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Give a Good Man a Break

By Alan Kirwin :  30/09/2008 :  Comments (88) :
I just read a piece by Mike Parry (Talksport) responding to the increasingly personal and, in my view, totally misguided abuse directed at Bill Kenwright.

It is patently clear that there are problems at EFC. To place them all at the feet of Kenwright is ignorant and rather sad. Those who do so clearly have very short memories. I know fans are fickle, but some are just thick.

It is incontestable that, as a club, we have progressed since Kenwright took over. It is a ridiculous simplicity to say he has benefitted from the good fortune of having Moyes as manager. Moyes has achieved some great things, he's also made some major screw ups and has equally been lucky (e.g. the 4th place in 2005 owed rather a lot to fortune, but that's another story).

Moyes was equally lucky the season before in 2004 when we plummeted from mid-table mediocrity to within a point of relegation. It was shocking (remember the 5-0 at Man City). But Kenwright stuck with Moyes when many (most) chairmen would have dumped him. Whatever we think right now, that has proved to be an excellent decision.

And then there's the support that Kenwright has given Moyes in the transfer market. Sure, we've collected a few jewels at silly prices (Cahill, Lescott, Howard) but we've also spent big (for us) out of all proportion to what we've previously done.

In the absence of large gates, worldwide marketing, CL involvement and billionaire input, most of this has been a massive credit to Bill Kenwright. Everyone who knows Bill Kenwright is effusive in their regard and affection for the guy. He is a good man and the idea that he exists on a diet of lies and greed is so misguided drivel as to barely warrant a response.

He has put heart and soul into our club. If there is one area where I believe we have failed big time it is undoubtedly on the commercial side. The lack of presence in Liverpool, the unavailability of merchandise ? even within the shops of our designated partner ? are shocking endightments. But Kenwright doesn't RUN the cub, he is a non-executive chairman (I presume some fans know the difference). The club is run by it's CEO (or acting CEO, as is now the case).

Bill Kenwright is an active, hugely successful and universally admired impressario with productions all over the world. It's his passion, along with EFC. He does well, but he's not Abramovic.

The criticism about the club not being open or communicative with fans has some merit. But again that's not down to Kenwright. When he has had the chance, he has been more open than any club owner I can think of. Telling Wyness that he had no option but to offer a vote on the stadium move (who else does that?), and the recent EGM which attracted the usual flack was actually about as open, honest and informative an EGM as has probably ever taken place. I have been in a few (I'm guessing most fans haven't) and I'm afraid this was candid by any measurement.

Given all the parameters, including our recent history (until Kenwright took over it has been fairly abysmal from 1971 - 2002 (excluding 1984 - 87), given our resources, our stadium, our lack of success, our misfortune (Heysel) I think the way Kenwright is being treated is disgusting. It shames Evertonians and reflects a misguided utopia that exists within many fans that we are somehow entitled to THE BEST just because it says it on a badge. Bollocks.

By any objective measurement, and by that I mean those with no axe to grind in just about every national newspaper, Kenwright has over-achieved. There have been countless column inches given over in the quality press and the tabloids to the relative success of Everton given the gap in resources and income compared to the big 3 and dark side.

But fans aren't objective are we? It's all visceral. If we win 3 on the trot then God's an Evertonian and the world is a royal blue paradise. Lose 3 on the trot and Kenwright is a c*nt who knows nothing about business (patently absurd) or football (unlike us fans, yeah?).

Kenwright delivered David Moyes. He took a chance and it was, overall, an excellent decision. In fact it was a brilliant decision because he brought hunger and a desire to succeed, in comparison to Walter or those of his ilk who have lost their desire. Everton have been in the top six 3 times in 4 years because of Kenwright and Moyes, not solely beause of Moyes.

Kenwright saved the soul of this club following the anarchy and nonsense of the Johnson years. It's a thankless task that only a true fan could endure. One twist of fate in 2005 and we would have been in the Champions League. The team that beat us (unfairly) reached the semis. On such knife-edges are reputations made and lost (Heysel was another).

None of us wants to be where we are now. We are stuck in a big hole, with a modest debt compared to other "big" clubs, but big enough for us. We have no scope for investment, our ground is shite, our ability to freshen up the club is being held back by this impasse. I didn't and don't want to move to Kirkby, it breaks with tradition and (as some astute fans have observed) doesn't particularly lend itself to walk-up fans, other events, hospitality or even to architecture.

BUT, as things stand, it represents the only viable option for a new stadium. We have now lost years on this topic due to lack of sites and lack of money. Kenwright does not WANT to take Everton to Kirkby, he needs to.

And I keep seeing this rhetorical question about why Newcastle can have several buyers lining up while we can't find one. That's still to be proven, but the stadium issue is most definitely a major obstacle as no investor would buy a club in the knowledge that he/she had to fork out another £250m for a stadium to support their objectives. That makes the cost of Everton way in excess of what is palatable to anyone with lots of money and half a brain. And please don't forget the crisis that is fucking up the world's commercial life right now, i.e. dozey bankers. Right now we have nowhere to go except Kirkby, and that's assuming Kirkby is still an option.

Some of you will be familiar with the maxim of "be careful what you wish for". It's clear that some Evertonians need a rude awakening to acquaint themselves with this concept. The day might arrive, and sooner than we all think, when you just wish we'd done the Kirkby thing when we had the chance, and that we hadn't been so abusive to Kenwright that he threw in his chips and sold out to highest bidder who didn't give a shit who we are and bought in a team of ageing overweight ex-galacticos to massage his ego.

Everton needed Bill Kenwright more than Bill Kenwright needed Everton. The mindless fools who insult this particular chairman are way off course. We do not have a divine right to anything.

As for Moyes... I think this will be his last season. Nobody knows what's going on but Kenwright has been candid and clear about our financial position with Moyes and with the fans (I watched the EGM in full). Moyes appears to be playing brinksmanship, but in doing so his personal stock is falling as fast as the Dow Jones and our team is all over the place.

He has taken his eye off the ball big time and this season is almost over before it's even begun. Moyes has taken us as far as he can. Pity Mark Hughes has already moved from Blackburn. Moyes has messed up here and wasted a great opportunity and all his brownie points. Slaven Bilic is the man.

Reader Comments

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Anthony Jaras
1   Posted 30/09/2008 at 21:47:17

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Good post, I like your way of thinking.
Honest, informative yet realistic.
Richard Dodd
2   Posted 30/09/2008 at 21:42:29

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A very good piece, Alan, but so sorry you felt the need to curry favour in the final paras by slagging off Our Davey. Bill and Davey are a team, you know. They sing from the same hymn-sheet, thank God!
Rich Jones
3   Posted 30/09/2008 at 21:53:38

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Bill Kenwright couldn't keep a rabbit going with lettuce!!! I think there are some people who have very good memories, Alan ? that's the problem: NTL, Kings Dock, Samuelson etc... this is where your argument falls down.

Was the twist of fate Moyes having to make do with Kilbane at left back? how's about the countless transfer windows when we've sold when we should've been strengthening? You're right though, Alan, a large section of our support is plain thick and your piece shows that.

Kevin Sparke
4   Posted 30/09/2008 at 22:15:05

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Slaven Bilic is a mercenary wide-boy who has already fucked Everton over royally in the past when he was a player.

I wouldn?t let him manage an Echo stand on County Road, never mind Everton.
Gavin Ramejkis
5   Posted 30/09/2008 at 22:24:25

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Have you ever listened to Mike Parry on Talksport? If he was any further up BK?s arse he would be coming out of his mouth.

As far as BK not deserving any stick then what planet do you live on?
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
6   Posted 30/09/2008 at 21:37:46

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Not sure if I know where to start here, Alan. Suffice to say I disagree with how you give Kenwright most of the credit where it actually belongs to Moyes and let the Chairman off the hook for the failures by saying he "doesn’t run the club."

Sounds to me like you’ve fallen for the artistry of a seasoned bullshitter who likes to play the "I’m only a fan" card to the regular punters but then talks like the all-knowing main man at the EGM.

You laud Kenwright for appointing and retaining Moyes and then disregard the manager’s role in the relative successes of the past few seasons saying that it was equally down to the chairman.

It’s widely believed that the only reason why Everton have "punched above their weight" recently is down to Moyes’s management. It stands to reason that his team is over-achieving with an inferior squad to many of its top-10 rivals because the chairman hasn’t been able to provide him with adequate funds.

Those he has secured have been borrowed from his friend Sir Philip Green or come from selling and mortgaging off the Club’s last remaining assets to the point where there is nothing left. No more options. One bad season (and this could be it) and the Club could potentially be on its knees and needing to sell our most prized players.

The clincher for me is Kirkby. We have nowhere to go but Kirkby because Bill Kenwright cannot deliver anything better and Bill Kenwright has obviously decided that no one is fit to run the club but him. No "true Blue" Everton chairman worthy of the praise you heap upon him would continue with this Destination Kirkby death sentence while there were potential buyers out there. And while I agree that we should be careful what we wish for, short of a new owner moving the Club even further afield to another city, I’m struggling to think of much worse that an unscrupulous new owner could do to EFC than uprooting to a sub-standard stadium on a supermarket car park.
John Andrews
7   Posted 30/09/2008 at 22:20:45

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First and foremost, Kenwright did not deliver Moyes: Moyes was recommended by Walter Smith and Kenwright thought he may be getting a cheapie so appointed Moyes.

Secondly, Mike Parry is an idiot. He is one of the reasons I no longer bother to listen to Talksport. The man is a buffoon. Also, as stated in one of the posts in the Echo, has anybody considered the amount of freebies that Parry gets? When was the last time he paid for a ticket?

All would be considerably better if Kenwright kept his mouth firmly shut. Except to perhaps inform the fans as to what the hell is going on. The interview on Sky Sports was/is a perfect example. What about all this "Watch this space" rubbish.

As also stated by rich NTL, Kings Dock, where the money was "Ringfenced", the Fortress Sports Fund, the list goes on. And the thing that scares me most: that Kenwright will still wangle his way on to the Board even after selling the club. That is my worst nightmare!

And finally there is an option to Kirkby: it is to redevelop Goodison Park. I think that also in one of the posts in the Echo somebody mentioned Man U, Villa and Newcastle as teams who had managed to refurbish their grounds. This could/should have been done at Goodison. But unfortunately short-termism took over and nothing was done.

I truly believe that ever since Kenwright took over the whole plan has been based on the short-term. And for this the fans and the club are now suffering.

ps: Walter Smith has lost so much desire that his club are now top of the SPL. Oops !

John Patrick McFarlane
8   Posted 30/09/2008 at 22:56:35

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BK’s main problem is that he is a gambler and when he realised that he had no cards left to play decided he wanted out of the game.

But like those ’short seller’ city types he wants to gamble with other peoples money.

It is only in recent months that he has realised that to maintain any progress he needs real money , not favours from friends.

He has 40,000 potential friends but he, like you, disregards the level of intelligence that they possess.

Many of those 40,000 people have in a variety of ways tried to cajole and persuade him that we have been travelling down the wrong path.

Only now when there are few if any options available , does he decide to inform us that the only option is Kirkby.

In that case why have a ballot? It served no other purpose than to clear his conscience.

Other clubs have maintained a progressive level of development over the past 10 years without having the attributes that you cite. Indeed many of those clubs have not had the ’luxury’ of a continued run in the PL or the level of attendances that EFC have enjoyed.

No Evertonian demands that the club should be overstretched in order to achieve unrealistic goals, however, the fans are right to demand that we have a team that is capable of taking on most of our competitors with at least a chance of winning.

The problems with the team reflect the problem with the Chairman , namely that it is more important not to lose than it is to win.

Kenwright should be applauded on appointing David Moyes, however, it would seem that DM has become so embroilled in the financial side of the club , that he too has forgotten that most of the 40,000 people come to watch a game of football.

Would any manager want the owner calling them umpteen times a day? I know I wouldn’t
His players should be allowed to play the game for which they are paid , the Manager to train the team and the owner to ensure that the club is run properly.

At the moment none of these functions would appear to be working.

Also if the owner states that he doesn’t want to around in 12 months time , what does that say to the Manager and his players?

Evertonians may not number many rocket scientists , but I do believe that we have greater intelligence than some people would afford us.

John Martin
9   Posted 30/09/2008 at 23:37:30

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Last week Parry informed everybody how Everton would be top if they hadnt conceded any goals this year!!!! Genius.
Alan kirwin
10   Posted 30/09/2008 at 22:50:41

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Kevin: My Slaven Bilic remark was just throw away. But "mercenary wide boy"? You are aware that he has turned down job opportunities of over £2m per year to remain with Croatia on £85k per year and play in his rock band. He may not be everyone’s choice, but unless they’ve changed the definition of mercenary, me thinks not.

Gavin: Parry admits in his article that hey are friends. Is that a problem for you that there are people who support Bill Kenwright? Parry knows Kenwright and you don’t. Who is more qualified to comment? I don’t know the equivalent of "up his arse" for someone who despises someone, but hey, it’s a free world. I don’t listen to Talksport, I’m a 5-live man myself.

Lyndon: I acknowledge some of the logic behind what you say, and disagree 100% with other aspects of it. You clearly have a major downer on Kenwright. You’re entitled to your opinion. I regard it as misguided given all the facts.

I haven’t fallen for artistry or anything else that Kenwright has said. I see and hear what others do, but I also hear from people that know the man 100 times better than you or I or anyone else who posts on here. I am also a fair-minded individual and, I believe, a reasonably astute one.

Some of your arguments don’t stand up. It is technically correct (or so we believe) to say that the chairman hasn’t provided Moyes with the funds that Moyes wanted. But what exactly is Kenwright supposed to do here? The club operates on the edge of its financial capabilities, that was the crystal clear message from the EGM.

Kenwright can’t magic funds out of nothing, and the fact that he has used the advice (or even guarantees, if that is indeed true) of Philip Green or Robert Earl is not something to be sneered at. If he doesn’t have the personal millions to contribute (and why should he?) then please explain what exactly is wrong with using his network & influence to enable our club to acquire better players to strengthen the team (as Moyes, and the fans, asks for).

You credit me with accusations that I haven’t made. At no point in my argument did I disregard Moyes’ role in our achievements. All I said is that Kenwright also played a role. Under Moyes we finished 17th, lest you forget. Under Moyes we set the official worst ever start to a premier league season, 7 defeats in 8 games, 1 goal in 8 games and that was a break-away & only attack at Bolton. Under Moyes we have, at times, played park football. But of course, under Moyes we have also made great strides in our overall league standing. Moyes always (until recently) paid tribute to Kenwright. He was right to do so.

I am lost for a response to your accusations about Kirkby, "...because Kenwright cannot deliver anything better...". This we know. So what? He has opened the book to the fans, he has gone way beyond what any club (i.e. private company) would do in explaining the difficulties in operating effectively as a business AND satisfying the desires of a manager AND of fans. Kirkby may be the clincher for you and others prone to utopian expectations and visceral, rather than logical and reasonable, retort. For many others, myself included, Kirkby is simply the reality of our situation that many still fail to comprehend. It may be a sad reality, and YES, I would almost trade a testacle for a stadium at Kings Dock, but Kirkby is where we are currently at.

As for one bad season, well we’ve had them already under Moyes and the chairman stuck with him. I understand, to some extent, the sense of frustration that you clearly feel, as do others. I am no apologist for Bill Kenwright. I am a total Evertonian who wants nothing but the best for my club. I have loved my club since I was 4 years old. It means an enormous amount to me. But equally I haven’t lost my sense of proportion and humanity and I am fair in my assessments. The abuse that is levelled at Kenwright is disgusting and misguided. There is no opinion or argument I can hear that changes that. He has tried his best and continues to do so.

One last point, on this "I’m only a fan" & "big knowing man" stuff. I had a minor personal dealing with Bill Kenwright in the recent past. I wrote to him to request the opportunity to undertake a personal project about Goodison and the people who make it what it is (I’m a photographer). It is a homage to my little brother who died tragically (diabetes) and was a massive Evertonian. Bill Kenwright surprised me by calling me personally the day after I posted the letter, we had a very long chat (about Everton, Goodison, my brother and me) he invited me in to see him and offered me free reign to do the project (it requires 18 months effort behind the scenes). It stands to raise up to £1m for charity through a limited edition book, to be split between Diabetes UK and the Everton ex players fund. It’s a human touch that impressed me a lot. It was all about Everton and it was all about an Evertonian. I think that was because he is all about Everton and he is an Evertonian. He does not deserve the crap that is levelled at him. Maybe he’s made mistakes, but I for one do not doubt his motives and neither does anyone who actually KNOWS the man.
Frank McGregor
11   Posted 30/09/2008 at 23:46:12

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An excellent post. As you say, "you may get what you wish for". Bill Kenwright sells up to Mike Ashley and then bring in Sam Allardyce.
Alan Kirwin
12   Posted 30/09/2008 at 23:46:52

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John Andrews, Your Walter Smith comment was interesting. Please tell us where you rank Walter?s period at Goodison. Also, do you think that Moyes was the only candidate for the vacancy? and that Walter?s recommendation carried particular weight?

No, perhaps you?re right. Kenwright deserves no credit whatsoever for appointing Moyes. It was all down to the blessed Walter and the need to save money. Sad.

As for re-developing Goodison, I can only assume you?re not aware of the issues surrounding that "solution". Only two real issues to be fair. One is cost, the other is space & time.

Have you ever visited Man Utd, Villa or Newcastle? I have and there are significant differences in available land, not to mention the costs of doing so. Man Utd re-built Old Trafford over a long time and from a massive fan & membership base, huge sponsorship deals and Champions League & TV revenue. Man Utd now has £700m of debt and pays (or rather the fans pay) £81m per year in interest alone (more than Everton?s income). Newcastle were over £100m in debt, are a total shambles and treat their fans with contempt.
Rich Jones
13   Posted 01/10/2008 at 00:23:37

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Alan you're dead right, we mustn't forget Kirkby is effectively free!!!
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
14   Posted 01/10/2008 at 00:53:42

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Alan, your responses to mine and others’ comments have been eloquent and do you great credit.

I’m prepared to admit that my own reply was a little flippant and betrayed no small measure of frustration with Bill with whom my biggest beef is not what he has done for the club but the misrepresentations, half-truths and misleading statements that continue to come from the club under his stewardship, mostly to do with Kirkby and more recently regarding incoming players.
John Andrews
15   Posted 01/10/2008 at 00:22:42

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Alan, Walter Smith was a disaster at Everton. Of that there can be no doubt. But he was also dealing with Agent Johnson so that MAY be a reason for it. I was implying that Kenwright MAY have thought that Moyes would come on the cheap. And to my uncertain knowledge he did initially.

To my uncertain knowledge Old Trafford, TOD, call it what you will, used to hold about 45,000 it now holds 75,000. It was modified a bit at a time. I believe the Stretford End was closed for a period of time but for how long I don?t know. St James? Park, I believe, is on a very similar footprint to Goodison. Again they have increased the capacity by at least 15,000. Villa Park again was done a bit at a time and I cannot remember any sort of closure there. But I may be wrong.

I don?t doubt Man Utd's debt and I don?t doubt the fans are paying it BUT they are getting value for money and unfortunately the same cannot be said for the fans of Everton Football Club. Newcastle Utd are a total shambles and do treat their fans with contempt but you should also remember that after the last EGM the rules were suddenly changed. Now it is not possible to call an EGM unless there is a major upheaval at the club. Contemptuous... nah!

What I was attempting to express was that ever since Kenwright took over everything seems to have been done on a short term basis. No long term plans whatsoever. No plans for refurbishing Goodison. None whatsoever.

The point I was trying to make, obviously not clearly enough, was that we could have done the same. Even a bit at a time if necessary. But we had no intention of doing so due to the possibility of Kings Dock. Remember that? That was when Kenwright assured all and sundry that the money was "Ringfenced". HaHaHa!

That was also when he was keen to get rid of Paul Gregg who, amazingly, was prepared to put up the money for the project. But Kenwright was not prepared to let go of his control of the business. Hence the Fortress Sports Fund bullshit. I would also agree with Lyndon that everything that can be sold has been, or remortgaged, and we are now even renting our training facility. Good eh ?

Wake up and smell the coffee, Alan.

Gavin Ramejkis
16   Posted 01/10/2008 at 01:22:24

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Alan your choice to quote Mike Parry not mine and if you ever bother to listen to Talksport when he is giving biased commentary on his "friend" Bill Kenwright just then listen to the myriad of free thinking Evertonian callers that literally pick every sentence he has to say to pieces. A tad naive to think a friend wouldn’t stand up for his friend and have nothing derogatory to say about him - QED what’s the point on a commentary as it’s going to be biased and one sided?

As far as the humanitarian effort of Black Bill goes with your project, with all due respect to what sounds a great personal project that doesn’t make Bill one iota a better businessman or capable chairman of Everton Football club in which he has overseen the club failing as a business, countless lies and the worst of all "Desperation Kirkby".

I spend most of my current role working in Scotland with numerous avid football supporters and not one an Evertonian, but to the last man and woman they have all said that Everton is ran like a shambles and can’t believe after the last few seasons what has happened over the last transfer window, for non Evertonians over 250 miles away from Goodison to spot that speaks volumes.
Bob Parrington
17   Posted 01/10/2008 at 04:06:39

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Alan, I reckon you made a good posting and have defended well against critical comments. You wouldn’t be a young, talented central defender would you?
Back to BK, DM and our beloved Everton I postulate:
When he took the reigns BK misread how the financial requirements to run a club in the PL and beyond would inflate. So, I believe he is just a good man (and great supporter) who is out of his depth financially. it could also be that DK is not signing the contract (either his choice or another’s) because there is an offer on the cards for the club. The options here would be a. Davey wants to know who it is he will be signing on with or b. The potential buyer wants to make the dceision in regard to the management team or perhaps c. the potential buyer is doing due dilligence and the club is not allowed to make such large financial commitments during this dd period.
As I said - just postulating.
Drew Phelps
18   Posted 01/10/2008 at 04:32:45

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Way to go, Alan. Great to hear some sense on here...and to hear folks step back and analyze their own kneejerk reactions.

Bill’s problem is that he’s too open with the fans. I for one feel we are better for it.
Dave Wilson
19   Posted 01/10/2008 at 05:41:32

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We’re "totally misguided", "fickle - or just thick", "Ridiculously simplistic".
Our views are "misguided drivel" criticism of Kenright is "disgusting" and "shames everton "
We crave a "misguided Eutopia thats bollocks". . . . . . .

Evertonia should be eternally grateful to you Mr Kirwin for putting us all straight

DM wasted a great opportunity ?
And here’s me thinking he had nothing to do with the KD

Its always amazes me how many advocates of DK start their arguments with the line " I dont want to go to Kirkby but .. " They then go on to spout some idiotic nonsense about A stadium in Kirkby being our only hope of selling the club.
How does that work ? ? ?

Last time - and I swear its the last time - I listened to Mike Parry he was advocating putting wing mirrors on horses, because he believed if the jockeys could see other horses moving up it would avoid serious accidents.

"Misguided drivel" ?
Yep, as is the article, from start to finish
Laurie Cooper
20   Posted 01/10/2008 at 07:49:04

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Alan, having followed the comments made by your good self and the range of responses, I have come to the conclusion that your comments ? clearly in defence of Bill Kenwright and dismissive of those who do not agree ? are (to use your favourite word) visceral and largely based in your experiences with Bill Kenwright as per your second post. Just as you have somewhat arrogantly dismissed Lyndon Lloyd?s comments as being based in the ?major downer? Lyndon has with Mr Kenwright (something he has never tried to hide), yours are clearly influenced by the impression that Mr Kenwright made on you through your personnel dealings with him.

If you had followed your own principles, those which you have both implied in both posts and openly used to attack others who are fed up with the current shambles at Everton, you would have done the honourable thing and declared your hand up and the reasons for it front and not at the end of your second post. I don?t doubt that BK treated you and your request for your personal project with respect and dignity nor do I deny that he is fundamentally a good person. But, as one other poster has since pointed out, that does not make him a good businessman or a good football club president, nor does it make him the right man for Everton FC at this point in time. Equally it does not give you the right to infer facts ? as you done through both of your first two posts ? nor does it give you the right to misinterpret or create ?facts? and then use them to belittle others.

Let?s look at some of some of the arguments you offer in your first post.

In your first post, you identified the issues that are absent at Goodison, including ?worldwide marketing? and then avoid dealing with the reasons we are lacking this preferring to focus on the fact that (in your view) Bill Kenwright is the non-executive chairman and isn?t to blame. You then resort to swiping at your opponents by suggesting your presumption that ?..some fans know the difference? between a non-executive and executive chairman. As a corporate adviser with 30 years experience in that profession and now in semi-retirement, I can assure you that I know the difference and I know that non-executive chairmen do not appoint, sack or even counsel poor performing managers, nor do they directly organise funding for projects or play a direct role in influencing major decisions. As Mr Kenwright was the one who appointed both David Moyes and Keith Wyness, has organised funds for the club and played an important role in the proposed move to Kirkby (all facts acknowledged by you) as well as being involved in player negotiations, he does fill the bill as an Executive Chairman. And from a formal governance (compliance) perspective, he would be held accountable as such by governance auditors and the relevant authorities.

You then move on to point out that criticism about communication between the club it?s supporters ?has merit?, yet once again defend Mr Kenwright by saying that ?it?s not down to? him. Once again, as the Chairman who appointed the former CEO who was at the centre of this latest (quite serious) communication breakdown, he is accountable and is also accountable for everything that goes on at Everton, regardless of whether you feel he is or not. If communication is poor, it is his responsibility ? indeed, it is in his own interests - to sort it out.

In relation to your comment that ?by any objective measurement, and by that I mean those with no axe to grind?Kenwright has over-achieved?. I think you will find from an objective point of view that the ?over-achievement? focuses solely on the football team?s achievements. From a purely business perspective and based on any objective measure deployed to assess the organisation?s overall performance, we clearly have not. For evidence, look no further than the words of Bill Kenwright himself regarding funds, funding and the selling off of the club and the fact (as you have already identified) of our less than satisfactory marketing efforts. Our overall debt has increased with the only discernable value coming from the value of the playing squad, services which should be delivered in-house (as there is no adequate business case that has been able to prove otherwise) have been outsourced, and our home stadium has fallen behind the prevailing standards (although it is not yet the crumbling shell that some might claim). In addition, our credibility was damaged from both a supporter perspective and in financial circles by the disastrous ?Fortress Funds? affair. This ?initiative? was nothing more than a smoke screen designed to rid Mr Kenwright of his business nemesis, Paul Gregg, but had the affect of drawing unnecessarily damaging focus on EFC at a time when it needed all the positive publicity it could get. Instead, we were made a laughing stock by a very amateurish and poorly executed sham. I won?t even go into the negative impacts on Evertonians who looked to this ?fund? to give us hope for the future (but that?s only visceral).

You move on to make excuses for fact we have no investment and fall back on the state of Goodison Park and identify it as ?most definitely a major obstacle as no investor would buy a club..(knowing they) ?had to fork out another 250 million pounds for new stadium?. You?ve obviously not followed the story behind the Emirates sponsorship of Arsenal?s new stadium nor the story in the financial papers regarding the attempts by Manchester City?s new owners to purchase the Eastland stadium and environs for 400 plus million pounds. The major factor a new buyer will be looking at is the commercial viability of their proposed purchase in the open marketplace and its drawing power ? everything else becomes secondary to that, including ground updates and development of new facilities. In any event, the Finch Farm project (a major initiative which Bill Kenwright can hang his hat on), has gained wide recognition as a major asset and is one major factor that would offset any issues with Goodison Park?s condition.

It has been widely recognised for the past few years that we could get investment but this would involve the Chairman in selling his interests or, at the very east, relinquishing the level of control he currently holds over the club.

I won?t even bother dealing with your throw away line about Mr Kenwright selling out to the highest bidder ?who doesn?t give a shit who we are and (brings) in a team of ageing, overweight ex-galacticos to massage his ego?. The is purely reactionary, emotional (visceral) and lacking factual support on your part as is your following comment regarding ?mindless fools?. Although I do strongly agree with you that personal abuse against the Chairman is not the way to go; it doesn?t achieve anything and, equally, it doesn?t say much for us as a club to the outside world.

In your second post, I took strong exception to your comment in response to Lyndon Lloyd where you, rather arrogantly, accused Lyndon of ?having a major downer on Kenwright?. My issue here is that, at least Lyndon has never hidden his dislike of Mr Kenwright?s performance as chairman. You, on the other hand, pontificate and do your own version of the ?sermon on the mount?, chastising those who do not share your views on this issue as a parent chastises a naughty child, but do not reveal your true reasons for the position you hold until the end of your second post. If you want to take the high moral ground on any issue Alan, be sure you are deserving of it and declare your hand upfront.

You then ask the question of Lyndon ?what exactly is Kenwright supposed to do here?? I think the answer to that question is quite clear. Formally place the Club on the market and sell it. Or is that too simple?

Andy White
21   Posted 01/10/2008 at 07:59:34

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Anyone seen what’s going on at Newcastle?

BK has certainly made mistakes but I’d much rather have him as chairman than end up where they are going!

Remember Leeds anyone? We’re solvent and have done well the last few seasons!

BK certainly isn’t perfect and isn’t a billionaire. But I can think of a few PL chairmen who are worse and it scares me how we may end up if personal abuse of our chairman and staff continue.
rich jones
22   Posted 01/10/2008 at 08:42:47

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oh yeah didnt our elustrious chairman take advice from leeds’s then chairman Ridsdale. i think we ended up mortgageing our season ticket sales,
John Andrews
23   Posted 01/10/2008 at 08:37:23

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Very eloquently put Laurie.
Kevin Sparke
24   Posted 01/10/2008 at 08:41:05

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Alan, Bilic sat on his arse for over a year with a ’career threatening injury’ whilst he milked the club of wages we could ill afford to pay. We ended up buying him out of his contract to the tune of a million quid (If my memory serves me right). The day after he was bought out - he got all better and signed for his local team.

When he did play for us, he gave away more needless penalties than any other player I can remember.

He was a classy defender at West Ham... he was a pile of shite for us; booked every game, suspended when not injured. It seemed that all Everton meant to him was money in the bank and for the majority of the time he played for Everton it was money unearned.

He may show loyalty to Croatia, most Croatians do and he played for them several times whilst ’injured’ for his club... he didn’t show any loyalty to Everton.
Alan Kirwin
25   Posted 01/10/2008 at 08:58:15

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Laurie Cooper: Briefly, you make some bizarre charges which bear little or no resemblance to my posting. I also did not respond arrogantly to Lyndon (read his own retort, even he agrees). I just think he’s wrong on some of this. You’re getting into a knot with most of your response trying to spin it around.

And for you and others who think that the project I mentioned has clouded my judgement, well it’s unfortunate that you don’t know me. That is one episode that simply demonstrates the guy is exectly as he presents himself. There is, in my view, nothing false or unscrupulous about Kenwright. Of course he makes mistakes. Don’t you?

For the record I also am NOT (viscerally) in favour of Kirkby one iota, I just see the reasons why. But it neither pleases me nor raises my blood pressure. And finally, near the end of your brief response you accept that the type of abuse Kenwright is receiving is wrong. So at least you got something right.

Kevin: Re Bilic - Take your point. I vividly remember Bilic’s time at Goodison. I’m split. His time here was a waste and cost us. But I like the cut of his jib as a manager, he has the approach of a young Phil Scolari with is advocacy of skill & free flowing football, he’s open to the media & is straight & relaxed. It’s over 10 years since he was here. Time moves on. I only threw his name in because I couldn’t see who else of any renown might fit the bill (and be affordable).
Ste Spruell
26   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:10:50

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I still cant understand why BK comes in for so much stick, granted there have been plenty of own goals by the board during his tenure but I dont beleive for one minute that BK has ever knowingly done anything that he didnt think was in the best interests of the club.
All the people opposed to the ground move need to wake up and smell the coffee, why do you think the club is finding it so difficult to find investors?

Think back to the Johnson era then try convincing anyone with an ounce of common sense that the club has not made great strides forward under BK.

By his own admission he doesnt have the cash to take the club any further but you could hardly slate the man for that anymore than you could blame yourself for not eing the billionaire to uy him out.
stephen stuart
27   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:17:01

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"The mindless fools ....."

Well Alan, you give yourself away with this dubious piece of propaganda. We are only supposed to hold the view that you hold otherwise we are mindless. With such clever insight as this there’s no woder the Club are a laughing stock!
rich jones
28   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:22:29

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Laurie, Gavin with comments like ste’s and Andy’s and the fact that even Alan has been so easily hoodwinked by BK’s good dead for the day we just have to accept that Kenwright has done a good job on such a large section of our support
Simon Jones
29   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:19:01

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When BK stepped in, I guess the club was available to anybody prepared to stump up what Johnson wanted. Now forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn’t BK and his mates the only show in town at that time? I can’t remember anyone else stuping up the millions needed back then. So when you moan about BK, just remember that.

Football in the Premier League has moved on since then, starting with the CL monopoly and the Chelsea billions. Everton have been left behind in money terms, look at Leeds for an example of what happens when you try to compete and it all goes wrong. If BK sells now I would not blame him, plus if he makes a huge profit, I would not begrudge him one penny.

I guess the Kirkby issue is what has put most fans backs up and is the cause of most of the hostility shown towards BK.

Moyes and BK have done a great job so far, keeping all the balls in the air. I hope that one day we will look back on them far more kindly than we do now.
Alan Ross
30   Posted 01/10/2008 at 08:47:07

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merits aside of your eloquent article and the sympathy I have for your loss, the act of using ’a dead brother card’ in your second post when you saw your argument being lossed is a disgrace. Shame on you.
Brian Donnelly
31   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:05:19

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What a superb response!

Whatever opinions people have on the dreaded Kirkby, the financial woes of EFC and the competence of BK to be the chairman, there is one indisputable fact:

You can?t believe a word that Kenwright says.

For that reason alone, the sooner he goes the better.
jay harris
32   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:51:03

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I am no doubt one of those "mindless fools" you allude to for having an opinion that’s different to yours.

You are no doubt influenced by the sad experience of your brother and I am sorry to hear about that however I do not have a rose tinted view of Kenwright.

As well as being credited with Moyes appointment he has also appointed 4 Chief executives in less tha 8 years including the infamous Mr Wyness who in commercial terms had the well known pedigreee of a mass murderer.

I have 2 issue with Kenwright one of which is major.

The man is a proven liar and I dont need to relist all the now well known lies emanating form his mouth not all in the interests of goodwill either for example the "Fortress Sports Fund’ ... "The cheque will be in the bank in the morning" all so he could retain control of the club he pretends to not know what’s going on in.

He is totally incompetent as chairman of EFC.Under his regime we have run up record debts,sold off the majority of our assets,treated the fans and small shareholders with total contempt,created a PR department that issues the same bulllshit lies and worst of all destroyed the commercial operations at EFC accompanied by the statement "Everton fans dont buy shirts"!

Kenwright like most charming people is a scheming and bullshitting egotist and if that opinion makes me a mindless fool in your mind then I pity you.
Gavin Ramejkis
33   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:20:56

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and Alan, Doddy forgot to add anytime you want to visit his bedroom shrine to Black Bill (think of the Alan Partridge biggest fan episode) you are more than welcome, there’s plenty of room only he uses it........
Brian Waring
34   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:15:25

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Alan, what about the Kings dock, NTL, Fortress? Have you anything to say on these lies? What about, as Laurie mentions, Fortress just being a smokescreen to get rid of his mate Gregg? One more thing, you mention that he was open and honest at the EGM, So what about Bill then changing the rules, so shareholders couldn’t call another one? What about " world class stadium, virtually free, with the best transport infrastructure in the country"? But I reckon,because these have turned out to be bollocks, you will say that wasn’t down to him? I respect you for defending him, but please, don’t try to make him out to be this white knight in shinning armour, a lot of us here, can see him for what he really is.
Alan Kirwin
35   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:29:08

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Alan Ross: your reading of why I mentioned how Kenwright responded to a proposal from a total stranger is ignorance personified, and warped. You carry on looking for bad or fault in everything. What a miserable existence you must lead. I don’t need your sympathy for my brother, you didn’t know him. Kenwright simply did a good thing, sorry if facts like that interfere with your vision of him as Satan.

As for using the "dead brother card" when I saw my argument being lost, you are patently a sick & sad man. I wanted to do something unique for my brother. It had to be about Everton. The chairman gave me the opportunity without hesitation. It will (we hope) raise a lot of money for 2 great charities. It’s not "showing my true colours" other than to reveal that I loved my brother, I love my club and I don’t spend my time slagging people off and looking for bogeymen. Who exactly is the disgrace here?
Laurie Cooper
36   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:44:58

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Alan, you accuse me of making ?some bizarre charges which bear little or no resemblance to my posting?. In my initial posting I only worked within the parameters of the information you provided and the claims you made and what, in fact I did do, was try to correct (only) some of misleading information you presented as ?facts? in defence of Bill Kenwright. Your response, rather predictably by now, is to try and deflect any criticism of your arguments ? based in opinions rather than facts ? by once again resorting to unsubstantiated and unsubstantiable ?backhanders? for no other reason than I (and others) disagree with most of your points and certainly call into question many of your ?facts?.

And if you don?t think your responses were delivered in an arrogant and self-serving way, you might care to explain why the need for the tenor of your response to Lyndon (yes, I know he accepted that he was being flippant but least he was up front about it), why you continually have to put anyone who dares to question you or hold an alternative opinion down (eg use of the phrase ?I’m guessing most fans haven’t? to demonise and ridicule supporters who don?t have your self-proclaimed appreciation of the difference between an executive and non-executive chairman word (which you incorrectly applied to BK?s situation), ?sad? in your response to John Andrews, your use of the term ?so at least you got something right? to me regarding the abuse being thrown up at BK and ?you?re getting into a knot with most of your response trying to spin it around? ? and in your retorts to others). It appears that you regard yourself as the font of all knowledge on Bill Kenwright, business practice, and on any matters appertaining to EFC. And as for me getting myself in a knot, Alan, I?m assuming that this means that you are unable to respond constructively to the points I put forward, or worse still, you don?t really comprehend what I?ve written.

Additionally, if you cannot see your behaviour towards others in your posts as arrogant, then I think that you are the sad one, Alan, because if you cannot, then you really have no idea of how to communicate effectively with others, any ability to receive and process constructive feedback maturely or any level of self-awareness.

The bottom line is that you and I disagree on some of the issues ? especially those you claim as facts - you raised in defence of Bill Kenwright, I took up only some of your key points, and addressed them from the point of view of someone who has experienced and helped organisations work through the type of organisational turmoil that is currently afflicting our beloved EFC for a living. And for you to claim that I?m ?getting into a knot? for me really sums you up ? someone with a passion, a high level of respect for someone (in this case BK and for good reason) and who has become caught up in his own emotions and is prepared to lash out at those who don?t agree.

So, rather than resorting to what is apparently your preferred throw away line / name calling responses, you could perhaps enlighten me as to which ?charges are bizarre? and the reasons why . For the record, I repeat that I have simply addressed the ?bizarre charges? you have levelled against others and sought to put some reality around your a-rational and highly defensive stance over Mr Kenwright. This is not to deny you the right to defend BK, it just requires that you stop presenting opinions as facts and, more importantly, stop attacking others who don?t see it your way
Dave Wilson
37   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:31:24

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Bk did indeed display a warm caring side to his nature when Alan approached him and spoke about his tragic loss, for that he should be applauded, so too should Alan for his efforts to raise Money for two very worthwhile charities.

It wasnt the fact that Alan was being supportive of BK that caused offence, it was calling other people fickle, misguided and Thick. You have to be very careful that your post is accurate to do that

Alans wasnt
Alan Kirwin
38   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:03:28

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Dave Wilson: your point well made Dave and I accept it completely.
Alan Kirwin
39   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:09:32

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Laurie Cooper: to save space & time, let’s agree to disagree. We’re both Evertonians & life’s too short.
Ciarán McGlone
40   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:06:43

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Is this the same Mike Parry who said that parents should prevent there children from playing with overweight kids?

What a maudlin sycophantic and wholly contorted version of Bill Kenwright..

The mind boggles...or Mike Parry’s does anyway.

The guys an idiot.
EJ Ruane
41   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:44:14

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Put his neck in my hands and I will!
Chris Jones
42   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:00:22

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For what it?s worth (barely 2p) here?s my two penny-worth...

1. BK loves EFC and wants the best for them. Regardless of what others may think of him as a person, he is undoubtedly one of us.
2. BK rescued us from a man who didn?t love EFC or particularly care about it - beyond what he could realise in cash terms. That man was not one of us. No sir!
3. BK made some good decisions; e.g. appointing and sticking with DM, creating the Blue Blood fouundation..
4. BK has always adopted an ?open? approach as accords with his readiness to speak whenever a microphone is placed within 100m.
5. BK is out of his depth in the ?new? super (sic) Premiership, in financial terms and in other regards. He has admitted as much himself (to his credit).
6. Having adopted an ?open? approach, BK has spun half truths (and likely worse) when faced with awkward questions and/or uncomfortable truths. It is not in his nature to shut up shop and say "no comment" (as might be better sometimes).
7. People in positions of trust and authority commonly spin shite to get them out of an awkward spot. BK is no different in this regard to countless Popes and Presidents.
8. Football fans are, in the main ingrates. This is certainly true when things aren?t going well - no matter how good thing have been in the past.
9. Things haven?t been going well and BK is getting a right, royal blue pelting in the pillory.
10. Much of the flak BK takes is deserved but a lot of the more unpleasant shite thrown at him he perhaps doesn?t deserve.
11. BK is now reaping what he sowed as regards half-truths and rubbish. I understand and appreciate the right of fans to punish him for the errors of his ways, but some of the poison spouted is unworthy of EFC ?fans?.
12. I feel a touch of sympathy for him because (IMHO) he has been foolish and misguided. He?s lied to paper over cracks rather than out of an innate desire to mislead, and he is still one of us.
13. BK needs to go for his own sake. I hope the manner of his exit is one which will bring him some deserved credit and benefit the club.

Tantum optimus operor si nos tantum micturisius

Only the best would do - if only we had a pot to piss in.
Ciarán McGlone
43   Posted 01/10/2008 at 12:24:45

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Here?s a couple of responses to your tuppence-worth Chris:

1) BK loves himself more than Everton...if he?d wanted what was best for us he?d have left a long time ago.

2) BK was a board member under PJ, and therefore was complicit in PJ?s actions - I don?t remember him resigning in disgust at PJ?s action - or even bad mouthing this so-called pariah!

3) BK made one good decision in appointing Moyes - and the rumour is that it was the cheapest option and not even his decision.

4) BK?s open approach involves telling people what he thinks they want to hear ratehr than the truth - and gagging shareholders.

5) It took him 8 years to realise he had no money - why did he take over in the first place - see point 1!

6) I'm glad you admit he is a bullshitter

7) But let's not make excuses for his bullshitting eh!

8) I don?t think I'm an ingrate.

9) He deserves it. Have a quick google for his past record - he?s doen as much damage as PJ and presided over the most divisive period in the clubs history. Even PJ would not have had the balls to take us to Kirkby - and try and spin that it is for our own good!

10) I haven?t seen anything he hasn?t brought on himself.

11) Some of the disgusting tactics employed by Bill is also unworthy of Everton fans - after all, that?s his biggest selling point!

12) I feel absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for him. He has damaged the club I love and will continue until he has damaged it irrepairably... sympathy? Not a fuckin chance.

13) He deserves no glory whatsoever... he is beyond the point of no return... a complete disgrace.

Steve Rewth
44   Posted 01/10/2008 at 12:24:38

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If Harry Enfield ever wanted to do another scousers sketch he?d find ample material on here.
Richard Dodd
45   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:11:46

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How on earth can any Evertonian believe that when the day comes for Blue Bill to say goodbye, the next incumbent will automatically be any more inclined to listen to the constant whining, whinging and general disaffection displayed in these columns? I truly believe Bill has been a saint to involve and respond to supporters of the ilk we have on here. Just ask the lot over the road how brilliant it is to have two billionaire owners!
Spud Murphy
46   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:00:19

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Yeah lets get rid of the ant-Christ and bring back "red agent" Johnson (he who used EFC for surety against his failing hamper businesss) and Walter "disappointing" Smith (who brought us Gazza, Ginola and abject defeat after abject defeat and narrowly failed relegation) - ah those were the days! Seems some have short memories to go with the shared brain cell.
Neil Pearse
47   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:12:33

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Alan, it is probably just as pointless for me to wade in here against the onslaught, but I would just like to indicate that your views are supported by others out here. Including me.

Like you, I believe Bill is limited and that it is time for him to go, but he is certainly not the selfish and immoral person portrayed on this thread. Chris Jones you are also quite right to point out that the so-called ’lies’ are foolish attempts to paper over the cracks (better to have stayed slient no doubt), and alternatives usually to saying, "We are skint and in trouble".

I think the heart of your view is your statement, "We do not have a divine right to anything". Most of your assailants on here basically believe the opposite. Somehow Bill should have magicked a world class stadium, a brilliant team, and all other good things, out of a hat. And all he managed was to make us the best club outside the top four.

Thanks Alan for bringing some reality to the debate. Sorry you had to endure so much abuse for doing so.
David Kiely
48   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:38:02

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Ha Ha. Best wind up ever.

Ray Burn
49   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:34:32

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I?m in 99% agreement with Alan, and consider his original posting to be one of the best I?ve yet read on TW.

I?m also mildly amused that some of those who will happily spend their days abusing Bill Kenwright, and anyone who shows any support for him, with the kind language and venom that would make a docker blush, seem to have got their panties in a twist over the rather mild and relatively innocuous "mindless fools" comment.

Great job Alan.
Erik Bjorgum
50   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:30:39

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Great post Alan - I totally agree. History will tell us that our club was better of with BK, with or without David Moyes. Even football is gonna be affected by the world economy for years to come. No Abramowitches and Arabs have the passion needed for this part of the job. COYB 2U BK.
Alan Kirwin
51   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:41:35

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Thanks Neil. Abuse seems the only refuge of so many who take the time to "share their views" on this forum. I’m tempted to make a more amusing comment, but that would result in the site being even more overloaded with bile from indignant contributors venting their spleen and spluttering in their Carlsberg whilst dancing on a pin-head. Not a pretty sight.

Clar*n McGlone: A question if I may, for you & others who feel as indignant as you do about this club..

What exactly would make you happy as an Evertonian? What is it that you want or expect that would free you to do something other than vent your spleen about Bill Kenwright? What needs to happen to this club for you to be able to smile and feel good about yourself?
Ged Alexander
52   Posted 01/10/2008 at 14:08:02

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A fabulous series of posts. I so wish people at Everton read visited this site as it is a great guide to the thinking of a cross-section of fans. Here?s my input in this debate:

Bill Kenwright is the right man at the wrong time. He?s old school and football is in a new place. He cares, he has not got the money.

David Moyes - the chapter about him in the cub hsitory should be headlined ?He put us back in business.? He?s done a great job. But would he allow a player to pause too long over a contract offer as good as the one David has got? And an he move us on from where we are without an awful lot of money? Consider this. The Belgian side that may well knock us out of the UEFA cup cost less than we paid for Fellaini and they are paid an average of £10 k a week. Villareal pay more in wages, but their coach assembled a side for less than David has at Everton. There are always Plans B and C...we should be thinking about them.

The takeover? I agree, we should be careful what we wish for.
Ciarán McGlone
53   Posted 01/10/2008 at 14:23:21

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Perhaps I should start by pointing out your erroneous and somewhat confused assumptuion...I am certainly not ’indignant about this club’

Maybe you’ve lost the trend of this thread but it is about BK...not the club.

Having cleared that up i’ll certainly answer you question/s....In fact, I may be able to fulfill that little request simply with a one word answer.....what i require of this club to make me feel a bit bettter about the chairman - HONESTY!

Guy Wilknson
54   Posted 01/10/2008 at 14:22:40

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I think that criticism of Kenwright on a moral level should be the exclusive preserve of those who have put their money where their mouth is and purchased a share in EFC.

On a business level he’s awful.
Kevin Sparke
55   Posted 01/10/2008 at 14:51:43

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Alan, I agree Bilic does have something about the buccaneer about him as a manager.

BTW your original post and your spirited defence of your position made good reading, even though I don’t really follow your line of argument.

On balance I’d suggest that Kewright’s heart is the right place but he’s not a big enough man to be Everton Chairman (In all senses).

I’m quite sure we’re in for some rocky times ahead when destination Kirkby is cancelled and we’re left holding on to fresh air as a viable alternative.

David Kiely
56   Posted 01/10/2008 at 15:22:20

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Alan Kirwan -

"What needs to happen to this club for you to be able to smile and feel good about yourself?"

Yeah, it?s all down to the warped psyche of the "spleen venters" at the end of the day isn?t it? Nothing whatsoever to do with concrete reality.

I?m with you and Mike Parry. Down with the disaffected!
Ciarán McGlone
57   Posted 01/10/2008 at 15:31:45

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Anyone who says they’re on an intellectual level with Mike ’freebie’ Parry...should really take a look at themselves.
Alan Kirwin
58   Posted 01/10/2008 at 15:21:35

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Thanks Kevin :-)

My argument is two-fold. Firstly that too many fans have short memories & long wish lists. Their take on events surrounding Kenwright is misguided and appears to be based on some Utopian dream that never was and never will be. It can?t be just about honesty, that?s frankly ridiculous.

Secondly that, regardless of whether one is pro or against Kenwright (or Moyes or anyone) the bile that is spewed out both at the games and on this forum is pathetic.

There are major disagreements, it seems, about Bill Kenwright and of course about Kirkby. There is truly no point in going around that particular house again. However, there is a profound difference in both the language and the content employed by the majority of pro and anti brigades (be it Kirkby or Kenwright).

Some of those against Kirkby (or Kenwright) employ solid arguments, facts and beliefs to present their case. Good on them. Others are just abusive, period. If anger, abuse & indignation really does reflect low personal esteem then it doesn?t paint too pretty a picture about a large swathe of Evertonia.

Anyway, I?m dropping this tread and thinking about tomorrow - actually I?m dreading tomorrow because I think most of us know what to expect.

I?m off to take my little boy to footy school in Littlehampton now, wearing his Everton kit of course. Then out for a pint. It?s been an interesting, if sadly predictable thread.
Brian Hughes
59   Posted 01/10/2008 at 15:07:30

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Surely worth acknowledging somewhere here that Bill has apologised for not being a billionnaire and publicly declared his desire to sell.
So how all this vitriol publicly directed at him will make us any more attractive to a potential investor, like that Indian guy, is beyond me. Why would anyone want to throw money at a club carrying serious debt and in need of a stadium and with fans likely to abuse you for your trouble if things aren’t perfect?
We may not have done a Leeds and have avoided the plight of Sheffield Wed, Notts Forest but in some ways we are in serious danger of emulating Newcastle.
David Kiely
60   Posted 01/10/2008 at 15:42:43

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Ciarán - you do realise I was taking the piss dont you?

Ciarán McGlone
61   Posted 01/10/2008 at 16:05:29

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It was an add on to your sarcasm lad.
Ciarán McGlone
62   Posted 01/10/2008 at 16:06:49

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Your not really grasping the argument against Kenwright are you?

The man might have said he wanted to sell to get out of a tricky situation at a forced EGM....but the fact that he is a renowned bullshitter - means that his statement is absolutely worthless.
Elton Safety
63   Posted 01/10/2008 at 16:13:12

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Clarn McGlone: Own up, you’ve simply got a bet on as to how many times you can say the word "bullshitter" in a thread. I make that about 50. Give your arse (and the rest of us) a rest and go out for a drink. Fucking misery, you’re making me even more depressed.
David Kiely
64   Posted 01/10/2008 at 16:20:15

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Elton -

you do the ’bullshitter’ count, I’ll tally up the ’biles’, ’spleens’ and ’vitriols’ .

Ciarán McGlone
65   Posted 01/10/2008 at 16:35:55

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Thanks for raising a hasn’t happened much since saturday.
Dave Wilson
66   Posted 01/10/2008 at 19:30:56

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I didn't agree with most of your article, but I would like to know more about your project though.
Paul Chew
67   Posted 01/10/2008 at 19:13:12

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I have a rather nasty fear that all the BK haters will get their wish in the not too distant future.

A new owner pumping millions in will put ticket prices sky high, shirt prices will go up and we’ll have corporate boxes all over the bloody place.

BK is not the ideal chairman but for gods sake get some perspective, look at the clowns across the park they don’t even talk to each other anymore.

Kenwright has many faults and as already been pointed out he should walk away from the press sometimes but would you rather have Johnson back?

For all those who point at Man Utd and Newcastles grounds can i point out that we have a church in the corner of ours which is going nowhere and prevents a full ground re-development.

Sometimes i wonder if we all support the same team! Get behind the blues before we all disappear up our own arse.

Above all else BK is a kindly man and does not deserve to take the personal abuse he gets on threads like this. Mistakes he has made many and he can be rightly brought to task on them.

just remember him a bit more fondly when he goes and you are paying £50 to sit in the Chevrolet South Stand to watch the 2nd rnd of the Carling Cup against Northampton Town.
Alan Clarke
68   Posted 01/10/2008 at 19:36:59

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Kenwright has let us all down but he didn’t pick Neville in midfield on Saturday and he didn’t choose the ’play for a 0-0 draw at home in a local derby’ tactics.

Is Moyes honestly trying to teach Kenwright a lesson? You’ve not helped me this summer so I’m going to spend the only remaining money we’ve got on a lanky shit midfielder and I’m going to make the team play even worse and not bother telling them to defend.
Paul Coleman
69   Posted 01/10/2008 at 21:56:39

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I used to say good old Bill, he’s one of us. Now I see him for what he is. He is a liar, as harsh as it sounds he has lied on more than one occasion and we keep giving him a pat on the back and let him get away with it.
His number is up. He has no money, he wants to move us out of the city and he has failed to back his manager with money at a time when he most needed it. He will grind us to dust before most Evertonians wake up and realise whats going on. We MUST start to proactively protest and put pressure on this man to abandon DK and put the club up for sale and PROVE it is for sale. We MUST make our voices heard before its too late and BK destroys Everton. He was a good guy that turned bad. The power corrupted him.
Andy White
70   Posted 02/10/2008 at 00:08:52

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Rich Jones, if you think looking around and seeing that we?re better off than many others (or maybe simply disagreeing with you) means ?Kenwright has done a good job? on me then maybe I?m not the one who is closed minded and / or brainwashed!

Laurie - your posts refers to Alan arrogantly dismissing Lyndon?s comment. His response was no more arrogant and dismissive than many of the posts aimed at him & his article. If you are to be the self appointed policeman of posting etiquette maybe you should address the wrongs of all posters - not just the ones who disagree with you!

I agree with some of Alan?s points and disagree with others (what normally happens when open minded people read an article!)

I think Bill?s biggest achievement (appointing Moyes) was more luck than judgement. However I believe sticking by him during the rougher times when other teams (eg Newcastle) would have sacked him was good judgement / leadership.

I don?t like being lied to and I think Bill has been much less than truthful. That said almost all politicians & business leaders use spin (and even outright lie) on occasions. Sometimes this is because they are arrogant, sometimes this is because being honest would be detrimental to the common good or maybe a combination of both. For example who would want to sign for a club who?s chairman came out and said - we?re broke, we don?t have a chance of winning anything this year, and with the transfer fees & wages we?re having to pay we might even be insolvent in a couple of years? Who on earth would provide us with finance?

That said money is needed so regardless of other arguments we do need more finance which means Bill has to go. But I?d rather he took as much time as necessary to find a good new owner given the long-lasting damage a bad one could do. For his part doesn?t an investor deserve a good return on an investment (particuarly a highly risky one). Particularly when under their leadership their enterprise has had it?s most successful period in 20 years?

When Alan asks what would make you happy I think that?s a fair question. For me 10 years ago being offered the position we?re in I?d have taken it. On the pitch we?ve made huge progress from where we were in the 90s. That?s not to say that you shouldn?t aim high, I?d like to be CEO of my company one day. But taking some happiness from your successes is part of living life.

I personally believe the devil of football isn?t BK but the ridiculous sums of money being thrown in by billionaire owners of football clubs. It means that the average club can?t compete and that fans don?t matter. I don?t know but I strongly doubt that Abramovich listens to or cares about Chelsea fans. When the sums of money thrown about come into the game the true local season ticket buying fans no longer have anywhere near the influence they would like & should have. But then that?s another issue....
Brian Waring
71   Posted 02/10/2008 at 15:58:48

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Paul Chew, if BK gets his way, and Kirkby gets the go ahead, what you are saying will happen there. There will be loads of boxes ( don’t know how the plan to fill them though ) ticket prices will go sky high, and I think you will find that our shirt prices are already amongst the highest priced in the prem, someone even mentioned that they had trawled through other prem team sites, and actually found ours to be the highest. At the end of the day, someone will have to pay for Kirkby, and it will be us, the fans.
Brian Wolf
72   Posted 02/10/2008 at 17:04:47

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BK is the reason I refuse to go to games anymore. Until he’s out he ain’t getting another penny off me.
Ped Pearl
73   Posted 03/10/2008 at 06:13:03

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BK deserves some damn respect. He is a blue. He has given his all. He has protected us. He has stablized the club. He has enabled us to break our transfer record every year the last few seasons. He gave us Moyes. He gave us hope and the fact that we can forget about relegation worries and concentrate on the top half of the table (have you memory loss)?. He gave us back our respect... so respect Kenwright - because you could not do it better! If you say you can, then you lie. BK is to be applauded that he has kept our great great club in British hands till the right buyer comes along. Fools that says anything against him. COYB
Michael Brien
74   Posted 03/10/2008 at 07:21:47

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Kenwright’s biggest crime is that he hasn’t got enough money - he’s not mega rich like Abramovich & Co. Whenever results are bad some Evertonians a) Slag off Neville b) Slag off Moyes c) Slag off Kenwright or do all 3.
Back in the days of Dixie Dean two years after winning the League in 1927-28 we were relegated !!! I think the Rollercoaster of emotions thing must be part of an Evertonians’ DNA !!!
Let’s not go all Newcastle and Tottenham like - some bad results and there are demo’s and the like. I recall coming out of Goodison in October 1983 after a 1-0 loss to Luton - if anyone had told me that 6 months later 10 of that team would be at Wembley winning the FA Cup I would’ve suggested they needed some kind of therapy!! All is not lost remember Wembley ’66 and the dark days of ’83 .We can come back from this - all is not lost.We need to show some unity. The season’s not over yet.
Ciarán McGlone
75   Posted 03/10/2008 at 08:57:43

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If you loved the club would you sit on a board that was complicit in the actions of Peter Johnson?
Michael Brien
76   Posted 03/10/2008 at 10:25:05

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Do you resign and try to change things from the outside ? not always the easiest thing to do. Or do you stay and try and change things from within. Johnson ? had us all fooled at first; yes, even the fans were taken in by it all. I wouldn?t say that Kenwright was complicit in the actions of Johnson ? I think you are very much wrong there. These owners don?t run their clubs as democracies; I think Johnson was no exception.
Joseph Moore
77   Posted 03/10/2008 at 19:53:38

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Ciaran McGlone - 9) Even PJ would not have had the balls to take us to Kirkby - and try and spin that it is for our own good!

Johnson was going to take us to Cronton!
Rich Jones
78   Posted 04/10/2008 at 19:38:29

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Well said Brian Wolfe, this will be my last season ticket under Bill Kenwright. I can't take his shite anymore and if he moves us to Kirkby I'll never go again. Well done, Bill ? you're a true blue!!
Mark Wilson
79   Posted 05/10/2008 at 10:43:28

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Sometimes it really helps to come in on these emotive threads quite late. Well it does but it can be very painful and harsh reading, in particular as the reasoned debate descends into personal abuse and a level of acrimony that is sickening. Quite frankly I despair at what is happening here.

Alan Kirwan: I have been a Bill Kenwright man for ever and it has cost me friends, led to personal attacks that ruin any enjoyment to be had from sharing EFC related debates on the internet or in a pub etc. So it was with some trepidation that I read your original posting and then gingerley started to scroll down the list of responses.

But, refreshingly, though the nasty and deeply personal stuff was still present, there was a lot of honest, emotional but above all, reasonable argument that demonstrates quite powerfully that BK supporters are not as rare as we think but equally that the Kenwright-Out brigade are not just about vitriolic attacks.

This is an amazingly important thread and one that the club should read carefully. Some postings are clearly not balanced, others too abusive, but most are worthy of attention. It was great to see Chris Jones set out a balanced view and good to see the likes of Richard Dodd, Neil Pearse, Ged Alexander, Paul Chew and Andy White add a degree of support for a reasoned view of BK?s tenure.

But you know what Alan, despite my years taking flak for speaking up for the guy I find it hard to understand how you cannot see why so many are angry at the way the Club has descended into farce over the last few months. Robert Elstone is a very good man, please believe me he has a style, a demeanour, a shrewd brain and a massive dose of pragmatism and if we have the sense to make his appointment permanent he can help turn things round. But even he cannot magic up a rational explanation for why the transfer policy and approach is at the head of that "farce" queue, why we end up minus a CEO at a crucial time, why a hugely immpressive manager cannot sign a £17m deal and cannot see, months ago, that not doing so was causing real damage to a club he has helped save from relegation and worse. And.... why for so long the club insisted on letting the anti Kirkby groups have a free run at the negative PR about the move and did not fight back more effectively against the despicable Warren Bradley and his nasty bunch of mega rich friends.

There is so much nonsense aimed at Bill Kenwright it is impossible to know where to start but equally he scores far too many own goals and just invites the kind of aggro and daft attacks. He must know that the Fortress Sports Fund debacle is beyond defense? He surely knows that the club have not, until now, effectively answered questions about the transport issues that impact Kirkby, not to mention debated how we are supposed to live with what seem to be crazy planning restrictions on the use of our own ground? He must know that whilst the commercial side is better than it was, overall there remain serious failings and frankly the JJB deal feels a poor one in terms of delivering a wide range of carefully priced goods to a willing fan base?

But is he responsible for all our problems? Nope. Does he deserve the flak for selling that jug eared judas? No. Is he rich enough? No. Is he a monster...... well I don't think so but I do suspect that he's had enough and surely the time is right.... has been for several years in truth, to sell up and return to being just one of us in the stands desperately willing a miracle.... like a clean sheet or a win over the RS or another punching-above-our-weight 5th place finish?

ToffeeWeb? You should be proud that you can provide the forum for such doesnt happen everywhere and this is one of the "EFC places" that can still run an argument and show some balance actually exists.
Steve Rewth
80   Posted 05/10/2008 at 23:36:24

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Wonder how a new wealthy owner might regard Moyes?s position - as secure as under BK?
Steve Rewth
81   Posted 05/10/2008 at 23:47:47

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Some views I find strange but none more so than how can you remain a true blue by never ever going again?
Rich Jones
82   Posted 05/10/2008 at 23:19:10

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Mark, very eloquently put. I should say I've not always been against Bill... in fact I can remember eagerly buying the Post and the Echo every day for all the time he was trying to buy Johnson out, desperate for news he would take over, then he did and oh the joy!!!

I remember him taking control of the Ferguson deal and thinking how over the top and slightly unproffessional he seemed, then there was NTL... I think many of problems stem from that but I thought, "Hey, we all make mistakes."

Kings Dock was where I started to get annoyed. I really felt taken for a ride ? a lot of people forget that Kings Dock was his little smokescreen because we were fucking awful at that time and it was all we could cling too. Hell, there was even a model of it down at the Maritime Museum. He didn't deliver and humiliated us.

I still felt that he had fucked up rather than anything sinister, then Samuelson and Fortress Sports Fund came and it was obvious to me what this was all about and getting rid of Gregg too.

And as for Kirkby, well I'm sorry but I'm too upset to put into words what I feel about it but let's just say I'm a traditionalist.

David Johnson
83   Posted 07/10/2008 at 08:17:19

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I'm with Rich Jones. Never had an axe to grind and welcomed Kenwright with open arms. Now, after years of lies and being treated like a fool by the man, I've had enough.

I think we all struggle because Bill is a massive blue so it's like being betrayed by one of your own family. It's hard to believe he would put his own interests before the family's. We are desparate to think the best of him. We even cling on to crap like he's being all evasive because he's doing something behind the scenes that has to be kept hush hush for the benefit of the club.

We couldn't even put a recognised first 11 on the park for the start of the season. That is a massive failure on our chairman's part and the points lost could be crucial come the end of the season. For that reason, never mind the rest, he should go now.

Phil Johns
84   Posted 07/10/2008 at 12:15:45

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Be honest guys - if you were a Billionaire, looking to buy a Football Club, & you read this thread, et al, & saw how spectacularly divided the fanbase is - would you ????
I ’ve followed Everton for over 40 years & can never remember it being this bad - maybe it’s just the internet warriors on here & BlueKipper etc that make it seem worse than it really is but jeez, whatever happened to the Everton family???
rich jones
85   Posted 07/10/2008 at 13:00:33

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Well Phil, there is a corporate stratagy called divide and conquor, you have to wonder if this has been used on our fanbase, it’s certainly not been brought about by the fans. I think surely you should be asking the club what have they done to cause this.
Mark Tallentire
86   Posted 08/10/2008 at 23:17:44

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John Andrews,

When Moyes arrived from Preston he got the going rate, and we had to pay a big sum, £1m if memory serves, to get North End to let him break his contract.
Hardly cheap, our record buy was £5.75m at the time, and you did not pay for managers. He had another contract, about 2005 I think, and got another rise and job security of five years.

In the build-up to the Fiorentina away game, Moyes, let it be know to a few favoured journos that he had 15 months to go and had no new deal offered, getting it out there if you like.

Like Cahill and Arteta before him, he was playing the game and trying to get a thumping pay rise, one assumes with release clause ? a classic case of starting to believe his own publicity.

Since then, we have won about five games and he has reaped what he sowed. Celtic apart, he would be lucky to get a club anywhere near to the size of ours ? Spurs or Newcastle perhaps, but who would want to rebuild them in 18 months. Better be careful, Moyes, or you might be in the market to get a job at a place like Southampton and have to get them up playing 4-5-1...
Michael Brooks
87   Posted 09/10/2008 at 14:56:10

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You have to listen to what old Bill says, he is looking for investors! He has rarely if at all used the word 'buyer' cos he is not looking to sell! It is all sound bites to keep us all happy and dreaming of money to spend to January! He has to sell up and leave before he ruins the good work he has done, I think his time has run out!
rich jones
88   Posted 10/10/2008 at 08:25:04

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I see there has been more debt added to the bottom line, fair do’s to Bill he really is always looking 24/7 for that investment, hey guys!!

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