We get better results when our two most creative players are both on the pitch. No surprises there; as you say, Phil, just goes to show how pivotal they are to our long term plans.

I think most Evertonians know the value of both of these players, although I have been very surprised to hear that some Evertonians seem to think that Pienaar would be easily replaced.

With the news that Fabregas looks like he is heading for Barca, don't be surprised if Arsenal come knocking for one or both players. Let's be honest, they both play the Arsenal way so why wouldn't Wenger be interested. If Fagregas goes, he will have plenty of money to spend and both players have a very good pedigree in the Premier League.

I have that sinking feeling and for me it's a very strange close season this one. Instead of wondering who we are going to buy, I am more concerned about hanging on to what we have got. It's widely acknowledged that Man Uld, Arsenal and Chelsea, not to mention Man City are all short by some by four or five players. I can't help thinking that it is just a matter of time before they come knocking on our door.

Aston Villa are under pressure for their best players, with Martin O'Neill already trying the old 'hands off' routine. The trouble is that, if Champions League teams want your players, then there is not much that you can do, apart from haggle over the best price. I think it's going to be a long close season.

Hardly scientific.

Rather meaningless stats aside... It's obvious that Arteta is our most influential player... did we actually see a bad game from this season?

If we lost him, I'd be gutted; if we lost Pienaar, Ii'd be reasonably miffed at his posturing... but not overly concerned about replacing him — he's a decent player... but he's not god. Arteta is.

I think you would need to dig a little deeper with your stats there. You don't state the results with Arteta missing and Pienaar separately.

Similar to the above post really. I would be devastated if Arteta left. Pienaar not so much. After his "if god wills me to return" comment, I would be happier if he was sold to be honest! Arteta is integral to everything that is good about EFC.

Let's not also forget Bily out-scored Pienaar in very minimal game time.

Phil — personally I'd like to see the stats on how many Everton won with just Pienaar, against just Arteta, compared to those with both and those without either....

Ciarán, Arteta was very very ropey in his first 2 games back. Small point — but needed making.

The effect of Arteta's absence was self-evident. The effect of Pienaar's... well, anyone at the Stoke game away, will tell you. Both are vital to Everton prospering.

How much money does a God-fearing midfielder need per week, by the way? Camels and eyes of needles spring to mind.

I hope that they're both with us next season.

Ray,
You are thinking of a different god. This is the beat-your-missus, drive-around-drunk god. A different kettle of metaphysical fish.

Arteta's influence I feel is a bit more obvious than Pienaar's. Arteta gets you goals (perhaps 10 or 12 a season if he stays fit) and consistently gains assists. His central role in midfield means he sees more of the ball and has perhaps greater dictatorship over our play.

Pienaar doesn't score as many goals (although that's changed somewhat this season because of Arteta's absence) and won't get as many assists. But that is not to say he is not as important. I feel he brings a calmness to Everton's play and encourages others around him to play the same way that he does — on the ground, passing and moving.

If either go, they will be major losses. The more of this type of player we have, the better!

I think when Arteta was missing we did much better from corners with Baines and Pienaar taking them from opposite corners and actually beating the first man.

And, as I've said before, Pienaar's replacement is already among us, so we must keep hold of Arteta.

On the flip side... should we mange to get through the summer unscathed whilst the others mentioned above swap players, then we could indeed come out on top!!! Milner to United, Fabregas to Barca, City buying everyone and not gelling again, DJ Smack and Ladyboy leaving the RS.

I know I'm starting to get delusional but you never know... this time next year, we could be millionaires!!!

I posted after the Blackburn game with a similar article but just focused on Arteta. With him we won 6, drew 1 & lost 1, compared to drawing 3 without him. As most people, I believe Arteta is the one we must keep & keep fit.

Let's hope at least one of them is here next season. If not, then we will notice the difference!!!

Interesting stats, Phil. I agree another flair type player is needed in the squad. I reckon Moutinho is well outside our budget. The papers are claiming Petrov is on Moyesie's radar. I'd be happy with that. He's a real decent player; he would not expect to start over Pienaar and Arteta... He will be free as he is out of contract and is a short term solution to the squad... and who knows — with a 4th place finish we can actually start affording the Moutinhos of this world.

If Petrov is genuinely on Moyes's radar he's got to be planning that Pienaar's off hasnt he?

I'll take it if we get a decent price for Peanuts (£12m+) and invest in a QUALITY RIGHT WINGER as well as Petrov. Needs must...

If fully fit, I'm expecting Miky to be talismanic for us next season, here's hoping any way.

What is it about statistics, and damn lies?

Let's be blunt here; at various stages of the season, the absence of different players is considered against results before and after, and thus the importance thereof. I could make the case for all of the players influence (well, maybe not Hibbert), especially the likes of Phil Neville and Tim Cahill, where there is a resulting loss of team form.

But the bottom line is this; the statistics will show that Everton win more games when their better players are available. Shock, horror...

Personally, I'd like to keep Arteta (although I understand he must be very melancholy watching the World Cup and wondering if he'd only been at a top 4 club...). I don't mind so much about Pienaar. I think he could be one of our best players, but I don't like him delaying his contract till after the World Cup. We all know what that means. I'd rather he went now — a bit like I'd rather the earth was imploded by a black hole than Craig Bellamy pull on the blue shirt.

Gareth, of course Arteta was ropey on his first two games back. They Yak has been ropey full stop. (As I thought he would be.) Jags has not been at his best either. I reckon it will be Christmas before Fellaini will be anything other than ropey. We have got a few players who are permanently ropey.

Sorry, I meant to add, we have a coach and chairman whose partnership is decidedly ropey.

Interesting, can we compare 29 games to 9 games. Not the most equal of comparison's now is it.

Better not let you lose in a lab!

The point I was getting at (but failed badly!) was that its only when we get these two together at the same time that the whole dynamic of the team seems to change. Two players who are comfortable with the ball even when surrounded by opposition players. Two players with the ability to draw players onto them before providing a good pass under pressure. This allows our other players much more space, and our attack becomes more potent. This effect is reduced greatly when only one of them play.

Ossie is good at this too, but does give it away much more often. I don't look at it as "Who's better out of Mickey and Pienaar?" (Micky for what its worth), I'm saying it's having TWO of these in the same midfield that makes all the difference. That's why it's crucial we keep them, and add to them to cover for injuries. Finding a third player as good as these two will test Moyes's famous knack for spotting a gem to the limit!

Post 17:

I know I am detracting from the argument a bit here, BUT.... would Arteta being at a top 4 team truely make a big difference? Just a thought, Fabregas isn't a regular after all. I am not sure how much Spain will play on his mind in deciding whether or not to stay at EFC.

How do we judge the capabilities of an attacking midfielder? Is it on goals scored? What about assists? Or do we just go on gut feelings?

Looking at quick figures since his arrival in the 04-05 season, Arteta has scored 23 league goals and laid on another 67. In the same time period, Tim Cahill has scored 45 league goals and laid on 29. Leon Osman has scored 24 league goals and laid on 34 for teammates. In a period 2 years shorter, Stevie P has scored a measly 8 league goals but he has laid on a respectable 30.

So there it is :Mikkel Arteta is the best goal provider and the best goal scorer of the ball players, unsurprisingly everyone's favourite bull in a china shop is way ahead on goals from midfield.

But how accurate are these stats. Of his 67 assists Mikkel Arteta has managed only 30 from open play, the rest have come from corners and free kicks, compare this to Piennar with 26 from open play (remember he has played 86 league games compared to Arteta's 113), and even Osman has 24, and some people on here rate him as crap.

With goals scored it is even stranger. Arteta has scored only 8 league goals from open play, in the same time period Leon Osman has scored 18, Peanut has scored 6.

What this suggests to me is that Mikkel Arteta is not the attacking midfielder in the squad, I do believe he is the best passer of the ball, and my eyes tell me that a lot of what we do well goes through him at some point, but I believe he needs to sit deeper than Peanut and Ossie, they are the more direct players, they are the real attacking threat, feeding off the cute balls that Arteta plays forward. Yes they lose the ball more than Mik, but that is to be expected when you are running at players.

As I have read though this, I have started to think that with Mikky playing alongside Screech behind Peinnar, Ossie and a hopefully refreshed and improved Bily, with Timmy on the bench ready to attack a tiring defence later in the game, we will be a real attacking force, and with better service the Yak will start to score again.

Steve, who cares if a goal comes from open play or not?! A goal is a goal! Arteta and Pienaar are very different players but one thing is for sure, Arteta is irreplaceable on our budget. Pienaar is not.

Petrov would be a very welcome addition by the way if that's true. Top class winger.

I don't think that Arteta is going anywhere, his good mate Cahill just re-signed so I think that Arteta will sign an improved contract. Pienaar is gone and he will be hoping (as should we) that he stars in the World Cup so we can get as much cash as we can for him. Anyway, that's my take on it. Missing watching Everton already.

Post 19, Jimmy Saville, now then, now then, now then!
Maybe you could fix it for him?


Sorry couldn't help myself

Pienaar can be replaced as he's but an attacking option.

Arteta gone... we're fcuked. He's the heartbeat to our side and bloody well cornerstone to our formation. The game's played over 90+ mins and most of the time it's jostling for space and positions in the middle of the park. Arteta cleans up a lot of crap passes by our own players, including Pienaar's.

The evidence is there to see and any of us who have watched our beloved Everton this season already knew and could see where you are coming from.

The problem though (as I see it) is now out of our control as Pienaar is looking to "sell himself" in the WC shop window. Why else would he not sign a new improved deal now, like Tim Cahill? Peanuts will go (his head has already gone) and I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up at Tottenham or another European team that can offer him CL football which he has made clear on previous occasions he craves.

I just hope the saga doesn't stretch out and become acrimonious like the Lescott affair last summer which then had a knock-on effect to the start of our season.

Who would we replace him with? — that's a difficult one.

I don't think being at a top four side would've helped Arteta get into the Spanish side. Spain are fairly settled in midfield and only injuries to key players would've given him a chance.

I don't think Arteta will leave. I believe the players must be fairly excited about how the later part of the season went and would be thinking about the possibility of it carrying on next season.

Pienaar I am not so sure about. I too hope he stays but you'd have thought Everton would've offered what they could already and that isn't likely to change; I feel he's putting himself in the shop window. If this is the case, we should have contingency plans. Petrov on a free could be a blinder, no matter if Pienaar goes or stays we should get him in.

We need to get a decent figure for Pienaar to get a good enough replacement (possibly Ben Arfa or Eden Hazard) but then they'll take time to settle in.

Best senario is that Pienaar's God is a blue!

Isn't Petrov available on a free this summer? If so, he'd be a great replacement for Pienaar and we would then have cash to spend elsewhere in the team... ie, Landon Donovan with some left over.

Sorry, James, I disagree; goals from penalties are not the same as goals from open play, free kicks are a bit better but a goal from open play still says more about a player's ability.

If DM had chosen Timmy to take all of the penalties and Pienaar to share free kicks with Bainesy, then Arteta's goal tally would be poor.

Pienaar can go. Don't care. Get Moutinho and Petrov. Both better IMO anyway. Pienaar makes neat a tricky runs but his final ball is normally lacking and his shooting leaves a lot to be desired (except that chip against the Arse). Not worth £60k per week.

I think Landon isn't going to happen. He has just signed a new deal and is the best player in their league, and Moyes isn't going to spend £15-20mil on him becuase, in all honesty, he isn't worth that much.

According to this article:

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12876_6162492,00.html

Magic Mikel's representation, rather than to act in a manner in which to line his own pockets, is looking out for his client. I for one would like to shake this man's hand.

We have had a raw deal with agents in the past but finally our luck seems to be changing. I'm just wondering if Ibanez would like a new client becuase Pienaar clearly needs a new agent!!

Arteta hasn't been our regular penalty taker since his arrival though. He has taken it on after others have missed a few (Saha, Yakubu, Johnson etc). I do somewhat agree with what you are saying but not the way you have manipulated the facts to favour Pienaar.

A fair few of Arteta's goals have come from direct free kicks which is the hardest skill to master there is. Pienaar's goals tally is pretty poor in my opinion for a player who spends so much of his time in and around the box. Bily scored just as many in a poor season by his standards. Pienaar is our player of the year apparently and still did not outscore Bily or even Cahill.

Good player, yes... but very replaceable. He will never be worth more than he is right now.

Forget statistics.

Just watch them play.

They are both undoubtedly good players and I wouldnt want to lose either especially as they know the way we play and there's no guarantee a top class player will come in and setlle into "The Everton Way" quickly.

It is worrying that we are being linked with enquiries for Veloso and Mouthino as that would seem to suggest we are thinking about cashing in on Pienaar or Rodwell.

However no player is bigger than the club it's just the disruptive effect once again.

I'm a bit concerned with these two being linked away all the time, as well as Jags and Rodwell. I know it's silly season but it's never happened this frequently.

As with most of the posters, I'd say Arteta is one of our most important players, and Pienaar not too far behind. Martin Clark posted 28 said Eden Hazard as a replacement. He's only young and already looks fantastic. Let's just say if Pienaar leaves and we get him, I would be happy.

If Arteta leaves, I'd guess we go for Moutinho or Defour.

Just to bring something else in, does anyone think Arteta would do as well as Pienaar in the left? It's neither of their natural positions.

James, I wasn't intending to favour Pienaar, all I was saying is that the stats can be misleading, if anything, they favour Ossie.

The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't be trying to promote Arteta as an attacking midfielder, the stats don't support it.

We have all seen him play and he is a great player, but he is of more value sitting deeper feeding the likes of Pienaar, and Ossie, who can the feed the strikers, and dare I say Timmy.

Fair enough Steve I thought that was the angle you were taking. As for Arteta sitting deep I think that has always been his best role. Arteta and Fellaini would not waste the ball and I can't wait to see them play together. Arteta is best instigating things your right. He is also very useful arriving late around the box as he can finish very well. I really don't care about Pienaar but the club should have learnt it's lesson from last year. If he wants out just get rid and have done with it. It could potentially disrupt our summer.

In the Telegraph, there is mention of who could take Fabregas's place in the Arsenal side if he does go to Barcelona. The article by Alan Smith, one time striker at Arsenal, mentions four possible players and Mikel Arteta is one. The other Miralem Pjanic, Lyon; Eden Hazard, Lille; and Javier Pastore of Palermo, are all youngsters.

He says that David Moyes will not thank him for putting the little Spaniard's name forward, but at 28, he has the experience of the Premier League, and Wenger does rate him. I personally think it won't happen. But then we are talking football and stranger things have.

James - post 33 - agree mostly and he is definately replacable - although IF and there is a chance as host nations have shown before, South Africa have a good world cup, his value will soar.

OK - now seriously I never normally listen to idle gossip re transfers - BUT

My mate (FC Untied Player) was in Hamburg last week - playing agains Klasnic, who was on loan at Bolton last season. After the game, they spoke for some time and Klasnic stated that Everton had begun negotiations about a possible transfer. Bolton want to keep him but the fee may be an issue.

Not sure how I feel about this — he looked OK at Bolton... but is he what we need up front??

I've heard from a very reliable source that David Bentley is in talks with Everton. Presumably that means someone will be heading out of the door which worryingly might be Pienaar or Arteta. Personally I would prefer Pienaar to go. Brilliant but doesn't love the club like Arteta, Cahill, etc.

Both Pienaar & Arteta have been invaluable to Everton in recent seasons but I'm of the opinion that, once a player starts making noises about leaving, then they should immediately be shown the door. The Lescott saga showed that at the end of the day the player holds all the aces.

Sure, Moyes's defiance contributed to the inflated fee & maybe the smart move is to fight tooth & nail & hold out for the biggest fee but, once a player's head is turned, I would rather say thank you & fuck you & bring in replacements who want to play for this club instead of bribing shitbags to stay where their outrageous talent is stifled (not to mention undervalued) by the club that turned them from anonymous nobodies into highly desirable assets.