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Same old, same old.....

By Eileen Roberts :  11/08/2008 :  Comments (16) :
I can't say I read the Daily Post very often, it's too middle class for my sensibilities, and for that reason I don't really know who Chris Beesley is. But whoever he is, he appears to make the same mistake as many others when it comes to the issue of a future stadium for Everton. He appears to think it is only about identifying a better PLACE to have one. Unfortunately that is not the problem is it? I can think of some wonderful places for Everton to build a new stadium. Top of my personal wish list would be right at the summit of Everton Park overlooking the whole city! On a clear floodlit night you would probably be able to see it from Snowdon...certainly from most viewpoints in Liverpool.

But that really is not the problem is it? The problem is who pays for it and throughout this whole debate nobody has ever answered that crucial question. That is why there was no plan B because to have any plan at all it required somebody to come along with a whole pile of readies to pave the way for us. Only one organisation was prepared to do that, Tesco, and that was why Kirkby was the one and only option, Plan A, because there was no way of formulating any other plans without Tesco or somebody else coming along for the ride with a big fat wallet.

As for LCC, what assistance does Mr Beesley expect us to get from them? A list of sites? We have already had that and it was found severely wanting. LCC have already said more than a year ago that they could not and would not do what Knowsley did and provide the land for effectively nothing. LCC are already skint, considered a basket case by those who study regional economics and there will be no freebies coming from that quarter. Could LCC identify and encourage another enabler for us? This would be very doubtful as they really are a basket case economically and nobody would take them seriously and they can't even get the long awaited Project Jennifer off the ground.

Would any reasonable person consider them trustworthy anyway? They objected to the Kirkby retail plans on the basis that it contravened the Planning regulations while omitting to mention that the Liverpool One development broke the regulations too.

Sorry Mr Beesley, the real dilemma, the real choice, is between Destination Kirkby and rotting in our shoes where we are. There is no Plan B other than that because nobody will fund one and we can't fund one ourselves. So, to answer the question of where Mr Beesley was a year ago.... probably somewhere with his head stuck in the clouds.... or somewhere much darker.

Reader Comments

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Tony Marsh
1   Posted 12/08/2008 at 15:53:35

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Eileen, you really don't understand football supporters do you?Especially Everton supporters. Kirkby is a non-starter for thousands upon thousands of us so what is the point moving there when the erosion of the fanbase will far outweigh any mythical revenue streams that may or may not be created.

Football clubs like Everton belong where they belong and not glued on to a supermarket in the middle of nowhere.The shame and embarrassment of leaving the city to LFC just because our chairman is a skint incompetent doesn't make Kirkby the answer. If there was no Kirkby what then? Surely Cherrytree Drive isn't the only plot of land in the world that's available is it?

Why do you find it necessary to bleat on about LCC being the Baddies is also pathetic. Kenwright was given the chance of a life time by LCC with the Kings Dock site and all he could manage to do was string everyone along for 18 months.

How about "once bitten, twice shy" coming in to play here? Would you trust BK again after the Kings Dock fiasco? if you where apart of LCC. Then again you probabaly would.....
Neil Pearse
2   Posted 12/08/2008 at 16:51:59

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Eileen, you are absolutely right. Finding a physical place for a new stadium has never been much of an issue. Finding the money has always been the issue. That is why all the endless speculations about ’great sites’ have always been pretty irrelevant. Sad but true.
Jim lloyd
3   Posted 12/08/2008 at 19:03:11

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Bit of Deja Vu here.However, the thing that has always concerned me is that, no other proposal other than DK, has been considered by the club. At least as far as I know, the loop, redeveloping GP, what, if any plan was available for a ground in WHP.

All I heard was the club didnt think the loop was big enough for a 75,000 seater and that GP was too small, but I don’t remember seeing any details of discussions with relevant parties.

Now, hopefully, we will see whether the council do have any concrete proposals, as the leader indicates their are.

I’d love to see Everton stay in our city but I do understand that funding is a major issue. However, I understand that EFC’s contribution to the Kirkby development is £78million. That’s hardly chicken feed. If that is true, then it would seem to me that the money would be needed in full right from the start to furnish the ground.

If, and its only an if, Goodison Park can be redeveloped , then surely the cost can be born in our own good time. Could not the Park End be the first and be increased by at least 5000.

Mind you, the way its looking, we don’t seem to have any money for players, let alone any plan for a ground.
Dave Wilson
4   Posted 12/08/2008 at 18:50:56

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When will the penny ever drop? There is one reason and one reason alone that there was no plan B. There was no plan B because, that?s what people like you and Neil Pearse voted for!

When you people jumped in with both feet and voted for this incredibly stupid exclusivity agreement, you were not only accepting there was no plan B you were making absolutely certain that there never could be.

You complain about needing someone with a "whole pile of readies to pave the way for us" then claim, "Only one company was prepared to do that, Tesco" ? Now why do you suppose that was the case ????

Rather than tell the messenger - Chris Beesley - where he is going wrong, why not ask yourself, who it was that actually slammed the door on any possibility of another company throwing its hat into the ring? Although you have been warned from just about every corner that DK was far from certain to get the green light, you were still happy to dive without a parachute - a plan B
EFC are in deep shit, it wasn't some new kid on the block journo who put them there.

Barry Sherlock
5   Posted 12/08/2008 at 19:36:20

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Tony Marsh,
LCC are the baddies. Kings Dock. How long ago was that? LCC need to get over it and by the sounds of it so do you. We aren’t going to Kings Dock and we aren’t going to Kirkby. The question that Eileen is posting is; where is the enabler going to come from with ANY site in LCC?
Alan Ross
6   Posted 12/08/2008 at 19:29:28

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I’ve read on a number of threads on this site the mention of Sainsburys and Walton Hall Park. Without knowing the ins and outs of the deal it’s hard to counter the likes of Eileen’s argument from a financial perspective. Does anyone know the full story without recourse to speculation. Is it perhaps in Everton’s interests as they appear to be doing to extracate themselves from the non-disclosure agreement with Tesco to investigate the above proposal, or is it a non starter?
Alan Ross
7   Posted 12/08/2008 at 19:49:31

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Actually, I meant exclusivity agreement
Jim Lloyd
8   Posted 12/08/2008 at 19:49:58

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Good point Alan,

Hopefully, if EFC are now able to rid themselves (if they want to!) from the exclusivity agreement with Tesco’s, then maybe these proposals can be examined in detail.

I remember reading a quite detailed post concerning WHP, Sainsbury’s and a businessman who had developed the idea.

Hopefully, he will come on again, or at least someone with the details will.
Jim Lloyd
9   Posted 12/08/2008 at 19:49:58

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Good point Alan,

Hopefully, if EFC are now able to rid themselves (if they want to!) from the exclusivity agreement with Tesco’s, then maybe these proposals can be examined in detail.

I remember reading a quite detailed post concerning WHP, Sainsbury’s and a businessman who had developed the idea.

Hopefully, he will come on again, or at least someone with the details will.
Steve Johnson
10   Posted 12/08/2008 at 20:30:31

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Can I just say it was EFC who wanted to re-build on Stanley Park years ago put LCC refused them, so why was Liverpool given permission to do so? Also, at the same time with the size of the park and the car park there is a enough space to build both grounds on it.
Tom Hughes
11   Posted 12/08/2008 at 21:01:05

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Eileen,
Please show me where anything says that Tesco are going to be paying for this stadium. In your own time!

At £78m+ (and that’s only if the full retail enabler is allowed) EFC are actually playing for 3 out of the 4 stands. Your whole argument collapses around that. Super Tesco are contributing ZERO. Tesco’s don’t own the copyright to land release and enabling packages. In fact if anything, their version is one of the least lucrative. Compare it to what was on offer at Kings Dock where over 90% of the stadium development (A far superior stadium) was being funded on a much smaller plot via a similar process, not just 20% as at Kirkby.

As it happens the site you propose sits pretty much in between project jennifer (which Tesco have just been kicked off I believe) and the city-centre’s £multi-billion developments. There are large council owned packages available in the area with far greater scope than the single-storey out of town retail shed park. Skyscrapers, hotels and penthouse apartments are not really an option in Kirkby. In the current climate we may have missed our boat there (for the time being) but who’s fault is that?
Karl Masters
12   Posted 12/08/2008 at 21:20:09

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Which means Steve that the obvoius answer is a shared stadium on it

Neither Club can afford what they want on their own but together and with some public money and grants thrown in maybe they could.....
Jay Harris
13   Posted 13/08/2008 at 01:06:09

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Steve
Everton never ever asked about Stanley Park.

I think it was Tom who posted that all requests are noted and filed and open to enquiries and if you enquire at the planning office you will find we have never asked about developing any site in Liverpool not even GP nor KD.

KD was offered to us on a plate by LCC which seems to be the only way BK does business.

He is not in the least pro active. If Tesco Terry hadnt propsed Kirkby we wouldnt even be looking at ground moves.

Never mind plan B he doesnt even have a plan A.
Tom Hughes
14   Posted 13/08/2008 at 09:19:54

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Jay, Steve,

That is correct, just another urban myth bizarrely used by some to promote leaving the city. Wrong in both content and motive. EFC have NEVER asked to build a stadium on Stanley park. (unless of course they asked way back in the 1890’s). The only request I have heard of was I believe to redirect Walton Lane inside current park land to expand the park end car park or some such. This I believe was refused since amongst other reasons this end of the park contains all the listed victorian features such as the Lake etc. As opposed to the other end which is already compromised by football fields and a sports centre. However, if no-one believes this...... ANYONE can request copies of planning applications or even info on formal requests. Significantly, it should also be noted that EFC have never mentioned this, nor utilised it in their pro-kirkby campaign. They couldn’t!!
Alan Kirwn
15   Posted 13/08/2008 at 10:03:12

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Eileen, good post which articulates the situation, as you see it, excellently. I agree with much of it.

Those who immediately jump down your throat (no need to name names, they know who they are) are simply perpetuating the negative bile aimed at anyone connected with the club during this whole debate (and most times it really does seem like ANYONE).

It might be a good idea if everyone paused for some thought, and for the impending EGM, to see what transpires. The idea that ill-informed opinion dressed up as fact, rumour, innuendo and occasional fantasy actually helps anything or anyone is a joke.

The negative brigade keep peddling the spin that Tesco are contributing nothing towards EFC’s new ground in the context of DK. The fact is that had it gone ahead then Everton would be receiving the land for free and the stadium build (from Tesco’s construction partner) almost at cost. Both of those elements together constitute a value (or at least they do in the world that most intelligent people inhabit).

I wish that it were possible for us to have a stadium in a prominent city centre position. It would be fabulous. I was in dreamland when Kings Dock was muted. I was also so depressed when it didn’t happen that I wrote to Bill Kenwright to enquire why he’d been in denial for so long and didn’t just come clean.

But that was then and we move on, or at least most people do. I don’t hold BK personally responsible for the apparent demise of EFC (4, 6 & 5 in last 4 seasons). I think he’s tried his level best and knows his limitations. I also think he wants to give the club FAR more than he would ever take.

I can only hope that this forthcoming EGM helps to open the book on what’s been happening and what our options really are. You (Eileen) hit the nail right on the head by identifying the quaint, rather old-fashioned idea that someone has to PAY for a stadium. Current costs for an above average 50,000 seater stadium including land, construction and all fitting is upwards of £150m. Liverpool’s (if it ever happens) is currently at almost £300m.

And still we wait for the idealist to explain who, why, where & how this money might arise for alternative sites.

Good post Eileen.
Tom Hughes
16   Posted 13/08/2008 at 17:28:16

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Alan,
Funny how you cannot actually say so much without addressing the issues or even telling us what Tesco are actually contributing. It is Zero. We were the ones supposed to be paying next to zero according to the pre-vote literature, but now we’re not. Is that not fact and/or the real "bile" in this situation along with all the broken promises you subscribed to? Tesco are not the only people with construction company contacts by a long way, and they certainly haven’t wielded their wealth with any great effectiveness on this project. The construction costs are just £100m (small change to them), yet we are expected to find at least 78% of that....... (probably more now) compared to just 10% at King’s Dock. As far as gifting the land, so what? We own our current stadium, so where is the benefit there? Throw in the ridiculous transport plan that has been rejected at least twice already and where is the real bargain here? A low quality stadium we can’t all get to easily..... for the price to us of 3 new stands? Deal of the century? No conjecture nor innuendo required, we got enough of that at the vote, conveniently forgotten by you now! Comparing DK to LFC’s is also laughable. They are looking at a far more advanced and expensive design. It will be a minimum 20% larger, expandable to over 70,000 with executive provision many times that of Kirkby. Stick with the real issues, and you will find it far more difficult to justify voting "yes", especially as what you voted for bares little resemblance to what it turned out to be. A 50k stadium with no additional revenue streams, no prospect for expansion according to Knowsley’s own planners, no viable park and ride according to Merseytravel........etc. They are the facts and the reason why there is going to be an EGM, because shareholding members of KEIOC amongst others petitioned for it. Anyone who attended the last AGM will have been left in little doubt as to the majority opinion amongst shareholders. The club had no answers, wyness was pretty much gagged and even the club’s expert was shotdown and admitted he couldn’t answer. The whole process has been a farce from start to finish, and I should add that I have been involved with much bigger construction jobs than DK at a design level.


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