I'm sure that you've already guessed that I am pro-Moyes. I think that he has done a really good job so far at Everton, he has made massive progress since he took over. Yes, he has had a fair bit of cash to spend and he has used it very well in some cases and not so well in others.
He has taken us from perennial relegation battlers, to the brink of Champion's League football. It hasn't always been pretty and we have had a couple of pretty poor seasons since he's been with us. But I believe that he is building something gradually. He has been bringing in the right sort of players in general since he took over and his successful buys outweigh his unsuccessful ones for sure.
This season has been a huge disappointment, for all of us, so far. At the end of last season we expected some talent in to push on and try to break the top-4. The summer was an enormous let-down for us all, seemingly from Moyes's demeanour, it was a let-down for him more than most.
No-one knows why the summer's transfer dealings went so wrong but it appears to me that we were skint. The AJ transfer more or less paid for Fellaini and the players out pretty much covered the wages for the players in. All I can read into it is that Moyes did not get the backing he wanted to kick-on and fulfill his ambitions for the club. He never made a secret of his contract depending upon Everton being able to compete and rightly so. I wouldn't want to be doing a job where I knew that I could never do what I really wanted to do, who would?
I think the signing of Fellaini could prove a good one and it's a sign that Moyes is looking long-term, rather than for quick wins with potential longer term losses. I'm hoping that stability will now allow continuity in our general improvement. Although it's difficult at this point of our season to talk of improvement, the job at hand is to steady the ship and look at qualifying again for Europe. And the club until now is on a general upward curve since Moyes took over. The next step is going to be the most difficult, to get from the best of the rest to genuine contenders.
Can Moyes make us into genuine challengers for honours? I honestly don't know. I can be as frustrated as the next man with the football I see at times. Again, this season has been an unmitigated disaster to-date, so the bumper contract signing against this backdrop is really bad timing. However, last season Moyes has proved that he can get the players at his disposal to really play good football. Some of it was verging on great football for a short period of last season. So who is to say that he can't do it again?
For me, the key player for that football last season was Pienaar, the link-up play between him and Arteta and the other front guys was bloody brilliant at times. I hope that he can help out with that a bit now that he's back to fitness. I know it's not all about one single player, but look at the squad we have now. As far as I'm concerned it is as good as any outside the Sky 4. There are weaknesses there and it can be vastly improved, but apart from United and Chelsea, who can't? Now it is up to Moyes to prove his worth and get these players playing.
Moyes has done an awful lot for Everton and I'm not being 'happy in our mediocrity' which a lot of people get accused of on here. I want to win things, I want to see us in the Champion's League and I want lots of silverware. But also we need to be realistic about all this; there are two solutions to our situation: One is money, lots of it and a very good manager. The other is an enourmous amount of hard work, belief and a very good manager.
We can be happy with our slow progress with a greater goal in mind. We are allowed to be happy that we got to a semi-final and at the same time disappointed not to make the final. We can also be happy that we had a 100% record until the Fiorentina game in the Uefa Cup, especially when you look at our last foray into Europe before that. But still it's disappointing that we couldn't quite get past the Italians, with the cup so close. It's not black and white ? "you're happy with mediocrity, I want to win trophies".
Moyes is a good manager, as he has proved with two Manager of the Year awards and his turnaround of EFC. Remember Keegan's "they are where we want to be" statement last season? There have been several times where Everton have been cited as the model of what the rest of the Premier League aspire to.
Only an idiot or a liar would deny that Moyes has done a good job at Everton up until this season. Yes, he still has a lot to prove. He needs to show that he is the man to improve us again and that's a huge task. Yes, the football we've seen since Fiorentina last year has been poor. And yes, for £70k a week, he needs to be serving up something a bit special. But to slate him in the fashion that has been happening here is just ridiculous. I'm happy to give him a year or two to try and improve us again. I'd rather prove that he isn't the man for the job than go on a potential disastrous search for his ideal replacement.
He needs time to figure out the next job at hand. He's done a really good job in polishing turds and getting us to where we are. The next step is a whole different challenge and he needs to adapt to that challenge. To kick him out and throw umpteen different names at the job is a very risky path to potentially undo the foundations put in place over several years.
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1 Posted 16/10/2008 at 15:47:05
2 Posted 16/10/2008 at 15:52:52
3 Posted 16/10/2008 at 15:51:45
David Moyes is now the top earner at the club and his weekly pay packet is far bigger than any of the top earning players at the club. Yakubu and Neville are the big earners but both coming in under £50k a week.
Do you think Sir Alex is on more money than Rooney, Rohnaldo or Ferdinand at Man Utd? No chance.... Do you think Mark Hughes takes home more than Rohbino or Wright-Philips? No way. How about Big Phil Scholari at Chelsea ? is he pocketing more than Lampard, Terry or Ballack? I don't think so. Does Rafa Benethus get more than Torres or Gerrard?Not in a million years.
Now we have the ludicrous situation at Everton were players are on less money than the manager and you can just imagine the resentment and jealousy this will now cause. We are talking about a man who has won nothing as either a player or manager, who is out-earning the players at the club by at least £20k a week.
It's a powder keg waiting to go off and imagine how the fans will feel when Moyes has taken us in to the bottom 3 by Xmas and still draws his £70k each week because that's where we are heading make no mistake.
Only at Everton would such nonsense be allowed to happen and Moyes better be ready for the flak that will come his way when things get even worse than they are now. Two losses in the coming games and we are on the way to another of Moyes's trough seasons.
Believe me the tin hats better get dusted off at the Kenwright and Moyes mansions in the coming months... and all you lot thinking this was a great idea ? just watch this space.
4 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:16:37
I think we?ve a long way to go before properly claiming that ?best of the rest? title.
5 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:03:31
While I believe that Carsley was, at best, a hard-working journeyman, to let him go without a replacement lined up was simply bad management.
It has seemed to me lately that both the manager and players are lacking in the passion that was the Moyes hallmark. Still, though I?d rather he?d gone, this is what we?ve got. So let?s get behind him.
6 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:14:15
If someone could guarantee that Moyes?s departure from Everton would reap rewards in silverware, then I?d be all for it. But no-one can.
3 examples: Ramos at Spurs and a shite-load of cash, they?re bottom. Houllier at Liverpool and a shite-load of cash, nowhere near winning the Premier League. Benitez at Liverpool and a shite-load of cash also nowhere near winning the Premier Leahue.
The only yawn on here is Tony?s assertions that we?re going to be in the bottom 3 by Xmas. Heard your pessimistic predictions regurgitated dozens of times over the last however many seasons and yet we seem to have managed top-6 finishes 3 out of 4 seasons.......
Keep predicting Tony and one day you might get it right. Then you can tell us all that you told us so.
7 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:20:03
8 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:11:44
9 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:19:45
10 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:09:26
11 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:24:34
I think the clubs who do are mad. What does it say about the level of importance to the club. To think any individual player is worth more than the perpetually succesful Alex Ferguson for instance is wrong.
12 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:31:26
Houlier, shed load of cash, Didn?t he walk away with 5 trophies while with the rs? beyond Moyes?s wildest dreams, methinks!
13 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:33:47
Moyes is just so predictable and negative, you just know against Arsenal and the Mancs, it will be ultra defensive. It would be great just for once, for him to just send the lads out and go for it, you never know what might happen with this attitude. If we ended up getting a tonking, I would accept it, as long as we had a go. Thing is, can you see us going for it?
14 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:47:31
To be fair, although Liverpool got nowhere near the title they did win a few trophies and they were far nearer to top of the Premier League than we have been. Will Moyes better Benitez?s record at Liverpool? I?d love to dream but it just isn?t going to happen. Only when we get a manager who?s not in awe of the ?bigger? clubs. That?s what was good about Mourinho when he arrived in the Premier League. He didn?t give a toss for Arsenal's, Liverpool's or Mancester United?s history.
15 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:56:15
What if Yakubu scores 35 goals this season and wants a pay rise? "We ain't got it," says Bill. "Well, soft lad's on £70k a week ? I want parity." Surely you see it, FFS... WAKE UP.
16 Posted 16/10/2008 at 17:00:22
Yes Tony Marsh,
Ridiculous that the manager be on more money than those working for him.
17 Posted 16/10/2008 at 16:59:35
It's nothing to do with being in awe, it's about having the money to compete ? that's why football is crap these days.
And another thing ? what's all this racket that the youngsters listen to? They dont even play their own instruments.
[Exit stage right, chuntering...]
18 Posted 16/10/2008 at 17:05:25
Its not just people who stack shelves or flip burgers its 99% of the working population. The fact that it doesn't happen in football doesn't make it right.
The likes of Mourinho, Scolari, SAF, Wenger etc are all amongst the top paid employees in their clubs - the few players that earn more than them are the "global superstars" and the last time we looked we didn't have any of them
I?m perfectly in touch with reality thanks - I just chose not to accept your reality. Do you really not understand that there are perfectly acceptable views that don't match your own?
FFS GROW UP!
19 Posted 16/10/2008 at 17:00:13
Most of us realise that Fellaini was a last minute panic buy in an attempt to shut us up. It already looks ill-judged with Moyes's public statement that he don?t run about enough (send for AJ!).
If he only had £15M or so, he should have lowered his sights and gone for the likes of Bullard, Sidwell and Doyle ?and I don?t mean at 23:55 on 30th August.
Just don?t rate the fellow!
20 Posted 16/10/2008 at 17:10:47
If Moyes is the kind of manager whose abilities demand he be paid similar wages to Englad Internationals, why haven't any other clubs either at home or abroad come sniffing about for his services? Not even the likes of Newcastle or Spurs where interested in him. Just about says it all really.
21 Posted 16/10/2008 at 17:23:43
You made the point that is was crazy for the Manager to be paid more than the players ? I don't agree.
You say the salary is crazy ? I don't agree. The £60k puts him in the top 5-8 managers for pay which is where his results deserve to put him.
You say what happens if Yak score 35 goals? We?ll be in the champions league so a payrise will be easy and Moyes salary will have been justified. (Of course we wouldn't actually have to give Yak a payrise as he?d be off to a bigger club if he was that good)
You assume Mags/Spurs weren't interested in Moyes ? where's the evidence? How do you know it wasn't the other way around?
On a separate matter, should Moyes have been given a new contract at that level? ? I?m ambivalent veering to probably not.
What am I on? A bit of logic and balance ? I don't expect you to understand either of those concepts.
22 Posted 16/10/2008 at 17:31:17
Yes, I think he?s earnt another couple of seasons, including this one. Once we start to drop off, because whatever people want to say, until the end of last season we were still improving, then revise the situation. If that makes me an apologist then fair enough.
23 Posted 16/10/2008 at 17:21:13
24 Posted 16/10/2008 at 17:39:16
The pro-Moyes Evertonians point out that DM has moved us away from the dark days of Walter Smith. Well, dark days they might have been but Walter really didn?t have any money to spend. In comparison, DM has spent a king's ransom and in my view the football is no better.
Walter Smith is a proven winner; David Moyes isn?t. But, as I said earlier, we?re stuck with him. It also confirms my opinion that Bill Kenwright will never sell Everton. Quite honestly, Everton are a much less attractive target for an investor than they were a few days ago.
25 Posted 16/10/2008 at 17:53:25
26 Posted 16/10/2008 at 17:58:51
Moyes deserves to be the highest paid individual at the club because he is the only one with the drive and determination and passion to move us on. You and some of the regular contributors to TW have really lost all sense of perspective, I feel like reacting to some of your rubbish posts every day and find myself biting my tongue. Wake up and smell something besides your own feet!!!!
27 Posted 16/10/2008 at 18:12:38
Ah, the sound of the nail hitting the head.
How difficult is this to understand? Given the relative resources of the Sky Four and EFC, Moyes has quite clearly done a great job at the club, slowly but surely improving the squad and the style of play as time has gone on. Sure, we haven?t won anything under DM but it only takes a quick glance at the spending of the Sky Four to work out why that is.
Moyes has taken us to the very edge of being competitive with the Champions League Cartel (remember those articles in the Telegraph, Indie etc last season as we sat above LFC in the table discussing how possible it might be for Everton to gatecrash the megabuck party?) on a relative shoestring.
Sure, Moyes ummed and ahhed about the new contract but then, quite frankly, it could be argued that the club needed him more than he needed the club at that point, as difficult as that may be for the fans to swallow. His ambition is admirable and actually reassuring. He wanted assurances that he would be given a chance to take Everton to where he wanted.
And what?s wrong with that, I have to ask?
28 Posted 16/10/2008 at 19:03:20
What I am saying, whether you agree with it or not, is that today's modern player wants the earth and then some. If a player at a club thinks he should be the top earner what will he think if a jumped up PE Teacher like Moyes is out-earning him?
The next time Everton go in for a player who is any good, what will the players agent say???? Well, David Moyes is on £70k a week so that's the starting point for our negotiations. Then the players already at the club will think, "Hang on a minute, I want blah blah because blah blah is getting it......" Do you get it now or is that to hard for you to grasp???
29 Posted 16/10/2008 at 19:13:45
You say Walter Smith is a proven winner?? Yes he got a lot of Scottish titles (two-horse race) but other than that? He has a rather dour and defensive outlook/mindset and I wouldn’t say he’d be any better with the same team than Moyes in a big-game scenario. Look how his Rangers were hardly at the races for the UEFA Cup final!
Do you not remember some of the poor results (0-3 at home v Tranmere, always losing to Ipswich are quick examples) we had under Smith and also the whole 6/7 defenders in the starting line-up etc. And what about all the past-it players he kept signing (Gazza, Ginola et al)? Doesn’t strike me as that much of a winner really.
Moyes was an improvement on Smith, no doubt.
30 Posted 16/10/2008 at 20:44:07
31 Posted 16/10/2008 at 21:50:55
I have no idea what any other manager is on to even compare. Is Martin O?Neil on this kind of cash? Is he the clubs top earner?
The only thing this can guarentee for me is that Moyes will not live up to his "price tag" and every mistake he makes is much more "costly".
It will also form the cornerstone of every anti-Moyes argument ? and rightly so. If managers are to be paid like players, they will face the same criticism!!
32 Posted 16/10/2008 at 22:18:31
So you are another Moyes knocker!!! Can you remember the dull days of Walter Smith, Mike Walker, Kendall's third spell, Harvey, Lee, Bingham. Well I can and Moyes has done more for this club than many before him. Over the last few years I have once again got used to seeing us winning most of our games at Goodison and more than our fair share of away fixtures. I am not saying it is perfect yet, but god much improved...
33 Posted 17/10/2008 at 00:34:58
You must be on some form of medication.
34 Posted 17/10/2008 at 03:29:40
Enough of the anti-Moyes shit, please. He?s signed... now let?s get behind the club.
35 Posted 17/10/2008 at 07:57:14
In the nineties Walter Smith took a Rangers team a long way in the Champions League playing attractive exciting football. He was able to do so because he had money to spend and spent it well (eg Brian Laudrup). At Everton he had no money, signed over-the-hill players and, out of necessity, played dour defensive football.
David Moyes has had, in comparison to Smith, spent a fortune yet we still play, quite often, dour defensive football. Smith is derided, Moyes is a hero. The truth is that both are pretty average but the one we have now is bleeding us dry.
36 Posted 17/10/2008 at 08:44:49
ps: I love England and Walcott so much.
37 Posted 17/10/2008 at 08:52:34
38 Posted 17/10/2008 at 08:54:42
"Do you get it now or is it that hard to grasp?"
Your arrogance really does know no bounds. I do "get" your point (such as it is) as you generally only have one point (which you labour constantly with hyperbole and insults - have you ever learnt how to communicate without being a playground bully?).
Whilst I understand your point, I disagree totally with it (can you comprehend that?).
If a player is so desperate to be the number one earner at the club that they will throw their toys out of the pram, either we will pay it if they are worth it or (more likely) they either arent the type of player that we want at the club or are more likely to go the City, Mags, Hammers or whoever will pay the most.
Again, I?m not arguing the point of what Moyes is or isn't worth, just stating as a business model that I think it is right that the Manager is the highest paid employee and that players who can't live with that shouldn't be signed.
39 Posted 17/10/2008 at 09:19:11
40 Posted 17/10/2008 at 09:29:42
Mr Kenwright says to Mr Moyes "We have the new contract all written up for you to sign, doubled your wages over next 5 years"
Mr Moyes: "Great, where do I sign and how much will I be getting for players?"
Mr Kenwright: "Ah well, that's the situation, we have used all the money we had, to pay for your new contract"
Mr Moyes: "So I?ll have to continue with what I?ve got? OK it will be a struggle, but we can manage with the current staff til January."
Mr Kenwright: "Well, Dave, actually you will need to sell Johnson, that is paying for the contract along with the McFadden cash, not get Fernandes on loan and no contract extension for Carsley."
Mr Moyes: "Well, you can stick the contract, plenty of other clubs are after me."
Wyness: "Oh really, then fuck off then!"
Wyness then exits the room never to return.
Skip forward 2 months. £30 million loan taken out, Fellaini signed last minute, no offers for Moyes apart from Everton's and contract eventually gets signed. Hence doom and gloom at start of season with Moyes basically telling everyone that it's not his fault and we are not ready to play Premier League football!
One month later, wrong end of table out of two cups first time of asking.
41 Posted 17/10/2008 at 10:20:14
42 Posted 17/10/2008 at 10:39:10
43 Posted 17/10/2008 at 09:31:44
Also, for all the bleating from the apologists, telling us to give him time? The man has had no money? The grass is the wrong colour, or any other lame excuse you want to trot out for the utter total boring predictable garbage we are watching.
Then I am making demands. I demand for that money a top 5 finish. Top 5 or piss off. I am not listening anymore to excuse-mongers telling me Moyes is the best we can do. He isn?t for that money. FACT!
No excuses, top 5 or piss off.
44 Posted 17/10/2008 at 10:52:08
I?m an England fan through and through - but when did this TW thread from Richard become an England one, or a Walcott one? We are talking about Everton and Moyes. Start a new article if you want to discuss the national team and I?ll happily chat all day about them.
What I think was crass, was you having a go at Sean about silly remarks, after you put such a prissy PS on an earlier post. Let?s move on ? unless you want to advise us all of your other loves in your life ? yawn!
45 Posted 17/10/2008 at 11:28:15
PS please bore somebody else
46 Posted 17/10/2008 at 12:26:49
The club lost focus for so many reasons and responsibility for that rests with the manager, the chairman and yes the players too. When (if) a new owner comes in (as I have said before) the BK DM partnership will end as both will go. Mark Hughes must be looking over his shoulder every day waiting for the axe to fall, hopefully he will make it to the end of the season but I doubt if he will be there next year. Same for Moyes and I would suspect there is a water-tight clause in his contract should the board or new owner want a change.
I like Moyes for what he did but in truth we are paying the price for bad decisions on and off the pitch. Some of them his. Perhaps the bullet should have been bitten but it was never going to happen whilst BK sat in the chair.
47 Posted 17/10/2008 at 12:38:35
48 Posted 17/10/2008 at 14:10:19
PS I love Theo Walcott
49 Posted 16/10/2008 at 20:14:28
Now, considering the Marshes of the world think he's awful, we were never gonna get another manager who has won awards like that. I for one am glad Moyes has signed a new contract.. as we were never ever gonna get someone better anyway.. even though I admit there have been a lot of serious, SERIOUS mistakes this season so far!
50 Posted 17/10/2008 at 15:22:45
51 Posted 17/10/2008 at 16:37:03
Kepp your opinions to yourself.
52 Posted 17/10/2008 at 17:20:10
53 Posted 17/10/2008 at 17:58:50
Still laughing here.
54 Posted 17/10/2008 at 18:04:51
Sorry, but being randomly dropped from a womb to a land-mass that I did not choose and that took no thought or skill on my part, does not make my chest heave with patriotic pride.
Nor is it enough to make me watch ’Stevie G Laaaar’ without thinking "fail...fail...fail..."
But...that’s just me.
55 Posted 17/10/2008 at 19:27:53
PS I love Walcott
56 Posted 17/10/2008 at 21:53:35