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The People's Snub

By Tony Marsh :  03/11/2008 :  Comments (113) :
After looking at all the empty seats in the main stand at the recent derby game and the poor attendance at the Man Utd game at Goodison Park, was Saturday's abysmal 31,000 gate to be expected? Is the credit crunch taking its toll or have the masses seen enough of David Moyes and his shite footy teams?

If you attended the Greybok last Wednesday night, you would have every right to think about jacking it all in. As an advert for the Premier League the game at Bolton was an absolute disgrace. Ok, we nicked a late winner and I was jumping around like a Kangaroo that has just stood on a drawing pin when the goal went in but boy was that some kind of shite football match...

Saturday's horrible performance was once again overlooked by many because once again we played a get out of jail card in the last few minutes and Saha scored the winner when in all reality we should of been dead and buried. Once again, more Polyfilla in the cracks before the wallpaper goes over it.

Now I know there will be a deluge of posts all with the same theme, ie Six points and no goals conceded ? what more do you want... but that doesn't tell the whole story does it? We could so easily have lost both of those games and found ourselves marooned in the bottom three on nine points. That's how close it was.

The most shocking thing about it all is that the same players, who gave the Mancs the run-around playing exciting attacking football two weeks ago, once again returned to hoofing it and playing like they belonged on a local park on a Sunday morning.

Why is this so? Who is the mastermind behind it all? Was the second half against the Mancs a blip and normal service has been resumed? Whatever the answer is, some of the natives are starting to get restless, voting with their feet and who can blame them?

The usual suspects will come out and defend the utter crap we are served up with the same worn out tired defence they love to use but facts are facts and attendances are on the decline. About 6,000 down to be exact and that's a lot of our average, isn't it?

Either Moyes wises up (HA HA HA) or, like I said a few weeks ago, numbers will continue to drop off as watching Everton these days is as much fun as watching Gary Glitter in concert.

I know people will point to money again but that's not the issue here. Being able to pass a ball costs fuck all. We all know football is a buisness these days but do you know what it's an entertainment buisness and Evertonians are not being entertained. Full stop.

I honestly believe, hand on heart, that Everton are the worst team in the Premier League to watch ? and it's getting worse not better. Moyes is just as clueless now as he has always been when it comes to playing an attacking style of football. Saturday's 4-5-1 at home to poxy Fulham only confirms my fears. So many basic managerial mistakes were made by Moyes on Saturday, it's hard to know where to start... but lets try.

4-5-1 at home to a team like Fulham is an insult to paying supporters. Fulham have never won at Goodison Park in the Premier League, yet we throw up the barricades and let them get a foothold in the game by leaving Yakubu isolated as usual.

Cahill starting and then playing a full 90 minutes was another mistake as he is nowhere near fit and you could tell after 40 minutes. Playing Cahill also meant that the 4-5-1 system had to be employed. Poor tactical decision by the manager.

The substitutions.... Pathetic! Why take off Fellaini when he has been our most effective player recently? What was Moyes thinking at the time?

"I know what I will do here; bring the big fella off as he looks like he could do with a hair cut. He might just score another winner but let's chuck on Saha the goal machine. Now I know the last time Louis scored a goal there was a lace through the ball but it just might work..." Luckily enough it did but what was the thinking behind it?

Yakubu. Once again, the Premier League's most prolific goal scorer is reduced to a shell by Moyes and his sterile tactics and so once again he gets pulled off ? WHY? Yakubu is the only natural goalscorer at the club and should remain on the pitch at all times. Fuck all this nonsense about running down the channels all day. Give the Yak the ammo and he will score goals. Unless of course the striker's curse has now hit him as it did Beattie, Aj and all the rest who suffered under DM's claustrophobic approach.

Add to the list James Vaughan's 6 minutes on the field, Rodwell's continued exclusion, and you have to wonder what the fuck is going on.

In the end, we had the farcical situation of finishing the game with four strikers on the pitch when all it needed was to start with two. Cahill should've been given the last 30 minutes if it wasn't working but the whole set-up reeks to high heaven. David Moyes is little more than an amateur when it comes to tactics and we have been very lucky this past week thanks to the fixture list. Any decent sides would've twatted us playing the way we do.

On a plus note, Phil Neville has been excellent recently playing in his natural position at right back and it's no coincidence that the goals have stopped going in since then. How long have we been saying this for? Please, no more Hibbert.

So make your own minds up as to why so many are starting to stay away. The pubs and clubs in Liverpool are jam packed every night and so are the shops. No credit crunch here so it can't be the money.

Let's just say it has every thing to do with a Ginger Scotsman his £65k a week wages and squad of players who look like they want to be else where..... .Just like some of the fans.

Reader Comments

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Michael Kenrick
1   Posted 04/11/2008 at 03:42:58

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You?re well off form this week, Tony... 6,000??? More like 1,465.

That?s the difference between this season?s Fulham attendance (31,278) and last season?s (32,743). A revolt? That?s just noise. Do the maths, Tony... kind makes ya look like a bit of a fool to be honest.

And then the subs. Arguably they changed the game. Saha scored the winner. What more could you want from a sub?

You know, you really don?t need to post after every game. I know some people want you to, but you?ve provided nothing here. I?d really advise against it.

Mike McLean
2   Posted 04/11/2008 at 05:26:47

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Perhaps Tony has seen a pattern emerging over the last four home games. We failed to sell out the derby or Utd, not a great crowd against Newcastle, and then Fulham.

The one thing that has struck me with supporters in my own age group has been the sense of apathy ... the abysmal summer, the ridiculous antics and lies over the contract and then the gutless football have seen a number of people simply fall out of love with the club as it is presently run.

Add to that the credit crunch which, obviously, has a real impact but also provides a handy excuse for ending the match going habit and there you have it!

Things will, naturally, improve enormously when we erect the Kirkby Biscuit Tin.
Bob Turner
3   Posted 04/11/2008 at 05:47:24

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I really don’t think that a 4-5-1 with TIm Cahill playing is really a proper 4-5-1 - I don’t remember seeing him track back deep inside our half to do any real defensive work.

And looking at the other 4 midfielders, you’ve got 4 players who don’t exactly strike me as Lee Carselt wannabes who are happy to sit back and do their share of defensive chores.

Moyes is often castigated for his lack of effective substitutions, but when one of them actually scores, he’s lucky... hmmmm.

The reason why we scored is because, finally, someone got a quality ball in the box (I think it’s called creating a chance - not been many recently) and one of our 4 (yes, 4, count ’em! Defensive?? Not our Davey!) strikers duly slotted.

The lack of a quality final ball was the reason we struggled on Saturday, which comes from lack of form (how many times where we in a really good position, only to mess up the final ball??) rather than poor tactics.

But then, form is down to the players, not the manager, so you wouldn’t be able to have (another!) go at Moyes, would you?
James Wilheim
4   Posted 04/11/2008 at 05:56:53

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Times have been hard in a lot of ways this previous few months, particularly at Everton FC. I think we are just seeing the result of a painful summer, with Moyes's delayed contract and lack of signings. Throw in a poor start to the season and there really isn?t anything to get excited about.

The fact is though Everton have won the previous two games keeping a clean sheet, Fellaini is beginning to look like a top player and with the general feeling of football wins and with a few players due to start performing (namely Arteta, Lescott & Yakubu) things will start getting exciting again indeed. Throw in a new American President and it is all good. Our attendances will pick up again.

Dave Wilson
5   Posted 04/11/2008 at 06:12:31

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You're wrong. Tony is drawing attention to a developing trend, one that has a number of us worried, to compare the attendance at Saturday's game with the corresponding fixture last year is missing the point.
Goodison Park has not been sold out once this season, despite the fact that we?ve played the Mancs and RS. Unless the entertaiment value goes up several notches, or we go on a really exciting winning run, then I fully expect Marshy?s claim of a 6,000 fall on last year's average to be too close for comfort. I?d be surprised if our average attendance got much higher than 32,000 this season.
John Andrews
6   Posted 04/11/2008 at 07:00:57

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If Fellaini is starting to look like a top player, why was he dragged off on Saturday?
Jay Campbell
7   Posted 04/11/2008 at 07:10:14

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Let?s be honest, for what you are paying, what is being dished out is certainly not value for money is it?

What is there to get exciited about nowadays? I think the standard of football has dropped badly over the last few years across the world never mind in the Premier League. The skill factor has been replaced by the run all day and pressure tactics. Crap!!! half of these galutes nowadays couldn?t trap a bag of cement.
Dominic Duerden
8   Posted 04/11/2008 at 07:51:31

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100% agree with your post, wise words.

Our back four is getting us through this single handedly.

Playing Yakubu up front on his own is a shocking tactic. It knackers him up and Arteta and Piennar, as when they look forwards there is NO ONE to pass to.
Wali Tomos
9   Posted 04/11/2008 at 08:20:20

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From my seat it looked to me that Tim Cahill was playing up front with the Yak most of the time and spent a lot of the time closing down their back four as well as challenging for Howard’s long kicks. But who am I to argue with TM?
Kevin Sparke
10   Posted 04/11/2008 at 08:19:25

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Half-baked self-promoting hyperbole ? as usual. (What you might call hyper bollocks.)

It was clear to anyone with half a football brain that it was only 4-5-1 on paper. Cahill was playing just off Yak?s shoulder for the majority of the game. Fellaini was marauding around the front third of the field as it allowed him to have a free role just behind the front two.

If you study Yak?s career you?ll see he has always scored in spurts? 8 games 9 goals and then nothing for two months? 14 games 16 goals and then nothing for three months. He?s going through one of his lean periods. It will end soon.

The entertainment was poor ? but at least we tried to play it along the floor. The defence seems to be settling down again.

What I can't forgive Moyes and Kenwright for is the fact that we?ve been crying out for a creative, tackling bustling midfield general, who can find the killer through ball, for over five years. That is the missing link ? we get that player and all else will fall into place.

Fellaini, does not seem to be the answer? not yet anyway. However, he is in a different class than the rest of the midfield and will be very good indeed in time? We need some class in the midlle now.

I can?t see us getting that in January.
Kirk McArdle
11   Posted 04/11/2008 at 08:36:43

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The two wide men need to support the Yak more. Arteta, Pienaar or even Osman when he plays there need to be higher up the pitch to take some pressure off of Yakubu. Strong as he is, it’s 1 bloke against 4 all the time. If I was Yakubu with the goalscoring record he has dissolutionment would be setting in. No support from anyone. And has anyone noticed who obvious our play is? Either hoofball or from wide in Arteta or Peinaar. Never anything through the middle from where the Yak can run onto a ball. When was the last time a through ball or a weighted pass over the top was played? Time to stop playing Arteta on the wings and put him in the middle next to Big Fella(ini) and let his passing and creativity shine. ’Cause he can’t cross for shite nowadays!!!
Lori Fekete
12   Posted 04/11/2008 at 08:27:49

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Tony, I agree that we are playing some shite football and the main culprits are Yobo and Lescott. Even, with options in midfield, they decide to aimlessly pump it to the general direction of the Yak. It's so frustrating to watch us give position away so easily. We can play some nice stuff when we bother. Hopefully it was down to lack of confidence and now we?ve limped to a couple of 1-0s we can start the season properly.

I disagree that the credit crunch has nothing to do with lack of attendances, because I, like most people I know, am struggling and don?t have any cash at the minute. Also, the summer was shite, with the Board managing to destroy all the hope and confidence built up by a great season last year.
Trevor Lynes
13   Posted 04/11/2008 at 08:40:33

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Totally 100% agree with the article and I already said that EFC are churning out the worst football in the league!! Our passing is very slow and players do not want the ball... Arteta and Pienaar are also suffering from this malady. Cahill is not worth his place just yet and Baines should be playing on the left side of midfield IN FRONT of Lescott until Lescott gets his confidence back. Lescott just does not have the pace to get up the left and then be back in time to defend adequately. Let's face it, he is no Clichy!!

We have been lucky in our last two games and the only match we showed real spirit and ability was in the 2nd half against Man Utd. We need to realise that the game is played over 90 minutes and we should be competing for the whole game. We are dreadful at home because we are expected to take the initiative, whereas away from home we can sit back and snatch results.

Arteta is looking distinctly unhappy lately and does not seem to be enjoying his game. Luckily Jagielka and Neville are both playing well so the defence is carrying us. I reckon the article is spot on and instead of being critical of it, the readers should think about what is written as it is from a FAN who wants the team to play well and make us all proud.... Let's get some entertainment into our game.

Craig Walsh
14   Posted 04/11/2008 at 09:13:16

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I think we are in a catch 22 situation at the moment as regards to the team playing well and the crowds being down. The atmosphere at Goodison has been shite this season; not a lot to shout about, which has caused the team to suffer with confidence especially playing at home. The Goodison crowd could at least guarantee a good few goals over the season but I feel we are not getting behind the boys as well as we could do ? a couple of shouts of "If you know your history" doesn?t strike fear into the opposing teams!

Seriously we all saw what that tackle against the Mancs from Neville did, the atmosphere became electric and the boys could sense that and grew in confidence and we saw probably the best 35-40 mins of football we have seen all season. So Tony I agree with certain parts of your article, but I think we have all got a part to play to install confidence in the boys by getting behind them and in turn may boost attendances.

John Cats
15   Posted 04/11/2008 at 09:31:21

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Interesting articles, and correct on a number of points. One thing that I would pick up on is the substitution of Fellaini. In hindsight, Moyes can rightly claim that it paid off, given that Saha popped up to score the winning goal. But here is my concern, before that Fellaini seemed to be doing well enough to stay on the pitch. As he’s proved over the last few games, he is a goal threat. So why the hell was he removed from play? Moyes doesn’t have a crystal ball that tells him how events are to unfold. This time he was lucky, but next time he won’t be.

Oh FFS, just bring in Allardyce.
Anthony O'Sullivan
16   Posted 04/11/2008 at 09:41:47

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Thats brilliant only Tony could critises the manager for making a match winning substitution!

Its a shame because people are concerned about the club but having people like Marsh as your mouth piece removes all credibility/sense/logic from the arguement.
Ciarán McGlone
17   Posted 04/11/2008 at 10:00:13

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Whether Cahill started in a 4-5-1 or a 4-4-2 is irrelevant. The fact is that he ended up as a midfielder in a 4-4-2 and later on in a 4-3-3 represents absolutely attrocious awareness of Cahill?s capabilites by Moyes.

Add to that the fact that Baines has been stiffed by Moyes's love-in with Jags and Lescott ? and the fact that Osman (who seemed to be playing a defensive midfield role!!!) and Cahill remained on the pitch while the best player was substituted ? and you have nothing but a collection of amatuer mistakes repeated ad-infinitum from a handsomely paid manager.

Complete and utter tripe.
Paul Tran
18   Posted 04/11/2008 at 10:15:16

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Anthony, you may not agree with the content and/or tone of Tony’s posts. That doesn’t justify you calling him ’the mouthpiece’ of those of us with concerns.

I’m still waiting to hear why after seven years of ’stability’ under a ’great young manager’, we have no apparent scouting system and an inability, or lack of willingness to pass the ball.

Last season we had a three month period where we passed the ball and played in the other team’s half of the pitch. We scored more goals, won more games and were often very good to watch.

Why has this stopped? That’s all I want to know
EJ Ruane
19   Posted 04/11/2008 at 09:55:25

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Erm.... who exactly do you mean when you say ?your? mouth-piece?

Tony Marsh is his own mouth-piece, as I am mine and you are yours.

Why not simply address your comments/criticism directly to Tony?

As for Ena Sharples-like comments such as ?People like Marsh...? - you think they ADD credibility/sense/logic.

Next thing you?ll be telling us "..AND ?ees no better than ?ee should be" (while winking at a Minnie Caldwell look-a-like, folding your arms and supping a Mackies)

We?ll make our own minds up thank you (sniffs!)
Gavin Davies
20   Posted 04/11/2008 at 10:51:54

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I?ve been a season ticket holder every season since 1983, travelled the country and Europe. But this season I?m not bothering. Why? Because it?s a money thing. I find it hard to admire or follow players on crazy money when they are really just mediorce footballers. Nothing against any of them personally how can you justify some of the wages these lads are on? It?s a disgrace.

Furthermore, would the "People's Club" please explain how they justify that name? We are all just treated as faceless feckers but our attention is held by the bright lights of club marketing and Sky TV. My relationship with Everton over the past few years has been one of just paying out stacks of money which by one way or another they have badgering me for. £25 to watch Fulham? £3.50 a pint? £10 to park? £40 for a shirt? Where will I be financially when my kids want to go?

The game needs to implode, the monopoly to stop. Bring back footy and Everton to the real fans not these idiots who spend a fortune week-in, week-out in the club shop.

Tony Marsh
21   Posted 04/11/2008 at 10:47:17

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Micheal last seasons attendance against Fulham has nothing to do with the drop in our average this season and you know it. Mess about with the stats all you want but it can't hide the fact that fans are getting fed up with this shit.

If some fans are lucky enough to be in a position where money inst an issue when deciding on going to games then good luck to them. I dont find it difficult to pay for matches but some fans do. Some suppoerters have decisions to make each week.

Shall I take my lad the game have a pint a pie and a programme, a taxi home and the cost of two tickets probably cost me best part of £100 or should I go down the boozer and watch it on the Arab channel spend a tenner and buy the lad a game for his PSP and take the missus for a Chinese later on tonight cost about £100 type decisions.

If fans are continually fed the dross we serve up these decisions will be come more and more easy to make as the months/years go by then what?

As for the posts, don't worry about them; if they are not welcome I won't bother any more.
Richard Dodd
22   Posted 04/11/2008 at 11:04:06

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Recent results have well justified the method of getting them. I have no doubts that Everton have now turned the corner and Davey can now concentrate on driving us back towards the top of the league. If that means employing a system which seems to offend TM so be it but ?its results what count? and the crowds will return to post ?House Full? as long as we keep winning. Always been that way!
Paul Mosses
23   Posted 04/11/2008 at 11:04:04

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Tony, you?ve just sort of answered your own questions there with regards the drop in attendances.

Why pay the best part of £100 for a shit kick off time against a nothing club when you can watch it for niche. I couldnt give a spare ticket away for Saturday, no-one was interested. Funnily enough, no-one said "I?m not going because Moyes?s teams play shite football", they just couldnt be arsed getting out of bed and travelling the game in freezing weather when they could watch it at home.

I?ve asked this questions many times before... apart from Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and at times Liverpool, what teams actually play good football?? Did you watch the Bolton - City game on Sunday? Terrible game, City were no better than we were, couldn't string two passes together, and got beat.

Villa last night, the much praised villa, they were crap, even after spending a shit load of money in the summer.
Terry Holland
24   Posted 04/11/2008 at 11:18:27

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Tony Marsh Said

"As for the posts don't worry about them if they are not welcome I wont bother any more."

Cheers Tony that would be sound, Lad!!
Dave Griffin
25   Posted 04/11/2008 at 11:48:12

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Live TV, crap opposition, less than 100 visiting fans. 31,000 plus wasn?t a bad attendance at all in the circumstances.
Chrissy Corn
26   Posted 04/11/2008 at 11:55:42

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Tony, keep them coming lad. You’re just touching a raw nerve. The truth hurts!
Terry Smith
27   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:00:28

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The empty seats are probably because the glory hunters who only go when we are doing well have jacked it in due to the shit that is being served up at the moment. In my own opinion, I just think the whole squad has lost the team spirit that we have had in the past year or two, ie they were fighting for each other etc etc. Plus I agree that the Yak is not doing well this season and maybe dropping him may give him the kick up the arse he needs. It worked last year and hopefully it will work again. But let's not forget that the Yak's best football is on the floor and ball to feet. He is getting hoof balls from the off.
Martin Barron
28   Posted 04/11/2008 at 11:43:38

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Please do keep posting Tony ? I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I went to the first three home games of the season ? like a lot of fans I travelled over from Ireland, hotel stay, food, match tickets etc. During the three games (Blackburn, Portsmouth and Liverpool), I spent a lot of the time just sitting there dumbfounded with the performances. Blackburn: we were totally outplayed and should have lost by 5. Portsmouth: awful... and then Liverpool: the big one. Besides not one shot on goal, there was no energy or passion on show ? enough is enough.

Will I be back over this season? Questionable ? definitely not if the dross continues. I want to see my team play football with passion. I can put up with mediocre results but not the awful displays we have had to endure so far this season (2nd half Man Utd excepted).

Kevin Sparke
29   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:06:12

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Marsh writes

?Yakubu. Once again, the Premier League’s most prolific goal scorer is reduced to a shell by Moyes and his sterile tactics and so once again he gets pulled off?Unless of course the striker’s curse has now hit him as it did Beattie, Aj and all the rest who suffered under DM’s claustrophobic approach?.

Of course the facts suggest a very different story: Yak?s record:

Season 2003-4 Portsmouth 43 appearances 19 Goals

Season 2004-5 Portsmouth 35 appearances 17 Goals

Season 2005-06 M?bro 56 appearances 19 Goals

Season 2006 -07 M?bro 45 appearances 16 Goals

Season 2007 -08 Everton 39 appearances 21 Goals

Don?t let the facts blind you to your hate of Moyes Tony
Duncan McDine
30   Posted 04/11/2008 at 11:33:22

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Tony - The game should?ve been dead and buried at half time, it was a defo penalty, the big fella hit the post with a good effort & we controlled the game. They had a couple of goal mouth scrambles and that was it.

Their one propper chance (Gera) was due to Lescott waiting for someone else to close down the cross. The kind of defending that gets punished every time against a good team. That one thing deserved criticism, little else did.

Well done to Moyes for his subs & getting 7 points from the last 3 games. Performances will get better with confidence, for now though I want results.

To those who are still moaning and whining about the ?ugly football? - go and follow Spurs or Newcastle... that?s what you deserve. Another win at West Ham is all I want.
Ian Hollingworth
31   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:00:44

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I have been waiting for this conspiracy theory to develop. I have for some time thought that Tony Marsh was a fictional character used by ToffeeWeb to start a debate. Now I fear they have grown tired of the monster they created and need to kill the character off. Hence Michael suggests TM stops posting, TM duly obliges by pretending to throw the toys out of the pram. Very clever TW.
Seriously though I look forward to Tony's posts, don?t always agree entirely but a lot of what he posts is spot on and how many of us log on and look for his posts first?
Robbie Muldoon
32   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:04:34

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When Saha scored I was screaming the house down as I watched the match live on the internet.

I had the money to go the match, just, but was unwilling to skin myself just to have the gut wrenching feeling I get when I see us start with one upfront at home and to be pulling my hair out when Moyes makes a baffling sub, and to fume when once again he drags the Yak off.

Because if these things happen and Fulham take the points it would ruin my fucking day.

So I?d rather stay at home and save up my money whilst the same old tricks are played out by Moyes (whoa let?s swap Pienaar and Arteta over, that will bamboozle them ha ha). Until Moyes changes the way we play, it will be easier for me to decide to save my money and watch it from the armchair.
Damien Kennedy
33   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:19:30

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Dont encourage him , the man from mars is an idiot ..................................
Steve Jones
34   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:05:32

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Got to agree with Tony, I was appalled to see we went with 1 striker at home v Fulham. As Ciaran says, it doesn?t matter which way people try and label the formation it was negative with 5 midfielders. At left-back, Baines should be in there ? he works well with Pienaar and actually gets decent crosses in to teammates. Lescott either plays centre back or if not good enough is benched.

Terry, the last thing the Yak needs is dropping, he needs a strike partner for a full 90 mins and he needs to be left to do what he does best score goals. He?s said himself he wants to play with a fellow striker not in a 4-5-1.

As many others have mentioned, Moyes seems to ruin strikers, Yak should be left to stay as high up the pitch as possible cos that?s where the opposition's goal is. He shouldn?t be outside our box where he either loses it and we concede or having to run 3/4 of the pitch to get near the opposition's goal.

Time to start giving the opposition something to worry about cos we have the quality to do it. Moyes has brought in a lot of good players but seems to waste them with his formations, it's clear a lot of them are unhappy with the way we play and so are the majority of fans cos, more often than not it?s awful to watch and desperate. We play as if we finished 5 from bottom last season and we are scared of everyone.
Martin Hughes
35   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:23:34

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People don't want to be wasting money especially in the current economice crisis, job lossess, rising unemployent, credit crisis, energy bilss going up.

Come on Tony wake up and smell the coffee son, Watching football is a luxury and not a nescessity!
Dave Wilson
36   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:07:37

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A rare gift you have there lad.

Not for the first time one of your post brightens an otherwise shite day.

Funny stuff!
Damian Wilde
37   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:12:25

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We were terrible against Bolton and it was a dreadful game. We weren?t much better agaisnt Fulham. I thought first half we had some nice build up play, but didn?t create that many clear cut chances. The attendance was poor, it didn?t help with Fulham only bringing 200 fans, how bad is that??!! We?d probably take 4-5000 to their place!

"We could so easily have lost both of those games and found ourselves marooned in the bottom three on nine points" - ye, but we didn?t, that fucking simple enough for you? Liverpool have scored so many late winners ? if they hadn?t, they might be 16th in the league, did you know that? If so and so hadn?t done this...

Why do people bang on about 4-5-1 being negative? Okay you only have one out and out striker, but you have an attacking midfielder, who?s virtually playing up front anyway, alongside 4 very attack-minded midfielders. You could have a 4-4-2, but not have midfielders who are as attack-minded and that would not be as attack-minded as our 4-5-1.

The Yak? He was shite. I criticise Moyes for not pulling him off earlier. A while ago I didn?t mind his laziness as he scored goals, but now he doesn?t. It was plain for anyone to see that that lazy fucker was never going to score and Moyes waits 5 minutes from the end to take him off and bring Vaughan on, should have been done 25 minutes earlier. Moyes got away with it this time.

Finished with 4 strikers? Saha, Anichebe, Vaughan, who was the other one? I made it 3.

No credit crunch in Liverpool... What? you're some sort of economist now because you saw the local chippy full?

I will say that we have to improve though. The last few displays have not been great and better teams will punish us. About time we had some luck though, not often we get it!!

See everyone at West Ham. COYB.
Damian Wilde
38   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:12:25

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We were terrible against Bolton and it was a dreadful game. We weren?t much better agaisnt Fulham. I thought first half we had some nice build up play, but didn?t create that many clear cut chances. The attendance was poor, it didn?t help with Fulham only bringing 200 fans, how bad is that??!! We?d probably take 4-5000 to their place!

?We could so easily have lost both of those games and found ourselves marooned in the bottom three on nine points? - ye, but we didn?t, that fucking simple enough for you? Liverpool have scored so many late winners - if they hadn?t, they might be 16th in the league, did you know that? If so and so hadn?t done this...

Why do people bang on about 451 being negative? Okay you only have one out and out striker, but you have an attacking midfielder, who?s virtually playing up front anyway, alongside 4 very attack minded midfielders. You could have a 442, but not have midfielders who are as attack minded and that would not be as attack minded as our 451.

The Yak? He was shite. I criticise Moyes for not pulling him off earlier. A while ago I didn?t mind his laziness as he scored goals, but now he doesn?t. It was plain for anyone to see that that lazy fucker was never going to score and Moyes waits 5 minutes from the end to take him off and bring Vaughan on, should have been done 25 minutes earlier. Moyes got away with it this time.

Finished with 4 strikers? Saha, Anichebe, Vaughan, who was the other one? I made it 3.

No credit crunch in Liverpool, what some sort of economist now because you saw the local chippy full?

And for anyone who can?t bear to watch Everton because they are so bad, go and watch someone else then.

I will say that we have to improve though. The last few displays have not been great and better teams will punish us. About time we had some luch though, not often we get it!!

See everyone at West Ham. COYB.
Dave Charles
39   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:09:24

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Terry Smith. The Glory Hunters left years ago mate. We?re down to habitual attenders now, and when they stay away for whatever reason, it?s time to panic. As you say, the shit being served up must high up on the excuse board for not going anymore.
John Gorman
40   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:34:48

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Got to agree with Tony... Attendances are down, it doesn?t matter by 1 or 6,000, they are still down.

I cringed when I saw 4-5-1 vs Fulham. Another 90 minutes of crap, diabolical unentertaining hoofball. This is getting embarrassing. 3-5-2 is the way forward. Pip and Bainsy as attacking wing backs and the rest will allow change or Cahill.

Please, please play some football. COYB

Dawson Boyle
41   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:45:12

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Vitriol, horrendous knee-jerk reactions and and absolutely terrible pun to boot.

Classic Tony Marsh.

Well done sir, I salute you. Now please stop.
Ciarán McGlone
42   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:43:38

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Duncan McDine.

Go and support another team?

Grow up.
EJ Ruane
43   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:05:17

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Terry, I understand the ?kick up the arse? theory (re Yak) but it?s not guaranteed to work.

The reality is, the money a footballer like Yak earns, means he can, more-or-less, do as he pleases (which he knew when he ?missed his plane? after the African Nations)

Fact is, if you?re a ?Premier? League player, once you?ve signed a 3-4 year deal, for anything above £15,000 a week (nb: A WEEK!) you are set for life (obviously you would have to keep an eye on the amount you spend on Koh-I-Nor-sized earrings and/or £600-a-pop haircuts). Consequently the manager can go fuck himself.

Levy, the Spurs Chairman was all over the Sunday papers saying that Berbatov had basically decided to pack in playing for Spurs. Sure they could have stuck him in the Spurs stiffs but the finances just don?t (realistically) allow it.

Players call the shots these days and all that huffing and puffing we see managers do, to make us THINK they run things, is just that ? huffing and puffing.

Bring back the Cat!(terick)
John Cats
44   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:33:08

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Anthony O?Sullivan: You seem to miss an important point. Fellaini was one of the better players on the pitch, and probably one of our best bets to score a goal. For all you know, Fellaini might have knocked two in had he not been substituted. The fact that Saha scored a goal in no way relates to Fellaini not being there. It wasn?t a match winning substitution at all; that is, it wasn?t an ineffectual player being replaced by a superior man. It was a bizarre substitution, and Moyes continues to baffle me with his tactical vision.
Brian Waring
45   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:57:36

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If, as some have mentioned, that gates are down, because money is tight, then why do the Mancs and Redshite sell out every home game? It is down to one thing, shite predictable football.
Barry Sherlock
46   Posted 04/11/2008 at 12:51:20

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Number 1; who were the FOUR strikers we finished the game with???

Number 2; could the fact that the game was an early kick off have anything to do with the attendance (people in work) OR that it was live on Sky? People watching the pennies could sit in and watch it.

Number 3; Moyes makes tactical changes to change the course of the game and - it?s a fluke!!! He?s still a shite manager.

We are not playing well. But most importantly we are grinding out results. That is the most important thing at this point. West Brom have been playing some nice football..... where are they? Not SEVENTH that?s for sure.
Paul Mosses
47   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:05:05

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I must have been missing Fellaini doing all these wonderful things in the 2nd half. I thought he done quite well first half but for the first 15 of the second he barely touched the ball and was running in quick sand. I wasn't surprised at all when he went off, he was knackered and after all it was a midfielder for a striker so how people can perceive that as a negative I really don't know.

Moyes has made some bad substitutions in his time but I thought on Saturday he got them spot on (Pienaar was blowing bubbles and had give the ball away 5 times on the trot when he went off as well).
Paul Mosses
48   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:16:40

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Brian Waring - come on mate, that's the weakest argument I?ve ever heard.

Utd and Liverpool will ALWAYS sell out, due to the fact they have such large support.

If we had 15-20,000 daytrippers in the bank every single game, we?d sell out as well.
Duncan McDine
49   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:20:20

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Ciarán McGlone - Do you want us to win, or look pretty?

That’s all I was getting at.

Ask Chelsea fans if they preferred winning things with JM. They certainly played more attractive footy last season without ’the special one’ but ended up 2nd best.
Ciarán McGlone
50   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:20:14

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Getting substitutions right, means removing the right players as much as putting on the right players..

Moyes didn?t remove either Cahill or Osman, who were both utter crap, but instead took off a player who was playing considerably better.... therefore he didn?t get the substitutions right ? just because the luck went in our direction doesn?t change this fact.

He got it all wrong, from start to finish, yet again!
Tony Williams
51   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:32:04

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Oh My Rants! is back again after the dosage in his meds are back to normal after a slight blip last week.

"The usual suspects will come out and defend the utter crap we are served up with the same worn out tired defence"

And your usual disciples will stick with you through thick and thin and bemoan our present "lucky" streak and pander for the losses again to get back into calling for Moyes?s head.

Yes, Bolton was an ugly game and Fulham was up there with one of the worst games I have seen in a long while.... however, we are playing shit and this is when you grind out results and kick on from there.

"We could so easily have lost both of those games and found ourselves marooned in the bottom three on nine points. That?s how close it was." Yes but we didn?t and we are not and if my Aunt had bollocks she would be my Uncle, however, if I was to say that if only ManUre. The Redshite and Le Arse had played worse than they did we would be near the top, I would get laughed off this board.

It?s not pretty at the moment and it very rarely is but it is all of a sudden effective, that will have to do for now.
Ciarán McGlone
52   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:40:18

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You were getting at that point in a very strange way. Please don?t resort to telling Evertonians to go support another club. It undermines your argument.

And in answer to your question... pretty football (or good football) eventually gets you results, rubbish football eventually gets found out..

I think you?ll find Chelsea?s brand of football this season is far more attractive than last season?s... in fact Scholari was brough in with that very remit and brought the flair players of Boswinga and Deco. How you can suggest that they have not been playing pretty football is beyond me.
Duncan McDine
53   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:39:18

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Osman delivered the only top class cross of the match and we took all 3 points because of it.

I agree that Cahill and Osman were poor, but you just have to accept the fact that his cross found the head of a Moyes sub, and that won us the game ? it seems a lot of you are unhappy that he actually got it right for once!!!
James Marshall
54   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:36:28

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The only bit I agree with is that Neville is playing well at fullback ? apart from that I dont agree with a single word of this weeks Tony-a-gram.

David Moyes takes off player A and brings on player B, player B scores winner ? bad management?

7 points out of a possible 9 and we?re up to 7th place ? bad management?

Fulham have one of the best defences outside the top 4, if not THE best defence outside the top 4, Tony, so the system we played suited the team in front of us ? do you actually look further than the end of your nose when watching football?

Everton certainly do not play the worst football in the league, if that's your opinion I would suggest you don?t watch many games other than ours because there are plenty of teams that play way worse football than we do ? Fulham, Bolton, West Ham to name but 3.

Winning at Bolton is not to be sniffed at Tony, I?ll wager that across the season they won't lose many at home.
Paul Cooper
55   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:29:00

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I’ve generally not been a fan of Mr Marsh and his posts however you can’t help agree with his points on the gaffers tactics. We had a poor summer and the midfield which needed a real ball winner (Carsely style) and someone who can create chances never happened. The midfield is a mess we have too many similar type of players in the mix, no real protection of the back four and no creativity in the middle. I find myself thinking if Andy VDM is fit why not play him on the flank and put either Arteta or Pinear in the middle. Also whats happned to Castilo...? Either him or Rodwell should be in the middle with the big man.

Moyes won’t change it tho... we’ve been lucky with this run of easy games. 7th is defo a false position for us. When we play a decent team we are going to get creamed if things don’t change.
Baz Daly
56   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:43:57

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Apologies Tony, but I lost interest in your analysis precisely here:

"Once again, more Polyfilla in the cracks before the wallpaper goes over it. "

Analogies are not your thing...
Chris Keightley
57   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:39:24

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When things are tough and players are lacking confidence you take the result first, forget the performance that will come as the confidence of back to back wins picks up the team, West Ham on Saturday win that scruffy I don't care, and hold on to a top half position till Jan, then and only then should we judge the manager and his tactics.
Duncan McDine
58   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:44:41

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I haven’t mentioned Chelsea’s football this season because we’re 1/4 of the way into the season - therefore we can’t make any judgements about whether their more attractive play (since Mourinho left) is nearly as effective.

I’m all for Everton playing good football, but I’m confused as to why some of you are so pissed off when we win ugly.
John Waugh
59   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:51:45

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"Everton these days is as much fun as watching Gary Glitter in concert".

You obviously never saw Gary Glitter at his best. Much much much more entertaining than the drivel I had to sit through on Saturday.

May I suggest that a better analogy would be watching paint dry ? oh but that doesn?t cost a king's ransom to watch!
James Byrne
60   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:44:56

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TM, keep the posts coming mate; they are the only interesting debates we have on TW and everyone knows it.

Last night in the Newcastle game they suffered one of their worst crowd attendances for years; we are seeing the same trend at Goodison due to crap football, the cost and the current financial mood especially to the run up to xmas.

What has always pissed me off about Premiership clubs is their lack of "in touchness" with supporters! They don’t give a toss, including EFC.

During what is a difficult time anyway, why don’t they dramatically drop price tickets for shite games when attendance will obviously be low; more people at the ground means more people to buy food, drinks, programs and to contribute towards the atmosphere etc.
Clyde McPhat
61   Posted 04/11/2008 at 13:55:21

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Sometimes we only see what we want to see and we don?t look at the picture presented by the whole of the league. Fulham would have had an allocation of 3,000 tickets of which they used about a hundred. They other 2900 were unable to be used by anyone. As Mr Kenrick pointed out at the start of this thread, the actual matchday attendance was only 1600 down from a year ago, and I think the Fulham support last year was around 3-400. So, we were missing 1500 supporters from a year ago, and it was our third game in a week, and an early start and great weather. And the economy sucks.
Ollie Grange
62   Posted 03/11/2008 at 22:18:58

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All this bleating about Moyes not having a good record is a little one-eyed in my view. Based on net spend Moyes has delivered far more points than any other comparable manager in recent history bar 2. One of those is Mark Hughes at Blackburn and the other is Arsene Wenger at Arsenal.

I would take Moyes over Hughes because Moyes has built some solid foundations, predominantly with young british players, whereas Hughes has played the transfer market very well to bring in a constant rotation of good cheap foreigners. The Blackburn strategy isn't one that can last. And it hasn't. It worked long enough to get him a big money move to Man City though. Interesting that.

I don't think anyone can argue against Wenger having produced more with less, and I won't attempt to here, but I would say that the gulf isn't as cavernous as it might seem. What kicked off Arsenal arguably was the signing of Bergkamp and Platt, which was pre-Wenger. We could never have afforded or attracted either of those players. The London question is also a factor. Players will go there for less than market rate wages who wouldn't even consider us.

And finally Arsenal had a good side when Wenger took over. Some great defenders in aAdams, Bould, Dixon, Winterburn... some great midfielders like Merson and great strikers in Wright and Bergkamp.

Moyes inherited Gascoigne, Ginola, Gemill and the mighty Joe-Max Moore. We're now maybe a couple of players away from having a really good side. Probably only a winger with real pace and a quality replacement for Carsley. We should be cheered by hitting 7th without showing any sort of form, not subjecting ourselves to a constant stream of whinging and negativity. It's not the team or the football I find depressing these days, it's the fans.

David London
63   Posted 04/11/2008 at 14:29:14

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Tony Marsh; What the hell are you doing calling DM a "Ginger Scotsman". What has that got to do with football? You really get petty when we win.
Patty Beesley
64   Posted 04/11/2008 at 14:21:29

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Steve Jones says that Moyes seems to ruin strikers... well the weeks Andy Johnson has been a Fulham player should have got him back on the right track then!! Quite honestly, for me he was not impressive and was quite nondescript... hang on a minute, perhaps he felt sorry for his old Club and decided he better not score against them!!
Lee Hind
65   Posted 04/11/2008 at 14:24:21

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Some of the posts on here are amazing to read, agree with him or not, Tony M can get a debate going!!

My 2p’s worth is this. I’d love to see us zip the ball round and play attractive football every week - I even shout at Moyes/the TV when teams like Fulham turn up who don’t exactly rag us silly and we STILL play 4-5-1. (That said, 4-5-1 on Saturday was really 4-4-2. Anyone could see that. )

But we can’t always zip it around and the bottom line is that I’d rather us win ugly or otherwise than draw or lose. Sometimes I don’t understand Moyes subs (I’d have shifted Osman before Fellaini all day long on Saturday) but I understand he knows more than me about managing a football team so I sure as hell don’t boo the substitution!

Finally, I’ve agreed before when people have bemoaned Moyes perceived inability to make an attacking substitution and go and try win the game. So when he pulls midfielders off and puts attackers on lets try and remember thats a good thing.

Anyone who says Fellaini for Saha wasn’t a match-winning substitution needs their head examined. Fellaini didn’t score, Saha did, may all the substitutions for the rest of the season go that way!!!
Richard Harris
66   Posted 04/11/2008 at 14:43:05

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EJ Ruane wrote "Next thing you?ll be telling us "..AND ?ees no better than ?ee should be" (while winking at a Minnie Caldwell look-a-like, folding your arms and supping a Mackies)".
That Minnie Caldwell was a right little minx and she could have entertained me any day of the week :0)
John Fitzparick
67   Posted 04/11/2008 at 14:41:27

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I happen to agree with a lot of what Tony says as watching Everton is about exciting as watching paint dry, in all my years of watching Everton which is 36 years in total this is the worst standard of football I can remember and I blame the manager for this even under Walter Smith and Gordon Lee we at least tried to play a bit of football under Moyes we are more like Wimbledon.
Ciarán McGlone
68   Posted 04/11/2008 at 14:41:27

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Can I suggest that your reposte to the ?one-eyed view? is a little... shall we say... one-eyed. Can you please explain how a comparison of managers net spend and points accumulated works?

It seems to me like a completely fabricated point....while you?re at it can you tell me how many managers have been in the league long enough to make a valid comparison with Moyes.

I?m really interested in how the methodology of this statistic works.
Nick Bird
69   Posted 04/11/2008 at 14:47:59

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People complain about hoofball and then want us to bring in Allardyce!!! WTF!!!
What do you think his tactics are!
Ciarán McGlone
70   Posted 04/11/2008 at 14:49:51

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Lee Hind,

There?s a difference between a match winning substitution and an intelligent substitution... the difference between the two on this occasion was pure and simple luck... we could have just as easily lost the match by leaving Cahill on the pitch... which left us less than toothless in midfield.

It may have been a match winning substitution in the fact that Saha came on ? but it certainly wasn?t an intelligent substitution.
Stefan Tosev
71   Posted 04/11/2008 at 14:50:03

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There was such an comparison on Sky or Times and Moyes was the best pound for pound Manager in Premielr League.

And for the your other question ask yourself why there arent many to compare Moyes with.
Paul Mosses
72   Posted 04/11/2008 at 15:13:35

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Ciaran, theres no point discussing anything with you because your obviously that anti-Moyes, you can't give the fella praise, even when his substitution produces the winning goal.

Where you at the game ??

Osman was probably our best midfielder (not hard on Saturday admittedly), Cahill was anonymous I agree, but Fellaini was no better, for me it was 1 of the 2, Fellaini was on his 3rd game in a week, Cahill had missed 3 games, though you wouldn't have thought it.

But anyway, by your theory that the substitution was pure good luck, whenever a substitution goes wrong, is it just pure bad luck ??
John Andrews
73   Posted 04/11/2008 at 14:51:18

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Whatever happens, Tony, for pities sake keep those posts coming! Some threads just die on their feet whilst others, normally yours, at least stimulate folks' opinions, whether they are for or against you.

I happen to agree with quite a lot of what you have to say. The standard of football being served up at the moment is appalling. Don?t worry, mate ? only five more years of this dross. Hopefully!

Tony Williams
74   Posted 04/11/2008 at 15:24:23

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"In all my years of watching Everton, which is 36 years in total this is the worst standard of football I can remember."

John, I would suggest a quick trip to the hospital mate, as it seems that you have symptoms of the early onset of Alzheimer's. If you honestly believe that we are playing our worst football in 36 years then you have lost a couple of years somewhere.
Ciarán McGlone
75   Posted 04/11/2008 at 15:23:05

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Could you explain how this pound for pound thing works then?

As for Moyes’re on to a matter which is likely to raise a few hackles...has moyes deserved to stay as long as he has? debatable. Would he have stayed as long as he has under any other chairman? unlikely.

Paul Mosses - You kind of miss my point on substitutions - they can be lucky or intelligent or both..the leavbing on of Cahill and the removal of Fella was certainly not the intelligent option, but it proved to be the lucky one!

As for Osman, you must’ve been watching a different match..all the players apart from Yobo were poor on saturday, but he along with Cahill was the pick of the cráp.

MOM award for a goal scoring cross? yes I can see how thats all they had to go on.

P.S As much as you want me to be anti-Moyes to suit your optimism filled counter argument - I’m not. Simply Objective. You should try it. It’s liberating.
Stefan Tosev
76   Posted 04/11/2008 at 16:16:56

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I will try one last time, if you can get some points, good; if not ....Moyes has acquired more points on average than any other Manager outside Top 4; based only on net spending Everton should lie 10th in the table.

He took a perennial relegation candidate, which has been only 2 times in 12 years of EPL in top 10 to 3 European qualification in 4 years, do you know when was the last time that happened?!? Even Harry Catterick can't boost such an achievement and don't forget we used to be known as Merseyside Millionaires.

To your questions ? has Moyes deserved to stay as long as he has? ? More than deserved
Would he have stayed as long as he has under any other chairman? The question should be: If it wasn?t for Moyes would Kenwright have been able to stay so long as a Chairman?

Everything else is for deluded individuals as you and T Marsh
Les Haigh
77   Posted 04/11/2008 at 15:51:32

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Tony Marsh, Esq., please DON?T stop posting your articles. They are always worth a read - even if one doesn?t agree the content. Look, you?ve had 73 comments in response - mine is the 74th - which is amazing seeing you only posted yours yesterday. We need your articles to generate interest amongst "ToffeeWeb" readers. So, please keep posting ?em Tony lad.
Michael Hunt
78   Posted 04/11/2008 at 16:48:58

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Re style of football, I remember when we beat City last year that Sven Goran Swedishman said he berated his team in the dressing room, for reverting to long high balls against our strong defence. He said that if he?d expected them to play that he?d have bought much bigger, more physical players. He said he told the players that if any of them did not keep it on the deck when possible in future he?d drop and then sell him!

Since we were so successful last year playing on the deck in the middle portion of the season, why does not Moyes put his foot down and get the lads to play to our strength...we DO have players that can play very good FOOTball (not just hoofball!)

PS. Keep ?em coming Tone!

Ciarán McGlone
79   Posted 04/11/2008 at 16:57:01

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Stefan, Thanks for trying.

But a two-year-old with thick glasses and a white coat on could tell you that such a study is about as scientific as trephining.

If refusing to accept such clap trap makes me delluded, then so be it.

No-one's denying that Moyes has improved us, but please don?t use such foolish logic to try and prove it.

What we are saying (or what I am saying), is that he has gone as far as he can...
Russell Shoult
80   Posted 04/11/2008 at 16:44:36

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I read Tony Marsh's posts every time. Just for the craic, not because they make much sense. I am convinced that he isn't this hardline but is asked to come up with the biggest pile of bullsh!t he can to provoke responses and judging by all the comments posted. I think he?s doing a good job.

Congrats Tony, shit article, good responses.
Mark Cassin
81   Posted 04/11/2008 at 17:14:25

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I must be under 2 years old.
Joseph Moore
82   Posted 04/11/2008 at 18:30:37

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The 6,000 empty seats have over 3,000 obstructed view seats in there number. The early kick will have kept the rest away.
Ray Robinson
83   Posted 04/11/2008 at 19:04:13

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There are many reasons why attendances are on the decline but let’s not deny the effect of the credit crunch - I know of several people who are staying away because of financial concerns. But let’s not dismiss Tony Marsh’s argument about crap football either. I tend to be one of those people who is happy if we win - no matter how - but I’m far happier if we win in style. There are certainly some fans who ARE refusing to watch our style of football and stay away because of it.

Brian Waring, I love your argument. The credit crunch isn’t affecting football because Liverpool and Man Utd still sell out! It all depends on how big the waiting list is! Besides, I’m told by a Man Utd fan that they occasionally ARE actually struggling to sell out now with seats in the North Stand far easier to come by than ever before.

Back to EFC, playing unattractive football in the current economic climate is not going to boost attendances.
Dave Wilson
84   Posted 04/11/2008 at 19:06:41

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It was 9,000 short of capacity.

Don't worry though, BK has a cunning plan . . .
We surrender the city to RS and move to a characterless retail park. in the middle of nowhere.

Ok, so it?ll Alienate half the 30,000 who are staying faithful, but we?ll soon replace them with "thousands and thousands of new fans" from the untapped catchment area that the Mancs and RS havent heard of yet.

Told you it was cunning.
Kunal Desai
85   Posted 04/11/2008 at 21:15:29

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Yes its great we’ve picked up two wins in our last two matches but what’s of great concern is the opposition, lets not hide from the fact that we’ve JUST managed to score past two sides who come the end of the season are likley to finish in the bottom 3. As proved earlier in the season, we’ve played mediocre sides like Blackburn and pompey and both have managed to pummel 3 past us, I dread to think what’ll happen when mancity, villa, spurs come to town.

On another note re: attendances i would imagine, just as an estimation that 80/85% of 35000+ crowd of evertonians live within a 3-5 miles radius of the ground and these presumably being the regular followers. Others are possibly those living outside of liverpool or even travelling from abroad. It may not be so painful in the current state watching everton and only travelling 15/20 mins back home but if your like me, doing a 8hr round trip and we’ve lost and played shite, then the whole day is ruined!! which is likely to be the 10/15% of supporters staying away. I for one won’t be attending Goodison until the football changes and players of a ’better’ calibre are brought in. I hope it’s sooner rather than later, fortunately i’ve witnessed some great games at goodison and my last was worth every penny 7-1 sunderland!!!.....i’m certain there won’t be a repeat performance like that for a very long time to come.
Anthony Dyer
86   Posted 04/11/2008 at 22:05:11

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How many can remember Blackburn coming to Goodison and scoring early doors through Shearer. For the rest of the game they hoofed the ball at every opportunity. The Goodison crowd gave them loads because they were supposed to be champions elect.

There?s was an old saying that went something like you go to Anfield for goals and Goodison for football.

It?s a very long time since that saying stood up to the test.

All this results business is all well and good, but it doesn?t necessarily build a good team.

Nigel Martyn said that what destroyed Leeds United was they started trying to play more football. I cannot agree with him as every time I saw them they were a decent side.

Moyes job is not under threat (at the moment) he has a good group of players yet we still struggle to put in hafl-decent performances.

Like many Evertonians I would forgive the odd defeat if the side was developing a ?STYLE? of play, but like TM I can?t see it happening even after 6 years.

5th from top or 5th from bottom doesn?t matter if the football is crap to watch.
Jamie Carroll
87   Posted 04/11/2008 at 22:35:52

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The 4-5-1 arguement I agree 100% (poor yak is being ruined by moyes tactics,sad) but after watching Liverpool to night, for a team considered to be challenging for the title, that was just as bad as some of Everton?s passing. It?s happening all over the Premier League, so moyes Everton isn?t alone. But the 4-5-1 wil be the death knell for the Yak.
Connor Rohrer
88   Posted 04/11/2008 at 22:56:15

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I don’t get it to be honest. The majority of people on this website, including Tony rate Tim Cahill very highly. I here things like "he’s Mr Everton" or "Tim Cahill is what Everton are all about."

You love the lad yet you moan when Moyes sets up to accomadate him and play to his strengths. I thought he was one of our best players? If he then that’s in a 4-4-1-1 not a 4-4-2 where he doesn’t perform nor does it suit him.

I don’t see what was wrong with the subs to be honest. We wheren’t bossing the midfield with 5 against 4 so we may aswell stick three pacy, physical strikers upfront and go for the more direct route.

Get people into the ball and rough them up. It worked didn’t it? Saha certainly scored from what I remember.

If he’s have brought a centre back on in the last 10 minutes you can moan but Moyes acted fast and brought positive players onto the pitch and it worked.

As people have already stated this so called 4-5-1 is more of a 4-4-1-1 away from home and basically a 4-4-2 with Cahill playing right up alongside Yakubu at Goodison. I’m not a fan of it but that’s what it is. Cahill basically plays as a striker.

If you couldn’t see that in the game then I advise you to watch it again. It’s not like Cahill plays in the middle of the park as a 5th midfielder, he plays in the final third of the pitch slightly deeper than Yakubu.
Karl Masters
89   Posted 04/11/2008 at 23:25:31

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Whilst I don’t agree that it’s all Moyes fault, I do agree that we should be worried about crowds.

Not just the numbers, but the ages. The average age is getting higher all the time. In 50 years there’ll be none of us left! Where are all the teenagers? The fans of tomorrow and thecseason ticket holders for years to come.

Personally I think that the drop is down to ( in no particular order):

Ridiculous kick off times ( no Saturday 3pm kick off between AUG 30 & JAN 10 and that’s if the Hull game isn’t moved as well! )

High fuel prices make it more expensive for long distance supporters.

Credit crunch - less spare cash, more job worries etc

The pathetic Summer has bred apathy - nit certainly has in me.

Kirkby has produced alienation in a significant number of fans.

Poor start on the pitch.

Entertainment value low.

Prices too high for many people. Need a more imaginative structure to encourage the young, jobless, poor etc.

Too easy to watch on Sky - Football First is fantastic for the armchair fan - and there’s always the internet and .Pubs showing ( not always legally ) matches.

Lots of reasons.... Football in general wants to watch its step. Fast becoming a Top 4 wankfest while everbody else fights for the UEFA Cup only to find it an arduous, non money making slog that prevents them getting any higher. BORING...

Bobby Sorenson
90   Posted 05/11/2008 at 01:56:42

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I agree with Tony to a certain extent with the drop in gate receipts. As to Everton being boring & playing negative camp in our own half football he?s spot on. We gave the ball away when we got in their third and besides the big fella hiting the post we never did much else.

Cahill should not have started, he?s right: Fulham at home, who we have always took 3 points off, should have been a 4-4-2, simple as that. The Yak had no support, Cahill ain?t match fit yet, of course he could have banged one in but so could have 2 strikers against a very poor Fulham side that has bought half a new squad & are very poor.

I?m made up with the 2 clean sheets but sometimes statistics don?t tell the full story. The last 10 minutes of the first half in the Man Utd game and the second half we were great but we still haven?t played a good 90 minutes yet and we?re only 10 games in. Why flood the pitch with strikers coming off the bench when we should have had 2 to start with?

We?ve rode our luck a bit to be honest, being 7th now is to do with the fact everyone is beating each other. Positive football Everton kill teams off. we're out of 2 cups & no excuse about a threadbare squad, only Lars is injured. Chelsea won the prem with a slim squad & now we've got more quality apparently.

Coyb, beat the hammers & if Man Utd do Arsenal & Hull get beat (bubble will burst) we can go 2 points behind them. Lets get out of 2nd gear and move up a notch

Sean Condon
91   Posted 05/11/2008 at 05:20:37

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Michael, you could not be more wrong. The above possibly constitutes the most erudite contribution Mr Marsh has made to this great site so far.

It?s enough for me to know that Tony bleeds as Blue as you or i, to know that he was there at the Reebok, hopping up and down when Maro scored, to tolerate his more incendiary, and often, inchoate posts.

But he?s bang on the money here.

The entertainment on display in the last two games has verged on fucking criminal. Criminal in that Moyes is allowed to throw this dreck up before us time and time again, when, as evidenced by the second half against ManUre, this team is capable of so much more.

I cannot remember being as disheartened by three points as I was on Saturday. Utter shit.

Davey boy, yer time is up. The Celtic job will be available soon. Fuckin? run for it.

Trevor Lynes
92   Posted 05/11/2008 at 06:42:30

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One or two of you have hit on the right subject... football is a 90 minute game and so far we have not played a full 90 minutes of decent football in any game this season. I love to win BUT we should be entertaining too... football is an entertainment and when I see sides like Hull play good football it galls me when I see the basic skills of the game being out of reach of our well paid professionals here at EFC.

Our passing is very, very slow and I can hardly remember a defence-splitting pass made from the back to the front in any game this season. Arteta looks like he wants away... his body language is awful and he looks like he is not enjoying his game at all. If he is off form then the whole side suffers as he is our one top class player.

I have been championing Baines cause ever since the Pompey match when he was our lone star. He must be tried in front of Lescott at the expense of either Cahill, Osman or Pienaar because Lescott does not have the pace to attack down the left and is often exposed when trying to get back. He does not have the pace of a Clichy, Cole, Bridge or anyone else of that ilk. He is purely a defender who scores goals from set pieces and that is his job... full stop. Try Baines FFS!!

I want us to win every week, but with some semblance of style.

Ciarán McGlone
93   Posted 05/11/2008 at 08:36:18

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You admit that Cahill does not work in a 4-4-2, yet can?t see what was wrong with the subs... even though it left Cahill in a 4-4-2 and eventually a 4-3-3..

Can you see what?s wrong with this statement?
Lee Hind
94   Posted 05/11/2008 at 09:41:39

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I don?t manage a Premier League team so I?m just going to have to default to the man that manages mine - if he thought it was a good idea to replace Fellaini with Saha and we win the game, then thats fine by me.

If he thought it was a good idea to replace Fellaini with Saha and we go on to lose the game, then questions need to be raised.

I don?t know if you?ve noticed but football is a results business. Results are more important than performance (though often good results follow good performances, but not always). We?ve had a shocking start to the season based on the expectation created last time out. We needed a bit of luck to get through that and I would say that we?ve had it. There will be time for good performances later on, results first - ALWAYS, especially when the PL is as competitive as this one is shaping up to be.

My personal opinion is that I?m not sure if Moyes can take us further than he has, BUT he?s also what we?ve got (and likely to have for the next 5 years) so rather than carry on an anti-Moyes tirade and get myself all bitter and twisted I?ll support my club ? lucky or otherwise.
Seamus Murphy
95   Posted 05/11/2008 at 10:00:57

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People forget that the away team get an allocation of approx. 4,000 and they had about 100 with them unlike say, Newcastle. That has a huge effect on the attendance.
Connor Rohrer
96   Posted 05/11/2008 at 10:19:21

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Ciarán McGlone,

I don’t like to see Cahill starting in a 4-4-2, I’ve said many times he isn’t suited to that position.

But at that point in the game we needed to get close to Fulham and we needed to get into the faces of both Murphy and Bullard who where controlling the second half. He’s got a better workrate than Fellaini and he’s more likely to get in there faces and mix it up. Fellaini despite looking useful was getting bypassed quite alot.

It was a tactical substitution, we weren’t even controlling the game with 5 in midfield so the best way to go was stop them playing and go for the more direct route. Cahill’s not a good centre midfielder by any means but he can certainly do a job there for 20 minutes.

In a 4-3-3 I don’t have a problem, it’s basically a different varitation of 4-5-1. That position would suit Tim.

The Subs worked, Louis Saha scored and we won the game.
Tony McKeown
97   Posted 05/11/2008 at 12:21:16

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I have to agree with Tony, having held a season ticket for over 20 years, I decided not to re-new this season because I felt it no longer represented value for money, not that it was too expensive but it does not give me the same pleasure as it used too.

I only look forward to two games a season, when we play Arsenal and Man Utd. Both of these teams play attacking exciting football. I know they have been able to spend money but come on, let's not be misled ? I would have hoped we could at least get it into the back four that we do not have a giant rampaging centre forward who can hold the ball up till the troops arrive, so why bang it up field in the hope that we get a break?

We have the players in midfield who like to pass it around, Pienaar, Arteta, Osman, Fellaini. We have strikers who like it into feet in the or around the area, yet week after week after week we resort to long ball "hoof it and see" tactics. Moyes has to look at what he is serving to the fans, I would rather go to the game and be entertained and get beat, rather than play negative football and still get beat.

Moyes also needs to look at what made him so popular at Goodison; he used to make decisions that were bold, he never used to hesitate, he often dragged off two and three at a time, in order to change games. Moyes seems unable to withdraw Cahill from any game, no matter how ineffective he is; also it is apparent that Arteta is having a real dip in form, but he still remains on in every game. Moyes appears to be favouring certain players and isolating others (Baines for example).

I am so frustrated but satisfied that I made the right decision not to get a season tkt this year. I will go to the games that offer me value for money and entertainment in the same package. I still watch us play and feel as frustrated as ever.

Moyes once complained that he was not able to buy the players to take us to the next level; I agree we need major investment for that to happen, but why can he not consolidate and make us the strongest team outside the rich four? We are spun lies and deceit year on year, we are the laughing stock of the league at times. We continually fail to attract the right sort of players, be it because of our wage structure or whatever... but fail we do.

We criticise our players to the extent that form is lost and is difficult to regain, Hibbert, Fellaini, Baines , Neville, Jagielka, Yakubu, Lescott ? the list goes on; these players have all been abused by us "fans". I am not saying that times the have been in need of a good verbal bashing but we never let it go, week on week they are slagged off ? is it not possible that these players talk to other players and that they say when it's good it's great but when it's bad you are never forgiven? And if you add to the fact that we have plenty of bad times why would anyone want to come here?

I could go on, but I think the point is clear, the credit crunch may offer a reason for attendances dropping off, but the simple fact that fans are feeling cheated also has to be considered. The passion needs to be put back into the players and in return the passion will reflect in an upturn in attendances and postive feelings from the fans.

Message to Bill Kenwright: you have done what you could for your beloved blues, but wake up and smell the coffee; you need to sell up to a major investor and soon. Give Moyes the opportunity to deal in the big market, before it is too late and the credit crunch hits our club and we plunge into desperate dangerous waters and find ourselves unable to survive.

Will Brennan
98   Posted 05/11/2008 at 12:28:21

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Just got out of hozzy after a minor op & straight on to TW. Got to say I thought TM got it absolutely spot on. It could so easily have gone against us in both games. Moyes got everything totally wrong on Sat from the start and got lucky against poor opposition. Believe me better sides than the last two will test us a lot more.

Let's see a more positive performance against WHU. I agree Arteta & Pienaar may not be on fire but let's see us getting them into the game more in the last 3rd with better balls into the box for the strikers.

Ciarán McGlone
99   Posted 05/11/2008 at 14:48:23

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Conor, It didn't work; Cahill didn?t do a good job for 20 minutes - the game passed him by...

and whenever I?m talking about him in a 4-3-3, he played in a midfield position in that 4-3-3, not in an advanced position.

The substitution was half right ? he brought on the right player but took off the wrong one.


If you intend defaulting to Moyes every time then what?s the point in coming on here...
Paul Tran
100   Posted 05/11/2008 at 15:34:23

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How about this for some reasons behind falling gates:

We have a chairman who says he can’t do any more for the club.

We have a manager who said he can’t do any more with the players he has bought and he coaches.

Despite finishing 6th and 5th and making genuine progress, we are unable to attract quality players to the club.

Despite all the ’stability’ we appear to have no coherent transfer policy.

Seven years on, we are playing the kind of football I would expect from a manager who has just turned up at a club in a crisis.

I’m pleased that we have got seven ugly points in the last week. I suspect that the missing fans are disappointed that after all this time, winning ugly is the best we’re going to get.
Lee Smith
101   Posted 05/11/2008 at 16:39:40

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just wanted to be the 100th comment :)
Bradley Pitt
102   Posted 05/11/2008 at 16:49:11

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" ....more Polyfilla in the cracks before the wallpaper goes over it. "

Tony, polyfilla is usually sufficient for wall cracks, it is the use of paper alone which is to be avoided ? presumeably you feel we are doing things right.
Fred Farthing
103   Posted 05/11/2008 at 16:56:25

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Ciaran McGlone, it may have escaped your attention but Daivid Moyes has just signed a lengthy contract with Everton FC and will be with us for some time yet.

Unless you are Nostradamus in disguise ? judging from the calibre of your "analyses" I would have to doubt that ? what is the point of spouting the opinion that "he has taken us as far as he can"? Repeat ad nauseum to fade and leave yourself open to the verdict of history which I trust will show you up to be wholly and idiotically wrong.
Ciarán McGlone
104   Posted 05/11/2008 at 17:27:38

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Interesting prediction there Fred...
Tony Williams
105   Posted 05/11/2008 at 19:14:04

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"I have to agree with Tony, having held a season ticket for over 20 years, I decided not to re-new this season because I felt it no longer represented value for money"

Brought a smile to my face this comment, so you thought the season after we finished 17 and they then hiked the prices up (in the lower Gwlady by over £100) value for money?
Lee Hind
106   Posted 05/11/2008 at 22:05:52

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Sorry, I must have missed the bit on the ToffeeWeb homepage that says I can?t post if I disagree with you.

Or is it only those who hate Moyes allowed to post here?

As things stand, I have to default to Moyes, he?s the manager of my club. I don?t have to agree with everything he does, and I reserve the right to complain when things go wrong. Difference between you and I is when we?ve gained 7 points from the last 9 I don?t feel the need to grumble quite so loud.

I?m grateful for where Moyes has taken us in the time he?s been in charge ? either you?ve got a short memory or you?re not grateful? Which is it?

One other question ? if we played just well enough (got late goals to win games we didn?t play well in, got a few lucky draws etc) for the rest of the campaign to get the results we need to score 5th again for example would you be ok with that, or would you still be wound up we didn?t play better?

Jason Lam
107   Posted 06/11/2008 at 06:26:38

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Bloody hell at least Tony Marsh guarantees crowds!

The Fulham game was bloody awful even on TV. To make matters worse, Moyes brings on the match winner by taking off our most expensive signing, who was probably the only one passing the ball along the grass with class and poise.

Hey, no point passing the ball around in midfield, hoof it to Anichebe at right-midfield, who can hold off 2 players, and set up the cross for either one of Saha, Yak or Vaughan. The percentage game won it in the end, and now we’ll be seeing more of it. Groan!!!!
Ciarán McGlone
108   Posted 06/11/2008 at 13:20:26

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I certainly didn?t say you couldn?t post and would never consider such a position.... I merely questioned the that lack of personal opinion in ?defaulting to Moyes? every time...

It seems a little puposeless on a forum of this type ? but then again, I suppose the right to an opinion also extends to the right to not have an opinion.

Didn?t mean to offend you.
Bob Parrington
109   Posted 06/11/2008 at 13:39:28

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Crikey! I?ve missed this one having been in China on business. Now it?s good to be at Hong Kong airport for a 7 hour connection time. Time to catch up!

Michael - I reckon you were a bit hard on Tony - first off the rank an? all that. You asked for more postings!

I?m not saying you?re wrong and Tony?s right but ? eh! give the guy a break. He?s entitled to his opinion.

Let?s face it ? most of the postings are right in one way or another. We?re not playing brilliant football but..... y?know, we?ve got some really good players. We?re just not playing them as a team. So, what?s the problem?

When it comes to management and technical support staff I reckon, other than the quids, it?s the same at any club ? pro or amateur. A club needs a manager who is a leader and a technical support crew that the manager can work with and the support crew that can work with the manager. Get either wrong and you?re stuffed.

I reckon none of the players go out intending to have a crap game but ..... too many of our guys look like they?re eating the wrong damn breakfast cereal. I have the firm belief that it is the manager?s job to take the players he?s got and work them together as a team (OK, he can add to it at allowed window times (cash permitting) but he absolutely must have that clear understanding of strategy).

Look at England. I?ve been saying for years that you can?t play Lampard and Gerrard on the pitch at the same time (well, at least on the same team). They get in each other?s bleedin? way ... all the damn time. So why do all the "high paid" manager/coaches keep on doin? the same thing.

Our guys don?t seem to be fitting together in just the same way. But, as I said earlier, we?ve got some talent. So, pppplease Moyesee.... work out how they fit together and get on with it. It can?t be rocket science.

Do I sound peed off? I reckon, like everyone who has posted here, I?m just frustrated with the crap way we?re playing. We just each have a different idea of exactly where the problem is. Go for it, Marshy, even though I don?t agree with everything you say.
Joey Dela
110   Posted 06/11/2008 at 15:57:03

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Tony - spot on again. If DM had been a great manager, why did clubs like Spurs not run in when he had his contract dispute. As a long life Evertonian fetched up on Alan Ball school of science football etc. I agree in your analysis of crude hoof ball, the passing is slow, we have no speed in the teams he selects minus VICTOR & VAUGHNY! He subs when there is only minutes to go, Saha is only useful as a sub, & the only midfielder who scores from outside the box in Castillo has one great game & disappears?????
Paul Johnson
111   Posted 06/11/2008 at 16:25:21

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I don't go the match this season (didn't renew my season ticket) after much soul searching. But to be honest I have felt this way after the previous 2 seasons. It has been an accumulation of a number of things mostly related to the football. But in the back of my mind I have had the feeling of the piss being taken out of me by the club. I know of many people who feel the same way.

Can't get a pie at half-time, cheap beer at premium prices, last minute rushed signings. Being treated like a second-class citizen by stewards and police. Then, to top it all, the football is erratic in as much we are not aiming to break into the top four anymore. I am not being fooled by the rhetoric. Just thought I?d give you my take on why the gates are down and are dropping. People will put up with a lot of crap if they are being entertained.

Garry Martin
112   Posted 08/11/2008 at 07:59:52

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On Team selection, I was totally confused by the subbing of Fellaini, also, Cahill should have been on the bench.

On the attendance, I believe it reflects the lack of attraction of the opposition. <>On tactics, I think we all accept that at times (perhaps more!) Moyes is lacking; however, shouldn?t that also be attributable to the assistant coach?

On reflection, I think at times football is about confidence and I believe the current lucky wins (without any question) will be the springboard for an improved belief in our players' ability.


Ian Ankers
113   Posted 09/11/2008 at 13:29:14

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Well Tony, I?ve read your post and as usual there?s more than 100 responses. You certainly know how to get people typing.

On this occasion (and its a rare one), I do actually agree with most of what you are saying. I don?t know the facts regarding attendances so I can?t comment on that, but from a footballing point of view, I think your post is spot on. I can see why some people would rather stay away and watch on the internet or wherever and save a fortune. Not me, I keep on going the match, but I do find myself wondering why I bother a lot of the time.

It's not been great of late even if the results don?t show it. I like, most fans come away from these drab games which we?ve managed to get 3 points from thinking "oh well, we?ve got the points and that's what really matters", but it would be nice to have a little more that just "the points" from time to time. 45 minutes against Man U, that's the only good football I can remember off the top of my head, maybe there's been more, but if I can?t remember it, that kinda tells me that it wasn?t worth remembering!

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