Keeping said gob shut has become increasingly difficult when I see that accusations relating to our manager (or ?Dithering Dave? as some like to refer to him) are now starting to fly and that our resident soothsayers have predicted that our club is on a fast track to impending financial doom.
The latter has probably got at least some element of truth. Clearly, things are not rosy in the corridors of Goodison and only a fool would suggest that these problems are not finance-based. Whether or not they relate to DK is another conversation entirely and not related to the point of this post, though KW leaving, DK being called in, the selling of AJ, Moyes?s failure to sign his contract and no new faces suggest that all are related and offer more than a hint that we are facing very real financial difficulties.
The above considered, it beggars belief that some would suggest our lack of incoming transfer activity is down to any dithering on the part of our manager. Are people really suggesting he chose not to bring any new faces in??? Are they suggesting he was prepared to let McFadden, Carsley, Wessels, Stubbs, Johnson and a couple of kids go in a twelve month period and buy only Yakubu? Are they suggesting he only wanted players of the quality of Moutinho and M?bia and that he never honestly believed he needed depth, even if that meant a slight compromise on his ?quality only? policy for new faces? Frankly, for a man who is so meticulous in his preparation, any such suggestions are nonsense. I think this will be borne out between now and August 31 when we will see a couple of signings that add to squad depth if not the overall quality.
David Moyes is honest, hardworking and perhaps more importantly, a loyal employee. His body language and demeanour over the past month or so do not hide the very evident frustration he is feeling. He recently stuck his neck out and took the bullets for our failure to secure any new faces, ?It?s my fault? he said, ?I?m the Manager?. Very honourable. How many of us would stick our necks out for a bumbling and incompetent employer? How many would take such inevitable stick when the easy answer would have been a ?wasn?t me Guv?nor?? Not many I don?t think and the fingers of one hand would suffice for counting.
Our manager clearly knows the state of our club, knows why Wyness left, knows how much money is(n't!?) available, knows what players he needs to take us to the next level and perhaps critically, in my opinion, knows exactly what the fallout would have been had he taken the ?wasn?t me Guv?nor? option and blamed those responsible for negotiating transfers. IMO, he took the inevitable flak because he believed that would be in the best interests of the club in the current circumstances, because he believed that the flak aimed at BK could be terminal and, at this moment in time, be catastrophic for the club. (I am no fan of Histrionic Bill ? but the time for him to leave is not until we have a modicum of stability back)
The reasons for the lack of any transfer activity? IMO, it?s difficult to look beyond finances and perhaps the terms our negotiators were suggesting. Moutinho for 16 million quid? Sounds great until you realise it?s for two bob a week over 8 years. Vagner Love on loan? If CSKA Moscow values him at the reported 15 million quid ? why on earth should they loan him? Either way, let?s face it, I don?t think any of us believe we have shown any great negotiating ability in relation to previous transfers, so why should now be any different?
All things considered, David Moyes is the single best thing to happen to Everton in recent history. It?s very likely his failure to sign a new contract is down to all of the recent shenanigans and his wish to see that the club?s ambitions and abilities match his own. Right now they do not. The last thing he needs is any indication that the fans do not want him.
So, to all the Moyes bashers, FFS, leave off him or you may just get what you wish for and push him out of a door that is already ajar. Now that would be disaster.
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1 Posted 20/08/2008 at 13:35:40
2 Posted 20/08/2008 at 13:42:06
I am a big believer in David Moyes.
However, he has stated that the lack of transfer around goodison is his blame. No body elses.
So therefore he must take the blame and stick for it.
3 Posted 20/08/2008 at 13:52:17
If you put yourself in the firing line, expect to get shot.
4 Posted 20/08/2008 at 13:45:15
5 Posted 20/08/2008 at 13:52:06
6 Posted 20/08/2008 at 13:46:52
Did you by any chance look at our sub?s bench on Saturday?
Moyes knew we would be without Cahill, Hibbert, Fernandes, Carsley, Gravesen, McFadden and Johnson. He also knew we had to name seven sub?s. Does anyone believe we could not have brought in a couple of 1-2 mill. squad players for cover?
I have defended DM on numerous occasions on here but he admitted he had money to spend. If it was a cry for help naming academy players as sub?s, he can go and do that at another club for me. We could have brought in cover, we never, we lost on Saturday.
7 Posted 20/08/2008 at 13:59:18
8 Posted 20/08/2008 at 14:04:58
9 Posted 20/08/2008 at 13:50:10
1) At the start of the summer, when Moyes would have liked to have signed players there was no money.
- The Board’s fault.
2) Then later on when there seemingly is money we have a further complication.
Moyes has his policy of quality not quantity. Borne out by the fact that we only ever sign a few players, but they can generally cover more than one position.
He has also stated that our policy revolves around getting the prime targets in, and then seeing what’s left to spread where’s most needed.
To sign these top players we have placed the negotiating in the hands of "brokers", who seemingly have led us a merry dance through the transfer market, straight to the worrying and embarrassing situation we find ourselves in now.
Who’s fault is this?
Well, normally you wouldn’t or shouldn’t find anyone criticising quality over quantity. In most seasons when we have had 20 senior pro’s this is an acceptable strategy, and it has worked. We’ve had slow improvement on the pitch and now we have no dead-wood in the senior ranks for the first time in decades probably.
However this was not a typical summer and extra players were/are needed urgently.
I’m not suggesting that we should have just bought anyone simply because they have experience. If they’re not able to contribute once Cahill etc return there’s no point in having them. A youngster would be better off learning their trade. However, Moyes must have had a rough idea what the prime targets would cost and therefore a rough idea of who the supplementary signings would be. At least 2 of these supplementary players should have been nailed on already, and if they dented the potential for 1 of the priority signings then so be it. That would have been a necessary sacrifice.
Therefore for this side of things, Moyes must take some blame. Which he has.
The other side is the "brokers". Perhaps naively the club have placed their faith in these people to do the deals. This has led to the situation above where the club have hung on, clearly too long, in the hope that these prime targets would be delivered in time.
To be let down in such a fashion, where the deals were not only delayed, but cancelled is either bad luck or extreme naivety. I’m inclined to think it’s a combination of both.
So in this section it is the Brokers fault.
In conclusion, the whole thing’s a mess.
10 Posted 20/08/2008 at 14:01:49
We are all guessing through at the end of the day and I suspect the full truth re EFC’s apparent ’summer of discontent’ will never be known.
11 Posted 20/08/2008 at 14:12:54
There are lots of places he could go. Celtic is the obvious one (Regular CL Football). He could also wait for a Sky 4 job to come up.
Alternatively he could take a job with a smaller, but more financially stable, club such as West Ham, Middlesbrough etc. With one of those clubs he could achieve just as much as what he has at Everton and would have more financial clout to consolidate on 4th or 5th place finishes.
He’s also talked about managing abroad.
It’s a bit complacent to think we are the best he could do.
12 Posted 20/08/2008 at 13:59:25
I think that what we?re witnessing with Moyes?s whole demeanour of late, is indicative of a man torn between being true to himself or resolutely defending the increasingly indefensible ie. The club and its shambolic state of direction. My fear is that soon he?ll decide enough is enough, cut his losses and depart to a club where he?ll enjoy the proper and necessary support his talent deserves. That for me will, in a summer of doom and gloom, be indeed the darkest day.
13 Posted 20/08/2008 at 15:17:43
The only reason it took so long to sign Martyn was that our club knew he wanted to come but saved a month?s wages by fucking about.
I don?t put all the blame on Moyes but he?s in it up to his neck, believe me!
14 Posted 20/08/2008 at 15:24:38
I also have to applaud him even further with his notion that, even though we are desperate for quantity AS WELL AS quality, he is not prepared to go out and buy players for the sake of making the numbers up. To repeat a previous sentiment on this post, he has a brilliant nack for buying quality players who can cover many positions.
Obviously the onus is on him now to actually GET some players, in which I fully believe we will have at least 2 to 3 new faces come 31st August.
I just hope that he signs his contract and doesn’t leave because, to again echo previous statements on this post, if he were to leave us it would be a lot fucking worse than us not signing anyone, that’s for sure.
15 Posted 20/08/2008 at 15:34:06
This quote from footylatest says it all for me:-
Moyes expressed his disappointment yesterday after the club issued a statement saying that funds were available all summer:
"Well, that’s the club statement," he said. "The market is harder to buy in now, there aren’t as many players. I felt the best time to increase the squad was at the end of last season or at least to start then. We’ve started a little bit later than that."
DM is one of us and believe it or not "Black Bill" isnt.
Moyes has demonstrated countless times that he is a man of integrity.
The same cant be said of our self serving board.
The same supporters who drive Moyes out will be back on here criticising Joe Royle or Dave Jones or whoever the next unfortunate manager will be.
16 Posted 20/08/2008 at 16:32:29
17 Posted 20/08/2008 at 15:00:28
It?s funny how some people think Moyes is to blame for it all. First of all, a stated wanting to buy Quality, to get players who can take us forward is a good thing, and this forum would have been full of people moaning about a "lack of ambition" when the Bullards and Ledleys started rolling in, with no sign of better on the horizon!
Next reasoon that you can see Moyes is not to blame. We?re all aware that M?Bia AND Moutinho are both keen to join Everton, Keen having been persuaded to do so BY MOYES (whether or not they also want the raise in salary) So we know Moyes has done his job, He?s identified targets, he?s even persuaded them to come to Everton. So who then is supposed to "seal the deal" is Moyes to get out his visa card? Does he write a personal cheque? No he doesn?t so you just can?t blame him for that.
Finally if he wants quality, but can?t be sure of the price he HAS to get the quality 1st, then deal with whatever money he has left. He has no interest in standing still or moving back down the table so putting himself in a position where all he has is players comparable or inferior to the ones he already has is not worth it. Example (prices irrelevant it?s just to show why he has to do it his way)
Moyes has £22m. He wants 2 MF with that money (3 if he?s incredibly fortunate)
So he gets No.1 target Moutinho for £14m, good news, that leaves him with £8m for No.2 MF target Michael Johnson!. However Moutinho deal costs £18m, that only leaves £4m, so Moyes has to get No?4 MF target Jimmy Bullard. Either way he?s got 2 MF for the money but one way he gets his 1st + 2nd choice the other he gets his 1st + 4th, So if he goes out and gets one of the others 1st AND it turns out Moutinho ends up being £14m, well too late, you already bought Bullard in a panic, and you could have had Johnson. Or you say buy M. Johnson, but then Moutinho is £16m and you can no longer afford him. You?ve got less quality than you wanted and wasted a chance to get a top class player, because you panicked! ?
It?s pretty simple really and whilst we can debate whether or not we would have the courage to take that stance (many Evertonians it seems would not) at the end of the day Moyes gets paid to make that decision, and it?s to his credit that he has the balls to make the one he did. Time will tell if it was right or not, anyone that thinks they know the answer after one game, in which we didn?t even perform is not as wise as he thinks he is!
You should also consider what respect and gratitude are. It?s one thing to say you can criticise Moyes, (not doing so doesn?t mean he thinks the sun shines out of Moyes? ass!), but the venom and vitriol with which Moyes is being criticised is embarrassing! He?s done wonders at Everton and a relatively small budget. Everyone in football knows this, yet we?re all so quick to want him hanged for what we THINK is a mistake, and what we THINK he is responsible for. Critique by all means, but balance please, a morsel of gratitude for what he?s done so far?
18 Posted 20/08/2008 at 17:03:51
19 Posted 20/08/2008 at 17:24:15
20 Posted 20/08/2008 at 17:29:56
21 Posted 20/08/2008 at 17:21:08
Contracts mean nowt in today's game..
Moysey told me so!!!
22 Posted 20/08/2008 at 17:45:34
23 Posted 20/08/2008 at 18:39:21
It would be a complete disaster if Moysey joined MU, he would only go there on the strict understanding that Fergie would go on a specific date and that Moysey would take over. They already have one of our very best players, let's not give them our manager by booing when we lose or filling the boards with comments that belong in the playground COM & COYB
24 Posted 20/08/2008 at 18:54:41
25 Posted 20/08/2008 at 19:00:43
Anyone any thoughts
26 Posted 20/08/2008 at 19:08:24
27 Posted 20/08/2008 at 19:48:54
You?ve paid no attention to anything Moyes has said . NONE
He?s confirmed there was money, but it seems not all of it was available.
You CANNOT buy the cheaper players first as it leaves you without enough money to buy the expensive ones
IT IS SIMPLE MATHS!
You also can?t say he hasn?t been getting players when it?s all over the news that M?Bia AND Moutinho have both been recruited by Moyes only for the money side of things to hold then up. It?s not hard to work out.
28 Posted 20/08/2008 at 19:50:35
DM manage one of the top 4 ? it wont happen and DM knows it wont happen.
Celtic ? A great club with arguably the biggest fanbase of all, but they have 4 big games a season, NO manager worth his salt would leave a prem club to go to the SPL these days
As for Boro and West Ham, they already have Managers who are at their best with their backs to the wall, why would they pay millions in compensation just so they could get another one ?
Moyse is going nowhere
29 Posted 20/08/2008 at 19:54:57
30 Posted 20/08/2008 at 19:55:37
You could match Alistair Campbell in terms of adding spin ? not sure I spun anything at all but this is all about opinions.
I don?t recall saying ?that the sun shines out of David Moyes? arse and therefore he is honourable?, but I?ll not dwell on that either.
Yes of course my post was based on my perceptions, what should I have based it on? Your opinions? The perceptions of others? My post leant heavily on the fact that I believe Moyes had taken bullets on Kenwright?s behalf ? I believe this view to be borne out by Moyes? recent ?That?s the Club?s Statement? comments and the fact that his new contract remains unsigned.
There?s no disagreement from me that the whole summer has been a shambles ? (debacle was the word I used) but surely, whether you are a Moyes fan or not, looking for a new Manager at this stage is the last thing we need?
Oh and yeah, perhaps I should say that given we?re the fifth most successful Premier League side over the past three years with a net spend (over five years) of around £5m (I?m sure I?ll be corrected if that?s wrong!), maybe I will start thinking the sun shines out of his arse.
31 Posted 20/08/2008 at 20:22:27
I?m not sure if he would have anything lined up, though he would command a job anywhere outside the top 4 and perhaps even as Taggart?s number two.
I get the impression that he is highly principled and that he would walk away rather than be lied to or let down. Again, only my theory, but I just cannot fathom any other conceivable reason why that contract would remain unsigned!
32 Posted 20/08/2008 at 20:52:05
It gets better. Moyes isn’t allowed a holiday now either!
Another post that conveniently overlooks the FACT that 2 players have openly stated a desire to come to Everton, thanks to Moyes, weeks ago. So unless he’s expected to use his visa card, or go the Barclays and ask for a very big loan, what more was he upposed to do about Moutinho and M’Bia?
33 Posted 20/08/2008 at 22:04:37
34 Posted 21/08/2008 at 00:03:29
35 Posted 21/08/2008 at 00:30:12
Wheres the £16million Moyes supposedly bid on Mouhtinio?
What a ridiculous question. It’s sitting in a bank would be my guess, waiting to be spent on Moutinho or someone else.
Why do you ask?
36 Posted 20/08/2008 at 23:42:51
David Moyes has his failings and he has demonstrated these year after year with what I believe to be inadequate performances in the transfer market. I’m speaking here of his strategy not the targets he has landed and those he has not been able to land (which have not received the publicity they warranted).
I think just about every manager in the EPL has weaknesses in their profile, be they an inability to relate effectively with players or to make decisions, but the well-run clubs (like other businesses) have strategies and structures in place to deal with them. In this respect, David Moyes is no different to any of his colleagues.
My major concern with Mr Moyes is his apparent ?dithering? in the marketplace represented by his propensity to unnecessarily drag out decisions on which player to buy. Many Evertonians have attributed this to his desire to conduct a rigorous analysis to ensure he gets what he wants. This is a theory that I do not subscribe to; rigorous is something you do during the season, not during the transfer window. Mr Moyes has, over the past five years, consistently taken far too long in making decisions about which players to recruit and, in my humble opinion, this pattern of behaviour, which has in the past cost us players we wanted, clearly indicates that he has trouble in arriving at a decision and needs support in this area. However, this is not a hanging offence and a truly supportive and competent Chairman and CEO would provide the necessary skills support to offset this shortcoming.
Equally, a supportive and competent Chairman would ensure that he backed his manager up and, when the manager made a strong statement to the effect that the squad desperately needs quality reinforcements in January, he would ensure that the necessary planning activities (including the rigorous analysis) had been carried out and finalised by mid-May at the latest, and that he had the required funds to support the Manager?s recruitment campaign in place.
Based on our performance over the last five summer transfer windows, I don?t think this has ever happened. In this respect, both the Manager and the Chairman have failed us.
Where I think David Moyes has failed this summer has been his silence on the lack of movement of EFC in the marketplace. To the casual observer, he has swanned around Switzerland and the US with training camps and some practice matches and has generally avoided taking actions that could be regarded as purposive in terms of bringing desperately needed players into the club at the appropriate time. His mantra (which he has used extensively over the past three summers and the last two January transfer windows) that it?s a ?tough transfer market? tends to be in the same vein as Mr Kenwright?s mantra that he is ?seeking investment 24/7?, and, unfortunately for David Moyes, has the same lack of credibility as Mr Kenwright?s mantra. Fans have been hearing and reading this but still see other clubs bringing in additional resources whilst EFC have not. This is what I think has led to the anger over Mr Moyes? transfer efforts this summer. His recent apology was also too little, too late.
My concern now is ?will he learn from this fiasco or will we again be in the same position at the same time in the next transfer window??. And part of his learning might be to confront the Board and spell out the need for them to support him by planning marketplace activities and securing appropriate funds up front.
So far as the rumours that he will go the Manchester United as assistant to Sir Alex Ferguson they may be true, but then again I think of the poor relationship he has with one Wayne Rooney (which is probably to Mr Moye?s credit) and I don?t think that the Board at Man Utd will risk upsetting of one of their leading ?stars?.
37 Posted 21/08/2008 at 06:43:38
38 Posted 21/08/2008 at 06:58:46
I agree with you, obviously I dont know for sure, but DM strikes me too as being highly principled, however you see that as a reason for going, I see it as a reason for staying.
I dont think he believes there is a better club for him, I doubt he would be offered more money elsewhere, or maybe, just maybe, even in todays money grabbing climate its STILL possible for a manager to love the club he works for.
You ask : why hasnt he signed ?
I ask : If he was going, why hasnt he gone ?
39 Posted 21/08/2008 at 11:14:49
"Dithering Dave" takes too long to sign players?
As far as I’m aware once a manager tells the board he wants a player. The Chairman contacts the other clubs chairman and beings negotiations. Once a fee has been agreed Moys can then talk to the targets player. If transfer negotiations are protracted then that IS NOT down to Moyes FFS!
As for his "over the top rigorous" analysis of potential transfers.
Lets just look at a few that he decided not sign because of this "OTT" player research (much to the disgust of some short sighted fans of the time);
...yes DM obviously doesn’t know what he’s doing!
Even SAH signed some turkeys -Veron £30M, Djemba Djemba, Forlan, Tiabi, Kleberson, so i suppose he is a shite manager too!
40 Posted 21/08/2008 at 11:25:56
41 Posted 21/08/2008 at 12:25:07
Every transfer window is a saga with Moyes (apart from the one where he snapped up Lescott and Johnson early and we got off to an absolute flyer)
Oh, and I for one don’t have a problem with knee jerk reactions, some people just sense danger quicker and therefore react with speed to survive. Others dither and die.
42 Posted 21/08/2008 at 12:42:12
However the season is on us and we have not yet signed anybody. There is a limit to one’s patience. I hope Moyes proves me wrong - I would indeed be very happy to be proved wrong - but I think 1st Sept will come and go without any additions to our squad. He has known - or surely must have known - that e.g. Carsley could be leaving, that Cahill would miss the start of the season and that there was some event at the other side of the world that could involve Victor Anichebe. How has he reacted to these situations ? He doesn’t seem to have planned well for them does he ?
I contrast this inactivity with Phil Brown at Hull City - they got promoted via the Play Off Final so basically had 3 weeks less than other clubs to make any additions to his squad. He has wasted vey little time in adding players to his squad.
There are players out there, we could have added some loan signings - but we have done nothing.
Walter Smith gets a lot of stick in these pages - but have we forgotten his transfer moves in 1999 when the full extent of Agent Johnson’s actions became evident ? With very little money available he signed David Weir and Scot Gemmil and got Kevin Campbell on loan. The first 2 were cut price deals as both were in the last year of their contracts.But at least he responded to a crisis - he acted - I sometimes get the impression that DM is waiting for things to happen rather than making things happen.
The fact that our bench last week was made up of only 6 players and only 1 with any 1st team experience is an absolute disgrace. Surely DM knew how threadbare our resources were - could he have not at the very least added a couple of players on loan ?
I hope I am wrong - I really do - but I fear that currently David Moyes is looking very much like the football equivalent of Gordon Brown.
43 Posted 21/08/2008 at 13:00:55
He is the only positive in a club run by utter incompetent fools. He has turned round a club heading in the direction of Coventry City on a f###king shoestring whilst having to work with an awful management team (board level). Yes sometimes the footie might not have been ’school of science’ but at least we started getting results and respect.
This WAS the summer to move forward and yet again the board let the club down. Does anyone really believe Moyes has the final say on transfers?! Get f##ing real, he states who he would like to sign and then the board do the rest (or not as the case maybe). The man has ambition, ambition that he wants to restore Everton once again and f##k me but he might actually do it if the board backed him properly.
Some people on here talk utter shite and to think if Moyes left we would simply just become a club that makes up the numbers. At least he shows that he wants to break the top 3 (forget the shite).
Yeah blame him if you want. In my opinion though there isn’t a better manager other than the top 3 in the premier league. If this man was at a club like Spurs he would have already cracked the big time.
To repeat he doesn’t dither, he knows who he wanted but the transfer negotiiating skills of the board let him down.
Lets just move to Kirkby, employee Peter Reid and become fucking nobodies. Moyes will move up whilst we become forgettable.
44 Posted 21/08/2008 at 17:44:15
45 Posted 21/08/2008 at 19:40:32
I have seen players come and go, some not even be given a chance, some come, perform quite well and then get fucked off without an explaination.
I have seen players leaving left, right and centre when we have no adequate cover.
I have seen other clubs sign players within a few days of first enquiring about them.
I have seen players leave and then watched their eyes fill up when they say ’I never had a problem with Everton’ in their new clubs press conferences.
I have seen at least 5 players (Johnson, Beattie, Kroldrup, Wright, Davies) signes and then fucked off, rightly or wrongly, by David Moyes.
I have seen Everton go from potential UEFA cup winners and looking like the most likely team in England to break the BIG 4, to looking like they will struggle to make the top 10 if they don’t sign well with 11 days left.
NOT ENOUGH PROS, TOO MANY CONS!!!!
46 Posted 21/08/2008 at 21:11:51
People seem to forget the likes of the Kroldrup saga, what the fuck was that all about anyway? The only time I have seen Moyes act to bring in a player very earl it was Simon fucking Davies.
47 Posted 21/08/2008 at 21:59:32
48 Posted 21/08/2008 at 23:24:41
well thats what he did? whos faults that?
49 Posted 21/08/2008 at 23:38:20
Joe Royle was the only other top manager we have had for years and even he quit when he saw that the board were not gonna take the club any further.
We bthen went backwards til Moyes came, I would hate to see that again.
Moyes has made massive errors in judgement with players.
He is partly to blame for our current predicament, despite his track record.
50 Posted 22/08/2008 at 00:13:28
We all know that DM has made mistakes but he is learning and getting better. He is growing in much the same way the team is. We will get the players in soon so that we can make a charge.
The people that have disagreed with your points should read it again. DM is doing his best to bridge the gap with the finances available... even if that means waiting for his choices and incurring the wrath of those that dont share his vision.
Getting 4 average players just wont do... and the likes of Arteta, Cahill, Lescott, Yakubu, Yobo, Pienaar and Howard deserve better than that. As do we
51 Posted 22/08/2008 at 00:34:35
52 Posted 22/08/2008 at 12:05:29