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1 Posted 07/09/2008 at 14:57:07
2 Posted 07/09/2008 at 14:57:58
Surely they’ve just argued their way out of a move to Kirkby. Do they secretly hope Hazel Blears will save their blushes? If not, I can see this being a disaster of epic proportions.
3 Posted 07/09/2008 at 15:35:00
Some numbers are slightly different in the second one now but the end product is the same - the transport plan is a risk that may not be worth taking.
I am happy to be proven wrong with this piece so if anyone can find faults, please let me know.
4 Posted 07/09/2008 at 15:37:56
5 Posted 07/09/2008 at 15:58:51
6 Posted 07/09/2008 at 16:18:48
I’m under the impression that Merseytram will not be going ahead for the forseeable future however if it were to go ahead I’d imagine that would benefit the stadium because it was planned for Cherryfield Drive with a terminus opposite the existing town centre bus stop.
As I understand it, trains are already at full capacity and I have heard that the rail companies have already stated that there won’t be a major upgrade to the railway station because of the stadium and any upgrade will have to be paid for by the Destination Kirkby developers because it is generally only going to be used to capacity once a fortnight.
There are already plans to build a bus station larger than that in Warrington town centre for fans who are expected to travel by bus and coach. I don’t see another bus station being required. There was a report that the club’s original transport plan required more buses than are available in the area so they change some park and ride sites to park and walk.
New taxi ranks will be arranged if the new stadium is given the green light.
This leaves walking, cycling, and car transportation as the other transport options. Aside from the adding more cycle stands and laying a car park somewhere, there is not much more they can do to make it convenient for existing fans?
Ideally we would be relocating near a readily available public transport hub and not having to pay for our own (the cost is likely to be put onto our match tickets) to make the numbers work.
There’s no problem Michael - I should have triple checked before submitting!
7 Posted 07/09/2008 at 16:18:59
Nice article - I wonder has anyone factored in the effect of shoppers travelling to the retail units at the same time, or is it assumed that for an hour either side of match the shoppers will go elsewhere?
It just strikes me that we are talking of 50,000 fans arriving just before the match, but what about the number of shoppers, I assume that this will be in the order of tens of thousands also?
8 Posted 07/09/2008 at 16:07:44
Unless a site is designed from scratch with no orginal infastructure this will always be an issue. Kirkby was not designed to deal with this problem but niether was Goodison or any other stadium in the country (albeit some will cope better than others).
We can quote all the numbers we want, but in reality fans will not all arrive 15 mins before kick-off, they will arrive gradually through-out the day.
One of Everton’s tactics could be to encourage more fans to travel earlier with an incentive to minimise the peak, this is something they’ve done recenlty at Goodison.
This could be in the form of pre-match entertainment, reduced prices (on tickets or drinks/food), free travel etc.
In Serie A the fans arrive at the stadium 4-5 hours before the game simply because the stadium is open!!!
9 Posted 07/09/2008 at 16:26:41
10 Posted 07/09/2008 at 16:30:42
A good example to cite is that of our opponents for next Sunday Stoke City. Their stadium is in a hideously inaccessible place, with totally insufficient parking, a very difficult walk from bus stops and the rail station. To walk to the venue from the rail station or bus stops you have to walk along a canal towpath! Not the safest method to transport several thousand football fans. I live in the potteries area and am going to attend the game, but it is a bloody struggle to get there. I would suggets implementing adequate transport netoworks would help. To my mind Goodison is as easy to access as most football grounds I have visited. Forward planning grounded in reality is a necessity.
11 Posted 07/09/2008 at 16:23:39
Gerry ’times are-a-changin’ Harding (it is you isn’t it Madden?) You judge the article as ’being poor’ which suggests that you would be prepared to put together one of your own that underlines the positive experience Evertonians would have travelling to Kirkby. Although you never did get around to submitting your ’positive article’ on the removal of Everton to Kirkby. So no holding of breath should be advised.
Finally, Ged. The transport plan may not be ’a vital consideration of the planning process’ in your own strange world but in reality you’ll no doubt be a little upset to find that it is actually just one of the reasons given by the Secretary of State for ’calling in’ the horribly flawed Destination Kirkby planning application.
Or maybe you knew that already?
12 Posted 07/09/2008 at 16:56:31
The whole DK plan is badly thought out in every aspect, this study just highlights the total inadequecy of the transport for matchdays!
13 Posted 07/09/2008 at 16:58:10
Have you ever been to St James Park. City centre, all the transport hubs within walking distance, and major roads in all directions. Wipes the floor with Kirkby and with capacity for over 52k with more planned and accepted. GP works, and has one of the best dispersal rates in the country.
14 Posted 07/09/2008 at 18:05:42
15 Posted 07/09/2008 at 18:22:22
The first time, in an observation they did when Arsenal came to Goodison Park. They stated that 56.1% of Arsenal fans arrived by rail.
and also the following extract:
11.28 It is assumed that those spectators not arriving by coach can easily be accommodated across the other modes. In particular trains, taxi and local buses from Liverpool Central.
16 Posted 07/09/2008 at 19:17:39
17 Posted 07/09/2008 at 19:13:13
And if there are more than 900 away fans on one train into Lime Street, chaos as they all try to get to Kirkby at once, with the home fans (there’s one line only to Kirkby remember - not two plus the option of the Bankhall walk/bus as at present)? And anyone coming in by train from the north will also join the chaos at Sandhills or Kirkdale. How many does an inter city hold - anyone know?
The bove overstaes matters, no doubt, but not by much - yes, some Arsenal fans may be included already in the calculations for those wantiing to use the train, but not ata rate of 56%.
Save money in not implementing the travel plan which results in imposition of a reduced capacity meaning further money can be saved by not having to employ so many match-day staff - GENIUS - let’s do it!! Whaddya mean - we can’t pay the interest payments!
18 Posted 07/09/2008 at 19:14:41
19 Posted 07/09/2008 at 19:54:04
20 Posted 07/09/2008 at 20:15:14
I drive from 250 miles away and I can say for sure that if I have to endure a 45 minute walk to and from my car on top of a 4/5 hour car journey that will deter me attending as often.
Ostriches like Gerry Harding should also realise that whilst some people can arrive earlier before the match ( although not for evening kick offs )AFTER the match everybody wants to make a quick getaway. Either way you look at it, you’ll have weekend shopping traffic at weekend matches to contend with, whilst needing to get some kip before work the next day makes a speedy getaway from midweek games a necessity.
Cycling? Pure fantasy, end of!
Taxis. Being in another Council area means that any Liverpool based taxis ( ones that get a license from LCC as opposed to another council ) are NOT ALLOWED to pick up in another area. This is a national byelaw. So you’ll need a KMBC licensed cab after the game. Are there enough to meet the demand? Unlikely.
Trains. Inadequate capacity end of. Crush loaded on after the game with Away fans? Madness. Imagine how pee’d off either set of fans would be after a bad defeat getting wet waiting for hours and then you have to get on a train crushed together for a 30 minute journey to Lime Street. No thanks. Only away fans will come by car and they’ll soon think again after a 45 minute walk or being clamped in Tesco. Result: only a few away fans, especially fans from down South and lack of revenue and stadium atmosphere.
I don’t care whether we are broke, getting left behind at Goodison, Kirkby is the Deal of the Century ( surely nobody is daft enough to believe that crap now? ), KIRKBY IS WRONG, KIRKBY DOESN’T MEASURE UP!
Shared stadium with LCC assistance is both Clubs’ only realistic new stadium option.
21 Posted 07/09/2008 at 21:12:32
1. Those attendees who live in and around Goodison - how they might change their travel from the current "walk to ground" proportions
Adjust this for those who live in and around Kirkby (a smaller number)
2. Differentiate between cyclists (minimal percent - how many bikes are there chained in close proximity to Goodison now and in any event how many miles are the superfit Blues fans prepared to cycle to get to an Everton game - this is a very small percent) and Motorbikes and pedestrians - 3 different modes of transport altogether.
3. Extrapolate additional taxi journeys.
The proportions now are probably a reasonably accurate estimate but will shoul not be reflected in any change management plan without taking those changes into account.
22 Posted 07/09/2008 at 21:57:53
I see Madden has finally reared his idiot face again - this time as "Gerry Harding"
You can smell the idiot within his first sentence, full of "whinges" and "a-changin?", and it didn?t take the infamous fool to start bleating on about run-down Goodison and of course the obligatory mention of Liverpool FC. I?m just surprised he didn?t throw a scoff or guffaw in.
Madman Madden - rumbled again.
Louis - good piece mate - the transport plan is so amateur and unworkable it?s untrue, but what else would you expect from Kenwright?s regime?
23 Posted 07/09/2008 at 23:02:46
Its not the availability of vehicles - its the availibility of drivers. By bringing a large number of them in to drive in the evening they wont be available the next day until they have had a certtain number of hours rest - thus the bus companies wont be able to man the more profitable rush hour morning routes the day after.
The bus companies wont be interested.
24 Posted 07/09/2008 at 23:44:47
Lets just look at a transport comparison between Goodison & TescoDome:
- The parking is better near Goodsion & always will be (2 mile car restrictions around tescoDome). There are also more back roads near Goodison to ease the traffic.
- More trains near Goodison & trains run in different directions whereas in Kirkby everyone will be going the same way.
- More normal bus services around Goodison than Kirkby
- More people can walk to the ground from surrounding areas
- People can walk to the city centre ? therefore not totally reliant on non-existent buses.
As for the private sector doing more, how many buses do you think there are?
Even if you take the worse case scenario for Goodison, it will still have a better transport plan than Kirkby. Furthermore on the WIP of the transport plan - how long do EFC need to come up with a transport plan that could actually work? You also write ?arnt a vital consideration of the planning process? ? you must be one of the very few to think that utter nonsense.
Furthermore, even if there are enough buses how much more will it cost the fans?
As for Gary Smith and his idea that fans just arrive earlier, well what a genius. I suppose after a night match, they can just sit in the stadium for a couple of hours while the queues die down? That?s really going to attract families to games. My god, some of the no-voters occasionally talk shite, but compared to his logic they?re bleedin Einstiens.
The bottom line is that EFC are in the process of driving away thousands of fans that currently (or recently) have season tickets. These are supposedly going to be replaced by new match goers and, believe it or not, an extra 10-11,000 fans on top of this. This despite the fact that, at the moment, none of these extra fans can be arsed to get season tickets ? park end has season tickets available & no obstructed views (oh, it must be the dogshit that?s puts them off). However, they are suddenly going to want to go to a new stadium where they will pay more for parking & match tickets and then willingly queue for buses for up to 2 hours. It?s pure fantasy!
Well I hope you enjoy yourself in the empty white elephant that will be the final nail in the FEC coffin. Of course, it will be us no-voters who will get the blame ? if only they had supported Kirkby ? well we fucing don?t!
25 Posted 08/09/2008 at 02:05:35
"It is likely LFC will eventually go ahead with Stanley Park even if they have to have another takeover by Arabs, then Stanley Park cant be used."
to dismiss the continued use of GP.
But Gerry, the new Toilet Bowl in Stanley Park will have an initial capacity of 60,000. How do you think those fans are going to get to and from the match?
Can’t attendees at our games at GP use the same modes of transport to get to and from the match?
We could even use the new car park that will be built at the Toilet Bowl.
And yes, ’the times are a changin’ as Bob Dylan said, with older and less efficient transport modes in the 60’s tell me just how did 50,000 plus fans get to GP every couple of weeks? And why can’t it be done now with better transport facilities?
I’ve not even read Louis article yet but it’s easy to drive a bus through your argument, but not a bbus to Kirkby as there’s not enough of them!
26 Posted 08/09/2008 at 08:13:59
The area has worked for years accomodating an average of 40,000 fans each week, does Kirkby have such proven experience? it does not matter where you go in our country you will always have parking problems and only christ knows what awaits us in Kirkby
27 Posted 08/09/2008 at 08:23:45
With regards to transport, Kirkby will be a nightmare. Dispersal after games would be so much harder at Kirkby and I would expect an increase in violence. Could you imagine trying to get those Millwall fans back to the city centre from Kirkby a couple of years ago. The police only managed to keep both sets of fans apart because they could keep the Millwall fans in one group. Even on this relatively short journey the police almost lost control.
One of the tactics the police used was to try and disperse groups of Everton fans. How much more difficult this would be if those same fans had a legitimate excuse ie all walking back to Liverpool together or all going for the train. I feel this aspect has been overlooked. At Goodison you can take a little detour to avoid possible trouble; at Kirkby, it's more or less one way in and one way out.
28 Posted 08/09/2008 at 09:00:37
What alarms me in all this is why so many in the face of overwhelming evidence can turn a blind eye to the risk that Kirkby could be a monumental disaster to Everton FC. The risks mount daily as, revised transport scenarios, reduced capacity probabilities, ever increasing costs for EFC and the flawed financial strategy, illustrate for me the arragance with which Kenwright and his fellow cohorts are prepared to show for the pot at the end of the rainbow. In their blind determination for Destination Kirkby, the genuine need to relocate has been overshadowed by the conceit that is shown to the rightly concerned fanbase. The false promises made at the beginning of this venture clearely illustrate not only their subsequent disregard for an alternate view but a complete lack of business acumin as holes the appear from continued scrutiny.
I for one will admit my mistake if DK turns out to be a success and I put it to the Everton Board to be as forthcoming if it fails to live up to the hype. However, in reality, I would estimate that their humility can never be tested by such a climbdown.
29 Posted 08/09/2008 at 10:44:26
30 Posted 08/09/2008 at 12:52:12
I saw my first game in 1967 and it that time have got to know a LOT of Evertonians.
Not one has ever said "I’ll be bikin’ it to the game, see you in there".
By the way, nice to to see Gerry ’chortle’ Madden back, this time as ’Gerry Harding’.
(don’t be too hard on him - more to be pitied than scolded).
31 Posted 08/09/2008 at 13:51:28
32 Posted 08/09/2008 at 14:31:56
For example, Brian Donnelly says that all the trains will be going the same way. Will they? Away fans won?t need to come via Lime Street - they can come via Wigan. That takes away that problem for starters. And do all fans travel from within Liverpool? I don?t. I always have problems parking, but I like may others find a way around them, and will continue to do so, at GP or anywhere else.
The fact is that whether we stay at GP or move to Kirkby, there are gonna be issues. The article picks up on a major issue, yet it gets used to criticise further a plan which is essential to our survival as a football club. It might not be perfect, but nothing ever is!
33 Posted 08/09/2008 at 17:33:53
Don’t be such a loser, think of all the marketing opportunities Blue and White Bicycle Clips, and we can all wear our new high vis third strip to ensure we dont get mown down on Valley Road or by the Copple House.
Anyway got to go, I need to start spot welding my 5 seater tandem to get me to and from the match.
34 Posted 09/09/2008 at 09:56:22
You write ?Away fans won?t need to come via Lime Street - they can come via Wigan? ? what a load of BOLLOCKS! Only true if we are playing someone like Wigan.
Even the transport expert states ?there?s very low demand? for travelling from Wigan & also ?most of the people will be using the Liverpool line?. Furthermore we are only talking of about 12% of away fans that come by train anyway.
Also looking at the rail network, the Wigan-Kirkby line does not even go through the mainline station and you have to get a train from Wigan N.W. to Wigan Wallgate and then change again to get a Kirkby train. Most away fans will not be fucking around changing onto local trains left right & centre. They usually want to have a drink in the centre (not Wigan or Kirkby) and then make their way to the ground.
People keep writing that Kirkby is effectively part of Liverpool, so where do you think away supporters are going to get the train to? Having arrived at Lime St they wouldn?t expect the ground to be 7 or 8 miles away from the centre with few transport options (mainly trying to get back to Lime St), but that?s the fatal flaw in DK!
35 Posted 09/09/2008 at 09:41:21
To expect fans to walk 45 mins after sitting in traffic jams for god knows how long is ludicrous. We?re pressing forward with this ground move with our eyes wide shut. Unless better transport plans can be drawn up (and please don?t ask me to provide the solution, that?s what people at the club are paid very well for) we need to look elsewhere for a new ground, or simply stay put for now.
36 Posted 09/09/2008 at 13:30:42
37 Posted 09/09/2008 at 15:55:00
I suggest you read the Transport Plan, and then come back.
Pretty everything you have said above is pure bollocks. Catch a bus? There are no buses.
You are not going to be able to park anywhere near it - it might as well not exist from the point of view of the stadium.
As for a 12 lane M57, it seems to exist only in your eyes. Perhaps in the planet you are on, 3 + 3 does equal 12.
With arithmetic like that, maybe you should work for the transport consultants!
38 Posted 09/09/2008 at 17:18:56
The usual crap from you.
Since when has Goodison had a 2-mile zone around it? It takes me less than 15 mins to get to my car, walking normally and it costs nothing - there are also plenty of spare parking spaces. Also there are plenty of side streets to avoid the traffic on the way back home. So what are you on about?
Motorways are great when you are actually on them, what about the bottleneck to get on them. Not to mention the lack of roads in & out of Kirkby. Furthermore in Kirkby, once you go East or South you are soon in the countryside - you are not going to find much parking in country lanes.
As for the buses, most people will either be walking miles to their cars or having to get the bus ? that?s the whole problem in a nutshell. You may not have noticed but at the moment we don?t need a park & ride scheme because people can park & walk!
39 Posted 09/09/2008 at 20:45:38
40 Posted 10/09/2008 at 11:15:27
41 Posted 10/09/2008 at 13:24:37
42 Posted 10/09/2008 at 15:05:42
Buy a map you tight bastard!
Just a clue to get you started - the atmosphere?s the same as Anfield.
43 Posted 10/09/2008 at 15:24:17
You miss out the fact that Goodison is only just over 2 miles from the city centre, where the transport infrastructure is fantastic.
The further out you go the more people will need to rely on either a car or public transport to get there ? and the less public transport there is. Even if you could park in Kirkby (and that?s doubtful) there are insufficient roads to get out - it?s just a bottleneck. Whereas around the Goodison area there are plenty of back roads to help ease the congestion.
44 Posted 11/09/2008 at 11:23:15
45 Posted 11/09/2008 at 17:58:06
Thanks for your clarification.
It must have been where you wrote "The stadium is just half a mile (and 2 mile M58) from a 12-lane Motorway (M57) that will release traffic quicker than what we get presently" that confused me.
You need to get you head out of the sand, or at least from Bill Kenwright's backside.
46 Posted 12/09/2008 at 11:07:50
The emotion apart, the weight of argument seems to be so dramatically one-sided as to raise a very simple question : If this is indeed a total and complete travel planning disaster then surely the fast approaching enquiry will find it impossible to ignore the issue ? If these postings are anything to go by then it will be impossible to get to and from the stadium safely and without spending many hours trying to get in or away from the ground ? If true then no disabled supporters will ever be able to attend a game again ? If true then the resulting gridlock will make getting away from Fulham, West Ham, Arsenal, Boro, Sunderland, Stoke, Bolton, Villa, Birmingham, etc an absolute breeze.
The hint here is in that "if true" bit......
On the face of it Louis’s article is hard to argue with. I am tempted by the comparisons to the current and future transport/parking/access issues at GP. I see they have been rubbished here but that is simply nonsense. Getting to, parking, and/or getting away from GP is currently quite difficult but I guess manageable, for the majority. Its hard to understand how the RS building their cycle stadium on a massive car park is NOT going to have a massive impact ?
The truth, whatever that is, will probably lay somewhere in the middle of the debate ie the transport issues around DK will be serious and the overwhelming weight of the analysis suggests that the public enquiry will focus on this aspect of the Application. But whether it be rebuilding GP which frankly seems impossible despite all the KEOIC arguments, or whether it be relocating in the city, I find it very hard to understand what site exists where transport will not be a major issue ?
What I do though feel is that Louis’s article & the general debates about the transport problems, are more detailed, and more persuasive than anything else in the public domain at present, and that is something the club have to address if there truly is another side to what is fast becoming a showstopper argument ?
47 Posted 12/09/2008 at 11:47:49
Although you replied with a message of personal abuse towards me, I am still intrigued as to where is free parking within a 15-minute non-brisk walk of GP, bearing in mind it take at least 15 minutes to walk to the Black Horse on County Rd at a very reasonable stride. Walking towards Liverpool CC, I am also not aware of substantial "free parking" either, within a 15-minute non-brisk walk.
48 Posted 12/09/2008 at 12:46:23
I have no intention of telling you anything else. If you think that what I wrote was personal abuse then the last thing I want is such a sensitive person parking anywhere near me!
49 Posted 12/09/2008 at 15:04:18
Also looking at the rail network, the Wigan-Kirkby line does not even go through the mainline station and you have to get a train from Wigan N.W. to Wigan Wallgate and then change again to get a Kirkby train.
Wigan Wallgate Station is next to Wigan North West. You walk about 100 yards. You do not have to get a train.
50 Posted 12/09/2008 at 15:48:44
51 Posted 12/09/2008 at 19:37:17
How the hell is anyone, except for people living in Wigan or people who have travelled on the actual line, going to know that Wigan Wallgate is 100 yds away from Wigan NW? The rail enquiries system says you get a train ? not you walk 100 yds in God knows what direction.
The whole point is that away supporters travelling by train to watch Everton versus whoever would, in the vast majority of cases, go into Liverpool LimeStreet & expect to be able to get to & from the ground in a reasonable amount of time, in a safe & hassle free manner ? as you can to virtually every other ground in the country.
52 Posted 14/09/2008 at 08:21:30
53 Posted 14/09/2008 at 10:09:22
A point regarding the Wigan Wallgate-Kirkby line. Because the route travels through three administrative authorities (Merseyside, Lancashire & Greater Manchester), it receives minimum financial support, with an hourly 2-car service, no evening trains and no Sunday service. Virtually useless for the proposed stadium.
54 Posted 15/09/2008 at 18:56:22
Try the Westminster Rd side of the ground. Usually plenty of spaces around this area, and really quick to get away from. Not telling you my mate?s precise speck though he?d kill me for divulging as he bags it every match..... cost nowt too.