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Shambles

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I am so pleased that Baines and Jagielka are not part of this shambles that is the England football team. What an embarrassment! Overpaid, overrated and under-talented. I have just listened to the Capelo interview after the game. How can this man communicate with the players... his command of English is totally inadequate. The sooner we appoint an English manager the better in my opinion.

Carragher booked again, the only good thing being that he misses the next game. What on earth is he doing in SA?
Ron  Haslam, Portugal     Posted 18/06/2010 at 22:26:44

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Brian Williams
1   Posted 18/06/2010 at 22:48:22

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If you watched the coverage of one of the worst England displays in living memory on ITV you will have seen and heard Rooney as he left the pitch make a comment having a go at the England supporters booing their team. It was a somewhat derogatory comment something like "Nice to be booed by your own supporters, some supporters eh?" or something along those lines....

Well, Wayne, when you've travelled thousands of miles at your own expense after saving for maybe a couple of years (less than a DAY'S wage to the likes of you) to do so you have the right to boo when you watch a team of overpaid prima donnas show what appeared in YOUR case to be an almost lack of interest. I watched Rooney stop short, back out, and not bother on more than one occasion and generally "stink" like the rest of the team.

So in the wise words of the poet, Wayne...

FUCK YOU!

Kunal Desai
2   Posted 18/06/2010 at 22:55:10

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When does the Premier League kick off again? Aug 14th... I think'll I'll be more pumped up for Ewood Park away.

The national team smacks of signs of desperation. The inclusion of the likes of Carragher, Upson, Heskey to name but a few just shows Capello and the set up haven't a clue, especially when you have one of the most creative players sitting on the bench in Joe Cole. May as well fly home tonight.
Charles King
3   Posted 18/06/2010 at 22:53:03

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Rooney should be sent home regarding his remarks. I now wait for the "siege mentality" to kick in followed by the "unlucky / undeserved" KO against better opposition to mollify the media and continue our 'head in the sands' approach to football in England.
Dermot Ryan
4   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:01:20

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So I want the guy who ridiculed Gavin on a earlier thread for suggesting Algeria would give England a game:

1. To come on here and apologize to Gavin;
2. To send in a YouTube link of him eating his Union Jack hat.

And the cheek of Rooney sarcastically mouthing that "It's great when your own fans boo you"!! What the fuck does he expect? A round of applause. That was an appalling display. Compare that gutless performance to the Americans' fight back.
Dermot Ryan
5   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:04:45

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And remember, if Baines and Jags or Rodwell had been included, you might have seen a better performance. More passion. Less arrogance.

I think a lot of these players just don't rate non-club football. Read Schnejder's dismissive comments about the World Cup. I'm sure there's plenty in the England dressing room who feel the same way. Not so with the Serbian player who leapt over the barrier into the arms of his fans. I understand folks being suspicious of the nationalism of the tournament, but if you are going to put on a shirt, play with a little fucking conviction.

Kevin Gillen
6   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:12:00

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Osman and Hibbo should be England regulars after that performance.
Neil Patten
7   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:10:35

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Our players in the main seem to have a little bit more respect for fans. Maybe that is Moyes or my own biased views but the comments of Cahill and Howard were heartening to hear earlier this week.

It disgusts me to watch that bunch of pampered English pricks playing like they did tonight and then coming out with pathetic excuses (except to be fair Stevie Me). And then the painful protecting by the old boys club of ex players like Southgate, etc.

As for that pampered little fat prick who displayed all that is bad about modern day footballers in a second straight to the camera... Go and crawl back under a rock you twat. Why do we support this crap and sponsor the lifestyles of these shits?

Everton have disappointed me many times over the years but I struggle to support these English wankers at the best of times. After tonight I just can't stand anything about the game...

Roll on Brazil vs Ivory Coast on Sunday for some proper entertainment!

Drunken rant over...
Ste Traverse
8   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:30:57

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Rooney has always been a gobby tosser. He's so arrogant he believes he's above criticism. I'm hardly a big England fan but the lads and girls who have gone out there to support the team have every right to boo that pathetic performance.
Lee Kidd
9   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:32:31

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I said it before the USA game — the team isn't good enough. I'm no fan of the England setup who are over-rated, egotistical pansies almost to a man, and if England reached the Quarter Final then in reality (instead of Imaginationland that most "Ingerlund" fans are living in) that would be a remarkable achievement.

And as for Wayne Rooney's comments... that is exactly why I actually laugh at Evertonians in particular who support England. The England team has nothing but derision for it's fans. England as a whole has absolute disdain for scousers. This World Cup embarrassment is the best thing that could have happened for this country, as maybe it'll reign in the arrogant pricks "darn sarf". Even if by some miracle England beat Slovenia, honestly, who gives a rat's arse? They'll get mutilated by any side of Serbia's quality or higher anyway.

Leighton dodged a bullet by avoiding being associated with that shower led by the biggest tool of an Italian manager in Capello.

(Again, same views I expressed BEFORE the USA game which is on a mailbag thread elsewhere — no knee-jerk reaction here!)
Sean McCarthy
10   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:33:13

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Kevin Gillen's attempt at humour... Tony Hibbert is a better defender than Glenn Johnson ever will be. And as Rafa would say... that's FACT!!!
Ciarán McGlone
11   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:38:28

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I'll never understand the mentality of booing your own players on the pitch..I guess it's deep rooted in the the English psyche that they have a god given right to win...I suppose th French show it as well..but they do actually win sometimes..so their belief is understandable...

As a neutral what I saw was bad managerial choices and a great effort by Algeria...

Rooney was right. As much as it pains me to say it..
Kevin Gillen
12   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:44:29

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Right with you on that one, Sean, much underrated Hibbo.
Lee Kidd
13   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:43:55

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Ciaran, those fans have paid thousands of pound to see those players in South Africa, and the lot of them - every single one - looked like they couldn't be arsed.

They saved up for months and paid what is about one or two days wages for those players to fly out there, taking holidays from work...

EVERY single right to boo them. I'm sure if you paid £10'000 for a holiday and your hotel room resembled a Vietnamese prisoner of war shack, you'd complain. For those fans, they're simply consumers complaining about a complete lack of effort from the players.
Ciarán McGlone
14   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:47:05

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I wasn't aware that paying to go on a footballing holiday somehow entitles you to a certain level of football..

The fans of every country have paid to be there...There is no god given entitlement to win, or play good football. That's just plain arrogance. There were two teams on the pitch.

I simply will not ever understand the mentality of booing a football team you claim to support - while they are on the pitch.
Phil Roberts
15   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:48:14

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That was so stressful in the last 15-20 minutes because I thought England were going to have one lucky break and score the goal that won the match 1-0.

But thankfully they didn't and so got the result they deserved from their performance. Anything else would have been a total injustice on Algeria.
Ciarán McGlone
16   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:51:53

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Oh and by the way Lee, the booing started quite early in the second half.
Lee Kidd
17   Posted 18/06/2010 at 23:55:01

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It's not about the level and it's not about the team winning - it's about effort. As a fan, one thing I can't stand is when footballers (paid, by the way, by fans who come and see them play) act like they can't be arsed.

Even if England had lost tonight, if the fans had seen a fighting performance, there wouldn't have been a single boo (or decent people wouldn't have booed anyway).

I understand your viewpoint that you shouldn't boo players and should cheer them on, but we're only human - you can only cheer something you like! That's what a cheer is. You'd have to be a downright moron to be able to wholeheartedly cheer that performance as an Englishman tonight - especially after paying thousands of pounds to watch the game.

If the team isn't making the effort, why should the fans?
Jamie Sweet
18   Posted 19/06/2010 at 00:06:22

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Wayne Rooney needs to get back in his caravan and stay in there! That was one of the worst performances I've seen - he even made Heskey look decent by comparison!
Ciarán McGlone
19   Posted 19/06/2010 at 00:05:08

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I don't know how you measure effort, but I can't reconcile your analysis with what I saw on that pitch....

England tried... they just aren't a great team. Most of them were running around like blue arsed flies — with simply little end result.
Lee Kidd
20   Posted 19/06/2010 at 00:15:00

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I didn't see much running to be fair. I saw a lot of posession holding in their own half, then direct passing up top with a stupid flick/half arsed pass the end result. Guess it's all about interpretation, but I personally didn't see many solid tackles, or runs from deep to get on the end of a ball or any player actually wanting the ball to grab the game by the scruff of the neck. Nobody even tried to do that, that's the concern for English fans.

I'm actually anti-England so seeing them fail makes me laugh, and I also hate the arrogant section of English fans too, but I do feel sorry for them because in their shoes I'd be absolutely livid after that showing.
Lee Kidd
21   Posted 19/06/2010 at 00:27:32

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On another note, Emile Heskey has to be one of the worst strikers to ever "grace" a World Cup. He's making Altidore look like Pele!
Alex Kociuba
22   Posted 19/06/2010 at 00:21:30

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Haven't England been shit for years and years and years? Answer: yes.
James Stewart
23   Posted 19/06/2010 at 00:23:16

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I'm with Lee on this one as I actually quite enjoy seeing the current England crop fail miserably. They really are piss poor. And the tactics, Subs and team selection are very suspect from Capello. I am surprised people expect anything from a team with James in goal and Heskey up front though.

As for Rooney, I hear Ciaran's argument and generally tend to agree with most things he says but in my opinion Rooney was an idiot. Just walk off and keep silent! It shows disrespect and contempt to paying supporters. You just have to accept fans are entitled to boo or cheer as they please. Be the better man and prove the booers wrong on the pitch rather than mouthing off to TV cameras. A lack of class and dignity but then who could expect any of that from the England squad! Certainly no English gentlemen among that lot.

I thought the boos were actually quite a pleasant sonic change from the bloody vuvuzelas!
Alex Kociuba
24   Posted 19/06/2010 at 00:32:42

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I'm not so much anti-England, but I physically can't bring myself to support any other club. Especially sitting in the pub with Liverpool supporters and typical England flag-waving neutrals cheering on the same team. Being AT an England game listening to that fucking band surrounded by people with face paint chanting Gerrard's/Rooney's name, doing Mexican waves would physically make me sick. I'm anti-England after all.
Lyndon Lloyd
25   Posted 19/06/2010 at 01:05:45

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I'm completely with Lee on this. You pay to watch, you get to boo if you feel the players have let you down. I've done it at Goodison (a horrible 2-0 home defeat to Coventry in the 1990s, if I recall correctly) and had I made the journey to Cape Town to watch that terrible performance, I'd have booed too. How else do you translate to the players your disgust? You could leave but no one on the field is going to notice.

Moyes was booed for putting Hibbert on against Spurs a couple of seasons back and then losing the match and you can bet your bottom dollar he took that on board and to heart.
Brendan O'Doherty
26   Posted 19/06/2010 at 01:26:50

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Excuse me for indulging in a bit of 'schadenfreude' but why are people surprised ? This was all so predictable, just as it was in previous World Cups and European Championships. There's a load of media hype surrounding Ingerland which is built up to the point of infallibility. Games such as tonight's are just massive reality checks for their fans, who shouldn't get caught up in it in the first place, though in fairness, many on here don't. But as an outsider, it all seems very obvious - Ingerland are not as good as they think they are. It reminds me a lot of our unbeloved cousins across the park - the perception is a lot different from the reality.

By the way, what's with the shirts? I mean a rugby shirt on a football player looks silly.
Gavin Ramejkis
27   Posted 19/06/2010 at 01:45:30

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As pointed out by Dermot Ryan, I commented about the complacency rife in Engerland supporters who believe the media tripe and made smug remarks about beating USA and Algeria hands down. The pre-tournament friendlies showed the squad up as slow, predicatable and susceptible to schoolboy errors. Mexico should have beaten them, Japan scored 3 goals including two for them. The media mince about how they are better than anyone else as if the world still has shit national sides made up of amateurs but that hasn't been the case for years now.

One look at the squad should have set alarm bells ringing asking how long since Heskey scored for them? Has Plug from the Bash Street Kids ever scored against a "big side"? Why the insistence to wait on Barry's injury, has he been EPL player of the season? Ledley King openly admits he can't play football with his own kids in his garden but gets called up and plays. Carragher is an aged one trick pony; fouls anyone that jogs past him yet gets a call up. Fat Frank has stunk for Engerland for months yet gets games.

I've pinned my colours on this site as fancying the Germans but hold my hand up today, even given the bad sending off the Serbs simply wanted the game more than they did and got the victory they deserved. USA come back from 2-0 down and give their paying fans something to support. Engerland and France look to have turned up thinking they deserve to walk straight into the next round and are both a disgrace and should just pack up and leave.

I won't hold my breath for a told you so apology as predicting Engerland is way too easy.
Rahman Talib
28   Posted 19/06/2010 at 02:36:40

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Word on the street is after last night's performance, the English FA is considering to give the English Manager post to David Moyes.

Reason: DM has a reputation of creating something out of nothing. Cappello on the other hand acheives nothing with something.

I think Cappello already knew that if he screws up, DM will be his replacement. So that's why he rejected Baines, just to spite DM.

On another note, based on last night's performance, even the likes of Vaughan would have made much difference compared to the "dicks" they got playing up front.

Never mind Baines, Jagielka, Osman, Hibbert, Rodwell etc.

THE ENGLISH TEAM SUCKED BIG TIME.
Jay Harris
29   Posted 19/06/2010 at 00:59:51

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I think the problem is that England players represent that bling bling "£100,000 a week" culture that so many fans find distasteful at best. So, when they fail, it feels right to boo and jeer them — in fact, some people revelling in their misfortune, especially if you have a foreign manager that cant speak English and speaks with a forked tongue ("I'll pick players on form" and then goes with the same old clique that haven't had a decent game amongst them in the last 6 months)...

I would rather support USA or Australia who at least have players who play with their hearts instead of their egos.
Julian Wait
30   Posted 19/06/2010 at 03:31:48

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Agree with the other posts, it's hard to get behind this team the way they act and the fact it's core is a bunch of current, ex, and wannabee RS ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/jun/19/england-algeria-world-cup

It would have been better to have seen a similar critique of StevieMe when he was (not) in front of Baines in the pre-tournament period ... the problem is the same though. Agree with post above, let's see Cole in there and maybe push StevieMe up alongside Rooney. And do you blame him or Capello... surely he can see what's happening?
David Chait
31   Posted 19/06/2010 at 08:17:28

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Yeah the team is calling out for Joe Cole. Even Ashley Cole is being left high and dry by Gerrard and is hardly having his normal impact.

Maybe because we were the only ones concentrating on Baines that we saw the issue; this team is so unbalanced its nuts... but what do we know?
Gary Tudor
32   Posted 19/06/2010 at 08:29:08

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The team has got fundamental issues and at this rate expect a player to speak out soon.

Lampard: Invisible; Drop him.
Rooney: ineffective... But needs service; I also think Alex Ferguson has worn him out!
Carragher: too slow and past it.
Heskey: useless — my 8-year-old has a better touch.
Joe Cole: Get him in the team now.

Cappello said when he came into the team management that he would pick players on form. This has not been done and he will loose credibility with the players. With a performance like that again, he will be looking for a job!

The 4-5-1 that Everton play is much maligned however, it is exactly the system England need to employ immediately. How can Capello not see it?
Garry Martin
33   Posted 19/06/2010 at 08:17:21

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What I saw tonight was the typical "cliche" set up we call England. How must players who had a good Premier League season (but didn't get in the squad) feel about the "cliche" that played tonight?

The majority of England players on that field only turned up to support their outside interests i.e. football boot / energy drink / shaving / football columns etc etc. And how the hell can a manager who can't speak English convey his tactics & passion to to the players???

Anyway rant over & COYB.

Dave Roberts
34   Posted 19/06/2010 at 08:07:34

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It's very easy for Ciaran to say that England are not a great team. Maybe he is right but I don't remember anybody saying that when they were sweeping all before them during qualification. Their performance against Croatia especially was superlative. No, it's more complicated than that Ciaran as much as it may please an Irishman to see England possibly return home next week.

What we have to ask ourselves are questions like:-

Was that really the player we know Rooney to be out there last night?
Was that side-foot balloon from 25 yards out that sailed over the stand really what Stevie G La is all about?
Was that the same Frank Lampard who pulls all the strings for the English double winners?
Was that really the Terry that we all know as one of the best central defenders in the World?

Why is it that that spine of the team is playing so badly in South Africa when not only do we know that they are all great players but that they show it virtually every week in the Premier League?

The old adage that great individuals don't necessarily make great teams is true but then during qualification they started to look at least as if they could potentially be great. Why did it not move forward from there?

The problem runs deep. Whether it is constant failures in penalty shoot-outs or failing to live up to expectations in games as a whole or totally losing the plot like last night, it happens time and time again. As tournaments approach, performances tail off and as expectation and hype rises then, in one way or another, the whole structure falls apart.

I have never been to watch an England team live. But I do consider myself to be an England 'supporter' because I am English. I like to see them do well. In football terms, Everton are by far the priority for me but it assists us all, and the whole English game if we have a national side up there scrapping with the best.

It is not the whole answer but I think Beckenbauer had a point in what he said — but not for the reason he said it. The English game is about a style of play that is becoming increasingly rare in the Premier League. English players at club level seem to be able to slot into the 'continental style' assisted no doubt by the foreign players around them as well as foreign managers. Put 11 English players in a team and ask them to play a game that is not about passion, pace and directness, however, and it is never consistently successful.

I think a root and branch inquiry is required. Not just to try to find ways of acquiring a winning England football team, but to find out what is happening both TO the development of English players and IN the development of English players. The game has got to be investigated at the Academy and youth levels as far as English kids are concerned in order to find out why Beckenbauer felt able to suggest that the Premier League is swamped with better foreign players and why, notwithstanding the odd great England performance, he is probably right. I don't care how swamped the game here is by foreign players but I do worry if that leads to the failure of development in English players. We do not seem able to manage opening up the game to players from other countries while successfully managing the development of our own. That has got to change.
Franny Porter
35   Posted 19/06/2010 at 09:24:32

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Although I dont condone Rooney's dig at the fans, it is a known fact that the majority of Ing-er-land fans are knobheads who boo the team at the drop of a hat. These idiots booed Jamie Carragher when he came on against Mexico, then started singing his name when he made one fucking tackle. They are like the bellends who go to the Big Brother studios just to boo whatever arsehole is evicted that week.

Roll on Blackburn....
James Bowman
36   Posted 19/06/2010 at 09:48:42

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Any team which insists in putting Heskey up front and says he's a key player to the team can only be setting out to play long balls. That was never going to work and has been highlighted by the Kaiser.

The first game saw James Millner play on the left when quite obviously ill, whilst Adam Johnson sat at home! Even Baines's involvement would have given us the option to push Cashley forward.

Compare Rooney to when he was still a blue back in the Euros. He was electric, full of energy... but now can hardly run 2 steps. My highlight was when Barry and Gerrard stood looking at each other in the middle of the pitch, neither having a clue what they should be doing.

Carragher and King have both been terrible decisions and why on earth have we had to wait this long for Defoe? Joe Cole is wasted and Glen Johnson, £17million!? Hibbo gets a lot of stick but he would have given so much more than a fashionable haircut!

Time someone had the balls to break this lot up and make them start earning their places...
Mike Gwyer
37   Posted 19/06/2010 at 09:42:00

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Dave Roberts; Fair comment but reality is in the hands of the holder: Gerrard does not fit into the English line-up — with the RS he hangs off the striker and basically gets his usual 10 to 15 free kicks per game by doing what all the "elite English" players do and that is con the EPL refs, especially at Anfield.

John Terry is definitely NOT one of the best CD in the EPL, the guy is a thug and once again has the ability to con refs as he is one of the "elite English" players. Terry gets away with murder, especially at home games, but stick him in a game against a top international side like, let's see... Algeria or the US of A, and he struggles as he concedes free kick after free kick.

Rooney is a highly psyched player and for me he knows that the English setup does not include scousers as it's geared up for the wads of money Londoners. Additionally, he hates the national anthem, seems to have a hatred for the supporters, and at times he seems to not give a fuck. I mean he is the Number 1 striker for England yet last night I saw him starting attacks in England's own half — he is obviously fed up with the attacking capabilities and options that England have.

We need to get real — England cannot string two or three passes together (except the Terry to Cole to Terry to GK then back to Terry — all at 4 mph). Most passing at this WC has been at speed and has proceeded from their own half into the opposition half.

Not to worry, though; we will soon have Gerrard and Terry with their best chums Clanttenburg and Dean lording it once again.
James I'Anson
38   Posted 19/06/2010 at 10:39:47

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Looking at the bright side, these are the players that our current squad have got to be better than to win trophies. Fuckin' simple if you ask me. Roll on August.
Phil Bellis
39   Posted 19/06/2010 at 10:36:05

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Ciaran... "That's just plain arrogance" — Must have rubbed off from the players. Besides Lord Rooney's disparaging comments earlier, did you hear Stevie Me, whilst admitting Engalnd didn't play well ("in the final third", of couse), stating the game was "Algeria's World Cup Final"?

One over-riding criticism from the ex-players and pundits was Gerrard opting out and leaving Cole exposed, having to cope with 2 on 1. What were we lot going on about when Baines was villified? Exactly.

Time for the England Players' Private Members' Club to be disbanded and the FA sorted out... £6 million a year? — fuckin `ell — I'll do the job just as badly for £1 million.

Dave Roberts
40   Posted 19/06/2010 at 10:59:44

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Mike Gwyer

Fair enough but that doesn't explain why in the qualification stages England consistently outperformed sides that were better than many in the World Cup now. Croatia are a very good side that would have qualified from just about any other group yet England tore them apart as they did throughout the qualification stages to all their opposition.

I was really making two points that I may not have been clear enough about.

Whether you or any other individual agrees or not, those excellent performances were built around the spine of Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard and Terry who all played very well at that stage. What is it in the England psyche that causes these collapses in tournaments time and time again?

Whether or not you agree, this same spine are the only players available today that could in any sense be deemed 'world class''. My point about the shortcomings in the development of young English players is that where are the replacements for these players going to come from? I can only see two 'kids' who at present could possibly make it to a position were they could hold their head up in a few years in international circles. They are Ashley Young and our very own Jack Rodwell. That is simply not good enough in the nation that invented football and that has pretensions to be the best. Something is going drastically wrong somewhere and it needs to be fixed quickly.
Phil Bellis
41   Posted 19/06/2010 at 11:24:22

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Dave;
When you've got young, untried English players with apparent potential rejecting the chance of joining a club which will likely give them a chance (let's say, Everton, e.g.) opting to boost the reserve teams or compete in the league of nations acadamy of a `big' PL club for extra cash, well... there's part of the answer to what's wrong.
Michael Brien
42   Posted 19/06/2010 at 11:47:00

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Too many of the England players appear to be in the team because of their reputations. When was the last time that Lampard did anything special when he played for England?

I watched the game on ITV — I thought the commentators were rubbish — Algeria hardly got a mention from them, Andy Townsend was giving a fitness report on Barry so it seemed every 10 minutes. As an Irish supporter I was quite annoyed with him — to hear him talk you would have been forgiven for thinking that Algeria were just there to make up the numbers.

I thought the decision to drop Green was a bad one — as David Moyes said on BBC TV on Thursday, everybody makes mistakes. I think Capello hasn't done anything to build up Green's confidence.

Mike Mulhall
43   Posted 19/06/2010 at 11:48:44

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It may be a case that Capello has given a few players a dressing down in the build-up to the tournament and they are expressing "player power" as if to say, "Hang on, you need us on your side; without us, you wont last five minutes!"

Capello's approach may well work in club football but the sad fact is he doesn't have that luxury when he has to pick from a national pool of players!

David S Shaw
44   Posted 19/06/2010 at 12:14:01

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I wonder what Rooney thought when he played for us and we regularly booed them off at half time as well as full time!

Andrew Keatley
45   Posted 19/06/2010 at 12:50:24

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Have to agree with Ciaran McGlone (#11 and beyond); I think that Rooney's reaction — while perhaps ill-judged — is not real reason for widespread vilification. In fact, I think it just detracts from the central issue — the poor team performance. The call for him to be sent home (Charles King #3) is an embarassing knee-jerk reaction that benefits nobody.

England's fans and media love to apportion blame — remember people burning an effigy of Beckham after 1998 — and the looming presence of a critical public does not seem to allow the players to play with confidence.

And I struggle to understand the belief that International football has to be played in a certain style. Yes, possession is "key"; but currently all of the England players play in the Premier League — a fast-paced, high-energy league in which they all (supposedly) excel. And yet we play a style and tempo at International level that suits precisely none of them — and shows them up to be technically inferior to pretty much every other International side.

Watching players like Gerrard and Lampard jog aimlessly around the pitch — going against all of their instincts for their club sides — is a power-shift of Samsonesque proportions. And as for the 23-man squad selection... quite why Adam Johnson — a young man without the seasoned fear of expectation that comes from playing for England in the past, and yet with the ability to beat a man from a standing start — is not in the squad absolutely defies belief.

Andrew Keatley
46   Posted 19/06/2010 at 13:24:43

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And as for Rahman Talib's (#28) post... ridiculous (hopefully deliberately or else I despair).

The idea that Capello would spite Moyes by not picking Baines is hokum of the highest order.

What street is it that you live on (and that these rumours are doing the rounds)? Sesame...
Dave Roberts
47   Posted 19/06/2010 at 13:25:30

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Concerning Rooney's reaction to the booing (and Lampard's if you noticed how disgustedly he looked up at the crowd), and whether or not you agree with it, it tells me that some of these players don't live in the real world.

Players are well paid all over the world compared to most supporters but none more so than here. It's here that they live the 'Bentley lifestyle' ... Even the WAGS have Bentleys.

What the England supporters spent on getting to the World Cup would represent about half a day's pay to these players but for the fans themselves it is an awful lot of hard earned and hard saved cash and South Africa is a long way from home.

The players just don't seem to see the irony and the injustice in that. Perhaps booing was not the correct thing to do but how else could the fans ease their frustration and disappointment? If I had been there I might have been particularly upset when Rooney failed to control a ball played to him just outside the area. It broke loose to an Algerian defender who proceeded to run up the wing with it. Rooney just raised his arms in disgust and started walking back up the pitch! At that moment I would have been very angry indeed and might have been tempted to boo myself. The least I would expect is that they try.
Brian Williams
48   Posted 19/06/2010 at 13:57:30

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To Ciaran (14)

"I simply will not ever understand the mentality of booing a football team you claim to support - while they are on the pitch".

When else COULD you boo them?

The bottom line is that the paying public, whether it be through Sky subscription, season ticket buyers, match ticket buyers, merchandise buyers (or whatever), indirectly pay the wages of those players. If the public stopped watching and buying then football would fade. Not likely to happen I know but it still stands as a reasonable argument.

I personally therefore, like lots of others, feel that when you watch a performance of very little desire, very little basic ability, and very little decent quality football, for which you have paid lots of "hard earned" cash that you have the right to show your discontent and let those who are the cause of that discontent know how you feel.

Us English aren't ALL arrogant and expect only to turn up to win the game, tournament or whatever..but the majority of us recognise abject "shite" when we see it and that was abject shite....

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!
Mike McLean
49   Posted 19/06/2010 at 13:56:49

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Back in the 50s, a foreign manager explained his team's win over England by saying, "The lions in winter are the lambs in spring".

In other words, after a season in which English players huff and puff their way round the pitch, substituting physical graft for technical ability, they are fit for nothing come the late spring / summer games. This explains their ability to get through the qualifying matched with relative ease, and their perennial failures at tournaments.

These days their situation is compounded by the public's willingness to believe an over-excited, nationalistic red top media, and their subsequent feeling of deflation when the lambs lie down for the slaughter. No wonder they boo!
David Hallwood
50   Posted 19/06/2010 at 14:41:07

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I think it's an indication of English player's limitations is that none of them play in the technically superior Spanish & Italian leagues, indeed I cannot think of an English player that has gone to either Italy or Spain, and imposed themselves on the team a lá Zidane at Real or Gullit at Milan.

Coupled with the fact that the national team are rated 8th in the world (which turns the argument that the best teams have the best players who in turn are generally the best paid on its head) and we haven't won anything for 44 years, which doesn't look like it's going to end anytime soon.
Ciarán McGlone
51   Posted 19/06/2010 at 14:49:14

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Brian, I'm not saying they don't have right to boo; Freedom of speech is alive and well, and thank god for it... Although I think your argument about financial reward doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Expression is not dependent on financial outlay.

What I said was that simply don't understand it... What good does booing your team quite close to the beginning of the second half provide?

In my book, such behaviour is not constructive, helpful or even functional. All it demonstrates is a demand. People may have a right to have their opinions known at any time... but exercising that right must be accompanied by a degree of sense.
John Gee
52   Posted 19/06/2010 at 15:02:07

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In my opinion, the English fans had every right to boo as that performance was amateurish. Algeria were no great shakes but they displayed purpose and derserved all 3 points.

I also think that the English fans deserve this standard of football, it's fucking idiotic to spend that amount of money to go over to watch a few matches by a team that have, consistently over the last few years, played terrible football. I find it impossible to cheer a deflected shot by that twat Gerrard or the equally po-faced Lampard. I can't motivate myself to swallow the line that Terry is a man-mountain, lion-hearted defender. Or that Barry is the indispensable water-carrier.

Anyway, so far it's been the worst international tournament I've ever watched. The football has been crap and the atmosphere is destroyed by the vuvuzela's. They may be ingrained in South African culture but so is car-jacking... doesn't make it right or good.

Roll on August.

Gerry Quinn
53   Posted 19/06/2010 at 15:52:49

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The attitude of the players always, in every World Cup, appears to be directly related to the media hype surrounding them. Point in case was McManaman's comment post Algeria — quote: "England should have beaten both of these poor teams," unquote... What a tosser comment to make and typical of the selfish "me, me, me" mentality of English football players.

The majority of teams in the World Cup have players from highly competitive leagues in Spain, Italy and UK. The world has continued to improve — the English haven't... and never will until they forget nineteen sixty-friggin-six and how the EPL is "supposedly" the cream!

There are very few walkover teams left in this world — get used to it before the embarrassment grows even worse. Algeria, the USA, and even Slovenia have/will prove that they are just as good as you, Inger-Lund — if not better!

Miles Wilson
54   Posted 19/06/2010 at 17:35:57

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Classless Rooney and the right to Boo!

Like all Evertonians, I remember hearing the whisperings from the club that a very special young talent was at the club. One of our own who came from a family of Evertonians and would wear the shirt with pride.

When that shot sailed over Seaman and under the bar, I was thrilled as we all were. Many other cameos followed with some great goals for club and country.

I knew that Rooney would not stay at Everton (he was always destined for one of the world's biggest clubs and the off-field scandals of brothels etc hastened his departure) but I never thought that he would leave in the manner he did.

From that point on, my opinion of him dropped... and watching him taunt the Everton support after he scored against us meant I could never again take him to my heart, no matter what he did for England.

Last night for me was his nadir. An awful, awful performance from him and then that reaction to the camera. His face twisted up like a Saturday night piss head, he spat out some sarcastic words about the "loyal support".

No matter what FA scripted apology he came out with, it was a crass, classless and totally misdirected thing to do. How dare he challenge those poor bastards who scrimped and saved to travel across the world to watch that pile of shit.

They had every right to boo that pathetic display we had to endure and had I been in the stadium I would have joined them. It was by far the most spineless and inept display so far at the World Cup. Even New Zealand had the balls to go for a late goal with far more effort than our bunch could muster.

Rooney's decision to direct his anger at the supporters shows up what is wrong with modern, pampered, spoilt bastard players — it is never their fault — it's the ball / pitch / ref / oppositions tactics / media pressure etc. They all need to have a long look at themselves as players and as men.

Colin Potter
55   Posted 19/06/2010 at 17:19:38

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Cairan is right. You go and encourage your team, before and during the game. If they play bad, you can boo them off, and maybe even demonstrate outside of the ground. Let's hope Slovenia knock the shit out of them next week.
Michael Kenrick
56   Posted 19/06/2010 at 17:57:07

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Reading this thread, I can't help feeling somewhat bemused. If I cared, I'd do a cross-check to compare how many bemoaners on here were the ones who early questioned in terms of shock and horror how English Everton supporters could turn their backs on supporting 'their' national team. Perhaps now you have your answer...

And then the nonsense about booing — and the remarkable "rules" about when it is acceptable and when it is not. For me, it's remarkably simple: You cheer and applaud your team, especially if they do something you appreciate — like score!

Conversely, if they play like shite... you boo them. It's the natural corollary of cheering and applause. Nothing at all whatsoever wrong with that. And you boo them when you are moved to — that's what emotion is about. Following football — lest we forget — includes a huge slice of emotion.

And finally, the opprobrium being heaped yet again on seemingly everyone's favourite scapegoat: Rooney. What he said was a perfectly natural and reasonable reaction and it demonstrated the effectiveness of the booing — which is only as it should be (see above!) — of course, no-one likes to be booed and so it gets a reaction.

Irrespective of excuses for his poor performance, the idea that he should somehow apologise to Ingerlund fans who of their own volition chose to traipse down to South Africa to follow the team... well, I think that's me back full circle to my first point above.

Charles King
57   Posted 19/06/2010 at 17:43:10

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Rooney utters the words "loyalty" complaining about his "own fans".
Is there a better definition of irony?
David S Shaw
58   Posted 19/06/2010 at 18:21:50

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Booing may be constructive. Brian Clough said that some players need an arm round their shoulder and some need a kick up the arse.

Booing is the fans' kick up the arse, it is their way of telling them off. I'm sure the manager told them off as well so why can't the fans?
Dave Roberts
59   Posted 19/06/2010 at 18:25:12

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Michael, what is the difference between traipsing to South Africa to watch the team you support and traipsing to Goodison to watch a team you support? I'll tell you...it's a damn sight fucking harder and a damn sight more expensive. I get the impression you attempt to denigrate England supporters for making a tremendous effort to support the team they follow (as well as their club side in many cases). They should be admired not ridiculed, you prat.

Going to South Africa is not something that even I as someone who benignly supports England from an armchair would choose to do but I damn well admire those England supporters who chose to do so. That is support of the highest order whether you agree with it or not.

Maybe I missed something in an earlier thread but I have not read anything on here that suggested anybody expected an apology from Rooney, just that he should try harder that's all...as should the rest of them.

I know you don't live in England anymore and only watch footy on the box but can I remind you that those of us who stayed over here live in England, not Ingerlund and if your foreign exile has led you to disrepect this country at least do us the fucking courtesy of spelling it's name right.
Lyndon Lloyd
60   Posted 19/06/2010 at 18:52:22

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Dave Roberts: I have not read anything on here that suggested anybody expected an apology from Rooney, just that he should try harder that's all

And I think that's the nub of it. The USA's gutsy performance yesterday was thrilling to watch and was rewarded with an equaliser and what should have been a winner.

Likewise, Australia battled against unnecessary adversity again (a red card should be for intent not happenstance) today and could so easily have beaten the odds with a better finish from Wilkshire.

The respective fans of those countries can be proud of the way their players acquitted themselves; the same can very definitely be said of England.

As has been argued above, they should, on paper, have beaten Algeria but the Africans wanted it more.

I should clarify while I'm here that I agree that booing the team *during* the game is counterproductive and that booing them off is more appropriate, letting them know in no uncertain terms that they've let you down and giving them something to think about ahead of the next match.
Dave Roberts
61   Posted 19/06/2010 at 19:11:15

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......and anyway Rooney has just apologised.
Brian Williams
62   Posted 19/06/2010 at 18:38:37

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It's a natural human reaction when one feels that one's been let down and one wants to show one's frustration and dissatisfaction.

With regard to my argument not standing up to scrutiny (Ciaran) nobody's argumunent on here seem to stand up to your scrutiny.

My point was that when someone is remunerated as handsomely as the England team are then one expects, if not a certain level of success, then certainly a certain level of effort...in other words one's money's worth!

We (the Enland supporters among us) didn't get that and wanted our feelings known.

I don't think anybody's bothered about your idealogical and intellectual posturing over whether booing has it's merits in the modern game blah blah blah.........people were pissed off and wanted it known. It's called emotion, and by it's very definition it often defies logic, common sense or whatever..and that's not to say it's wrong!

If you got your head out of your arse once in a while you'd admit as much instead of trying to convince us all how clever you are! It's football not calculus.... Oh how the winter evenings must fly by in your house!

Dave Roberts
63   Posted 19/06/2010 at 19:12:28

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I wouldn't argue with a word you say Lyndon, that is precisely my view (see above)

What my post was about was Michael's apparent denigration (even ridicule) of England fans. That is unfair and unreasonable. These people travel all over the world to watch the team at great expense and with considerable effort. Take a look at the flags on Wednesday next. So far I have seen Everton (well I wouldn't miss that would I?), Halifax Town, Darlington, Newcastle, Yeovil, Villa, Millwall, Burnley, Blackburn, Sunderland and many others. These people have their clubs to support as well but yet they continue to support the national team actively.

While these fans may choose to do what we would not do, their efforts deserve admiration not ridicule.

Michael was way out of order there.
Michael Kenrick
64   Posted 19/06/2010 at 19:36:30

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Dave Roberts, I think you have inferred a denigration that was simply not there... and then extrapolated it out of all proportion.

When it comes to forms of support, we all have a choice, and we each make our own choice how we express that support. In my book, that merits neither respect nor denigration from others. It is what it is. I certainly feel no admiration whatsoever for England fans going to South Africa, but neither do I denigrate them for it: I am neutral on that. It's what They have chosen to do. If you chose to go to Goodison every week, good on you — that's your choice. If you chose to go to RSA, same as... In both cases, you can't go unless you can afford to go.

My point was that England fans who choose to save their pennies and go off to South Africa face the same problems of unfulfilled expectations that are the lot of virtually every football fan. They have the right to boo when those expectations are not fulfilled but in my book they have no right to expect an apology for something that is the direct result of their booing. I'm not denigrating anyone for following their side... but I am questioning this preciousness about people so easily taking offence.

We all have a choice to follow our team in the way we please and to boo them or not boo them as we are driven as individuals by our own emotions. Whether, how, and from where you or I chose to support (or not support) our chosen or inherited teams should not enter into this: that's a matter of personal choice and circumstance.

What I have no affinity for (note: not ridicule) is the current England team (see numerous previous threads). England as a Country I am quite fond of... England as a national team... not so much.

And in case you missed it, spelling the name of the national team as "Ingerlund" is a colloquial shorthand form for expressing that last thought, whether you like it or (obviously) not.

And don't call me a prat. That was way out of order.

Dave Wilson
65   Posted 19/06/2010 at 19:54:52

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Never understood how a grown man could cup his hands in front of his mouth and shout BOOO. It's bizarre behaviour, it's actually a step down from placing your thumb on your nose and wiggling your fingers.

England have gone to the World Cup to get out of the group stages, they`ll do that, then the World Cup will start.

Phil Bellis
66   Posted 19/06/2010 at 20:38:08

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Charles... spot on, I had a wry smile when I heard Rooney had mentioned loyalty.

Dave Wilson... you'd have been extremely befuddled if you'd ever seen the mass cushion-throwing at Goodison. Go home, yer bums, anyone? ... Happy days.
James Flynn
67   Posted 19/06/2010 at 19:49:31

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As an American delighted in the nil-nil, I still have to ask. Are people genuinely believing the England team "didn't try" against Algeria? I watched the game. No one would have been happier if they hadn't. But they tried the whole time. So did Algeria, which scored just as many goals; none. So, what was Algeria doing? Over-achieving?

The problem, to me, is Capello. Is he trying to prove something to SAF about deploying Rooney? I don't know how many games Rooney played for ManU last season, but it has to be a lot , right? Like 50-60?

Every game was Wayne up-front and get him the ball. Every opponent knew it, few stopped him, and all that kept him from 45 goals was injury, not opponents.

And what's with not sticking the young kids out there? Capello protecting his reputation, maybe? "I put England's best (known) out there. Can't blame me for the results". That's what I'm seeing.

Listen, as long as we're in Group, I'm all for anything helps US advance, Capello's bungling foremost. But I watched the entire game against Algeria. England's players were trying.
Alan Clarke
68   Posted 19/06/2010 at 20:46:57

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Dave Wilson, can you understand how anybody sings at games as well then? It's the same, why do grown men wail and shout anything at all?

Perhaps we should all sit still with our hands on our knees and not make any noise. If a team plays shite they need telling and booing is a good way of doing this.

England are shit because the players and the managers don't give a shit. The only thing better than booing is just not supporting them.
Phil Bellis
69   Posted 19/06/2010 at 21:03:16

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James,

I may be wrong - as I often am - but, I wonder if Rooney has just had his one `free' season as a forward?
Manchester United's game-plan changed completely with Ronaldo gone and saw Rooney eventually playing in what I believe would have been his natural position, even if he'd stayed at Goodison
For all his talent, I think he may find next season a wee bit harder; as you say, it's up to coaches/defenders to find ways to nullify him, if they can.

Mind you, Everton could never suss Ian Rush, Ian Wright or Les Ferdinand.

Michael Evans
70   Posted 19/06/2010 at 21:08:57

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My Father watched the Great Dixie, Ted Sagar et al and used to say that, in comparative terms, they didn't earn that much more than the working man at that time. Perhaps older fans could confirm that?

However, if true, it perhaps explains what's gone wrong with football. Some modern day footballers are overpaid prima donnas who have NO respect for anyone — least of all the fans.

Phil Bellis
71   Posted 19/06/2010 at 21:24:19

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Michael, I have the honour of meeting some of the 66 World Cup players at a corporate `do' each year. All the players, while stressing they don't begrudge modern players' earnings, say the current brigade are too far removed from ordinary supporters and normal life. The old players could have a drink in their locals etc

Two years back, Ramon Wilson asked me what I was earning when I used to watch him play — £15 a week, says me. Ray said he was on £135 and says that was at least twice a time-served tradesman's wage but that, at that time, I could aspire to earn that much a week as I got older...

"What's your lad on a year, compared to what Rooney earns in a week?" he asked. And that's the whole point, said his team-mates.

James Flynn
72   Posted 19/06/2010 at 21:20:52

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Phil (69) - Maybe. But why go away from what clearly worked a lot, without it being proved no longer successful? Why? Again, as an American whose team is in the same Group, I couldn't be happier Rooney isn't being used the way SAF did? And with great success. Capello, keep it up!!

Next season, we'll see. I expect ManU to come back to the pack some more. Plus, for a fellow who'll just be 25 next season, Wayne has an unusually high number of miles and wear and tear on those tires of his. So, there's that.

In any case, "If it aint broke, don't fix it" is a cliche for a reason. If Wayne again isn't up-front and targeted for 90 minutes against Slovenia, it's Capello's fault England goes home. No one else's.

And I've watched both games. The England players ARE trying.

Brian Lawlor
73   Posted 19/06/2010 at 21:37:50

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Who cares?

We are Everton
Michael Kenrick
74   Posted 19/06/2010 at 22:04:33

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Phil (#71) — Robbie Savage (I know, I know) was insisting on 5Live that the money has absolutely nothing to do with it. While I agree that the money is obscene, and is having other negative effects on football, I don't think it explains what's going on with England currenly... far from it. Unfortunately, it is far too easy a target for lazy analysts and scapegoatherds to pick on.

James (#72) — this whole "not trying" thing is a similar easy excuse bandied about in England whenever a team fails to perform up to expectations. I don't watch or discuss American sports so I don't know if it is part of US culture but somehow I doubt that it is. The idea that you can watch players for 90 minutes busting a gut to do the business yet everything pretty much goes wrong for them... and then say from your armchair, brimful of Wilson-like football knowledge, "Well, that's 'cause they are just not trying." Sorry but it's not true.

Yes, there may be instances you can point to in a game when a player could have done more... but if they were really out on the field and "not trying", the games would look very ridiculous. Kinda reminds of the classic Monty Python sketch — the International Philosophy Final, Germany vs Greece:

Spragg Johnson
75   Posted 19/06/2010 at 22:34:33

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It's just so simple ... they are shite. Can't pass accurately, can't control a ball effectively, make poor decisions in one on one/tackling situations, have no vision, have no desire ... are overpaid ... etc etc...

Support New Zealand instead ... two of our squad don't even have a club at the moment and the desire we showed to equalise against Slovakia has made an entire nation proud.

Ka mate, ka mate ...

God defend New Zealand ...
Phil Bellis
76   Posted 20/06/2010 at 00:48:32

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Michael K... did you ever read Bally's take on playing for England? I like to think his view was shared by the likes of Colin Bell, Brian Labone, John Hollins etc.

The current tossers appear to be more interested in maintaining their obscene contracts with their domestic clubs and enhancing their prospective sponsorship deals. They have NO affinity with bread-and-butter supporters. Football is fucked; no fuckin argument.

James Flynn
77   Posted 19/06/2010 at 22:44:35

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Michael (74) - I think "They’re not even trying" is connected to resentment of wages more than anything. The implication being that since players aren't paid massive bucks to play for a National Team, they drastically reduce their effort when wearing the National Shirt. Utter crap. I watched both games and England’s side is trying hard.

(WARNING: I’m going to go on here about basketball. Bear with me. It connects).

In the States, this only compares, internationally, with pro basketball. After the last couple of World Championships and, especially, the 2004 Olympics when two soccer-mad nations; Argentina and Italy (yes, fucking Italy) finished ahead of the US (which team had NBA All-Stars) in the medal race. Add yet another soccer-mad nation's, Spain, success internationally, and clearly the US was doing something wrong.

Which caused an overhaul of the US Basketball organization. First in this was tossing out the old "Throw our NBA players' sneakers on the court and watch the world genuflect and/or cower" mentality. The old days were gone forever.

So US won Gold in 2008, thrashing the daylights out of almost everyone. But our last 2 games were fights and Spain was in the Gold medal game right to the end. A country, Spain, for which basketball (however popular) plays a distant, distant second to soccer in the National psyche, took the US team (Undisputedly stacked with the best players America had, highly motivated and well-coached) down to the last minute before the Gold was secured.

How does US international basketball connect to this thread? Well:

a. It’s the American sport most-referred to as “Filled with over-paid, me-first cunts”.

b. Is played in a space you can see players actually not trying.

c. One can clearly see the affect of stupid managerial decisions.

Replace: Basketball with soccer, US with England, and “Its Our Game. That Makes Us Automatically Better and Every Loss is a Monumental Upset Caused by Our Uncaring, Over-paid, Cuntish, etc; not Any Other Damn Thing”. Sound familiar England bashers?

Add Capello is managing terribly. Seriously, who hires a 64 year-old to manage their National Team. Isn’t it clear his “magic” ended with England’s qualification? How come the team isn’t responding to him the same way now?

To me (and when not in the same Group as US or Mexico, I root for them) England has to get past this “It’s Our Game” mentality. It’s the world’s game and no one (currently US, Algeria, and in a few day Slovenia) will be seeing England as any more than a team in their way.

If the “good old days” ever even existed, they’re long gone. England always has lots of good players; the current team included. The players are trying and very hard. But the National attitude has to change for the results on the pitch to.

Oh, and as long as Group play continues, Mr. Capello: Continued brilliance Maestro. England’s side has never been better-managed. Why, you even have Englanders convinced results are because the players aren’t trying. Genius!
Brendan O'Doherty
78   Posted 20/06/2010 at 01:13:39

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James,

"England has to get past this “It’s Our Game” mentality".

Have a look at this. You may have seen it already over there. Your above sentiment while desirable, is unlikely ever to come to pass. It is why the rest of us indulge in gloating so often.

http://cdn.majorleaguesoccertalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/the-sun-world-cup-2010.jpg
James Flynn
79   Posted 20/06/2010 at 01:37:50

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Brendan (78) - Went and looked. That type headline is typical Murdoch. All hail Rupert! Say what you want, he knows how to sell "news". Same here in the States.

What I was getting at had to do with the National psyche where England's team is concerned. Murdoch (he's an Aussie isn't he) is just taking advantage of that very thing.

The massive international success he is, Murdoch well-knows "Pump em up now to set em down later" is a tried and true technique in covering celebrity. But beside the point.

He didn't cause the "Sun Never Sets on .... English Soccer". He just uses it to sell papers. All I'm saying is England produces enough players, who deservedly earn a living in top-level club competition, to prove formidable in international competition.

But the "We must win. We're England", is counter-productive. Add to that is no magicical manager exists. Except, as Capello is proving, the magic is either black or (more likely) is just some illusion.
Brendan O'Doherty
80   Posted 20/06/2010 at 01:58:10

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A couple of phrases stand out for me in this thread:

1) Brian (#62) "your idealogical and intellectual posturing over whether booing has it's merits in the modern game"

2) Michael (#74) "brimful of Wilson-like football knowledge"

Classic!

Keep 'em coming lads......
Brendan O'Doherty
81   Posted 20/06/2010 at 02:09:08

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Yes, James, but then I don't believe that the (Murdoch-led) media hype surrounding the England football team and their psyche on the pitch aren't related. Those deluded fans who expect them to win the World Cup by and large read and believe this stuff everyday. That comic is the biggest selling (cough) newspaper in the UK. It's 'hero to zero' stuff.

If they win against Slovenia, on Thursday morning it will back to the world-beating hero worship again. I believe that this transmits itself to the players on the pitch in part, which might in some way go towards explaining their performances. But enough of that from me — I'm intruding on private grief here — better get back to the schadenfreude.

James Flynn
82   Posted 20/06/2010 at 02:31:45

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Brendan - On the other hand, nothing like a Flynn, O'Donnell, and McGlone defending England's team against Kings, Williams, Roberts, Evans, Johnsons, and others.

If only me Irish Dad was alive to see it. He'd be so proud. No he wouldn't. But Irish enough to have a good laugh about it. And get on my Italian mom about Capello.
Brendan O'Doherty
83   Posted 20/06/2010 at 02:52:45

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James — yeah, with a name like yours you had to have a connection with the 'old country'. However, I suspect that some of those you mention won't like being accused of' 'defending England's team' so good luck with that.
James Flynn
84   Posted 20/06/2010 at 02:59:45

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Brendan - Won't they? I've only spoken well about their team and best player; Rooney. Rooney!!! My God, it's true. The Irish do get into everything.
Ciarán McGlone
85   Posted 20/06/2010 at 03:48:59

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A hundred grand a week... or a tenner a week- Rooney's words would have been exactly the same.

A right to boo is an entirely fine concept... a right to sense is clearly a lost art.
James Flynn
86   Posted 20/06/2010 at 05:28:32

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Ciaran - If Rooney'd said instead, "Why you booing me? This Italian cunt's got me at mid-field", I wonder how many would have argued?

James Flynn
87   Posted 20/06/2010 at 05:42:25

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Brendan (81) - Sorry about "nothing like a Flynn, O'Donnell". Obviously, I was referring to you and meant O'Doherty, not O'Donnell.
Dave Wilson
88   Posted 20/06/2010 at 06:26:33

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Brendan.

Whilst MK has his little bit of fun and you indulge yourself in your premature schadenfreude. The "Wilson like" football knowledge I have acquired down the years tells me many many teams have poor starts to their World Cup campaigns. and you`ll need to get your Champaigne on ice.
Norman Merrill
89   Posted 20/06/2010 at 08:31:02

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On reading the Sunday papers, it appears that the players are bored? It all started with the stay in Austria, they had nothing to do after training, they had to stay in their rooms, for hours on end, and as one player put it, rather regimental. I wonder what the real boys will think, and make of that, in their luxurious tents in the Afghan wilderness?
Mike Gwyer
90   Posted 20/06/2010 at 08:11:14

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Dave (post 88 and a few others).

Footy knowledge is great and always commands respect whether pissing it up down the pub or having a debate in the office. Now coupled with the fact that the cream always rises to the top you could feel comforted in the thought that the English boys will come good.

Well I for one am not convinced. Forget the fact that our performances have been piss poor, our aggression limited and vision - well non existant. Something is missing, whether its part of team make-up or it's down to Capello, something is not right.

I will, though very reluctantly, agree that England may well win their last group game. But once we then play the proper footy teams we WILL be turned over. I mean Capello's team selection will be enough to make any Evertonian smile, Carragher against Messi, Xavi, Ronaldo and co.
Charles King
91   Posted 20/06/2010 at 13:03:41

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Since Glen Hoddle, we haven't had a genuinely gifted English footballer, and even he was treated with great suspicion by various England managers. Zola. Bergkamp, Ronaldo, Okacha are recent examples of players who could play rather than English heroes Shearer, Owen, Lineker, Robson who were good players but based on power and pace, not sublime ball control. Gascgoine did have the ability but was a basket case.

The evolution of our English style has given us perhaps one genuine world class player in Gerrard unfortunately he's hampered for England by Lampard. "Scuffer" Lampard (50% of the time he scuffs the ball) is in the Beckham mold — a burgeoning reputation built upon good fortune, playing in a dominant club side, rather than real ability, and it is a charge I level at Rooney.

Such is the dominance of Man Utd and Chelsea, a decent player like Rooney can score a load of goals whilst playing at 80% and I think that's what's happened to him; for England he's at a level and a team that can't dominate and he's struggling. His powerful style is not as effective outside the Prem and, not for the first time (Man Utd fans have said this), questions are being asked as to how good he really is.
Unfortunately many equate being a leading-light Englishman in the Prem as being world class... very wrong; this is the real reason England have only got to one major tournament final in their history.

Garry Corgan
92   Posted 20/06/2010 at 16:00:15

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Isn't it funny how foreign managers can speak English perfectly when they're doing well but after a few bad results they start having difficulty understanding and their ability to speak goes down the pan?
Brendan O'Doherty
93   Posted 20/06/2010 at 17:06:36

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Dave (88) - My champagne was uncorked last Thursday when France lost to Mexico, and now that they are in full mutiny mode I guess I'll have to drink the rest of it.

I might just save a glass for Wednesday night though...
Tom Bowers
94   Posted 20/06/2010 at 17:33:13

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Ron, I agree completely. Capello is a phony. He is picking the same players that Ericksson and McClaren picked but the system and individual performances are just not good enough and most knowledgeable fans knew this before this squad got to South Africa.

Most criticisms have come to the light of day but Capello has done nothing to motivate these players. With luck, they may squeak into the last 16 but after that what realistic chance do we have unless somehow everyone raises their game 100%. He has to forget Heskey and go with both Defoe and Joe Cole.

Dave Wilson
95   Posted 20/06/2010 at 17:33:24

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Fair play to you, Brendan Lad.

But, when defeats are the only thing you celebrate, you are wasting good champagne... .stick to the bitter, lad.

Allow me to share a little more "Wilson like knowledge" with you — and the editor: You should enjoy your drink now boys... only the knowledgeable will be counting their money AND drinking in celebration after Wednesday.
Chris Ashton
96   Posted 20/06/2010 at 21:03:15

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I think if you take all the criticism over the England performances and look at the real reasons why we are struggling then the finger of blame is not as straight forward.

Take for example our captain situation. We had to strip our captaincy because of the media hooked on a juicy story. So now it's ended up on a player who was expendable to the team. However, now it means we cannot drop our captain, even when he does not fit into the team, meaning we have to make up for his odd positioning.

The likes of Ashley Cole, Joe Cole, Glen Johnson, Aron Lennon, Shawn Wright Phillips, Jermaine Defoe and David James all have had injury-hit seasons so none are at the top of their game. Similarly, players like Heskey, SWP, Crouch, are not first choice for their clubs, but fit into the England team system. What other country can say this?

The other issue, which is my opinion is that the England team in this generation will always be good players that do not fit into a system. Our best two midfielders are very similar but cannot play together, our star striker plays off other players so therefore is stranded on the pitch when man-marked, and our captain is 3rd choice, who didn't even get the job when he was vice captain the first time!

Personal problems in the camp are important but at the same time, I think the biggest downfall is the fact the players don't fit, but whoever is involved in the team feel they cannot be dropped, hence performances like Algeria occur when faced with a team who do fit.

A side note over Rooney's little comment over the boos. Does he not think that if we cannot beat Algeria to qualify that the likes of Argentina, Spain, Germany, Holland and the like would rip us apart if we did make it through?

Brendan O'Doherty
97   Posted 20/06/2010 at 21:54:09

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Dave — I don't touch the bitter myself.

Can you share another bit of Wilson-like football knowledge with the rest of us? Where does it say in the rules of the game that the players pick the team instead of the manager? Because that's what was done in public today in Terry's press conference. They are fast becoming a laughing stock.
John Gee
98   Posted 21/06/2010 at 00:07:23

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During the 1998 World Cup, Brazil were ordered to play Ronaldo in the final by Nike (I think). He quite clearly couldn't take any part in the game and spent the first half wondering what all that green stuff was he was walking on.

I wonder if there is a similar pressure being applied to the current English team? An unbalanced midfield with no positional disipline and yet the personnel never get dropped. A first choice centre back pairing of one crock whose legs have gone and a divisive son of a drug dealer who is carried by his defensive partner at club level. A right back who can't defend but has just signed a big money contract (and all that entails).

Capello is a man who can deal with big egos and make an unpopular decision for the benefit of the team. He proved that at Real Madrid and had the humility to allow those players to change his mind through hard work and a good attitude. Is he being given the chance to be the manager that he's proved himself to be in the past? I'm not so sure. I think there are forces at play that would rather Gerrard or Lampard played and England lost than they were dropped and England won. Bit of a conspiracy theory, I admit. But there was a proven precedence 12 years ago.

From an earlier post, the question of talented English players was mentioned. The opinion was that Hoddle was the last genuine, intelligent talented English footballer. I'd like to disagree, I think it was Le Tissier. He had the vision, passing ability, eye for goal and positional intelligence. Plus he was great at penalties. English managers in the 90s mugged themselves of a Cantona-like talent there.

Brendan O'Doherty
99   Posted 21/06/2010 at 00:54:55

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And why did they do that John?

Because he didn't play for a 'big club'.

Laughable waste of talent.
Gareth Humphreys
100   Posted 21/06/2010 at 08:20:35

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Rooney. I'm with him all the way on this. I don't support England but I think any "supporters" who boo Frank Lampard after he takes a shot that dribbles wide deserve all the wasted money that it cost to get there.

"Supporters" DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT to boo players when they are still playing for "their" team.

It is counter productive and if it happened at an Everton game to an Everton player I would be furious — the only time I can remember it happening was Joleon Lescott. At the time, his head was up his arse anyway and did not need some blurts putting him under even more pressure when he was playing for MY club.

Like it or not but players need supporters behind them — not on their backs. Don't go the game, demostrate outside the ground, boo them off the pitch if you really want, but do not boo the players who are playing at the time.

If I was Rooney I would have refused to apologise but would have come out in support of Frank Lampard saying that we need support during the game, not barracking. Yes, they were shit and can expect criticism but the poor performace on the pitch was mirrored by some poor perfromances in the stand.

Michael Kenrick
101   Posted 21/06/2010 at 17:00:42

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Gareth (#100): Absolute crap. I am totally at the opposite end of the spectrum. I believe fans have every right to boo... players, manager, whoever... if they so wish. And whenever they feel the need. (You conveniently forget the notable case of Everton v Spurs and Moyes's shameful substitution that many a fine Evertonian booed in no uncertain terms.) It is a standard human expression for displeasure and there is absolutely no rule that says anyone who wants to boo at whatever time they wish is not allowed to.

Now, you may have that rule for yourself, and I respect your individual freedom to exercise it — for yourself. But don't be applying your rule to everyone else. That's what fucking Muslim extremists and other religious whack-jobs spend their lives doing. Please don't try to impose this kind of totalitarian nonsense on the free expression of all football fans.
Gareth Humphreys
102   Posted 21/06/2010 at 17:39:07

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Michael, how is booing your own players during the match going to help? It's not and as such you and your ilk are defeating the object of turning up.

The Spurs incident has not been conveniently forgotten as it is a match I well remember — simply because it was the only time I have ever brought my good wife to the game. However, the players were not barracked that night; the tactics behind the substitution were, along with the man who made the decision.

As such, it could be argued that no harm was done with the booing — alternatively, it could be argued that there was harm done and it resulted in Spurs snatching it at the death at the Park End. Either way, the booing in the instance you refer to was fucking pointless. If you are claiming that Moyes took the criticism on board then you are contradicting yourself in view of the vitriol you continue to aim his way.

Finally, I am not sure how you think I can impose my view on anyone else — I don't have that kind of influence. What I do know is that in 24 years of being a season ticket holder at Goodison I know of only one instance when an Everton player has been heckled during the match and we got twatted 6-1. Draw your own conclusions.

James Flynn
103   Posted 21/06/2010 at 21:05:40

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Well, on the other hand, just be thankful that game wasn't played in Philadelphia.

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