Lost or Losing your Appetite?

I?ve spent a lot of time pondering this over the last day or so, as I?m sure most football fans have, and I find myself in a mightily conflicted position.

My initial gut reaction to the City takeover was similar to when Abramovich bought Chelsea and is echoed in your piece above: what?s the point if you can just buy the title? Where?s the satisfaction if you can have almost instant success just because you can throw a few hundred million at something to achieve it?

Maybe it comes down to personalities ? one person cheats at Monopoly to feed his ego, the other finds the idea a total anathema to what sportsmanship and the thrill of competition is all about. I know I?m very much in the latter camp ? Everton?s achievements in recent years have been so damned satisfying because they?ve been gained by sheer graft, (mostly) superb management and team spirit.

Now, of course, we know that money is no guarantee of anything. Chelsea would have won the title last season and Andrei Schevchenko would have fired them there if it was. So there is no guarantee that City will be able to even persuade all of their Fantasy Football-esque targets to sign for them... although, like Robinho, money will surely talk to many of them.

Then there?s the task of actually gelling a squad of overpaid egos into a title-winning side, something that only Alex Ferguson and Jose Mourinho have been able to do, and Ferguson proved his superb management credentials long ago ? he didn?t need the millions he now has it his disposal to prove it. You can only play 11 men at one time and they?re human after all.

Having said all that, it does seem as though having the far superior resources that the Sky 4 have is enough to secure a monopoly on the Champions League places and I do expect that if things continue in the current vein for Man City they will end up breaking that monopoly within the next two to three seasons purely because of the kinds of quality they can afford.

Now, would I want Everton to be in City?s position? My immediate reaction, in the same way I didn?t want us to be like Chelsea is, no. But you have to ask yourself that if the "big four" has now apparently become the "big five" and could potentially become the big six or seven in short order (once other oil-rich investors cotton on to the new game in town), is the competition in the Premier League increasing in a perverse way, albeit it only at the top and at the expense of the rest and the pyramid system of the domestic game.

Or are we at risk of being left behind forever and truly becoming a mid-table, also-ran club?

And if so, would you want to jump onto the gravy train or do your purist instincts tell you that for the good of the game and Everton?s part in it, it?s best to let the moneybags go off and form the European Super League that, to these eyes, took a massive step closer this week and for the rest of us to start over? Or does the traditional fan just walk away from football altogether?

The traditional fan that Lyndon mentions would do no better than supporting his local park team.
Getting back to the grass roots so to speak can be equally as enjoyable and combative as anything put on at great expence by the Pros.

Both Jonathan and Lyndon?s comments above have been milling around in my head for a while now, even before the City takeover, along with a few other thoughts.

I do have a few additional thoughts such as if the big five becomes 10 will their greed lead them to want a break-away league taking most of the TV money with them and leaving the rest behind?

TV money was supposed to be good for our game - has it been? If it has why are all EPL clubs running such huge defiicts?

How long will it be allowed for clubs to run at such huge deficits? Platini has already said he is not happy with the way things are at the moment - not only in England but across Europe. Will Football adopt the rugby league model of restrictions to try to even out the financial playing field?

How long will TV money continue to be at a level to support the deficits?

Why are the new owners making investments in football clubs, what are their objectives, it cannot surely be solely to buy trophies?

What if the new owners do lose their entuisiasm for their latest toys?

Is football teetering on the brink of disaster? Probably not but there may be some casualties along the way.

"The competition formed as the FA Premier League on 20 February 1992 following the decision of clubs in the Football League First Division to break away from The Football League, which was originally founded in 1888, and take advantage of a lucrative television rights deal."

You might want to read that again.

A European Super League with breakaway clubs across Europe (G14, rich and famous VIP clubs only) will have the same effect to those less fortunate not to be invited. Domestic leagues will surely become ’domestic’. If you look at clubs such as Sheffield Wednesday and Nottingham Forest (twice European Cup Champions), they’ve almost disappeared off the global football radar. They are probably surviving purely on ’local’ support, which sometimes when reading posts on TW it’s what the fans want. Their own local team in Liverpool City. Nothing else matters. We do not want change cos it hurts.

Does NSNO still apply today? Or only in the vicinity of Liverpool City (where incidently another club has 5 European big uns). What’s the meaning of having NSNO emblazed on our jersey? To embarass ourselves whenever we play a top4/5 team?

Another way to look at our situation today is something your average mum taught you as a child: just do the best you can. That’s all that matters.

We are dealt different hands, and in terms of Everton today, honestly speaking, we really are punching above our weight the past few seasons. If money is the measuring yardstick, then we have overachieved, performing admireablely over and above the likes of Spurs and Newcastle. To ’win’ 5th last season was as close to winning the old 1st Division in my book. Similar when we came 4th (truely unbelieveable). DM was LMA Manager of the Year (twice) which speaks for itself. Conversely clubs like Liverpool FC have ’failed’, having not even come close to 2nd in the Premier League.

It wouldn’t be fair to compare ourselves against the megarich, as our expectations are entirely different. To think otherwise is unrealistic and would only subject oneself to disappointment.

We just need to perform to the best of our ability in the current climate. That’s all we can ask for from David Moyes and the lads. COYB

No Jonathan Fogg, money won’t buy you happiness, or love for that matter,

But it will allow your to rent it out season by season and in loves case session by session.

Deep down does it really matter if the success or bosoms for that matter are plastic...well yes it does, some how. Except for the odd saint though, we will over look it.

Were the titles of 62-63 and 69-70, the FA Cup win of ’66 one iota any the less satisfying... Bollocks.

I didn’t hear anybody when Temples Goal went in complaining that Sir John Moores had bankrolled the team / Club and we really didn’t deserve it.

Get real.

My first thought is that originally fan base size ’bought’ the title because those clubs had the most money. WE won it in those days and that was OK?
Then John Moores bought us the title with far superior riches in his day - that was OK?
But now there are 8 richer clubs (at least) the fact that they have richer owners or stadia that support investment in their teams is somehow the death of football??

Mourning the death of sport or sour grapes?

This is the logical conclusion of what we started dozens of years ago and voted for when the premiership started.

What is to be done about it? - EU-wide salary capping and/or a Champions League/UEFA funding revision?

What is fair? Having success attainable in pure footballing terms such as brilliant management or bringing through talented players is the logical answer, but that would destroy the premiership model of the best players bought in from anywhere. Is it worth killing the golden goose when it provides the best for us to watch and is actually increasing competition at the top level gradually? Ending it now would surely send those clubs into their own league and massive funding reduction for the rest of us.
We are left with trying to control the beast and praying for rich investors - Kirkby (or groundshare) here we must go!

I lost interest in the wider world of football many years ago simply because it has sold out. And that goes for a number of sports.
Everton are a team who do it the hard way, with honest players and no cheats. If we could vomit £32m on one player I would be disgusted.
These billionaires will make a world league within ten years that’s for sure... I would hope we’re not in it.

Would I want a billionaire? No, just someone who can rebuild Goodison and give Davey what he wants... it is 11 against 11 after all.

But with football selling out, the champions league has brought more and more games to the bigger clubs. Where as each team once needed 17 or 18 talented players, now the top teams have 30.

Like in society, football is becoming a place for the Haves to take advantage of the Have Nots.
The only way this could be sorted is if the CL reverted to the EC. One nation, one team. But bang goes the money... so it will never happen.

Just how does football in general bridge this G A P ?

Tricky one this. Where do you separate often inexplicable emotional attachment a fan has with his football club from an old-world, Corinthian attitude of "fair play" and a "level playing field"?

The Premier League, the other three major leagues, consist of PROFESSIONAL football clubs. That even extends to many non-league clubs. As in the corporate world, each and every club strives to be the best - to climb as many rungs of the ladder as they can.

It is only in very, VERY recent years that an elite in the PL has effectively claimed a monopoly at the very top of the league. How did they achieve that? Chelsea, I would argue, just lucked out. In the very season Abramovich jumped on board, the Leeds collapse commenced. It could - maybe even SHOULD - have been Chelsea.

The other three, like it or not, had history, success and - perhaps more importantly - were very well managed and run. It was a natural progression that such well-run organizations were in prime position to take full advantage of outside investment (Manure and the ’poo), or build on their existing solid structure (Arsenal).

Everybody else since has been playing catch up. And lest we forget, Everton was one of the main instigators of the breakaway Premier League at the time. Philip Carter was Chairman of the old Football League at the time and when it was discovered what he was secretly negotiating, the bulk of the league clubs turned against him and he lost his post.

Part of me takes pleasure in the bloody noses that David Moyes and his shoestring teams have induced against all the odds. Another part of me strongly desires to see Silverware at the club again. Increasingly - all the more so with the City takeover - the latter can only be achieved if the club can generate greater income streams than it currently does.

That means the stadium issue has to be resolved asap. That means we don’t need a new investor as such, but we do need a rich benefactor (a lá Abramovich or at City...) who isn’t concerned with ROI, but simply wants to come along for the ride for the Kudos. I would suggest there ain’t that many such people in this world...

From what I’ve read this morning from last night’s EGM, Robert Elstone makes a compelling argument which has been lacking from the club for many months.

I will follow Everton to my dying day, whatever league they play in, however successful or dire they are. But I am also ambitious for my club. As I mentioned at the top of my piece, Everton FC is a PROFESSIONAL football club. There are countless posts on here decrying the poor management and lack of professionalism and client care the club offers. You can’t have it both ways. Either you want to turn up and enjoy your football in some quaint 1950s idealised fug every Saturday, or you genuinely want the club to compete at the very, very top.

As Elstone argued last night, we are potentially at a very, very dangerous crossroads in the history of the club. It’s very existence and future success or failure may depend on it.

Art: ’The Premier League, (and) the other three major leagues...’

Spain Italy and... I’ve never figured that one. France or Germany?

Art Greeth wrote "As Elstone argued last night, we are potentially at a very, very dangerous crossroads in the history of the club. It?s very existence and future success or failure may depend on it."
Does anyone feel that Robert Elstone may not be the man to lead us through this crucial time ? To quote the official website "In his time at Everton Robert has introduced a number of key organisational and structural developments that have led to improved financial performance, greater stability in the business and a strong, empowered Management team. Robert?s also been responsible for substantial commercial progress in retail, sponsorship ? the Club?s record Chang deal, and ticketing and is now leading the Club?s search for a Stadium Naming partner".
So if he’s been so successful then why are we struggling with our finances ? Perhaps someone in charge can explain how "improved financial performance, greater stability in the business and a strong, empowered Management team" has helped us recently ?

Nick... I was referring strictly to the three UK leagues - Championship, League One and Two, as they are now known. That’s why in the next sentence I referred to non-league clubs...

I just feel sick of the whole thing. I hate that, because it is the game I love and Everton mean so much to me.
I just feel cheated, sold down the river - NOT by Bill, who I honestly believe is as frustrated as the rest of us and not by our manager.
We HAVE punched above our weight and I’m proud of that. I would hate to be a Chelsea or Man City - they are just toys for rich men. Anyone who thinks that a billionaire would do us any good in the long run, is deluded.
Good article. It’s sad but it’s also good to know that not every football fan is a loony who thinks a pile of money will fix everything. Was it the ’Godfather’ where the guy said something like..."He pulls a knife, you pull a gun, he puts one of yours in the hospital, you put two of his in the morgue..." There will always be a bigger fish and from that point of view I hope we keep scrapping and taking points from the have it all clubs.
I don’t want to be like them.

I don’t know why I support Everton, but I started going to Goodison in the mid-sixties. I haven’t checked the tables , but I remember after a good season the mood was that we could do better next year. We won the league in 1970 and decline followed rapidly.
Success in the eighties,unexpected,exciting, emotional. Again decline and a long period of stagnation before the Moyes era.
Now the anticipation has gone. Great teams have dominated football before,Spurs in the early sixties for instance, but they didn’t win year after year.There was always the possibility,however remote, that your team could do something. Saturday was something to look forward to.
I think that has gone, unless you support one of the Sky4.
I have enjoyed the tension and excitement of a league and cup double by former "also rans" -watching my son’s youth team. It’s cheaper too.

I have to say I totally agree with Dick Fearons sentiments, I am still in my twenties and recently gave up my season ticket to concentrate on whats left of my playing days, and helping out with the youth sides. Everton has started to become second to these things. If you look around football forums, once you get past the so called glory hunters who proclaim their cheaply bought love for their chosen ’big 4’ side, the level of apaty in the average football fan for the professional game seems to be growing with each season

The most sensible article and well balanced comments I’ve come across in all the time of reading and contributing to Toffeeweb. The structure of modern football is totally ruining the game. Evertonians turn on each other and their leaders in spite of almost miraculous achievements against the tide of an oppressive oligarchy. I’m with Dick Fearon, I’ll continue to support the blues but I’m going to concentrate on something far more virtuous - coaching the kids in the local park - it can just as exciting!

Andy..."He pulls a knife, you pull a gun, he puts one of yours in the hospital, you put two of his in the morgue..."

Not The God Father but ironically ’The Untouchables’.

Jonathan, your bang on with your comments, i totally agree. The state of football is ridiculous, its a business game.
We know we can’t win the premiership without a big investor, because all the clubs around us can outbid us and buy the best in the world, while we are left to pick up the scraps. Thats something we cant avoid right now, and after the EGM, i have to admit, i feel sorry for Kenwright inr espect to him not being able to keep up, frustratingly for me though, i want success, but i dont want big money spent, i want acheivement. And in the hayday of the 80’s, that was possible, but now, if we want trophys, we need to sell our arse just like city. Its a shame, the word "sport" in football doesnt mean anything any more, how can sport be all about spending, if thats the case, my Mrs is a damn good sports person.

Years ago before the influx of foreign players and before the premiership...we used to have a punt on winning the league or the FA cup with a chance of being succesful...Sorry to have to say this but when Liverpool won the title regularly it was without vast transfer fees and foreign players...the strange thing is..the manager I most admire in the top 4 is Wenger as he has carved out lots of success while playing top quality football, spending less than the others up there BUT he has virtually a total foreign squad..I just want to be entertained by an EFC side who plays good football and punches above its weight..hopefully soon someone at the top will put a figure on the amount of foreign players that every club can field for a game and put a cap on transfer fees to establish a more level playing field. Liverpools days at the top were far more laudable with home grown talent than Man Utd or Chelsea have achieved with JUST MONEY....Incidently EFC were a better team then and we won the league a few times too !! I can well remember stuffing Man Utd lots of times even when they had Best,Law and Charlton.

Derek Thomas, I was unfortunately never around when these trophies in the sixties where being won, (I’m 25) and I’m sure at the time your joy was never comprimised by Moores’ chequebook. Fair enough. I think when we rationalise it, no sport is completely fair. There will always be clubs/individuals with more resources and therefore an unfair advantage. I accept that. But I think that English football has got to a point now where "traditional fans" are starting to switch off. These are being replaced by new "worldwide" fans. On the whole, it is just too predictable. There are exceptions such as Everton but nobody can deny that it was far more unprecictable in years past. Like Lyndon and many of you have indictated, there has been something perversely satisfying about Everton defying logic and doing so well in recent years. It feels like Everton are battling against everyone and everything. Maybe I’m romanticising slightly but the sad fact is that it could be one the last bits of romance left at the top of the game. What Everton have achieved in recent years is unsustainable in our current financial situation. However the alternative is to become one of the sky 4 or City. I’m not sure I’m comfortable with either scenario. Maybe I’ll feel differently if a billionaire comes along as our "saviour" and we start buying Kaka, Messi, Pirlo etc. Until then, I guess I’ll continue to think the same way.

Good article Mr Fogg and some interesting feedback.

I would like to throw a few points regarding the reasons why the ADUG bought Citeh and not EFC and the importance of investment for our club that we all know we desperately need; if we got a huge investor tomorrow you can bet most blues would be thrilled; I don’t believe anyone who supports EFC wouldn’t. But it’s is risky business and the whole issue needs to be scrutinized carefully.

What the Man City fans don’t realise is that in less than three years time they will be playing their football in Abu Dhabi and Dubai full time in front of crowds of expats and locals who will be watching probably the best players in the world! Lets face it, you can attract all the Robinho’s you want (£160K a week?) but they won’t be that tempted to play in rainy Manchester, but offer them Dubai and thats a different issue.

Man City don’t own Eastlands they just rent it from the council so for the sake of a lease they have no real home or ties in Manchester; besides a fan base. The ABUG own Etihad Airlines, the state owned airline of Abu Dhabi; they fly from Manchester Airport daily to Abu Dhabi. Also one of the best run Airlines in the world. Their new owner Dr Al Fahim is a property developer with investments of over £1B in the UAE; so to build a nice new stadium wouldn’t be no trouble to him. He has also told close associates that Man City will play friendlies in the UAE and possibly Prem games. Imagine the amount of SKY money that will generate!

So although we want to see investment we have to be very careful who with; because as it stands and until the Kirkby debate is over; and if it goes to the wall we could be the next club on our to the sunny shores of the ME if we don’t have a ground option to exercise.

I’m 49; at the start of the 1984-85 we were one of 10 clubs that could have won the league; and that’s the difference; these days we know with absolute certainty that only 4 clubs can win it. How much fun is that?
And when we finish 4th , they change the rules to allow the 5th club to get back in the CL.The attendances are starting to decline and will continue to do so. Supporters are realising they are being fed a lie.
These days, I watch lower league football. At least the results are not arranged in advance.

Money has always ruled football, but I agree it is getting a bit ridiculous because now you have no chance unless you have someone in charge who isnt running it as a business! If clubs were forced to do this then fair enough, teams like Man U with the biggest fanbases would deserve to have an edge but a billionaire with more money than sense is ruining things! The top brass of world football could do something but probably wont, things like wage caps, maximum spending per season etc... They do it in the lower leagues (clubs cannot pay more than 60% of their turnover on wages) so why not the top leagues all over europe?

Each year for me the season arrives a little too early.I get my fix by playing 5 a side each sunday night.This year through no fault of Everton s but probably more sky, I feel myself drawn to Wrexham and Chester ,indeed that is where my money has gone this season so far,Everton will always be my first team but a mixture of dubious decisions last year and sky 4 hype, has indeed diluted my appetite for premiership football. Its not just Everton fans believe me,my 5aside mates include red season ticket holders and they are beginning to feel the same.

Maybe there was never ever a ’level playing field’ with respect to the Football League, and maybe Everton did have the best of it under the Moores stewardship, but we all know it was a damn sight more even than it has been over the last decade or so.

I echo John Orford’s sentiments. Football is not the same because it’s become so bloody predictable where it really counts - The Premier League.

Do any of you remember getting those cardboard league tables in the likes of ’Shoot’ and ’Goal’? Every week I’d love moving the teams up and down the four divisions and it never ceased to amaze me how much the league positions would change as certain teams hit a run of form or went into an unexpected slump. Look at the league tables of yesteryear and look how often so called ’lesser’ teams clearly had a good run at the title whilst the Sky 4 and even us were left in their wake. Whilst the big city clubs on average had the most success, it wasn’t guaranteed (remember the Manure in the 70s/80s). Every team at the start of the season had real hope of getting to the top (even if it would fade after the first month or two).

I’m sick to death of knowing the Sky 4 are practically shoe-ins for the CL spots. If you bust your gut and over-achieve to get a UEFA cup spot, you hardly get any credit for it - and definitely no national kudos - other than the patronising ’best of the rest’ label.

It does a sport no good if one team dominates it for too long. During the RS-domination of Division 1 and the European Cup it was pretty monotonous (and rather drepressing for us!), but they didn’t necessarily buy that success and you still felt at the start of most seasons you might have a chance to wipe the smirks off their faces (as we finally did in the 80s). Having 2 or 3 teams doing the same isn’t much better.

As an exiled Widnes fan, Wigan’s dominance of Rugby League in the 80s/90s made that game much less enjoyable for all supporters of the game, but I wasn’t expecting the isolation my club has suffered in the wake of creation of the Sky Money-driven Super League, and the dominance of a few teams (now led to the Saints) - no matter how hard the play-off system attempts to spread the excitement at the end.

Look, I’ll support Everton whichever league they play in, but I’ve at least tasted enough past success to cherish memories of my club into my dotage. But what about my young son? Have I condemned him to a lifetime of no trophies, glorious failure and probably ultimate isolation following the creation of a true European League, by putting on him that royal blue shirt - while all his mates jump on the success bandwagons of the Sky 4 (or 5?)

I know things will never be the same, and I do think the loadsamoney culture in our game is starting to create an apathy towards it amongst many. Part of me wants us to stay the hard grafting, frugal team of the last few years and take pride in what we are achieving (although just a little more moderate investment would be nice!). However, another part of me is realistic enough to know mega-money is the future and I want Everton to be a part of that change in future decades with some arab shiek(regardless of how removed from my ’jumpers for goalposts’ view of true football it will be).

Don’t know where all that takes the thread - probably nowhere - but I needed to join in with some of the good posts I’ve already read.

One last point, though - and perhaps worthy of a separate thread at some point. Is this fixation with Europe the real problem with our game? At what point did real success for your club change to depend on European rather than domestic glory. When did our domestic league and cups before merely qualifying tournaments? I know these are rather rhetorical questions - as it’s down to bloody TV rights and money again - but am I a luddite in wishing the media’s obsession with Europe would end?

Anyway, back to my Bovril, meat pie, Blue Peter rattle and striped bobble hat...I’ll leave you young whippersnappers to come up with the solution!

A good post and some really good points but as in life everything goes in cycles and this financial whirlwind that is Sky sports led will not last.

Anybody remember the Italian league which was put forward as "The best league in the world" with overpaid prima donnas.

However in any scenario you have to compete.Even though some will claim it is not a level playing field it never is.How can kids with no education become Millionaires.How can a snotty nosed kid become World boxing champion.How often do we hear the best pound for pound fighter expression.So we should not rsign ourselves to being also rans.

Determination and good planning.

In any sucessful operation whether it be business or football you have to look at "Best in class" and see what is making them successful to see what you can learn.

As an earlier poster said the team that really ticks all the boxes for me is not Man U is not Chelsea is certainly not Citteeh or the RS it is Arsenal.

I could watch them every week and not care about winning a trophy although they’ve also succeeded in that.

They remind me so much of the Everton of the sixties and seventies who played beautiful football and knew somewhere along the line they would win a trophy or 2.

So what makes Arsenal so good.

The manager? No doubt about it he is very skilled and no one can doubt his ability but Moyes IMO could be almost as effective with the right backing.

The scouting/development system? There is no doubt in my mind about this contribution to Arsenal success.They have consistently picked players up for relative peanuts and significantly increased their value often selling them for far more than they cost.

I think EFC are doing the right things with development(Finch Farm and several "youth" initiatives)but I feel we are significantly lacking in the scouting network and could do with setting up some networking in foreign leagues.

The board? I also have no doubt that the board of Arsenal are light years above our board and I know many of you will know I am one of the biggest critics of this board not because they dont have any money far from it.

It is because I cansider then to be Lying,deceitful,incompetent dreamers and but for Moyes realtive success on the pitch would have been found out years ago.

That is the one area I would seek immediate change and I disagree we need a billionare owner we just need someone with commercial savvy who tells it how it is.

Now that wont turn us into an all conquering premiership side immediately but it will turn the tide of mismanagement that has been so symbolic of Kenwright’s reign.

There may be less glory in buying a trophy - i agree with that.

But there is infinately more glory in that, than not winning anything at all.

Thanks guys. I actually feel a bit better after reading those comments. Someone said they had not read so much sense on Toffeeweb for a long time and I agree. Makes me feel I?m not alone.
Thanks, Nick for the ?Untouchables? correction. If the name of that film doesn?t say it all, then nothing does.