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Dodd vs Marsh - Who Wins? You decide.

By Anthony  Jaras :  30/09/2008 :  Comments (75) :
There was a time when I was a Richard Dodd. Not as extreme as Richard but, I admit, I was.

No matter how badly we played, I tried to extract any miniscule particles of hope and positivity and look forward with excitement to our next game.

I was 13.

Over the years, since my first Goodison experience (Wimbledon 0-0, Warzycha hit the Park End bar) I have always looked for the positives, because I had to.

Kendall left and a new wave of optimism gripped me, just as Mike Walker came in.

I had watched Walker's Norwich City destroying teams at will. Chris Sutton banging them in for fun, Ruel Fox being, well, a fox in the box... and Jeremy Goss putting his namesakes Matt and Luke from Bros. to shame with some stirling midfield performances.

Indeed, if anything told us that what the Norwich Walker had built were the real deal, the 5-1 reverse at Goodison did when Efan Ekoku ran riot. I sat on the front row of the Gwladys Street that day (hoping to get on the telly) in awe at the pace and power of Norwich.

Sadly, Walker was shite and had to go; however, a new dawn was around the corner.

Joe Royle rode in on the proverbial white (and blue) horse and not only did he turn Duncan Ferguson into a legend, he also injected Paul Rideout with the ability to be bloody good at scoring goals and steered us to safety, not to mention our last piece of silverware, the FA Cup.

Although the final was better, I will never forget this day as I cried like a baby at full-time and my mates had to console me as I never thought I would see the day when we won anything due to how shite we had been.

Royle then gave us Kanchelskis and Limpar, along with some fantastic flowing football and despite having to combative players in the heart of the midfield in Horne and Parkinson (plus the useless Samways) we managed a sixth place finish. Gary Speed was also a legend for us that season.

Royle departed in a row over cash for Tore Andre Flo who at the time would have cost us less than £250,000 (he then went on to join several clubs for millions).

I feel a pang of depression returning when I think of the next 2 managers so I will spare you all the same horrible flashbacks and skip forward quickly...

David Moyes.

We all said, "David who?" when he breezed into Goodision Park for that first press conference but when he muttered those immortal words, we all knew that Mr Moyes was our own 'Special' one, and right we were.

My own highlights were the 2002-03 season when we had the best defence for years and Rooney was terrifying every oppostion player on the pitch with his youthful yet fearless approach. I remember all the fantastic away days that season (Leeds & Blackburn stand out the most) although I spent most of those trips in a drunken state.

Yes, we did progress league position wise, then dropped, then progressed, then dropped, then progressed so on.....anyway, what I am saying is that David has given us some fantastic memories.

Today, however, I am a complete and utter Tony Marsh.

Up to Saturday, I was probably a Tony Dodd or a Richard Marsh... the lovechild of the two people we know so well from these pages.

Since the full-time whistle on Saturday, I have had enough.

Here are the reasons why:

  • Poor tactical awareness
  • Negative team selection
  • Long ball approach
  • Delayed substitutions
  • No plan B
  • Strange substitution when it did come
  • No passion or commitment
  • Clear lack of leadership or guidance
  • No apology from the worst Derby performance for a long, long time
  • And, finally, worst of all, no hint of an explaination for any of the above.
No matter how hard I tried, I could not defend Moyes in any way. You may say the players are to blame; however, Moyes must have told them to play long-ball tactics, otherwise he would have changed it and scolded them for going against his plans.

It is not good enough.

Wimbledon only won the games they did in the 80s and 90s because they were hard as nails and struck fear into the opposition. As far as I can see, the only team scared on the pitch when we are involved is us.

That is why I sit here and state with no hesitation:

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reader Comments

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Mike McLean
1   Posted 01/10/2008 at 06:35:43

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I look forward to Mr. Dodd’s next attempt to persuade us that the parrot is not dead but merely resting - as was, of course, only to be expected. Any prudent, self aware parrot, and most certainly its more intelligent, informed and sensitive admirers would appreciate just how much had been achieved in changing its position from upright to tits up.
Stef Chedgzoy
2   Posted 01/10/2008 at 06:44:00

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I would have to be in Tony's gang, if you cut through a lot of his venomous crap, he speaks a hell of a lot of sense... while Doddy, passionate as he is, is just a suger-coated flower-powered hippie spreading the love (or bollocks as I see it). If we can see what's wrong, why can't the Moyesiah, who reached his peak a while back.
Matty L
3   Posted 01/10/2008 at 07:37:11

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Tony Marsh all the way, always said he was right. Moyes has finally been found out by even his most loyal followers.
Derek Thomas
4   Posted 01/10/2008 at 08:13:51

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You were Doddy but you had an excuse of were only 13. Richard how ever, you are old enough to know better

Moyes is a torn and broken man, you can’t run with the hare and the hounds. It would probably be in his own interests and piece of mind to go.

Full respect for the work done under difficult circumstances (BK KW DK)

Champions League for integrity.

Championship for 451/hofball and tactics.
Andy Crooks
5   Posted 01/10/2008 at 08:27:18

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Antony,I’d be with you and Tony on this.Not just because of your argument but because I believe that Richard has been winding us up all summer.I think his comment on the post regarding whether or not BK wants to sell confirms this.Of course the possibility exists that he might actually be insane.
Connor Rohrer
6   Posted 01/10/2008 at 08:32:14

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Both talk alot of bollocks to be fair, both go way over the top aswell.

I’m willing to let the season roll on and see what happens, Tony Marsh was posting identical stuff this time last year and we all know what happened.

We’ll see, there’s still along season ahead. I side with neither though, I have my own views and I’m sure alot of other posters do aswell.
Terry Holland
7   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:01:08

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Why are so many taking great delight in the IDEA!! that it has all gone tits up.

As many people have said we were in a similair position last year and we all know what happened then.

For me to many supporters are just wishing Moyes and the team Fail just so they can come on here and post an article saying they were right.

Brendan McLaughlin
8   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:13:27

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Jesus football management must be a piece of piss. Just look at at the list of weaknesses inherent in David Moyes according to this article and he still managed a 4th, 5th & 6th in recent years.

Thats it! Fuck this window-cleaning lark! Where did I put that application form for the vacancy at Newcastle?
Barry Bragg
9   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:17:45

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Generally speaking when looking to obtain a concensus opinion/value you would remove all extremes from the equation so for that reason you will probably find your average fan stuck somewhere between the two camps.

The major difference is how vocal people become based on current form. Last season Marsh virtually dissappeared from the radar because results were generally good while so far this season he has been like a pig in the proverbial because results are bad and he can vent spleen once again.

Dodd on the other hand is making the odd muted comment here and there just to keep his hand in while he waits for the season to get going and he can safely put his head above the parapet again.

Personally I am filled with sadness at the current form but I think things will turn around and we will get on a run again like we do most seasons. Let’s hope that starts on Thursday. If not Marsh will probably need a new keyboard by the weekend.

Richard Harris
10   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:19:32

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Anthony Jaras wrote "Up to Saturday, I was probably a Tony Dodd or a Richard Marsh... the lovechild of the two people we know so well from these pages".
Well they do say that opposites attract in a relationship, so Anthony is the (now not so) secret lovechild of Tony Marsh and Richard Dodd :0)
How did this happen we may ask ?
Stef Chedgzoy wrote " I would have to be in Tony’s gang, he speaks a hell of a lot of sense... while Doddy, passionate as he is, is just a suger-coated flower-powered hippie spreading the love ".
Ah, a passionate hippie and a man who talks sense ! Did Richard charm Tony with his flower power prose or was Richard won over by Tony’s strong and no nonsense approach ? Who said all the drama took place on the pitch and in the boardroom :0)
Mike McLean
11   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:34:20

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Terry, why do you think anyone takes delight in the situation? It is completely possible that Mr. Dodd is not the subject of a care order and that his opinions are not the wild ramblings of a diseased ridden mind. If that is the case, then hats off to him and those agree with him.

On th other hand, the club may be in crisis. I happen to believe the latter. It gives me no pleasure at all.
Mike Evans
12   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:12:17

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I am with Connor on this. What Anthony’s well-written article demonstrates is that we are almost being forced now to decide between whether to support the views of Tony Marsh and Richard Dodd.That’s because their views are built upon clear cut, black and white "absolute" truths. Whilst I support the right of both them to express their views, let’s be honest if we won the Premiership + Champions league etc Tony would still be DM’s biggest critic. Whatever wrongs BK has committed, Richard will continue to look upon him with adoring, sycophantic eyes. So we are left with complete polar opposites which try to suck you into their camps like black holes. I am 45 year old man who accepted many, many years ago that supporting Everton is not an easy job but one that I do out of love. I will not be bullied by either camp. As Connor said, I have my own views on the current situation and I too agree that many other Evertonians do as well.
Anthony Jaras
13   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:51:58

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Right, a couple of things to add to my article, perhaps I should have included the line;

"If you had to choose which end of the spectrum do you CURRENTLY lean towards, which would you be?".

BRENDAN MCLAUGHLIN, I am talking about this season here and now when I refer to the negative aspects of David Moyes recent behaviour when it come to his approach to and in games, not last season or before.

At the moment, this season, he has been a let down as have most of the players, but it’s the attitude and tactics of Moyes and co. which has caused our poor start and abysmal showings.
Ciarán McGlone
14   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:56:19

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Essentially it’s a case of realism versus optimism - being espoused through the hegemony of two mutually exclusive types of Evertonian...

Personally I’m off the Marsh variety - a variety that needs to rant about the negatives - simply for the reason that the negatives are the things that sit heavy on my whole Everton experience...

And also by virtue that those negatives are the things that ultimately need to be fixed!

By being eternally positive, the Dodds of this world, ignore the problems and placate their continuing persistance.

Thats not an option for the this Marsh-ite.
Terry Holland
15   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:14:22

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So Anthony, what you are saying is that after a handful of games we should sack our manager because we are having a bad run.

An his past record means nothing.

neil patten
16   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:16:09

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If you think it is bad now wait until the end of the month after we have played Arsenal, Utd, and Bolton away! Thursday and Sunday are absolutely "must win" games!!!!
John Lloyd
17   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:10:13

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Only here would two of the most extreme(-ly idiotic) two posters be the two we have to put our flags in?? I know our summer & season start has been frustrating, poor & not what we want or expect but for anyone to say Tony Marsh talks sense is amazing! The man who wants us to go out of all competitions, who said Yakubu was a waste of space when we bought him, Lescott would be a crock???? And who’s mood & pieces are often confused with a kopite on the wind up more often than not.

That is not to say that Richard Dodd is any better, his deluded opinion like a 6 year old is hilariously of reality! And his kenwright is the greatest & Moyes can do no wrong shouts are pitiful.

If I had to pick one, I simply wouldnt because they come across as a pair of bell-ends.
Dermot Dinan
18   Posted 01/10/2008 at 09:12:34

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Opposing views almost always lend a public vehicle like the’Fan Articles’ (thanks btw to the admin) an entertaining slant.

I have no doubt that some of the more outrageous comments from both Doddy and Marshy are weighted to draw a response .

TM is way ahead in this contest in my view.

That said,and personal attacks aimed at DM in the past aside,it’s clear to me that TM has been supremely consistent in his main points about the manager’s tactics,indecision and level of ambition on the pitch.

This is surely what matters to the paying supporters.I for one,have been nothing short of embarrassed by our set up,style,and lately results.This at a time when EFC have been ’enjoying’ plenty of TV coverage and therefore coming under the microscope for all to see.

" Tony Marsh was posting identical stuff this time last year and we all know what happened."

I have to assume from this quote Connor, that you regard last season’s achievements as more than acceptable.

It his here that we part company.

A ’best of the rest’ 5th place finish and EUFA cup spot may look good to a e.g Wigan fan but to me it is a ’band-aid on a gaping wound’.

When the big games came around we were poor both in tactics and set-up and therefore performance on the pitch.

I would highlight the first leg in Fiorentina and the CC semi at Goodison as the worst examples of these shortcomings.

Saturday just saw more of the same,but to set up the way we did against the RS indicates just how far DM is really behind in the tactics game.Add to that the contempt shown by ’their’ set-up and the humiliation is complete.

I can’t listen to any more ’the defence just went AWOL’ ... The manager and coaching staff should move heaven and earth to find out why seasoned pros along with talented youngsters alike,are panicking when the ball comes near them.What does Steve Round do in training FFS ?.I don’t want to make him the scapegoat because he is an easy target and the problems existed long before his arrival.

No amount of ’blue blinkers’ can disguise the fact that we are woeful to watch and with the odd exception against a non-top 4 side,have been for years..Just ask any neutral fan.

It is the failure or unwillingness to change the ethics of our approach that puts DM in the firing line and naturally in Marshy’s sights.

In life we all need to take calculated risks from time to time and when Moysey comes to write his book,he will wish he had made more of his time at Everton and done something outstanding instead of the waste by negativity we have had to endure to date..
Anthony Jaras
19   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:28:36

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Past is past and present is present.

It’s like saying that you should stay with your Mrs even though you don’t love her anymore just cos you once did.

Past record means nothing if it is having a negative impact on the club, and it clearly is.

Are you happy with the shite hoofball you are seeing this season and the back end of last season?

Are you happy with Moyes negative tactics against most teams?

Are you happy with the start we have had?

Are you happy with us not using our midfield, especially after paying £15million for Fellaini?

Are you happy with mediocrity?

If you can answer yes to any of these questions then Moyes is your man cos he has taken us as far as he is ever gonna!!!!

Richard Harris
20   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:27:15

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Terry Holland wrote " So Anthony, what you are saying is that after a handful of games we should sack our manager because we are having a bad run".
Didn’t the bad run start back in the first leg against Fiorentina ? Ah, some may say that what happened last season doesn’t count and we are now into a new season so the positives/negatives should only count from then. Except that it’s not going very well at the moment !! When does a slump become a problem that needs a radical solution ? We can’t get any new in-contract players in until the next transfer window, getting a new manager in now may create more problems than it solves and it doesn’t look likely that we will have new owners in the near future while Bill Kenwright holds on to his ’toy’. So if we stay as we are then the players must take responsibility on the pitch and use their skills better and David Moyes must get some new positive tactics.
Anthony Jaras
21   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:36:19

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Terry, it’s not just the bad run that worries me, it’s the lack of effort, passion and negative tactics and approach that worries me.

We are not even fighting in games, if we were then we would have some hope but we are like a bunch of girls on the pitch, Moyes has lost the dressing room in my opinion.
Connor Rohrer
22   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:35:42

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"I have to assume from this quote Connor, that you regard last season?s achievements as more than acceptable."

Yes it was Dermot, very acceptable to be honest and I enjoyed spells in the season whereas in the past I haven’t under David Moyes. 5th place is a good finish, a realistic finish and we had two decent cup runs aswell.

What I’m saying is Tony Marsh reacts like he always reacts, far too soon. He did it last season and was proved wrong big time. It could still happen this season, I’m not saying it will but I’d like to wait and see.
Terry Beeken
23   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:38:40

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Lets give fellaini a chance he,s come into a team thats currently going through its "pre season" in september
we were woefully under prepared in august!!
Whos fault is this Bills? for not having enough money to get players in early or Moyes for wanting to only bring players in who can improve his team?
Either way i do,nt think we can blame the players, they need a leader and at the minute no one at the club seems to want the job!!!
Paul Lenehan
24   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:54:37

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Get rid of Moyes and replace him with who? Im not having a go im genuinely interested in who people who want Moyes out would realistically like to see brought in.
Ciarán McGlone
25   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:00:26

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I’m also genuinely interested in why you expect fans to provide workable alternatives before deciding the current one is spiralling out of control!
Anthony Jaras
26   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:59:00

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Terry Beeken, you get me wrong mate, I like Fellaini, what I am saying is that we should be using the midfield instead of hoofing it from back to frony all the time.

Paul Lenehan, well, it’s a tough one but let’s have a look at the obvious choices;

Bilic - Croatia play great football and despite the England defeat have a great record under him.

We regrettably missed out on him but Mark Hughes would have been a great choice, however his ex-Utd team mate Steve Bruce has never been given a chance at a big club and he has got Wigan playing with great fire, enthusiasm and skill.

John Collins is doing well north of the border too, however, another young long as he promotes the sort of passing football he was used to as a player then I would not complain.

Maybe we could do with a bit of foreign management style for a change???

Those three names above were top players and all played in sides that like to pass the ball, maybe it’s the fact that Moyes never really cut it at the top that he let’s his defensive style take over his way of thinking?

Bruce played in arguably the best ever Premiership team, Bilic played in a passing West Ham side and Collins was one of the most accomplished passers of the ball in Europe.

Just a few suggestions off the top of my head.

We do need a change though.
Connor Rohrer
27   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:15:33

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Henk ten Cate?

I think he’s be worth a try if we where changing managers. He’s managing in Greece at the moment, I’m sure a big wage and the prospect of managing in English football would be interesting for him.

Just a suggesstion like, if your looking for someone who will preach good football then he’s worth a go. Obviously he might be out of our range but you’ve always got to try.
Mike Evans
28   Posted 01/10/2008 at 10:59:33

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"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs..." Am I happy with the start we have made - NO. Am I happy with the safety first, percentage, negative football we often play - NO. Whose fault is it ? A mixture of BK, DM and the players. What do I do now as a supporter? I could call for Moyes to be sacked however my football knowledge tells me that those clubs that have stability fair better than the Newcastles etc of this world. I could get on the back of the players e.g Fallaini but that will merely make a promising player go into his shell (weren’t Arsenal fans moaning about Henry when he first arrived?). I could wish for the "good old days" of 9,000 gates, seats cascading onto the pitch and such leading footballing talents as Brett Angel. What I will be doing is keeping my head, gritting my teeth and carrying on supporting the club through very choppy waters.
Michael Dawson
29   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:16:10

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Well said Connor - there are some seriously I don’t understand how anyone can see last season’s performance as less than acceptable.

As for everyone’s two favourite contributors, whenever one of them makes a point I can see myself agreeing with, they follow it up with some bitter, abusive bollocks (Marsh), or deluded, childlike dross (Dodd). John Lloyd is absolutely right - both appear to be bellends of the highest order.
EJ Ruane
30   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:29:13

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I wasn’t sure, so I asked ’Lawro’.

"To be fair the lad Marsh has done Dodd up like a Kipper. He’s all over the place! Let me just stop things here and highlight a couple of things. Here for instance (draws red circle around "we need to get behind the lads") and here (draws another red circle around "Moyes will do the business"), there’s no defence and gaps all over the place, it’s a joke"
Terry Beeken
31   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:42:06

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Point taken Anthony, i agree the one time on saturday i thought we looked a threat was when Felliani ran with the ball at the redshite, something we,ve been lacking since mad dogs one good season with us.
Andy Crooks
32   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:25:13

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Paul,Bilic is a proven coach who plays attractive football.He’ll be cheaper than David Moyes.I think we need a fresh approach. For a more radical change ,how about Hoddle?I’m sure we could get either.
Mike McLean
33   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:40:55

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Forget the stability already! Utd and Arsenal have stability because their managers coach teams to win things. Yes, Utd gave Feguso a COUPLE of years grace but not the six and half we?re talking about.

And Real Madrid? They seem to cope with a different coach after every meal and still win championships.

Moyes coached average players to play out of their skins. He seems to have lost that ability - at least for a while - so what?s the point of him being there?
Simple Simon
34   Posted 01/10/2008 at 11:51:51

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Andy Crooks: I keep saying that Hoddle would be a really good prospect. The only reason he’s outside of the PL management loop is because of his daft religious comments some years ago. I’d take Hoddle over Moyes any day. At least we’d get some passing football. Anything is better than this hoofball shite that Moyes serves up on a weekly basis. Plus I’m sick and tired of looking at Moyes pulling his face and acting as though he’s better than Everton. I’ve news for you David, Everton is the biggest club you’ll ever manage, and it’s far bigger than you’ll ever be. Man Utd will not be coming in for you when SAF retires.
Paul Lenehan
35   Posted 01/10/2008 at 12:10:09

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Ciaran, you are making assumptions about how I am thinking. I don’t need alternative suggestions before I make my mind up. I don’t know where you got that from. I know my own thoughts. I was simply interested to see who other people would like to see take over.

I think there is no question that Moyes got it horribly wrong in the derby. I also agree that if Moyes didn’t want this long ball game then we wouldn’t be watching it. My only concern is that rash decisions are rarely good ones and there are not that many candidates out there who are better than Moyes and who are realistic targets. Although I definitely take Andy and Anthony’s point that Bilic could fit the bill. He certainly has Croatia playing proper football.
Anthony Hawkins
36   Posted 01/10/2008 at 12:04:33

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I sit with one foot in either camp - whether through complete denial or preferring to consider myself as someonewhat of an optimist, I choose to take the view there are lots of things wrong at the club at board level and lots of things wrong at the management level.

The question then is which impacted what first and what needs to be changed first to get things back on track.

Moyes? tactics are bourne from frustration and a desire not-to-lose. Moyes? over-riding desire is to win and to have a squad that can win. That I have no doubt about. So does Bill Kenwright.

Moyes can not build the squad he wants because Bill can not provide the money. Is that Bills fault? As the owner it is his responsibility, however he has always been open in saying that he does not have access to that level of funds so, technically, it?s not his fault.

Moyes pretty much refuses to adjust his player choice to fit the budget because "these are the players the team needs to progress". Is there anything wrong with his view? Well no because, as we all do, he wants the team to progress to the next level and they ARE the type of players Everton wants and needs - but we can?t have them. Is this Bill K?s fault? No. Moyes needs to find suitable players to fit a tight budget - something he has proven he can do.

The problem I have with extremist points of views is that no matter how poignant or correct the fundimentals of the argument, they get lost in a sea of other "stuff". Tony Marsh does have some good points but they are hidden in a lot of bull. Richard Dodd has equally good points but when the negative (or realism) is completely ignored, it gets lost in a sea of red roses. Neither view feels correct so both views get chucked out.

The essence of it all is that for all the love for the club BK has, he can not provide the money it so desperately requires. For all the desire and desperation DM has, he can not (or doesn?t seem able to) adjust his for a team which, in his opinion, doesn?t have the players or strength it should.

Does this mean they both have to go? May be. If Moyes does not find a way to temper his outlook, it wont be a case of "should he go?" he will have to be pushed because his desire exceeds the clubs ability to meet it.

A high level of desire is only aa good thing when it is tempered correctly. Should Moyes move on where would he go? The only places he could go where they have the money to meet his desire are the top 4, Spurs and Man City. Make of that what you will.

BK has had his time and I think needs to go. In the meanwhile it would help a lot if he could stop with the lieing and tell us straight what the true situation is. Positive thinking is a great attribute to have (talking up the fortress funds, Kings Docks, DK, new signings etc) but complete denial that anything negative can happen (FF, no cash, Kings Docks, DK) doesn?t get anyone anywhere.

It?s the above reasons why I refuse to llevel all the blame on one side of the fence or the other. Both sides have to accept responsibility for their portion of the current situation and both have to work very hard to resovle it.

Moyes can start by getting us through thursday night!!!!!!!
Keith Harrison
37   Posted 01/10/2008 at 12:58:04

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Anyone else noticed that neither Doddy or Marshy (they sound more human that way) have posted a response on here.

They are poles apart in opinions, and like previous posts, I would raise my standard in neither camp, but prefer to meander in between with the ebb and flow of our beloved team.

I would, however, wear my wellies, as I am drawn inexorably towards the marshlands.
Ciarán McGlone
38   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:02:14

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Fair enough Paul..

You see so many apologists using the old ’You’ve no alternative’ argument that it becomes second nature to assume that it’s use is only for dismissal purposes..

Personally I don’t think Moyes should go at the we’d still be left with the original problem - Kenwright.

It’s certainly a problem of the catch 22 variety that suggests that being an Evertonian will not become a pleasurable experience any time in the forseeable future.
Mike Evans
39   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:05:13

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Beware the marshlands. I’ve heard that a man can get bogged down in shit there and then start to feel very bitter.
Craig Taylor
40   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:08:03

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I point you to my post the other day (Titled ?Moyes out? in sarcasm). To say that past seasons do not count for anything is ludicrous. People like you have called for his head before, but he always fights back and gets the team firing again.

It is far to early to suggest changing the manager, and I?d say this even if we were in Spurs position. But especially when Moyes has built us back up to being a real name within English football, as well as Europe.

He deserves games to bring it around. And I have every faith that he will do.
Richard Harris
41   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:21:20

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Keith Harrison wrote "Anyone else noticed that neither Doddy or Marshy (they sound more human that way) have posted a response on here".

Maybe they are getting together to produce another ’lovechild’ so that Anthony Jaras can have a brother or sister :0)
Steve Ashton
42   Posted 01/10/2008 at 12:47:26

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I was trying to visualise Richard Dodd after watching us win a trophy!!

Then I thought who would you like as a drinking buddy?

Tony Marsh - miserable as sin, then just when things start to go well you don’t see him again for 6 months until he can come and spread more gloom.

Richard Dodd - always there even when things are so bad you think they can’t get worse. I can imagin him rushing into the pub after a 5-0 home defeat and going ’did you see that throw in that Hibbo took in the 54th minute, man that was great’
May be completely off his head and I may not agree with him but I think I know who I prefer.

We are now mortgaged up to the hilt so expect no money signings in Jan unless we sell. If that is the case there will be no big name manager if DM does go.

So realistically unless the 6th richest man in the world puts his hands in his pocket we just have to put up with what we have. Simple as that.

Do I sound like Tony Marsh - hope not!

Anthony Jaras
43   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:40:03

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Craig Taylor, this is the first time I have EVER called for David Moyes’ head.
Ciarán McGlone
44   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:39:19

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Would your somewhat self-defeating point that ’people have been calling for his head before’...not seem to suggest that he is repeating mistakes?
Jamie Evans
45   Posted 01/10/2008 at 13:53:00

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Which of you everton fans thought that when Moyes took over though that we would win the league in the years gone by.....because if you did you need to go see a doctor....

He has had to work hard to close the gap and put us in a decent position.... it is going to be even harder to take us up another level.... but if we have to take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward then I would support the guy!

Some of you sound bitter and as clueless as geordies who expect their team to win every time playing ?sexy football?.

l'll support the guy and the team... it will help!
Anthony Jaras
46   Posted 01/10/2008 at 14:30:01

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Jamie, the problem is, we ain’t winning games.

If I were to choose between winning every game playing hoofball, or winning half with sext exciting attractive football, I would have the hoofball every time.

The issue is that we are losing most games playing hoofball.

We ain’t even showing fight, we are losing games without even putting in a good shift.

Don’t paper over the cracks by saying we want to win all our games by being pretty.

Having a go at playing football on the ground and putting up a bit of a scrap would be a start, we have not done that in a long while, back end of last season included.

Moyes clearly loves hoofball and has lost the dressing room, it’s so clear to see nobody is fighting for him anymore, and he does not seem arsed about it either.
Richard Dodd
47   Posted 01/10/2008 at 14:39:45

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Frankly, Keith Harrison, I don?t know whether to feel honoured or offended to share a headline with Tony Marsh.

Perhaps a little both. Flattered in the sense that I should be mentioned in the same breath as a man revered as a Toffeeweb icon whilst offended to be linked, however tenuously, with the blaggard leader of the ?Out, Out Movement?! All I can say in my defence is that I love my fellow man, think the world of Everton FC and the people who control its destiny, and suspect that I get a very great deal more pleasure in this world by being positive than those who see only the dark side.

I hate injustice and, therefore, see it as vital that someone stands up for the people who work so hard in the Everton cause but get only brick-bats in return.

Ben Jones
48   Posted 01/10/2008 at 15:00:34

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Neither!! To be honest, I’d rather concentrate in supporting my team and hoping all the time they win their next games.

Still.. it’d be funny seeing the two in a debate... constanty contradicting eachother.
Ian Tunny
49   Posted 01/10/2008 at 16:35:45

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For all those calling for the head of Moyes, If i didn't Love Everton so much id love Moyes to leave just to prove how vital he is for Everton and how wrong you doubters are. It wouldn?t be long before Everton are back where they where, in relegation battles and probably even relegated. All would suddenly realise what they had and would beg for Moyes return.
Tony Marsh
50   Posted 01/10/2008 at 16:35:05

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Must say I have to laugh at the idea I went missing last season when Everton were winning games.Why would I?You see Connor I wasnt fooled by the mini revival mid season and when so many of you where shouting from the rooftops about what trophies we would win and 4th place was a certainty I kept shctum.The reason being I knew all along the wheels would come off once we reached crunch time.They always do under DM.I left it to you and others to make fools of themselves and I just tried to enjoy what little there was to like about that period.

Thrashing Sunderland and Boltons of this world is one thing but Chelsea in the semis and Flroentina in the quarters was another,In the end the season was a disaster from the position we where in at the start of December.PLEASE tell if you can because I must of missed it but what did we end up winning??????
Jamie Evans
51   Posted 01/10/2008 at 16:59:25

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We can’t replace a manager just 6 games in to the new season....he will turn it around....Ihope!

And please don’t start using the end of last season’s bad results against us Moyes fans get told to forget about past seasons when sticking up for him!

It took Ferguson approx 3-4 years to turn United round 20 years todays football think how harder and how much longer is required....remember Moyes submissted an ambitious 5 year plan to the board when contract negotiations those 5 years I’d back him to succeed!
Terry Knight
52   Posted 01/10/2008 at 17:57:38

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Well apparently he’s only wanting a four year deal (as long as its at £4M a year) so if it’s an extension to his present contract he’ll have done 10 years by the time it’s finished.
That should be long enough to convince EVERYBODY that he’ll win us nowt-that’s if any of us will still be interested!
Harvey Smith
53   Posted 01/10/2008 at 17:39:18

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They’re both symptomatic of this celebrity-obsessed age. Most readers will agree with the essence of messages posted by both contributors. However, in their rush to remain in the limelight and ahead of all their wannabe disciples, they have to come out with increasingly extreme views. And they will continue to antagonise and wind people up as that is the only way they can retain their positions. One views himself as a traditional, no bollocks hard man and the other as the font of optimism.

As to where I sit, I’m desperately disappointed that we sometimes fail perform even the basics correctly. When we’re on song, we’re really’s just the periods of shitness in between seem to go on for ages. I refuse to believe that Moyes sends his teams out with the explicit instructions to play long ball...what would that mean for the periods when we’re on song? Did the players rebel against him? I think not.

My own particular theory is that we all know about the legend of Moyes’ Everton...tight knit squad and all that, team bonding activities in the States and all that. Well, I think that when the chips are down and things aren’t going our way, our players lack belief in themselves and crucially in each other. And that’s something that DM needs to sort out sharp-ish as it’s been a problem for far too long. In fact I think it was in his first full season with us that we developed a knack of becoming the comeback kings...since then, if we go a goal down, you might as well go home! We try to play football but invariably, a few passes with that ball and it looks like it’s a nuclear we launch it in hope.

We’re not the only ones by the way, look at Team In-ger-land....players that perform, week in, week out, to a decent standard in both the PL and the Champions League suddenly start lumping balls forward when the chips are down. Is that Capello/McClown/Ericsson’s fault?’s a virtual carbon copy of what happens to our team.

So replace David Moyes if you must, but unless his successor can get the players’ heads right, you’re going to be moaning again when the honeymoon is over.
Dermot Dinan
54   Posted 01/10/2008 at 16:53:26

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Connor ...

"It could still happen this season,I’m not saying it will but I’d like to wait and see."

I don’t suppose we are going to agree any time soon Connor but I have a feeling you won’t have to wait long.

As far as I know our next 5 games take in a trip to S.Liege tomorrow where we are up against it to say the least,Newcastle at home with the spectre of Michael Owen lurking in an otherwise dysfunctional team,2 fixtures against top 4 sides,followed by a battle with Bolton.

That’s all fine with me because we are capable of delivering a performance against all of them.

However,knowledge of this alone isn’t going to make it happen.We lack confidence because we are conceding goals early.Game plans (such as they are) go up in smoke because there is no fallback position or Plan B as it’s now known.

Communication wasn’t a problem during our good run of results last season so wtf has happened to us ? We are not talking at the back because there is no natural leader on the pitchand here is no getting away from the fact that we are in complete disarray in defence.

We haven’t got time to ask the question why this is ? because the next five games will happen all too quickly.

Rather,the question has got to be .. who have we got to take on the role of a Terry,Ferdinand or Gallas.

The manager, bawling out his instructions non-stop to all and sundry,would give the impression no such leader is necessary.

The Sky 4 teams think differently.

Well that’s just it isn’t it ? ... and Boy ! do they think differently.

Connor you accuse Marshy of going ’off’ too soon but in my book it’s already later than any of us think.

Connor Rohrer
55   Posted 01/10/2008 at 18:01:47

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Tony Marsh,

Why are you mentioning my name? I don’t think I’ve said you went missing, it certainly wasn’t me who said that in this thread.

What I said is you react for to early which is spot on. I remember your post after the game against Metalist last season. You claimed we’d get knocked out and you said we’d struggle in the League. How wrong you where.

We had a good season last year, delude yourself all you want but I know we did and I was happy with it. Could we improve and push on? Ofcourse we and there’s still alot of time to do that this season. Could things have gone better last season? Again, ofcourse they could.

We didn’t win a trophy, very few teams do outside the "top four" to be honest. Spurs and Portsmouth did last season yes and we did in 95 but other than that the top four have dominated.

I’m realistic, I know it’s a hard thing to do due to the gap in quality and money between Chelsea, Man utd, Liverpool and Arsenal to the rest of us. That’s just the way it is.

I was happy with last season, I’ve said that time and time again.
Richard Murray
56   Posted 01/10/2008 at 18:16:06

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Hah! My first match was Norwich 5-1 with Ekoku... I also sat in the front row of the Gwladys St. that day.. behind the goal.. when he banged in, was it, four?

Maybe this is why I don’t have very high expectations for my Everton.
Connor Rohrer
57   Posted 01/10/2008 at 18:14:06

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Dermot Dinan, which is why I said wait and see before you react so quickly. Anything can happen in those games, that’s football for you.

If we keep on losing and putting in these awful performances then people have a right to be annoyed and say things like "Moyes out."

At the moment though I think it is a little early, I’d rather wait a few games like I said the previous season to Tony. We are virtually in the same position as then, we changed it around then and anything can happen now.

That’s just my opinion though. You could be right but we’ll have to wait and see.
Keith Glazzard
58   Posted 01/10/2008 at 19:16:33

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Moyes Out! ?? Walter Smith seems to be doing quite well. Lets get him back shall we? A wise old Oldham supporter mate of mine said when I asked him why Smith was rubbish - "I could manage Rangers" he said. Moyes has taken us out of that.

We all think that we are at a crossroads - a crisis point if you wish. This involves the team, the manager, the ownership and the location of the club. Everyone can state their opinion, but some people think they can change the one thing they want,and keep everything else the same way its always been.

It doesn’t usually work that way.
Anthony Jaras
59   Posted 01/10/2008 at 20:30:48

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Richard Murray, I too was front row, behind the goal. Nice to see you again ha ha!!!
Jimmy Crack
60   Posted 01/10/2008 at 22:08:15

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I agree with Dodd AND Marsh.

Swish that around in your mouth...
Roy Jones
61   Posted 02/10/2008 at 00:12:55

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All you Moyes supporters are stuck in the past (and up Moyes's arse). When we're in the Championship next year come and post your support for the inept David Moyes, because you won?t because you will be saying we should of got rid of this idiot early last season before it was to late.

David Moyes has sadly took the club as far as he can and even he knows it, i say this because of his attitude and body language appears to be negative. Let's get rid now.

Tony Marsh is a LEGEND!
Andrew Conroy
62   Posted 02/10/2008 at 01:01:19

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Anthony Jaras, when I saw the words ’Collins’ and ’Bruce’ in your post, my heart fluttered rather like it did on those moments when I saw ’Ginola’ and ’Gemmil’ on the Everton teamsheet.

I know that these are solid and honest men who’ve done a job of sorts in football’s arse end, but for all our obvious problems, these names do your ’Moyes Out’ rant no favours at all with me!!!

If Evertonians’ fantasies have become so pragmatic things are much worse than I thought.
Anthony Jaras
63   Posted 02/10/2008 at 10:15:40

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Andrew, I see what you are saying, but what makes you think that Moyes is any greater than the two afformentioned managers???

Both managers promote passing football, (We play hoofball) both were top players (Moyes was not).

Both are doing great jobs at their respective clubs on ’Shoestring’ budjets.

Both are well respected in the football world by players and managers alike (Moyes seems to have lost the dressing room).

Answer this;

Would you rather we played cowardly Hoofball all season or played the passing and committed style that Wigan seem to be playing?
Patty Beesley
64   Posted 02/10/2008 at 10:23:49

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Never in a million years would I back someone like Tony Marsh who is so full of crap, vitriol and bile, and I hate him for the insulting and cowardly way he attacks David Moyes, a man who I believe to be honest and full of integrity. I wonder whether TM would be so quick to say the things he does about David if he had to say them face to face - probably not, he would probably be a coward - most people who knife people in the back usually are. Neither am I an ardent fan of Richard Dodd as he goes "over the top" in a different way. No, I am my own person. I have supported EFC for 50 years through thick and thin and I ain?t about to change now for love or money..
Andrew Conroy
65   Posted 02/10/2008 at 10:57:06

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’Would you rather we played cowardly Hoofball all season or played the passing and committed style that Wigan seem to be playing?’

Anthony, that’s a strange and rather loaded question; one that flatters Wigan and does us a disservice. For reasons that have been covered ad nauseam on Toffeeweb, there’s no doubt that we’ve looked pretty shoddy in the main so far this season. But it’s not strictly accurate to suggest that all we’ve mustered up til now is ’cowardly hoofball’. Much of the disappointment of early 2008-09 seems to be down to us struggling to consistently replicate the joined-up footie that started to appear last season. It’s been there in tantalising flashes, which is making our frailties and inconsistensies all the more frustrating.

I’m very nervous about what’s going to happen over the next few weeks with things on and off the pitch. And although I take your point, whatever happens I’m certainly not about to hope that we start taking our footballing cues from bloody Wigan Athletic!!

However, I do wish that we’d taken our physical cues from Wigan RLFC in the derby.
Connor Rohrer
66   Posted 02/10/2008 at 11:24:06

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"Would you rather we played cowardly Hoofball all season or played the passing and committed style that Wigan seem to be playing?"

Anthony Jaras, Steve Bruce was known for playing back to front football at Birmingham, ask any Birmingham fan and they’ll tell you how it was. When he first took over at Wigan they also played hoofball. Now he’s added players like Palacios and Zaki to players like Valencia, Koumas and Heskey etc and there playing some decent stuff. He doesn’t promote good football at all, he’s just added players who are capable of pass and move.

We did exactly the same last season when we had Pienaar, Osman, Cahill, Yakubu and Arteta on the pitch. We played good football, we wheren’t hoofing like we usually do and we where very decent to watch like Wigan are at the moment.

Sadly this season we’ve been disjointed in midfield and it’s all gone wrong. Cahill’s only just coming back into it, Osman having to play on the wings where he doesn’t make an impact and Pienaar who is a key player has been out for ages.

I think once we get those players back together we’ll start playing some good stuff again, I don’t see why we won’t. When you’ve got players who want the ball and are capable on the ball you’l improve. Wigan have that at the moment, we do not.

I don’t think Moyes has lost the dressing room, has you got any proof about this?
Duncan McDine
67   Posted 02/10/2008 at 11:19:09

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When Everton lose or put in a shocking performance at Goodison (which has happened too often of late) most of us on the bus back to town hang our heads and sulk. But why is it that I’m crammed up against the ’Tony Marsh’ on the bus who has to let everyone know that he’s hurting more than anyone else? The club owe him a tremendous debt, and owe him answers when we’re not lifting trophies every year. God forbid anyone who doesn’t agree with him... they can’t be as much of an Everton fan as he can they?

Just think about the term ’Everton fan’. That’s what we are, nothing more. The Tony Marshes of this world need to start acting like one.

Got nowt to say about RD. All I know is I’d rather be on the bus with a happy loudmouth than an angry loudmouth.
Anthony Jaras
68   Posted 02/10/2008 at 12:00:53

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Connor, do you think the players look like they are playing their hearts out for the manager?

I don’t.
Anthony Jaras
69   Posted 02/10/2008 at 12:03:00

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Also Connor, you kinda re-inforce my point when you say that Bruce is known for playing hoofball but then it changed cos he broung in a couple of good footballers.

We play hoofball despite the fact we have already got some good footballers in midfield so don’t you think that is the problem straight away?????
Connor Rohrer
70   Posted 02/10/2008 at 12:28:24

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Anthony Jaras,

I’ve seen no lack of commitment from the players to be honest. I’ve seen a lack of quality and I think they’ve been set out wrong in terms of tactics and outlook on the game.

The derby looked like that because we where standing off them and giving them space, it wasn’t due to lack of commintment of workrate.

Do we have some good footballers in the side? Osman is a nothing player on the wing and I’d say Arteta is our only creative influence at the moment and he’s stuck outwide.

Wigan are playing good football because they are at full strength. They’ve got players like Palacios, De Ridder, Koumas, Valencia, Zaki, Heskey etc all battling for places and working in tandem.

We’d play good football if we had Arteta on the right, Pienaar on the left and Osman in a more central role where he’s comfortable. That’s when we are at our best, sadly injuries have kept them apart.

We have yet to field our strongest side this season. Baines, Osman, Rodwell and Neville have all tried to do jobs outwide and it hasn’t worked, we have no balance. Pienaar is coming back now and hopefully Fellaini and Castillo can finally bed in.
Craig Taylor
71   Posted 02/10/2008 at 12:44:08

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Ciaran, if Moyes has made so many bad mistakes in the past that have basically made us the best of the rest (ie minus sky 4) then I for one would not mind him doing them again. Sure we need to progress but with what is available to the bloke he has done a fucking brilliant job. It Kenwright who needs to step aside to get someone who can back Moyes financially which is the main thing that is missing from Moyes taking us back into the top 4.

Anthony it may be your first time but the very fact you have associated yourslef to being like Marsh puts you in to the category of those who have previously called for his head.

I thank you.
Iain Latchford
72   Posted 02/10/2008 at 15:36:46

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We all know what’s going to happen.

Moyes will sign his new contract, then we’ll sack in January and have to pay him about £15m.

This is Everton so there is bound to be an almighty f*ck up somewhere along the way.
jem bir
73   Posted 02/10/2008 at 16:25:23

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This is rubbish. Moyes has done a stunning job with sod all resources. Saturday was abject and at times the tactics were shit, but there’s still an expectation that we’ll get into europe next year and that’s worth turning out for.
Since Moyes arrived we’ve been competetive with some cracking finishes..

I respect your right to be Tony Marsh - I’m a big fan of his, even though I agree with zip that he says.

Anyway if we do sack him which tit is going to do better?

Brian Wolf
74   Posted 02/10/2008 at 17:28:24

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I don’t care for either really.
Tony Williams
75   Posted 02/10/2008 at 17:29:33

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It will never happen, they could never meet, as they both live in their own little worlds, Doddy in cloud cookooland and it seems Marshy is in his own little pergatory (but bizzarely happy with it).....poles apart.

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