FAN ARTICLES
Is it Really All about the Stadium? I?m afraid so?
By Jamie Rowland : 01/10/2008 : 
Comments (42) :
Obtaining the correct investment is not an easy task.
Comments (42) : In fact, it's often impossible unless you have a proven track record and there is a cast-iron forecast to go with. A financial house or investment group will back a winner but the moment that there are any sort of ?odds? toward failure, they simply will not hand over.
Take Goldman Sachs for example. They are a finance house based in all the major cities around the globe. They invest daily in stocks, shares and ventures that bring return and profit. A few years ago they refused to invest (or chose not to) in a TV concept because there was too many variables affecting its success. The TV show, now a guaranteed hit in many countries, was/is X Factor. Simon Cowell, having secured the finance, must be laughing his socks off at Sachs.
But the point I am eluding to is that it's extremely difficult to make even the wildest investors part with their cash. Moving on to Everton FC, it would seem that it is impossible to secure cash without obtaining debt. The same can be seen at other clubs (LFC, CFC) etc. They are all bad investments for a group looking to make returns on a regular basis over a long-term period.
Everton FC needs work. If and Investment group was to look into the club they would succumb to certain facts that would immediately put them off:
- The Team
- The Wages
- The Costs (Agents)
- The Stadium
Take the investment group that backed Leeds Utd. They knew that they had a good grounding for success. All they needed to do was help bankroll a team. But the team became too big in an expanding market for the group to contend with and they had to pull out while the going was, just about, good. Investors take risks but at the same time they are always looking to protect. Football is massively off-balance with the rest of the financial and business world. The overheads, as a percentage, are astronomical and they never seem to reduce. This is a major concern for investors. Leeds, with their ?glory? had to match success with remuneration. The result was that the extra income didn?t result in extra profit and the investment group had to pull the plug ? the rest is history.
Then comes the costs. Agents are on the take almost around the clock. They must watch their bank accounts and compare it to the comic relief counter. The credits just keep rolling in. After this, comes the expenses. European football expenses, away games, maintenance, home game staff and security. Utility bills, environmental charges and community based charges ? the result is a massive bill. And like the wages, on that never reduces and only ever gets bigger.
The above points don?t seem to deter major investors though. They can afford to ride the waves and bob about in the troughs. They can fund an ever financially expanding team without worry and reap the satisfaction and reward on the pitch when it all comes good.
So why do none of these investors want EFC?
My last point is a sour one. The Stadium. I love Goodison Park. I have three pictures in my house of it, a key ring and a model on my work desk. It's my home from home ? the place where I worship. But it's tired and it's old and it's starting to become a liability.
Investors need results and they normally want them fast. They want to plough money into an area where milestones can be gained and successes seen. That isn?t something they can get by building a stadium. If a billionaire comes along with £500m to spend. He doesn?t want the first £300m of it spent on developing a stadium and not seeing any success. The satisfaction is just not there for the hobbyists and the return is not there for the professional investors.
The result ? we don?t get considered. The story of Everton in the 90s and the 00s? We need a new stadium and we need it now. We need to have something that catches the eye and then mesmerises once interest has been shown? we just don?t have that.
Reader Comments
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Well said, my friend. I live in NYC and 4 of the professional sports teams will open new stadiums in the next two years. The American Football teams will share the stadium as they have been for over 25 years. The two baseball teams have both built brand new ballparks that are eye-catching and expensive! The football arena will cost over a billion US dollars while the Yankees new home will be a billion three hundred. The Mets slightly less.
The ticket prices in some cases will go right through the sky. The most expensive ticket for the Yankees will be $2,800 per seat per game. The Mets will charge $750.00. The Giants are asking for a personal seat license of $5,000 which gives you ownership of your seat for re-sale in the future. That?s how these teams are funding new stadiums. That would never work in Liverpool. We have a pool of 20 million people to draw from and 8 million people went to baseball games in New York this year.
There were probably 50 football matches in Liverpool last year drawing about 2,000,000 people. That?s a fantastic accomplishment in your city! But the reality is we are seeing the slow death of EFC. When Moyes is gone (not if, when), and we become even more unsettled, and our players depart, and new ones brought in, we will face the battle of our lives. Not just for the place in the Prem, but for our place in the hearts of our supporters.
The signs are all over that we are becoming the 2nd team in a one team city. Marketing, merchandising, stadium, city council, players, managers, commentators, referees. You name it, they all think we are second class, and this slide has been going on for years. The smoke alarm has run out of battery power now. And to be honest, there isn?t a thing we can do about it.
We trusted our club to people who meant well, but didn?t have the muscle or the brains to do well. It?s like a rusting ship waiting for the next storm to take it all the way under to the bottom of the sea. And that storm is just offshore right now.
The point you are missing though Jamie is that when a potential investor wants to buy a club with a rich history of success a team loaded with international superstars and a brand new 50,000 plus stadium the cost of purchasing said club is astronomical.
A poxy outfit like Man City has just sold for £250 million because of the new ground but buying Everton would cost what? Bill Kenwright's shares plus a little drink on top? No more than £40 million I would say and BK walks. Now to me this sounds pretty cheap to buy a Premier League club so your arguement fals flat on its face.
A poxy outfit like Man City has just sold for £250 million because of the new ground but buying Everton would cost what? Bill Kenwright's shares plus a little drink on top? No more than £40 million I would say and BK walks. Now to me this sounds pretty cheap to buy a Premier League club so your arguement fals flat on its face.
Tony Marsh,
It doesn?t quite fall flat on its face simply because - if you have to buy out BK, who holds around 8000 shares (priced around £1,500 each) - then whether £40m would suffice or not is irrelevant. The arguement is that the investor is not looking towards what it costs to actually acquire shares (that is nominal) but more at what it costs to move forward.
New ground? £200-300M
MOney for team? £100M
Money to buy? £40M -
Hopefully the point can be seen. Man City canact as a play thing for the rich - who are obviously bored with the detail. Everton is not a toy whilst it has to go through a major project such as a stadium build - that will bring nothing but headaches and big bill...
Its really nothing to do with the purchase price that BK wants...
It doesn?t quite fall flat on its face simply because - if you have to buy out BK, who holds around 8000 shares (priced around £1,500 each) - then whether £40m would suffice or not is irrelevant. The arguement is that the investor is not looking towards what it costs to actually acquire shares (that is nominal) but more at what it costs to move forward.
New ground? £200-300M
MOney for team? £100M
Money to buy? £40M -
Hopefully the point can be seen. Man City canact as a play thing for the rich - who are obviously bored with the detail. Everton is not a toy whilst it has to go through a major project such as a stadium build - that will bring nothing but headaches and big bill...
Its really nothing to do with the purchase price that BK wants...
So, Tony, what is BK?s profit on the £40M? We hold our club in high esteeem, but it seems no one else does.
And Manchester gave them the stadium. Someone would still have to build ours and IN the city to make matters even more expensive. So, your £40M quickly becomes £340M. Not the £250M paid for City. All things being equal, it truly is about the stadium, and how much money BK wants for time put in.
Clyde
And Manchester gave them the stadium. Someone would still have to build ours and IN the city to make matters even more expensive. So, your £40M quickly becomes £340M. Not the £250M paid for City. All things being equal, it truly is about the stadium, and how much money BK wants for time put in.
Clyde
Is this article attempting to be some kind of ?Kirkby is the only option? article...without actually saying it?
I don?t believe the premise that a stadium is a pre-requisite to investment - and I certainly don?t believe that an essentially white elephant stadium in no-mans land is more attrative than a older stadium in a thriving city - and one thats loved by all the fans..
If you?re trying to provide an argument as to how Kirkby is the panacea to investment, then please do it - because I?ve been dying to have that one explained for ages!
I don?t believe the premise that a stadium is a pre-requisite to investment - and I certainly don?t believe that an essentially white elephant stadium in no-mans land is more attrative than a older stadium in a thriving city - and one thats loved by all the fans..
If you?re trying to provide an argument as to how Kirkby is the panacea to investment, then please do it - because I?ve been dying to have that one explained for ages!
Kirkby is certainly not the answer. A 50,000 seater in a place where only half the place will be filled is a non-starter. I dont think it is a thinly veiled attempt at support for Kirkby, but more to the point...we have a totally different opinion of EFC than anyone else. Because we support it. It seems that no one else has the same high opinion.
Of course it is all about the stadium, and Kirkby is the answer and Tony Marsh talks crap!
To use a metaphor...If Everton FC were a meal and investors perused the menu it would look a bit like this...
Main Course
?The Goodison? Steak and Chang pie served with chips.
?The King?s Dock? Fillet Steak served with seasonable vegetables.
?The Loop? Pan-fried Mersey caught fish served with onion rings.
?The Walton Hall? Breast of Duck in a refreshing citrus sauce with mashed potato.
?The NEW Goodison? Fillet Steak marinated in traditional ale, wrapped in pastry and served with wedges of potato.
?The Kirkby? Utter bollocks, served on a bed of shite, sprinkled with sugar.
Enjoy your meal!
Prices may differ from those published
Main Course
?The Goodison? Steak and Chang pie served with chips.
?The King?s Dock? Fillet Steak served with seasonable vegetables.
?The Loop? Pan-fried Mersey caught fish served with onion rings.
?The Walton Hall? Breast of Duck in a refreshing citrus sauce with mashed potato.
?The NEW Goodison? Fillet Steak marinated in traditional ale, wrapped in pastry and served with wedges of potato.
?The Kirkby? Utter bollocks, served on a bed of shite, sprinkled with sugar.
Enjoy your meal!
Prices may differ from those published
All I know is that since I started reading Toffeeweb we?ve been shit.
Last season, no home broadband, no problems. This season, snazzy laptop and wifi, and the football is dross. I rest my case.
Last season, no home broadband, no problems. This season, snazzy laptop and wifi, and the football is dross. I rest my case.
I think Michael Kenrick is a bit unfair saying that Jamie Rowland’s article can be summed up as ’we need a new stadium to attract investors’. It’s well worth thinking about why anyone would want to make many, many millions available to this club. For me, Jamie gets to the point when he distinguishes between hobbyists and professional investors. I think that some people who talk about investment should consider what kind they think would be best for our club.
Jamie’s conclusion is that we are attractive to neither. Perhaps so, I don’t know, but the stadium issue has to be a factor. Surely Man City wouldn’t now have their present ownership were they still located in Moss Side. Lots of chatter about a buyout soon now, who knows?
Jamie’s conclusion is that we are attractive to neither. Perhaps so, I don’t know, but the stadium issue has to be a factor. Surely Man City wouldn’t now have their present ownership were they still located in Moss Side. Lots of chatter about a buyout soon now, who knows?
Tony is spot on with his comments.
BK is the sole obstacle to the club finding a billionaire buyer. BK and supporters still in favour of Kirkby will have to face reality in a few months time; the stadium cannot possibly approved due to the totally inadequate transport facilities. The Government Enquiry will spend most of its time considering Tesco’s proposed superstore, not the stadium. A billionaire buyer won’t have a problem funding a new stadium within Liverpool as BK will have to sell at a relatively knock down price, it’s just very sad that he seems too stupid to realise this and sell up now.
BK is the sole obstacle to the club finding a billionaire buyer. BK and supporters still in favour of Kirkby will have to face reality in a few months time; the stadium cannot possibly approved due to the totally inadequate transport facilities. The Government Enquiry will spend most of its time considering Tesco’s proposed superstore, not the stadium. A billionaire buyer won’t have a problem funding a new stadium within Liverpool as BK will have to sell at a relatively knock down price, it’s just very sad that he seems too stupid to realise this and sell up now.
Got to agree with Michael. You went all over the place Jamie, when all you really wanted to tell us was " We won’t get investment without a new stadium " At least you have been a little cleverer than most, who like telling us about stadium, investment, only way, by slipping it into a written piece about investment. But you would have saved yourself a lot of time, by just giving it to us in a one liner.
Ian, I totally agree with you about BK being the real reason behind no multi-millionaire or billionaire taking over the club! he?s either asking for too much money or he?s making stupid demands to potential buyers with regards to staying on the board or staying as chairman once the club as been bought out? for some reason investors have turned a blind eye towards Everton and i truely believe its down to BK! all I can say is BK, thanks for all you?ve done pal but do us a favour, piss off!!!
Aide - if a billionaire wants to buy EFC, what would be the "too much" that BK is asking for?
I guess you’re an Evertonian. If you weren’t, why would you want to buy this club? Go back to Jamie’s article and find out about professional investors (who want to make money out of us) and hobbyists. Which gangster would you like to own us?
I guess you’re an Evertonian. If you weren’t, why would you want to buy this club? Go back to Jamie’s article and find out about professional investors (who want to make money out of us) and hobbyists. Which gangster would you like to own us?
I think we?re all losing sight of the main change required at EFC.
A new financially competent and astute board.
They dont have to be Billionaires but it might help.
The fallacy of a new stadium is utter tripe perpetrated by none other than the compulsive liar.
It doesnt matter whether we do GP up for 78 million or create a championship standard stadium for 78 million in Kirkby the costs are roughly the same.
The only difference is one will net BK and his cronies at least 50 million.No prizes for guessing which one but here?s a clue "there are no alternatives".
Now if you think a prospective investor with commercial acumen would prefer to pay an additional 150 million for EFC at Kirkby rather than have his own experts advise on the cost of renovating GP compared to ALL other options then you?re as deluded as BK.
EFC have enormous commercial potential that could be exploited with professional time and management.
A new financially competent and astute board.
They dont have to be Billionaires but it might help.
The fallacy of a new stadium is utter tripe perpetrated by none other than the compulsive liar.
It doesnt matter whether we do GP up for 78 million or create a championship standard stadium for 78 million in Kirkby the costs are roughly the same.
The only difference is one will net BK and his cronies at least 50 million.No prizes for guessing which one but here?s a clue "there are no alternatives".
Now if you think a prospective investor with commercial acumen would prefer to pay an additional 150 million for EFC at Kirkby rather than have his own experts advise on the cost of renovating GP compared to ALL other options then you?re as deluded as BK.
EFC have enormous commercial potential that could be exploited with professional time and management.
Can anyone tell me how this exclusivity agreement works in the event of a buyer coming along
Does the agreement become null and void if BK sells up ?
Does the agreement become null and void if BK sells up ?
Dave I think BK holds his and the majority holders share in True Blue holdings and the exclusivity agreement would have been signed on behalf of EFC.
Now this is only an assumption but if a new buyer buys the shares only then I would think there may not be a get out clause in the exclusivity agreement.
However an astute businessman would set out the terms of purchase in such a way that BK?s consortium would have to sort that issue out.
Now this is only an assumption but if a new buyer buys the shares only then I would think there may not be a get out clause in the exclusivity agreement.
However an astute businessman would set out the terms of purchase in such a way that BK?s consortium would have to sort that issue out.
Michael?s coment about other clubs getting investment needs carefully lookin at. I think there are London clubs who get investment just because it is the capital city. We are in the equivalent of a suburb of a city like Dusseldorf. To an Indian they think of Liverpool FC not Everton a small district centre. Then we have Man City stadium was paid for by us the tax payer. Free and gratis thanks very much. If West Ham were to get the Olympic Stadium the same applies. So it is not so simple. We may be bourght because Bill is a nice guy who has lots of powerful friends. Two of these are Philip Green and Mike Ashley? Watch this space.
This just sounds like you want to move to Kirkby, simple as.
It?s got nothing to do with a stadium, QPR have just been bought out by Bernie Ecclestone and Flavie Briatore, they?ve only got a 19,000 seater stadium and they haven?t been in the top flight or won anything for a gud few years now. Anfield isn?t that much bigger than Goodison and yet Liverpool were bought, fair enough they produce alot of profit but still, Moores had to sell because he didn?t have the money they wanted to buy players.
Newcastle haven?t won anything since god knows when but still they find buyers left, right and center. It?s down to backrooms and chairmen, and to be honest I don?t think Everton are trying hard enough to find investors because I don?t think Bill Kenwright deep down can decide wether he want?s to sell or not.
Be carefull what you wish for, if we do get sold it should be an extremeley clever buyer like Aston Villa?s owner who hasn?t gone insane with money.
It?s got nothing to do with a stadium, QPR have just been bought out by Bernie Ecclestone and Flavie Briatore, they?ve only got a 19,000 seater stadium and they haven?t been in the top flight or won anything for a gud few years now. Anfield isn?t that much bigger than Goodison and yet Liverpool were bought, fair enough they produce alot of profit but still, Moores had to sell because he didn?t have the money they wanted to buy players.
Newcastle haven?t won anything since god knows when but still they find buyers left, right and center. It?s down to backrooms and chairmen, and to be honest I don?t think Everton are trying hard enough to find investors because I don?t think Bill Kenwright deep down can decide wether he want?s to sell or not.
Be carefull what you wish for, if we do get sold it should be an extremeley clever buyer like Aston Villa?s owner who hasn?t gone insane with money.
Jay - I am afraid you are lying again. Explain how Bill will make £50M from Kirkby which he would not make from any other selling option. I have asked you this many times, and all you have ever come up with is: some idiot will pay way over the odds for Kirkby because they have had the wool pulled over their eyes by Bill. Is this still your argument?
Neil and I have told you this many times:-
Kirkby stadium will be valued at 150 million in the accounts.
The retail enabling development is stated to be in the region of 52 Million.
Now do you honestly believe that will find its way to a new buyer or is it the icing on the cake that Green, Earl and maybe even Tesco Terry will find a way of sharing with Bill.
Your naivety for a so called management consultant astounds me at times.
By the way I have demonstrated the lies construed by BK can you substantiate the statement that you have made about me.
If not I will expect an apology.
You have become a very bitter person since Kirkby got called in and I?m very disappointed in your attitude.
You?re not on any working party are you?
Kirkby stadium will be valued at 150 million in the accounts.
The retail enabling development is stated to be in the region of 52 Million.
Now do you honestly believe that will find its way to a new buyer or is it the icing on the cake that Green, Earl and maybe even Tesco Terry will find a way of sharing with Bill.
Your naivety for a so called management consultant astounds me at times.
By the way I have demonstrated the lies construed by BK can you substantiate the statement that you have made about me.
If not I will expect an apology.
You have become a very bitter person since Kirkby got called in and I?m very disappointed in your attitude.
You?re not on any working party are you?
Reading all the different viewpoints & scenarios and the resultant outcomes of buyouts & funding, I guess you could say that EFC are probably (like many premiership sides) out on a limb and, very much only able to survive on the support of the genuine supporter & backer. This being the case dos?nt it make you more determined to say fuck all the so called big boys - at least if we ever win a trophy we will have won it on merit and not a cheque book. I guess what I?m trying to say is that if you are not fortunate to be funded by a multi mult multi billionare (and we are clearly not) their is still a self satisfaction and pride knowing that we are and will probably always be a team built & playing on the abilty of managers, coaches, scouts, trainers, owners, board members, accademy coaches, players and most important of all supporters.
Hope this makes some sense ?
COYB
Hope this makes some sense ?
COYB
Alright then Keith, so what do you think the reasons are as to why we have’nt been bought out yet then, if its not BK then what?!! and what i mean by to much is quite obvious really, BK thinks were worth so much, potential investors think were worth less than what BK thinks!!
Let's have your figures Neil as to why Kirkby is such a good prospect for Everton FC. ie attendances, revenue streams...
Aide - I just don’t know mate. My point is that you have to try to understand why anyone else but BK would want to own EFC anyway. If its a fairy godmother billionaire Evertonian, no problem (I guess).
But what if its someone who only wants to make money out of us? These professional investors might exist and want to beat the asking price down - some say BK should sell to them. And then they are going to provide untold millions for transfers and ground redevelopment, without hitching borrowing and debt repayment to the club? Who are these guys?
But what if its someone who only wants to make money out of us? These professional investors might exist and want to beat the asking price down - some say BK should sell to them. And then they are going to provide untold millions for transfers and ground redevelopment, without hitching borrowing and debt repayment to the club? Who are these guys?
Ok so Kirkby stadium gets built.
The debt goes onto the club.
The potential profitability goes up and therefore the asking price for the shares go up.
The new owner therefore pays for the ground PLUS a premium for the shares except they don’t get a choice on design, features or location.
Or have I missed something that means Bill will ask less for his shares and the ground wil be fully paid for by someone else?
The debt goes onto the club.
The potential profitability goes up and therefore the asking price for the shares go up.
The new owner therefore pays for the ground PLUS a premium for the shares except they don’t get a choice on design, features or location.
Or have I missed something that means Bill will ask less for his shares and the ground wil be fully paid for by someone else?
So the essence is:
- it costs money to buy and run a football club!
Wow! I’d never thought of that before. What an eye opener.
Into the bargain you’ve got to pay wages and other running costs! - A bit like every other business on the planet then?
The difference is the reason why Institutional Investors steer a wide berth - that it is almost impossible to make money out of it. You say that you need to win trophies (EPL) and guarantee CL success - well there is only ever one of those each year!
No, the ONLY hope is for a wealthy investor to use it as his plaything and throw silly amounts of money at it.
Question is: Is that what we really want?
Subsidiary Question: What happens when he gets board?
- it costs money to buy and run a football club!
Wow! I’d never thought of that before. What an eye opener.
Into the bargain you’ve got to pay wages and other running costs! - A bit like every other business on the planet then?
The difference is the reason why Institutional Investors steer a wide berth - that it is almost impossible to make money out of it. You say that you need to win trophies (EPL) and guarantee CL success - well there is only ever one of those each year!
No, the ONLY hope is for a wealthy investor to use it as his plaything and throw silly amounts of money at it.
Question is: Is that what we really want?
Subsidiary Question: What happens when he gets board?
Sorry, should be ’bored’.
Shit, how I hate bad use of words!
Shit, how I hate bad use of words!
Jay,
Where is your evidence that GP can be fully sorted out (get planning permission, all obstructed views gone, loads more executive boxes, facilities all done up/updated, bigger capacity, much bigger earning potential, also - including any loses while being redeveloped, etc, etc - turning it into a world class stadium that you so crave) for £78 million?
Let?s have all of it on the table.
Where is your evidence that GP can be fully sorted out (get planning permission, all obstructed views gone, loads more executive boxes, facilities all done up/updated, bigger capacity, much bigger earning potential, also - including any loses while being redeveloped, etc, etc - turning it into a world class stadium that you so crave) for £78 million?
Let?s have all of it on the table.
Oh my god I agree with Tony Marsh.
Jaime your maths isnt very good, you mention an investor may look at spending £500m, lets say 400m if you look at Newcastle.
You then say £200-300m for a new ground,
£100m for the team
£40m we are saying to buy.
That leaves an investor with £10m in the bank.
Everton should be an attractive offer, in todays climate any investment is a gamble but Everton has got to be one of the lesser gambles.
They are one of the Top teams in the largest league in the world. They are playing in Europe. Their brand is growing in the far east thanks to our sponsors. Yes we need a stadium but at least they do not have to worry about getting relegated (like newcastle). Add to that the fact that in David Moyes we probably have the most successful manager in the last 3 or so seasons in respect of the where he has got the team with very little money to spend. Therefore maybe 100m is a bit of a high estimate for building the team.
Jaime your maths isnt very good, you mention an investor may look at spending £500m, lets say 400m if you look at Newcastle.
You then say £200-300m for a new ground,
£100m for the team
£40m we are saying to buy.
That leaves an investor with £10m in the bank.
Everton should be an attractive offer, in todays climate any investment is a gamble but Everton has got to be one of the lesser gambles.
They are one of the Top teams in the largest league in the world. They are playing in Europe. Their brand is growing in the far east thanks to our sponsors. Yes we need a stadium but at least they do not have to worry about getting relegated (like newcastle). Add to that the fact that in David Moyes we probably have the most successful manager in the last 3 or so seasons in respect of the where he has got the team with very little money to spend. Therefore maybe 100m is a bit of a high estimate for building the team.
Newcastle are in talks with 8 separate potential investors according to the bbc website and we can’t find one...bloody hell
Frankly I don’t give a monkeys nuts about Newcastle. With all their money they still can’t get anywhere cos there’s too much owner/board interference in team affairs. What I think we need is somebody with enough money who also has the balls to take on the red s...e for supremacy in the city of Liverpool and will let the manager/coach earn his stripes..
The point is "the money" and "the balls". BK ain’t got the dosh required for the PL!
COYB
The point is "the money" and "the balls". BK ain’t got the dosh required for the PL!
COYB
Damien
the figures have been provided numerous times on here so if you havent bothered to read them I cant be bothered to repeat them.
But just to create another tier on the Park end would create an extra 8000 seats for about 20 million.
Redeveloping the Bullens to create exec boxes and eliminate restricted views about 35 million.
There is also a copy of an article I posted earlier this year called "Redeveloping GP" which you can find in the archives on TW.
That was a study by leading stadium engineers that came up with a cost of 40 million to turn GP into a world class 55000 (not 50401) in 2001.
Since then other knowledgable experts such as Tom Hughes have posted more detailed information on costing and design.
Redeveloping GP is an option.It is not about to fall down or be closed down and can be developed over time.
the figures have been provided numerous times on here so if you havent bothered to read them I cant be bothered to repeat them.
But just to create another tier on the Park end would create an extra 8000 seats for about 20 million.
Redeveloping the Bullens to create exec boxes and eliminate restricted views about 35 million.
There is also a copy of an article I posted earlier this year called "Redeveloping GP" which you can find in the archives on TW.
That was a study by leading stadium engineers that came up with a cost of 40 million to turn GP into a world class 55000 (not 50401) in 2001.
Since then other knowledgable experts such as Tom Hughes have posted more detailed information on costing and design.
Redeveloping GP is an option.It is not about to fall down or be closed down and can be developed over time.
I am not an Accountant nor do I have any experience in selling anything like as difficult to sell as Everton F.C.
However, one or two comments are made with which I cannot agree. Everton are ’very attractive’ presumably to wealth Sheikhs or Indian multi-billionaires? Am I right that that is what you are saying Michael.
What makes them so attractive? History?
I’ve lived through 70+ years of that history. Its not, in my opinion, so exceptional, certainly not to our hoped for Investor.
When I first visited Goodison Park, with my Dad, I lived in Little Sutton, half way between Birkenhead and Chester. Not exactly on the doorstep. For the first 30 years of my life I lived on the Wirral and was a regular visitor. Granted, I worked in the city but its was still a hike on the bus.
I am not so familiar with Kirkby so don’t feel I can take sides in that argument other than to reiterate, as I have many times, that all ’Toffees’ aren’t to be found living in the vicinity of Goodison. We have always travelled fair long ways to get to the ground. I feel that if Kirkby was ever given the green light, the club would ensure transport became available to take fans to the ground.
To conclude, I am 100% behind those who claim that, at this moment in time, Everton F.C. are not, repeat not, an attractive buy to a billionaire investor.
I confess , having to read the slanderous comments made about BK on this and other sites, makes me despair for the nature of the clubs so called supporters.
However, one or two comments are made with which I cannot agree. Everton are ’very attractive’ presumably to wealth Sheikhs or Indian multi-billionaires? Am I right that that is what you are saying Michael.
What makes them so attractive? History?
I’ve lived through 70+ years of that history. Its not, in my opinion, so exceptional, certainly not to our hoped for Investor.
When I first visited Goodison Park, with my Dad, I lived in Little Sutton, half way between Birkenhead and Chester. Not exactly on the doorstep. For the first 30 years of my life I lived on the Wirral and was a regular visitor. Granted, I worked in the city but its was still a hike on the bus.
I am not so familiar with Kirkby so don’t feel I can take sides in that argument other than to reiterate, as I have many times, that all ’Toffees’ aren’t to be found living in the vicinity of Goodison. We have always travelled fair long ways to get to the ground. I feel that if Kirkby was ever given the green light, the club would ensure transport became available to take fans to the ground.
To conclude, I am 100% behind those who claim that, at this moment in time, Everton F.C. are not, repeat not, an attractive buy to a billionaire investor.
I confess , having to read the slanderous comments made about BK on this and other sites, makes me despair for the nature of the clubs so called supporters.
Tim: I am 100% behind those who claim that, at this moment in time, Everton F.C. are not, repeat not, an attractive buy to a billionaire investor.
And I can assure you with 100% certainty that they are attractive to a billionaire and I say that not only with my own information but also from Kenwright’s own quotes from the EGM where talked of the "12 to 15" parties he had spoken with the in the last year.
There are interested parties out there and if Bill had favoured a quick sale without caring to whom, the club would be in different hands by now. It’s up to the fan to believe whether his reluctance to sell has been because of the character or intentions of the buyer or his desire to keep hold of the train-set. I don’t believe many or any of us could say for certain eiither way...
And I can assure you with 100% certainty that they are attractive to a billionaire and I say that not only with my own information but also from Kenwright’s own quotes from the EGM where talked of the "12 to 15" parties he had spoken with the in the last year.
There are interested parties out there and if Bill had favoured a quick sale without caring to whom, the club would be in different hands by now. It’s up to the fan to believe whether his reluctance to sell has been because of the character or intentions of the buyer or his desire to keep hold of the train-set. I don’t believe many or any of us could say for certain eiither way...
Interesting to read all the different views
One question.
New 50,000 stadium. Don’t care where it is, but who will fill it.
We average about 35,000
We got 28,000 vs Standard Liege and 34,000 vs Portsmouth.
We are selling season tickets to under 16’s for £190.
We don’t have a waiting list for season tickets.
We don’t have massive queues at home games and lock people out.
If we move, ticket prices will go up inevitably.
Yes we obviously need investment, but do we want to bankrupt ourselves to build a new stadium that we won’t fill, just so we can then sell our soul and prostitute ourselves to the next billionaire that is looking for a hobby.
Things may not be great under BK, but at least he’s an Evertonian.
Football is losing its’ soul, and it seems like most people here want to jump on board.
One question.
New 50,000 stadium. Don’t care where it is, but who will fill it.
We average about 35,000
We got 28,000 vs Standard Liege and 34,000 vs Portsmouth.
We are selling season tickets to under 16’s for £190.
We don’t have a waiting list for season tickets.
We don’t have massive queues at home games and lock people out.
If we move, ticket prices will go up inevitably.
Yes we obviously need investment, but do we want to bankrupt ourselves to build a new stadium that we won’t fill, just so we can then sell our soul and prostitute ourselves to the next billionaire that is looking for a hobby.
Things may not be great under BK, but at least he’s an Evertonian.
Football is losing its’ soul, and it seems like most people here want to jump on board.
Jay Harris:
"It doesnt matter whether we do GP up for 78 million or create a championship standard stadium for 78 million in Kirkby the costs are roughly the same."
Really? whether you are for or against Kirkby, if we were to move then the club would sell Goodison Park (which it owns). How much for is open to debate & market conditions, but a sizeable sum. It would also be seeking to sell stadium naming rights for the new stadium. Again, how much is open to a variety of factors. So that’s two elements which together make a sizeable difference in the cost of redeveloping Goodison (where it possible) and moving.
Then there is the issue of lost revenue at Goodison whilst re-development was taking place. This is non-trivial. Then there is the cost of acquiring land and all the legal add-ons therein for the re-development. This may or may not have been factored in, if not then we’re into even higher differentials.
As for the re-development schedule, you and some others spout this bizarre idea that just putting a tier on the Park End would add another 8,000 fans for only £20m. Hmm. The idea that, if we were to re-develop Goodison we would start with the Park End is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard for a long time. The priority at Goodison is Main Stand, Bullens, Street End. They are all past their sell-by and dilapidated. The priority is not only capacity, it is accessibility, comfort and appeal to fans & sponsors alike. Why would anyone start with the Park End and leave 3 of the oldest & uncomfortable stands in the league until later?
And then your response to Neil (clearly speaking from a position of authority):
"Neil and I have told you this many times:- Kirkby stadium will be valued at 150 million in the accounts."
My understanding was that Everton would have a 999 year lease on the stadium footprint, not a freehold. We may own the stadium,but nobody buys anybody else’s stadium do they. The value of £150m includes the land, which I believe has a notional value of £50m. So that’s £50m to be deducted from what you told Neil. All else seems to be wholly subjective assumptions, rather than facts. You know no more than the average Evertonian about what price Kenwright would sell for, Kirkby or no Kirkby. You also assume he is hell bent on making a killing out of Everton. Ever considered that you might actually be wrong?
And don’t misinterpret my views because I wish we could re-develop Goodison, or find a great site near the city centre. But I also don’t suffer the delusions of thinking we can just do that for the same cost as Kirkby. That, frankly, is nonsense. Most people believe who they want to believe. I would love to believe that we can re-build Goodison to high capacity, high standard & within an acceptable time-frame & acceptable costs. But on the evidence I have seen (from BOTH sides incidentally) it looks totally implausible.
I have no axe to grind. The only thing I am pro is my club. I want the best we can afford, both on the pitch and around the pitch.
"It doesnt matter whether we do GP up for 78 million or create a championship standard stadium for 78 million in Kirkby the costs are roughly the same."
Really? whether you are for or against Kirkby, if we were to move then the club would sell Goodison Park (which it owns). How much for is open to debate & market conditions, but a sizeable sum. It would also be seeking to sell stadium naming rights for the new stadium. Again, how much is open to a variety of factors. So that’s two elements which together make a sizeable difference in the cost of redeveloping Goodison (where it possible) and moving.
Then there is the issue of lost revenue at Goodison whilst re-development was taking place. This is non-trivial. Then there is the cost of acquiring land and all the legal add-ons therein for the re-development. This may or may not have been factored in, if not then we’re into even higher differentials.
As for the re-development schedule, you and some others spout this bizarre idea that just putting a tier on the Park End would add another 8,000 fans for only £20m. Hmm. The idea that, if we were to re-develop Goodison we would start with the Park End is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard for a long time. The priority at Goodison is Main Stand, Bullens, Street End. They are all past their sell-by and dilapidated. The priority is not only capacity, it is accessibility, comfort and appeal to fans & sponsors alike. Why would anyone start with the Park End and leave 3 of the oldest & uncomfortable stands in the league until later?
And then your response to Neil (clearly speaking from a position of authority):
"Neil and I have told you this many times:- Kirkby stadium will be valued at 150 million in the accounts."
My understanding was that Everton would have a 999 year lease on the stadium footprint, not a freehold. We may own the stadium,but nobody buys anybody else’s stadium do they. The value of £150m includes the land, which I believe has a notional value of £50m. So that’s £50m to be deducted from what you told Neil. All else seems to be wholly subjective assumptions, rather than facts. You know no more than the average Evertonian about what price Kenwright would sell for, Kirkby or no Kirkby. You also assume he is hell bent on making a killing out of Everton. Ever considered that you might actually be wrong?
And don’t misinterpret my views because I wish we could re-develop Goodison, or find a great site near the city centre. But I also don’t suffer the delusions of thinking we can just do that for the same cost as Kirkby. That, frankly, is nonsense. Most people believe who they want to believe. I would love to believe that we can re-build Goodison to high capacity, high standard & within an acceptable time-frame & acceptable costs. But on the evidence I have seen (from BOTH sides incidentally) it looks totally implausible.
I have no axe to grind. The only thing I am pro is my club. I want the best we can afford, both on the pitch and around the pitch.
After much deliberation behind the scenes with Supportors Direct and creation of a full website, we have come up with the following taster on the advice of Supporters Direct - see thepeoplesstadium.co.uk
The idea is we all stump up the cash to put towards a new stadium/renovate Goodison so we have a say in the future of EFC.
Ideally, we raise around £150million or more and rent it back to Everton and own all the bricks, mortar, grass, turnstiles, seats, roof, executice boxes, car park etc and become landlords to stop our Club just laying down and dying in ever increasing competition.
See John Hughes article on this website.
The idea is we all stump up the cash to put towards a new stadium/renovate Goodison so we have a say in the future of EFC.
Ideally, we raise around £150million or more and rent it back to Everton and own all the bricks, mortar, grass, turnstiles, seats, roof, executice boxes, car park etc and become landlords to stop our Club just laying down and dying in ever increasing competition.
See John Hughes article on this website.
Alan Kirwan
May I just correct you on a couple of errors of comparison.
GP is subject to a mortgage of 15 million and according to best estimates before the latest slump would raise 13 million....no net gain there then.
Secondly what is to stop a redeveloped GP getting naming rights which may even carry a greater value than Kirkby given it?s prominent position on one of the main arterial roads in the City of Culture.
There would be some disruption at some stage but most of it could be done close season time and from memory the capacity would never drop below 30000 and that would only be for a portion of the season.
You may think adding another tier to the park end is ridiculous but if we are after increased capacity that is one of the cheapest ways to do it.
Apart from which if you?ve bothered to look at any of the plans and costings that have been posted on here many times by experienced and reputable architects and engineers such as Trevor Skempton and Tom Hughes you will see that a redeveoped Park end forms an integral part of a classy redeveloped stadium unlike the championship standard beast that is proposed for Kirkby.
The 150 million value of the stadium does not include the land it is based on a current valuation method of £300 per seat @ 50000 seats and was estimated by our good friend Tesco Terry.
Did you also know it is estimated to cost EFC around 2 to 3 million just to decontaminate the land that we wont even own at Kirkby.
Alan I want the best for EFC too and Kirkby doesnt even get close on so many fronts. THe disenfranchising of so many longstanding Blues for a start would mean it would never cut the mustard financially let alone the other major issues with transport and location.
I am not saying developing GP is the only option I am saying it NEEDS to be considered.
May I just correct you on a couple of errors of comparison.
GP is subject to a mortgage of 15 million and according to best estimates before the latest slump would raise 13 million....no net gain there then.
Secondly what is to stop a redeveloped GP getting naming rights which may even carry a greater value than Kirkby given it?s prominent position on one of the main arterial roads in the City of Culture.
There would be some disruption at some stage but most of it could be done close season time and from memory the capacity would never drop below 30000 and that would only be for a portion of the season.
You may think adding another tier to the park end is ridiculous but if we are after increased capacity that is one of the cheapest ways to do it.
Apart from which if you?ve bothered to look at any of the plans and costings that have been posted on here many times by experienced and reputable architects and engineers such as Trevor Skempton and Tom Hughes you will see that a redeveoped Park end forms an integral part of a classy redeveloped stadium unlike the championship standard beast that is proposed for Kirkby.
The 150 million value of the stadium does not include the land it is based on a current valuation method of £300 per seat @ 50000 seats and was estimated by our good friend Tesco Terry.
Did you also know it is estimated to cost EFC around 2 to 3 million just to decontaminate the land that we wont even own at Kirkby.
Alan I want the best for EFC too and Kirkby doesnt even get close on so many fronts. THe disenfranchising of so many longstanding Blues for a start would mean it would never cut the mustard financially let alone the other major issues with transport and location.
I am not saying developing GP is the only option I am saying it NEEDS to be considered.
The least we should be able to offer a potential investor is a well run well marketed club off the field.
On the field, a team who play attractive ,spirited football with some passion and who are also in Europe.At the moment none of the above is on offer.
On the field, a team who play attractive ,spirited football with some passion and who are also in Europe.At the moment none of the above is on offer.
Jay,
I don?t doubt that GP can be redeveloped, but everything done for £78 million? I doubt that.
If they did, first thing they would need to sort out arevthe obstructed views, the ground is a joke with them. I paid £34.50 for a derby ticket for my Sister, only for her to have a post smack bang in the view of one of the goals (not they she would probably have wanted to watch the shite anyway, but you know...). That?s just ridiculous.
I don?t doubt that GP can be redeveloped, but everything done for £78 million? I doubt that.
If they did, first thing they would need to sort out arevthe obstructed views, the ground is a joke with them. I paid £34.50 for a derby ticket for my Sister, only for her to have a post smack bang in the view of one of the goals (not they she would probably have wanted to watch the shite anyway, but you know...). That?s just ridiculous.
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1 Posted 01/10/2008 at 15:01:54
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The rumblings indicate that it is Kenwright who is the stumbling block to new investment. It’s all bound up in those few words of his about "... when the right offer comes along". No-one knows how many serious offers there have been. Some (Neil Pearse) deny there have been any, while others claim to have direct knowledge of Bill’s intransigence.
Who do you want to believe?