporting Liverpool instead.
This is the basis of the ’No’ voters argument.
I believe ’the fear of the unknown’ like the way is a child is afraid of the dark is a very powerful emotion. The child will start imagining things and paraniod delusions will step in i.e monsters, ghosts, basically things that aren’t there.
This is what has happened to the ’no’ voters. Everton Football Club and it’s supporters will never forget our heritage, or our identity. And no Evertonian will ever follow Liverpool.
If we go to Kirkby, all that will happen is that the club will create even more heritage and history, and will continue to create more Evertonians.
Goodison Park was once a new ground. Those that opposed the move to Goodison formed Liverpool Football Club and stayed at the old ground called ’Anfield’.
I love Goodison Park only because it’s the current home of Everton Football Club.
I will love our new ground because it will be our home. I am not an Evertonian because of Goodison Park. We all hate leaving somewhere we’ve grown up with, but that is not a good enough reason to veto a move to pastures new.
We will always be Everton, wherever we go!
91 Posted 24/07/2008 at 17:55:01
They need some support from the "ordinary fans" who do not want Kirkby.
It is difficult I feel to get average Evertonians to do protests at games because they are behind the team and the manger.
I’ll happily drive the 60 miles to protest this move. I would echo the point made earlier only in a peaceful protest.
Can any of you see Kilfoyle turning up that night to address the locals?!
It is time to turn up the heat, I think.
92 Posted 24/07/2008 at 20:42:05
You're right, I wasn't at Preston ? don't think I?ve ever been to a friendly in my life, but I didn't miss a Prem away game last season and guess what? I didn't see one single case of bullying,
It's a real pity you feel the need to refer to fellow Evertonians as "scally rabble" simply because they dont share your point of view, still you?ve given us all a lift by anouncing the protests have started already ? there has'nt even been a call for one yet.
Tom Hughes is right, if there's already rumblings, imagine the mighty roar it will have become by the time the Blackburn game comes around...
Feel free to come back and tell us ? once again ? how unworried you are.
93 Posted 24/07/2008 at 20:59:04
Lack of adequate transport facilities to get to the stadia without adding a minimum of 1 hour before and after the game
Lack of parking nearby thus alienating disabled match goers (a 30 minute walk or crush loading into a train is not going to happen - this affects two of my passengers who have held season tickets for years 1 of which way before I was born) - how many season ticket holders could be lost and regenerated in a small town with a population of 42k to fill a 50k stadium?
Mistrust of everything the board and CEO have told the paying customers the fans - World Class has become mid range, when asked about transport "I don’t know I’m just a fan", no other alternative to GP would be plan B from BK himself, qualified and clever men like Trevor Skempton being silenced at the AGM, extra revenue streams from concerts and non football activities to KBCs nothing plus 100 freebies for themselves and a limit of 50k on the stadia to flatten KW’s attempt to rubbish the loop saying it could hold 75k. How many cyclist supporters do we have?
Heritage and location go hand in hand with a football team who has the largest documented walk up support in the country - do you honestly expect the walk up contingent to walk down the East Lancs to pay a higher price than they do now?
I’m sure many more people could add a swathe of other reasons but I’ll let you digest these few and respond to them in case you think I’m scared of ghosts and monsters that might be lurking in the shangri la of Kirkby.
94 Posted 24/07/2008 at 21:40:51
Its a real pity you feel the need to refer to fellow Evertonians as "scally rabble " simply because they dont share your point of view
TBH Dave I think you’ve got a real cheek saying that considering the abuse ’yes’ voters get on this site.
Nothing annoys me more than the insinuation that ’yes’ voters are ill informed on the issues surrounding the debate and don’t particularly care about the future of our great football club - see above for more examples.
I come on this site every couple of months to see if the same sour ramblings are being voiced and you it never fails to disappoint.
All this nonsence about if the vote was taken again blah blah blah. How many votes do people want, is one not good enough? As far as I know giving the fans a vote on such a major issue is unprecedented and yet the abuse the board has recieved (from certain quarters) has been ridiculous.
There was a vote, the majority voted yes, deal with it and start supporting the team you all proffess to love instead acting like petulant children!!
Roll on the abuse!!!!!
95 Posted 24/07/2008 at 22:48:56
96 Posted 24/07/2008 at 23:14:45
We had a vote based on completely inaccurate information, none of which even the club would dare to repeat now, yet you think such a vote is still valid and meaningfull?! In your opinion, at what point and after how many deceptions does it become a farce? These are fundamental issues, and you are trying to sweep them under the carpet. Everton Football Club is too important to too many of us for that to be allowed to happen. No abuse, no childish petulance, just simple facts! What you voted for doesn’t exist. What it actually is has avoided comparison and scrutiny at every turn..... and for good reason!
97 Posted 25/07/2008 at 07:17:19
Apologies, missed your previous posting.
I’m not sure what people are really asking for when they ask about what LCC will do for us etc. Especially when some still believe that our partnership with Tesco has been as fruitfull as first intimated, when in essence it has only really yielded the funding of one new stand and the plot it sits on is the freeby. Tesco are not themselves funding any part this, and yet we still need to find over 3/4 of the construction costs. Deal of the century, when we are in fact their enabler? If this does go tits up, the club will hardly be in any great bargaining position which would’ve been the case if the exclusivity deal wasn’t in place, however, the planning office have stated that they are more than receptive to ideas to accommodate expansion at the current site and have repeatedly invited the club to discuss this option, to no avail. It was also felt last year that the enabling development possibilities in and around the Loop site were also viable. The return on city centre developments can be much greater than out-of-town since the scope is generally broader and value’s are greater as was seen with the Kings Dock stadium where roughly 90% of the stadium costs where easily covered, as opposed to just over 20% at Kirkby. If development incentives were found, there is no reason why similar deals can’t be agreed with LCC as were done with KMBC, although I’m not sure how the current climate would see that.
98 Posted 25/07/2008 at 07:26:06
Ok, You have a point - been guilty myself of getting carried away
But I?m done arguing the right and wrongs of the move, opinions wont be changed by the arguments put forward on this site.
My article was purely for the no voter, although I accept the yes voters have the right to put their views forward too,
It was an attempt to move away from the name calling
Maybe we should all take a lesson from Christine, she faced a lot of insults for the Article she has recently submitted, most of it from obviously less intelligent people than herself. Her dignified responses kinda put them all in their places.
99 Posted 25/07/2008 at 07:43:23
I will still follow Everton if we move to Kirkby and I will still love the blues; however, there are many who wouldn?t and I respect them completely if they have the willpower to give up on the club they've followed for years.
Also I was on KEIOC.net (no, not a Japanese dentist) and I was looking at the letter a certain Tom Hughes sent to Wyness 4 years ago and between that, TW and the lies of Wyness my dad, who was a Yes, is now a No. A similar pattern is happening all round the Evertonian community and the board don?t seem to be realizing. So for anyone taking part in the protest, good luck and lets stop this shambes now.
100 Posted 25/07/2008 at 09:19:50
I just hope that they have now realised the error of their ways and do go out of their way to help us if we do not move to Kirkby.
Graham, the words ?stones? and ?glass houses? apply to you I?m afraid mate. In your original post you accused Yes voters of not caring about the club as much as No voters and of being from outside the city. I don?t think you could say anything more insulting to me than accusing me of not caring about my football team more than you do and yes I live in the city just like you and just like many other Yes voters.
You have no grounds on which to criticise other posters for abuse when you yourself are guilty of the same sin.
101 Posted 25/07/2008 at 13:31:56
102 Posted 25/07/2008 at 14:27:30
103 Posted 25/07/2008 at 20:05:50
The point being.. just like LCC, you're leaving everything far too late, even the EGM (which I hope to attend) is far too late. In fact, your total inaction beggars belief. If all parties eg LCC/Bestway/Keoic etc seriously thought the Loop was feasible they should have produced a report with all costs, timescales and funding plans and made it public! You could have asked supporters to help funding for the surveyors/builders/architects plans at a £10 each. and I tell ya, even I would have given a tenner, in fact I believe you could have got a minimum of £100k just from the No voters in the poll and a fair number of the Yes voters like myself would I?m sure have contributed.
It would have taken someone with the courage of their convictions to actually do something constructive and of a scale to make the club stand up and notice. But sadly, nothing but rhetoric, bluff, smoke and mirrors..
Oh yeah... as for the bullying, you?ve all seen it on the message boards and seen it outside the Wiinslow. I never said I?d been bullied coz I ain?t for being bullied... .Anyway girls n boys..if Kirkby fails, what will you do next?
104 Posted 26/07/2008 at 00:56:38
105 Posted 26/07/2008 at 01:14:28
Demanding that fans or whoever else should do the club’s work, yet ignoring the endless misinformation and zero tangible evidence that the club have exhausted all the options is a rather skewed angle to take don’t you think? Bestway commissioned a preliminary report by the world’s leading stadium designers, and where did that get them? LCC put the Kings Dock on a plate for just 10% of its full value, and where did that get them? If the main decision makers have no interest whatsoever in what you have to say how could any company justify spending anymore on a lost cause. This particular horse does not want to be led to the water, nevermind made to drink. The biggest club not to have attracted investment..... ask yourself why, and stop labelling decent blues who are mostly professional people as scallies as if it means anything as regards the real issues which you continually avoid.
106 Posted 27/07/2008 at 02:13:48
As for the scallies, my point is those at Preston were just endemic of NO voters in their actions, no co-ordination, hey, but at least they tried, not like you professionals who sat on your arses doing nothing before the vote because you all thought the majority would vote against and have done nothing of any consequence since.
And since when did being a?professional? exclude you from being a scally?... and the Kings Dock. It was offered to LFC first (what does that tell you)? and at the time the £30m or so may as well have been £300m.. it wasn?t long afterwards that we sold Rooney was it?! becaue we where skint..(still are aren?t we)? Investment, now what would you call getting a stadium built for you, land given to you, and transfer funds being released for you.. Tesco, Knowlsey MBC, Robert Earl, explain what their contribution is then if not an investment of some kind..
107 Posted 27/07/2008 at 06:58:56
I?m not being funny, but you?re getting this all back to front. KEIOC only existed for a few weeks before the vote, yet you expected them to produce full plans and costings when they are not stadium designers nor have the funding to produce the same. In anycase it is not their job to fully explore all the options, it?s part of what we pay a CEO and his staff for. Where are the feasibility studies, the costed appraisals for phased redevelopment carried out by several independent stadium design companies? They don?t exist! Even Tesco/KMBC/EFC with teams of people working on this couldn?t produce a costing at the time of the vote, despite having put in over a year and thousands of man-hours. The £78m figure didn?t appear officially till over 6 months after the vote. After doing a few sums, KEIOC had stated a similar ball park figure at the time of the vote, and were laughed at! As far as KD is concerned, your attempt to sweep it away is a weak one. As Arsenal?s chairman said at the time, to have let that opportunity vanish for the cost of just one good young player was criminal negligence. That stadium would now cost £4-600m
108 Posted 27/07/2008 at 15:49:58
Pleae don?t go on about the board, they made their decision but incredibly left it to us to either agree/disagree, and they spelt it out plainly enough, if we didn?t agree they?d pull out from Kirkby.
Kings Dock and Arsenal? Funny that, if it was the all end all of stadium deals, why didn?t Liverpool take it on! As they where asked first!..
Anyway..gotta go and get sunburnt. I?m taking my passpport as I?ll be passing through Kirkby checkpoint!!
109 Posted 28/07/2008 at 06:58:31
Apologies, I didn?t get a chance to finish due to a fire alarm. I?ll try to explain what you got back to front. It is/was the club?s responsibility above any other interested party to seek out all the options and fully evaluate the merits of each. That?s how any design/decision-making process is initiated. This could have taken the form of a tendering process or even a design competition whereby stadium designers and/or potential investors would have been given a brief along the lines of we can afford a debt of say £20-78m, what can be achieved at GP for this amount or any fraction thereoff? What can be achieved elsewhere with this as EFC?s contribution with a view to attracting investment via other enabling developments etc? This they would have coordinated with the planning office. This would have been normal practice but has not happened which means that at no point have the club been sufficiently informed to even approach such a major issue, nevermind implementing a vote. There are no planning applications nor requests for planning guidance regarding any site! In our case the old pal act of Leahy/Kenwright has produced ONE solution that enables Tesco to build their biggest store in the world while violating every piece of local and national planning legislation and without making ANY contribution to the stadium costs, and every effort since has been to try to make our problems fit their solution and to avoid any direct comparison with any other option. This by definition can only represent the complete opposite of our ideal objective (EFC-led)design process. In otherwords the club have not engaged in any process to seek the ideal solution for the club at all...... why should anyone else do it if they can?t be bothered to get the fundamentals right?
The Loop option was found by renowned Architect and Everton season ticket holder Trevor Skempton. He informed the club first, and requested to meet to discuss it despite being extremely busy while responsible for overseeing the whole Grosvenor project. The club simply didn?t want to know. He approached Bestway and LCC, and both were enthused by the prospect, but again the club still did not want to know..... Why should Bestway spend anymore on the issue when they were simply stonewalled as outlined by Malcolm Carter?s report? The club even went to the effort to employ Tesco?s experts to rubbish the Loop?s possibilities, and when HOK produced their report Wyness uttered the immortal words that EFC need a 75k capacity. Amazing how he hasn?t commented on Knowsley?s planning office insistance that Kirkby can never accommodate more than 50k. Why should LCC spend any more tax payers money on EFC to do what they should be doing for themselves? That?s why you have got it back to front. Ultimately it is no-one else?s responsibility to seek the best solution for EFC, but the club?s itself and they sinply haven?t even done the basics to achieve this. Other parties can help facilitate things such as planning etc, but if the club doesn?t want to know as indicated by exclusivity and being totally unreceptive to any suggestions or dialogue as is well documented, then why bother?
As far as Liverpool being offered KD first or whatever..... It?s highly contentious to start with, but completely irrelevant as regards the outcome. Ultimately, EFC were adjudged to have won a design competition to build on KD by LCC. LFC didn?t feel the site was big enough for their needs with 55k capacity..... seeing as they have over 3 million UK based fans you can see their point. Regardless, this stadium (HOK designed) was several levels above the basic off-the-shelf Barr effort, with greater capacity, greater flexibility and potential for increased revenue streams (concerts etc remember that in the Kirkby literature? another distant memory), greater accessibility with all city-centre high-capacity transport hubs nearby, local amenities galore, CBD for exec provision and iconic design in an iconic location...... all for just £30m. It could have been paid for by one or two year?s champion?s league payouts. A stadium many times the value of the Kirkby effort for a pittance. "Be all and end all".....? Pretty much I?d say! Certainly puts the deal of the century (you can have 4 stands for the price of 3) in its place, don?t you think?