The Mail Bag
Baines has a summer holiday
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Although it keeps him out of the lime light, what a disgrace that Baines looks to be out of the World Cup squad.
Ok he had a shakey game last week, but why not give Warnock a game on Sunday to make sure he is up for it?
Looking at some of the other rumoured selections, has Capello only picked people who he hasn't played in these friendlies?
Craig Taylor, Posted 01/06/2010 at 13:47:41
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Sky Sports are reporting that Leighton Baines has been left out of England squad for the World Cup.
Is this good or bad news for Everton?
Good news for Everton, definitely!
Neither Baines or Warnock were likely to play ahead of Cole at LB, but whoever goes will be having to train all summer and risks injury before the start of next season!
We don't have cover at Left Back so we need Baines to be well-rested and fresh in time for next season.
Neither Baines or Warnock were likely to play ahead of Cole at LB, but whoever goes will be having to train all summer and risks injury before the start of next season!
We don't have cover at Left Back so we need Baines to be well-rested and fresh in time for next season.
Although I think he got stitched up a bit having that tosser Gerrard deserting his job on the left and then seeing Lennon come in when he should have been given a go with him, his homesick shout was not what a manager wants to hear never mind thousands of hacket t-shirt wearing boo boys.
Unfortunate for Leighton, but hey, when England fail miserably in the quarter finals at least our Leighton won't be on the recieving end of a media bashing and his confidence may remain intact.
Also, it will give him something to prove next season.
The fact that it seems Shaun Wright-Phillips is going and Adam Johnson and Emile Heskey is going, while Darren Bent isn't or the fact that a crocked (emitomy of average) Barry is going shows that England will always be a best mates club.
The England team is essentially the exact same one that failed in the last World Cup. Heck even Beckham would have gone if he wasn't crocked.
Teams that win it generally drop players who perform poorly, no matter what the commercial interests in them are e.g. Ronaldinho dropped from Brazil.
Also, it will give him something to prove next season.
The fact that it seems Shaun Wright-Phillips is going and Adam Johnson and Emile Heskey is going, while Darren Bent isn't or the fact that a crocked (emitomy of average) Barry is going shows that England will always be a best mates club.
The England team is essentially the exact same one that failed in the last World Cup. Heck even Beckham would have gone if he wasn't crocked.
Teams that win it generally drop players who perform poorly, no matter what the commercial interests in them are e.g. Ronaldinho dropped from Brazil.
Heskey! What an absolute joke. There is no possible reason for picking him ahead of Bent etc. The England team are a disgrace and will get embarrassed as they always do once up against a decent team.
Well said Fran, what is different this time? ...apart from the same players being 4 years older.
Why is it disgraceful?
He looked ropey behind Englands preferred midfield.
Christ, some people will use any excuse to get offended.
He looked ropey behind Englands preferred midfield.
Christ, some people will use any excuse to get offended.
It's disgraceful because though he had a bad game, at least he had one. If Capello was worried by that performance, why not play Warnock for at least 20 minutes against Japan. Surely he new A Cole was going!
Clear enough for you Ciaran?
Clear enough for you Ciaran?
Clear enough? Not really no - according to you it's disgraceful because he had a poor game...
That makes little sense to me.
That makes little sense to me.
Ciaran, I'm not offended, I dont give a shinyy shite about England.
And yes, Leighton did play poorly against Mexico, as did Ledley King, Rio Ferdinand, Glen Johnson. Cole was shite, along with Rio and Glen against Japan also.
It just find it interesting, players get picked on reputation not form. Gerrard and Lampard have proven for 6/7 years that they are ineffectual in the same team, yet they still both play, week-in, week-out. The idea of dropping them is seen as laughable, why?
Rio has looked dodgy, he hasn't played all season and yet is picked ahead of Dawson, who has played all season and played very well.
King, despite all the media hype, has a duff knee and shouldn't go. Add to the fact that when played in the same team, Dawson was still the better player, minus the duff knee.
Carragher has his worst season in years, and still gets picked even when he had retired. Heck they even thought about picking Hargreaves, with a grand total of 2 minutes action in 18 months.
Carrick has been very below par, and expect Man U to get shot or bench him. He was awful against Mexico. Yet he is still above the immense, in-form Scott Parker.
And yes, Leighton did play poorly against Mexico, as did Ledley King, Rio Ferdinand, Glen Johnson. Cole was shite, along with Rio and Glen against Japan also.
It just find it interesting, players get picked on reputation not form. Gerrard and Lampard have proven for 6/7 years that they are ineffectual in the same team, yet they still both play, week-in, week-out. The idea of dropping them is seen as laughable, why?
Rio has looked dodgy, he hasn't played all season and yet is picked ahead of Dawson, who has played all season and played very well.
King, despite all the media hype, has a duff knee and shouldn't go. Add to the fact that when played in the same team, Dawson was still the better player, minus the duff knee.
Carragher has his worst season in years, and still gets picked even when he had retired. Heck they even thought about picking Hargreaves, with a grand total of 2 minutes action in 18 months.
Carrick has been very below par, and expect Man U to get shot or bench him. He was awful against Mexico. Yet he is still above the immense, in-form Scott Parker.
Neither Warnock or Baines would have played anyway... so who cares? I really hope the England threads are kept to a bare minimum this summer. I'd rather pointless and vague transfer ones than England ones and that's saying something!
It's Baines' own fault, he probably would have made the cut until he came out and said he gets home sick, hope it was worth it Bainesy. As for Heskey 3 goals in 31 games for Villa last season really says it all, although Darren Bent isn't proven at international level he scored 24 league goals last season (21 more than Heskey), so much for takin the in-form players Mr Capello.
What kind of striker can have a goalscoring record like that and walk into the World Cup squad?
What kind of striker can have a goalscoring record like that and walk into the World Cup squad?
Whatever squad Capello settles on will be debated and disputed. We all have our favourites but one thing's for sure we don't look good enough and Capello seems to be upside down with his thinking.
He has players in the squad who have been basically non-starters for their clubs most of the season for different reasons and that in itself is scary. Bent has scored goals this year but lacks the class on the world stage. Heskey has experience but cannot score these days. Carleton Cole may have been a better option than either Heskey or Bent.
Dawson has been tremendous for Spurs but couldn't get a kick out of Capello for the friendlies which begs the question why? Parker has been great for West Ham but wasn't used either, as was Warnock. Are these players picked or not picked for the final squad based on practice sessions?
I believe that the Italian mentality of Capello suggests England will play 4-5-1 in all their games and have Rooney running his guts out for an hour to be replaced by or aided by Defoe, Crouch or Heskey depending on the score at that point.
These games, much like the performances against Mexico and Japan, may be very frustrating to watch.
Baines has only himself to blame.
First he had a very shaky game against Mexico. Then he admitted that he may struggle with Home Sickness.
Capello clearly decided Warnock was the safer choice.
First he had a very shaky game against Mexico. Then he admitted that he may struggle with Home Sickness.
Capello clearly decided Warnock was the safer choice.
Sorry for Leighton, a really good player, but on the whole he's better off out of it, England's lack of ability is always highlighted when we come up against proper footballers who can control, pass and shoot.
Lampard scuffs more shots than he hits cleanly (see that penalty, hitting down on it instead of through), he won't have the goal hanging luxury for England that he does at chelsea, and the Ferdinand /Terry combo a disaster waiting to happen.
Mr Rooney he's injured — don't care what anyone says — and with the exception of Joe Cole the rest are journeymen.
No surprise whatsover — he just did not want it enough.
You cannot come out and say you miss your mummy whilst trying to get into a World Cup squad. No wonder he did not get in and was an embarrassment against Mexico.
Good enough for us and sometimes looks class with Pienaar alongside him but against the best players in the World in a World Cup and his heart not being in it? Capello has balls for making this decision and it is a right one.
It is a shame because we had an Everton fullback in '66 and would have been a good omen.
Anyway, never in a million years can I see England finishing above the likes of Spain, Argentina, Brazil and the Dutch; however, I still think Baines will look back when he retires and regret his attitude on missing out.
You cannot come out and say you miss your mummy whilst trying to get into a World Cup squad. No wonder he did not get in and was an embarrassment against Mexico.
Good enough for us and sometimes looks class with Pienaar alongside him but against the best players in the World in a World Cup and his heart not being in it? Capello has balls for making this decision and it is a right one.
It is a shame because we had an Everton fullback in '66 and would have been a good omen.
Anyway, never in a million years can I see England finishing above the likes of Spain, Argentina, Brazil and the Dutch; however, I still think Baines will look back when he retires and regret his attitude on missing out.
Have to agree, Rooney may be playing on painkillers and keeping Barry with the squad, even if he cannot play in the first game, seems wasteful. He is basically a converted full back and is over-rated. Terry has had a lot of sqeaky games since the Wayne Bridge exposure. Rio is another injury risk, as is Upson. We need some high powered performances from Gerrard, Lampard and whoever else is left just to get us through the group but, after that, we will need to avoid the fancied teams to have a chance of progression.
Anthony you are correct with that. The shocking omission was Bent. This is a guy who has not only scored against the best teams in the EPL, but also outscored Torres, Tevez and Defoe this season. I would personally feel embarrassed if I were one of the strikers on the plane and had to look Bent in the eye (Rooney aside).
Capello is one of the biggest hypocrites of them all & I have never rated him highly. The Beckham debacle at Real Madrid still amuses me when I think of it. The FA got the wrong Italian — Lippi was the man they wanted. The England squad is the worst WC Squad I have seen in recent times. England are a one-man band, just as they were in the last WC.
Agree with Steve — Leighton didn't look interested, he never seemed sure/confident in himself. His performance against Mexico was poor — it's no use blaming Gerrard et al... Leighton should have screamed for support down the left, but his demeanour and subsequent homesickness quote has sealed his fate.
Remember it is only gossip, could all be bollocks, but a pity for him, bonus for us if it happens.
Although I fail to see how Heskey can make the squad. His prem stats were 31 played an an amzing total of 8 shots on goal, one shot on target every four games, let alone a goal. His strike rate makes Vic look like Rooney, and from those 8 shots had scored 3 goals. Put that into WC proportions, if they make the final, he will have a grand total of 2 shots on target in the whole tournament. Definitely England material. I firmly believe no other country would pick him in their squad if he were of their nationality.
Quote from the BBC site, spot on:
"Adam Johnson has to go over SWP considering he took his place at club level, so has been playing consistently and performing"
"Adam Johnson has to go over SWP considering he took his place at club level, so has been playing consistently and performing"
I honestly don't care whether he goes or not. But some of the choices do seem strange. Would have loved to see Johnson be able to come on and show something different. Carrick has been awful all season and SWP is there purely on reputation. I was quite looking forward to World Cup but I feel a bit deflated now...
Be realistic, Baines has done nothing to warrant inclusion. Quite the reverse in fact. Apart from his nervy (at best) display against Mexico (and even allowing for no help from Gerrard), he has seemingly made public utterances about homesickness and, most important of all, has not taken any command of the opportunity.
The idea that it's "disgraceful" when a manager of Capello's imperious credentials decides to leave out our left-back is rather amusing. If you read between the lines, or better still read some of the more intelligent & informed reports on what's been happening inside the camp, training etc etc, then it comes as little surprise.
Capello makes important judgements based on more than just ability and form. It seems Baines failed that test with Team Capello, being regarded as nervy. He got his chance against Mexico to nail that criticism, but sadly failed. Capello said he knew his 23 before the last 2 games, unless something changed his mind. Joe Cole was the only one that really took the opportunity.
Warnock is a good player, but probably won't even get a game out there. Get over it (if it's true).
The idea that it's "disgraceful" when a manager of Capello's imperious credentials decides to leave out our left-back is rather amusing. If you read between the lines, or better still read some of the more intelligent & informed reports on what's been happening inside the camp, training etc etc, then it comes as little surprise.
Capello makes important judgements based on more than just ability and form. It seems Baines failed that test with Team Capello, being regarded as nervy. He got his chance against Mexico to nail that criticism, but sadly failed. Capello said he knew his 23 before the last 2 games, unless something changed his mind. Joe Cole was the only one that really took the opportunity.
Warnock is a good player, but probably won't even get a game out there. Get over it (if it's true).
Media rumours eh, we fall for them yet again and get all hot under the collar for no reason. Still I love a good rumour me.
Ciaran,
One poor game against numerous quality games last season and the season before. As well as one other assured enough England cap.
Disgraceful that someone who hasn't been playing for England can be picked ahead of him.
Disgraceful that you can be being such a tit about it.
One poor game against numerous quality games last season and the season before. As well as one other assured enough England cap.
Disgraceful that someone who hasn't been playing for England can be picked ahead of him.
Disgraceful that you can be being such a tit about it.
Baines has only himself to blame, he's talked himself out of the squad with that "I get homesick" remark as he was definitely the man in possession as Cole's understudy.
I am disappointed for Leighton, but having said that, the squad has many questions to be answered, and they will be, in South Africa. King, Barry, Ferdinand are not fully fit; Rooney will be on the receiving end of some testing tackles, and the USA will be the start.
Capello exects Barry to all of a sudden get match fit?? And then we have Heskey who is in the squad because he plays well with Rooney?? I just wonder what will happen if Rooney takes the knock. But I had no faith, and nothings changed with that squad. too many dodgy knees and ankles.
Granted on the "home sickness comments".
But why not give Warnock any game time at all? Surely he knows that A. Cole is his number one. why not give Warnock at least 20 mins against Japan?
As good a manager etc as Capello is, this doesn't add up.
This doesn't just relate to Warnock either, SWP has lost his place in the man City side to Adam Johnson!
Carrick was shit against Mexico, and has been all season, but he is on the plane.
There is a lot that doesn't add up.
It makes about as much sense as signing someone from League One on a four-year contract.
But why not give Warnock any game time at all? Surely he knows that A. Cole is his number one. why not give Warnock at least 20 mins against Japan?
As good a manager etc as Capello is, this doesn't add up.
This doesn't just relate to Warnock either, SWP has lost his place in the man City side to Adam Johnson!
Carrick was shit against Mexico, and has been all season, but he is on the plane.
There is a lot that doesn't add up.
It makes about as much sense as signing someone from League One on a four-year contract.
Would have been nice to have some EFC representation for England this summer, and Norman sums up the slightly baffling "leaked," squad rather well.
On a seperate note, do we have to put up with England haters on this site all summer?
On a seperate note, do we have to put up with England haters on this site all summer?
"Disgraceful that you can be being such a tit about it. "
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It's not disgraceful at all, you child. It's a simple football decision.
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It's not disgraceful at all, you child. It's a simple football decision.
"On a seperate note, do we have to put up with England haters on this site all summer? "
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Haha... you wanna try putting up with England's triumph for a third of a century...
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Haha... you wanna try putting up with England's triumph for a third of a century...
Well, Kevin, England Haters have to put up with the millions of morons who display car flags and other tat at every opportunity they get while England are in the running. Also, the media saturation that will be hard to avoid even if one wants to, which I most certainly do! I personally find it hard to believe that any Evertonian can support a team with Gerrard, Terry, Carragher and Co in it anyway. I hope they get well and truly embarrassed at the first opportunity.
I think it is justified to be honest. He wasn't great against Mexico, and that comment of him possibly being homesick if he goes puts the nail in the coffin for me.
He needs to improve defensively, and Warnock is a better defender. Baines is far better going forward though, but England already have that in Ashley Cole.
I'm not bothered at all, means he can have a bit of a break, and stay fitter next season for us.
And because I'm Welsh, it gives me an excuse to not support England! USA! USA! USA!
He needs to improve defensively, and Warnock is a better defender. Baines is far better going forward though, but England already have that in Ashley Cole.
I'm not bothered at all, means he can have a bit of a break, and stay fitter next season for us.
And because I'm Welsh, it gives me an excuse to not support England! USA! USA! USA!
Good news for Everton but Leighton's international career must surely be hanging by a thread.
Ultimately he bottled it, he may have the talent but obviously not the mentality, which is no disgrace considering the pressure and hype surrounding England.
We may never know but I wouldn't be suprised if he made the homesickness comments knowing the consequences may be omission from the squad and saving himself an embarrassing withdrawal.
For me, Capello made the right decision but it's just a pity he didn't display the same clear thinking regarding that useless lump Heskey!
Ultimately he bottled it, he may have the talent but obviously not the mentality, which is no disgrace considering the pressure and hype surrounding England.
We may never know but I wouldn't be suprised if he made the homesickness comments knowing the consequences may be omission from the squad and saving himself an embarrassing withdrawal.
For me, Capello made the right decision but it's just a pity he didn't display the same clear thinking regarding that useless lump Heskey!
Well, I will put my dummy back in and shut up now.
It's just like a new signing!
Capello is just doing what all England managers do. Look at who the papers think are great and those with the most hype and pick them.
The biggest jokes are that Adam Johnson is keeping Wright-Phillips out of the Man City team and not picked and a forward with an embarrassing 3 goals all season is taken over the 2nd highest scoring Englishman in the Premier League (albeit a lot of penalties).
Baines didn't deserve to go based on his performances but shouldn't have said that about being Homesick!!
The biggest jokes are that Adam Johnson is keeping Wright-Phillips out of the Man City team and not picked and a forward with an embarrassing 3 goals all season is taken over the 2nd highest scoring Englishman in the Premier League (albeit a lot of penalties).
Baines didn't deserve to go based on his performances but shouldn't have said that about being Homesick!!
I am surprised that he even bothered taking Warnock, though — as he will not get a game either. I would have taken Walcott as an extra forward to throw on down the middle in the last 20 mins when chasing a game... his pace and finishing are excellent — he is no winger though.
For me, including Warnock does not make sense as Caragher can play left full back and Milner can also do a job there.
For me, including Warnock does not make sense as Caragher can play left full back and Milner can also do a job there.
Kevin; `hating' England goes too far — `uninterested in' is closer to the mark.
Chris (18) and James (34) certainly speak for me and nearly all of the Blues I know. To add to Chris's statement...
"Everton is all that matters, disregard the rest"
Yeah, but Steve (40), you need cover there. Imagine if England gets far, plays against a world class opponent and Cole gets injured. They'll be in dreamland when a right footed centre half or a supposed winger is playing at left back. They'll exploit that weakness and then bye bye England.
I am surprised Walcott is not in. He should've got in instead of Wright Philips for me, because he's too similar to Lennon.
Heskey should be in, because he was good in the campaign. Yes, he doesn't score goals, but he fits in Capello's system, which enable players like Rooney to get in.
Dawson, Huddlestone, Bent - fair enough, no excuses.
For me, I'd have put Parker in instead of Carrick, but other than that, Capello's spot on
I am surprised Walcott is not in. He should've got in instead of Wright Philips for me, because he's too similar to Lennon.
Heskey should be in, because he was good in the campaign. Yes, he doesn't score goals, but he fits in Capello's system, which enable players like Rooney to get in.
Dawson, Huddlestone, Bent - fair enough, no excuses.
For me, I'd have put Parker in instead of Carrick, but other than that, Capello's spot on
"Well, I will put my dummy back in and shut up now."
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Haha... no need for that. Just don't use insults to back up your opinion.
If we all agreed this would be a rather dull love-in...
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Haha... no need for that. Just don't use insults to back up your opinion.
If we all agreed this would be a rather dull love-in...
Osman and Hibbert should have gone, end of.
I firmly believe it is an absolute shambles and makes no sense WHATSOEVER that a left back who hasn't played in the warm up games is picked ahead of Bainesy. I think Capello has done a Sven and made some fucking weird decisions clearly not based on form but more on reputation and on no doubt what the England "regulars" have had to say.
Speaking of Bainesy's "shaky" display against Mexico... Well wouldn't any left back in the world look outnumbered and stretched without having a non-existent left-mid in front of him, never mind the absolute GOBSHITE that is Steven Gerrard aka arch-angel of Anfield??? Fucking mind baffling tactics from England again.
Granted Warnock is a good player but the theory behind picking him ahead of Baines is daft. However, the worst decision has got to be the inclusion of the definition of "yard dog" - Emile Heskey. I mean can you really see the likes of Spain's, Holland's or anyone's defence for that matter shaking with fear with the sight of that big fucking dope running at them with (or probably without) the ball?
Other decisions i.e. leaving out Adam Johnson ahead of Wright-Phillips have a lot to be desired also.
I actually like Capello but I've got a feeling these stupid actions will come back to haunt England. Quarter finals at best they'll be.
Anyhow, hope I'm wrong and we win it... but more importantly roll on August to the start of the new season, I'm getting fucking sick already of the hype surrounding England and all these supposed "fans" coming from nowhere.
COYB - Bainsey prove them wrong next season lad.
Speaking of Bainesy's "shaky" display against Mexico... Well wouldn't any left back in the world look outnumbered and stretched without having a non-existent left-mid in front of him, never mind the absolute GOBSHITE that is Steven Gerrard aka arch-angel of Anfield??? Fucking mind baffling tactics from England again.
Granted Warnock is a good player but the theory behind picking him ahead of Baines is daft. However, the worst decision has got to be the inclusion of the definition of "yard dog" - Emile Heskey. I mean can you really see the likes of Spain's, Holland's or anyone's defence for that matter shaking with fear with the sight of that big fucking dope running at them with (or probably without) the ball?
Other decisions i.e. leaving out Adam Johnson ahead of Wright-Phillips have a lot to be desired also.
I actually like Capello but I've got a feeling these stupid actions will come back to haunt England. Quarter finals at best they'll be.
Anyhow, hope I'm wrong and we win it... but more importantly roll on August to the start of the new season, I'm getting fucking sick already of the hype surrounding England and all these supposed "fans" coming from nowhere.
COYB - Bainsey prove them wrong next season lad.
Fair point well made.
To be honest, having read the comments on here I think Baines has lost the place (not for the performance) but because of his stupid "Homesick" comments.
But as he said them last week, if that gave Capello the doubt, why oh why not play Warnock a bit?
At least we won't have anyone wanting to buy Baines now.
To be honest, having read the comments on here I think Baines has lost the place (not for the performance) but because of his stupid "Homesick" comments.
But as he said them last week, if that gave Capello the doubt, why oh why not play Warnock a bit?
At least we won't have anyone wanting to buy Baines now.
Sorry people but the reason Baines isn't on the plane is that Capello has seen what you clearly can't all see through your rose tinted glasses, Baines cannot defend! He ball watches too often and doesn't have the ability to play at a higher level. Regardless of being home sick, he's not good enough for international football.
James Stewart,
So people who wave flags are morons, are they? How's that then, when it's happening right now throughout the world? Every country sells "tat," to its domestic market, and every country has blanket media coverage.
Unless you happen to be foreign, are you really saying that you won't support your own country, because of your prejudice towards 3 men who do? You don't think that's moronic?
Whatever your protestations, one thing I can guarantee all you English bashers; Is that come 12 June — you'll still be watching, won't you? And in the unlikely event that we reached the final, you will all change your tune and suddenly "start" supporting England.
"This country..."
So people who wave flags are morons, are they? How's that then, when it's happening right now throughout the world? Every country sells "tat," to its domestic market, and every country has blanket media coverage.
Unless you happen to be foreign, are you really saying that you won't support your own country, because of your prejudice towards 3 men who do? You don't think that's moronic?
Whatever your protestations, one thing I can guarantee all you English bashers; Is that come 12 June — you'll still be watching, won't you? And in the unlikely event that we reached the final, you will all change your tune and suddenly "start" supporting England.
"This country..."
Craig, maybe in Capello's mind, Warnock was always first choice cover for Cole, but he used the two games to see if Baines could cut it, which obviously he couldn't, so that made him 100% about Warnock.
Tough on the lad but he was never gonna get a game, just hope it doesn't put too much of a dent in his confidence.
I'll defer to Capello's marginally better knowledge of top flight football, and of seeing these players close up on a daily & weekly basis.
However, the omission that got me wasn't Baines but Jagielka. Many luminaries were equally puzzled. I mean, Upson? As Henry Winter put it, "What on earth does Jagielka have to do to get in the squad?". So yes, Jags definitely hard done by IMHO.
And, laugh if you want to, but I think a fit and in-form Leon Osman is better suited to the nature of international football that SWP. His link play & possession is superior & he's a more intelligent footballer.
But WTF do I know.
However, the omission that got me wasn't Baines but Jagielka. Many luminaries were equally puzzled. I mean, Upson? As Henry Winter put it, "What on earth does Jagielka have to do to get in the squad?". So yes, Jags definitely hard done by IMHO.
And, laugh if you want to, but I think a fit and in-form Leon Osman is better suited to the nature of international football that SWP. His link play & possession is superior & he's a more intelligent footballer.
But WTF do I know.
Alan Kirwin — Spot on. How Jags was overlooked is beyond me. If I was Baines or an England fan, Carragher would be the selection I'd be pissed off about.
Brian Waring: you beat me to it — I think you are on to something in that Capello had a clear idea of team shape, player limitations and those he felt are right for his squad.
What you have to remember is that, in the Mexico game, Baines looked exposed... but this is how England play and have played during qualifying. Gerrard has been on the left cutting in, thus the left full back will usually be exposed.
Now, Pienaar frequently does this for for Everton but he chases back like no-one's business. At Villa, Ashley Young plays a similar role to that of Gerrard for England — he cuts inside onto his stronger right foot. Unlike Pienaar, he does not chase back as much.
I would argue Capello possibly feels that Warnock may be better at playing with less cover. Yes, I concur that it is stupid not to test it out at international level, but maybe he felt in his mind that Baines is the one with the most question marks.
The other possibility is what has gone on behind the scenes — the homesick comment has already been highlighted as a potential factor and this may well make sense; remember when Baines joined Everton he said he was essentially filling his pants in case he couldn't make the step up (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2007/sep/29/newsstory.everton). Moyes didn't play him for ages either and made comments about his readiness for playing regularly at left back.
Slating Baines for making human comments about missing home and showing some refereshing humility are wide of the mark... Maybe it is best for the person involved (Baines) if he is left behind, no point doing something if you aren't comfortable in that situation...
Kevin, not all flag wavers are morons, no. It just so happens not all of us give a damn when it comes to patriotism or the national football team. I have never supported England in any WC and I am certainly not about to start at this one. I love Everton and only Everton.
Phil Bellis said 'England haters' was misguided and it was more a case of 'uninterested in' and I'd echo that. I will most definitely not be turning in on 12 June. Nor would I be celebrating the unlikely event of England winning it if it came to that. The thought of Ferdinand and Terry with their grubby hands on the World Cup makes me feel exactly as I do whenever they lift a domestic cup, physically sick.
I will support anyone but England, thank you.
There's one saving grace to the World Cup being played in South Africa, isn't there. At least "Ingerland" can't switch venues like they did in '66 to give themselves an advantage!!!!!
John Nelson, Post 45:
"Speaking of Bainesy's "shaky" display against Mexico... Well wouldn't any left back in the world look outnumbered and stretched without having a non-existent left-mid in front of him?"
Ashley Cole.
"Speaking of Bainesy's "shaky" display against Mexico... Well wouldn't any left back in the world look outnumbered and stretched without having a non-existent left-mid in front of him?"
Ashley Cole.
Good for you, James, but you manifest a rather skewed way of making your "disinterest," in England publically known. No fewer than six posts authored by you discussing England, here, four of them before I even came to this thread, suggest otherwise.
I feel sorry for Baines in the sense that any lad playing the game will always want to go to a World Cup and play for his country... but I couldn't think of a more odious bunch to be surrounded by for 4 weeks.
The team selection is as much as joke as the individuals concerned. The team should be renamed the London Centric Media Darlings XI.
As was posted by numerous others above, Everton are my main footballing concern I will be happy when all our lot are back from SA safe, well and fit for the start of the season.
I do enjoy the World Cup tournament from a footballing point of view and hope to see the Spanish play some lovely stuff.
The team selection is as much as joke as the individuals concerned. The team should be renamed the London Centric Media Darlings XI.
As was posted by numerous others above, Everton are my main footballing concern I will be happy when all our lot are back from SA safe, well and fit for the start of the season.
I do enjoy the World Cup tournament from a footballing point of view and hope to see the Spanish play some lovely stuff.
I cannot believe it... although when the dick Gerrard is put on the left in front of him, what do you expect!
Shaky display, Baines and Johnson on the left would be a superb combination.
I hope he goes away and has a good holiday and comes back injury free! Cole got torn apart by Donovan earlier in the season and I can see it happening again.
The squad selection is a joke — Carrick instead of Huddlestone; Heskey instead of Bent. There are more dodgy picks too.
Quarter finals at the best!
Shaky display, Baines and Johnson on the left would be a superb combination.
I hope he goes away and has a good holiday and comes back injury free! Cole got torn apart by Donovan earlier in the season and I can see it happening again.
The squad selection is a joke — Carrick instead of Huddlestone; Heskey instead of Bent. There are more dodgy picks too.
Quarter finals at the best!
Firstly it wasn't England who switched venues in 1966 — it was Fifa, although I'm sure England appreciated it.
Secondly, while it was a long time ago, England HAVE won the World Cup which is something that no other home nation or the Republic has been able to do. While we, as Evertonians, hark back to the sixties and the eighties (and even revere Dixie) and sing about our 'history', why is it wrong for England supporters to do the same?
I am not particularly happy about this England team or some of the players in it (I wasn't about the 1966 side either) or some of those who didn't make it... but I will be supporting them because England is my country and it is where I live.
There is something very peculiar about the English mindset that does not seem to exist anywhere else... a reluctance to support and a tendency to denigrate the nation, whether in football or anything else.
It really is peculiar and quite sad really. Nobody hates blind patriotism more than I do but some of the venom expressed here about our national team is quite disturbing. Get a fucking life; it's the World Cup not World War III!
Secondly, while it was a long time ago, England HAVE won the World Cup which is something that no other home nation or the Republic has been able to do. While we, as Evertonians, hark back to the sixties and the eighties (and even revere Dixie) and sing about our 'history', why is it wrong for England supporters to do the same?
I am not particularly happy about this England team or some of the players in it (I wasn't about the 1966 side either) or some of those who didn't make it... but I will be supporting them because England is my country and it is where I live.
There is something very peculiar about the English mindset that does not seem to exist anywhere else... a reluctance to support and a tendency to denigrate the nation, whether in football or anything else.
It really is peculiar and quite sad really. Nobody hates blind patriotism more than I do but some of the venom expressed here about our national team is quite disturbing. Get a fucking life; it's the World Cup not World War III!
I agree with the posts that this will work in our favour next season as Baines will have a few weeks off and will come back with a point to prove next season.
That being said, it's just another reason not to tune into those World Cup updates in the hope that Cole gets injured. Given the personalities in the squad, it's no surprise that many people who don't support Chelsea, Spurs, the RS et al are turning away.
That being said, it's just another reason not to tune into those World Cup updates in the hope that Cole gets injured. Given the personalities in the squad, it's no surprise that many people who don't support Chelsea, Spurs, the RS et al are turning away.
Fair point Dave...
My issues with England have nothing to do with my Nationality mate. It's simply down to the individuals that are representing this country. The likes of Terry, Gerrard, Ferdinand, A Cole etc all epitomise everything that is wrong with today's game and for them to wear their nation's colours on this platform is abhorrent to me. I could pick an England 11 without that lot involved and it would probably fare exactly the same.
The press pick the team in this country, they are also in part responsible for the state of the game and the over hyped celeb antics involved in the sport and this to many fans is too much to bear.
My issues with England have nothing to do with my Nationality mate. It's simply down to the individuals that are representing this country. The likes of Terry, Gerrard, Ferdinand, A Cole etc all epitomise everything that is wrong with today's game and for them to wear their nation's colours on this platform is abhorrent to me. I could pick an England 11 without that lot involved and it would probably fare exactly the same.
The press pick the team in this country, they are also in part responsible for the state of the game and the over hyped celeb antics involved in the sport and this to many fans is too much to bear.
@60 ... "It's a World Cup, not World War III": a point, perhaps, better made to the boozed up, red neck quasi fascists who will be doing their Ingerland thing in RSA.
Now I can have a good laugh when England go out on penalties in the quarter-finals without ANY reservation!
Pity for Baines though — let's hope EFC reap the benefit of this decision; he'll be raring to go come August.
Heskey ahead of Bent? Do me a favour. This squad looks weaker to me than the 2006 one, especially up front. It's totally reliant on one player...
Pity for Baines though — let's hope EFC reap the benefit of this decision; he'll be raring to go come August.
Heskey ahead of Bent? Do me a favour. This squad looks weaker to me than the 2006 one, especially up front. It's totally reliant on one player...
His time will come... quite sure he will be there in 2014... In the meantime, have a great holiday, Leighton, you deserve it!!
Perhaps Baines has been a bit cute here, after being pilloried for his recent performance, & knowing he's unlikely to get a kick anyway, maybe he decided to give Capello the perfect excuse to drop him by making the "homesick" comment.
It could be that he also would prefer to have a rest followed by a proper pre-season with Everton & figures he has plenty of time to establish himself as Cole's successor for the left-back position.
Tony - I fear his time will never come. If he truly let it be known that he's a worrier on travels, is homesick, then he will never be considered again. He can't choose to play between tournaments only — he has to fully commit himself.
My concern is the possible effect he and Jags will have start of next season as they both realise that they are no longer on Capello's radar.
My concern is the possible effect he and Jags will have start of next season as they both realise that they are no longer on Capello's radar.
Baines is not that good... Cole is light-years ahead. Toss of a coin whether he is better than Warnock or not — personally I think Warnock is better as he presses and is always right up the player's arse... unlike Baines, who holds off.
I don't care if he plays for England or not, but what I do care about is whether this will now impact his confidence again and he'll have a poor start to next season.
Dave Roberts "There is something very peculiar about the English mindset that does not seem to exist anywhere else... a reluctance to support and a tendency to denigrate the nation, whether in football or anything else."
One reason is that so many people refuse to accept the brutal history of our country, and always look back to us being a 'great' nation. In turn, those who are guilty of English history turn to absolute unpatriotism to the point of being embarrassed to be English. I count myself in this group.
I have German friends, and have been to Germany and the general public there is very sorry, and angry about their history, apologise for it and distance themselves from it.
English fans however, in general, look with pride to our murederous, oppressive, world poverty creating regimes of the past. They still look to the murderous and evil history of the Monarchy with pride. Think the British Empire was a great thing rather than one of the most evil and brutal regimes ever, including Germany. This brings many people to become disenchanted with the rest of the English public and this mindset to the point that I celebrate every goal England concede.
One reason is that so many people refuse to accept the brutal history of our country, and always look back to us being a 'great' nation. In turn, those who are guilty of English history turn to absolute unpatriotism to the point of being embarrassed to be English. I count myself in this group.
I have German friends, and have been to Germany and the general public there is very sorry, and angry about their history, apologise for it and distance themselves from it.
English fans however, in general, look with pride to our murederous, oppressive, world poverty creating regimes of the past. They still look to the murderous and evil history of the Monarchy with pride. Think the British Empire was a great thing rather than one of the most evil and brutal regimes ever, including Germany. This brings many people to become disenchanted with the rest of the English public and this mindset to the point that I celebrate every goal England concede.
I just hope he bounces back, he obviously suffers from confidence. For me he's as good as anyone on the ball, just lacks Cole's pace. I'm surprised he was replaced by someone who's played just 6 minutes for England!
Fair play to him for his honesty - makes a refreshing change to the smug bastards he is surrounded by. This makes interesting reading:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-420045/The-fear-failure-driving-Baines-on.html
I'm off to purchase my Italy shirt!
Fair play to him for his honesty - makes a refreshing change to the smug bastards he is surrounded by. This makes interesting reading:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-420045/The-fear-failure-driving-Baines-on.html
I'm off to purchase my Italy shirt!
Rather sad that Fran Mitchell excuses his hatred of England's football team due the "brutal history" of the British Empire. He is ofcourse perfectly free to support Germany, Japan or possibly North Korea in the World Cup. Pity the USSR doesn't exist any more...
It's good for Everton that Baines isn't going so I'm not bothered. Next season is all that really matters and giving him a good rest will do him good I'm sure.
This probably won't be a popular opinion... but I agree with the decision to take Heskey.
He does a decent job in an England shirt and seems to be a good foil for Rooney. Bent has never had a good game for England and would be a risk. Heskey's scoring record for Villa is woeful... but just look at Podolski and Klose this season — equally pants. But you can be sure they'll be leading the German front line this tournament, and probably do a good job of it.
This probably won't be a popular opinion... but I agree with the decision to take Heskey.
He does a decent job in an England shirt and seems to be a good foil for Rooney. Bent has never had a good game for England and would be a risk. Heskey's scoring record for Villa is woeful... but just look at Podolski and Klose this season — equally pants. But you can be sure they'll be leading the German front line this tournament, and probably do a good job of it.
Baines is better off not being associated with a squad which will frankly do well to get out of their group. Landon Donovan will have a field day for one and the US are a strong team with a point to prove. Neither of the other teams in our Group are pushovers. Capello has fallen for the same media trick every England manager falls for, ie who do the Press want?
Why Warnock over Baines? Why Heskey over Bent? Upson over... anybody? Barry... crock. Carragher? FFS! Bainsey is better off having a rest and watching us go out in the quarters like every other Finals.
Fran (70) and others. Regarding England's record internationally, I don't see where the country has done so poorly. If, "Win the WC or you're a failure", is the standard, even Brazil, Italy, and Germany aren't any great shakes are they? They've just failed a little less than the rest, eh.
As far as the love/hate thing in England? As an American, I have no opinion. Not my country or business. But given England's size and national talent pool is smaller than other top countries, you're in the hunt most of the time (Just like Holland). Picture a break or two going your way thru the years? Might've made a final or 3 since 1966, right?
Interesting is the ripping of England's players based on their salary and nothing else. We in America went thru this in the mid-70s when free-agency came to baseball, then the other major sports.
All I'd have to do in here is take out any reference to football and plug in baseball, basketball (don't get me started), or Ice Hockey for God's sake. EXACT same sentiments. For the exact same reason, have to say. Jealousy of the wages. We did it too back then.
Listen, nothing would delight this American more than England flopping next weekend. Our boys have to play them well (didn't Mexico tearing thru the defense raise our hopes) for us to get to the Sweet 16. US Soccer is moving everything along at pace (2018-2022? Look Out World!) and we understand the Grand Scheme. But we want to win it this year.
Englanders would rather the National side lose? OK. But it does seem peculiar to this foreigner, especially as so much of the venom spitted here looks to be based on what the player earns in salary.
If that money was offered me, I'd take it. Can't imagine anyone else saying, "No no. I'll play for free, thank you. Yes, pay everyone else a fortune. Just don't pay me". Come on now.
As far as the love/hate thing in England? As an American, I have no opinion. Not my country or business. But given England's size and national talent pool is smaller than other top countries, you're in the hunt most of the time (Just like Holland). Picture a break or two going your way thru the years? Might've made a final or 3 since 1966, right?
Interesting is the ripping of England's players based on their salary and nothing else. We in America went thru this in the mid-70s when free-agency came to baseball, then the other major sports.
All I'd have to do in here is take out any reference to football and plug in baseball, basketball (don't get me started), or Ice Hockey for God's sake. EXACT same sentiments. For the exact same reason, have to say. Jealousy of the wages. We did it too back then.
Listen, nothing would delight this American more than England flopping next weekend. Our boys have to play them well (didn't Mexico tearing thru the defense raise our hopes) for us to get to the Sweet 16. US Soccer is moving everything along at pace (2018-2022? Look Out World!) and we understand the Grand Scheme. But we want to win it this year.
Englanders would rather the National side lose? OK. But it does seem peculiar to this foreigner, especially as so much of the venom spitted here looks to be based on what the player earns in salary.
If that money was offered me, I'd take it. Can't imagine anyone else saying, "No no. I'll play for free, thank you. Yes, pay everyone else a fortune. Just don't pay me". Come on now.
Kevin, I was interested in the squad picked, yes. But then I am interested in all the squads — not just England. Don't get me wrong: I will enjoy the World Cup; just a lot more if England go out quick. Capello seems to have had an easy ride with the press/public... perhaps as McClaren was just so bad. I don't rate him personally and would take Moyes over him any day.
Chris Lawlor is spot on and I know a hell of a lot of people who feel exactly the same way.
Chris Lawlor is spot on and I know a hell of a lot of people who feel exactly the same way.
So Fran Mitchell celebrates every goal conceded by England because of events that took place a long time before any of the players were born?? Can you name me one country without historical sin, or explain how that could prompt you to withdraw your support for the team representing the modern English society?
A society that champions the cause for racial, sexual and religious equality on the world stage...
"English fans, however, in general look with pride to our murderous, oppressive, world poverty creating regimes of the past.... Think the British Empire was a great thing rather than one of the most evil and brutal regimes ever, including Germany." — Wow. Somebody's reading The Independent!!
Unlike you, I can't speak for all England fans, so the only way to respond to your astonishingly one-sided colonial guilt complex is to say this: I simply support my nation's athletes — like every other person on the planet does. Presumably this automatically qualifies me for membership of the NF, right?
Did you purposely omit to mention the many innovations,and achievements the UK gave to the world, or did you forget? Do you share equal distaste for the modern day Celtic nations who were part of the British Empire? Is modern England committing atrocities that we need to know about? And are the England players complicit in this?
Together, we can all condemn historical folly, but as a basis for hating your own country's sports team, that is intellectual bankruptcy, and a poor excuse for what I'm sure your German friends would call schadenfreude...
A society that champions the cause for racial, sexual and religious equality on the world stage...
"English fans, however, in general look with pride to our murderous, oppressive, world poverty creating regimes of the past.... Think the British Empire was a great thing rather than one of the most evil and brutal regimes ever, including Germany." — Wow. Somebody's reading The Independent!!
Unlike you, I can't speak for all England fans, so the only way to respond to your astonishingly one-sided colonial guilt complex is to say this: I simply support my nation's athletes — like every other person on the planet does. Presumably this automatically qualifies me for membership of the NF, right?
Did you purposely omit to mention the many innovations,and achievements the UK gave to the world, or did you forget? Do you share equal distaste for the modern day Celtic nations who were part of the British Empire? Is modern England committing atrocities that we need to know about? And are the England players complicit in this?
Together, we can all condemn historical folly, but as a basis for hating your own country's sports team, that is intellectual bankruptcy, and a poor excuse for what I'm sure your German friends would call schadenfreude...
Personally, I'm disappointed for the lad, he did always seem a bit dewey-eyed when thinking about England.
But let's face it, wouldn't we all rather have as many players fitter and fresher as possible for the start of next season?
Leighton's an integral member of our team, and we need as many players raring to go as we can, if only to avoid a disastrous start like last season.
But let's face it, wouldn't we all rather have as many players fitter and fresher as possible for the start of next season?
Leighton's an integral member of our team, and we need as many players raring to go as we can, if only to avoid a disastrous start like last season.
Jamie,
Whilst Podolski and Klose might not have had the best seasons, they have got nearly 90 international goals between them whilst Heskey has got 7 so I don't think there can be much comparison between why they have been included and Heskey's inclusion.
Heskey's inclusion, along with certain other players, has simply reinforced my opinion that I hope England get stuffed in every game they play and then people can realise that most of the players are so over-rated it is untrue. That is of course until we are a couple of months away from the next major tournament when the press can once again start telling us how all these players who have underperformed at every previous tournament are in fact world beaters.
Whilst Podolski and Klose might not have had the best seasons, they have got nearly 90 international goals between them whilst Heskey has got 7 so I don't think there can be much comparison between why they have been included and Heskey's inclusion.
Heskey's inclusion, along with certain other players, has simply reinforced my opinion that I hope England get stuffed in every game they play and then people can realise that most of the players are so over-rated it is untrue. That is of course until we are a couple of months away from the next major tournament when the press can once again start telling us how all these players who have underperformed at every previous tournament are in fact world beaters.
Fran Mitchell, I hear your point about English History but when you look a bit deeper at some of our colonial activities we're no worse and no better than any major empire.
Don't think we should be wearing a "hairshirt" forever over this, admittedly we have plenty of "Ingerland dickeads " but I'm more concerned about us never producing decent footballers than some of our Neanderthal attitudes. Most countries have 'em.
The article's about Baines vs Warnock, and as others have alluded to, there's not a lot in it.
As to England in general, we've no chance. All that Capello has done is ensure England beat the teams they should. Name me one result against a decent calibre of opposition. Mr Capello breezed into England citing a changing time for the national squad, a place where names would become irrelevant and form and consistency the key. Bollocks. The starting side against USA will look something like this:
Green, Johnson, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Lennon, Gerrard, Lampard, Cole, Heskey, Rooney.
If it was picked, as Mr Capello stated it would be, on form, it would look something like this IMO:
Hart, Neville G, King, Terry, Cole, Johnson A, Lampard, Milner, Downing, Rooney, Crouch. Washed up no hopers like Carragher and Heskey would be nowhere near the squad, and the likes of Gerrard (who is, btw, a fantastic player) and Ferdinand would learn that failure to perform in an England shirt, or a lack of games for their club, would lead to forfeiture of their place in the XI.
I truly think we will be embarassed by USA. I hope not. As I have roots in Spain, I will be supporting them equally. This shite about not supporting the national team cos of players' club allegiances is also shite IMO — I hope Torres scores 10 for Spain. As long as he scores fuck all for the shite. For anyone solely supporting England, I expect you will be experiencing another 2 years of hurt. As for myself... Go Espana!
As to England in general, we've no chance. All that Capello has done is ensure England beat the teams they should. Name me one result against a decent calibre of opposition. Mr Capello breezed into England citing a changing time for the national squad, a place where names would become irrelevant and form and consistency the key. Bollocks. The starting side against USA will look something like this:
Green, Johnson, Ferdinand, Terry, Cole, Lennon, Gerrard, Lampard, Cole, Heskey, Rooney.
If it was picked, as Mr Capello stated it would be, on form, it would look something like this IMO:
Hart, Neville G, King, Terry, Cole, Johnson A, Lampard, Milner, Downing, Rooney, Crouch. Washed up no hopers like Carragher and Heskey would be nowhere near the squad, and the likes of Gerrard (who is, btw, a fantastic player) and Ferdinand would learn that failure to perform in an England shirt, or a lack of games for their club, would lead to forfeiture of their place in the XI.
I truly think we will be embarassed by USA. I hope not. As I have roots in Spain, I will be supporting them equally. This shite about not supporting the national team cos of players' club allegiances is also shite IMO — I hope Torres scores 10 for Spain. As long as he scores fuck all for the shite. For anyone solely supporting England, I expect you will be experiencing another 2 years of hurt. As for myself... Go Espana!
Well, Bainsey has let himself down, hasn't he? Why did even accept his call up to the '30'?... He is a bottler on the international stage and certainly doesn't apply his club form (rather like a lot of other wannabe internationals). Time for him to come straight out and say that England is not for him due to the time away from his family....
btw Fran (70)... as others have alluded too, our 'empire/colonial' days were no less murderous than the German. French, Portuguese, Dutch and Spanish empires around at the same time as ours, never mind the USSR, Chinese and American... if you hate the freedom this country gives you the answer is simple: LEAVE!
So... Leighton gets left out of the England squad having played two full games. Warnock is in, playing just eight minutes for England.
Being from Ireland, I'm interested to get an English view on Fabio's methods. In my opinion, he contradicts himself on several selections/comments. ''If you don't play regulary then you can't be picked.'' ''If you don't play well at club level, you can't be picked.'' etc.
Heskey is included when he is useless at club level and hardly ever plays; Bent scores 25 goals then only gets 45 minutes twice to show what he can do. SWP has hardly played for City under Mancini and is in the squad, same with Joe Cole.
Leighton may not have played his greatest game against Mexico but he is by far a better player than Warnock. Why did Warnok not play any of the build-up games? In my opinion, Fabio is full of it... and looking at the squad he has selected, I would be very suprised if England win the the World Cup.
If the rumours are true that Baines has been left out of the 23-man England squad then Capello has made a grave error. Did he not know that the last and only time England won the World Cup in 1966 the Left Back was an Everton player, Ray Wilson? Hes blown England's chances before a ball's been kicked!
Baines is dropped because of his "suspect" defensive qualities simple as that. At Everton, he is among the main players with Pienaar. He either assists, or contributes in the play leading up to goals.
Capello I'm sure chose Warnock because he is better one against one defensively. Neither would have been first choices, and the offensive duties with the National side rest with Rooney, Lampard and one or two more midfielders. Occasionally you will see the overlapping full-backs, but Capello prefers a solid defensive unit.
Capello I'm sure chose Warnock because he is better one against one defensively. Neither would have been first choices, and the offensive duties with the National side rest with Rooney, Lampard and one or two more midfielders. Occasionally you will see the overlapping full-backs, but Capello prefers a solid defensive unit.
Baines's main weakness is being beaten by the winger, and too often drifting inside towards the central defenders, leaving space for wide play by the opposition.
Just my opinion, I still rate him one of our most important players.
Dare I say it, Capello is the manager DM aspires to be: strong willed but essentially cautious. Capello, however, had the luxury of forging his reputation among the elite clubs in Europe.
His omission of Adam Johnson rather than Baines shows his true colours, the level playing field of the World Cup will illustrate his limited style, England will fall because fortune favours the brave.
"I have German friends, and have been to Germany and the general public there is very sorry, and angry about their history, apologise for it and distance themselves from it."
It doesn't stop them supporting their national football team at World Cups, though, does it?
When will people get it into their thick heads about Heskey? He's not going for his goals, he's going because he brings the best out of his strike partners. I can't believe this is still being debated. He'll be far more useful than Bent in SA.
It doesn't stop them supporting their national football team at World Cups, though, does it?
When will people get it into their thick heads about Heskey? He's not going for his goals, he's going because he brings the best out of his strike partners. I can't believe this is still being debated. He'll be far more useful than Bent in SA.
Geoff,
I am not a big fan of Darren Bent but he has only been outscored by two of the best strikers in the world this season in the Premier League, whilst Heskey can't even get into his own club side. Darren Bent certainly deserves a shot ahead of Heskey.
If he is that good at bringing the best out of the other strikers, why has Ferguson or Ancelloti etc not bought him to play, week-in, week-out, with Rooney and Drogba.
I am not a big fan of Darren Bent but he has only been outscored by two of the best strikers in the world this season in the Premier League, whilst Heskey can't even get into his own club side. Darren Bent certainly deserves a shot ahead of Heskey.
If he is that good at bringing the best out of the other strikers, why has Ferguson or Ancelloti etc not bought him to play, week-in, week-out, with Rooney and Drogba.
I personally would accept that Warnock is a better player defensively than Baines. However, I feel that Baines has been singled out rather unfairly for his performance against Mexico. There were several England players who didn't really play all that well in that match and indeed in the game against Japan.
It seems to me that there are a few players who get into the England squad regardless of form, e.g. Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Heskey to name but four. Reputations don't win World Cups; Lampard was very poor in the 2006 World Cup and Gerrard doesn't play as consistently well for England as he does in the Premier League and Heskey hasn't featured regularly in the Premier League. It's great to support Ireland!!! I feel sorry for you guys having to cheer on a team including Ashley Cole, John Terry, Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard!!! Fine upstanding role models they certainly aren't.
Perhaps if the England star players were more determined to be in the Sports Papers as much as the Celeb magazines, England would have a better chance. I think Leighton is well out of it, although he will not think so now of course. But he is young enough and hopefully this will be the last Hurrah of the England Celeb clique.
Donovan versus Cole with Stevie Me missing somwhere in the middle of the park. Could be interesting.
Kevin Hudson
'Do you share equal distaste for the modern day Celtic nations who were part of the British Empire?'
Read a history book then catch a grip.
'Do you share equal distaste for the modern day Celtic nations who were part of the British Empire?'
Read a history book then catch a grip.
Professor McCullough,
1707; the Acts of Union. And your point is..?
1707; the Acts of Union. And your point is..?
I have absolutely no idea what your point is, Kevin. I'm not a professor either. My point is that British imperial policies had no input from the Celtic nations.
Until the 1867 Reform Act the majority of people could not vote. Before then, small towns in England had more votes than big cities. After the act was passed, constituencies with less than 10,000 people lost a seat. Scotland gained seven, Ireland gained some with heavy qualifications, Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds gained one. After the Act, the working-class were still susceptible to undemocratic influence and small towns like Tiverton were still equally represented in parliament as Glasgow.
Imperial policy had nothing to do with the Celts.
So no Celts have ever served the interest of the British Empire then? What about those who since the 18th century fought and continue to die for the Union?
What are waffling on about proportional representation for,and what does that have to do with with your original taunting remark anyway?
If we were ONLY discussing the positive aspects of the myriad of innovations the Empire produced, people like you would be the first to pipe up reminding us of all the great Celtic achievements that supported it. Do yourself a favour — hush.
What are waffling on about proportional representation for,and what does that have to do with with your original taunting remark anyway?
If we were ONLY discussing the positive aspects of the myriad of innovations the Empire produced, people like you would be the first to pipe up reminding us of all the great Celtic achievements that supported it. Do yourself a favour — hush.
Wasn't talking about PR, as you know I was talking about the franchise. Oh, and as for Celtic achievements... I'm quite sure that was due to hard work and individual inspiration. You aren't patronising at all. Good luck.
I believe Jags was much harder done to than Leighton.
Incidentally, can any one name the last Everton player [current at the time] to make an England World Cup squad?
The four in 1986: Peter Reid, Gary Stevens, Trevor Steven, Gary Lineker.
However, the last Everton player to go to a major international tournament with England was Wayne Rooney in 2004 for the Euros.
Ah, so you have abandoned your previously vehement convictions. I guess you wanted to retaliate with 'minutiae' but could not find any to support your faintly concealed jingoism. What is meant by the quotation marks?
Chris, you must be pissed because I finished talking to you hours ago, and have no clue what you're referring to here — seriously, no clue.
Bit nasty to call me jingoistic though — that's completely out of line.
Time to step away from this thread.
Bit nasty to call me jingoistic though — that's completely out of line.
Time to step away from this thread.
Oh for fuck sake Kevin. We clearly aren't on the same wave length. Whatever.
For what it's worth, I totally agree with your earlier 'England hater' comments.
Just don't throw shit at the Celts, mate.
For what it's worth, I totally agree with your earlier 'England hater' comments.
Just don't throw shit at the Celts, mate.
The squad is picked based on how much money they can generate for the FA whilst still putting in a reasonable performance.
Rumours suggest that Bainesy didn't get on with certain other members of the squad who are also based in Liverpool. As they are more newsworthy, he stayed home and the inoffensive Warnock went. Maybe he said he was going to stay at Everton for the rest of his career so they couldn't tap him up.
Rumours suggest that Bainesy didn't get on with certain other members of the squad who are also based in Liverpool. As they are more newsworthy, he stayed home and the inoffensive Warnock went. Maybe he said he was going to stay at Everton for the rest of his career so they couldn't tap him up.
Okay-clarification time. I was not throwing shit at the Celts. I was talking to an English hater who claimed not to support us because of the BRITISH Empire, and asked if he felt the same way about the other UK countries — or was it exclusively an anti-English thing.
I mentioned to you that Celts have contributed to the UK significantly, yet you and Ciaran assumed I was being sarcastic — that was absolutely not the case. You both definitely took that the wrong way.
The point being made to Fran (in post 77) was that the Empire was made up of more than one country, and if he's so ashamed of British history, and therefore ludicrously won't support a football team because of it, that's basically a crap reason.
Because the modern UK is a great country, that does a lot of good these days. That includes all 4 of us. Why shouldn't we support our country without being labelled jingoistic by idiots casting aspersions?
For the record: My dad's side is Firth of Forth. My mum's is County Cork. I know all the words to "Flower of Scotland," and "Ireland's Call." And paradoxical as it may be, I'm a Scouser who supports England...
I mentioned to you that Celts have contributed to the UK significantly, yet you and Ciaran assumed I was being sarcastic — that was absolutely not the case. You both definitely took that the wrong way.
The point being made to Fran (in post 77) was that the Empire was made up of more than one country, and if he's so ashamed of British history, and therefore ludicrously won't support a football team because of it, that's basically a crap reason.
Because the modern UK is a great country, that does a lot of good these days. That includes all 4 of us. Why shouldn't we support our country without being labelled jingoistic by idiots casting aspersions?
For the record: My dad's side is Firth of Forth. My mum's is County Cork. I know all the words to "Flower of Scotland," and "Ireland's Call." And paradoxical as it may be, I'm a Scouser who supports England...
Show me a man who isn't a paradox, Kevin. No clarification required.
Enjoy the World Cup.
Enjoy the World Cup.
1."Because the modern UK is a great country that does a lot of good these days"... I won't even go there, but seriously, pull your head out.
2."He's so ashamed of British history, and therefore ludicrously won't support a football team because of it"... that ain't the reason, the reason is that Englishness, and patriotism in England constantly refers to our great history, being a great nation etc etc, it points to our history as a point of pride, this is what disgusts me and thus turns me away from supporting England.
The Celts have generally been victims of our monarchy throughout history, and when speaking to patriotic Celts, they generally don't refer to the great British Empire — that one is usually the English.
Many countries have disgusting histories, but how they look back on it, the genreal public, is usually not with such pride as with the English.
So, in short, I am not proud of being English, and I hold no affinity to this country. That is why I do not support England.
If that's a crap reason for not supporting a football team, what's your compelling aruguement for why I should support England?
Note:... Never once have I talked about why you shouldn't support England. I haven't once lectured you about your passions towards England. I never actually discussed this until many people started saying "what's with all the England haters?", so I provided an answer to that question as to 'why I do not support England'. Why does this offend you so?
2."He's so ashamed of British history, and therefore ludicrously won't support a football team because of it"... that ain't the reason, the reason is that Englishness, and patriotism in England constantly refers to our great history, being a great nation etc etc, it points to our history as a point of pride, this is what disgusts me and thus turns me away from supporting England.
The Celts have generally been victims of our monarchy throughout history, and when speaking to patriotic Celts, they generally don't refer to the great British Empire — that one is usually the English.
Many countries have disgusting histories, but how they look back on it, the genreal public, is usually not with such pride as with the English.
So, in short, I am not proud of being English, and I hold no affinity to this country. That is why I do not support England.
If that's a crap reason for not supporting a football team, what's your compelling aruguement for why I should support England?
Note:... Never once have I talked about why you shouldn't support England. I haven't once lectured you about your passions towards England. I never actually discussed this until many people started saying "what's with all the England haters?", so I provided an answer to that question as to 'why I do not support England'. Why does this offend you so?
I guess I could also say I despise the over-hyped, over-rated players who always play for a selected few teams and continually play average, boring football. Yet, when we beat Macedonia et al, they are treated like gods.
I love football, I enjoy seeing these over-rated wankers get shown up for what they are, and without supporting any team I still bloody love the World Cup.
I enjoyed the Euro Championships so much more without England competing, becasue you could watch the football without being bombarded with all this 'Glory Glory England' bollocks, and there was some excellent football on display.
I love football, I enjoy seeing these over-rated wankers get shown up for what they are, and without supporting any team I still bloody love the World Cup.
I enjoyed the Euro Championships so much more without England competing, becasue you could watch the football without being bombarded with all this 'Glory Glory England' bollocks, and there was some excellent football on display.
It's the media, stupid.
Look, the reason why the 'Celtic nations' have a laugh at England is more to do with the media than the players. Every 2 years, the hype builds up to a crescendo of 'England are going to win it', then the rest of us are laughing our heads off when you don't.
It's not from an out-and-out hatred of the players (although that might not apply to some of the fans); it's just that the rest of the 'Celtic nations' know from the start that the media build England up to the point where the England supporting football public think they are better than they actually are, and then they fall flat on their faces.
I mean as I type this, I am watching SSN telling me that they have 'exclusive coverage' of England players GETTING ON THE PLANE! FFS!
By the way, Kevin, do you know all the words of Amhrán na bhFiann? No? Good.
Peace please guys - does it really matter if you support England or not? Some Evertonians choose to support England, whilst there are others who don't for whatever reason. One of my best friends was born in Liverpool, but grew up in Adelaide. His family moved back to this country, but he supports Australia — always has done since I knew him.
My Dad supported England; me, as all my ancestors up to and including my grandparents, came from Ireland — predominantly from the Kilkenny area — I support Ireland in all national team sports; I have quite a collection of Ireland matches from the Six Nations over the last few years.
Interestingly enough, a fact which my cousin Sean from Kilkenny pointed out to me — it's only in the sport of Football that Ireland is divided into two teams: Republic & Northern Ireland. In other team sports e.g. Rugby and Cricket, the Ireland team is an All-Ireland team. And they seem to work well together.
Personally, I hope that England do well in the World Cup, but as usual when Ireland are not involved I will follow the fortunes of the countries that feature Everton players.
As for England, well a Semi Final place at least if they play to their full potential. The only time I get "uptight" as it were about England is when I hear some of the media and fans going on about the rules for national qualification — e.g. players like Aldridge, Townsend being born outside Ireland but being allowed to play due to parental, grand parents qualification.
I think it a bit rich as over the years England have had several South African born players in the English cricket team. In the England Rugby team in recent years there was a guy called Mike Catt also South African born and one of the main players in the current team is a guy called Riki Flutey who is a New Zealander. And there was some guy called John Barnes who wasn't born in England, but played football for England... can't think of his club teams though... ah yes that's right... Watford, Charlton and some other team.
Fran,
Notwithstanding you coming dangerously close to contradictiing yourself, clearly you only see the worst in everything. I would have thought the majority of English would look back on the darker elements of history and be appalled... but there IS a lot of good that came from here too. And still does. I think the majority of the English look back on the GOOD things that this country has achieved, and celebrate the individuals who made a difference
Go look up the BBC's Greatest Ever Britons top twenty poll, as reference. Are we perfect? — no... but we're not exactly living in North Korea these days, are we?
Maybe a bit of balance would add credibility to your argument... Claiming that events which took place long before you were born, impact upon your footballing world view is akin to saying you hate Elvis Presley because the Pilgrims massacred the Indians!
England does have its fair share of dickheads following its national team... but then, so does Everton. Travel to an away game to the Midlands and you'll see what I mean. Does that mean I have less support for the TEAM? — No!! Context...
Oh and Brendan: newsflash! It's called a build-up... Blanket media coverage is nothing new, as it applies to all countries. SSN also showed the Aussies & Americans getting OFF the plane, and the Argentinians & Brazilians getting on a COACH.
I'm sure RTE would be doing exactly the same if the Republic qualified, and your country would have been singing Amhran na bhFiann quite proudly at RSA, rather than against Paraguay in front of one man and his dog...
Notwithstanding you coming dangerously close to contradictiing yourself, clearly you only see the worst in everything. I would have thought the majority of English would look back on the darker elements of history and be appalled... but there IS a lot of good that came from here too. And still does. I think the majority of the English look back on the GOOD things that this country has achieved, and celebrate the individuals who made a difference
Go look up the BBC's Greatest Ever Britons top twenty poll, as reference. Are we perfect? — no... but we're not exactly living in North Korea these days, are we?
Maybe a bit of balance would add credibility to your argument... Claiming that events which took place long before you were born, impact upon your footballing world view is akin to saying you hate Elvis Presley because the Pilgrims massacred the Indians!
England does have its fair share of dickheads following its national team... but then, so does Everton. Travel to an away game to the Midlands and you'll see what I mean. Does that mean I have less support for the TEAM? — No!! Context...
Oh and Brendan: newsflash! It's called a build-up... Blanket media coverage is nothing new, as it applies to all countries. SSN also showed the Aussies & Americans getting OFF the plane, and the Argentinians & Brazilians getting on a COACH.
I'm sure RTE would be doing exactly the same if the Republic qualified, and your country would have been singing Amhran na bhFiann quite proudly at RSA, rather than against Paraguay in front of one man and his dog...
Richard; I think that's probably right except that Lineker was sold before the World Cup. That was pretty controversial at the time with much talk of bungs from Barcelona.
Very witty, Kevin, that comment about the dog. Of course you're right though, the Republic of Ireland are not going to the World Cup in South Africa. Probably as good a bet to win it as England all the same.
I also wonder, Fran, why you're not boycotting the tournament in its entirety — on account of the former Apartheid regime? Given we're talking about shameful history, and a minority who condone it, I believe there's still plenty of followers of Eugene Terreblanche over there.
Just ask Louis Theroux...
Just ask Louis Theroux...
Agreed Eamonn... but one can hope!!
Wonder if we should stop supporting Everton because the city of Liverpool grew on the back of the slave trade?
"By the way, Kevin, do you know all the words of Amhrán na bhFiann? No? Good."
---
He knows Ireland Call though!
Classic.
---
He knows Ireland Call though!
Classic.
I was just wondering how many people know the words to the British National Anthem? Personally speaking, I think the Dutch National anthem sounds quite good and the Italian.
I have always had a problem with the British National Anthem in that the words say a lot about the monarchy but not so much about the country. But let's not digress too much. That Leighton Baines has got a lot to answer for — provoking all this nationalistic debate !!!!!!!!!
So Kevin, I'll ask again, Why then should I support England?
And no, I will not boycott SA, as Aparthied was fought against. There can be pride taken from that. If the World Cup was held in Israel, then Yes, I would boycott it.
However, England is the same barbarous nation, killing millions of people for the economic benefit of a few. Yes, it's not like we're living in North Korea; however, the country as it stands has the standard of living that we have on the back of exploitation in Thailand, Nigeria, Haiti, Congo etc, and their standards of living are pretty piss poor.
I will still watch England, I will be intereested in their progress and performances, but I will not support them. Just as I will not support Germany, Spain etc
Yes there is an element of schadenfreude when England lose, but I don't hate the England football team.
You asked why I don't support them, I explained why, it stems from my non-pride of being English.
Why should I support them? You seem to hold passionate beliefs, I am not saying you shouldn't support England for x, y, z; I am saying this is why I do not support them. You tell me why I should.
And no, I will not boycott SA, as Aparthied was fought against. There can be pride taken from that. If the World Cup was held in Israel, then Yes, I would boycott it.
However, England is the same barbarous nation, killing millions of people for the economic benefit of a few. Yes, it's not like we're living in North Korea; however, the country as it stands has the standard of living that we have on the back of exploitation in Thailand, Nigeria, Haiti, Congo etc, and their standards of living are pretty piss poor.
I will still watch England, I will be intereested in their progress and performances, but I will not support them. Just as I will not support Germany, Spain etc
Yes there is an element of schadenfreude when England lose, but I don't hate the England football team.
You asked why I don't support them, I explained why, it stems from my non-pride of being English.
Why should I support them? You seem to hold passionate beliefs, I am not saying you shouldn't support England for x, y, z; I am saying this is why I do not support them. You tell me why I should.
Oh, and Churchill got voted greatest ever Briton on that BBC program you harped on about.
I could go on as to why he was an evil fucker, who supported the rise of Hitler in the early 30s, despised Jews, despised the working classes and welcomed poverty.
But I'm guessing you won't have any of that. He is a war hero in your mind, I'm sure, who save the world.
I could go on as to why he was an evil fucker, who supported the rise of Hitler in the early 30s, despised Jews, despised the working classes and welcomed poverty.
But I'm guessing you won't have any of that. He is a war hero in your mind, I'm sure, who save the world.
Isn't it really a case of respecting why a person wants to support a particular national team or even a club? A few years ago, we had to take my step-son to A&E after he had a fall. The nurse saw his Everton top and said "You should support your local team — Lincoln City". Of course that was not a serious criticism, given the circumstances. However, there are some people who hold that particular view.
I think it is a matter of the individual's personal choice/preference. It is clear that Fran is not comfortable with certain aspects of England's/Britain's history. I think that view should be respected just as much as the views of those who stress the reasons why one should be proud to be British. Having a National conscience isn't a bad thing in my opinion.
Patriotism can be defined as being the love of one's country. But surely it's not Patriotic to think that one's country is always right — it's rather short-sighted and I would say that can be applied to all nations. All nations have things they can be proud of; equally, all nations have things they can be ashamed of.
Michael, the Welsh national anthem is pretty stirring as well - enough to get the hackles on the back of your neck standing up. I wouldn't claim to know the words though!
Kevin, there was quite a decent crowd at the Paraguay and Algeria games actually, given the size of the venue. And we softened up the Algerians for you as well! The Thierry Henry double hand... no I won't go there.
Still think the 'blanket media coverage' as you call it is much greater for England than for anyone else, especially other 'home' nations. The further they are built up means the further they have to fall though...
Kevin, there was quite a decent crowd at the Paraguay and Algeria games actually, given the size of the venue. And we softened up the Algerians for you as well! The Thierry Henry double hand... no I won't go there.
Still think the 'blanket media coverage' as you call it is much greater for England than for anyone else, especially other 'home' nations. The further they are built up means the further they have to fall though...
Why should you support England? Were you born here?Have you lived here all your life? If Capello asked you to play, would you turn him down? I'm not Norman Tebbit, so if you hold strong cultural and emotional ties to another country, I would support you on that...
But the argument you put forward for not supporting the presumed country of your birth and residence is spurious at best, and fatuous at worst. It is an explanation that gets brilliantly undone by Charles King in just one sentence (114).
In keeping with the rest of your opinions scribed onto this thread, you again unilaterally skew focus, with reference to the Greatest Britons poll I alluded to, conveniently avoiding the more rounded view.
I mentioned the top 20, which contains the names of,among others, Brunel, Darwin, Shakespeare, Fleming, Princess Diana and Lennon & McCartney.
Slightly further down, and at the risk of sounding like that Norwegian commentator, e find the names of Stephen Hawking, Emmeline Pankhurst, David Bowie, Guy Fawkes & William Wilberforce.
Instead,you derogatively highlight Churchill, and claim that the man who defeated Hitler and won WW 2, hated Jews!! Answers on a postcard... (Google the Jerusalem Post 2/10/2010 please).
With regard to Haiti, British Airways have flown in relief supplies, and more than £10million in aid has already been donated from these shores. In 2009 the British Department for International Development donated £120 million to Nigeria — you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you?
My over-riding premise is that I just support the athletes who come from the same country as me.T hat's it. Others don't, and that's fine — it's a free country (unlike others you referenced).
But until someone can provide a credible argument as to why they don't support their place of birth, cultural heritage aside, I won't understand it...
But the argument you put forward for not supporting the presumed country of your birth and residence is spurious at best, and fatuous at worst. It is an explanation that gets brilliantly undone by Charles King in just one sentence (114).
In keeping with the rest of your opinions scribed onto this thread, you again unilaterally skew focus, with reference to the Greatest Britons poll I alluded to, conveniently avoiding the more rounded view.
I mentioned the top 20, which contains the names of,among others, Brunel, Darwin, Shakespeare, Fleming, Princess Diana and Lennon & McCartney.
Slightly further down, and at the risk of sounding like that Norwegian commentator, e find the names of Stephen Hawking, Emmeline Pankhurst, David Bowie, Guy Fawkes & William Wilberforce.
Instead,you derogatively highlight Churchill, and claim that the man who defeated Hitler and won WW 2, hated Jews!! Answers on a postcard... (Google the Jerusalem Post 2/10/2010 please).
With regard to Haiti, British Airways have flown in relief supplies, and more than £10million in aid has already been donated from these shores. In 2009 the British Department for International Development donated £120 million to Nigeria — you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you?
My over-riding premise is that I just support the athletes who come from the same country as me.T hat's it. Others don't, and that's fine — it's a free country (unlike others you referenced).
But until someone can provide a credible argument as to why they don't support their place of birth, cultural heritage aside, I won't understand it...
"However, England is still the same barborous nation, killing millions of people."
WHAT?!! WHERE?!!
And why hasn't CNN covered this??
WHAT?!! WHERE?!!
And why hasn't CNN covered this??
Over 1 million killed in Iraq since 2003. Ok, not solely England, but complicit in it anyhow.
Hundreds of thousands killed in Afganistan.
Sold (and continue to sell) arms to Israel.
Sold arms to tribes, who were trained and supported by both UK and US, in the Congo, where 6-7 million people have been killed, just happened to coincide with the growth in popularity of mobile phones and other electronic hardware (Congo holds 80% of world's coltan).
Hundreds of thousands have been killed in Nigeria, yes we give aid, to ensure that Nigerian (or Biafran) oil controlled by the multinationals, in doing this, killing the many thousands of Biafran independance protestors.
Haiti, a place considered more important to the profit makers than China, where people are payed 20p a day and we gave 'aid' to do our best to maintain control over Haiti. Haiti has been in trouble long before the earthquake. British, US and more multi-national corporations (however, it is mainly the US and Brazilian armies, although the quake did allow the UK to send troops under the guise of help) etc etc... It's a long story, but it's right there on Google, go beyond CNN, Wikipedia and The Telegraph and you can find it.
Churchill quotes: "I admire men who stand up for their country... he had a perfect right, to be a patriotic German" on talking about Hitler in 1932.
This is his criticism of Leon Trotsky from 1937: "Who was Trotsky? He was a Jew. He was still a Jew, nothing could get over that."
Sounds like a lovely fella, doesn't he?
A little extra, he said "Many people admired the work which the extraordinary man Signor Mussolini had done for his country."
And "He united his country and rebuilt its greatness. Apart from that he reconciled the past with present, and broadened the life of the working people..." — that's him talking of another fascist, Franco.
By the way, yes I do know what the fuck I am talking about.
Hundreds of thousands killed in Afganistan.
Sold (and continue to sell) arms to Israel.
Sold arms to tribes, who were trained and supported by both UK and US, in the Congo, where 6-7 million people have been killed, just happened to coincide with the growth in popularity of mobile phones and other electronic hardware (Congo holds 80% of world's coltan).
Hundreds of thousands have been killed in Nigeria, yes we give aid, to ensure that Nigerian (or Biafran) oil controlled by the multinationals, in doing this, killing the many thousands of Biafran independance protestors.
Haiti, a place considered more important to the profit makers than China, where people are payed 20p a day and we gave 'aid' to do our best to maintain control over Haiti. Haiti has been in trouble long before the earthquake. British, US and more multi-national corporations (however, it is mainly the US and Brazilian armies, although the quake did allow the UK to send troops under the guise of help) etc etc... It's a long story, but it's right there on Google, go beyond CNN, Wikipedia and The Telegraph and you can find it.
Churchill quotes: "I admire men who stand up for their country... he had a perfect right, to be a patriotic German" on talking about Hitler in 1932.
This is his criticism of Leon Trotsky from 1937: "Who was Trotsky? He was a Jew. He was still a Jew, nothing could get over that."
Sounds like a lovely fella, doesn't he?
A little extra, he said "Many people admired the work which the extraordinary man Signor Mussolini had done for his country."
And "He united his country and rebuilt its greatness. Apart from that he reconciled the past with present, and broadened the life of the working people..." — that's him talking of another fascist, Franco.
By the way, yes I do know what the fuck I am talking about.
And yes Liverpool was built on the slave trade. However there is much to be proud about with Liverpool, a history of fighting and most scousers have a connection to them, notably the dockers strikes, and this is what Liverpool heritage feels like, not remembering or celebrating the slave trade.
It's not that the history happened that turns me against England, it's the fact that the history is still celebrated.
It's not that the history happened that turns me against England, it's the fact that the history is still celebrated.
No Fran – you really don't.
Googling quotes,and presenting them totally out of context only further exposes your lack of argument.
And multi-national corporations do not represent the country of England, as the clue is in the word "multi."
And again, how does that impact on you supporting football players? It doesn't, but you dug your hole, and then felt compelled to find credible reasons for it — and comprehensively failed..
So both RSA and Liverpool people remember and regret with appropriate respect their historic folly, but English people somehow don't possess the same reflective gene accordingly?
Do you find anything redeeming about this country, or is your argument, as I suspect, totally lacking in nuance?
Think I've answered my own question.
Googling quotes,and presenting them totally out of context only further exposes your lack of argument.
And multi-national corporations do not represent the country of England, as the clue is in the word "multi."
And again, how does that impact on you supporting football players? It doesn't, but you dug your hole, and then felt compelled to find credible reasons for it — and comprehensively failed..
So both RSA and Liverpool people remember and regret with appropriate respect their historic folly, but English people somehow don't possess the same reflective gene accordingly?
Do you find anything redeeming about this country, or is your argument, as I suspect, totally lacking in nuance?
Think I've answered my own question.
If Capello asked you to play for England, would you turn him down?
Google was not involved in those quotes... I own Step by Step,1936-1939 as I studied Churchill for A-Level history some 8 years ago. My assignment for that was a title I chose myself: Has Churchill's role as war leader altered his legacy as a politician?
I got an A for A-level history.
Could you explain the context I have got so wrong on these quotes?
And no, multi-nationals aren't soley based in England, very true, but a large majority are English-ran, supported by English governments and infact English governments force countries to adopt policies that help multi-nationals. It's Milton Freedman's economic policy, also known as Thatcherism and New Labour... immediate examples, Chile and Iraq... there are many more.
And yes I probably would play football if Capello asked, I would also play football if Dunga asked, or Perreira asked. I still like football, I just don't hold passionate beliefs in supporting a nation. If Alex Ferguson said, "Hey fella, wanna play for Utd today?" I think I would... does that make me a Mun U fan?
I got an A for A-level history.
Could you explain the context I have got so wrong on these quotes?
And no, multi-nationals aren't soley based in England, very true, but a large majority are English-ran, supported by English governments and infact English governments force countries to adopt policies that help multi-nationals. It's Milton Freedman's economic policy, also known as Thatcherism and New Labour... immediate examples, Chile and Iraq... there are many more.
And yes I probably would play football if Capello asked, I would also play football if Dunga asked, or Perreira asked. I still like football, I just don't hold passionate beliefs in supporting a nation. If Alex Ferguson said, "Hey fella, wanna play for Utd today?" I think I would... does that make me a Mun U fan?
Ha ha, Fran, I think judging by the numerous spelling mistakes, you've had a few too many sherbets tonight lad!!
Fair play to you though..
My point on Churchill is that whatever the private sensibilities of the man (and nobody can say for sure), the fact is that under his premiership, the UK took in huge numbers of Jewish refugees, and in this case, actions speak louder than words. This is why I highlighted the article in the Jerusalem Post, no less...
I agree with you on exploitative multi-nationals too by the way. I just don't think private corporations reflect the English psyche.
Speaking of English, there is no such thing as an English government either.
But, genuinely — hats off. I do concede some of the good points you have made, and for the sake of the whole festival of fun that's about to come... Can I not persuade to you support us...Not even a little bit?!
Come On!! It's gonna be a top summer... I'll even spring for an England top for you to get you in the mood!!!
3 Lions on your shirt lad...
Fair play to you though..
My point on Churchill is that whatever the private sensibilities of the man (and nobody can say for sure), the fact is that under his premiership, the UK took in huge numbers of Jewish refugees, and in this case, actions speak louder than words. This is why I highlighted the article in the Jerusalem Post, no less...
I agree with you on exploitative multi-nationals too by the way. I just don't think private corporations reflect the English psyche.
Speaking of English, there is no such thing as an English government either.
But, genuinely — hats off. I do concede some of the good points you have made, and for the sake of the whole festival of fun that's about to come... Can I not persuade to you support us...Not even a little bit?!
Come On!! It's gonna be a top summer... I'll even spring for an England top for you to get you in the mood!!!
3 Lions on your shirt lad...
Just for you, Kevin, as it was a rather fun and random discussion (considering the original post).
I'll stick £15 on England to win it — so, if they do, I'll celebrate with everyone else!
I'll stick £15 on England to win it — so, if they do, I'll celebrate with everyone else!
£15 wins me £111, done and done.
And on a day like today, it'd be rude not to have a few shandies now, wouldn't it?
And on a day like today, it'd be rude not to have a few shandies now, wouldn't it?
Just as I do that, I realise that, If england do win, it will be Steven fucking Gerrard who lifts the trophy. The image of him lifting the trophy will be there for decades to come. My oh my... I feel sick.
Fran and Kevin - hats off to you both. That was a very entertaining discussion, ending with a handshake as well. Great stuff.
Hang on Fran, I'll get you a bucket...
Hang on Fran, I'll get you a bucket...
Without a ball being kicked in anger, we have lost the captain, and so Michael Dawson is flying out tonight.
So there is one of the walking wounded out... only King, Barry, and Rooney's ankle to go.
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1 Posted 01/06/2010 at 14:03:01
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Oh well.... USA! USA! USA!