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FAN ARTICLES

The Seven-Year Itch

By Tony Marsh :  03/10/2008 :  Comments (79) :
Seven years is a very long time in football... in fact, some clubs in the Premier League have had about as many mangers in that time scale while we have been stuck with just the one. Seven Fucking Years Moyes has had to get us where we are now... but where the fuck are we???

Last night in Belgium, the Everton team Moyes has painstakingly assembled (for 7 fucking years) looked like a conference side playing one of the big boys in an FA Cup-tie ? but without all the passion and fight a Conference side usually show. It was a terrible display and an insult to any Evertonian who had the misfortune to watch this shite. God bless the poor souls who went there.

One thing I will say is that the horrible hoohfball was cast aside in favour of a passing style of play but ? do you know what? It's alien to our players and they looked more uncomfortable trying to play football than they do twating the ball down the pitch. Seven fucking years to get to this...

Even the most ardent of Moyes followers must now have to admit that Davey hasn't got the tools to go any further. I mean a squad of players at a club the size of Everton without one player with any real pace is a joke. No pace, no power, no skills. Let's look at some facts shall we?

If you take Arteta out of the Everton side, we don't have one player you could call a flair player and Arteta isn't that clever really is he? Since Dave Watson left, we don't have one single player at the club we can describe as an on field leader or General. We don't possess a proper ball-winning midfield player at the club, fullstop ? WHY?

AJ was the only pace we had and he was sold and a player who can pass or tackle in the same game is as rare as Rocking Horse shite. We are one dimensional carthorses... It's crap and its all down to Moyes.

So, before the "We need Money to get players in" brigade start to pipe up, let me ask them this: Have you seen the players Steve Bruce has taken to Wigan? Fuck me, what I wouldn't give to see Valencia and Zaki in Everton shirts, to name but two. How about Phil Brown at Hull City signing Brazilians who break the back of the net at the Emirates. Geovanni any one?

Now come on, Hull City and Wigan Athletic signing players of this calibre.... Where was Moyes's scouts at the time? Oh, I forgot: we have been watching Fellaini for for two years... HA HA HA ? and bringing in another Man Utd cast off. Saha, like I said months ago, is finished and we have been stiched up yet again.

I knew the Mancs wouldn't pay the £2.5 million we were owed from the success they had last season. Nice one, Bill ? sucker-punched again.

What I am saying is this: If Hull City and Wigan and many other clubs we consider smaller than ourselves can find top players without paying the earth for them then WHY CANT WE??? The answer is simple: David Moyes likes small utilty-type players who can run about all day and play in different positions [badly mind you] and flair or skill doesn't come in to his equations ? that's why.

Take last night for example: Give Moyes credit for going 4-4-2 but once out on the field there was it still no proper game plan. It was as if he told them this before the game:

MOYES: Right lads, we are going for it tonight, it's a 4-4-2 line-up, 2 strikers and let's have a go.
PLAYER: Yea, nice one boss, so what's the plan then?
MOYES: Erm... what do you mean "What's the plan?" ? smart arse.
PLAYER: You know boss tactics and stuff...
MOYES: Oh ye that well it's just the same as when we go 4-5-1, we go out there and see what happens.
PLAYER: But Boss, this is Europe, we need some kind of strategy other than "Let's see what happens."
MOYES: Listen, you shut the fuck up. My head's wrecked as it is. I will give you the James Vaughan treatment if you're not careful. Get out there and run you twat.

And there you have David Moyes's pre-match team talk.

I hope and pray that BK sees sense and pulls the contract offered to Dynamo Dave or else we will have another 4 years of this utter dross. I mean how much longer do we have to suffer Tony Hibbert in a Blue shirt? It's not the lad's fault he is playing two divisions above his capability, it's down to the manager to spot these things.

Well, if we don't beat the Barcodes on Sunday, we could well end up in the same position we found ourselves in under Mike Walker in 1994. Bottom of the table in mid-November and 8 points on the board. And there's some of you lot calling Moyes a saviour.

I won't say I told you or I warned you that this was coming because it's killing me too. So next time you want to call me negative or a Kopite or a Gobshite, take a look at the season so far and take a look at the pathetic squad of players Moyes has brought to the club.

I would say I have been pretty close to the mark all along... wouldn't you???

Reader Comments

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Kevin Chung
1   Posted 04/10/2008 at 05:19:44

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I?ve been a big Moyes supporter for a long time now... and I still am and I don?t think getting rid of him will solve our problem... seriously...

But I do start to wonder about his tactics a little bit... First he signed Beattie and then left him out in the cold... Then he signed AJ who took over from Beattie and eventually he sold Beattie... Then AJ is left out in the cold and we signed Yak... then AJ is sold....

BUT we still have Andy VDM in our side... I?m a little bit perplex by this...

Confuse confuse I am...
Steven Fenrick
2   Posted 04/10/2008 at 06:24:26

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After reading this post, I do wonder where have you been for the past 7 yrs??
"Seven Fucking Years Moyes has had to get us where we are now... but where the fuck are we.."
Dude, with no disrespect, 7 yrs ago we were relegation material. Bankrupt, with no idea whether we?ll survive for the season.

Right now, the simple fact remains that we are no longer going to be considered as relegation material, but rather a side that are genuinely considered as having the potential to crack the ?skysports 4?. The issue of contention here is that we?re not living up to this perceived potential that we have, and this alone highlights the progress we?ve made over the years.

Give credit where it is due, Our team ranks mid-table at best in almost every aspect, such as turnover, attendance, expenditure etc. We?ve been punching above our weight precisely due to Moyes and the team he had assembled so far.

Granted now that he and the team seems to be scratching their heads over the next step needed to break into top 4. It must be noted that it is precisely due to the improvements over the past 7 years that gave us the chance to even be in this position in the first place.
Dave Wilson
3   Posted 04/10/2008 at 06:44:08

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Agreed with most of it, but I?m not sure changing Managers NOW will help.

We have a really bad combination of players who can't pass - Neville, Jags, Hibert, Cahill, Yobo etc and players whose movement to make themselves available for an easy ball is virtually non existent. As pointed out in the article, there can be few teams who look so uncomfortable in possession.

None of this would change under a new manager, it would?nt be fair to expect it to. DM is responsible for our playing staff and he is likely to get the best out of them. I always believe a new manager should be appointed at the end of any season, at least he has time to get some of his own players in, if that's at the expense of some of the current players, then even better.

Everyone I spoke to after Thursday's game said they believed this season to be a write-off already. The gates will soon be reflecting that.

Castillo and Screech should be told they will definitely be playing the next 5 games ? give them a proper chance to show what they can do ? coz if we persevere with Thurday's team, we?ll have dug the trenches and ordered the hard hats by then anyway.
Ray Roche
4   Posted 04/10/2008 at 07:39:33

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Tony, I thought you?d be delighted that we?ve been dumped out of another cup competition because "the Carling Cup or the Uefa Cup as they are both worthless and pointless", at least, they are according to your comments on the 25/09/2008. Why are you so concerned..... oh,yes,I can see it now.... it gives you yet another chance to rant on about Moyes, boring us shitless in the process. I?ve asked you this before and you?ve never had the mind (or bottle, it might show you up to be a bit of a thicko) to answer.... what would The Great Tony Marsh do if he was in Moyes position? What team would The Great Tony Marsh pick? What players would The Great Tony Marsh buy in January? And where would The Great Tony Marsh get the money?
Be a sport Tony, answer me just this one time....
Tim Laynge
5   Posted 04/10/2008 at 07:33:58

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I always wonder what sort of a coach he is. I mean surely I am no football expert, but for professional footballers not to be able to pass... Beggars belief. Why does he not train them to it?

Again, such a magician as Arteta ? why can?t he train the bloke to practise on different angle set pieces "a la" Becks or Sheeds for that matter?

Mark me, I am as gutted as the next Evertonian on the farce of Pip?s ridiculous contract. But one asset he has, and to my mind his strongest one, is his mastery of the long throw. Why not make him work at it and use it half as well as that Stoke bloke. Comes to mind always how on a TV match against Chelskea we lost through one long throw that was directed straight to Lampard, long-range shot and bang! ? in.

And why so few long-range shots from an Everton side? If they want to hoof it, hoof it in the way it hurls in. Now we have Casty and Marwon I bet they?d excel at it "a la Charlie George" - anyone remembers? Only dour Moyes appears to drain these out of them.
COYB

Ged Simpson
6   Posted 04/10/2008 at 08:25:15

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Tony.... when did you first warn us about Moyes ?
Billbo Baggins
7   Posted 04/10/2008 at 08:21:41

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Stephen, I would say we are worse of now financialy then we have ever been, we cant afford to buy anyone (Fellaini was bought with the Johnson money), we have sold off everything we own and we are still spending millions and I mean millions on Desperation Kirkby.
Neil Sharpe
8   Posted 04/10/2008 at 09:02:56

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I understand that recent results have pursuaded Mr Moyes to accept the deal on offer and that he will sign the forms today.
Aren’t we the lucky ones!
John Andrews
9   Posted 04/10/2008 at 08:50:53

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Whilst I agree with much of that which you say I cannot agree with the Arteta bit. Yes he does fail on a couple of levels in that he seems loth to have a shot. Also his attempt to outpace Riera led to the first goal against the shite.
However minus Arteta can you imagine what it would be like ? It does not bear thinking about believe me.
Sadly it would appear that Moyes is on the verge of signing up for another five, yes five, years. Five more years of dysfunctional football !
Perhaps if Moyes were not so intransigent in his tactics then we may see some progress but I fear that will not be the case.
Mark Cassin
10   Posted 04/10/2008 at 09:11:41

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Your article has more holes in it than a slice of dutch cheese.

The only 2 points which are interesting are;

1. No defensive midfielder ? Castillo.
2. No pace (I assume you mean in midfield) ? Obinna was signed and sealed before the workpermit issues.
George Meek
11   Posted 04/10/2008 at 09:19:21

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Kenwright has dropped some clangers over his years in office but nothing compares with the ridiculous decision to give Moyes a new five-year contract at double the money he was on. This act alone will bring Kenwright?s downfall as the team goes into decline, crowds fall away and he is unable to pay him off.
This day marks the beginning of the end for Kenwright ? and Everton as a premier force.
Matthew Williams
12   Posted 04/10/2008 at 09:29:18

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So, Tony, you want Moyes to be booted out. Name a realistic manager to come and replace him who will do better. Because let me tell you if Moyes went we would end up with Sam Alladyce and we definitely do not want him at our club.

Things are not looking good at the moment and, although it shouldn?t be, a lot of it is down to the uncertainity of Moyes contract. The same thing happened at Man Utd when Ferguson said he was retiring at the end of a season, the players started to underpeform until he signed a new contract. I also think the return of Pienaar will improve our football as he seems to make us tick. Last season we were playing some of the best football I have seen at Everton and a lot of that was down to the little man.

I honestly don?t see any other manager coming in and doing a better job than Moyes. Things have not always been smooth running but to get a 4th and 5th finish as well as a couple of top 8 finishes in that time is an incredible achievement. You need to stop moaning and get back to reality.

Anthony Jaras
13   Posted 04/10/2008 at 10:04:49

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Can the Moyes brigade plese tell me what ’Reality’ you are asking Tony Marsh and the rest of us honest and realistic supporters to get back to?
There are far more negatives than positives at the moment.

Correct me if I am wrong, please!
Steve Guy
14   Posted 04/10/2008 at 10:06:17

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If I remember the film of the same name as this article correctly, a man, disillusioned with his marraige, flirts with another woman before realising that he was much better off trying to make his marriage work.

Same with you Tony. You see all the faults with the current situation and refuse to see any positives. Fair enough, but it?s amazing the way you shut up last season when we were playing good, passing football and winning games. In fact, at one point, you actually held up your hands and admitted it was good stuff. No doubt with some relief, the chaos that has undoubtedly been the theme of the last few months in Liverpool 4 has been met with sighs of relief in the Marsh household; as you can now happily go back into ?Moyes out? rant mode for the foreseeable future.

It?s crap at the moment and there?s no denying it, but I listen to a lot of radio and read a lot of newspapers etc. The only people who think Moyes should leave are Evertonians! The rest of the UK seem to think he is one of the best managers (and coaches) in the UK. Which is presumably why he keeps getting touted for jobs elsewhere. Someone?s clearly got it wrong, it must be the rest of the world. Obviously.

I?ve said it before but it?s worth saying again, be careful what you wish for, because I don?t see the creme de la creme cuing up to come to Goodison if Moyes went.

I think it?s time to move on, we need a win on Sunday; any kind of win will do. It can go in off Yakubu?s arse for all I care.
John Maxwell
15   Posted 04/10/2008 at 10:21:07

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This season can definitely be written off.. But wasnt it coming way back in August ?

Personally I dont think he should be sacked and Kenwright will never get rid of him. I can only see him leaving to go to Celtic.

This season we can only hope for a decent facup run and I cant see us qualifying for the UEFA, unless its through the fair play award..

Arent we get getting Wagner Love in January, correct me if I?m wrong?

Tony, you are right in losing Arteta will leave us desperately short of falir players. Give Fellaini and chance though and a 5 days at an English Language boot camp.

COYB and let's get a morale-boosting win against a team in a far worse position than us..

Only 950 tickets sold in the away end!!
Paul Gavin
16   Posted 04/10/2008 at 10:43:14

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Moyes is suppose to sign his new contract this weekend

Wagner Love in January - do we have any money to spend

or will it 31 fucking days of us being linked with every man and his dog

This season was written off in May, June and July when we didnt strengthen the squad

And that is down to either the board or Moyes dithering

Kevin Mitchell
17   Posted 04/10/2008 at 10:16:42

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Can?t argue with any of that, Tony. We all knew years ago that Hibbert can?t play at this level and Neville can?t play in centre mid, yet Moyes continues to play them. Castillo should have played.

It?s blindingly obvious we have needed 2/3 midfielders in our squad with power, pace and passing skills, but Moyes dosn?t seem to agree. This might not go down well but, as much as I like Tim Cahill, there?s no way he can play in a 4-4-2, and he should be on the bench.

Brian Waring
18   Posted 04/10/2008 at 10:36:25

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I hate all this " Wev?e got no money" shite ? Look at Liege, not exactly a team full of household names are they? I bet if you compare the two teams on paper, I bet they paid probably half of what our squad is worth. They were over the 2 legs better than the shite and us; the reason, because they play football, at pace, movement, technique, they have it all.

Now, all you people who keep telling us, the reason we can?t play like that, is because we don?t have the money to buy the quality it would take for us to. So then, how can Liege play like that? Could it be down to their manager, who installs the football mentality into their game? Nah, couldn?t be down to the manager could it? Because Moyes would have had us playing like that,after 6½ years into his tenure, wouldn?t he?

Barry Sherlock
19   Posted 04/10/2008 at 10:21:46

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It’s not great at the moment. It’s so easy for so many fans to come on here and write a load of crap slating Moyes and his tactics and his players etc.

Where the fuck were you when we were beating the RS 3-nil??? Where the fuck were you when we battered NUFC to finish 5th (btw I’ve still got that saved on the SkyPlus; we played some brilliant football). How bad was Moyes then?? It’s all so easy. Sit back put your feet up on the couch and slam the keyboard with all kinds of slants at Moyes. You haven’t got a clue. No idea. Do you give any reference as to who you would bring in? NO. Players you would have? NO. Just insults.

Pienaar, Arteta, Cahill, Yak, Felliani, Osman, Saha all good footballers. All signed by DM. Okay it’s not working at the moment. To suddenly say "I told you all along" is crap. Negative crap. You do my head in. Everytime we lose a game - one thing is guaranteed; TONY MARSH will put a post on. Negative.

It isn’t all roses in the garden but we are SIX games into the PL season!!! We are going to get better. DM will find the system that works and we will start to see a winning team again.
Brian Waring
20   Posted 04/10/2008 at 10:52:41

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Barry Sherlock, you mention all those good footballers, so why then don?t we actually play football? As I mentioned above, how we set up to play, is down to the manager, and he?s not really a good advert for football is he? I think the main gripe fans have, is the negative, predictable football we play. We are constantly being reminded, that we have players settling in, it was a shit pre-season etc. But can I ask you, why after 6½ yrs, we are still playing the same dire, predictable football?
Barry Sherlock
21   Posted 04/10/2008 at 11:05:43

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NUFC.
I alluded to it earlier. Last game of the season. BTW lots of pressure on the players, the manager. We had to better Villa's result. We played some really good passing football.

Pienaar broke his foot - no pre-season.
Cahill - no pre-season.
Vaughan - no pre-season.
Arteta - limited pre-season.
Hibbo - no pre-season.
Saha - no pre-season.
Fellaini - no pre-season.
Castillo - no pre-season.
Osman - niggling injuries.

See the pattern? The team just haven?t bonded yet. Alot of the players are no where near fit. But when they are we will start playing better. Second leg last year against Fiorentina we where excellent. Moyes can get the team moving and playing well. We have had set backs before. We need to get behind the team and the manager.
Stephen Stuart
22   Posted 04/10/2008 at 11:10:30

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Steven Fenrick says:
"Right now, the simple fact remains that we are no longer going to be considered as relegation material, but rather a side that are genuinely considered as having the potential to crack the ?skysports 4?. "

Who says so? I would suggest that given the current predicament we are ripe for relegation. Presumably, you base your argument on the old ?we are making progress? argument. When scrutinised this doesn?t stand up - it is an illusion - progress is a metaphor for ? we haven?t won anything? - which under Moyes, we haven?t.

If Moyes signs this new contract then I, for one, see no future for this club. He is completely overrated often by those who are so desperate for success they will put up with anything!. Tony Marsh has integrity and a clear vision of what he expects from Everton, as I do and Everton under Kenwrong and Moyes is not it!
Dave Moorcroft
23   Posted 04/10/2008 at 11:06:15

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Everyone needs to wake up NOW! We are relegation material and we are Bankrupt. Both in ideas and cash and its all down to Kenwrong and Moyes.
David Marsden
24   Posted 04/10/2008 at 11:55:32

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Its a good thing BK is in charge, as he won?t get rid of Moyes, he ain?t that bloody stupid.

But you Mr Marsh are unbelievable arrognant, which is made painfully worse by your ignorance.

The class structure was great as it kept thickos like you quiet!.
Mike Beav
25   Posted 04/10/2008 at 11:40:37

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When Moyes took over we were awful ? we had just been knocked out of the FA Cup by an average Boro team and we were heading for relegation. In the 6½ years since Moyes has gradually built a competent team that has enabled us to compete for European qualification on a regular basis - indeed in the last 4 years we have finished 4th, 11th, 6th and 5th - probably the most consistent of anyone outside the sky 4.

Why can people not see the progress we have made? Why are people so quick to want the manager sacked?

Clubs that continually change their managers get no-where ? you only have to look at Newcastle as an example. If we were to get rid of Moyes who would we get who would be willing to work on a transfer budget of approximately £2m per year nett which is Moyes's spending over his tenure.

I agree that the football at times is not good but this is more down to the lack of strength in the squad than anything ? remember last October, November, December? We played some excellent football but injuries and the African Cup broke up the team and we struggled.

Instead of berating Moyes we should be thanking him for giving us some respectability as before he arrived we were regarded as perennial relegation material, something that is not the case now.

I hope that Moyes signs his contract and that we can get back to some form sooner rather than later ? it is worth noting that we are currently 1 point behind the amount of points we collected from the corresponding fixtures last year (swapping the promoted teams for the relegated ones) so all is not lost in the league. Yes, going out of the two cups is poor but we should also remember we got terrible draws in both competitions, especially the Uefa Cup.

Let's back the team and the manager and get this season going!
Karl Jones
26   Posted 04/10/2008 at 12:05:30

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Ridiculous. Tony! What makes you think anyone else would do any better? There?d be the same funds, the same players...


You mention Wigan and Hull, but what are they ever going to do without massive investment? If their players that you mention are as good as you think, someone else will sign them and in a couple of seasons relegation will loom.

What Everton have got under DM is a stability that these one season wonders dont have... We have had a bad start, but there are reasons. How many injured players are we carrying for one?

I think it would be a stupid knee-jerk reaction to appoint a new manager at this stage. It could plunge us into real trouble. Remember what happened with the likes of Charlton, West Ham and Fulham who got fed up with long-term managers.

We,ve got to get behind Moyes and the players now more than ever. It's what being a supporter is all about.
Connor Rohrer
27   Posted 04/10/2008 at 12:11:49

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Brian Waring, they play like that because everyone in there League plays a similar brand of football. The game is slower and it?s more technique based.

We play in a League where pace and power is a big thing. There?s a lot less time, there?s alot more running and that?s why alot of flair players in the past have failed here.

We go into the European game and there?s no doubting Standard are going to be the most comfortable. That?s the way we play week in week out. And even then for both games we had more possession and we did pass it around, sadly we didn?t have enough creativity.

That?s not excusing Moyes?s football, I don?t rate it and never have. Looking at is from a realistic point of view though I?d say that there are few teams that play good football in this League. I?d actually say that 90% don?t to be honest. That?s just my opinion though, I don?t like the style we play but having watched other teams they are not exciting to watch either. I think English football as a whole is very overrated.

After the top four it?s usually the long ball teams that finish the highest. The percentage teams, that hoof the ball up look for a flick-on and hope the creative players pick it up in the final third.

Us and Villa I?m talking about, and lets not pretend they're that much different, they're not. They get it up to Carew as quick as possible, he looks for the knock-down and Ashley Young will pick it up in the final third. They score a lot of goals from set pieces.
Alan Ross
28   Posted 04/10/2008 at 12:04:38

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David Marsden
Could you please pinpoint the ignorance in Tony Marsh’s article, as the only arrogance and ignorance I see is from the fool who advocates the perpetuation of the class system. You sir, obviously regard yourself as a cut above the rest, especially those that don’t agree with you or doff their cap in your esteemed company.

I think it’s about time that everyone realised that what has gone, is not what is present or will be. Everton’s achievment under Moyes has turned the corner and every pundit under the sun can only see a decline in fortunes apart from the blind. For there are no more blind than those who refuse to see.
Joseph Fong
29   Posted 04/10/2008 at 12:43:21

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Barry Sherlock, to your comment on no pre-season, could you please tell me whose fault was that? Moyes as I read was playing golf for 2 fucking months. He should have started his scouting much early, plan the next season and go for the players we need early. Wigan and many other "smaller" teams did that so why can't we? Are we that arrogant and taking things for granted for finishing 5th last year?

As for the question who could come in to replace Moyes, I have two names. Aime Jacquet for one, and Joe Royle for another. JR brought us pace in Limpar and Kanchelskis without much money involved.... I bet he could do the same again. At least we have pace and we have a bunch of midfielders who were hard solid!!
Matthew Williams
30   Posted 04/10/2008 at 13:11:37

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Joseph Fong, I had to laugh when you mention Joy Royle the guy who gave us "dogs of war" and always played a direct style of play. He didn?t buy Limpar anyway, that was Mike Walker, and from my memory he didn?t play him too much as he said you can?t have two creative wingers in the same team. And anyway football has changed a hell of a lot since the 90s and bringing him back would be hugely negative certainly a few steps back from Moyes. He certainly wouldn?t play Osman, Pienaar and Arteta in the same team like Moyes does...
Colin Malone
31   Posted 04/10/2008 at 13:05:34

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Was Walter Smith a better manager than Moyes? Looking back, when Smith first came, he had money and brought in some class players, Dacourt, Matterazzi, then the carpet got pulled from beneath him. Wonder what would have happened if Walter Smith, had the same amount of money Moyes has spent?
Garry Martin
32   Posted 04/10/2008 at 13:09:21

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I agree, we?ve come this far under Moyes & now we need to move on. For me, ex-Blue Dave Jones would be a fair guy to try, every team he?s managed have done well. I am getting really concerned about Moyes's lack of abilty to play tactical football, also, his inabilty to motivate players.

COYB
Ged Dwyer
33   Posted 04/10/2008 at 12:47:37

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Barry Sherlock - Moyes knew Pienaar, Cahill, Vaughan, Hibbert, Osman were injured in the pre-season so it was even more important for him to make a couple of sensible signings for the midfield early on in the summer. And there were plenty of names he could have gone for (Sidwell and Bullard to name two) but the idiot was going for players he was never going to get and eventually he brought in players far too late. Yet again showing he has no idea.

The ?no money' tag is an ideal smokescreen for the Moyes brigade. There is money and he has had money but he hasn?t a clue how to use it. Just like 3 years ago when he signed Beattie, Shandy Andy, Krøldrup, Neville and Davies. He also let Stubbs go to Sunderland before he realised he?d made a mistake and brought him back. I wonder if he?ll want to do the same with Carsley? Even if Fellaini (we could have bought 3 decent players with his money) eventually comes good it?s too late for this season.

We?ve made a disastrous start and if we don?t beat Newcastle we?re in real in trouble. MOYES IS CLUELESS and if we have a good season in this average Premier League (top 3 or 4 aside), we are just as likely to struggle the following season as he has no idea how to build on it.

Joseph Fong
34   Posted 04/10/2008 at 13:25:01

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Matthew, I may have gone overboard on Joe Royle but I am sure there are many better managers than the one we have currently. I brought up Aime Jacquet coz he reminds me of Arsene Wenger and he could be the best bet to carry us further. Didier Deschamp could be another name, he took Juventus back to Seria A before being sacked to make way for Ranieri.

The point is we need someone who is used to European football if we are to achieve anything in that sector. We need a winner manager who is familiar with success and want more success. Moyes has been wandering in Championship with Preston for god knows how long and he will never take us further. He has never fully tasted the success other managers have had.

Take Mark Hughes for instance, I think he is becoming the next big thing. He attracts big players like Santa Cruz and McCarthy. He has tasted success with Man Utd during his playing days domestically and internationally and he knows what it takes. He is currently being linked to any possible job and the most seeked-out manager in BPL. And at the moment Everton FC needs that mentality to push further.

Ralph Wetzels
35   Posted 04/10/2008 at 13:29:48

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I liked the pre-match team-talk Tony:

"I will give you the James Vaughan treatment if you’re not careful. Get out there and run you twat. " That one really cracked me up. More of that please, Tony.
Andrew Codling
36   Posted 04/10/2008 at 13:42:44

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5 wins out of 23 is relegation form!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matthew Williams
37   Posted 04/10/2008 at 13:58:59

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The problem is, Joseph, the managers you mention could do a decent job but I am not sure they would want to come to a club with a limited budget ? certainly not Hughes.

I liked what Mike Newell was doing with his career. He did well with Hartlepool and got Luton playng some great attacking football before he said some things about that woman ref and got sacked. But he deserves another chance, might be a bit soon for Everton though. I still think Moyes will turn it around though

Tony Marsh
38   Posted 04/10/2008 at 13:59:34

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David Marsden how can you call me a thicko mate? I mean I got 2 O-Levels when I left school. Table Tennis and Colouring In. Not a bad haul if I do say so myself.
Anthony Hughes
39   Posted 04/10/2008 at 14:08:25

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Barry Sherlock, where you there when Arsenal thrashed us 7-0 and Oldham dumped us out the FA Cup??
Adam Wilkinson
40   Posted 04/10/2008 at 14:05:11

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Obviously I'm totally gutted about the start to the season, especially after the long black summer.

We seem to be compleatly devoid of width and pace on the flanks, Pienaar will be a welcome return when fully fit, but for me Arteta is a central midfielder who is to slow for the wing.

Shame we didn't get that lad from Inter, do you guys know of any talent in the youth team that could do a job on the wing? (please don't say Van Der Mayde).

Or what about Vaughan? ? could he do a job? Moyes seems to like playing people out of position.....

Barry Sherlock
41   Posted 04/10/2008 at 14:56:07

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Joesph Fong:
Joe Royle, had to laugh at that one! That was THE Everton team to most compare to a "classic" Wimbledon side. Direct, dirty, hard, nasty but okay if thats what floats your boat..... personnally I think we would be lucky to finish most PL sides with 7 players with refs these days!!! Moyes was NOT playing golf for two months. He went the Euros. He was talking to various players and then the CEO resigns and no money was released to bring in any players (until the last minute). Have you got any idea of how many players "fell through"? Lots. The lad from Inter would have been very good. SWP would have been very good. But they didn’t happen and now we have to go with what we’ve got.

I’m not saying the sun shines with Moyes, but how can WE finish 5th and then the following season sack the man after 6 PL games? Spurs did it with Jol and I said that that was wrong. He was a good manager (BTW now top of the German league!). If Fergie finishes 3rd this season will ManU sack him; no don’t be daft. Alan Ross said earlier what has gone has gone. We can’t be eternally grateful to DM for getting us 4th or 5th. But what I believe you have to do is agree that he is a good manager to get us to 4th or 5th and say that a good manager deserves more time to put the wrongs right. Lets not be a knee jerk club and get behind the team AND the manager.
Connor Rohrer
42   Posted 04/10/2008 at 15:07:54

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"Take last night for example: Give Moyes credit for going 4-4-2 but once out on the field there was it still no proper game plan.?

Tony, what tactics would you have used? What system would you have gone with and how would you have set us out.

I’ve criticised Moyes?s tactics in the past but I couldn’t on Thursday. He went with a positive system, he played two upfront and he brought Baines into it who is an attacking fullback. He chopped and changed the tactics all through the game to try and hurt Standard.

4-4-2, 4-3-3, Arteta in the middle, Osman in the middle, Cahill switched left, right and centre and we even tried to use Saha as the link man behind the front two. We where playing pass and move football, we brought Anichebe and went for a more direct route.

How would you have went with the players available, considering you have all the answers I?d really like to know. I?d like to here the master tactician speak.

The only thing I was a bit miffed about was the selection of Neville in midfield and even then I could sort of see where Moyes was coming from. Castillo is a good little player but he has a tendency to take up bad positions a leave us exposed, Neville on the other hand is limited but he does have the discipline to play that role and let Arteta, Osman and Cahill attack.

For me we lost because of individual mistakes in the first leg, not because of Moyes tactics or team selection. Moyes can?t stop Joleon Lescott and Joseph Yobo having bad days at the office and making individual mistakes. That?s just the way it is, our defence is struggling at the moment and individuals are letting us down.

In the second leg Standard sat back and cut off all the space in behind, any midfielder would find it hard to create in these circumstances and lets be honest Liege had a very good defence. Xabi Alonso and Steven Gerrard got nothing out of them and these are supposedly world class players. We where also missing our most creative player in Steven Pienaar, on the day we needed a bit of individual brilliance or a mistake and it didn?t come.

Anyway, I?d love to here your views. I seems you have all the answers when it comes to good football, tactics and players.
Tony Williams
43   Posted 04/10/2008 at 15:38:15

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Connor, don’t hold your breath mate, it is the usual Marsh tactic, hit with a contraversial statement and stand back to watch the in fighting.

It is quite ironic that we had the exact same articles last year when we had a little bit of a dodgy start then he went missing for a couple of months, returned with a tongue in cheek endorsement of the now well playing team and returned in force when the arse fell out of our form.

We had 12 points from our first 10 games last season, so we are 1 win and 2 draws from 4 games away from equally that. 2 wins and we are ahead.

We are continuing a bad run of form from the arse end of last season but when the newbies bed in and we start getting some confidence back to our goalie and defence, I can forsee a better future.

I like to remain optimistic and not cry for our manager’s head every time we lose a few games on the bounce. I would like to think our fans have a lot more knowledge and wherewithall about them than the average toon army monkey....maybe I am wrong...it happens
Barry Sherlock
44   Posted 04/10/2008 at 15:54:08

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Anthony Hughes,
I was at Arsenal. Missed the Oldham match. I also saw us go out to Shrewsbury. What?s your point?

All teams lose games. I saw Man U get battered by Arsenal 6-1. So what? Utd got done by City last year home and away? So what?

We are going through a bad run - no doubt about it. But we will start winning again, when we do I still don?t think we will win every game from now 'til the end of the season!
Brian Waring
45   Posted 04/10/2008 at 16:11:27

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Barry Sherlock, 5 wins out of 23 games, if you think that is just a bad run, then.....?
Dave Wilson
46   Posted 04/10/2008 at 16:15:19

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Barry Sherlock
What the fuck are you talking about lad?
Joe Royle's team, direct, dirty, hard, and nasty???

A little history lesson for you:

When Big Joe took over, we were nailed to the foot of the table, we were getting turned over by everyone. Joe recognised instantly we had a very soft center, he paired Barry Horne with Joe Parkinson and demanded we toughened up in midfield, along with people like John Ebrrell, the guys responded, adding the required steel.

Big Joe casually christened his midfielders his "dogs of war" ? something he later regreted.

We moved steadily up the table and started our magnificent cup run, we completely annihilated a Spurs team full of top class internationals in the semis, make no mistake, our boys could play and we proved it by outplaying the Mancs in the final to lift the cup.

People like Jackson, Ablet, Graham Stuart, Rideout, Anders Limpar, Amokachi, Hinchcliffe, didn't have a nasty tackle between them.

Big Joe added Kanchelskis ? remember playing the Shite off the park at Anfield? ? and with big Dunc up front we had a decent team.

Back Moyes if you want, Barry, that's your prerogative, but please don't run down an excellent Everton team or belittle Big Joe's achievement to try to make your point.

Tony Marsh
47   Posted 04/10/2008 at 17:12:46

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Well said, Dave Wilson. How anyone can even start to critisise Big Joe after what he done is beyond me. Royal is an Everton legend and it was he alone who kept us up in 1994-95. I mean these numbskulls are glorifying DM and for what?

As for Tony Williams and Connor, well if you two can't see that when we play we don't have any real pattern or style of play other than the shite on offer, then you haven't got a clue the pair of you.

The reason I wasn't jumping through hoops when we had a mini revival last season was because I knew come crunch time (ie, the big games) Moyes would revert back to his Tortoise mode and we would fuck up. I did post back then several times I even gave a glowing report on the team when I arrived back from Nuremberg but do you know what? ? I always feel as though the wheels are likely to come off any second under Moyes and I am right.

While the likes of Martin O'Neill is slowly but surely building Aston Villa up again, little by little, the improvement is there for all to see. O'Neill is putting down concrete foundations at his club while Moyes is building on a lump of sand. We are always up, down, up, down... selling and buying ? but we never seem to progress in a real sense.

Ok, improved league position under Moyes but surely the only way was up from where we were. You people seem to think Moyes has done the club a big favour by pushing up the league when I see it as where we should be anyway regardless of the manager.

Walter Smith worked under terrible conditions while he was here. Boardroom wrangles and takeovers every other week. The Kings Dock falling through and very little if any money to spend. Can you imagine the mess we would be in under Moyes in those circumstances?

Moyes is a dud. A waste of space who can't teach anything new to the players. It's time to go and if you can't see it then we are fucked as a club. You keep singing OH DAVEY MOYES and it's you lot putting the nails in our coffin.
Barry Sherlock
48   Posted 04/10/2008 at 17:10:35

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Ok.
Brian;
FFS are we counting pre-season and last season??? PLEASE. We are 6 games into this season. We judge every manager on how we do over the course of the season. Man U are 1 point ahead of us!!!

Dave;
Don?t need the history lesson. I know what we won under JR and I know what the team consisted of. I don?t think I belittled Joe?s or the team achievements by stating that I don?t want to go back to that. We had poor leagues finishes under JR. We won the cup which was magic.

But what I was trying to say was, Joe would not be my candidate for the job now. He has been out of the game for a long time and is out of touch for the PL. He had a great derby record but his teams never finished high up in the league. In the PL he never gave us a European run.

If DM went tomorrow, would he get the job? Because that?s what was being suggested.

Connor Rohrer
49   Posted 04/10/2008 at 17:40:31

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"As for Tony Williams and Connor, well if you two can't see that when we play we don't have any real pattern or style of play other than the shite on offer then you haven't got a clue the pair of you."

Completely dodging the question, my post was very clear to be honest, what would you have done differently to David Moyes in the Standard Liege game. What did he do wrong tactically on the day?

I quite clearly stated I am not a fan of Moyes?s style of play, I critisise him when I see wrong in what he?s doing. Against Liege I couldn?t have a go at him and I couldn?t see what he did wrong.

Tony "Master Tactician" Marsh ? what would you have done differently?
Barry Sherlock
50   Posted 04/10/2008 at 17:37:15

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Tony,
Do you really think the conditions DM is working under are great? CEO walking out. Bits of money coming in here or there. Having to sell before we can buy. Having "make-do". DM has found us talented footballers in Arteta and Cahill and Pienaar. WS bought alot of duds. Back-of-the-Echo, Madar, Ginola, Gazza etc. DM buys young talent. He also bought some decent lads as well Marco Mat and Oli Dacourt.

You mention solid foundations. Having young talent here and a good youth system in place. That?s the mark of a good club. When we need to sell, like AJ not fitting in we get back what we paid.

DM is still our manager and I think he is still the right man to lead us. He won't always be. One day he will go. But I don?t think that that should be this week or next. Give him a chance to put it right.
James McGlone
51   Posted 04/10/2008 at 17:56:57

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I’m delighted Moyes is set to sign his contract, and hope he stays until the day your head blows up with rage - just so it happens as soon as possible.

Idiot.
Tony Marsh
52   Posted 04/10/2008 at 17:47:43

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OK Connor. For starters I would of played Neville at right back which is his best position. Hibbert is a liabilty and has been for years now. Castillio has been playing well from what I have seen and he would've taken Pip's place in the middle of the park. Result: stronger back line and more control in the middle.

Cahill can't play in a 4-4-2 and be effective. We all know this so why doesn't Moyes? Cahill should've been sacrificed ? although I love the player, it's all about systems. I would not've started with Saha as I think he is unfit and he is finished anyhow. Big Vic or Vaughan would've been my choice with the Yak up front. Maybe give Saha the final 20 mins if that. Vaughan's pace on from the start or Vic's presence was surely a better option than what Saha offered.

Pienaar, who I don't rate, would've started in place of Cahill and if it didn't work then throw Tim on second half. As it was there was no balance or cohesion and it turned into a shambles.

There would've been no place for Baines in the back four. Why fuck about with it in an important away game in Europe? Stay as we were. At least we know what we get with Yobo, Neville, Jags and Lescott. Baines stunk all night.

How's that for starters ? and don't even get me started on tactics, lad.
Matthew Williams
53   Posted 04/10/2008 at 17:58:04

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If you think Joe Royle is such a legend, Tony, you would think you would be able to spell his name properly. "Royle" not "Royal". He did very well at Everton but that was over 10 years ago. Football has changed and he has been out of football for a long time and is very old now. And I don?t think we did play that great under him apart from an odd game here and there. He did favour the direct style of play that a lot of fans seem to be moaning about now with Moyes.
Barry Sherlock
54   Posted 04/10/2008 at 18:01:07

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Don?t play Saha because he?s not fit...... but play Pienaar from the start...... okkidokey.

I?m surprised. I really am. I thought being such a negative person you would play with 6 centre halves. 8-1-1. Maybe get rid of Moyes and bring in George Graham, he?s as negative in tactics as you are in EFC posts.
Dave Wilson
55   Posted 04/10/2008 at 17:49:51

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Barry
If you asked all Evertonians which they would prefer, 5th + 6th under Moyes, or JR?s escape act, cup win, 7th place finish and magnificent derby victories then I think you?ll find your in a minority mate. You're right though, Royle will not be getting the job ? pity.

Connor,
You're having a laugh aren't you, mate? Playing two up top was hardly an act of bravery, we had to win the game. Playing Neville in midfield when all of Evertonia knows he can't play there was madness; playing Cahill in a 4-4-2 was another mistake none of us would have made.

It's no use saying you liked the formation when once again DM tried to wedge square pegs into round holes.

Barry Sherlock
56   Posted 04/10/2008 at 18:19:59

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Dave,

That?s what I said originally: it?s whatever floats your boat. But FOURTH (with the RS 5th), 5th and 6th versus Cup, derbies wins and great escapes. Really mate? We were fighting for survival all the time vs Those big games against Villarreal, so nearly.... The good Uefa Cup run last year... beating the eventual winners.

Beating Arsenal. Beating the RS 3-nil. Beating Sunderland 7-1. We?ve had some good times under DM. I know it?s hard to remember that right know because its still hurts from the other night. Joe Royle gave us some good times (I even liked the shirt more then) but so has DM. I would stick with the "minority" and DM.
Connor Rohrer
57   Posted 04/10/2008 at 18:17:38

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Tony Marsh,

Castillo was dragged off at half time twice against Hull and Blackburn. I can see why Moyes doesn?t want to use him in a game like this, the lad didn?t look arsed against Blackburn, he didn?t look like he wanted to be there.

He also doesn?t protect his back four well, he seems to be more of a tidy player than a ball winner. Look at the goal that Blackburn scored against us, the one-two took him right out the game. I think there?s talent there but he?s not doing the basics when he plays.

Neville is a lot of things but he does hold his position and he will chase and get stuck in. I?m no Neville fan at all but I can see why Moyes used him.

Saha is far from finished and he?s about as fit as Vaughan and Anichebe. Anichebe just come back from an ankle injury, after 5-10 minutes on he hurt it again and started limping. He wasn?t ready and Vaughan wasn?t even on the bench, he?s still working himself back from fitness and has looked very rusty of late. Blackburn and Portsmouth proved this.

Saha has looked bright in every game he?s played, when he plays he?s a very good striker and he has the pace and intelligence suited to European football. He was the best option, that is quite obvious. I don?t see how you can say he?s finished to be honest.

You use the fitness issue with Saha yet you?d play Steven Pienaar? Very strange. Pienaar obviously wasn?t fit enough to play 90 minutes, if he was he?d have been playing as Moyes rates him highly and he?s our most creative player. He wasn?t fit enough to start.

So really Cahill had to start in a four man midfield and considering a lot of people make him out to be our best player he should be able to adapt to a different formation. There?s no doubt he can do a job in that position, it?s not his strongest but he can do a job. With the limited midfield options he had to play there.

The Baines comment baffles me as well. I remember after the Derby you where moaning about Moyes dropping Baines. You said he was scared to play an attacking minded fullback. It?s funny how things change. Baines played because he?s good on the ball, because he?s an attacking player and he can get forward. He doesn?t hoof, he keeps the ball on the floor and that?s what we needed.

You?ve done team selection now, lets here your tactics. What would you have done differently LAD?
Tony Marsh
58   Posted 04/10/2008 at 18:41:17

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Look, Connor, we can waffle on all day about formations and tactics but the truth is the squad is threadbare of both quality and quantity that Moyes must shoulder the blame after 7 years in the job. Why bring in Fellaini for £15 million knowing he can't play when other clubs are snapping up midfielders left, right and center?

Dithering has left us short in all areas and Moyes and his team are starting to pay the price. I am off to get Smashed...
Dave Wilson
59   Posted 04/10/2008 at 18:45:45

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Barry

Your memory?s playing tricks, mate.
JR didn't get us into a relegation fight, Mike Walker did. JR just got us out of it.

I believe Royle's Everton accumilated 61 points and finished 7th, I?m quite sure that's more points than we got when we finished 4th under Moyes.

Maybe it's my memory?s turn to play tricks... I?m sure someone will shoot me down if I?m wrong!
Barry Sherlock
60   Posted 04/10/2008 at 19:01:41

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Dave,
I think when he took over we were in the mire. Mike Walker had to go. JR won his first game against the RS 2-nil and we scraped relegation at the end.

The next season we finished 6th which was respectable.

The following season we were shite. We were near the bottom when Joe left in March. Dave Watson took over on a temp basis and we finished up 15th.

Like I said earlier, it?s not that I didn?t like Joe because I did. I just think we have come a long long way with DM. And he still has a lot to give.
Connor Rohrer
61   Posted 04/10/2008 at 19:08:56

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Tony Marsh,

Could we actually be just going through a blip? These things can happen mate, it?s not all perfect in football. Every club has there ups and downs.

Like I said earlier this week you said exactly the same thing last season. We had poor players, Moyes is a shit manager, we where going to do shit in the League etc etc. I think we all know what happened, we ended up having a very decent season.

I?m not saying that is the case but I could very well be. Bar one or two players this is the team that finished 5th last season. Surely they can?t be that bad?

As you said we could waffle all day but at the end of the day he isn?t leaving, he?s actually said he?s going to sign. What do we do then?

Do we moan, week-in, week-out... or do we see what happens, give him time to get the new players bedded in and get some of his players back from injury? I?d rather do that to be honest, let's see what David Moyes can do with this season.

He?s isn?t going anywhere, we may as well. Sorry to break that to you.

What happened to giving players a chance? Fellaini is 20 years old and anyone with half a brain would be able to see he has talent and he has the right attributes we where looking for. Again, let's see how he does, let him find his role in the team and let him adapt.
Dave Jeanrenaud
62   Posted 04/10/2008 at 20:47:46

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Connor,

Good stuff from you on this thread. Please continue to challenge Mr Marsh on his repetitive nonsense. I?m still pissing myself about Marshy slagging Moyes for not starting with Tommy Gravesen in the derby at Anfield last year. Master tactician indeed!

Fact is that it is not easy managing a Premier League football club. That is why when Tony occasionally responds to challenges over how he would have done things, he invariably makes a tit of himself.

Tony, you are like a broken record. It is the same article every time we lose a game. You must hate it when we win a few and you cannot spout your rubbish.

David Moyes is not beyond criticism by any means. His dawdling over this new contract has seriously affected our start to this season. He remains however the best man for the job. If he can sign his contract and re-energise himself and his players then I will be one happy Evertonian.

In Moyes I continue to trust.
John Andrews
63   Posted 04/10/2008 at 22:16:55

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Connor, I suspect that you and Tony may be talking at cross purposes.
Essentially Tony is talking about the quality of football served up under the tutelage of Moyes. I do agree with him that it is absolutely appalling. Also, we now have the majority of players back from their injuries and we are still playing crap football.

Moyes?s tactical awareness must be questioned. To keep on playing Neville in midfield defies belief ? especially when we do have Castillo available. On the other hand, Castillo may well have been aware that he was not going to get a look in against Liege. As it turned out he didn?t.

I have read Tony's article again and it is clear that it is Moyes he is unhappy with. On this point I find it hard to disagree.

Bilbo Baggins
64   Posted 04/10/2008 at 22:40:48

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Listen lads, I have just recieved some positive news. After a very long wait and missing out on 2 big openings when thousands of people were present, EFC will be getting a store in the new Liverpool 1 development. But wait for it............. it wont be until next June 09 when Kitbag take over the merchandising from JJB.
Better late than never, I suppose...
Peter Bourke
65   Posted 05/10/2008 at 00:02:36

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You're a one-trick pony, Tony Marsh. Every article you have posted this season is all of the same subject matter. Why do the editors at ToffeeWeb continue to publish this material when it is a rehashed repeat of previous posts.
We get the message Tony.......You want Moyes out and we have read your reasons on a number of times. You are well within your rights to submit your article so I suppose I will just have to stop reading them. No need to post any more repetitive drivel.
Mike Beav
66   Posted 05/10/2008 at 00:33:24

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Connor, you are talking sense here and Dave Jeanrenaud I think you sum the situation up perfectly.

For me there have been 3 disappointments since the end of last season.

1. The awful transfer dealings of the summer (for which DM must take some responsibility although none of us know to what extent as we don't know what budget he was given).

2. The performance of the players ? when Moyes needed his big players to perform, they have let him and the supporters down ? badly.

And most importantly (because its the only thing within our powers) ..

3. The support from us, the fans.

Before everyone slags me down for the last point, I think we all need to take a step back. I have been at every home game this season and to pick out one player, the treatment of Joleon Lescott has been embarrassing. JL has been outstanding for us for the past 2 years and is now unquestionably suffering from a lack of form ? surely a time for him to be made aware of the total backing of the Everton support? But no, all I hear is people slagging him off.

We need to start SUPPORTING our team. They are struggling at the moment, no doubt about it, but isn't that when we should prove the level of our support? JL will without doubt come good and find his form ? he is a quality player. But next summer, when the Chelseas and Arsenals come knocking on his door, will he remember the lack of support he received when he really wanted it?

We CAN make a difference ? let's start supporting the team against Newcastle.
Ian Tunny
67   Posted 05/10/2008 at 01:06:13

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You really do talk crap Tony. You quietly disappear when results start going our way again.

I can't understand how anybody can hate Moyes so much. You rave about Zaki who has only played a handful of games and Valencia. I'd rather have Arteta and Cahill. Other teams will make good sinings from time to time you can't blame Moyes for not getting every bargain out there.

Get a grip!
Derek Thomas
68   Posted 05/10/2008 at 04:43:20

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Connor: 5 from 23 is NOT a blip and you are, I feel, being slightly selective memorywise, I distinctly remember you and me discussing the fact of poor quality football 2 or more yrs ago and you were, then, of the never mind the quality it’s the result that matters tendency. I know this for a fact, you, or anybody else for that matter can check the archive and see.

As for tactics and managerial replacements, this hoofball virus is deep seated and it won’t be cured over night with two tablets and a good nights kip.

If left untreated, these things turn into relegation pneumonia.

This is Moyeses problem and if he can’t or won’t see it and / or fix it then get rid, NOW. Before the patient is ready for the Leeds and Nottingham F. Hospice.

Play crap football and get a ’ result ’ yes, but with the proviso that I can moan about not playing BETTER FOOTBALL.

At the moment we are doing neither.
Joseph Fong
69   Posted 05/10/2008 at 05:29:14

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Well said Derek!!
Dave Wilson
70   Posted 05/10/2008 at 06:01:22

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I honestly believe some of the people posting here wanting to talk tactics, but dont actually understand the game.

We were actually playing with three up front at one stage on Thursday, until Saha was injured, without pace power and passing ability in your team; that isn't tactical intelligence ? it's desperation. We were desperate because we had got it so very wrong in the in the 130 minutes before hand

Anyone who understands the game knows a 4-5-1 ? think Chelsea, with Drogba being supported by Cole, Lampard, Decco, Ballack etc ? can be far more expansive and attacking than a 4-4-2 ? Arsenal under G Graham. It has nothing to do with the line-up, it's the type of player you use and the restrictions / freedom you give him.

Everyone knows ? and I mean everyone ? that Neville can't pass the ball; we also know Cahill is an impact player, great at getting on the end of attacks, but ask him to find the pass to win you a game and you could be waiting a while.

Castillo was a must, it was a European game where keeping the ball is the name of the game. Have a look at a replay, you?ll lose count of the amount of times Osman, Cahill and Neville surrendered possession

Moyes looks like he?s about to sign, so I?ll now give him total support, but when he gets it horribly wrong, like he did on Thursday AND last Saturday, I won't pretend it didn't happen.

Neil Pearse
71   Posted 05/10/2008 at 11:44:57

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Agreeing with you Dave - before we all agree that we HAVE to play 4-4-2 and therefore Cahill doesn’t fit. There is nothing wrong or negative about playing in effect 4-1-3-1-1 - with Castillo in front of the defence, then probably Pienaar, Arteta and Fellaini, then Cahill behind Yakubu or Saha. This after all is basically the formation that got us the best results and performances last year, and seems to be the one that Moyes is most comfortable with.
Connor Rohrer
72   Posted 05/10/2008 at 12:43:44

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Dave Wilson, when we went 4-3-3 Neville reverted to right back and we had Osman, Arteta and Cahill in midfield. All three attacking minded players. Cahill getting up and down in the box to box role, Osman linking things together and Arteta as the main play maker. That’s what Moyes was looking for, I don’t see the problem to be honest and I thought we looked better when we reverted to 4-3-3.

Both Osman and Arteta keep the ball and are suited to European football. On Castillo, Moyes has dragged him off twice in the last two games he’s played and as I’ve said before his positioning doesn’t look very good at the moment. I think there’s talent there but there’s doubting he’s left us exposed when he’s played.
Connor Rohrer
73   Posted 05/10/2008 at 12:55:54

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Derek Thomas,

I?d rather concentrate on this years results to be honest, last season?s over. It was obvious that our squad got to us in the later part of the season, missing players like Cahill and Arteta aswell as reverting to our unfavoured 4-4-2 formation meant we where going to struggle. Thankfully, we retained 5th.

This season is different, a new beginning and fresh start. We are only 7 games into the season, we are starting to get new players back from injury and new players will hopefully bed in. I?d like to see what happens before I make my decision on whether Moyes is good enough to take this club forward or not. If you can back to me after a little later on in the season and I?d be able to give you my proper opinion. That?s just the way I am, I believe in giving managers time. Especially a manager who has got us 5th and 6th in the last two seasons.

We did have a discussion, and I am a results over performance man. I always have been and at that time especially I thought Moyes had a limited amount of good footballers. Players who revel in the pass and move game. Now with the players at his disposal I?d like to see some decent football, he showed it in spells during last season and I?m sure he can get back to that level this season. That just my opinion. I think he and the players are capable of producing better football and entertainment.

?If left untreated, these things turn into relegation pneumonia.?

That?s true, lets hope Moyes can turn that around and get us back to winning ways. We are only 7 games into the Premier League season, It?s defiantly a thing he and the players can do. We?ll see what happens, unlike other I am not to worried yet.

What I will say is I?ve heard Neville is out today and Pienaar might start. Maybe we will bet some good football today.
Dave Wilson
74   Posted 05/10/2008 at 13:03:53

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Connor

I think you feel if you say "dragged off" it kinda justifies Moyes substituting Castillo, it doesnt.
we were screaming out for somebody who can pass the ball. Osman and Cahill continually get caught in possession, that along with Nevilles distribution will expose us to a far greater degree than Castillo’s positional sense, I lost count the other night at the amount of times we gave away possession when the whole team was advancing, this is our main weekness as we dont have the pace to recover when hit by a counter attack

By the way, Neville was also "dragged off " after about an hour,
Connor Rohrer
75   Posted 05/10/2008 at 13:29:30

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Dave Wilson,

Why doesn’t it? Moyes has subbed him at half time in the last two games against mediocre opposition. Maybe he’s not convinced or maybe he doesn’t feel he’s ready yet.

There are many reasons why he didn’t play, the fact that he doesn’t protect the back four aswell as Neville is also one.

When your playing with a midfield who isn’t disiplined (Tim Cahill) you need someone who is disiplined alongside him. Castillo isn’t a disiplined player and he definatly needs work in that area, Neville on the other hand is disiplined, he will give a 100% and he will put his foot in.

Also, I think your going over the top on Castillo’s passing, he’s a tidy player but that’s about it to be honest. And even against Standard in the first leg he made some suicide passes that he got stick for the next day. Moyes didn’t want to use him, he wanted a base to build on and he obviously felt Neville was the better option on the day.

By the way Neville was dragged off in the 89th minute because he had a hamstring injury. Lets hope he’s out today.
David Galves
76   Posted 05/10/2008 at 15:07:58

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Connor,
Your justified criticisms of Castillo simply highlight the fact that Moyes has failed to find a replacement for Carsley. The fact that he isn’t upto the job and that we have to rely on Neville trying to do the job is surely a terrible inditement of Moyes.
Connor Rohrer
77   Posted 05/10/2008 at 18:52:16

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David Galves,

I agree with you there, I don?t think he has replaced Carsley. I thought he had but todays game showed he hasn?t.

Fellaini isn?t a defensive midfielder, I?m hoping Castillo or Neville can provide a short term solution.

A defensive minded midfielder is needed though ? we don?t have anyone who can win a tackle bar Jagielka.
Dave Wilson
78   Posted 05/10/2008 at 19:29:14

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I don't believe what I?m reading here... He?s (Castillo) only played a couple of cameos, ok it's obvious he?s no world beater but he?s already hit more accurate passes than Neville, Hibbert and Cahill put together.

These people's inability to make/receive a decent pass is the reason we play hoofball.
Bill Hawker
79   Posted 06/10/2008 at 03:01:04

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Quoting Tony Marsh in response to Conner Rohrer about tactics:

"Pienaar, who I don’t rate...."

Says it all really.

You don’t have a clue do you?


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