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Could we have been braver?
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We won a dull game against Pompey with a 94th minute stunner from Billy and finish with an 11-game unbeaten run. But did we miss the opportunity to learn more about our squad for next season?
We know and have seen plenty of Distin this season, so why not see what Duffy or another fringe player could offer? Baxter got to watch another game from the bench. We know what Osman can do so why not give Baxter a real go?
Also what are the thoughts on Arteta being captain? I'm not sure but if he can be inspired and inspire others to raise their game. Neville is not in my opinion an automatic pick and therefore shouldn't be captain next season.
Martin Clark, Posted 11/05/2010 at 12:31:52
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I would like to see Heitinga as captain. He's strong, and he seems to be outspoken with the other lads, and he's got age on his side. I think he would be an excellent choice.
Martin, you didn't really think Moyes would be brave enough to play a couple of kids against the mighty Portsmouth did you? Even against a depleted team, he never had the guts.
Yes we could.
We had NOTHING to gain or lose from this game except our 'unbeaten run' (PAH!)
I thought we should have played as many young lads as possible (plus Coleman who I would never have lent out).
It was never going to happen with DM though.
I like Moyes as a feller and given his budget and our board, I try and resist giving him 'down the banks'.
However, I believe deep down there's an ingrained Presbyterian/Methodist individual.
I don't mean religiously more... um... philosophically.
Safe, always safe.
I imagine he's big on things like...
"Aw things in moderation, son!".
"Never a borrower or a lender be".
I can an picture him saying to Baxter, "Oh whit a tangled web we weave, when feerst we practice tae deceive".
They're admirable qualities for a bank clerk or someone with their own Tweed clothing business, but I believe limiting when it comes to football.
We had NOTHING to gain or lose from this game except our 'unbeaten run' (PAH!)
I thought we should have played as many young lads as possible (plus Coleman who I would never have lent out).
It was never going to happen with DM though.
I like Moyes as a feller and given his budget and our board, I try and resist giving him 'down the banks'.
However, I believe deep down there's an ingrained Presbyterian/Methodist individual.
I don't mean religiously more... um... philosophically.
Safe, always safe.
I imagine he's big on things like...
"Aw things in moderation, son!".
"Never a borrower or a lender be".
I can an picture him saying to Baxter, "Oh whit a tangled web we weave, when feerst we practice tae deceive".
They're admirable qualities for a bank clerk or someone with their own Tweed clothing business, but I believe limiting when it comes to football.
Why? What would it prove? What did we learn from the Bate game? Nothing.
Doesn't have anything to do with "guts" in trying to keep a unbeaten run going and having the paying fans watch the team that have started to play nice football again.
What possible good would it do putting Duffy or Agard on the pitch for one game at the end of the season?
"Brave enough"??? Staggering!
Doesn't have anything to do with "guts" in trying to keep a unbeaten run going and having the paying fans watch the team that have started to play nice football again.
What possible good would it do putting Duffy or Agard on the pitch for one game at the end of the season?
"Brave enough"??? Staggering!
I agree with you on making Arteta Captain. Heitinga Vice captain.
Definitely Heitinga as captain - much more aggressive/shouty/pushy than Mikel.
The attitude of Heitinga prior to the derby match said it all for me - along with THAT tackle when 4-1 up to Hull....everyone else was coasting
The attitude of Heitinga prior to the derby match said it all for me - along with THAT tackle when 4-1 up to Hull....everyone else was coasting
Just because someone is aggressive does not make them a better Captain. Arteta has always let his football skills do the talking and would be a perfect role model.
Tony J Williams, if you ask those questions, chances are you'll never understand the answers (believe it or not, I DON'T mean that in a snotty way, but you either see it or you don't)
But never let it be said I didn't try.
You ask...
"What possible good would it do putting Duffy or Agard on the pitch for one game at the end of the season?"
What 'GOOD'?
Well given this was a game where NOTHING was at stake (no league position, no europe etc) it would have been one (more) game for them.
To feel more a part of things, to add to their 'games played' list.
To maybe score a goal or a first goal.
To run out to Z-cars, to boost their confidence, to make them feel part of the team, to allow them to show off to their friends and family, to get their picture in the Echo or shoot.
To send them into the summer-break having had the chance to 'get on'
To feel like Everton players.
Like I suggested, it takes a little imagination to see.
(as I say NOT a criticism, but either you see it or you don't).
You also ask "What did we learn from the Bate game?" then answer your own question with 'nothing'.
Really?
Nothing AT ALL?
Bet Moyes didn't think when they came off "Well that was a waste of time - I'm absolutely none the wiser"
But here's a question for you - What possible HARM would it have been putting Duffy or Agard on the pitch for one game at the end of the season?
An unbeaten run?
Well there's no guarantee of any result in any game, so that's kind of irrelevant (and nobody is suggesting he should have put out the youth side)
As for the 'paying fans' I know a few of fellers who were hoping he'd 'give the young fellers a run out'.
And I didn't hear anyone say "this unbeaten run is REALLY important, we need our best side out on Sunday" - nobody!
But anyway, he didn't play them so you got your way, so why not tell us what YOU learned?
Let me guess - with the side Moyes picked, we won a close scrappy game but it was close and we could have drawn...or lost.
Well that was illuminating wasn't it!
But never let it be said I didn't try.
You ask...
"What possible good would it do putting Duffy or Agard on the pitch for one game at the end of the season?"
What 'GOOD'?
Well given this was a game where NOTHING was at stake (no league position, no europe etc) it would have been one (more) game for them.
To feel more a part of things, to add to their 'games played' list.
To maybe score a goal or a first goal.
To run out to Z-cars, to boost their confidence, to make them feel part of the team, to allow them to show off to their friends and family, to get their picture in the Echo or shoot.
To send them into the summer-break having had the chance to 'get on'
To feel like Everton players.
Like I suggested, it takes a little imagination to see.
(as I say NOT a criticism, but either you see it or you don't).
You also ask "What did we learn from the Bate game?" then answer your own question with 'nothing'.
Really?
Nothing AT ALL?
Bet Moyes didn't think when they came off "Well that was a waste of time - I'm absolutely none the wiser"
But here's a question for you - What possible HARM would it have been putting Duffy or Agard on the pitch for one game at the end of the season?
An unbeaten run?
Well there's no guarantee of any result in any game, so that's kind of irrelevant (and nobody is suggesting he should have put out the youth side)
As for the 'paying fans' I know a few of fellers who were hoping he'd 'give the young fellers a run out'.
And I didn't hear anyone say "this unbeaten run is REALLY important, we need our best side out on Sunday" - nobody!
But anyway, he didn't play them so you got your way, so why not tell us what YOU learned?
Let me guess - with the side Moyes picked, we won a close scrappy game but it was close and we could have drawn...or lost.
Well that was illuminating wasn't it!
Arteta is our best player but he's not a captain in my opinion. I think we should leave him to do his stuff. I don't see him as a great talker, either giving out bollockings or geeing players up.
I would have Jagielka or Heitinga or Cahill as captain ahead of him, but I do think the squad respects Neville as captain and would leave him as first choice. Cahill said so much this week, he also seems to have a close relationship with Moyes so he is the ideal go-between between the players and the manager.
I also would have liked to see some young players given a run out — it could have given them a real incentive going into next season. If they don't play in a game like this, they never will...
You are right Eugene. Tony, the Bate game taught us little because the changes were drastic. Two changes, say Duffy and maybe Baxter would have been a worthwhile experiment. David Moyes must be bold next season. If not, what are his ambitions? Give it a go... or go.
Of course we could have, and probably should have given them a run out.... but was anybody really surprised ? DM was as predictable as ever. Wonder if it's going to be the same next season?
Good list Eugene but I am pretty sure the contracts they have signed have already made them feel part of the team or like an Everton player. You are listing the good for their profile but again if Moyes sees them in training every day and doesn't think they are ready for the Premier League, why force it?
The Bate game was a prime example, Everton came out and let people know there would a team full of kids but against Pompey, why put players in that have yet to play? just to prove to some fans that he is "brave enough" to do so...rubbish. Yes, a nothing game but apart from giving a young lad a day in the sun it is meaningless.
You suggest I don't understand the answer, I do, I get it, he could have given some kids a game but I was responding more in kind to the stupid comments in suggesting that Moyes is lacking in guts because he never put on a few kids in a meaningless game. Can you imagine the postings on here if we did try something different and we lost to the bottom side in the league, I bet even Marshy would be back to take that one on.
The Bate game was a prime example, Everton came out and let people know there would a team full of kids but against Pompey, why put players in that have yet to play? just to prove to some fans that he is "brave enough" to do so...rubbish. Yes, a nothing game but apart from giving a young lad a day in the sun it is meaningless.
You suggest I don't understand the answer, I do, I get it, he could have given some kids a game but I was responding more in kind to the stupid comments in suggesting that Moyes is lacking in guts because he never put on a few kids in a meaningless game. Can you imagine the postings on here if we did try something different and we lost to the bottom side in the league, I bet even Marshy would be back to take that one on.
It's this type of unadventure that worry many including me about Moyes. Next season, there'll be no more excuses — he's put the pieces in place. Will he know how best to use them?
Neville will still be captain in 8 years time. Oh and Kenwright will still be chairman in 8 years time too, as after 16 years of searching 24/7 he has still had no joy.
Tony, it's not 'guts' that is my problem with Moyes, it's imagination or rather lack of it. That simple.
Definitely, two or three youngsters getting a real taste of first team action is a good move but not a Moyes move.
I like Heitinga for captain, but I don't think he needs the armband to be a leader, he'll do that stuff anyway. Therefore I'd give it to Jagielka. I wasn't at the game so correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt Arteta is particularly vocal, I'd rather he was free just to play.
Coleman is benefiting immensely from his loan spell, it's turning out to be a really good move. Hopefully he'll get to run out at Wembley in what some claim is the most valuable match in world football. That's got to be better than playing against a relegated Portsmouth who don't give a shit.
I like Heitinga for captain, but I don't think he needs the armband to be a leader, he'll do that stuff anyway. Therefore I'd give it to Jagielka. I wasn't at the game so correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt Arteta is particularly vocal, I'd rather he was free just to play.
Coleman is benefiting immensely from his loan spell, it's turning out to be a really good move. Hopefully he'll get to run out at Wembley in what some claim is the most valuable match in world football. That's got to be better than playing against a relegated Portsmouth who don't give a shit.
Have to agree with Mike, the Coleman loan looks to be paying dividends. Perhaps this may also be a better long / medium term option for the likes of Duffy & Baxter rather than the odd cameo end-of-season appearance against an already relegated Portsmouth side.
Agreed Mike and Brendan. He's really looking the part at Blackpool. The run across the area before setting up a goal on Saturday was excellent. Undeservedly booked for showing a bit of committment in retrieving the ball as well. Now a huge Wembley final. Great experience.
My big problem with Moyes is also that he never has the guts to blood youngsters.
Just ask James Vaughan or Victor Anichebe or Wayne Rooney or Tony Hibbert or Peter Clarke or Jack Rodwell or Dan Gosling - or even Wallace, Duffy, Coleman and Baxter who have all made their debuts under Moyes.
Mind you we won - so what the fuck else you all going to moan about, eh?
Just ask James Vaughan or Victor Anichebe or Wayne Rooney or Tony Hibbert or Peter Clarke or Jack Rodwell or Dan Gosling - or even Wallace, Duffy, Coleman and Baxter who have all made their debuts under Moyes.
Mind you we won - so what the fuck else you all going to moan about, eh?
Never said anything about guts or that Moyes doesn't blood youth as Everton have got a fair reputation for it and is the reason why some youths choose our Acadamy over others.
I was asking if others thought that a chance had been missed. I'm a big fan or Moyes and not one for getting at his decisions. I was interested to know how he felt about the prospects of our reserves like Duffy and Baxter, to see if he believed they are good enough to be considered as options for next season making our squad a little bigger.
I guess he believes their not ready!
I agree with you Mike Allison, about Heitinga, he wouldn't change his game and someone like Jags make lift his.
I was asking if others thought that a chance had been missed. I'm a big fan or Moyes and not one for getting at his decisions. I was interested to know how he felt about the prospects of our reserves like Duffy and Baxter, to see if he believed they are good enough to be considered as options for next season making our squad a little bigger.
I guess he believes their not ready!
I agree with you Mike Allison, about Heitinga, he wouldn't change his game and someone like Jags make lift his.
It was Colin Potter who made the daft comment Martin, not you.
Captain Phil is Davey`s right arm — both on and off the pitch — and is likely to remain so for a long time yet. So much of the credit for our second half of the season success is down to his return and the inspiration he provides.
As far as blooding youngsters is concerned, the manager obviously doesn`t think they are yet up to it and who would be bold enough to question his judgement? The man is a recognised genius!
Mark Stone.
In answer to your question - "so what the fuck else you all going to moan about, eh? - I'll go for people like yourself 'moaning' about people posing legitimate questions and making completely reasonable suggestions, on a website (presumably) designed for exactly that.
And people like you who state the bleeding obvious like - "Just ask James Vaughan or Victor Anichebe or Wayne Rooney or Tony Hibbert or Peter Clarke or Jack Rodwell or Dan Gosling - or even Wallace, Duffy, Coleman and Baxter who have all made their debuts under Moyes" - with a triumphant gusto usually reserved for the discovering a cure for...something horrible.
Your 'point' seems to be Moyes has blooded some youngsters so don't DARE criticize.
Well that's THAT then 'eh'?
Er, no it isn't.
It's black and white twaddle
Why not go into WHEN and HOW and WHY they were blooded?
Did he play them coz there was nobody else available?
Did he bring them on coz there was 10 mins to go and we were three up?
Did he play them coz they were 'ready'?
Did he play coz them coz it was a nothing tie in a cup competition when we'd already qualified for the next stage and he wanted to rest players?
Did he play them because a first team player wasn't performing?
The thing is you COULD be right, but when you put things in that simplistic 'I win!' way, you'll always be wrong.
To remind you - a few of us think that on Sunday, we (Everton) could have POSSIBLY gained a little (nb: not much, but a little!) by playing two or three of the fringe players.
It didn't happen and some (nb: not me) suggest this was due to a lack of guts on Moyes part.
Some (nb: me) suggest it didn't happen to due to a lack of imagination on Moyes part.
I believe Moyes is a good man and a decent manager but lacks the imagination to be a great manager and Sunday's team choice, in a game that had nothing resting on it, was an indication of that.
And by the way, everyone putting a contrary view to your own is not having 'a moan', they just see things differently to you.
In answer to your question - "so what the fuck else you all going to moan about, eh? - I'll go for people like yourself 'moaning' about people posing legitimate questions and making completely reasonable suggestions, on a website (presumably) designed for exactly that.
And people like you who state the bleeding obvious like - "Just ask James Vaughan or Victor Anichebe or Wayne Rooney or Tony Hibbert or Peter Clarke or Jack Rodwell or Dan Gosling - or even Wallace, Duffy, Coleman and Baxter who have all made their debuts under Moyes" - with a triumphant gusto usually reserved for the discovering a cure for...something horrible.
Your 'point' seems to be Moyes has blooded some youngsters so don't DARE criticize.
Well that's THAT then 'eh'?
Er, no it isn't.
It's black and white twaddle
Why not go into WHEN and HOW and WHY they were blooded?
Did he play them coz there was nobody else available?
Did he bring them on coz there was 10 mins to go and we were three up?
Did he play them coz they were 'ready'?
Did he play coz them coz it was a nothing tie in a cup competition when we'd already qualified for the next stage and he wanted to rest players?
Did he play them because a first team player wasn't performing?
The thing is you COULD be right, but when you put things in that simplistic 'I win!' way, you'll always be wrong.
To remind you - a few of us think that on Sunday, we (Everton) could have POSSIBLY gained a little (nb: not much, but a little!) by playing two or three of the fringe players.
It didn't happen and some (nb: not me) suggest this was due to a lack of guts on Moyes part.
Some (nb: me) suggest it didn't happen to due to a lack of imagination on Moyes part.
I believe Moyes is a good man and a decent manager but lacks the imagination to be a great manager and Sunday's team choice, in a game that had nothing resting on it, was an indication of that.
And by the way, everyone putting a contrary view to your own is not having 'a moan', they just see things differently to you.
As a season ticket holder who has paid a fortune for his ticket and travelled a fair few miles, I want to see our 11 best players playing. Not the youth team/ressie team.
Also, I feel it's better to continue our unbeaten run at home than play kids who in my eyes don't appear to be all that good and potentially lose. It gives great confidence for the start of next season.
Also, I feel it's better to continue our unbeaten run at home than play kids who in my eyes don't appear to be all that good and potentially lose. It gives great confidence for the start of next season.
In my opinion, get Coleman back. As much as Everton supporters like Hibbert for similar reasons as Arsenal supporters like Eboue, we need to be more direct and have players that can attack without having to stop and play the ball sideways or backwards.
In Martin Clark's original post, he asked..
"...so why not see what Duffy or another fringe player could offer?"
24 posts later we have Ryan Holroyd's..
"I want to see our 11 best players playing. Not the youth team/ressie team".
TEAM!?
Sorry but how the fuck does one get from one or two players to a team!?
Stick around, I have a feeling it won't be long until someone is angrily posting..
"This suggestion about us playing some of the ladies team in the first team on Sunday against Portsmouth is crazy and...blah blah"
(what are people reading!?)
"...so why not see what Duffy or another fringe player could offer?"
24 posts later we have Ryan Holroyd's..
"I want to see our 11 best players playing. Not the youth team/ressie team".
TEAM!?
Sorry but how the fuck does one get from one or two players to a team!?
Stick around, I have a feeling it won't be long until someone is angrily posting..
"This suggestion about us playing some of the ladies team in the first team on Sunday against Portsmouth is crazy and...blah blah"
(what are people reading!?)
In answer to your question - "So what the fuck else you all going to moan about, eh? - I'll go for people like yourself 'moaning' about people posing legitimate questions and making completely reasonable suggestions, on a website (presumably) designed for exactly that.
I never moaned, where did I moan — I may have mocked, and I may have belittled — but never did I moan. Furthermore, you can criticise all you like — I'm not suggesting you can't — but when someone states that Moyes doesn't have the guts to blood young players I will question that emphatically.
Incidentally, in response to your latter comments, a couple of fringe players DID start on Sunday (Anichebe and Rodwell) and another fringe player came on as a sub (Bilyaletdinov). Another sub was the Yak, desperately in need of match time and even more in need of goals.
Lastly, when and if Duffy and Baxter are ready to play in the Premier League for Everton they will get more and more chances — as has been the case with Rodwell and, as was the case with those before him. Moyes has proven his ability to sensibly introduce young players as and when they are ready.
I never moaned, where did I moan — I may have mocked, and I may have belittled — but never did I moan. Furthermore, you can criticise all you like — I'm not suggesting you can't — but when someone states that Moyes doesn't have the guts to blood young players I will question that emphatically.
Incidentally, in response to your latter comments, a couple of fringe players DID start on Sunday (Anichebe and Rodwell) and another fringe player came on as a sub (Bilyaletdinov). Another sub was the Yak, desperately in need of match time and even more in need of goals.
Lastly, when and if Duffy and Baxter are ready to play in the Premier League for Everton they will get more and more chances — as has been the case with Rodwell and, as was the case with those before him. Moyes has proven his ability to sensibly introduce young players as and when they are ready.
Tony J;
I stand by my remarks about last Sunday because his tactics, if you can call them that, in many a match bear my remarks out. Maybe Eugene's word (imagination) is a more suitable one, but to me it all boils down to the same thing.
I stand by my remarks about last Sunday because his tactics, if you can call them that, in many a match bear my remarks out. Maybe Eugene's word (imagination) is a more suitable one, but to me it all boils down to the same thing.
Eugene, how dare you. You have made a, slightly, negative comment about the greatest manager in the history of this club.
The fact that he kept Baines on the bench and played Lescott out of position was brilliance. Playing Arteta wide on the right was another masterstroke. Jagielka as a holding midfielder, yes another example of tactical genius. Osman wide right, spot on again. Neville in midfield, superb.
However, I'm happy to be proved wrong and the loan of Seamus Coleman to Blackpool has been a success. I was utterly opposed to it but maybe it will provide us with a top class right back next season.
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1 Posted 11/05/2010 at 14:56:07
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Would also be interested to hear thoughts on Arteta as Captain... never got to see the game but for me I think he is a natural leader and would be my choice in the future. Feel it will still be Neville next season and his leadership ability is singled out by every new player we recruit.