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Healing the rift

By Richard  Tansey :  26/07/2008 :  Comments (72) :
Next week promises to be one of the most critical in Everton Football Club`s recent history.

On Monday we should know the result of the Government`s consideration of the plan to move to Kirkby. Maybe, just maybe, we may also learn that our manager as agreed to `do a Neville`and stay with us for another few years... But, whichever way the DK verdict goes, it bothers me to think that Everton will remain a club whose supporters are at each other`s throats.

True, ~60% were prepared to back the move but many of them are now saying they were deceived. Of the No voters, a considerable proportion are so alienated by the Club`s dismissive attitude that they vow never to set foot in the proposed new home. So parlarised are present standpoints that, whichever way the verdict goes, some fellow Evertonians will now be regarded with disdain.

Now the management of this great club has NEVER made much effort to keep their fans `onside`. Even in the glory days of the Moores empire, most of us felt we were only a necessary evil so it will be a daunting task facing this far less capable administration to bring us back together. PR spin won't do it, appointing more puppet spokesmen like our ex-centre forward will have no effect and I even suspect that Davey announcing he`s staying will be taken as indicating he`s `one of them` ? whichever side have their way!

So it has to come from us. Only we, the paying public, who view ourselves as the backbone of the Club ? the very spirit of its existence ? can heal the rift which in so many misguided ways the Chairman and his lieutenants have brought upon us. WE have to begin the reconcilliation process if there is to be a future for our club be it at Kirkby, Goodison or somewhere else.

So, in the same manner that some religions `share the peace`, let`s all make a point of shaking our neighbours` hand at the Blackburn game and thus get on with the job of supporting the greatest team in the land!

Reader Comments

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Gavin Ramejkis
1   Posted 26/07/2008 at 16:11:35

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My "neighbours" in the Park End are all "No?s" and I never break bread with my enemies.

Vile and disgusting comments removed by moderator

Peter Singleton
2   Posted 26/07/2008 at 16:22:11

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I dont think there’s a major rift in the fanbase, I was at the match the other night and there was a handful doing anti-Kirkby chants but it was just that...a handful. Far more noise was made by far more fans singing and chanting about everything else under the sun.
Ed Fitzgerald
3   Posted 26/07/2008 at 16:37:54

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I think more than handful won?t go to Kirkby. Are you assuming that people's reluctance to join in chant as a barometer of whether people will go to DK?
Vic Webster
4   Posted 26/07/2008 at 16:33:18

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To Gavin Ramejkis.
I take it from your comments that you are a "no" voter. I respect your choice in this matter.
However there is no need to be so hateful and vulgar in your comments. This site can well do without rubbish like that. You may well feel that the "powers" that run the club are making all the wrong decisions but true Everton supporters can express their views without being so distateful with words. In fact I will go so far as to state that true supporters are better off without people that spout vile like you on supporters web sites.

Well said, VIc: Gavin's digusting comments have been removed by the Editor

Steve Taylor
5   Posted 26/07/2008 at 16:44:44

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Gavin - you say you "never break bread with your enemies" - wtf? Are you saying that any Blue who doesn’t share your view on DK is your "enemy"? or have I mis-understood?

Simon Hughes
6   Posted 26/07/2008 at 16:44:22

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We need to bury the myth that 60 per cent of fans voted for this disaster. It was only 40 per cent of those eligible to vote. God knows who they all were, but I suspect many were Evertonia members.
Tim Anderson
7   Posted 26/07/2008 at 16:53:41

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Oh yes, Simon OK - and lets remember too only 28% of eligible voters voted against the move despite LCC/KEIOC dangling locations like the loop before us and saying it was a deliverable option - if the site could magically be made a helluva lot bigger and an Abromovich took us over LOL!!!
Andy Willox
8   Posted 26/07/2008 at 17:00:15

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Tim, if you go back through the timescale of events leading up to, during, and after the vote, I think you will find your last comment will make a horse's arse out of you.;)
Peter Singleton
9   Posted 26/07/2008 at 16:59:40

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Ed, in my opinion only 100-200 will not come with the club to Kirkby, to most blues its only four miles away not Tuvalu! As to the chanting, well put it this way - if the fans had chanted en masse for the full game only anti-Kirkby chants/songs you would be made-up and seen it as clear evidence the fans had turned against the move, the fact only a handful chanted anti-Kirkby stuff and were ignored by most other normal Evertonians says a lot in my opinion. The fact other songs and chants were done with a lot more gusto and by a lot more fans tells me everything too.
Alan Cummings
10   Posted 26/07/2008 at 17:09:32

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I know I read somewhere that when Bolton moved to the Reebok,they estimated that they lost about 3% of their traditional support.If that were replicated here it would mean about 1000 wouldn?t go. I guess the club would expect to get many more than this in ?new? followers so would probably regard it as good business.

Whether we move or not, I do hope that the two sides can see a way to reconcile their differences, That Gavin bloke frightens me to death!

Mike Byrne
11   Posted 26/07/2008 at 17:06:52

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Peter Singleton - it is not the fact that Kirkby is 5 miles away that is the issue. It is because:
  1. You will not be able to park within two and half miles of the ground
  2. The train is a one-line station capable of handling no more than 4500 people an hour and is 1½ miles from DK
  3. There aren?t enough buses to take people to the ground (but hey that's OK cos there are bicycle places there!)
  4. We were promised a world class stadium ? we are getting a mid-range quality
  5. We were told that non-football events would generate significant extra revenue ? there can be none of these cos the council won?t allow it so no additional revenue
  6. We were told it was effectively free of charge ? we now know that it is going to cost at least £78m of additional debt and that dosn?t include all the fitting out costs (but thats OK too cos the extra fans will cover this debt - err rwhere from? - it?s hardly prime football fan territory there esp EFC fan.)
But once we get to out mid-range debt laden new half-empty stadium all will be fine cos we can meet up with our mates over a pint and set the world right. Think again - there are only about three pubs in the area but thats Ok cos all retail parks have burger vans and McDonalds. Strawberry milkshake 'n fries with that?

So please someone anyone tell me what the positives are about Kirkby cos I am struggling to find one that will be long term. The match-day experience as most us know it will be destoyed, huge swathes of people will not fancy waiting two or three hours for public transport, lot's of people will not be up to walking the 2½ miles there and 2½ miles back and lots more simply won?t do it on a cold wet winters night.

But hey thats all OK cos Billy Bullshitter and Keth Lieness will be snug in their Director?s Lounge with their big cars parked outside watching us poor dickheads queing up for a milkshake or a bus in two hours time.

And one final thing Peter Singleton - there may have only been a few anti-Kirkby songs but I have yet to hear one pro-Kirkby chant!!! We have been lied to and betrayed by the people who we look to to run our Club the way we want ? the fact that they aren?t breaks my heart and it saddens me to say they are killing our Club.

And I take no pleasure at all in saying that..
Ray Roche
12   Posted 26/07/2008 at 17:08:33

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IF we end up in Kirkby then I, for one, will not renew my season ticket, at least not to start with. I?ll still go, just to see what it?s like, but if my fears regarding transport, parking, park and bloody ride etc., are proved right then I shall pick the games I go to and not hand over a dollop of cash for BK/KW to squander.

If you think I?d bother driving 96 miles (I now live in Wales) on a cold wet February night to watch Middlesborough and then have nowhere to park, or have to walk for "90 minutes" after handing over a King's ransom to some effin jobsworth carpark attendant, as has been suggested, then you?re havin? a laugh. I?m not going to get on me bike either...

It?s not as if I?m a fairweather fan ? I?ve been going to GP since 1959, week-in, wee-out, from the great sides of the 60s to the shite of the 90s, but this may be a bridge too far.

I feel as if we fans have been shafted by BK/KW and tricked into accepting a rigged ballot. Not rigged as in a dodgy ballot count as Mugabe would do, but rigged as in voting for something completely different to what we will end up with.

BK/KW should be careful.... a good mate of mine has been following Everton, home and away, for decades. Through unfortunate circumstances he can no longer attend weekend games because he has his daughter then and rightly chooses to spend his time with her. However much he missed Everton to start with, he sees that there IS a world without going to GP at the weekend and could well be lost to Everton, as a paying fan, for all time.

How many of us know someone who "used to go every week" until kids and the accompanying shortage of cash stopped them? Once they?d stopped, they didn?t start going again but remained Evertonians in name only. I?ve played golf with two today. "Always went the game but don?t bother now... prefer to play golf and watch ?em on the box" .

I fear Kirkby will result in thousands like them,after all, we have the biggest "walk up" fanbase in the Prem. And it?s a longish walk to Kirkby for some people....

Andy Willox
13   Posted 26/07/2008 at 18:16:15

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P Singleton, your estimate of 100-200 lost supporters is actually 9,900 shy of fatpants' own estimates, though he does expect to pick up new erm, 'evertonians' (small ?e?) from the Liverpool-Manchester corridor, this despite competition from the existing rugby teams (both disciplines I believe), Man Utd, Liverpool, Stockport, Bolton, City, etc etc.

Unfortunately if DK goes ahead it will create 'Nu everton' and my Everton FC will have been killed, so I wouldn?t attend for a great big clock matey.

Ed Fitzgerald
14   Posted 26/07/2008 at 18:27:03

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Your logic is a little flawed to say the least. It is not the most erudite of theories is it?
You are assuming (are you?) that there is a direct correlation between the number of people who chant Anti-Kirkby songs at a friendly game and the number of people who will not renew season tickets if/when we move to Kirkby. Are you inferring that there is causal link between chanting (and numbers of people who chant) who modify their behaviour in light of the chant if so please explain the following

? Why during a particularly good cup run (remember them) with those thousands of blues singing at their top of their voices - has no one?s mother (I am happy to be proved wrong, although for it to count it obviously exclude finals) put the champagne on ice for the victorious supporters return ? well maybe Bill Kenwright?s mum did?

? Another chanting behavioural mystery has anyone seen Kopites thrown one by one or by any other number thrown into the Royal Blue? Mersey

Peter I am sorry to tease you but you are talking out of your arse. If you are blessed with some form of Para-psychological skills that gives you insights into the future spending of people based on chanting behaviour at football matches, give up the day job Pete and become a millionaire.

If the club took its approach to this (impact of Kirkby upon supporter?s behaviour i.e. -buying season tickets) seriously they should have carried out a proper statistical analysis of an appropriate sample of season ticket holders. In fact as a business I would have thought this was a must given the potential loss of revenue. Perhaps they are not arsed or complacent or did not think like a business and assumed that customer loyalty could be taken for granted. Or perhaps they have in which case I would love to have a look at the data and the methods they applied.

Finally Peter It gives me no pleasure to hear Evertonians chants berating the club, which is why I have never created a chant for the following: Neville, Hibbert, and many others!

Colin Malam
15   Posted 26/07/2008 at 19:22:14

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Just read some of these posts and you will begin to understand what Richard Tansey was refering to when he launched this thread. We?re at each others throats, for chrisake, and that sure ain?t healthy! If I?ve got a grouse, it?s about the pricks at the helm ? not my fellow Evertonians. Peace, brothers, peace!!
Adam Cunliffe
16   Posted 26/07/2008 at 19:26:54

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I'm sorry but this stadium issue is really peeing me off. The sooner it gets called in the better in my opinion; however, some Evertonians (Yes, Evertonians not sheep or idiots) don?t agree. From the begining of Destination Kirkby, the whole fan base has been split which has only been bad news for Everton. I haven?t seen Gavin's comments because it has already been removed but I can only imagine what it wasand it?s the kind of bullshit that give the No camp a bad name.

I hate to see everyone arguing on ToffeeWeb as that is not it?s purpose. It?s purpose is to inform us all about everything Everton and it does a bloody good job. It shouldn?t be used as a battle ground for all Evertonians old or young.

Call me naive but this whole saga isn?t Everton and we are a laughing stock to the shower across the park. I don?t care what the red shites say but I do care about what Evertonians say so can we try and stop the insults please.

We are Evertonians no matter what our stance is on the proposed move so let's start acting like adults and debate properly.

Sheesh and I thought us teenagers were supposed to be the immature ones.

Ed Fitzgerald
17   Posted 26/07/2008 at 19:44:55

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When people state stupid things like because a handful of people chant something at a match they can make predictions about how many people will jib DK, they have to be challenged. Or because they follow Everton do we have to validate things that are patently bloody stupid?
Gavin Ramejkis
18   Posted 26/07/2008 at 19:51:03

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My removed text was a personal attack on what I would or wouldn’t do to some people’s beloved BK and KW - and the break bread with your enemies is my personal morale code, I’m no hypocritical knob who would smile like some idiot and sit down with a snake. I stand by my comment but understand why it was removed as it breaches the conditions of use so Adam it was not the kind of terms that give the No camp a bad name merely my personal feelings towards the useless liar Chairman of the club and his employed thief of a CEO.
Adam Cunliffe
19   Posted 26/07/2008 at 20:54:13

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Ed, What the fans were singing at Preston was up to them, it was your choice if you wanted to join in or not. The chant "Were not going to Kirkby" is not offensive its just the opinions of those who sing it.

Also Gavin, apologies it just seemed that when it said vile and disgusting comment I presumed it was an attack on Yes voters. Still, no need to be vile and disgusting towards anyone.
Jay Harris
20   Posted 26/07/2008 at 21:00:27

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Gavin although I wouldnt use the same terms you have my 100% backing for the sentiment.

I think a lot of the emotion comes because some people still believe the sun shines out of Bill?s arse and given all that is in front of us I, like you, find that hard to swallow.

I also think we need some form of action before the 2 clowns running the club (or not as the case may be) take EFC to a point of no return.
Michael Kenrick
21   Posted 26/07/2008 at 21:11:47

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Jay, what action are you going to take? I?m curious.

Are you a Shareholder? Shareholders may have a valid gripe (although probably difficult to prove in terms of financial loss) and at least a theoretical means of taking action. Beyond that... what? The kind of action campaign that got Agent Johnson out? The huge irony of course being that there needed to be a willing purchaser... who was none other than Bill (Black or Blue) himself.

I?m not a fan of BK by any means but you, Gavin, Jay Campbell and the other Bill-haters ? what are you actually gonna do?
Ed Fitzgerald
22   Posted 26/07/2008 at 21:16:24

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Read my response to the original statement to Peter. I don’t care if they chant it or not, the point I am making is that you can’t predict who won’t go to Kirkby on this basis?

That was the line of argument!! Read the thread
Adam Cunliffe
23   Posted 26/07/2008 at 21:30:23

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Your right we can’t predict the amount of people who will and won’t go to Kirkby and I do think that people who say they won’t be going may end up going just like the rest of us.I know I will, will you?

The point I was making in my original post was that we should not be getting at each others throats over the ground move.We should be doing what we’re doing and be debating not arguing.

Also regarding your original post Kopites have never been thrown in the Mersey but it would be nice if a few were.

Finally, they may of been people who werent at Preston who won’t be going to Kirkby so it’s not an accurate way to gauge wether it will be successful in regards to the fan base.
Ed Fitzgerald
24   Posted 26/07/2008 at 21:21:12

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As you rightly state there is little direct action non-shareholders can take other than
? Sign on-line petitions etc ? the official ones
? Send e-mails to the politicians involved
? Err try and get Anti-Kirkby banner into the ground
? Charter a plane and fly over Goodison
? Wear White at the Blackburn game?
? Start a few chants
I have only done the top two so far!
Having said that a group of shareholders are trying to do something via the EGM aren?t they so finding a way for supporters to register their protest is legitimate.
I don?t think Jay is advocating anything particularly guerrilla like such as kidnap, vandalism perhaps something more in line with some of the recent suggestions about some form of visual approach with maybe some more media savvy strategies. It is an emotional issue and people such as Gavin and Jay are in my opinion rightly worn out by Kenwright?s mendacity and double speak. If you are no fan of Kenwright and the regime which he leads yourself perhaps the question could have been re-phrased to read ?what we are we going to do??
The editorial team at Toffeeweb could market some form of non violent protest (such as the white shirt idea, I am sure there are more original ideas out there) or do the team at Toffee Web see their position as essentially neutral and therefore unable to support such an idea?
Steve Pugh
25   Posted 26/07/2008 at 21:58:35

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I have a question for any Evertonians who are seriously considering not going to see the team play if we go to Kirby.

If we go to Kirby and then the club is taken over and a new controlling structure is put in place will you reconsider?

You see I only have 1 problem with Kirby itself, and that’s the parking. As I travel from Norfolk to watch our homegames distance isn’t a problem for me, although I can see it being a real problem for the walk up fan base.

Quality of stadium can be improved at a later date, albeit at a price, so that isn’t a reason in itself.

In fact my only other problem with the whole thing is the way that we have been lied to from day one, the way we have been treated as idiots by the people running our club. At the moment I am not buying a season ticket, but if they sort out the parking and get in new bosses, I will reconsider.

Am I alone in feeling this way?
Dean Williamson
26   Posted 27/07/2008 at 00:45:55

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Once it is declared that the Kirkby shambles will not be called in then the last game at Goodison is my last game as an Evertonian. 23 years of support will be withdrawn. Good luck to the imposters of Kirbky but it wont matter as my team will no longer exist. The facts are there for all to see. I’m not arguing anymore. I dont need to. My mind is made up. Yes voters wont miss me but I have made my peace. Football is not everything. I feel I have to make a stand and I feel comfortable in my choice.
Christine Foster
27   Posted 27/07/2008 at 01:08:15

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The rift in the fanbase can only be attributed to the way accurate information has been communicated to the fans. Or should I say, inaccurate information.

I can understand those who believe that because we have done well on the pitch then all must be well behind as well. I can understand those who ask the question Why are we so vindictive to the management of this club when we are doing well?

We have done well with David Moyes, he has continued to pull rabbits out of hats and we continued to punch above our weight according to many commentators and media.

But it is the foundations that are crumbling and I don’t mean Goodison Park. Decisions are being made that frankly don;t add up.

Its not a conspiracy theory, Moyes hasn’t signed. Why? AJ is obviously already gone but the club persist (as they did with Rooney) that he won’t or isn’t. Nothing seems to be happening on the transfer front.

I personally think that some of the youngsters will do well this year but the backbone of our squad is now very brittle. It needs quality.

To heal the rift? Lets hear from the club about our concerns. Because the ONLY way it will be healed is for the CLUB to make the effort.

Now I am really trying not to be the cynic but its never going to happen because of too much vested interest.

The only realistic way forward will be a decision on our future. One way or the other. It will stop the debate but never heal the rift. That might take a few years to say the least.

But then who cares? Not those who think they know best. I doubt my personal anger for the way we have been treated as fans will not be abated by sitting in a souless half empty stadium watching kids run their heart out for EFC.
Barry Hartley
28   Posted 27/07/2008 at 01:48:39

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I think the ’rift’ is greatly exaggerated to be honest, I only missed 6 matches home and away last season and I can honestly say I barely heard a chant all season long against the move, when discussing things in the pub 99% of talk is about on the pitch stuff and politics, other sports, tv etc. Come onto Toffeeweb and its the reverse- all about Kirkby! But its the same few people obsessing about it all the time. There’s no major ’rift’ at all. Peter is spot on.
Gavin Ramejkis
29   Posted 27/07/2008 at 08:11:33

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Barry I too attend all home games but due to work commitments was over 250 miles away for the Preston game so couldn?t attend. Rest assured in the Park End there are discussions about Kirkby at every home game, tied to funding for players and the game itself which are becoming more and more consequential. The rift may not feel as much to you but it most certainly is where I sit. The apathy of fans and their loyalty in following the club through thinner than thick years has clouded the growing discontent.

Michael as Ed said above all we can do as match-going regulars is protest (when we don?t get mob handed stewards removing them in the ground), protest on the web, sign petitions and vote with our feet, the latter being my course of action should DK get the nod after all the ticket and transport comes out of my own pocket and I could easily spend the money on my two young sons and wife, the young sons only introduced when they are old enough to away games which will be far more infrequent than the season tickets I would have bought them both.

The outburst of emotions may have been obtuse but heartfelt. The cap doffing subservient will always be ridden and used by the successful and further their progress. I?m my own man who won?t swallow the lies and obvious self-serving, no matter how much it will be difficult to give up going to the game after all these years they will have changed it too much and disenfranchised two members of my family after even more years of their following the club they love too.

Bilbo Baggins
30   Posted 27/07/2008 at 09:34:56

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Spot on Gavin, I was sitting by the KEIOC banner which was raised in the last game of the season and the majority of the people around me were all singing anti-Kirkby songs. I find it interesting that EFC hvave't announced their season ticket sales to date, every other year they are bragging how many have been bought.
I bought my son's for the family enclosure on Wed, and the assistant informed me that they were 3,000 down on last year, DK starting to bite already?
Jay Campbell
31   Posted 27/07/2008 at 09:06:41

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Michael Kenrick, I won?t be going the match anymore and the club while under Wyness and Kenwright won?t get another carrot out of me. That?s all I can do isn?t it?

I?m only one man and in the grand scheme of things probably won?t make a great deal of difference but I will not accept the board?s future vision for the club and to be quite frank i?m sick to death of the mediocrity being dished out season after season and a large section of the fanbase's willingness to accept it. I think David Moyes has done a fantastic job really, considering the restraints he has to work under and to be honest has been a great credit to Everton Football Club not only for his management skills but in the way he conducts himself. Truly a nice genuine fella.

I?m not going to into one about Kenwright coz you're right it is getting boring and my views on him and Wyness will never change but what is the most infuriating aspect for me is that it seems the Everton fans don?t seem to realise their own importance! They are the paying public. They are the club's bloodline. Without the fans there is no Everton.

I just cannot believe that Kenwright and Wyness up until this point have not been made to answer the many unanswered questions relating to so many matters that are wrong with the club today. All under their watch as well. To say they have ran through a minefield and sidestepped everyone of them is an understatement.

The Kirkby move is a perfect example of what?s wrong today in modern day football and to be honest i don?t want any part of it. That?s all I can do Michael.

Gerry Dignam
32   Posted 27/07/2008 at 10:53:15

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Ed and Michael. I am a season ticket holder and I have made a decision to attend all Premier League games, but as a protest against DK, I will not attend any cup games for this season. If all Everton supporters do likewise, we would be able to gauge how many are against the Kirkby move, and this will hit Agent Kenwright where it hurts ? in the pocket. I have not took this decision lightly as I love my club to bits.

The publication on EFC?s website from a so-called MP from Walton was the last straw for me. Telling EFC to get out of the Walton area and out of our great city was just unbelievable, and the club fully endorsed and agreed with it.

To Steve Pugh, Everton are my club. If we leave this city we will die. To answer your question, no I will not start going again once we move to Kirkby. Think of Wigan: this is what Everton will become, playing in a half-empty souless stadium, stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Mark Williams
33   Posted 27/07/2008 at 13:15:04

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My fellow BLUES.... it breaks my heart to read some of the views above.. but the truth is I agree with most of them.

I am a lifelong fan who walks the game and proudly talks of the magic of it ? the buzz, the sea?s of blue walking up Wessy Road and County Road... no other club in the world has this. The songs after a good win walking back down the streets... we are EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB and I hope we never lose our beauty.

I am a big anti-BK follower and have never trusted him... he thinks he?s the pied piper outside the ground giving tickets away but now he?s giving our hearts away. My thought of a protest are similar to the RS... we should stage a sit in and chant our feelings after the Blackburn game... big singnings or not!!! The RS did it and got answers... so we should get them too. We deserve this at least. Those who don't want to wear white or chant can just leave at the final whistle... those of us who want to make a stance can simply stay in the GRAND OLD LADY... she still loves us at least!!!


Greg Murphy
34   Posted 27/07/2008 at 15:52:49

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The only ways this rift is gonna heal - and I think it?s more pronounced than ever right now (and might really manifest itself in season 08-09 because the full facts have only emerged in the close season) ? is if one of three things happen:

1) We stay at Goodison and we eventually redevelop it to everyone?s satisfaction.
2) We stay at Goodison and then eventually find and relocate to another location that satisfies everyone.
3) We go to Kirkby and after a season or two it starts to emerge that it?s all great and there was never any need to worry.

All three of those are long-term solutions (even the end of, say, the 2nd season at Kirkby won?t be until about 2014).

So until then expect the rifts to deepen and fester for a good few years yet. Sadly that may well prove irreparable.
Mick Mac
35   Posted 27/07/2008 at 11:59:41

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I was just reading the very well put article Healing the Rift by Richard Tansey along with all the posts. It is clear that there is a large rift in the fan base similar to the rift between the miners who worked and striked in 1984. That rift never healed as such but look what happened to the mines. It would break my heart if this rift brought about the demise of this great club even though some people are saying the protesters who will talk with thier feet amout to just 1000. I suspect more.

Since the vote, I have read many posts on here with points of view both for and against the move. But come Monday or Tuesday the decision will be made and I think it will be in favour of DK. Then things will move pretty quickly.

My point here is 'What will the people who run ToffeeWeb do to help heal the rift?' Or will they actively encourage further protests? Just a point I am Yes voter and I was one who stayed out on strike but you still talk to the people who didn't.

Michael Kenrick
36   Posted 27/07/2008 at 16:24:44

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Mick, whatever happens next week, we will continue to do what we have always done:
  1. Report the news about Everton
  2. Post people?s comments about Everton in the Mailbag
  3. Put up feature articles written by Everton fans
  4. Provide a diverse range of threads discussing any and all of the above.

We are not in the healing business, neither do we "actively encourage" any of the above. We look at everything sent in and decide where to put it if it passes muster.

I have a feeling that, if a decison is finally made on Destination Kirkby, there will be a deluge of mails, a few articles, perhaps some considered Op-Ed piece from ToffeeWeb Towers. And judging by past experience, the stuff posted will cover a wide range of opinions, reflecteng the wide range of opinions that you will get from any sizeable group of Evertonians on any given Everton subject. Polarization of more strongly held views driven by the more emotionally expressed feelings from the most vocal Evertonians will dominate, of course, and may give the appearance of there being a "rift". But to me that seems to just reflect human nature when the chips are down: you are either for us or against us. The George Bush view of the world.

As for a comparison with the miners in 1984? ... er.. No. Differences of opinion expressed on am internet forum are one thing: are the two sides of the DK 'rift' actually at each other's throats in the pubs of St Helens?

ps: Jay Campbell: Nice post. Why can't all your contributions be that well written instead of the one-line bile I've had to delete?

Stephen Carson
37   Posted 27/07/2008 at 20:39:46

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Mark Williams

You should start a new thread about the possibilty of a sit down chant/protest after the Blackburn game? Try and get the attention of a few more blues so people know what's going one?

Possibly post the idea on Kipper, NSNO etc. and see how many people would be interested in this idea, hand out a few leaflets around Country Road before the game, get people to spread it round?

This is probabley one of the better ideas I have heard and I think its worth a go, it's about time we got our voice heard as a group and see how BK, KW react

Maybe we could make something happen???

Rob Hollis
38   Posted 27/07/2008 at 21:22:41

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Surely the only deliverable option is the one that the owners of the club wish to deliver and feel they can deliver. He who pays the piper etc.

Nothing lasts forever and if we are really honest with ourselves, supporters have been the last consideration since Sky TV bought the soul of the game. It is still entertaining and it is still Everton but TV cash in one form or another rules every decision.
Clubs are always walking a tightrope because of the stupid amounts of money commanded by even average players. The brats are also not attracted by a crap stadium, neither are new supporters. The world changes, just look at your own town centre.
The TV does not care if it is Goodison or Kirby, it just fills a couple of hours air time. The game as we knew it has gone. Goodison will just be another casualty of progress, but that might not be such a bad thing. Parts of my history disappeared with Liverpools old city centre, but I can?t say it is not better now.
Kevin Quinn
39   Posted 27/07/2008 at 21:36:00

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Mark Williams - good idea but as Stephen Carson said it needs to be taken further than just this web site,
Adam Cunliffe
40   Posted 27/07/2008 at 22:10:02

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Mark Williams

Your post is so true it’s unbeliveable.I get the exact same feeling.With my Dad and brothers walking to the game after we’ve parked up by the bus shelter where the lad on his bike asks to mind the car.Then going into the Walton Labour club or the Anfield pub for a drink before the game.It does make you proud to be blue.

Im on holiday for the Blackburn game but for anyone who disagrees with the move do some sort of protest be it either the white tee shirt thing or a sit in after the final whistle.

I so hope it gets called in
Steve Pugh
41   Posted 27/07/2008 at 22:14:32

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Gerry Dignam, are you saying that your problem is with Everton Football club and not with BK and Co.

You say that you love Everton to bits but if they move you will never go back. I don’t understand it? Why wouldn’t you go back if the people that have done this to the club are forced out and new owners take over?
Gareth Moore
42   Posted 27/07/2008 at 22:49:01

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I?m a ?Yes? supporter and I do sincerely hope that a protest IS called if Kirkby goes ahead - why? Well in my opinion the boil has to be lanced once and for all and show the ?No? supporters how little support they have from normal match-going Evertonians. I can think of nothing better than a few score/couple of hundred perhaps even a couple of thousand (In their dreams LOL!) staying behind after a match with their white shirts on, when 36,000 others wend their way home. It would kill the remnants of the ?No? campaign stone cold dead but no doubt they?d still come out with excuses like they always do (See Ed?s replies to Peter earlier). Bring it on!!!!
Dave Thomas
43   Posted 27/07/2008 at 23:07:57

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There’s a rift but I dont think its big, people exaggerate too much. Even the EGM that was called was not supported by over 1000 shareholders which equates to 75-80% of the shareholders!
Ed Fitzgerald
44   Posted 27/07/2008 at 23:25:19

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Even with the glossy campaign promising DK would be world class etc etc, over 10,000 didn't want it, did they?

Let's wait and see if it goes ahead. If it does as a YES supporter (your words) you will not miss the dribble of fans (?) who will no longer attend.
Ed Newcombe
45   Posted 27/07/2008 at 23:51:48

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Gavin R ? don?t make an enemy of me as a supporter since 69 your comments just give me strength.
Peter Bourke
46   Posted 28/07/2008 at 06:30:12

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I can see both sides to the arguement and both have positives and negatives. Wether your a "Yes" voter or a "No " I think it is each person's right to vote and their opinion respected.

The one and only thing that irks me about this whole debate is the UNBELIEVABLE thought of a so-called supporter not going to any more games to support the club and players because of any such move. There are thousands of fans like me all around the world who can only dream of seeing our beloved EFC in the flesh by going to a game. People whinging about having to walk 1 or 2 miles after they park their car or get off a train to watch a game should realise what a privilege it is to be able to attend games at all. I live in Australia and have supported EFC for over 25 years but I can only dream that one day my son and I will be lucky enough to go to a game.

My message is, don't take EFC for granted! Support them no matter where they play or who plays for them or who manages them. I understand the passion and emotion involved with this issue, but we must support our team no matter what the circumstances are.

Jay Campbell
47   Posted 28/07/2008 at 06:50:16

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Michael, I?m sacking the anger now coz I can?t arsed anymore. As you said the other day you?ll never change certain people's views.
Michael Tracey
48   Posted 28/07/2008 at 09:53:04

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If the Kirkby Stadium gets the tick of approval I will still support the Toffees. I will however never buy any merchandise of the club again! I will cancel my Evertonia Membership and Everton TV. I will also as much as it will hurt not actively encourage my future child (due December) to support the team. I would rather that he/she became a Spurs fan like my old man. This Kirkby will be the death of one of the great football clubs in Europe. Bill Kenwright you are a phony and an I am embarrased that you even call yourself an Evertonian.
Tony Williams
49   Posted 28/07/2008 at 10:49:15

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I hear what you are saying Peter and agree with it in the most but it?s ok saying it?s only one or two miles. That?s fine for a semi-fit able bodied person but I have a friend who is in a wheelchair so this one or two miles is obviously problematic for him.

He doesn?t go to many matches but I doubt he will go to any should the transport/parking situation not get sorted.
Steve Ashton
50   Posted 28/07/2008 at 12:22:34

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Jay Campbell - I really enjoyed your post mainly because it indicated that you will not be going to the match any more. I can only hope that Gavin is of a similar mind.

Gerry Dignum - the main entity that you hurt by withholding funds from the club is the club.

Mark Williams?s idea has merit and we should all support it (Yes and No voters). Yes voters will obviously go home immediately after the game, but it will serve as an indicator as to how many attending fans are against DK. Don?t forget non-season ticket holders and non-Evertonia members have never been given the opportunity to express an opinion.
Jay Harris
51   Posted 28/07/2008 at 14:21:46

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This post was supposed to be about healing the rift.

We?re all "mad" Evertonians so a bit of comradery might help even if we do see different "paths to glory".

For my part I cannot forgive this board for the constant stream of lies, deceit and mismanagement of the club which has led to this situation but FFS lads please stop the backbiting thats going on and disagree objectively without the nastiness.
Jay Campbell
52   Posted 28/07/2008 at 14:27:45

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Steve Ashton you have devastated me with your comments. I wonder if I?ll sleep tonight?
Andrew Myers
53   Posted 28/07/2008 at 14:25:01

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Here we go again. The article was all about healing rifts in the fan base and ends up on disputing the rights and wrongs of Destination Kirkby.

I think Richard?s hope of friendly handshakes before the Blackburn game are, unfortunately, not going to happen because supporters on both sides of the debate have now become so polarised. My view is that we should all be united in focusing on the team and what happens on the pitch because the club and it?s history cannot be changed.

I am a very sad long and loyal supporter who despairs at some of the vitriolic comments now coming out, on these pages and others, from fans who support the same club. Guys, life is too short so let's make sure we focus on the team when the season starts and not the off-pitch bickering.

Steve Ashton
54   Posted 28/07/2008 at 15:54:25

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Personally I don’t think that it’s the rights and wrongs of DK that is polarising people, it’s the way a lot of people - mainly on the no side - plan to deal with the situation if their views are not adhered to.

Saying ’if we go to Kirkby I won’t go again’ is simply cutting off your nose to spite your face and some of the views expressed on here border on bigotry.

I have followed EFC for 46 years and simply cannot imagine not watching them.

I was a yes voter but I changed because of the appalling way that the club have dealt with the situation.

I am not opposed to moving per se, just being given one set of ’facts’ by the club to enable them to acheive a result and then finding that those ’facts’ do not correctly represent the situation.

I feel let down by the people who run the club I love. But the people who run the club have let me down before and I am sure the at some time in the future another administration will let me down again, there have been 12 managers since I started to support the club all have fallen short at some point.

But I will never stop supporting the team, whether they play at Goodison, Kirkby or somewhere else.

I have been accused by the ultra nos of being a wimp, well I think I can live with that as much as Jay Campbell can live with my distaste for his proposed actions. But while at Goodison or Kirkby I will still have the opportunity to show my distaste for the current board every other Saturday, should I so choose and still enjoy watching the team. What options are left to him and his ilk?
Jay Campbell
55   Posted 28/07/2008 at 17:23:34

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Steve Ashton what is the point of giving them your money just so you can voice distaste? Actions speak louder than words do they not? Is it not apparent that the likes of Wyness and Kenwright are so thick skinned that they don?t listen to the like?s of me and you and will carry on regardless?

I?m sorry but I will not be taken for an idiot by nobody and you needn't spout the loyalty and "support them through thick and thin' line because they have had countless years off me and to honest it?s a load of nonsense.

Everybody has their breaking point and mine has been reached under Kenwright and Wyness.
EJ Ruane
56   Posted 28/07/2008 at 18:21:57

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Steve Ashton you say...

"Saying ?if we go to Kirkby I won?t go again? is simply cutting off your nose to spite your face and some of the views expressed on here border on bigotry"

Your opinion.

My opinion (of your opinion) is this.

You and those who think like you, obviously can’t get it into your heads that for many of us (some of us, a few of us?...whatever) it WON’T be Everton anymore.

I’m NOT asking you to agree, I’m simply saying that if you DID see things this way, WHY would you even contemplate going to see a club you DON’T see as Everton?

It’s a fairly simple logic to follow.

The notion that we won’t be going because we’re ’cutting off our nose to spite our face’ is just fucking dumb.

And as for your ’bigotry’ claim, talk about gibberish!

At least I can guarantee that the views expressed here from no voters, come from real people, not reds or lackies working for fat Keith and spending months writing pro-Kirkby shite under bogus names.

Remember this, nobody pushing against this move has ANYTHING to gain, other than keeping us where we belong.

NB:: No I’m NOT talking about you specifically, but to deny this has happened, after some of the shite we’ve read here, would be naive in the extreme (and to be fair, it’s exactly what I’d have done in their position)

Also, can we, once and for all, put a lid on this ’I’d watch them wherever they play’ drivel.

At ’home’.......ANYWHERE?

Away - yes of course, absolutely anywhere (I remember discussing KEIOC WITH KEIOC members at Colraine last year - Blues incidentally who’d made the trip over to Northern Ireland on the 14th of July, to stand in a shed in the pissing rain and watch Everton reserves)

But would you REALLY get a season ticket if we moved to the Hebrides?

Fact - No, you wouldn’t.

"I’d go wherever we play" sounds good but it’s bollocks and you know it.

So, question.

Where WOULD be too far.

Widnes? Stafford? Leeds? Calais?

NB: Home games are called home games coz you play them at home.

Play them somewhere else and you’re...well the MK Dons.

Neil Pearse
57   Posted 28/07/2008 at 18:35:06

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Milton Keynes is around 55 miles from Wimbledon, the people speak with very different accents, and the two place are not by any definition at all in the same part of the country (South Midlands versus South London).

Kirkby is next door to Walton, the grounds would be 5 miles apart, the area is Merseyside, and the people are all scousers who speak in the same way.

I think your comparison is a bit inaccurate.
Andrew Myers
58   Posted 28/07/2008 at 18:41:35

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Surprise surprise!! Because someone does not agree with your view point they are clearly talking "shite" and are totally wrong. I was a no voter but accept that we all have an entitlement to a view, neither of which can be proved right or wrong. Even if we stay in Liverpool City we may have to look at a site other than Goodison. Say it was in south Liverpool that would actually be further away than Kirkby - would you go or not?? As supporters we are in danger of alienating sections of our support which will help no one in the long run.
Simon Jones
59   Posted 28/07/2008 at 19:32:00

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South Liverpool is IN Liverpool so yes I would go there. Kirkby is outside of the city we originated from.
Steve Pugh
60   Posted 28/07/2008 at 19:35:26

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Simon Jones, so if we moved and they changed the city boundaries so that Kirkby was in Liverpool would that make everything alright?
Mark Williams
61   Posted 28/07/2008 at 20:24:11

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Thanks for the good response my fellow Blues. I will try to get word around as much as I can before the Blackburn game but will need a hand. I think we should have a go at this and watch their reactions. I am sure we all know a couple of people who are going the game and don't want DK!!! So spread the word, as much as we can and let's make ourselves heard. Gwladys Street, Park End, Top Balcony... we all have the same Blue Blood. Let's start showing how great we are....NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM.

ps: What would Dixie, Bally, Labby etc... think????

Gerry Dignam
62   Posted 28/07/2008 at 20:30:14

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Let?s all get in out in the open about Kirkby. I have an idea,would the powers that be at ToffeeWeb consider organising a meeting to be held in the old Everton Supporters Club before the game with PSV at approx 1pm. We could then debate the pros and cons of the move to Kirkby. Guest speakers could be asked to attend and put across their views, for instance Professer Tom Cannon, Ian McDonald, a representative of Everton Football Club, shareholders and fans who have voted for and against the move. We could also invite the Walton MP Mr Kilfoye. I would like to ask him the reason why he wants us to move outside the Walton area. It would also be good to have a representative of KEIOC present. There could be an open and frank discussion on all apects of the planned move. After the meeting there could be a vote, of which the result could be published on the ToffeeWeb website.
Michael Kenrick
63   Posted 28/07/2008 at 21:23:41

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Gerry, some good ideas there. We will gladly support and publicize such a meeting, and carry prominently as much information as we are provided with by the organizers and those who attend. Unfortunately, running this website is a full-time obligation for us that prevents us from taking much of a role in leading such an effort.

Personally, I believe KEIOC are best placed to set something like this up... but the negative press from some of their previous attemps at direct action may well preclude that from happening. Who else could take the lead?
Jay Harris
64   Posted 28/07/2008 at 22:26:22

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I actually dont believe a forum would work.

It was tried before in Hope Street following PJ?s rule and only a few hundred turned up. Ian McDonald was there and spoke very well and I?m sure he would get a good hearing at the supporters club but I think something more substantial needs to take place.

I liked the idea of white T-shirts for the Blackburn game and we could add white handkerchiefs/scarfs to show a call for a truce in the rush to Kirkby.If that was leaked to the media I"M SURE IT WOULD GET THE MESSAGE HOME TO THE BOARD ABOUT HOW MANY ARE AGAINST KIRKBY.

We need to be aggressive but peaceful and something like the Mexican wave of white might just do it.

Bernie Robson
65   Posted 28/07/2008 at 23:15:25

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I think it would be a good idea to send some info to the Alan Brazil Talksport show. It has a lot of football listeners but, make sure it's not the morning Mike Parry is co-presenter he's up BK & KW arse?s.
Steve Ashton
66   Posted 29/07/2008 at 07:25:52

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Actually I probably would get a season ticket if we moved to the Hebrides. But I have travelled 360 miles every other week of the season for the last 27 years.

Definition of bigotry - narrow mindedness, intolerance - think that pretty much covers your post.
EJ Ruane
67   Posted 29/07/2008 at 09:20:33

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Steve Ashton, - you?re SO obvious.

For you (and others like you) ?narrow-mindedness? and ?intolerence? is simply how you describe anyone who disagrees with you and is isn?t prepared to fart-arse around being ?polite? when dealing with such an emotional subject.

I make no apologies to you or anyone else for HOW I make a point (and I DO make a point - always).

You say "Actually I probably would get a season ticket if we moved to the Hebrides". (WHAT a blue!)

Personally, I think that posters who ?debate? like you (ie: say ANYTHING not to concede a point) - are far more offensive than someone using ?rudeness?.

Can I remind you we are talking about Everton FC moving out out of the city that has been home for 130 years.

We are not extras in an episode of Ever Decreasing Circles.

Andrew Myers - They are not talking shite because they disagree with me, they are talking shite because what they are saying ("they?re cutting of their nose to spite their face", "?I? would get a season ticket for the Hedrides") is a load of fucking shite.

(And if you believe them, it is my opinion that you BELIEVE in a load of shite).

Steve Pugh
68   Posted 29/07/2008 at 10:37:17

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EJ, people aren?t talking shite when they accuse you of "cutting your nose off to spite your face" they are just looking at things from a different point of view. To them supporting Everton doesn?t have anything to do with it being a big organisation from Liverpool, it?s all about that feeling at five to three on a Saturday afternoon when 11 guys in blue shirts run onto the pitch. It?s the sense of pride whenever they see the badge on tv, in a newspaper or simply on somebody?s football shirt when they pass in the street.

It doesn?t matter if the team are in the boundaries of Liverpool, these people love Everton FC not Everton of Liverpool FC. As for Steve Ashton saying he would buy a season ticket if Everton moved to the Hebrides being shite, no offence but asking the question in the first place was shite. Steve travels 360 miles to home games, I travel up from Norfolk, we are both season ticket holders, so to us distance isn?t a problem, and to be honest it doesn?t matter if we are in Liverpool or not, because I too support Everton FC, not Everton of Liverpool.

Now before you get to excited, I voted no to Kirby, and I haven?t renewed my season ticket this year. Why? because I don?t like the way the board are handling things, but as soon as they have gone I will be back, Kirkby or no.
EJ Ruane
69   Posted 29/07/2008 at 11:47:00

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Steve Pugh, you say..

"EJ, people aren?t talking shite when they accuse you of "cutting your nose of to spite your face" they are just looking at things from a different point of view".

Different ’point of view’?

Wrong - it’s actually showing an unwillingness to accept the notion of a ’different point of view’ (I’m NOT saying to agree with that point of view, just to accept the idea).

I said to Steve Ashton, in response to his ’nose claim’.

"You and those who think like you, obviously can?t get it into your heads that for many of us (some of us, a few of us?...whatever) it WON?T be Everton anymore. I?m NOT asking you to agree, I?m simply saying that if you DID see things this way, WHY would you even contemplate going to see a club you DON?T see as Everton?It?s a fairly simple logic to follow"

And it IS.

You either think Everton FC moving to Kirkby doesn’t affect us remaining Evertrton FC (Steve) or you think it does (me).

When I pointed this out, I was not it seems ’expressing my opinion’, I was "cutting off my nose to spite my face".

That in my opinion is talking shite’

(Maybe we need to define ’talking shite")

Ed Fitzgerald
70   Posted 29/07/2008 at 14:05:57

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Steve Pugh

Your post is a little schizophrenic. You lay into EJ and make a good case of what a loyal fan you are and then conclude your post by stating that you don?t like the way the board are handling things and have not renewed your season ticket. You confuse me!!
I voted no for Kirkby as well and I won?t go to Kirkby if and when we move there but I would not dream of not going to Goodison. You would have a job watching with pride watching people wear Everton shirts around these parts (i.e. in Liverpool) as you would have a job buying one in the City Centre!! as there are few outlets to buy them from. The next time you have a surge of pride when you see the badge have a good look at it, as I am sure you are aware its Prince Rupert?s keep on the badge which is still standing in Everton which is part of Liverpool.
I am very proud of my home City, proud that it is the home of one of England?s most famous football clubs. I am sick of people trying to disassociate Everton FC from the City of Liverpool it is something we should be clinging to not throwing it away casually. We are the original professional club in the City and were lifting a trophy at Anfield before Liverpool FC ever did.
Steve Ashton
71   Posted 29/07/2008 at 13:58:08

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Steve Pugh - Amen brother.

Let me be honest and say that in an ideal world I would love to stay at Goodison - nothing would give me more pleasure. However 27 years ago I had to make a descision to move my family out of Liverpool, it wasn’t an easy descision, to leave somewhere I had lived all my life, but I was pragmatic enough to realise that my family would be better off through making that difficult choice. Some members of my wife’s family never forgave me and haven’t spoken to me since, but in my opinion that is their loss.

The difference I suppose, is that the company I joined did not distort the advantages of moving to persuade me to go.

EJ - It was wrong of me to pretend that if EFC moved to the Hebrides I would still follow them - I wouldn’t because they wouldn’t be EFC - for a start they’d be playing in the SPL. But Kirkby is not the Hebrides.

Even the most blinkered of us could not pretend that in DK we have been deceived left, right and centre by the current administration, but please forgive me when I say that I just cannot understand why someone who obviously has great feeling for the club would completely desert them. And there my friend we will have to agree to differ, because I just cannot get my head around that.
EJ Ruane
72   Posted 29/07/2008 at 18:57:23

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Steve, as I suggested earlier, it is ALL to do with how you see Everton FC. You say you can?t understand "..why someone who obviously has great feeling for the club would completely desert them". Fine, no problem (or argument) from me, AT ALL.

In my own case, as I have tried to explain on many occasions, to many posters on TW, I see it NOT as ME leaving Everton, but EVERTON FC, attempting to leave Evertron FC.

An abstract notion but...there it is.

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