Being a Scotsman, Moyes is pretty pragmatic, cautious both in management decisions with the team and how it plays, how often have we bemoaned defensive situations when we should have gone in for the kill? It?s the way of the man.
Selling AJ would only have been done if he was assured of either a replacement or the money to get one. So what happened?
The much heralded comments from Ian Ross that the call-in would not affect the money available for transfers was either speculative or a lie. BK, infamous ?Watch this space? was just pure spin. It's been in my mind for the past few weeks that there is a power struggle going on in the club and Moyes has been left in the middle and the team is now paying the price. But let's walk this through a minute.
I believe that, until Kirkby got called in, all the Board where acting as one, and none of them really thought it would actually get called in. Wyness ?probably? got wind of the decision and It may well have been the case that KW's row with Green before it's announcement was more to do with a possible decision to freeze funds for the team if Kirkby was called in. Which would make his position untenable as he would be the person who had to negotiate deals for players on Moyes wanted list and with no money to do so; whilst the club and BK were publicly going on record to say the money was there. Hence he started making calls to his network regarding his own future, culminating in his resignation
Earl and Green have a lot riding on Kirkby, Planet Hollywood, Retail etc but without it, their investment is at risk; they would probably want out and their investment back upon their subsequent resignation from the Board. [Ed Note: Christine, Sir Philip Green is not a Director of Everton Football Club]
It?s not to big a stretch but I would think that, once the call-in came, they did put a block on money for Moyes, hence his subsequent frustration. With Destination Kirkby now set for a Public Inquiry in November, suddenly there are funds available again but I suspect only what was gained through the sale of AJ.
But of course this puts the 5-6 players of quality out of the frame, and of course Moyes is now faced with a lack of availability of any players of the quality he needs. Timing is everything in football, but not to some people... So Moyes is left holding the baby. Carrying the can and not being able because of his loyalty to the fans and the players to tell the tale behind summer.
As I said before, Moyes is too shrewd a cookie to be complacent, which leaves the fact that someone on the Board probably pulled the rug from under him. This doesn?t leave BK blameless if he kow-tow?d to Earl & Green, as he holds the majority shareholding and casting vote at any Directors meeting. So power games over money, Kirkby and a possible lost opportunity for Green & Earl come into play.
Moyes in the meantime has been pretty much handcuffed and gagged. His face tells of the dejection he feels; I wonder if it will turn to anger sooner than later. Of course the Board are happy for the manager to carry the can. Let's them nicely off the hook I suspect they are still banking on Kirkby to come through as their magic bullet.
But the abject stupidity of the management of this club is disgraceful. The vested interests have torn the vision for the club to shreds. For the past few years it has not been reflected on the field but now it is endangering the best team we have had for decades, the best manager, and the hopes we have for the future. My gut instinct is screaming. Someone pulled the rug. Someone took their ball and stopped the team from playing.
David Moyes's biggest error of judgement has been in trusting the management to support him. All the spin in the world will not detract from the fact that if money was not there, what could he do? That error of judgement is not Moyes's fault; he wants success as much as (more than?) the fans. Don?t do him the disservice of condemning the man because he is the only one who has shown integrity.
He has a difficult season ahead of him and he deserves our support, the team deserve it too no matter how frustrated we become because of inexperience or quality. I just hope Moyes frustration will not mean his speedy departure, if we turn to blaming him, it will only make it inevitable.
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1 Posted 23/08/2008 at 17:15:35
you’ve summed my view up far more eloquently than I .
Well said and if supporters will only get behind the man instead of dancing on his grave we may still have a half decent season with some journeyman signings to beef the squad up.
IMO there is only one consistent theme since Kenwright took over and that?s deceipt,fantasy and incompetence all in equal measures in the board room.
Paul Gregg who only got involved with EFC because he was a friend of Kenwrights saw through him over the KD fiasco.
Then BK had the temerity to generate a campaign to discredit Gregg and "pretend" that he had investment (Fortress Sports fund)coming.
I have no doubt that he told Moyes we would make "BIG" signings he said as much to the supporters only 2 weeks ago with his "watch this space routine" and "I have seen the Dvd?s of players we?re looking to buy and I say wow".
Those supporters blaming Moyes and excusing Kenwright have very short memories.
Kenwright is a lying,deceitful dreamer
If he doesnt resign soon he?s an absolute disgrace of a man.
Ed please note it is widely accepted that Earl fronts Green’s holding and seems to wield far more power in the boardroom than he should so while technically incorrect Christine is spot on.
2 Posted 23/08/2008 at 17:18:34
You raise some interesting points. I’m not one for conspiracy theories but your scenario is quite plausible given all the "non-facts" that they emanated from Goodison Park in recent months.
I really hope you are wrong--but I wouldn’t be surprised if your theory is closer to the truth than anything else that has come from the club.
3 Posted 23/08/2008 at 17:31:08
The Board, well they have seriously let him and us down.
Moyes and the team now need our support, in shed-loads.
The Board deserve nothing, but our disgust at their inept management.
4 Posted 23/08/2008 at 17:32:14
5 Posted 23/08/2008 at 17:41:10
6 Posted 23/08/2008 at 17:22:34
Though speculative, your article is quite astute. I was contemplating writing a similar passage given the events of the summer and there would have have been a great deal of common ground. But there remains the nagging question of DM’s contract and I can’t help the feeling that the new contract would have had a gagging order attached to it. So just in case everything went tits up this coming season and DM was in the fireing line from the fans (and it seems from his recent comments he was expecting it) then if DM and Everton parted company soon then his hands wouldn’t be tied if he wished eventually to spill the beans. Conjecture I know, but highly plausible.
7 Posted 23/08/2008 at 17:42:13
The liars you stupidly trust to run this club have told you....the Kirkby decision does not effect the funds available to the manager for player purchases.
You can?t have your cake, freeze it, raffle it off and eat it!
8 Posted 23/08/2008 at 17:48:02
9 Posted 23/08/2008 at 17:52:21
Did it ever occur to you that they might say things directed at other audiences? Like, just for example, if you are and have been in negotiations to buy some expensive players for a few months, it might not be best to let on that you are not sure if you will have the money to pay for them? Just a thought.
I think you people must live with the Boy Scouts where everyone tells the truth all the time to everyone else. Do you think Wenger or Ferguson, for example, always tell the truth?
By the way, do you think we would be in the same situation regarding money for transfers if Kirkby hadn’t been called in? Christine doesn’t seem to think so given her comments about Earl and Green. And neither do I.
It’s you that want to have your cake and eat it. You want to believe that it was great that Kirkby got called in and it has had no effect on the financial position of the club and its ability to buy new players. You are completely wrong.
10 Posted 23/08/2008 at 18:04:31
11 Posted 23/08/2008 at 18:21:13
In my business, integrity and reputation are paramount
Everyone gets one chance - once they’re caught out, all bets are off
If you can’t tell the truth, say nothing and let people draw their own conclusions
Would you like me, or Gavin or Jay, to pontificate on what your problem is?
12 Posted 23/08/2008 at 18:41:22
13 Posted 23/08/2008 at 19:33:30
Fortress Fund (the whole thing) - I’ll give you a clue on this one discredit his business partner to retain control
Rooney is a £50m player
King’s Dock money is ringfenced
Looking for investment 24/7
Next 48 Hours (weeks ago)
Money for players isn’t linked to the DK decision (via Ian Ross - don’t give me the PR Department is an independent it takes it’s orders from the board)
Watch this space
That’s just a few I’d love to hear you pontificate on who they were aimed at and their true purpose. You could also add be prepared for a surprise on Saturday said to supporters and their children face to face at the PSV pre-season friendly, who was that aimed at and what was it’s true meaning?
Cal if you are happy that BK (the true Blue bollocks we are constantly rammed down our throat) should be "fucking us over" to get to the top then why not have a far more successful foreign business tyrant in his place who could bump up the prices and expand what we have?
14 Posted 23/08/2008 at 19:46:15
I already did "money for players isn’t linked to the DK decision" - obviously we are not going to advertise to people who we are negotiating with that we are in financial difficulties.
"Rooney is a £50M player" - well this would obviously be to talk up the value of a player that we might have to sell. This kind of talk is reported in the papers every single day.
"Looking for investment 24/7" - stupid way of putting it admittedly, but as an indication that we are very open to offers of investment, probably true.
"King’s dock money is ringfenced" - presumably trying to keep the deal alive with potential partners when in reality we are financially struggling.
So there’s a few. Most of the so-called ’lies’ you cite are statements made in the midst of very complex negotiations with multiple parties. They are being used to signal all sorts of things to who knows whom. If you as a businessman are so pure that you never did or do such things, good for you. I work with multinational companies too, and it is not the world that I live in.
Finally, the root of most of these statements is the truth that cannot be told - that Everton for the last ten years at least has been a club living financially on the edge. What you seem to want with your obsession with transparent truth telling is that Bill should go around repeatedly telling people that we are skint (no money for transfers without DK, Rooney is for sale at a good price, we can’t afford the King’s Dock etc. ...). That’s just naive Gavin. I’m glad for the most part that he doesn’t go around telling everyone quite how much of a mess we are in all the time. I’m not sure how that would make him a better businessman, but you can perhaps explain it to me.
15 Posted 23/08/2008 at 20:05:47
?Imho? David and Bill have taken most of the criticism due to their misfortune of being the two most visible characters at senior level.
Bill has his faults and looks way too calm and nonchalant for a man whose beloved team is on the verge of competitive meltdown. For example the "watch this space" sound-bite might wash with the Clinton administration but not the common folk. However David could have kept his mouth shut but he came out in support of him.
I believe the problem is the yellow bellied coward in the background. If ?Root-in? ?Toot-in? Two Bob Earl was really Bill?s friend then why call his loan in or freeze funding now. He?s a billionaire for Gods sake. At least show him support at a time when the man and his club need it.
I am aware that he has a reputation to hold on to and throwing good money after bad is never an option, but the club is/was on the way up, the Premier league is an abundance of riches and the Champions League was an optimistic possibility 3 months ago, so why create a power vacuum?
His actions have been both spiteful and dishonourable and I feel that he wouldn?t care if we played in an Iraqi death pit as long as there was burger bar access. Seriously, Bill needs to check who he slips into bed with.
As for David, the only reason he is still around is that he doesn?t want to let Bill down, has loyalty for his team and a genuine love of the club. You can never say never though. If he can walk away from Preston who are we to stand in his way?
Good piece again Christine.
16 Posted 23/08/2008 at 20:10:02
17 Posted 23/08/2008 at 20:15:48
Neil, accepting your premise that Bill and his employees lie to obfuscsate and confuse, cloaking their own agenda while impeding that of others...what if they lied to the target audience that includes your good self about the benefits of Kirkby?
Perhaps there are none?
18 Posted 23/08/2008 at 20:26:39
If they had they would have said: we are not in a good financial position to compete in the modern Premiership; we desperately need new revenue and investment; we cannot get that without a new stadium at a reasonable level of investment; Kirkby is the best option in terms of our investment that we are ever likely to see; and we certainly cannot afford anything else.
If they could have persuaded people of these true things, then we would have had much less fantasizing about world class stadiums in Liverpool, or unfortunately irrelevant speculations about rebuilding GP.
19 Posted 23/08/2008 at 20:31:59
That would have bought the man a bit of slack (and respect)
But I think, even on that basis, a head-over-heart vote wouldn’t have been a foregone conclusion
20 Posted 23/08/2008 at 20:37:08
It’s clear by Moyes’ guarded utterences, his body language and writ large by his unwillingness to pledge his future that his hands are tied by financial constraints not of his design.
I fear the worst.
Good win by the lads though today and there was nothing wrong with Jack Rodwell’s goal.
21 Posted 23/08/2008 at 20:47:28
So let me round off tonight by agreeing that "this will be a world class stadium" was a clear, 24 carat LIE. The only purpose that could have was to persuade people to vote for Kirkby without revealing the embarrassing true reasons (we need it and can’t afford anything else). I think they would have been better telling the truth on this one.
22 Posted 23/08/2008 at 20:41:53
why dig out an old chestnut in the middle of a crisis.
Kirkby has fxxx all to do with the 66 miilion debt that BK has run up since taking over,has nothing to do with the Kings Dock fiasco, nothing to do with the NTL fiasco, nothing to do with looking for investment 24/7 since 2000, nothing to do with Fortress Sports fund, nothing to do with "I wouldnt sell Rooney for 50 million", nothing to do with shafting his previous friend Paul Gregg, nothing to do with selling McFadden in the middle of an important campaign , nothing to do with selling Johnson from an already depleted squad.
I am sure Gavin is capable of defending himself but it is you who are naive not him.
Kirkby is a championship standard stadium in the middle of nowhere with unacceptable transport links which was only ever conceived as a "get rich quick" scheme for Bill and his buddies leaving Evertonians split right down the middle and EFC seriously in debt.
If you cant see through that lying,deceiptful, incompetent Charlatan by now then I pity you.
Since Green/Earl apparently refused to endorse any more loans what happened to the "watch this space" and "the next 48 hours" and "I see the Dvds of players we are going to sign and I say wow" was that also a negotiating stance to get prices down?
As you’re so keen on Kirkby can you please answer 2 questions:-
1.How will the transport proposal work?
2.What will be the financial benefit to EFC?
Please dont rush your answer I’m going out to celebrate.
23 Posted 23/08/2008 at 21:02:42
24 Posted 23/08/2008 at 21:07:33
I’m sure the credit crunch has had some level of impact but the decision process on financially supporting your club when you are mistreated is easily swayed.
25 Posted 23/08/2008 at 22:21:21
26 Posted 23/08/2008 at 22:21:36
The only reason I brought Kirkby into the conversation was that it was a catalyst for the situation we are in adn in that respect Neil P is correct.
But Neil, as you well know, we sit on opposite sides of the fence regarding the pros and cons of that debate. But this was the boards flawed strategy that engineered the current situation/ You may well be correct in saying that IF the government hadn’t called it in we would have had a pot load of money for transfers.
But truth be told, Kirkby was a bad call. All eggs in one basket meant that should it not proceed then the club would be in a precarious position.
That does not make Kirkby the right decision, just the one certain people were banking on.
Vested interest that did not necessarily have EFC interests at its core. Thats the point, failure to have alternative solutions or even contemplate a "What if" scenario and a lack of good decision making have caused us to be were we are.
It was the decision to go to Kirkby that was wrong in the first place so please don’t use it as a whipping stick to say everything would have been ok if the governemnt hadn’t called it in. We MAY not have been were we are today but it has laid bare the inept management and poor decision making.
The scenario I painted in my article is, I think, as close as we will get to the facts but I hope to goodness that Moyes will hang in there.
27 Posted 23/08/2008 at 19:13:28
Kenwright, the Board and Moyes have a business to run and it’s a highly competitive, dog eat dog environment in which they run. We’re not the richest one in our "industry segment," so yes, they don’t have a lot of cushion to keep up with the market leaders (i.e., the Big Four). They need things like new stadiums done in partnership with municipal government and other companies like Tesco. Yes, they need to borrow from investors like Robert Earl. Yes, they have to sell some less good "assets" like Andrew Johnson so that they can buy other better human assets.
But guess what? Like any other business, just because they want to buy other assets doesn’t mean that they’re available right now to acquire at the limited budget that the company/team has to offer. (Not every company/team can be like Google/Chelsea and buy at any price at any time.) That means that it can be extremely frustrating working with what you have now while you wait to improve your company/team.
So what does the CEO/Chairman of our company/team tell us? Kenwright has been completely open for the last three years in saying that this company/team needs a much larger capital base from new shareholders to compete against his industry’s leaders. He’s said that he needs billionaire capital investors because millionaire capital investors can’t compete in this dynamic new market called the EPL. But Kenwright is also clear to everybody that he doesn’t want just any billionaire capital investor/new owner. He wants one with the best interests of the company/team at heart. Kenwright wants a new owner who doesn’t trash what’s good about this company/team that "punches above its weight," to use a boxing metaphor. He doesn’t want to happen to Everton what Manchester City is now facing.
But it should be obvious to any of you that a new capital investor wants to acquire a successful company/team with a strong general manager (accomplished in the person of David Moyes, courtesy of Bill Kenwright) with a strong track record in the company’s/team’s market (accomplished, courtesy of David Moyes) who has high quality capital assets (accomplished with the new training facility, courtesy of Kenwright) and a company that has lined up replacement of its glaringly inadequate primary capital asset (proposed with the new Kirkby stadium replacing Goodison Park, courtesy of Kenwright) with a limited amount of debt (proposed via the Tesco joint venture, courtesy of Kenwright).
If all that’s not in place, then no new major capital investor appears. Bill Kenwright has told all of this multiple times to every thick-headed pessimistic poster on this website and yet you still accuse him of being underhanded, untruthful and evil.
So yes, if our company/team as it’s currently capitalized and with its beloved but outdated capital assets can’t catch a few breaks in its highly competitive "market," then the general manager and his workers have their work cut out for him. But that’s how business works, whether the business is a manufacturer, a service company or even a football team. Failure to adapt means failure of the business (see Leeds United, Queens Park Rangers, etc.)
So snap out of it, Michael Kendrick, Phil Bellis and your ilk. If you and the other customers of the company that you truly love want the company to be successful, then stop imagining that Kenwright and Moyes are lying to you. And stop fighting their painful yet glaringly obvious decision to build the new stadium at Kirkby. If you were rational and not emotional and if you recognized that they have a business to run in a difficult market, then you would see that their strategic decisions are the only clear ones that can be made for our beloved Everton Football Club.
28 Posted 23/08/2008 at 23:40:52
29 Posted 23/08/2008 at 23:51:56
30 Posted 23/08/2008 at 23:29:28
I do agree with Neil in part in business you can not tell the truth all of the time. In every workplace in the land there is an onus on confidentiality and data protection.
Unfortunately in defending BK over his lies by attempting to contextualise them, different audiences being a prime example, it starts to fall down. In order to win the DK vote the club told some whoppers to gain a mandate, is this acceptable? Fortress sports fund a nigerian email scam brought up by BK to fend off questions regarding a lack of investment in the club. Leading LCC a merry dance over the money for KD for two years?
"One final point, in my business life I have learned the most valuable commodity is trust. Without it you don?t have much to build on."
The above is from Terry Leahys open letter.
Remember that Neil when you defend BK over his lies. In all the debates about DK you downplay the lies told by the board, this is a mistake, reputations matter.
31 Posted 24/08/2008 at 00:00:06
I’m saving my real vitriol till September 2nd, and whilst I know DM hasn’t been perfect this summer - I know enough to know he’s being made a ’patsy’ by our boardroom and financial incompetence! Get a grip EFC - if Davey goes we are F****D! (sorry for being old fashioned, Michael, I’m embarassed to use the word in association with our great club)
32 Posted 24/08/2008 at 00:06:52
"Courtesy of Kenwright?"
Amazing how he can’t answer a single question about all this stuff that is courtesy of him.
Kirkby is a farce from start to finish and is courtesy of Leahy and his confederates who are Kenwrights backers, and who are all poised to benefit greatly by this development. There was never any exhausting of the options regarding redevelopment of Goodison nor any receptiveness to a development on the Loop since neither could give them the retail that THEY can prosper by. The fans have been had and most accept this now, yet there are still a few remaining diehards still trying to justify their decision because they or their egoes can’t face that fact.
Bottom line is Kirkby is an attrocious choice of location for a stadium for EFC. The transport strategy for the supposed "most accessible stadium in the country" (is that another irrelevant lie or an important one?) has long since decended into farce...... even if this was a stadium for nowt, even if it was the San Siro with Knobs on....... it would mean nothing..... since Evertonians can’t get to or from it in sufficient numbers to make it work. None of these will be bothered when the newly packaged EFC is sold on to the next passing investor while the paint on the white elephant is still wet.
33 Posted 24/08/2008 at 01:47:43
34 Posted 24/08/2008 at 02:09:21
35 Posted 24/08/2008 at 02:09:09
and your point is...?
36 Posted 24/08/2008 at 01:49:00
Think back to the middle of last season and how elated we all were by our on pitch success. I think you may well be right in pointing out the REAL culprits behind this fall from grace, messrs Earl and Green. Ruthless, soulless, and uninterested in the success of the football club. Success for the club would merely be a bonus to add to the profits gained from their retail investments. Thes men are messing with the future of EFC which is bigger than them all (DM and BK included).
I like Moyes as a man but I don’t understand why he cant get the team playing retention football. We looked great for the last two minutes of the WBA match when we were’nt even trying to score, but found ourselves in and around their box, KEEPING the ball for fear of conceding an equaliser. WHY CANT WE KEEP THE BALL LIKE THAT ALL GAME??!!??!!
A win is a win though! COYB.
37 Posted 24/08/2008 at 02:25:00
38 Posted 24/08/2008 at 02:36:28
2-0 and we’ve bought no-one
Who the F’n hell are you?
Grow up you tit
39 Posted 24/08/2008 at 02:39:17
40 Posted 24/08/2008 at 07:16:55
However you seem to have forgotten a couple of things. Why does Kenwright persist in raising the fans hopes and then dashing them again ? What is all this rubbish about "Watch this space" or the "Next 48 hours". If he has nothing meaningful to say then he should shut up !
Kenwright has a habit of telling lies as rightly listed by Gavin. Not just one lie but a series of them ! I cannot be bothered to list them all again but suffice to say the man is a serial liar and as such the sooner he goes the better for all concerned.
Hopefully he will find his investor but I doubt it as he is waiting for the "Tescodome" to be given approval before making off with a pocket full of cash. Some may say he deserves it. I don’t.
41 Posted 24/08/2008 at 08:47:37
The problem is you guys are still far too optimistic. You’ve got to realise one day the situation we are actually in (not the one you would like us to be in) and start from there. And worrying about who exactly is to blame for the situation we are in is a waste of breath and irrelevant. The point is how to get out of it. Like it or not, Kirkby is a possible way out and no one has yet been able to describe any others.
On the endlessly boring discussion of Bill’s ’lies’. One category is him talking to obviously different audiences than us and talking up the financial state of the club so that we can actually do business with people when we are basically skint. I’ve yet to hear a response to my question of whether some of you think he should instead have said: "We can’t afford Kings Dock probably"; "No investment in the club is likely"; "Of course Rooney is for sale at a good price well below £50M"; "We may not be able to pay you for Moutinho if Kirkby is called in". Presumably you think he should have ’told the truth’ on all these matters?
The other category of ’lie’ is stupid crowd pleasing statements (like at the PSV) game about future transfers. All I can say is that if you think this kind of rather dotty stupidity is the worst thing going on at Everton at the moment - well, I wish I was on what you are on.
42 Posted 24/08/2008 at 09:09:59
43 Posted 24/08/2008 at 09:28:50
No he should not have said that we cannot afford Kings Dock but by the same token he should not have said that the money was "Ringfenced" either. He then had the problem of Paul Gregg who was, allegedly, funding the project. So what does he do ? He invents a story about the Fortress Sports Fund !
This completely alienates Gregg and the rest is history.
It is also interesting to note that the cost of Kirkby has now dropped to £50m which of course we haven’t got. According to some on this forum this would raise our borrowing to approx. £120m. Were not Leeds having problems with a similar amount ?
Would you please answer me one question. How are people going to get to and from Kirkby ?
44 Posted 24/08/2008 at 09:29:10
"I could scarcely deny it would be MUCH better if we had more options, but the reality is we basically dont"
The exclusivity agreement you voted for has served - and continues to serve - only to guarentee that, why to you continue to overlook that FACT whenever you feel like telling us where we are going wrong ?
You dont know there is no other interested parties, but you think by continually saying there isnt, the rest of us will forget that stupid agreement
When the whole DK shambles is finally put to bed, I hope for your sake that Tesco show you the same sort of loyalty you’ve shown them
45 Posted 24/08/2008 at 09:48:34
On the transport - FFS guys. Any new stadium which isn’t bang in the centre of Liverpool (which we will never be able to afford in a million years) is going to have transport problems. I agree, these are real issues. But do you guys really think that when a 50,000 person football stadium is actually being built this will not focus the minds of all concerned to solve some of these problems? That is the way these things work in the real world, and they will work in this way here too.
Since you cannot come up with any alternatives to Kirkby, and the financial consequences of not securing it are now becoming obvious to all, the only issue you have to bang on about is transport. You can’t say we have lots of other options that we can afford and that will bring us new investment - because you basically know now that we don’t. I’m not sure who it is now who should wake up and smell the coffee!
46 Posted 24/08/2008 at 09:58:46
47 Posted 24/08/2008 at 09:55:16
Try parking in one of the streets off Wessie Rd, there’s more than enough a good one means you walk 1/4 of a mile, a bad one means you walk 1/2 a mile. GP is STILL the easiest place to get to and leave in the prem
48 Posted 24/08/2008 at 10:04:16
I have never thought it would be cheaper to build in the city, in fact I think we can all agree it wouldnt be
however, there could well be other interested parties and who knows, they may well come up with an idea where EFC’s contribution is similar to the amount required for Kirkby, a 300 mill stadium split 3 ways - KD proves thats a possibilty - would cost just the same as a 200 mill stadium split 2 ways
I know I’ve been a over simplistic with my figures, but I wanted to illustrate that, until every potential partner has had their opportunity to put forward proposals, DK will never ever be considered "the best offer"
49 Posted 24/08/2008 at 10:10:24
I must take significant issue with your comments.
Who is to blame for the situation we find ourselves in is relevant if we are not to make the same mistakes in the future.
At no point have I said BK is solely to blame for the situation we are in, I believe the club is acting under the constraints imposed for reasons I have speculated on.
A management decision was made to put all the eggs in one basket. Thats poor management not to have a fall back option of at least a workable solution. None given.
They knew the risk or should have known the risk of it being called in and made alternative plans. They haven’t.
These are management calls. They made the call, they gambled on it not being called in, it was, they lost. Now it appears to me that someone with the control wants their investment back as a result.
Thats why David Moyes is handcuffed. Not because of the crap transport plan or the $78m deal of the century. But because of a board that didn’t have a good fall back plan.
Like all of us, David Moyes put his trust in the people managing the club. It appears like us he was wrong to do so.
50 Posted 24/08/2008 at 10:28:21
51 Posted 24/08/2008 at 10:30:06
"So not so many evil lies after all. Good" What the hell is that supposed to mean ? The man is a serial liar. Just read Gavins post for pities sake.
Something tells me that you are still to be convinced that Kenwright is not the man for the job.
I have to imagine that you are bored and you thought you would come on here and wind a few people up. There can be no other explanation.
52 Posted 24/08/2008 at 10:30:25
Is it not a shame that Davey has abandoned his policy of turning average players into good ones ? Arteta, Cahill, Lescott ? and set his sights on the prima donnas?
53 Posted 24/08/2008 at 10:37:17
Christine, you and I actually agree about quite a lot. We agree that Bill is a hostage to a lot of other interests who all seem to be more powerful than him. We agree that the club has been far from well managed in recent years. We agree that it is in the interests of the club to secure a change of ownership and management.
We disagree that in reality there are the other fall back options that you talk about. Even vaguely, what are they Christine? What are the other options which would put us on a path to new ownership and management and investment?
Wishing doesn’t make it so. Sometimes you really have few options. Sometimes only one. Even the best management are not magicians. They cannot make us fundamentally richer than we are, or a better case for investment than we are. In the situation we are actually in, we are SEVERELY constrained. Kirkby was a real potential way out of these constraints. I give Bill credit for finding it and supporting it. Since personally I cannot even imagine what the other options would be, I don’t hold him responsible for not finding them.
54 Posted 24/08/2008 at 10:52:21
To be honest, I am much less obsessed about Bill and any other personalities than you seem to be. I am not "loyal" to him, I hope he is replaced. But that does not mean I think he is a serial liar (I think that?s a childish and naive judgement), or that Kirkby isn?t the best actually available option for the club. That?s all.
55 Posted 24/08/2008 at 10:48:39
Your comments on this thread defy belief. You are the type of person who would rewrite History a la David Irving. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?
Your response(s) are patronising in the extreme.
56 Posted 24/08/2008 at 11:00:40
By the way, given the outpouring of pro-Kirkby and more moderate Bill sentiment on the day of the Kirkby call in, I think we can safely say that many others share my views.
57 Posted 24/08/2008 at 10:55:54
The top four can all tot up borrowings of £500M apiece whilst Everton?s assets are only worth credit of a tenth of that amount. Surely it ?s unreasonable to expect ?mates? of Bill Kenwright to provide open credit lines when they have no real interest in the club and are just doing him a favour. I do think that the club has become a victim of the credit crunch in which even the Greens and Earls have started to cut back.
So many conspiracy theories have been advanced and I do think that BB could have helped his own cause by being a little more open about the situation. But then, what businessman wants to plead poverty? It just ain?t good for business!
58 Posted 24/08/2008 at 11:22:39
As a professional engineer with years of experience I can assure you I have more than a "vague" idea regarding real options. I demonstrated at least one option in scale drawings (hardly vague utterances on here) that incidentally feeds and is indeed fed from several equally viable avenues of redevelopment options that are not shown there. None of which require the leap of faith in "trust the lies", the "end justifies the means" that you have continually attempted to legitimise on here.
The problem you have is that you have found a solution (DK) and you (and the club before you) have meandered all over the place in an attempt to fit that solution to the problem. This is the complete antithesis of good design/decision-making practice where the problem is the starting point not the solution, and is broken down and multiple potential solutions are derived and assessed. There is NO evidence to support that this process has been undertaken. Of course there wouldn’t be, the starting point of this process has been Tesco’s Objectives with us as their enabler to overcome the myriad of planning legislation to place a Hypermarket on a motorway junction alongside a large metropolitan area. At the same time satisfying the other interested parties in developing their own retail interests....... job’s for the boys, old pals act whatever you want to call it. At NO point is Everton’s issues considered other than the provision of 50,000 new seats. Ask any stadium developer what is the first issue regarding a new stadium, and they will tell you in an instant it is LOCATION. Ask them where is the ideal location, and almost without exception they will say edge of centre for basic logistical reasons....... so why are we, in the city with the lowest car ownership in the country (<38%) considering moving to a car dependent site, with ironically next to no on-site car parking and only a fraction of the public transport capacity of the existing site? Nothing vague whatsoever there!!! Please don’t tell me all will be in place and work fine and dandy since that is a dangerously vague assumption that quite frankly defies belief..... I have worked on several tram system design teams (including merseytram line 1 for Kirkby) and other major transport projects, they don’t just appear. They are either planned for or they simply don’t exist. They don’t appear on the transport strategy nor on any of Knowsley’s planning docs, nor will they once they have got what they want...... the shops! Major transport projects are very expensive, and that is what’s required to make Kirkby anything like viable!!
59 Posted 24/08/2008 at 12:07:26
60 Posted 24/08/2008 at 11:42:10
Your stance on Kirkby is just as baffling. For whatever reason you will not budge on your position. Not one iota. In your mind Kirkby is ’the only option’ for Everton FC, what was it someone once said; "There is no other option, there is no plan B." I wonder whatever happened to the man who said that?
Neil, try to make this short mental leap;
’Kirkby is the only option for Bill Kenwright.’
Give it some thought and it may well release you from the strange spell you seem to have fallen under.
Finally Neil, you said in regards to the exclusivity agreement; ’We signed BECAUSE no other partners of the sort you want were forthcoming, not INSTEAD OF.’
If you honestly believe that complete nonsense then you are either very badly misinformed, have some sort of agenda or there really is no hope of you escaping the evil clutches of the cult Kenwright. ;)
61 Posted 24/08/2008 at 12:11:41
The solution can also be far simpler than the one proposed. Additional capacity can be readily provided by extending or renewing the park end. This end of the ground could quite literally house the biggest end stand in the country if required and can be designed to incorporate a long term redevelopment plan for the other sides as and when required. That alone would yield the same capacity as DK and wouldn’t cost £78m especially with enabling on our own patch which would give 100% return as opposed to the fractional return elsewhere. At the same time exec boxes can be added beneath the Top Balcony and/or above/below the upper Bullens, with this upper tier also extended at its rear with only a small land take on this side. This would increase internal concourses and circulation on this side severalfold. LCC planning office are receptive to this option in principle (if you don’t believe me ask them). The result would be a massive reduction in obstructed views due to new roof, greater capacity/atmosphere and more and better positioned exec provision than at DK. ALL at our historic home, with continuity and vastly superior public transport closer to Liverpool’s CBD, mainline and Wirral line train stations. As far as relocating to the Loop. This site is on top of the city centre, and all of its amenities and public transport hubs. It can cope with over 100,000 passengers per hour which dwarfs Kirkby’s 4,000 per hr max. (The definition of "vague" is surely..... how do you fill a 50k stadium with that kind of provision? crush-loading?)
Enabling packages could include a whole range of multi-storey finance generating schemes in this development hotspot as opposed to single-storey only at Kirkby. (of course the credit crunch may now put this back). But as comparison: King’s Dock generated 90% of the stadium costs on a much smaller plot than DK which has realised only a pitiful 22% of the construction costs despite the fanfare. The Loop has far more significant packages around it, and links the city centre with Project Jennifer. The scope is massive, and for the club to have completely ignored this option is negligence!!
According to the Kirkby proposals they envisage a 25% increase in capacity and 300% increase in boxes to meet their immediate requirements. It was stated last year that the stadium would need to operate at mid 40’s average attendances to yield £10m additional revenue. That was at negligible net cost to the club. What is the break-even attendance figure now that the cost has risen to £78m (more if the retail is reduced further)?
"Vague" is what we were sold at the vote. The real "deal of the century" would never need ANY exclusivity agreement to protect it. It would thrive on comparison and would encourage it and grow into our ambition. Does an impending EGM due to growing distrust in in DK, unsigned managerial contracts, the smallest squad in the league reflect a growing acceptance of all that DK entails? I don’t think so.
62 Posted 24/08/2008 at 13:11:32
Thanks for your words of wisdom. I am a shareholding blue and season ticket holder of over 30 years standing. I have missed only 3 home games since Alan Ball was attending other than those while working away. Perhaps I see more value in what we have than you, you may also note that I would also support Kings Dock and the Loop site, so am not against moving per se. However, the benefits to the club (Not Tesco, Not BK, Earl or Green) have to be measured. There is NO evidence of this with KD. I would be interested to know what is rational in moving to a less convenient site if other options are available (They always are). Or what is rational in accepting their rejection without recourse, which is the complete opposite of rationality.
63 Posted 24/08/2008 at 13:21:29
I am zealous about one thing the future of EFC. The current mess on the pitch, the clubs leadership and management fiasco are all entangled with the DK issue, or do you suggest otherwise. I would be delighed for you to articulate how our current predicament is unrelated to the DK. Please as a rational ’normal’ Evertonian enlighten the zealots on both sides?
64 Posted 24/08/2008 at 13:30:42
If you have the odd £200M to invest in a new stadium,I’m sure BB would be more than prepared to let you build it wherever you liked.Or perhaps you would prefer to spend only half of that on re-developing GP-then you could give the balance to Moysey for some players. You might even become chairman and see how you like being defiled by the masses.
I, by any chance you haven’t got the dough,please,please,please give us a break and go back to earning it!
65 Posted 24/08/2008 at 13:40:56
As usual, the put up or shut up brigade can’t argue with the pertinent points I see.
Shoot them down, then tell me to go pay for a new stadium...... if you can!
Count my postings, and compare to some others on here! Then tell me how much I go on.
By the way I only work 3-5 months of the year these days. That earns me enough thanks very much.
66 Posted 24/08/2008 at 13:39:20
quality post mate, you take the time to tell us how your sick to death of people continually posting about DK . . . . . . then put your own two pence worth in.
67 Posted 24/08/2008 at 14:09:52
68 Posted 24/08/2008 at 14:38:28
But the arguments on both sides have been more than fully aired and repeated by now. With thanks to my fellow zealots for the debate I for my part will try to make a new season’s resolution to ’stick to the footie’. Well - at least until something genuinely new happens on the stadium or investment front...
Cheers all! And well done the boys yesterday - especially little Leon and big Joey.
69 Posted 24/08/2008 at 14:35:17
Of course a new stadium elsewhere would be a whole lot more expensive for another reason too...naturally we?d want a "world class" stadium costing in the region of 300m+ wouldnt we? How can we afford that with the soaring price of steel, credit crunch, recession, lack of CL footy et al.....I await the "logical" explanations including the inevitable fantasyland essay from Tom lol!!!! If people want to debate then they have to seriously debate the pertinent fundemental points - not ignore them like what we?re seeing in this comments section.
70 Posted 24/08/2008 at 15:01:03
The tesco collossus worth £53bn has generated what exactly....
The cost of one new cheap stand at a site we can’t get to.
King’s Dock would have yielded a far superior HOK designed stadium for just 10% of its cost..... all without Tesco and their Evertonian boss..... go figure, then learn the meaning of pertinent and fundamental, and apply it to the transport fiasco you completely ignore!!
71 Posted 24/08/2008 at 15:03:11
72 Posted 24/08/2008 at 15:32:27
Cheers for the comments, just countering those still spouting irrelevant points and/or none at all in support of DK. I’m not really after a job, but Trevor Skempton is the guy who should be driving this. This would be a "small" project in his portfolio..... but one that would get a real dedicated and massively experienced champion to get the best option for our future..... not "any dream will do"!
73 Posted 24/08/2008 at 15:58:18
74 Posted 24/08/2008 at 16:12:20
No he’s the guy who can help turn £78m into something worth having, not a white elephant in the sticks that is just an enabler for Tesco, Earl and Green to have something they want..... ie lots of shops in a place they can’t get it without EFC. He’s also the "fantasist dreamer" currently overseeing the biggest city centre redevelopment in Europe that quite frankly dwarfs destination Kirkby many times over!!!
75 Posted 24/08/2008 at 17:40:14