The Mail Bag
Pienaar for Keane plus cash
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Seems a given that Pienaar sees his future away from Goodison next year, with Spurs his most likely destination. He's been a massive player for the Blues this season ending with a much deserved Player of the Season award.
If the guy wants to leave, I don't think there is much we can do to keep him; instead of another Lescott type transfer, we should accept now we need to move him on, maximise the cash we get, and give Moyes money to bring in a couple of new faces at the start of pre-season instead of last minute as always seems the way with Moyes's transfer dealings.
Personally, I would love to see Robbie Keane at the Blues as part of a player plus cash deal for Pienaar. The lad is out of favour but is a proven goalscorer who we all know has the ability to open up a defense. Would Keane be an acceptable replacement for the loss of Pienaar?
Mark Ambrose, Posted 05/05/2010 at 07:55:43
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However, Robbie Keane in place of him? NO, thanks. Robbie Keane as an Everton player — with Pienaar in the side — YES, definitely... but I really wish it had've happened a few years ago before he went to the Shite. Always had admiration for his 100% efforts and dangerous attributes. Not too sure now, though... he's coming up to 30 years old!
If Spurs want Pienaar, they can pay the going rate for a class act midfielder who is well adjusted to Premier League football — not by offering us their cast-offs.
I would sooner he languish in the reserves for a season rather than go to one of our rivals for fourth spot next season, regardless of what stupid amount of cash and / or player deals are tabled.
In my personal opinion we have no massive need to panic over the striker situation, we have by all accounts a really good prospect in the Portuguese and my personal belief is the Yak will come good after the World Cup.
We are all a little quick to forget just what a massive injury his was and, although he came back sooner than expected, the road to recovery is longer than just getting back on the football field.
Oh and I would like to see James Vaughan go to Leicester for a year to see if he can stay fit and get a much needed run in a team... I still believe an injury free Vaughan is our best striker at the club.
Several player's including Jagielka, Osman and Arteta have already gone on record regarding the importance of hitting the ground running in 2010-11 in what many perceive to be a pivotal moment in time for the present squad and its nucleus of players. The distraction of the second-rate Europa league, midweek games and Sunday kick-off's will have no bearing on next season's events; with key players fit and the right attitude, there has never been a better time to make an assault on the Top 4.
In getting back to the original post, Steven Pienaar is quite rightly considered to be in the band of 'top players' at Everton and therefore quite rightly deserves parity with the high earners. If Everton can offer this parity then it's Steven Pienaar's call; if he feels that his future lies elsewhere, good luck to him. After Wayne Rooney, I no longer buy into the skewed concept of loyalty.
Despite all the wild figures bandied about, we'll only get about £6 million IMO for a player with 12 months left on his contract and it would create more instability with his replacement (If we get one) taking time to bed in.
If he wants to go, then no throwing toys out of the pram... just sell him and get on with it.
Strangely enough, I can't recall Pienaar ever saying anything complimentary about the fans or club — in the way that Arteta or Tim does...
He's hardly irreplaceable... in fact his inconsistency makes him rather annoying for long periods of time.
Mark, why is it certain and why will be it be Spurs?
Really hope I'm wrong.
The above from one Steven Pienaar. Not making noises to leave and not giving non-committal answers like Lescott. He may still go but I think he does have some affection for the club and the fans. I would pull out all the stops to keep him.
As for Robbie Keane, three or four years ago yeah, now not so sure, and certainly not in a swap.
His game can vary in effectiveness just like any other player but we always get a full shift out of Peanuts and our sudden improvement in form at the end of last year was directly attributable to his return after his long injury absence.
He gives us incredible effort and his creativity is on a par with Arteta's. He was the player of last summer's South African tournament (despite all the Brazilians on show) and it was a pleasure watching him knowing he wore the Blue shirt!
If he decides his future lies elsewhere then fair enough, but I for one will be disappointed to see him go....if indeed he does.
The only people rubbing their hands if Keane comes back to Merseyside are at Leo's Casino as that's were you will find him most nights.
In the first game against Arsenal, Messi was poor and they took him off. In the second game against Arsenal he was incredible. In the game against Inter Milan he was totally ineffective and although his performance against Tenerife was better, it was still quite ineffective.
Ergo, Messi is inconsistent. He is a bit of a diver too! I think Barcelona might want to get rid!
Seems like perfect sense to me.
As far as I'm concerned, Moyes's most important job this summer is to keep Pienaar and I certainly wouldn't entertain replacing him for Robbie Keane who has been inconsistency personified (not to mention his questionable attitude) at Spurs and Liverpool.
I'm not saying I want him to go — I just think if it happens, it'll not be the end of the world.
I would argue that he suffers from two things based on his being our most dangerous player: one is that the weight of expectation falls on him, so that when the team isn't playing well, people look to him and think he should be doing more.
Part of the reason he's unable to do that is that other teams are aware that our left side is far more threatening than our right, so point two is that opponents single him out as a danger man (like they do with Messi). Pienaar needs the likes of Arteta in the side to provide an alternative threat (like Messi does with the likes of Xavi and Iniesta).
Back to the OP, I'd have Keane in our squad, but not at the expense of Pienaar. He's not the player he was and in the market (transfer fee, wages) he's probably way over-valued, so he's not a player I'd be looking at at all. We need to bring in younger guys.
And Dave (#18), not that I really care, but Messi is one of the most honest, least diving players I've ever seen. He can get fouled five times in one run and he just keeps going, backing his talent to get through anyway.
As much as I like Pienaar, but Modric is a class above, younger and has more time left on his contract
While Pienaar's comments yesterday were promising, it's not guarentee he will stay, I think the onus is very much on Everton. Show Pienaar we're ambitious, show him that we will challenge and he'll stay (a bumper pay increase will also ease the process).
But is this a Catch-22 situation? To show ambition we need to buy. To buy we need to sell. Selling key stars shows a lack of ambition.
We will sell someone, it may be Pienaar, it may be someone else. We just have to play the waiting game.
On Keane, I'd have him, he is a class player who is low on confidence. Moyes could get the best out of him and Keane at his best is one of the top forwards in the PL. But he isn't a Pienaar replacement, and given our lack of prowess on the right side of midfield, I'd be more inclined to sign a direct replacement for Pienaar before going for a forward.
But this post seems to be taking tabloid rumours as fact; they ain't... far from it, we're gonna be linked with every player under the sun between now and September, as every Everton player will be linked with every club, so let's take speculation with a pinch of salt shall we...
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Ok. I'll reciprocate.
I think that's a pretty fair summation of why his perceived inconsistencies would be more obvious.
We have certain players... and when they play well, the team tends to play well. When they play badly, it's obvious.
Agree with Lyndon. We were rubbish at the start of last season and Pienaar came back and upped performances, then was head-butted in the knee at Portsmouth and the team went backwards.
When he did come back it coincided with other players and eventually Donavan turned up to take all the plaudits. Having Arteta passing the ball is all fine and well but with the pace Pienaar has, he adds his own dimension.
Needs to stay, but if he doesn't want to, give him a shove!
2008 Pienaar broke a toe pre-season and we started like snails until he came back in late October when we then won 3 in a row and it all started happening.
2009 we won 4 games in a row up until his injury at Portsmouth. We then won only one game in 10 before he returned at the end of November, since which time we have lost 4 in 27 ( BATE does not count as it was a joke match.)
There are other factors, there are opinions, but the fact is we do much better with him in the team.
I hope he stays!
Honestly, I wouldn't believe the date on a tabloid. BTW Pienaar was quoted as saying that he wants to be here next year in the Guardian today, so maybe he's lying or the Sun's lying; we'll get to know next season.
"Wouldn't give that tax dodging lion out of the Wizard of Oz a thing."
ref Harry Redknapp can't be beaten, well done mate.
Pienaar; I'll be surprised if he stays...
He is very important to the team but we'll move on if he goes. My hope is he's just sussing out his options before deciding to stay with us. I don't think you can blame him for having a look to decide if the grass is greener elsewhere. I just hope he makes the right decision.
Pienaar will go and, frankly, the sooner the better. David Moyes saved his career and that is DM's strongest point. I have many reservations about our coach but picking up apparent duds and making them proper players is what he excels at. So... what about Doyle and Eagles, they fit the Moyes profile and they certainly fit our budget.
Finally, I am sure regulars are heartily sick of this, but.... get McGinn from Celtic. I am evangelical about this lad and for good reason. He is special.
Ciaran, Pienaar puts a lot of work in off the ball, something you don't perhaps pick up on when watching on the television.
What fucking planet are you on?
Thank goodness for a bit of common sense. You guys spend years craving joined-up, on-the-carpet football and, at the first glimpse of it, you want to throw us into reverse again.
Arteta and Fellaini play their best stuff when Pienaar is playing.
Suggest we sell the Prem's biggest hoofer and the roof falls in, but when it comes to selling the reason our football is so much sweeter this season, some people can't get rid quick enough. I despair.
Andy Crooks;
Give it up lad. McGinn is 23 in a month or so, if he is going to have a career at all, he'd better hurry up.
I'd never regard him as important as Fellaini and Arteta, but nevertheless a first teamer definitely worth keeping.
He reminds me at times of Roy Keane. At first glance not a great player, but his link-up play is essential and he keeps everything pacey and keeps us moving.
I think we'd suffer (more than some seem to think) if he left. That said, if he IS off, it should be before the World Cup. No fucking about for weeks.
I know they get well paid to do a job but if you want a bit more, and even for them to love Everton like we do, then taking the attitudes some do is a shame and shame on you.
Our problem is that we have to harden and biggen the fuck up in midfield. Play spot the difference between, say, Chelsea's and our midfield just on size. The immediate thing you notice is our three lightweights: Arteta, Osman and Pienaar.
The old saying, a good big man is always better than a good small man, runs as true in football as it does in rugby. Get rid of Osman and Pienaar, replace them with Ireland and some other big bloke who has a good engine and can also play, put them alongside Cahill and Fellaini, leave it to Arteta to do the flitting around, instill a bit more sensibility on Tim and Fella yellow card weather eye-wise, and those presently ahead of us will know it is game on when fronting up against us.
For anyone to say he is overrated, or inconsistent, not as important as others, or even suggesting he is not irreplaceable... these people are sadly mistaken, to put it nicely!!!... Plus, I've only ever heard Pienaar say good things about the club and the fans, and he has said it a number of times!!!
Anyone that truly knows a bit about the game we all love, is able to see the massive benefits of Pienaar in our team, and what he adds to it.
As someone has already pointed out, his link-up play and movement are in my opinion world class... simple as that; he is a joy to watch... his balance, close control, dribbling ability, passing ability, his creativity and vision...his ability to score goals — all of this backed up with an incredible work rate!!!
He never stops running, he gets up and down that field, doing the job at both ends of the field every time... he busts a gut to get back and cover every time.
For anyone to suggest anything away from these OBVIOUS facts, seriously needs to be sent a DVD on how to play the game of football and understanding it!!!
You don't have to be a genius to see what's in front of your eyes... and Pienaar needs to stay — I truly hope he does. If he goes, then yes we will move on, but we will be much poorer for it.
Pienaar is just as valuable as Arteta, who is also world class, and deserves to be at the World Cup. To see those two line up next season along with Fellaini, will be very nice indeed!!
DM has said in the past we don't need to sign anyone else, and I have never agreed... however, right now, this squad can do the business, and although additions would be most welcome, keeping this squad together has to be the priority.
He was voted Player of the Season for a reason....because he is a class act, and we should all be hoping he stays!
He is a big part of the great football we have played on many an occasion this season... we have a great footballing midfield with the likes of Arteta, Fellaini, and I include Osman, who is very underrated and gifted with the ball at his feet (although surprisingly quite efficient in the air), Bily (I think he has real talent, and hope he shows it more next season) and Heitinga!!! All of these players are on the same wavelength when it come to playing the game intelligently and on the deck... and together they create this beautiful football we have seen at times this season!!
If the squad stays together, good things will come our way!! Pienaar and others at the club have said it... the players know it and can feel it!! COYB.
If they threw in Palychecnko then I would listen.
We'll have Bily on the left with Baines overlapping and Donovan on the right with Hibbert overlapping.
Unstoppable!
We need younger players and try our best to hang on to what we have as our squad is not large enough for a realistic challenge, especially if we let Pienaar go... he always gives 100% and was rightly voted our best player. He and Baines have a great understanding and if Redknapp is serious he should be offering Huddlestone, Palacious, Jenas or Modric.....not his cast-offs.
I reckon its an insulting, derisory offer if its factual!!
Sounds as though Pienaar wants to stay, but I do not think Spurs is his most likely destination, and Robbie Keane... ha, maybe 5 or 6 years a go but no way, never, now.
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Did I say he didn't?
Maybe that's something you don't pick up on by not actually reading the posts.
You can pull me for not going to every game all you want... some of the crap I've seen coming from you suggests it's hardly the zenith of footballing analysis.
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Dave,
That's not quite what's being said. Personally, I'm coming around to your idea... but it's hardly our choice.
Unfortunately, at the minute, Pienaar is the most likely candidate to go...
Pienaar is a cracking little player, his end result isn't always good but I wouldn't swap him for Keane. The rumours are Spurs, but Modric and Krancjar are on a par with Pienaar, I would take O'hara & Bentley as a straight swap though.
He is a great player but unlike some others who seem to go to extremes when posting, I don't think he will be as big of a loss as posters like you are making it out to be. Yes, he links up well with Baines but he also loses the ball often and so many times underhits his pass.
Let's not get into his goalscoring records because this was discussed on another site and it is considerably worse than one James McFadden's, he was hardly a success was he? (Tongue in cheek but you get my drift...)
Stephen Parris absolutely nailes it for me, Karl is also spot on.
Ciaran; Why is Pienaar the most likely candidate to go?
It always amazes me how people can see something clearly written but chose to read something totally different. I`m only just getting used to the fact that "BOOKED" can somehow be construed as "RED CARD" now if I understand it correctly, Pienaars statement "I would like to stay and be a part of it, Why not?" should really be construed as "fuck this, I`m off".
It means, 'if they don't pay me enough... or I get a better offer, I'll be off.'
It would have been just as easy for him to say... "I'm, going nowhere"... He didn't. That's the rub... Sometimes it's the things that aren't said, that are the most important.
Anyway, he's the most likely to go because he's near the end of a contract, he's at the World Cup in his own country, he's had a good season and his stocks up, and he more than likely thinks he has a chance to better himself (which is fair enough — it's his job) — oh and his agent has clearly been stoking the coals.
As I say, I don't want him to go... and you're right about his impact when we had a balanced midfield — but if (and that's an IF)... he wants to go, then so be it.
ps: From my recollection Ameobi got a straight red for that shove on Tim.
Now, I really do hope he stays. But saying he's irreplacable is not true, he's not as valuable as Arteta or Fellaini in my opinion.
Yes, it would cost a few bob to replace him but it's not impossible.
I dont know the ins and outs but get the feeling Pienaar has had to beg and scrape to get himself up the wage ladder with us and it's undeserved — if he goes then I think we should look a bit closer to home.
Ciaran's right, though — if he wants to go, put £20m on his head, take £15m and get on with finding a replacement.
I`m sure you knew I was aware of Pienaars contract situation. The point I`m making is:
The length of time left on his current contract may affect the price we get for him, but it won't dictate whether he goes or stays, he`s no different from any of our players. If it's made known to a player he can earn a lot more at another club, he is very likely to end up at that club.
You and I knew long before the Lescott saga how "binding" these contracts really are. Securing Pienaar's — or anyone else's — signature isn't a guarentee that he won't have his head turned, it just means we are likely to get a little more for him if he does.
Forget paper talk. The most likely candidate to go will be the next player to attract a concrete bid. Given the amount of money available to some of our rivals, that could be anyone. My money`s on Rodwell, but there really is no telling who will come calling for whom.
Ben; We have shown Championship form in the absence of Fellaini, we have shown relegation form in the absence of Pienaar. I`m not saying that proves anything other than that replacing Pienaar would prove very very difficult, nigh on impossible for the amount we would spend
Who did you have in mind?
As I said, you don't have to be a genius to recognise a gifted player... and Pienaar is just that. He is not my favourite player, as you suggest; I don't have one — my favourite is the team itself, and with him in it, we have a much better team.
If you cannot see how much of a loss he would be to our team, then something has to be wrong. If we could bring in a similar player of his calibre to replace him, then great... but we cannot. We don't have the money or the lure of Europe, so we need to keep the quality we have.
Every player misplaces a pass here and there, but to suggest Pienaar does it often is well wide of the mark i'm afraid. No player can perform to the highest standard every single game he plays, and before Arteta returned, everything went through Pienaar... he carried the team to an extent because we looked to go through him everytime, and looked to him to create and make something happen.
As for scoring record, goalscoring isn't the part of his game that he was brought here for, nor is it his best asset. McFadden however was a striker, played out wide on many occasions, sure, but he was a striker... Pienaar has so many more quality attributes, and his goals this year have been most welcome from midfield.
He is class, and we need to keep it here, not get rid of it!!
Just the facts please
He could've. He didn't.
I realise I will be in the minority here but I don't care whether he stays or goes. Looks like he will be on his way to me from the interview he gave. A good player but easily replaced. Heitinga, Arteta, Fellaini, and Rodwell are the essential ones we keep.
I realise I will be in the minority here but I don't care whether he stays or goes. Looks like he will be on his way to me from the interview he gave. A good player but easily replaced. Heitinga, Arteta, Fellaini, and Rodwell are the essential ones we keep.
Unless Pienaar is 100% commited to staying at the club, he'd be an idiot to say he was a) because it weakens his bargaining position and b) if he then walks he looks a proper twat!
IMO, the club need to sit around the table before the World Cup, listen to the man to see what he wants, and put him in line with the top earners. If that's not enough for him then put him in the shop window.
Here's three for you - Afellay from PSV, Montilivio from Fiorentina or perhaps Joe Cole for free?
I also think he's not irreplacable because, as a last resort, Bily could replace him. It's not the worst thing in the world because after a pre-season he should be a more confident player. Yes, not a situation I want to be in, but not the worst situation in the world.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/tottenham/article7116236.ece.
Bit of a re-tread of the one in the Guardian but positions it against fans views of players.
Read it and get a reality check on player loyalty; it doesn't exist where more money is concerned.
James Stewart; I can only assume you don't watch much football, 'Arry would dearly love our boy and would pay more than he did for Modric to get him.
Ben; Sorry, can't have any of them, two are not good enough and Joe Cole would bankrupt us.
On the basis that his statement is a negotiating tactic, the only logical conclusion would be that his words have absolutely no meaning at all... which would mean that your assertion that he is indicating that he wants to stay is equally wrong.
You can't have it both ways.
Pienaar for him? Never. Stevie Pienaar is one of Everton's true gems and probably Moyes's biggest success. He is irreplaceable because we can't replace him for what we'd sell him for... unlike the woeful Lescott.
Unlike Lescott, he hasn't been tapped up — yet. at least there is no concrete bid to date.
If not jumping in with both feet is a tactic, then it's one that has been employed by just about every employee since time began. That he isnt closing his mind to everything else, doesnt mean he wants out.
Have a little faith.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/sport/duncanwhite/100007837/bosmania-william-gallas-and-joe-cole-head-long-list-of-quality-free-transfers/
You'd think we might snatch up one or two of these perhaps ... YADM who would you want that you could actually afford to pay?
Joe Cole not necessarily would break the bank, yes, obviously he would be the highest earner at the club, but we'd cover that in any transfer fee we get if Pienaar goes.
You obviously take an interest in continental football; me too, but I think you are in danger of overlooking what we already have. Pienaar is top draw.
Pienaar is not top draw. Arteta is. Pienaar is a very good player but he does not shoot nearly enough and his final ball is often very questionable for someone with so much obvious skill.
Modric is pure class and would get into any team in Europe. Pienaar wont go for anywhere near what Modric did. We would be lucky to get £12m for Pienaar so I agree it's not really worth selling but we will have no choice once again.
Modric would not get into any team in Europe. Who, for instance would Barcelona drop to fit him in? In fact, Modric was very poor in the game last night. Spurs could not get a grip at all of the midfield and started to play long balls which was admittedly effective in the end.
The ball was being won regularly by Crouch and Huddleston and laid off for Modric and he constantly gave it away. He had three shots, one a fair attempt saved by Gomes and two into the upper tiers. Not very impressive at all. He is a very good player but no better than Pienaar in my view but he is a bit younger which may make him more of an asset on paper. But paper doesn't win footy matches.
Anyway I'm bored of talking about Modric as he isn't a blue! My view is, I could not care a less whether Pienaar stays or goes. But for fuck's sake just get it sorted asap either way. He is no Arteta and no players is bigger than the club as we all know. I trust Moyes will do the right thing.
But I wanna re-iterate... I want Pienaar to stay, I do not want him to leave. I certainly agree that he is top drawer... I'm just saying he can be replaced if need be.
Sorry other Dave, Modric is a better player. He wouldn't be linked with £30 million bids to Utd if he wasn't
Don't get me wrong, he's a good player, and he really stepped up to the plate when we needed someone to provide a bit of creativity during Arteta's injury lay off. However, he is not as vital to Everton's future hopes as Arteta and Fellaini ( the only two players on the books who even get close to being considered world class) and he is certainly not irreplaceable.
As for the Pienaar V Modric debate? Both are a bit lightweight for my liking, but i think Modric is a class above.
You are right of course Rooney and Messi are "top drawer" and when you speak about top drawer Midfield players you think Xavi, Inesta, Lampard and I suppose you would have to include Gerrard. For me, Pienaar belongs in this category, he would slot into any team in the world — including Barcelona — and their football would still flow.
Far from all of Europe pursuing Modric, hardly any of the top teams bid for him, that's why he ended up with a team that finished 7-8th last season. A good player, but if people want to talk about goalscoring records per appearance my money would be on Pienaar... and don't forget he came into a struggling team in the first half of season. If you watch Everton regularly, you will know Modric is a couple of drawers below Pienaar. Stephen Parrish, said it better than me
If they really have have offered £30m for Modric (and I doubt it) on the basis of the above... what the fuck does that prove!?
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1 Posted 05/05/2010 at 14:39:20
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