The Mail Bag
Tough talking Moyes
Comments (80)
I know we have another thread talking about Pienaar, but after 126 responses it has mainly descended in arguing semantics over who said what (which I do like reading). However, in order to move the discussion on I wanted to make TWers aware that the line has been drawn in the sand over the saga by Moyes.
I am aware that TWers have suggested that Moyes should put a figure out in the press in order to 1. Sell the player or 2. Scare off potential suitors – well he has. The consequences for Pienaar, who in my opinion is holding the club to ransom for a £60k+ a week deal, is that he either signs the contract on the table which he previously rejected or he better start learning cockey as ‘Appy ‘Arry is likely to be his new boss.
Personally I think this is the way we should do business and it is a positive move and a marked improvement on last year's debacle with Lescott and a sign that lessons have be learnt – we won’t be pushed about by club or player. The sad news for Everton fans and TWers is that Pienaar has probably played his last game for us. Article below.
“Everton boss David Moyes wants a stunning £15million for contract rebel Steven Pienaar - as Tottenham chief Harry Redknapp sizes up a bid. The South Africa World Cup star has failed to agree a new deal at Goodison and looks set to quit in the summer with the Toffees reluctant to lose him for nothing in a year.
But hard-bargaining Moyes is looking for a huge sum for the hard-working midfielder who is in Redknapp's sights as he looks for a left-sided player to add to his glory-chasing squad.
Pienaar has left his future on Merseyside clouded in doubt by heading for the finals in his homeland without any sign of an extended stay in the offing. Now Moyes, who held out for top dollar for Joleon Lescott when Manchester City came calling, will dig in to get the best valuation for highly-rated Pienaar.
Liverpool have also shown an interest, but Spurs are clear favourites. Redknapp is expected to offer players in part exchange, but Moyes will be reluctant to have anyone he does not want pushed into the move.”
Thomas Christensen, Posted 26/05/2010 at 09:58:38
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David Bentley plus £5 million would be a good deal. This would value Pienaar around £10 million which would be about right for a non-scoring midfielder!!
Bentley, Jenas — two players who maybe Moyes could revive the careers of.
As far as I can see Moyes hasn't actually said anything.
Eh Sean.....? David Bentley plus £5m...?
That idiot Lawro actually came up with some sense the other day, just cos he's SA's best player and they are the hosts doesn't mean he or the country will have a good WC, they are a very poor team and may well not do anything despite home advantage. So here's hoping he has a crap WC and comes home, tail between legs and signs the contract that's been on offer.
I like Bentley and Jenas... (I like Lennon and Huddlestone more!) they would be decent squad additions. Bentley does not have the pace we all want to see on the right though, never did the other more famous DB any harm though I suppose.
I like Bentley and Jenas... (I like Lennon and Huddlestone more!) they would be decent squad additions. Bentley does not have the pace we all want to see on the right though, never did the other more famous DB any harm though I suppose.
Lots of people are banging on about Moutinho again as a replacement for Peinaar and that's fine beacuse he is a good player but he is no replacement as he plays in the middle where we are reasonable well stocked with Fellaini, Arteta, Osman, Cahill, Rodwell, Heitinga, Neville, Bily all able to play there (admittedly some not first choice).
Pavlechenko and Bentley = Deal
(Bily) put in good word to Pav
"David Bentley plus £5 million would be a good deal. This would value Pienaar around £10 million which would be about right for a non-scoring midfielder!! "
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I'm struggling with this one....
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I'm struggling with this one....
Unless you're A) Steven Pienaar or his agent; or B) David Moyes or the Everton team brokering a deal.... you don't actually know what's going on.
This is a classic case of an agent holding out and playing poker face with a club to get the best deal for his player, which is their job. I've got every confidence he will sign on and if he doesn't then we get a large fee. For once, it is the club who are dictating the play!
Who says Moyes wants a stunning £15m? It is that usual "insider" that is never, ever named?
Odd post... we have no idea if Moyes has drawn a line in the sand. Sean - I hope you're not a football agent and if you are, I bet Redknapp would love to deal with you!
Michael, of course the article is speculation and the fee may or may not be true - that is not the point here. Having done a bit of work reporting on F1 in the recent years I am aware that a code of conduct amoungst the reputable reports, and that a story (whether true, false or libellous) will not be published without the approval from the source and the editor. Now I'm not saying David Moyes himself agreed to the publication or indeed offered a quote, but I am sure someone within the club knew about it and didn't stop it.
Now if you think about that and the people who would have given that information out in the first place, we should perhaps consider who did. I doubt Tottenham or Liverpool would, as potential suitors. Possibly or Pienaar agent, but why do that, it might put at risk a potential move before negotiations have started. This leads us back to the club and people within the club. The point is not the value touted it is more the message it sends to potential suitors and Pienaar.
As I said, I wanted this thread to reflect the latest state of the saga (fantasy of the silly season as you say) - but a line has been drawn by the club and it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.
Rooney - Moyes himself admitted they've moved on and grown-up since the Rooney deal.
Of course I do not know Alan Nixon personally, and I'm sure he has published the odd porkie (this could be another), but he certainly wouldn't have done so without motivation or substance - that would simply risk his job and credibility.
Now if you think about that and the people who would have given that information out in the first place, we should perhaps consider who did. I doubt Tottenham or Liverpool would, as potential suitors. Possibly or Pienaar agent, but why do that, it might put at risk a potential move before negotiations have started. This leads us back to the club and people within the club. The point is not the value touted it is more the message it sends to potential suitors and Pienaar.
As I said, I wanted this thread to reflect the latest state of the saga (fantasy of the silly season as you say) - but a line has been drawn by the club and it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.
Rooney - Moyes himself admitted they've moved on and grown-up since the Rooney deal.
Of course I do not know Alan Nixon personally, and I'm sure he has published the odd porkie (this could be another), but he certainly wouldn't have done so without motivation or substance - that would simply risk his job and credibility.
It's obvious Pienaar has been offered around £60k a week which is around the top level we as a club pay the top earners. SP has requested more than this and we have said no and that's why there's a stand-off.
If he thinks he can get more elsewhere, I say sell him and get decent money for him. Give Arteta the world to sign his contract with the money made from Pienaar and I'm happy.
If he thinks he can get more elsewhere, I say sell him and get decent money for him. Give Arteta the world to sign his contract with the money made from Pienaar and I'm happy.
Bentley + £5 million isn't as bad as people sounds. It depends how much money we have. If we have zilch, then NO, because £5 million isn't enough to spend on a replacement for Pienaar.
If we had money, then maybe consider it. People forget how good Bentley was, he's shown it in glimpses in Spurs (against us notably in the Cup this season!!) and at Blackburn.
Moyes is as good as man manager as I've ever seen. If he can bring Bentley as good as he has been about 2 seasons ago, then he has that right wing spot sorted. It's hard to deny that.
Some exchange deal might be a good idea with Spurs seeing they have some midfield depth already. Maybe Kranjcar? I think Harry's planning to replace him with Pienaar anyway.
If we had money, then maybe consider it. People forget how good Bentley was, he's shown it in glimpses in Spurs (against us notably in the Cup this season!!) and at Blackburn.
Moyes is as good as man manager as I've ever seen. If he can bring Bentley as good as he has been about 2 seasons ago, then he has that right wing spot sorted. It's hard to deny that.
Some exchange deal might be a good idea with Spurs seeing they have some midfield depth already. Maybe Kranjcar? I think Harry's planning to replace him with Pienaar anyway.
Journalist codes of practice mean didly-squat.
And anyway, there is no requirement to verify a source as fact. If that was the case papers would be very thin.
This may be true, it may equally be bollocks.
And anyway, there is no requirement to verify a source as fact. If that was the case papers would be very thin.
This may be true, it may equally be bollocks.
Ben (14), if a deal does take place, I think Harry will be offering Robbie Keane!!
Ben — from memory Spurs paid £17m for Bentley.....
"Bentley + £5 million isn't as bad as people sounds. It depends how much money we have. If we have zilch, then NO, because £5 million isn't enough to spend on a replacement for Pienaar."
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I think the problem is the valuation it puts on Bentley...
Spurs aren't known for taking hits on the sale of players..
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I think the problem is the valuation it puts on Bentley...
Spurs aren't known for taking hits on the sale of players..
Thomas (3)... "... a story (whether true, false or libellous) will not be published without the approval from the source and the editor."
DId you really just write that?!?!
Worse still, do you really, honestly, truely BELIEVE that?!?!
If so, please explain to me why 99% of the stories we track in our Rumour Mill turn out to be absolute 100% lies?
Thomas, I'm afraid you have been duped.
DId you really just write that?!?!
Worse still, do you really, honestly, truely BELIEVE that?!?!
If so, please explain to me why 99% of the stories we track in our Rumour Mill turn out to be absolute 100% lies?
Thomas, I'm afraid you have been duped.
Do you think happy 'arry will offer Kyle Naughton to us as part of the deal 12 months after stealing him from under our noses?
(So how many games and opportunities did you get at Spurs Kyle?....... what!!!! ...... you're languishing on Teeside now on loan to Middlesboro and not getting a regular game?!)
Funny old game football.
And Thomas, I don't think I got as far as this gem on the first reading:
"Of course I do not know Alan Nixon personally, and I'm sure he has published the odd porkie (this could be another), but he certainly wouldn't have done so without motivation or substance - that would simply risk his job and credibility."Have you really not been following along these last few years? How many pieces of absolute shite has Alan Nixon spouted about us, and players we were either going to sign or lose?
"... he certainly wouldn't have done so without motivation or substance..."He's got motivation alright.... IT'S HIS JOB!!!!
I'd go for Robbie Keane out of the Spurs squad; he'sgot a bit of pace and works hard, has an eye for goal except when playing for the shite - which made me like him even more.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Pienaar play out his contract. We're a far better team with him in it, even if Arteta's playing. Plus he'd be playing for his last chance at a big move, so he should be firing.
Remember Gravesen in his last year? And when Moyes arrived, he let a lot of players' contracts run down to the last year and unless I'm very much mistaken, the year that 6 or 7 first teamers were out of contract was the year that we made 4th spot?
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Pienaar play out his contract. We're a far better team with him in it, even if Arteta's playing. Plus he'd be playing for his last chance at a big move, so he should be firing.
Remember Gravesen in his last year? And when Moyes arrived, he let a lot of players' contracts run down to the last year and unless I'm very much mistaken, the year that 6 or 7 first teamers were out of contract was the year that we made 4th spot?
Good analysis, Richard... and you're dead right about Gravesen, pissed me off a bit at the time as it was obvious that was what his form was really all about.
Personally, I think the club will say "Sign or sell!", they can't afford to see £5-£10m go begging on the off-chance he plays a blinder for a season.
Personally, I think the club will say "Sign or sell!", they can't afford to see £5-£10m go begging on the off-chance he plays a blinder for a season.
I think the club only has space for a certain number of players on £60k/week and we are at our limit hence why we can't offer Pienaar £60k. I wonder if Yak leaves that frees up a spot for Pienaar? (I have absolutely no knowledge of how it works but thought it sounded plausible.)
Richard (23) - "I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Pienaar play out his contract. We're a far better team with him in it, even if Arteta's playing. Plus he'd be playing for his last chance at a big move, so he should be firing".
This is the position I agree with if we can't sign Pienaar to a new contract. I know players come and go, but this season next is a big one for us and having Pienaar in the club will help. Yes, even if he then leaves on a free transfer.
We have a side to challenge for the Top and Pienaar should be a part of that. If he has to go, he has to go. But I'll leave that to Moyes. All things equal, let's give a little pay raise for his last season so he and his agent save face.
Start of the season, we go at the league full speed. Pienaar (unless he's determined on financial suicide) has no choice but to give his all for the team, since it relates directly to his contract ambition for 2011-12.
Plus, who knows? Raising the Trophy will generate money. Winning tends to do that. Maybe we re-sign him. If not, we had him 3+ years on the cheap and he helped us move up the Table. God bless and best of luck, you twice-arrested, drunken, woman-beater. Praise Jesus!
This is the position I agree with if we can't sign Pienaar to a new contract. I know players come and go, but this season next is a big one for us and having Pienaar in the club will help. Yes, even if he then leaves on a free transfer.
We have a side to challenge for the Top and Pienaar should be a part of that. If he has to go, he has to go. But I'll leave that to Moyes. All things equal, let's give a little pay raise for his last season so he and his agent save face.
Start of the season, we go at the league full speed. Pienaar (unless he's determined on financial suicide) has no choice but to give his all for the team, since it relates directly to his contract ambition for 2011-12.
Plus, who knows? Raising the Trophy will generate money. Winning tends to do that. Maybe we re-sign him. If not, we had him 3+ years on the cheap and he helped us move up the Table. God bless and best of luck, you twice-arrested, drunken, woman-beater. Praise Jesus!
Michael (1, etal) - Keep us on point regarding the truthfulness of what gets out in the press. Have to admit, though, it keeps the conversation going here. And, it's kind of fun, bullshit and all.
Yup agreed, Bentley's valuation is the factor, I do doubt it would take place.
Keane wouldn't be a bad bet, especially if Yakubu has decided to join in with Avram.
I think an exchange deal with Spurs is the most likely though. I can't see how they will stump for a player with a year left in his contract. I know Pienaar is good but he ain't worth £15 mil with a year left.
Keane wouldn't be a bad bet, especially if Yakubu has decided to join in with Avram.
I think an exchange deal with Spurs is the most likely though. I can't see how they will stump for a player with a year left in his contract. I know Pienaar is good but he ain't worth £15 mil with a year left.
He should sign or go, the stance from the club is realistic. They have offered what they can and it isn't enough and isn't likely to change. Even though Pienaar was a bargain, we don't have the financial strength to write off a possible ₤10-15mil.
I can't see him coming back from the World Cup having a bad campaign to sign the same contract as he'll most likely feel a little embarrassed, and the only improvement Everton could possibly afford is to add Bill Kenwright's parking spot into the deal!
I'd prefer him to stay, but it looks more and more likely that we can't afford him and we don't want this continuing all summer, giving little time to find a suitable replacement.
I can't see him coming back from the World Cup having a bad campaign to sign the same contract as he'll most likely feel a little embarrassed, and the only improvement Everton could possibly afford is to add Bill Kenwright's parking spot into the deal!
I'd prefer him to stay, but it looks more and more likely that we can't afford him and we don't want this continuing all summer, giving little time to find a suitable replacement.
I think Spurs would be more than happy to offer Robbie Keane in any potential deal for Pienaar. The question is, has Keane still got what it takes to cut it in the PL? David Moyes knows what the player has done in the past but is there still anything there to work with in the future?
Everton cannot afford to take on "passengers". Although there are no guarantees in this game, we need to be confident that any acquisition is coming to us knowing that they have a job to do and not just to pick up the money before finishing their career.
Do you think if Keane did come to us he'd use the same welcome speech as he did at Celtic and the RS?.................."This is a dream move for me.....I've always wanted to play for XXXX" (Fill in what ever team pays my salary...)
For the record, I'd take Pienaar over Keane any day of the week and think DM and Everton should do everything they can (within reason of course) to make sure Peanuts wears the royal blue jersey next season.
Everton cannot afford to take on "passengers". Although there are no guarantees in this game, we need to be confident that any acquisition is coming to us knowing that they have a job to do and not just to pick up the money before finishing their career.
Do you think if Keane did come to us he'd use the same welcome speech as he did at Celtic and the RS?.................."This is a dream move for me.....I've always wanted to play for XXXX" (Fill in what ever team pays my salary...)
For the record, I'd take Pienaar over Keane any day of the week and think DM and Everton should do everything they can (within reason of course) to make sure Peanuts wears the royal blue jersey next season.
James, if he does play out his contract, blinding season or not, we should not give him any sort of pay rise.
A pay rise for not signing a contract?? Can't understand why you would. If he wants a pay rise that much he already has two options, sign up or leave! I hope he signs as a settled side may avoid such crappy starts to the season we've been having.
"Let's give a little pay raise for his last season so he and his agent save face."
James - are you on drugs?
Also, trust me, having a player in the club that wants away will not help.
It's simple, we put to him what we think he's worth, he takes it or leaves it, if he's not interested we sell him to the highest bidder.
James - are you on drugs?
Also, trust me, having a player in the club that wants away will not help.
It's simple, we put to him what we think he's worth, he takes it or leaves it, if he's not interested we sell him to the highest bidder.
Indeed Mike,
It seems for all James's experience of pro-sports contracts he doesn't understand that it's a little more complicated than simply giving him a 'little pay raise'...
I don't know whether he's advocating just giving him some money out of the kitty for no reason whatsoever... or whether he's advocating giving Steven what he wants.
Either way, it's a rather throw-away comment.
It seems for all James's experience of pro-sports contracts he doesn't understand that it's a little more complicated than simply giving him a 'little pay raise'...
I don't know whether he's advocating just giving him some money out of the kitty for no reason whatsoever... or whether he's advocating giving Steven what he wants.
Either way, it's a rather throw-away comment.
Michael - you are missing the point. Not every article is entirely true (you even copy and pasted my writing on that) but 100% every story has a motive - the article copied above on the Pienaar saga is clearly from the club saying two things.
1. To suitors, he is valued and won't be cheap;
2. To Pienaar and agent, you are available to move.
It isn't about ALAN NIXON making up a story or a £15m valuation. As Executive Editor I would have expected you most of all to know this. I appreciate you probably do accept this and are arguing for the sake of it - I guess that is fair enough.
1. To suitors, he is valued and won't be cheap;
2. To Pienaar and agent, you are available to move.
It isn't about ALAN NIXON making up a story or a £15m valuation. As Executive Editor I would have expected you most of all to know this. I appreciate you probably do accept this and are arguing for the sake of it - I guess that is fair enough.
"but 100% every story has a motive"
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Yes, that would called filling column inches... and selling papers.
The article is NOT from the club — it is from Alan Nixon... it is simply your presumption that the source is from the club, that the source is reliable and that it was purposely designed to cement Everton's position in these negotiations..
Journalists make things up — and a huge degree of circumspection is required. Sorry to spoil your fantasy, Thomas.
I'm not arguing for the 'sake of it' either... I merely think your point is guesswork and I'm merely pointing out this fact.
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Yes, that would called filling column inches... and selling papers.
The article is NOT from the club — it is from Alan Nixon... it is simply your presumption that the source is from the club, that the source is reliable and that it was purposely designed to cement Everton's position in these negotiations..
Journalists make things up — and a huge degree of circumspection is required. Sorry to spoil your fantasy, Thomas.
I'm not arguing for the 'sake of it' either... I merely think your point is guesswork and I'm merely pointing out this fact.
"Journalists make things up " I just don't bally believe it!!!
I would love a rival paper to go to another columist with a camera and ask him who his source is and how he got this so called scoop. It won't happen of course as they would do it right back.
I think journos use the old three hat trick. one hat for players, one for teams and the final one with valuations. It's all rubbish journalism.
I would love a rival paper to go to another columist with a camera and ask him who his source is and how he got this so called scoop. It won't happen of course as they would do it right back.
I think journos use the old three hat trick. one hat for players, one for teams and the final one with valuations. It's all rubbish journalism.
Please, people, understand: We have learnt from last & previous seasons. The lesson learnt is never trust your players & other clubs.
When a player in conjunction with another club attempt to undermine EFC, put your top price on him; if they still have the nerve & guille to purchase him — be our guests.
Well done Davey... lesson learnt!!
COYBs
Couple of things.
There is no way we have offered him £60k a week because I don't think any Everton player is earning that much. I imagine Arteta/Cahill are on £40k as top earners and have been offered/signed to go to £45k. Pienaar is probably on £20k (originally signed as a squad player with the permanent contract already negotiated as part of the loan deal that brought him here). Everton have probably offered him parity with the club's top earners — so £45k. He is probably heard (via his agent) that he can get £65/70k at Spurs and CL football.
There is no way we have offered him £60k a week because I don't think any Everton player is earning that much. I imagine Arteta/Cahill are on £40k as top earners and have been offered/signed to go to £45k. Pienaar is probably on £20k (originally signed as a squad player with the permanent contract already negotiated as part of the loan deal that brought him here). Everton have probably offered him parity with the club's top earners — so £45k. He is probably heard (via his agent) that he can get £65/70k at Spurs and CL football.
Peanuts loves it at Everton, so he is saying, "Give me £60k and I'll sign". There is probably a clause in Arteta's and Cahill's contracts guaranteeing them parity with the top earner, so the club genuinely can't afford to offer £60k as it is a rise of £45k a week in total outgoings.
If we sell him, we have to replace him and Bentley isn't the answer because he doesn't have Pienaar's pace. We have to hope that Moyes gets the free transfers in that he wants, so he can put all of the current kitty towards Landon Donovan and free up all of the generated income to replace any departures with like-for-like or better (in the case of Yakubu). If we lose Peanuts and don't get Donovan and Beckford, we have NO pace in the side at all.
If we replace Pienaar with pace, get Donovan and Beckford, we will have bucket loads of pace, great technical players and (hopefully) goals up front. We will be a threat!
This is how it should've been handled:
Peinaar's agent:- "My client has instructed me to request that you resolve his contract before the World Cup starts."
Moyes:- "Don't worry mate, it has been resolved. The greedy bastard's on the transfer list, now fuck off."
Peinaar's agent:- "My client has instructed me to request that you resolve his contract before the World Cup starts."
Moyes:- "Don't worry mate, it has been resolved. The greedy bastard's on the transfer list, now fuck off."
Pienaar:- "Suits me, Davey lad, I`ll sit tight for nine months and get myself an even better deal. You (Everton) on the other hand will get FA."
Nice one, Dave Lynch — you really put Pienaar in his place there...
Nice one, Dave Lynch — you really put Pienaar in his place there...
Since when does Pienaar have 'pace'?
Not sure whats funnier.
The fact that Pienaar`s agent is holding the gun, but you guys wanna make the threats, or the suggested replacements for Pienaar.
David Bentley? DAVID FUCKEN BENTLEY?
We have been screaming to see on-the-carpet football for years / decades even... and to play an attractive passing game, movement is absolutely paramount; without it, it simply isn't possible.
MOVEMENT MOVEMENT MOVEMENT, that's the key, Barca`s passing isn't better than everyone else's — their movement is, don't you get it?
The fact that Pienaar`s agent is holding the gun, but you guys wanna make the threats, or the suggested replacements for Pienaar.
David Bentley? DAVID FUCKEN BENTLEY?
We have been screaming to see on-the-carpet football for years / decades even... and to play an attractive passing game, movement is absolutely paramount; without it, it simply isn't possible.
MOVEMENT MOVEMENT MOVEMENT, that's the key, Barca`s passing isn't better than everyone else's — their movement is, don't you get it?
Pienaar's movement is as good as anybody's, ask yourself why we have played attractive football without Arteta and without Fellaini, but NEVER without Pienaar? His movement is infectious... and you want David Bentley? The man strikes a decent ball ok but he`s a fucken statue.
Why don't we go the whole hog and ask for Peter Crouch? At least Jagielka's balls wont all be wasted.
Alasdair, oul Jonny H is the highest paid player at the club according to the reports when he signed last season. I think hearing that Mido was playing for West Ham for a few hundred quid last season, Blue Bill has opened talks with representatives.
I did, didn't I, Dave.
Diplomacy has always been my strong point.
Diplomacy has always been my strong point.
Dave Lynch - brilliant :D
Dave Wilson - Moyes:- "Fine, we'll see how much a week you'll get after not kicking a ball for 12 months".
Dave Wilson - Moyes:- "Fine, we'll see how much a week you'll get after not kicking a ball for 12 months".
Mike Green;
Pienaar: "Again fair enough Davey, If the Yak can be offered a big payday by West Ham and Mikky can have Citeh sniffing around wanting to double his money after both have been sidelined for a year with serious injuries, I`ll have no problem gettig my money doubled for merely keeping myself ticking over for nine months"
"By the way, Davey, when you're paying me to do sweet FA — MONEY YOU CAN OBVIOUSLY AFFORD TO SQUANDER — don't ask me to fill in during an injury crisis, I`ll either be in negotiations with future employers or I`ll develop the same niggling injury AvdM had when he was taking the piss out of you."
Your threat carries all the menace of an April shower, Mike. Dont take up hostage negotiations FFS.
Pienaar: "Again fair enough Davey, If the Yak can be offered a big payday by West Ham and Mikky can have Citeh sniffing around wanting to double his money after both have been sidelined for a year with serious injuries, I`ll have no problem gettig my money doubled for merely keeping myself ticking over for nine months"
"By the way, Davey, when you're paying me to do sweet FA — MONEY YOU CAN OBVIOUSLY AFFORD TO SQUANDER — don't ask me to fill in during an injury crisis, I`ll either be in negotiations with future employers or I`ll develop the same niggling injury AvdM had when he was taking the piss out of you."
Your threat carries all the menace of an April shower, Mike. Dont take up hostage negotiations FFS.
Moyes:- "Suit yourself. Crewe Reserves v Everton Reserves tonight. Your playing. Keep sharp, some nasty things can happen on those piches at night. Enjoy rehab and MOTD. Goodbye."
Kenwright — "FFS Davey, you and your fucken principles, now we`ve got no player and we're having to pay him.
Wish to fuck I had principles, because when YOU were holding the club to ransom over YOUR contract, I`d have fucked you off. It's hard enough finding £3M a year to pay you, The last thing I need is for you to keep creating AvdM situations."
"There goes any new signing, Pienaar's getting his wages"
Moyes — "Doh!"
Pienaar — "Give us a shout when me pay cheque's ready will you? ... there's a nice chap."
Wish to fuck I had principles, because when YOU were holding the club to ransom over YOUR contract, I`d have fucked you off. It's hard enough finding £3M a year to pay you, The last thing I need is for you to keep creating AvdM situations."
"There goes any new signing, Pienaar's getting his wages"
Moyes — "Doh!"
Pienaar — "Give us a shout when me pay cheque's ready will you? ... there's a nice chap."
I' tell you what's funnier Dave... the fact that you still haven't produced that quote from the agent... you know, the one you based your 'logical inferences' on...
Any chance?
Any chance?
Ah CIarán - The Belfast matador
I saw the interview on Sky Sports yesterday morning, not sure how I can produce that.
But while you are on, I repeatedly asked you to name these people who you claimed "act in the club's best interest" You skillfully side stepped the issue every time.
Plan on evading the point until it goes away?
I saw the interview on Sky Sports yesterday morning, not sure how I can produce that.
But while you are on, I repeatedly asked you to name these people who you claimed "act in the club's best interest" You skillfully side stepped the issue every time.
Plan on evading the point until it goes away?
"Ask yourself why we have played attractive football without Arteta and without Fellaini, but NEVER without Pienaar?"
-------------------------
Sorry, Dave.... remind me where Pienaar was during the Chelsea match again?
-------------------------
Sorry, Dave.... remind me where Pienaar was during the Chelsea match again?
"I repeatedly asked you to name these people who you claimed "act in the club's best interest". You skillfully side-stepped the issue every time."
--------------------
No you didn't. You made a loose point... you didn't ask me anything of the sort.
But as you 'kind of' asked this time... .those trying to get Pienaar to sign a contract for what we can afford are the ones working in the club's interest on this occasion... rather obvious, I would have thought.
--------------------
No you didn't. You made a loose point... you didn't ask me anything of the sort.
But as you 'kind of' asked this time... .those trying to get Pienaar to sign a contract for what we can afford are the ones working in the club's interest on this occasion... rather obvious, I would have thought.
Moyes:- "Dont worry about it Bill, I'm officially on the market too then. You'll get £5m compensation if lucky for which you'll get fuck all. Good luck."
What have you done Dave Lynch?!?! By crawling up Pienaars arse you've cost us our fucking manager!!!! FFS to yourself.
What have you done Dave Lynch?!?! By crawling up Pienaars arse you've cost us our fucking manager!!!! FFS to yourself.
Erm... I mean Dave Wilson, apologies Dave Lynch.... hahaha :D
By the way..here's SKy's latest copy on the Pienaar saga...
Are you sure you didn't mishear his words?
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12876_6170787,00.html
Are you sure you didn't mishear his words?
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12876_6170787,00.html
Jesus Christ, where the hell did all that come from?
Erm I'm guessing that was a dig at me Dave to suggest Bentley as a replacement? I was suggesting him on the right wing, and to buy a replacement on the left.
Though I do think you're over exaggerating Pienaar's ability just a tad, you're right about his movement and yeah, you're spot on about Barca's movement and all that, it is important, and Everton do have a lack of it.
I'd only accept a pacy replacement for Pienaar, perhaps younger and potential to be better than him would be nice. But with the right wing situation, Bentley's good for different reasons, his technique is brilliant. He's the closest thing to Beckham there is at the moment.
As well as lack of movement, final delivery hasn't been always the best for us. Bentley can help sort that.
I'm not saying he's a must, but if we do any kind of exchange deal with Spurs then Bentley plus cash isn't a bad shout.
Like I said, Moyes's man management brings the best out of players, I mean look at what he did to Pienaar. A Bentley 2 years ago would get that right wing spot sorted, and I still stand by that.
Erm I'm guessing that was a dig at me Dave to suggest Bentley as a replacement? I was suggesting him on the right wing, and to buy a replacement on the left.
Though I do think you're over exaggerating Pienaar's ability just a tad, you're right about his movement and yeah, you're spot on about Barca's movement and all that, it is important, and Everton do have a lack of it.
I'd only accept a pacy replacement for Pienaar, perhaps younger and potential to be better than him would be nice. But with the right wing situation, Bentley's good for different reasons, his technique is brilliant. He's the closest thing to Beckham there is at the moment.
As well as lack of movement, final delivery hasn't been always the best for us. Bentley can help sort that.
I'm not saying he's a must, but if we do any kind of exchange deal with Spurs then Bentley plus cash isn't a bad shout.
Like I said, Moyes's man management brings the best out of players, I mean look at what he did to Pienaar. A Bentley 2 years ago would get that right wing spot sorted, and I still stand by that.
Ben's right. Bentley would make a very credible player for our right...for me he's better than Donovan.
I think Dave's just 'poo-pooing' any suggested and realistic targets because he's been so vehement on keeping Pienaar. To be honest I'm struggling to figure out what he wants the club to do.
I think Dave's just 'poo-pooing' any suggested and realistic targets because he's been so vehement on keeping Pienaar. To be honest I'm struggling to figure out what he wants the club to do.
A good deal from Spurs would be Keane + £5m.
Then we could sell Yak for £8m and Vaughan for £1m and spend the £14m on Donovan (£6m) plus either Ben Arfa or N'Zogbia for the left hand side. If one of those was available for £10m we would have a total net outlay of £2m. Assuming we can get Ledley and Beckford for nothing we end up with...
GK - Howard, Mucha, Ruddy
RB - Neville, Coleman, Hibbert
CB - Jagielka, Heitinga, Yobo, Distin, Duffy
LB - Baines
CM - Fellaini, Arteta, Rodwell, Osman, Ledley
WM - Bilyaletdinov, Ben Arfa/N'Zogbia, Donovan, Anichebe, Baxter
SS - Cahill
CF - Keane, Saha, Beckford
That squad would challenge for 3rd!
Then we could sell Yak for £8m and Vaughan for £1m and spend the £14m on Donovan (£6m) plus either Ben Arfa or N'Zogbia for the left hand side. If one of those was available for £10m we would have a total net outlay of £2m. Assuming we can get Ledley and Beckford for nothing we end up with...
GK - Howard, Mucha, Ruddy
RB - Neville, Coleman, Hibbert
CB - Jagielka, Heitinga, Yobo, Distin, Duffy
LB - Baines
CM - Fellaini, Arteta, Rodwell, Osman, Ledley
WM - Bilyaletdinov, Ben Arfa/N'Zogbia, Donovan, Anichebe, Baxter
SS - Cahill
CF - Keane, Saha, Beckford
That squad would challenge for 3rd!
Ha Ha Mike
Dave Wilson - "FUCK ME, BILL! I didn't think you regarded my opinion so highly!"
BK - "I wish I`d never fucken listened to you, I`ve got no manager and I`m paying a player for doing nothing."
Dave Wilson - "FUCK ME, BILL! I didn't think you regarded my opinion so highly!"
BK - "I wish I`d never fucken listened to you, I`ve got no manager and I`m paying a player for doing nothing."
I dunno Alistair, I'd prefer Bentley.
I only say that, because, with the system we play, Keane is more of a second striker, I can't see him playing as the lone frontman at all. If it was 4-4-2 then great, I'd rather him, but I can't see Moyes having Keane to replace Cahill, I'd rather Billy replace him on the long run.
Ben Arfa and N'Zogbia aren't the worst shouts to replace Pienaar though.
I only say that, because, with the system we play, Keane is more of a second striker, I can't see him playing as the lone frontman at all. If it was 4-4-2 then great, I'd rather him, but I can't see Moyes having Keane to replace Cahill, I'd rather Billy replace him on the long run.
Ben Arfa and N'Zogbia aren't the worst shouts to replace Pienaar though.
Sorry Ciaran, I didn't quite get that... Who are these people? What are their names ?
So if not Keane as a lone-forward — who could replace Yak?
A target man with good strength and a good first touch (a link man) but who could also provide goals!?? I can't think of anyone in our price bracket? Unless Moyes knows about the next Drogba already. Perhaps the WC will throw someone up. Any ideas?
I can't see Bentley. I wanted him for a while as I think he has underperformed at Spurs, but been brilliant everywhere else. I just don't think he's quick enough for our current requirements. He has got a good delivery on him, but Bily will be doing that for us next season. Donovan can also cross, so can Baines and Arteta. I think what we will lack (if Pienaar goes) is raw pace on the counter. Someone else who could score goals like the one at Arsenal last season.
A target man with good strength and a good first touch (a link man) but who could also provide goals!?? I can't think of anyone in our price bracket? Unless Moyes knows about the next Drogba already. Perhaps the WC will throw someone up. Any ideas?
I can't see Bentley. I wanted him for a while as I think he has underperformed at Spurs, but been brilliant everywhere else. I just don't think he's quick enough for our current requirements. He has got a good delivery on him, but Bily will be doing that for us next season. Donovan can also cross, so can Baines and Arteta. I think what we will lack (if Pienaar goes) is raw pace on the counter. Someone else who could score goals like the one at Arsenal last season.
Ha ha, Dave Wilson :D, nice one, now that really did make me laugh. Very good....! I could almost visualise it.
Steven Pienaar:- "What we going to do now boss....?"
Dave Wilson:- "I dont know son, I'm working on it...." (picking up the directory looking through for the "R's" for "Riquelme")
Steven Pienaar:- "What we going to do now boss....?"
Dave Wilson:- "I dont know son, I'm working on it...." (picking up the directory looking through for the "R's" for "Riquelme")
Nice one, Mike.
Ciarán, That's not the interview, lad... well it is, but it's heavily edited. The interview was much longer and more detailed than that. In the full interview he talks about Pienaar never once complaining despite earning a lot less than other players, I didn't mishear him.
Ben Jones; I didn't read your post, I wasn't having a dig at you.
Ciaran - any chance you could write us a piece for the Mailbag? That'd be great. Make my Bank Holiday Weekend. Go on. Please?
When's the last time Everton were involved in a swap deal?
Swap deals look good on the back pages, but they almost never happen.
Also, can you really imagine Moyes agreeing to take £5m and a Spurs reject for Pienaar?
No.
Swap deals look good on the back pages, but they almost never happen.
Also, can you really imagine Moyes agreeing to take £5m and a Spurs reject for Pienaar?
No.
Ermmm... not too sure I'm afraid Alisdair. At this moment in time the only one maybe worth a punt is that M'bokani from Liege? Strong, good in the air, definite target man, probably more suited in that role than any of our strikers at the moment, just not too sure about the goals.
Basically I think the final straw is hopefully do not sell the Yak, and buy a pacy striker as an alternative. Beckford will do if we have no money.
Basically I think the final straw is hopefully do not sell the Yak, and buy a pacy striker as an alternative. Beckford will do if we have no money.
"In the full interview he talks about Pienaar never once complaining despite earning a lot less than other players, "
-------------------------
Dave,
Yes, happy enough to accept that. Because he's clearly on his first contract..
But that's not what you claimed he'd said...If you need reminded, you said he 'had been offered less than other players like Cahill'..
Are you now changing your mind?
-------------------------
Dave,
Yes, happy enough to accept that. Because he's clearly on his first contract..
But that's not what you claimed he'd said...If you need reminded, you said he 'had been offered less than other players like Cahill'..
Are you now changing your mind?
Eamonn (31) and Martin (32) - Given our legit ambitions in the League next season, I think it's a good idea assuming a long-term deal doesn't happen.
He's been a good fit for the club so far and Moyes seemingly has offered him a pay raise already (likely based on a long-term signing, I know). So they can't agree? Fine. Toss him a few bucks more for one season than offered long-term and let him play out the contract. This will work because:
1. There's no indication he wants out. He wants more money. Certainly, we're not interpreting his agent's predictable, routine public posturing about "pay or move" as Steven throwing down a gauntlet. Need more proof than what we've heard so far.
2. Where would he go? Is anyone aware of some clamor to sign him away from us? From what teams?
He's been a good fit for the club so far and Moyes seemingly has offered him a pay raise already (likely based on a long-term signing, I know). So they can't agree? Fine. Toss him a few bucks more for one season than offered long-term and let him play out the contract. This will work because:
1. There's no indication he wants out. He wants more money. Certainly, we're not interpreting his agent's predictable, routine public posturing about "pay or move" as Steven throwing down a gauntlet. Need more proof than what we've heard so far.
2. Where would he go? Is anyone aware of some clamor to sign him away from us? From what teams?
a. Moyes let's him play out his contract, Pienaar's 30 years old in his first contract year with his new team (How attractive is that)?
b. He has two serious arrests and one conviction while at EFC. (Or that)?
c. Playing his ass off for EFC next season (his walk year) is absolutely, 100% in his own best interest. (Even his "selfish greed" works for the club).
3. The teams that would take him on transfer are likely the very teams we'll be competing against this season coming for honors. So the instant we're subtracting a solid to fantastic (going by comments in here) talent, a major competitor is adding that very same talent? Not good.
Look, I believe (and I'm far from alone here) we can go to the Top this season and we have a better shot with Pienaar on board. Cost EFC a few extra bucks short term? I consider that low risk given the potential long-term returns.
Mike (33) - Taken one at a time:
1. "James - are you on drugs"?
Good ones as a matter of fact. Why?
2. "Also, trust me, having a player in the club that wants away will not help".
Well, he wants more money. Haven't seen anything on wanting away. Related? Yes, but not the same. Personally, I think he wants to stay. Given EFC's potential in the League this season, I think Steven will be a big help. So he makes a few more bucks for one year. It's worth it, given what's at stake for the team. And, again, where is this declaration from him he wants out?
3. "It's simple, we put to him what we think he's worth, he takes it or leaves it, if he's not interested we sell him to the highest bidder".
1. "James - are you on drugs"?
Good ones as a matter of fact. Why?
2. "Also, trust me, having a player in the club that wants away will not help".
Well, he wants more money. Haven't seen anything on wanting away. Related? Yes, but not the same. Personally, I think he wants to stay. Given EFC's potential in the League this season, I think Steven will be a big help. So he makes a few more bucks for one year. It's worth it, given what's at stake for the team. And, again, where is this declaration from him he wants out?
3. "It's simple, we put to him what we think he's worth, he takes it or leaves it, if he's not interested we sell him to the highest bidder".
How about this instead. It's simple, he won't agree long-term but paying him a little more in the short-term will help the club short and long-term.
Moyes has taken us this far on a shoe-string budget. Either we'll stay in the middle-pack/upper-level/feeder team for rich clubs (and start counting down days to Moyes's departure) or we make the one move we know will generate income outside Daddy Warbucks showing up; win the Premier League. We have the team to do so, Pienaar included. Pay him some more while he plays out his contract with the League Trophy in mind. I say worth the short-term investment for EFC and Pienaar will not dare jake it. He has way too much at stake.
"Look, I believe (and I'm far from alone here) we can go to the Top this season."
-------------------------
I think you are alone actually, James.
-------------------------
I think you are alone actually, James.
Ciaran (34) - "he doesn't understand that it's a little more complicated than simply giving him a 'little pay raise'...".
Ah, again grasshopper? Well, let's see what we know:
1. He's been offered an extension since last season and hasn't accepted.
2. He wants more than offered.
3. If an agreement is not reached, he's one year left on his contract at even less money than Moyes is now offering to re-up.
No complications there, right?
So:
1. An agreement is reached and he re-ups long-term.
2. No agreement is reached and he plays out his contract.
Pretty routine, mundane even, doings in the sports world, no? Certainly not complicated. We see it all the time.
So where the complication? No agreement reached and Moyes looks to deal him?
1. Who's chasing after a twice-arrested (on serious charges), once-convicted, solid to irreplacable (based on opinions here, ours included) player approaching 30 years-old and at what price? More importantly, at what benefit to EFC? Some complications there for sure.
2. The teams interested at the asking price are likely teams EFC is competing for honors with next season. A definate complication.
All I'm proposing is a minor wrinkle to what already exists, given how important next season is for EFC.
1. Pienaar has a year left on his contract. Let him play it out. He will NOT screw up his last chance at more money. Repeat, NOT. If he goes through with playing it out, he'll need to have the best season of his career or he's fckd himself. Do you see him doing that? Me neither.
2. Moyes has already offered him a pay raise, a long-term one presumably, but a pay raise nonetheless. I say, cut out the long-term part, up the money somewhat for his last year over what was offered long-term.
Why go through the sell to buy yet again when we don't really have too? That way lies the complication as we've seen and has been complained about repeatedly here. Sell to buy. Sell to buy. Yet again?
Better Pienaar one more season (yes with a pay raise), given what is at stake. What's "a little more complicated" about that.
Ah, again grasshopper? Well, let's see what we know:
1. He's been offered an extension since last season and hasn't accepted.
2. He wants more than offered.
3. If an agreement is not reached, he's one year left on his contract at even less money than Moyes is now offering to re-up.
No complications there, right?
So:
1. An agreement is reached and he re-ups long-term.
2. No agreement is reached and he plays out his contract.
Pretty routine, mundane even, doings in the sports world, no? Certainly not complicated. We see it all the time.
So where the complication? No agreement reached and Moyes looks to deal him?
1. Who's chasing after a twice-arrested (on serious charges), once-convicted, solid to irreplacable (based on opinions here, ours included) player approaching 30 years-old and at what price? More importantly, at what benefit to EFC? Some complications there for sure.
2. The teams interested at the asking price are likely teams EFC is competing for honors with next season. A definate complication.
All I'm proposing is a minor wrinkle to what already exists, given how important next season is for EFC.
1. Pienaar has a year left on his contract. Let him play it out. He will NOT screw up his last chance at more money. Repeat, NOT. If he goes through with playing it out, he'll need to have the best season of his career or he's fckd himself. Do you see him doing that? Me neither.
2. Moyes has already offered him a pay raise, a long-term one presumably, but a pay raise nonetheless. I say, cut out the long-term part, up the money somewhat for his last year over what was offered long-term.
Why go through the sell to buy yet again when we don't really have too? That way lies the complication as we've seen and has been complained about repeatedly here. Sell to buy. Sell to buy. Yet again?
Better Pienaar one more season (yes with a pay raise), given what is at stake. What's "a little more complicated" about that.
James... no offence Mate, but could you elaborate a little on the drugs question? I STILL don't see how giving him a pay rise to play out his contract is of any benefit to Everton. Surely he has his own agenda to play well next season regardless?
Eamonn - Would elaborate but as you might know, our drug laws here are draconian. Let's just say an entire drug cartel close to America's borders (real, real close) has been created from our marijuana laws. Come to think of it, marijuana's not a drug is it? So let me change my answer to your question. No, I'm not on drugs.
Let me say my last thing on the Pienaar situation, since I'm sick of talking about him. First, I think it's a bluff and he'll sign in the end. He doesn't want to leave and where's the queue of top teams forming to take him from us other than in his agent's imagination.
Second, I believe him a good player worth keeping, since I also believe we have what it takes to get to the Top this next season and include Steven in that belief.
Third, if Moyes is going to let him play out his contract, bump his salary up for his last go-round with us. It's no radical notion since Moyes obviously has offered him a pay raise already.
You're right, Steven's under contract and Moyes doesn't have to offer him shit beyond what he's signed for. But, again, if he's budgeted a substantial offer for several years, he can boost his wages a bit next season to keep him happy.
I know that rubs some people wrong. I just think it would be a good idea, given our realistic ambition for next season.
Let me say my last thing on the Pienaar situation, since I'm sick of talking about him. First, I think it's a bluff and he'll sign in the end. He doesn't want to leave and where's the queue of top teams forming to take him from us other than in his agent's imagination.
Second, I believe him a good player worth keeping, since I also believe we have what it takes to get to the Top this next season and include Steven in that belief.
Third, if Moyes is going to let him play out his contract, bump his salary up for his last go-round with us. It's no radical notion since Moyes obviously has offered him a pay raise already.
You're right, Steven's under contract and Moyes doesn't have to offer him shit beyond what he's signed for. But, again, if he's budgeted a substantial offer for several years, he can boost his wages a bit next season to keep him happy.
I know that rubs some people wrong. I just think it would be a good idea, given our realistic ambition for next season.
Mabye we should all get on the drugs. I'm sure we will be come August.
Ha. Come August, we'll be mainlining EFC baby! How high will we get, you ask? As high as the Skipper can hold the League Trophy over his head next May will be quite high enough for me.
James – you could be onto something here.....
I'm on an agreed wage with my employee – it's actually something I signed up to. On Monday I'm going to hand my notice in, tell the boss I'm off next June and see how much he's going to bump up my wages in the meantime to keep me sweet until then.
Wha-hoo!!! We're in the money!!!
Sounds like you're on something a little stronger than a bit of puff mate.
I'm on an agreed wage with my employee – it's actually something I signed up to. On Monday I'm going to hand my notice in, tell the boss I'm off next June and see how much he's going to bump up my wages in the meantime to keep me sweet until then.
Wha-hoo!!! We're in the money!!!
Sounds like you're on something a little stronger than a bit of puff mate.
Sorry, Ciaran, I didn't mishear him and I'm not changing my mind, nor am I changing the question.
These people you refer to, the ones who are acting in the best interest of the club... once again: Who are they?
These people you refer to, the ones who are acting in the best interest of the club... once again: Who are they?
Mike Green - Ha! And if your boss agrees to bump your wages up for that period, how will you feel?
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1 Posted 26/05/2010 at 15:24:28
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1) People are arguing on the other thread because they are desperate to know what's going on but have no real idea what's going on, and end up making what they believe are reasonable or (God forbid) "logical" inferences that are pure fantasy. (Do we never learn nothing?)
2) Part of the problem is people want to believe everything that is published as "fact": It's not.
And so to your piece; Moyes asking £15M... Really? Don't you recall the famous claim that Wayne Rooney wouldn't even be sold for £50M? Oh I guess that one was true in the end: he went for an initial payment of £10M, the rest to follow.
There is a lesson in here, but it's the silly season, and the Pienaar saga has kicked us right into the middle of it.