As we all await the decision to call in Destination Kirkby, we are torn between waiting for David Moyes to sign his contract, new players to arrive as time runs out and the start of another season is upon us.. Trepidation has replaced optimism because of uncertainty on all fronts. Quietly spoken or shouted from the roof tops the message is clear, all is not well at Goodison Park. When the club needs direction and leadership we have to witness responses from our chairman of ?Don?t ask me, I?m only a fan like you?. If ever we needed a show of strength and conviction, of a determination to make Everton great again that was it. We didn?t get it. I doubt under the present regime we ever will.
Aside to this but more as a result of that lack of leadership do we find ourselves where we are today, looking for hope and direction. There are three main points I would like to cover when I sat down to write this
- The timing of any protest
- The need for leadership against the proposed move to Kirkby
- The need for a change of direction and management for our club
The Timing of any Protest
I feel the wake up call to many has come a little late. The jury is out and a verdict will be in before the forced EGM, before any protest on a match day. At which point any protest will be seen as merely symbolic should it be favourable to Kirkby. That should not be the way it is but it will be hard to stop irrespective of the truth, irrespective of deceit, but that should not be the end game.
Democracy was abused in giving a choice based on lies. Normally when that happens in politics we get four years of a crap government and then we throw them out because we realise we were lied to, realise the promises were never realistic or could never be honestly made. We learn from our mistakes and become a little cynical next time.
Trouble is, we don?t have a next time. We don?t have a second chance. We can?t go back if it really is a complete disaster. It?s a watershed moment.
Such moments in life you can count on one hand. Such moment in life determine the future, life and death, in our case its our club.
We were brought into a psuedo democratic vote that was merely a PR stunt but was used to dictate and justify the actions of people who are custodians of our club. They got what they wanted, we didn?t get what we were promised. Not quite end of story though is it?
You can?t say you have a mandate when you promise something but don?t deliver. Democracy would kick you out. Now in a real world the voters would chose at some point whether the board had delivered on their promises. But we won?t be afforded that luxury because that would be democracy wouldn?t it?
When the largest shareholder is the person responsible for the none delivery of what was promised means that any shareholder rebuke would be implausible, improbable but what a message it would send. Like wise supporters too can still send that message. We can still and should still protest in any lawful way we can
The need for leadership against the proposed move to Kirkby
Effective protest only comes about when people are led. If ever a cause needed a leader, this is one. Such a leader requires credibility and status and respect of the overall fan base, a past player of stature, someone who can open the doors where now they are closed. Imagine the leverage we could get on Sky if Andy Gray came out on tv and supported the no cause or stated that the club was being run badly. Just an example as I am not promoting him as a leader of any such but its all about influence. Who in our set of wonderful players does have the status and the balls to do it? Howard Kendall?
Who ever it is, speed is paramount, influence essential and leadership would rally and inform. Actually get the message across with a credibility that an internet forum can never have.
By default also, one could say we should be looking for leadership from the club too.
The need for a change of direction and management for our club
I passionately hope that the strength of opposition to not only the Stadium but also the Tesco regeneration plan will mean a call in from the Government. Its worth remembering that the key opposition from all the councils concerned is against Tesco and not the stadium and that opposition is based purely on vested economic interests.
To a great extent therefore our fate depends on an economic argument between relevant councils. The erection of a stadium is, in perspective, the icing on the cake so to speak.
In this respect our fate is somewhat out of our hands and always has been from the moment the yes vote gave the board its ?mandate? (no such thing was given but that?s how its now described)
Irrespective of any decision I leave my strongest condemnation for the management of the club. I make no apologies for the comments below for they are my opinion based on years of corporate business and as a passionate Everton supporter.
- Although they have been relatively successful on the pitch the club has been poorly run in a commercial sense It?s income from marketing / merchandising / outsourcing / corporate investment must rank with clubs in the championship not the premiership.
- Financially we have increased debt significantly based principally on expected future sales and not on an actual targeted Commercial revenue strategy.
- The use of an open ended exclusivity agreement to stifle any discussion or choice has been disgraceful. Any resemblance to a democratic process that was in the best interests for the club died the day that was signed.
- The quality of the leadership shown to date particularly by the CEO and by default the Chairman has been disgraceful. Decisions to threaten court action against protest of the clubs fans, the decision of late to promote a letter condemning the value of the club to its community on its own website. Unforgivable.
- I hope that should the decision for Kirkby to be called in it will put an end to this divisive chapter in our clubs history But that may only come as a result of an EGM in light of that proposed call in. I would hope to see tendered at such a gathering the resignation of the CEO and the search for a qualified and improved management team for all Marketing. Commercial and yes the lamentable Public Relations.
- The management of this club has manipulated the fan base, drove a stake right down the middle and let it fester when it could have incorporated them in the process. Instead they chose to give no information, no leadership and sought to condemn, restrain and ridicule those would protest.
- They chose to bring the fans into the stadium process, they gave the fans the perception of choice. They used that perception of choice as a means to their own ends despite the constant erosion of truth. They then slammed the door on the fans and any further participation in the process.
It?s a sad state of affairs when a club uses its own official website to promote a view that shows it in a very poor light and decries that its worth to the local community and therefore the city? is at best neutral and frankly more of a problem than its worth. Once again, Shame on You, Everton FC.
As a footnote to those who say, yes we have heard it all before, it does not make it any less true.
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1 Posted 24/07/2008 at 06:39:17
A good all round honest accurate summation of the matter.
As to the figure head from past and present players? well forget anyone still playing, or in any sort of Club / TV employment.
Men of such stature are few and far between, some potential candidates, are, alas, no longer with us.
Big Dunc, is the only one I can think of, maybe Howard Kendall., but who knows what their private opinion really is.
The white shirt Vs Blackburn seems the best way to make a maybe empty gesture.
But if it all has gone pear shaped by then, Men of Honour would resign, but, would Men of TRUE Honour have put us in this position in the first place.
I think not.
2 Posted 24/07/2008 at 07:43:20
3 Posted 24/07/2008 at 08:26:37
Despite the vote, despite the perceived mandate, I do believe - however naively - that much rests on the EGM. The club is no doubt planning to sail through it and seize any attempt to curtail proceedings as early as possible before the Scouse and pickled cabbage is served (or do they only reserve such finery for the AGMs?).
It is to be hoped that the shareholders formulate a cohesive plan of attack from the off with enough in-built momentum to keep the debate running until satisfactory and truthful answers are achieved for every pertinent question.
While previous AGMs I’ve attended (I’m not a stockholder but I have been invited in various capacities to attend) have been quite chaotic, I do suspect that the prompted nature of the event will ensure that the meeting doesn’t descend into mere formality.
This has to be a meeting that will truly go down in the annals of the club history.
To that extent, it’s worth reminding anyone who hasn’t yet done so that the hugely undemocratic "thumbs up" option on the club website is still in operation alongside the story announcing the EGM. All too often the one-way "thumbs-up" option has accompanied pro-Kirkby stories. This time it neatly works in favour of the No camp.
Small effect it may have but it’s worth noting that currently there are less than 650 people who have given their "thumbs-up" to the EGM story, whereas sadly over 1,000 have applauded Kilfoyle’s letter (although that story was given front page prominence).
Worth noting also that as you can only "vote" one-time only that there can be no question of distortion.
So to anyone who hasn’t yet "thumbs-upped" the EGM story then make sure you do (and link it to anyone you know). It’s the principle, more than anything.
4 Posted 24/07/2008 at 08:23:13
Merchandising: we now make guaranteed profits no matter how much is sold after years of losses.
Marketing: not such an obvious skill as you might think and can be extremely expensive. Would you prefer millions spend pushing Everton around the UK (where loyalties are already well entrenched) or pushing our brand into new markets - Asia, China, USA?
Kirkby: sentiment aside a fantastic opportunity at minimal cost. Exclusivity is a standard requirement for such a high investment collaboration.
Fans division: Really?? I believe all supporters will follow the teamafter the move just like every other team’s supporters have.
Lies: Most of these alleged lies come down to different perceptions, many willfully perceived by parties with vested interests.
Stadium quality: It would/will be twice the size of Goodison, and I would expect it to be built to limit cost to limit debt and maximise profit. Iconography has already been stated to be absent in the plans and it will be added.
Communication: I agree here that more communication would be better, but there is a major danger that the club will just get drawn into a slanging match - not really helping clarity.
5 Posted 24/07/2008 at 08:49:05
6 Posted 24/07/2008 at 08:36:37
The delay in GONW announcing their decision on DK has obviously created a vacuum which you seem determined to fill on your own. However long you spend analysing the situation and repeating YOUR VIEW of the situation, I guarantee that you will change nothing. The vast majority of Evertonians still support the scheme and whilst ToffeeWeb has become synonymous with the ?anti-vote?, it continues to be a minority view.
On a wider front, it has become fashionable to hold up Chairman Bill as a force for evil in exactly the same way that occurred with his predecessor. As someone said a long time ago ?a prophet in his own country.......' Make no mistake, Everton are in good hands and all the critical verbiage ? of which you are an master ? will change nothing.... unless, of course, you and your chums have a few hundred million to invest!
Keith Wyness will continue to steer the ship in the right direction, Davey will continue to exceed our expectations and the man whose foresight appointed them both will continue at the helm.
So please,just show a little restraint in your comments, have patience and soon you will see the grand plan emerge. You?ll also lead a happier life if you settle for a little positivity, too!
7 Posted 24/07/2008 at 08:44:11
Figureheads are easy to come by when you swim with the tide, to find a person of substance that would appeal to the different factions is far more difficult. HK (Mk 1) was a wonderful manager but I suspect his social habits would not give him the credibility required. I for one would only show respect to players from a bygone era - a Brian Labone type and not a thug like Ferguson as has been suggested. Stepping outside of the football arena the politicians have limited if any appeal, so if you are looking for someone of high profile and untainted by allegiance then perhaps McCartney is the answer, but what is his opinion?
Finally you make some valid points about the management of the club, or should I say poor management, but do you realistically think anyone will resign and ’fall on their sword’? Do you think that a minority shareholding is actually going to worry BK? I’m sorry but the only way things will change is if someone comes in and takes over lock, stock and barrel and then you can forget any idea of consultation, democracy or anything resembling a Peoples Club - Shinawatra (Sp) anyone !!!!!. You rightly point out that the political objections have nothing at all to do with the stadium, they are worried about any potential economic downturn and impact within their own constituencies of the shops, Everton are irrelevant to them. Equally I think you have a somewhat rose tinted view of how other clubs are run and that apart from us everyone is happy with the marketing and general management of their clubs. Living outside the city I have friends and colleagues that support City, Bolton, Blackburn, RS, Spurs, Utd and Chelsea and to a man (or woman) they are all pissed off with the management of their clubs. Are BK and Bully any better? I don’t know, but what I do know is that when you raise complaints about our Board in conversations with friends they all think I’m barking mad and should try theirs. We know what they say - the grass is not always greener!!
Despite these observations I still think you put forward a good article so thanks.
8 Posted 24/07/2008 at 09:33:22
9 Posted 24/07/2008 at 10:11:47
Putting it bluntly, if we don?t like it we withold our custom. Perhaps Christine could make a start on that by ceasing to harangue us at every opportunity!
10 Posted 24/07/2008 at 10:28:10
As someone above has said, it is a private company run by a board, yet because of this disgraceful vote, which as I have oft said, should never have occurred, and the fictional People's Club ideal, we mere fans think we have a right to say what decisions are made at board level........ We don?t.
We are fans that pay to watch a team play football, that is all we are to the board and all we will ever be unless we invest massively into the club.
If the board/Bill had the balls to come out and just say, "We?re moving" there would not be this split in the fans, yes the arguments would still be there but there would be no finger-pointing.
I have said it before Christine, you write well but you seem to believe that you have a right to have your queries answered by the board, unfortunately you don?t and neither do thousands of other disgruntled fans.
11 Posted 24/07/2008 at 10:13:33
The whole point is that Bill "I am not aware of any transport issues" Kenwright has no foresight whatsoever - the transport quote was at the ESCLA AGM and in reply to my question on Kirkby. He’s one of those people who just hope that everything will fall into place- the detail will somehow all take care of itself. Why do you think DK is on? Only because Leahy suggested it to Kenwright, who had had the foresight to do absolutely nothing regarding a ground move or improving Goodison. Of course, he grabbed the opportunity because otherwise he would have to think for himself and have some foresight.
He is a disaster, but because he is an Evertonian these things tend to be overlooked. We know he’s got the best interests of the club at heart, but this doesn’t override the fact that he is completely incompetent. He has already split the support into two and if DK goes ahead will take us past the point of no return.
Christine, another excellent article. You are right about needing some leadership against this move, it’s all a bit late though, someone like Joe Royle
12 Posted 24/07/2008 at 11:10:45
Simple advise:let the buggers get on with it and just turn up on matchdays and enjoy. Or not.
13 Posted 24/07/2008 at 11:11:28
Abusive post removed by moderator
14 Posted 24/07/2008 at 11:28:39
15 Posted 24/07/2008 at 11:27:04
A man of great integrity eh!
As for those on this thread who insist on comparing football clubs to traditional business ? and criticising those who think fans have a say ? I?m afraid it?s you who haven?t got a clue what you?re talking about. Football clubs are not comparable to a traditional business. They rely on a demographic for their business that doesn?t change it?s brand.
It?s not as if they can suddenly fill the terraces with new fans with an innovative marketing campaign ? the inability to understand this basic differentiation from the standard business model seems to be quite difficult for some on this thread... and quite frankly makes their criticism of others' "understanding of how the business world works" quite laughable.
16 Posted 24/07/2008 at 11:27:04
A man of great integrity eh!
As for those on this thread who insist on comparing football clubs to traditional business - and criticising those who think fans have a say -i’m afraid it’s you who haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about. Football clubs are not comparable to a traditional business. They rely on a demographic for their business that doesn’t change it’s brand -
It’s not as if they can suddenly fill the terraces with new fans with an innovative marketing campaign - the innability to understand this basic differentiation from the standard business model seems to be quite difficult for some on this thread...and quite frankly makes their criticism of others ’understanding of how the business world works’ - quite laughable.
17 Posted 24/07/2008 at 11:41:04
But in response to those who would patronise, ridicule and dismiss my "rants", I do have a happy life thank you and a successful one too. I happen to be proud to be an Evertonian and passionate about my club. I don?t have a boring life but if I bore you with the truth that's ok, stick your head back in the sand.
Drivel from this woman... sigh... The yes voters seem to have driven the message home that the vote was democratic and that democracy has won. My point was that you cannot cherry pick items of democracy for your own use as the club have done. Once you go down that track it's perfectly reasonable to assume that we have a continued say in where we go.
Line me up, put me against a wall, take the shot but it still won't change the facts. BTW I never called for big Dunc for leadership lol..
Tony Williams I don't expect that the board reply (I haven?t asked for one in this post so it's your assumption not mine). But do you honestly think we should all just shut up and believe in the board without question? So fans don?t matter?
I am not the only person with a view, but I take the time and the trouble to express it as best I can. If someone can state I am uttering a mistruth in anything I say feel free to say so. But all I have stated is based on events and truth not hearsay, not promises.
My view remains the same as it has always been, that although it may be a business it is run poorly as such. As fans we are tribal and the club to many of us is more than just a pastime. We have a vested interest in the future of the club.
I hope the decision comes sooner than later. I have abused no one in my posts personally, ever. I will continue to express those views until a decision is made. So if you feel like abusing, carry on. but you still can?t defend the defenceless.
18 Posted 24/07/2008 at 11:54:52
Bill?s realised that being the man who rescued the club from the previous regime that all the ?Good on ya Bill?s in the world don?t make up for the empty bank account and remortgaged house. Who?d have thought that running a football club cost money?!?!??!
The board are getting in to bed with Tesco to make people money and put money in their own accounts and not do what is best for Everton. The Everton which is the coaching staff, players, fans and the aspirations and dreams of those lucky enough to be of either group.
19 Posted 24/07/2008 at 12:00:27
20 Posted 24/07/2008 at 12:15:15
Make no mistake, Everton are in good hands.
Make no mistake, Everton are in good hands.
Make no mistake, Everton are in good hands.
Make no mistake, Everton are in good hands.
Make no mistake, Everton are in good hands.
I rest my case.
21 Posted 24/07/2008 at 12:20:51
Even better than the "Gettysburg address" but some people have no stomach for a fight and so seek to ridicule the message and the messenger without putting forward realistic alternatives.
For those who believe Kirkby will solve all our mismanagement of operations, poor marketing, poor PR and continuous operating losses as well as yielding an extra £10million a year for squad improvement, I say PROVE IT.
Although some people are right; football is different because if BK/KW were running a corporation they would have been forced to resign years ago due to constant lies and total mismanagement.
It is also true that Evertonians are apathetic probably due to too many years of living in the shadow of the RS.
Would the RS or the geordies put up with how our once great club is being run? No, of course they wouldn't, and as for Bill?s mouthpieces on here, they are either seriously deluded fools or are even more accustomed to accepting second best than the rest of us.
For me BK?s contribution to EFC is summed up in that infamous quote of his .... ?Don?t ask me, I?m only a fan like you?.
If that?s leadership for Doddy and Graham Atherton then I pity them.
22 Posted 24/07/2008 at 12:44:25
And you?d better start believing it ? Blue Bill is the Best!
23 Posted 24/07/2008 at 12:33:37
A lot of time is spent having a go at Kirkby, but how much time is spent looking at other options?? Nobody has any other solution, unless we convince some billionaire to take over our club, and even then everyone will moan our integrity as a club has gone. You want your cake and eat it, in today's world, that can't happen.
Either come up with an equal financial and practical ground move solution between the protestors, or shut up. It's that simple. Goodison is outdated. And if we wanted to stay and upgrade the ground, tell me this: how are we going to find a financial backer to just give us money with no benefits for them? Is that how business works? Of course it doesn?t. Tesco are offering us a financial package for Kirkby because they know it will also benefit them too.
And that's the only financial way Everton right now will have a new stadium.
24 Posted 24/07/2008 at 12:14:37
I also didnt hear anybody say ’we are getting the stadium for free’. What still keeps me slightly on the ’yes’ side, is that if Tesco’s dont put up the money, who else is going to? Regardless of the exclusivity deal, there is nothing stopping other people interested in EFC from publically declaring interest is there? So just who will fund a GP re-development, or alternative site? If there is answer’s to these questions, then I 100% agree that the management is to blame. But how can I blame the management based on what a few obviously educated people say on hear? Lets face facts, none of us on here know FUCK ALL. We are just making educated guesses.
But to hear the constant doom merchants and scare mongering is really making things worse. I remember a group of United fans who passionately and 100% believed their club was going to fall to bits when the Glazier family took over. They DID something about it, not just whine and moan. Protests at the Ground, internet groups, blah blah blah... they did the full monty. If you people really believe in what you are saying, then can I ask why the hell are you doing NOTHING while the club you apparently love is having the nails put in its coffin? As elegantly put as the original post is, when you sum it up its basically the opinion of someone who thinks they are a lot more important than they actually are. The type of people who believe man hasnt really been to the moon etc.
I enjoy reading articles like this, it really drives it home I am not as cynical and paranoid as I thought I was.
25 Posted 24/07/2008 at 12:52:19
Surely that should read "Blue Pill is the Best!!".
All this uncertainty is playing havoc with my lovelife :0)
26 Posted 24/07/2008 at 12:43:39
The leadersjhip must come from fans like you and I. We must do this ourselves, forget former players and local politicans, form your own fans group start the ball rolling.
Talk is cheap, action is now needed.
27 Posted 24/07/2008 at 12:50:32
I?m also happy that the price I pay for my football is as reasonable as anywhere in the country, that my club is on the verge of moving to a decent ground without breaking the bank to do so.
Oh, and I should have mentioned that I?m also proud that my club is the most successful outside the Sky 4 and impoverished or not has broken the club tranfer fee record in each of the last two seasons and is about to do so again.
Protest? What protest?You should all be bloody ashamed of yourselves-particulaly HER!
28 Posted 24/07/2008 at 12:55:45
They have already stated they will not be making any financial contribution to the stadium development so EFC will have to find over £130 million less the contribution from retail enabling development estimated by no less a person than KW at £52 million.
Experts in stadium development (unlike Tesco?s team)have already advised that GP could be redeveloped to a higher standard than Kirkby at a similar or lower cost.
29 Posted 24/07/2008 at 13:19:12
30 Posted 24/07/2008 at 13:30:02
Those of us who truly SUPPORT the Club rather than have the desire to run it (god help us all,I say!) need to be a lot more vocal.
Having said that,I must get on with some work before I lose another job for the cause!
31 Posted 24/07/2008 at 13:26:19
Which amounted to - appoint Dave and keep Dave!
What a guy!
You seem to revel in the fact that Bill has appointed Wyness to ?run the business?...what you failed to append to that sentence are the words ?into the ground?
I have to say, I never tire of the joke that Blue Bill doesn?t take a wage...You already stated that he appointed Wyness to ?run the business? [sic] and Moyes to run the team.....so what exactly should he take a wage for...grinning? having nice hair?
How about this.....whenever he eventually does the right thing and fucks off...take the amount of money he sells his stake for, subtract the 8 million he paid for it and divide the remainder by the number of years his tenure lasted...
Then you?ll figure out what wage he has really taken from this club ...and i?d bet now that it?ll be no less than 3 or 4 mill a year!
Some people should really screw their heads on in the mornings.
32 Posted 24/07/2008 at 13:11:47
You stated in a post near the top that the ’vast majority of Evertonians still support the scheme’. The fact is that the a majority have never supported the scheme.
36,000 voting forms were apparently sent out. 15,000 voted Yes. That’s almost 42%.
A ballot such as this should not have been conducted on a simple majority basis. Even the US Senate requires a 60/40 vote on major issues, and many organisations use the super-majority principle, where at least two thirds must vote in favour.
Furthermore on this ballot, which many claim was completely above board since it was run by the ERS, the votes were counted on a daily basis and the latest position relayed to the club. This enabled them to tailor the PR message accordingly, for example dragging out a letter from Terry Leahy when things were looking a little rough.
However, your subsequent view that the club is good hands under Mr Kenwright negates all other views expressed. You must be certifiably insane.
33 Posted 24/07/2008 at 13:32:53
Financially the club is on the brink of an absolute abyss (look at the accounts) and yet we are inviting another £70m+ debt .. all whilst selling off the family silver (e.g. Bellefield) and disappearing as a commercal brand / force in Liverpool through crazy outsourcing deals and a lack of any sort of commercial nouse! All this despite the recent success and a Premier League awash with money !.. Just think where the team would have been with some serious Investment (on a par with say Newcastle, Man City or Spurs) ... we would have won the PL title by now under Moyes!
34 Posted 24/07/2008 at 13:48:22
Now take the figure you have and add, say, £150.000.00 for every year that Bill has been here. Wouldn’t that figure be larger?
Or God forbid the arse goes out of Everton and we do a Leeds/Luton and Bill declares himself bankrupt, how has he taken a wage?
Don’t get me wrong Bill cannot offer our club any forward momentum due to his lack of cash but some things are true no matter how much we dislike the man.
35 Posted 24/07/2008 at 14:08:57
There are a few things for you to consider before you clain Kenwright takes nothing out of the club
1. The clubs debts mysteriously rose by £20 million in the year following his buyout of PJ for £20 million.
2. There are things called expenses which directors enjoy and some take more expenses than others!!
3. There is very little chance of Everton going bankrupt despite Kenwright's efforts (or lack of them) as there is so much money washing around in the Premier League these days.
36 Posted 24/07/2008 at 14:40:02
how do you go about PROVING the future?
what was wrong with the Rooney deal?
37 Posted 24/07/2008 at 14:41:19
Yes, £4.15 mill is bigger than £4 mill....is there a point to go along with this?
My point, which you seem to have missed - is that the suggestion that Bill is some kind of martyr for not taking a yearly salary hardly means he will not make an absolute mint out of this club....
You also miss my other point that from a purely practical angle he does fuck all to justify a wage...
38 Posted 24/07/2008 at 15:06:07
Leadership is what Christine is challenging the powers that be to show, not the incompetence and PR / spin disasters that creep from the pores of Ian Ross and Keith Wyness. Everything from the kit, to DK, to the transfers, to the handling of the AJ affair on the OS, the marketing, image, David Moyes's contract, JJB and Umbro, not to mention Kings Dock and the fictitious Mr Samuelson and the Fortress Sports Fund, Rooney, Trevor Birch... need I go on? All under the stewardship of Mr Kenwright, the ordinary fan who happens to own the Club as his very own trainset. Christine cares about Everton as do you but looks at thing?s as they are ? not through blue-tinted spectacles.
39 Posted 24/07/2008 at 15:11:40
Here are the accounts from 1999 (the year before Johnston sold up) to 2001 (the year after he sold up)
Can you substantiate your claim that the club debt rose £20 million in that time because I can’t.
1999 total debt to creditors approx £29 million
2001 total debt to creditors approx £32 million.
40 Posted 24/07/2008 at 14:34:57
41 Posted 24/07/2008 at 15:36:51
Jay; please be more careful about the claims you are making. We try to provide accurate information about Everton, rather than lies and spin. I do not appreciate you repeatedly posting statements that are false.
42 Posted 24/07/2008 at 15:32:17
"I?m a simple soul"
As for Richard Dodd - the man who TRULY supports the club - his ?just follow and do as you?re told? mantra would be wrong even if the club was being run competently by honourable men.
The fact that it is run by 100% PROVEN bullshitters suggests one of (ONLY!) two things.
1) Richard himself stands to benefit financially from DK.
2) Richard has been kicked in the skull by a horse..... every day for the past 10 years.
There are simply no other LOGICAL explanations for his "shut up and follow these proven dolts" guff.
43 Posted 24/07/2008 at 15:44:00
1. Johnson had given a personal guarantee to the bank for the club?s overdraft. When the bank wanted to call it in, he wanted out which would have put us in shit street. BK therefore bought him out.
2.Cheap and unfounded - try harder !
3.No worries then - we?re bombproof !
44 Posted 24/07/2008 at 15:43:57
45 Posted 24/07/2008 at 16:30:57
Ah fook it, alright then he is the Devil!
46 Posted 24/07/2008 at 17:06:53
Tell me what he does to deserve a wage?
47 Posted 24/07/2008 at 17:36:42
48 Posted 24/07/2008 at 19:08:25
49 Posted 24/07/2008 at 19:59:25
50 Posted 24/07/2008 at 21:06:24
Then beaten again Easter Saturday 0-3 at Carlisle with one of the most woeful performances of the era (a Boxing Day defeat at Wolves something like 0-3 around that time ranks up there with it for apallingness of display).
Even this 15-year-old knew the alarm bells were ringing on the way home. Six points dropped to a relegated side and Derby slipped in and took a title that was nailed on ours in the March/ early April.
Anyway, back to serious stuff. Looking at Doddy?s earlier contributions on this thread it would appear that the on-the-job training at his new employ includes assertiveness training. Watch out. Such a different tone when compared to his previous council job rantings, oh sorry I mean contributions.
Thought he had just ?developed? to abusing women (verbally Doddy, only verbally!, no need to threaten legal action) but then he goes and gets ?assertive? with EJ also (who I have always presumed to be a male, apologies in advance if this assumption is incorrect).
Oh, and I hope that your new employer provides you with a calculator or Excel adding facillity Doddy so that you can accurately work out percentages and determine majorities. Only minor detail but if you are going to shout.......
51 Posted 24/07/2008 at 22:00:11
52 Posted 24/07/2008 at 21:46:36
First of all, forgot to say in previous post ? whether you agree or not ? credit to Christine for such a well constructed and thought provoking submission.
Well go to start somewhere so let?s begin with some of G. Atherton?s thoughts. Let's start with merchandising and his half of the story comment. Absolutely correct that now under the current outsourcing agreement with JJB (why did we chose that particular company, mmm, hard one) we now make guaranted profits. Yes, agreed, but minimal guaranteed profits. Whilst if we had done the job properly ourselves in the first place, or even now, the potential is there to multiply this figure further. Even on a bad day the most we can lose is the minimal £1M profit poduced by JJB. What do we stand to gain if done properly? Exactly!
Kirkby ? he introduced the topic, not me ? ?minimal cost?. Well, minimal is what I would consider my bank account. Latest reported figure is £58m and guaranteed to rise due to external conditions. Is that minimal? Because minimal is what the corporate machine said in it?s pre-vote persuasion literature.
I think that HSBC and I are one in wishing that my bank account was Bill and Keith?s version of minimal.
And as for Liam Young earlier today and his ?other options??? contribution. Go and get hold of Oxford English?s finest and look up the meaning of exclusivity -spelt E-X-C-L-U-S-I-V-I-T-Y in case you are not sure.
I would have to agree that our alternatives are bare, but ?shut up?. No thanks, not on the tissue of false promises that have emanated from those in charge of this particular institution. You get taken for a ride if you want, but don?t expect other people to be led as meekly as lambs to the slaughter.
If that?s what you do in your own life, go blindly with no standards, fine if it works for you, but don?t castigate others for not going along with your viewpoints on the back of falsehoods, because Sir, that is truly poisonous and the road to ruin for us all.
53 Posted 24/07/2008 at 22:14:21
if you remember I actually provided you with the proof that this was the case with an auditor's report on the accounts.
I will dig it out when I get time and maybe then you?ll start to believe.
And actually the £10 million a year losses are extracted from the shareholders finacial analysis requesting the EGM because they are so unhappy with the way the club is being run.
Again I will post the evidence and hope that you will then retract your questioning of my integrity.
54 Posted 24/07/2008 at 23:32:10
So I expect to be critisized for the gaps in my knowledge or the way I put it across. Fair enough, I think honest debate should come from people expressing their views
But what I can?t for the life of me understand is how anyone can still have the brass neck to state that the club is run well commercially, that we should get behind the board and its decisions etc..
In any business a leader has a sell by date, the time when his / her skills are not the ones required to take a company forward. No matter what their past achievements to go forward to the next stage it is almost always the way.
I think it was Phil McNulty who said in a blog (forgive me if I don't get it exactly right) that sentiment is no longer a currency used in the Premier League. Bill plays the sentimental card for all its worth when ever he can and he himself knows he needs to find someone else to lead the club forward.
Fact, not my opinion. For all the good he has done for the club, which is immense I might add the fact remains he has undone all of it with many of the decisions he has presided over or indeed made.
To me, Kirkby is one step too far for trust to be given considering the track record and statements made by himself and his second in command.
Whatever happens with Kirkby I think BK will come out of it all very well financially. At the same time the risk to the club is immense.
Even when the decision on Kirkby is handed down, Yes or No, there are important decisions to still be made. Direction still to be taken and minimisation of risk to be assessed.
That's why we need leadership, direction. So we can enjoy the game on the field and not the games off it.
55 Posted 25/07/2008 at 00:19:54
Your amazement at what I will call The Dodd Position (one of infinite childlike trust and belief in our club's custodians) makes the mistake of many of our more vocal contributors, who cannot make the personal transference into the mind of another and therefore cannot concieve of the mindset with which they process the same information as you but reach the opposite conclusion. I'm not saying I understand how they do it, but having seem plenty of religious nuts in my time, the ability of people to convince themselves of their own version of The Truth and to stedfastly ignore or discount all contrary indications (and with BK they are legion) doesn't actually surprise me anymore. For them, it's an article of faith.
In a way it's been a disappointing aspect of opening up these pages to a greater breadth of opinions... only to find that so many are locked in and unprepared to change their positions based on new infromation that others may share with them.
Would you actually get anywhere with Doddy, though, if you were to sit him in a corner and have him address the numerous examples of lies and decit perpetrated by the custodians? Sadly I think you would be wasting your time.... which brings me back neatly to your crusade, Christine.
You write as if your knowledge and wisdom will spread enlightenement and change minds, and as a result, you are a little bit pissy when challenged. I would say look at the other threads, look at the tens of thousands of comments on here. How often does someone say, "Hmmm.. you know, I think you are right. I never looked at it that way before." ...
It never happens!
56 Posted 25/07/2008 at 02:05:49
I am passionate too and yes sometimes passion clouds good judgement (for or against an arguement) Surprisingly (to me anyway) there have been moments when for instance Neil Peirse would make comments that I agrred whole heartedly with or understand why others would take the more segmented view that its all to difficult.
Which brings me back to the point of your post, re my crusade as you put it. You have inferred by the comments that I am essentially wasting my breath trying to convince those who do not see the world as I do. Your right. I am tired of trying! So I will stop.
Thank god for that I hear many Yes voters shout. Made my point, you have made yours time to move on.
Suffice to say it WILL be my last article on the management of the club and Kirkby. But many thanks to all of those contributors both for and against who have added to the debate and clarrified the thinking of so many of us.
Thank you :-)
57 Posted 25/07/2008 at 02:59:38
I was very disappointed that you chose to question my integrity earlier on a couple of items of information I have been posting.
FYI here is an analysis of EFC’s last years (2007) accounts together with the previous 3 years:
Year Turnover Profit/Loss
2005/06 58.123 -10.794
2004/05 59.953 23.509
2003/04 44.302 -15.376
2002/03 46.781 -12.980
I hope now you can clearly see that we did in fact make a 10 Million plus loss last year and the previous year is distorted by the Rooney money coming in.
An apology on that score is surely now due and as for the debt rise following BK’s takeover I will search out the article and post tomorrow following which I would expect a complete retraction of your comments about me.
Thanking you in anticipation,Jay
58 Posted 25/07/2008 at 04:02:38
As promised and after much sleepless investigation here is the extract from the article which I refer to:-
A review of Everton?s 2000-01 Accounts
by Paul Holmes
"what are the salient points when trying to unravel what can be quite a complex set of figures.
I am well versed to perusing such documents primarily for potential investment purposes and in compiling business plans for my own purposes.
It should also be noted that I did consult with a friend, a former accountant of Pannel Kerr Forster (he is now a venture capital fund manager) when providing these opinions. Having assisted in the preparations of Liverpool FC?s complex accounts, he was rather used to seeing a different magnitude of figures!!
>Much has been made of EFC apparently reducing their loss from £11M in the year 2000 to a more creditable £3M in 2001. This achievement was underpinned by the following alarming statistic:
? In 2000, EFC made a loss on selling players of (£915k) and therefore subsequently posted a loss of nearly £11M.
? In 2001, the profit on player sales was nearly £11mil.
When taking these figures into consideration, it becomes apparent that the financial loss would have been significantly higher than the previous year without these player disposals. In fact, if the loss on player sales had been similar to the year before, EFC would have approached a staggering £13M loss for the year!!! The overdraft would be correspondingly bigger... or worse, the club would have gone bankrupt.
Similarly, the overall debt of £29M does not take into consideration the transfers of Messrs Jeffers, Ball and Radzinski (which occurred after May 31, 2001). These three transactions should bring the overall current debt figure down to nearer £20M ? barring any "devil in the detail" of the bargains entered into.
And there is one overall convenient and perpetual myth that should be smashed: this is peddled lately by no less a figure than a former glorious centre forward now on the company?s payroll. It is that any financial fault lies with the previous administration. These figures, after two years of Kenwright?s TBH in control, are clearly the direct responsibility of the present regime.
One important point is that the debt (one year on) has increased from £15M to £29M during their time. How can this have any bearing on the previous regime? Particularly when the present regime would have had every opportunity to undertake the due diligence with which they appear to approach other matters with such regularity?"
Following this research I would like to point out that if you look at the accounts Graham has referred to you will note an increase in borrowings to £27 million in the 2001 accounts and a rise in creditors from £20 to £30 miilion.
Amounts due to creditors are only one item in the accounts and as we all know figures can be manipulated to show different pictures.
For example if you look at the intangible assets they have been increased from £13 to £25 million.
You will also note as a post balance sheet item in the ?99 accounts profit on player sales of £5 million were not included and therefore went into Bill?s first year accounts.
My own view has always been that the waters have been very muddied but I am firmly of the belief (and I am not on my own on this) that BK paid PJ out of Everton's accounts and not his own money.
This "Theory" also stands up because the man only had a million pound property to his name when he took over EFC.
59 Posted 25/07/2008 at 04:45:05
So when he says the debt increased by £14M, you interpret that to mean it represnts the £20M BK paid for the club? Sorry if I?m being just a tad obtuse... but that just doesn?t add up... does it? And just because that?s what you believe, it hardly adds up to "proof"... Does it?
You?ll have to do a lot better than that, methinks, Jay.
Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong but the loss for the four years you quote in an earlier post is not "£10M a year" but it in fact averages just £3.9M a year. And you even chose the years yourself! I will understand, however, if you are not yet willing to apolgise for these unsubstantiated claims you keep making.
You talk about muddied waters... I think trying to make head or tail of what may well be highly manipulated numbers is a risky proposition at best.
60 Posted 25/07/2008 at 08:02:35
Looking at figures for debt/profit at the end of the document you make the usual mistake of including amortisation for players - a regular figure of around £10 million.
Amortisation is an accounting requirement to include depreciation of assets. For a capital asset such as a car for example it reflects the amount you have to spend to replace that asset. Players are quite different and can be sold for more than they cost - making a nonsense of the practice. It is a requirement so it has to go in - those ’debts’ are paper debts.
We do of course have true debts and those are found under the creditors heading.
61 Posted 25/07/2008 at 06:10:05
you are being even more mischievous now.
You seek to discredit one of your previous writers and business analyst to put down my contention.
I have never said I have proof that Kenwright used EFC to buy out PJ I have always said it is my opinion.
Also I clearly pointed out that the Rooney money covered the non loss making year and adding the latest 2006/7 figures from the recent EGM document shows 9.4million losses then.
I never ever said operating losses averaged 10 million a year under Kenwright.
Although for the last 2 years 10 million a year is pretty consistent and continuous.
62 Posted 25/07/2008 at 20:33:40
63 Posted 25/07/2008 at 22:26:08
Just think.. if you?d actually got off your arses and produced a campaign against the proposal, you may well have got a vote in your favour! But you didn?t did you... and as for the slinging of insults (of which I?ve had a few and given a few) your invective should be aimed at the abstainers ? both Yes & No voters at least made a decision!
64 Posted 26/07/2008 at 00:14:19
What I can't understand, well I can if you have a personal financial incentive, is you and people of the same ilk just keep repeating the same boring responses to any proposals that anyone outside your own way of thinking puts forward.
If you feel you need to respond to an article you don't agree with, give an alternative view, don't just take the easy option and call them a commy or miltant, which is what a lot of the pro-Kirkby people who come on this site do.
By the way, commy or militant is a comparison. Pro-Kirkby people come on complaining that the site is anti-Kirkby, it's not the site that's anti-Kirkby, it's the EVERTONIANS who come on who are ant-Kirkby.
And it's not because people don't like Kirkby, it's because we don't want to leave our city. There's no logic to it. Except that Kenwright is fucked, he has lied from the minute he took over from Johnson. His actions speak louder than the shite that comes out of his mouth...
I could go on forever about the lies and fraudulent statements hes made over the years, but the guy even had me going for a while. When I say Kenwright is fucked, I mean he has sold all the family silver to cover up his inept way of running the club. In fact I would say he has raped the club. His only escape is Kirkby and it's not for the clubs benefit or the people who really matter ? it's purely for HIMSELF.
65 Posted 26/07/2008 at 07:14:13
I for one, think that your posts are very interesting and thought provoking and I hope that you do not cease from submitting any further posts.
And I agree with you 100%.
66 Posted 26/07/2008 at 10:09:59
Keep ?em coming Christine and don?t let the doubters put you off.