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Progress!! (??)

Comments (46)

I was on the SkySports website and had a little fun in doing the Missing Men game (,20922,15154_6722101,00.html ). The games are obviously only Premier League era (up to 2005), but I noticed just how much better off we are as a team/squad compared to these games.

If you look at the team that Moyes took over in 2002 it has improved by 2005; and comparing that to the current squad we are in a far improved position. Just how many players from these teams would get into the cuurent set up? In getting to where we are Moyes has spent £106,050,500 ( ) in total. That works out at £10 million per season average.

There has been a clamour for a change in management at our club, but is there another manager around who can do as good a job? Looking at the spending of other clubs I'd suggest not. £ for £ we have done better than every club in this era and that is down to David Moyes. Unless the financial situation of the club changes we will at most have around £10 million to spend (if the right players are sold). I personally believe that Moyes will spend that wisely and we will have an improved squad for next year.

I feel that Moyes will turn this underperforming (??) squad around during the summer and add a couple of useful signings. I think we'll get the much needed good start and really have a push towards Champions League football next year.

So enough of this pessimism and complaining. Let's inject some entusiasm into proceedings and look forward to a bright (royal) blue future!!! Who's with me?

(Or if not, then have a go at the game on Sky anyway. It's good fun and some of them are quite a challenge.)
Kevin Lucas, Warrington     Posted 21/06/2011 at 02:16:01

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Steven Pendleton
1   Posted 21/06/2011 at 10:05:24

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Fair enough Kevin but I'm sick and tired of Moyes' making a substitution only at the 70th minute or beyond when a change in a game is bleeding obvious and only putting out an attacking formation when we are 1 goal or more down.

I hope he does a bit of light reading on some literature highlighting the implementation of attacking formations. Not sure if the 4-5-1 will be in there so he'll probably stay away from it.
Sam Hoare
2   Posted 21/06/2011 at 10:57:41

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An optimistic piece Kevin? Watch out.

For what its worth i agree mostly. Though already this summer transfers activity is getting me down a bit mainly because we seem to compete with teams like Sunderland, Stoke and Bolton for players. Whenever the likes of Liverpool, Spurs or even Newcastle are in the frame we can't compare. Not sure exactly how Moyes is meant to overhaul these teams when he has no chance of ever competing in wages with them...
Shaun Brennan
3   Posted 21/06/2011 at 11:02:03

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"There has been a clamour for a change in management at our club, but is there another manager around who can do as good a job? "

I don't think many people are in a position who can answer there. I'll have a stab at it. The answer is; Moyes himself.

If he attempted to actually go out and win more games instead of starting a game set up as to not concede or nick a point I think we may well have finished further above the table.

It's a catch 22. Ignoring the board issues etc, I see it as Moyes who is keeping us where we are but also holding us back.

Don't get me wrong though he does need more backing from the men upstairs to be able to operate in the transfer market a bit more efficiently. But that's a whole other issue.
Liam Reilly
4   Posted 21/06/2011 at 11:15:58

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A good positive post Kevin and to reinforce your point; Moyes may have spent £10 million a season on average, but that's not Net spend, which is closer to 3 million a season. 'Arry' spends that on his drinks bill.

Would like to seem him be more adventurous against lesser teams however, as it?s disappointing how many points were dropped against lower half teams last season.

Would be nice to see a little bit of magic in the transfer window too, (a winger and a striker please).

Bring on the new season.
John Ford
5   Posted 21/06/2011 at 12:17:15

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Liam is correct , the net spend is roughly £3m per season.

I just want a striker with half a brain and an eye for goal.
Trevor Lynes
6   Posted 21/06/2011 at 12:16:51

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If you look closely we tend to buy players who are NOT coveted by other no bidding matches take place.....Its really a bargain hunt situation for players who are NOT wanted elsewhere, which leads me into the laughable antics of guys like Felli and Heitinga who reckon they are worth a place with the top four..
Heitinga would struggle to get a regular place in ANY top TEN team.
Danny Broderick
7   Posted 21/06/2011 at 12:22:29

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I don't think anyone doubts Moyes job so far in transforming us from relegation candidates to a top 6/top8 8 team. I would give him 8/10 for his acheivements at Everton so far.
He does have his weaknesses though:

Substitutions - often too little too late.

Playing players out of position - if I see Phil Neville and Johnny Heitinga in centre mid again I will scream. Or Anichebe on the right wing for that matter.

Tactics - I think 4-5-1 has served us well most of the time these last few years, but there have been occasions where we didn't need to be so negative against lesser opposition. The team selection against West Ham away last season, with no strikers in the 1st 11 but 3 on the bench, was an all time low of the Moyes era for me.

Pre-season preparations - while our rivals play in tournaments against the cream of Europe, we have generally played against Moyes mates in Preston and Bury etc.

Selling players - this might seem strange for the manager who sold Lescott and Rooney, but his hand was forced by the players' desire to leave in both of those deals. I don't think he would have sold them if he could have helped it. I think he has been a bit too loyal to certain members of the squad over the years. So much so that we now have several players that can only be described as dead wood - the likes of Billy, Yakubu and Yobo spring to mind, who would struggle to get a game with most premier league teams now.

This is a big summer for Everton. Is Davie going to sell some deadwood, bring in a couple of quality players and learn from past tactical mistakes? I am not too confident on the transfer front, but our pre-season looks a bit better, with games against Birmingham and Villareal. Let's hope he lets the handbrake off when we play the lesser teams.
Mark Stone
8   Posted 21/06/2011 at 13:27:06

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I think Anichebe is more effective at right mid than he is up front, Danny! I'll also just back up what Liam (#3) and Jon said (#4) - its closer to £3m a season when you factor in player sales.
Karl Meighan
9   Posted 21/06/2011 at 13:45:18

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I think one of the biggest compliments we could give Moyes is that we probably have at least five or six players if they were available and wanting to leave that would interest the clubs who finished in the Champions league places last season.

He has also turned us into a regular top eight side which is a achievment given the problems when he took over.

My guess is that unless we were winning the league every year fans would always find they had a different opinion than the manager at times.

The view last pre season was that Moyes had built his best squad, yes they underperformed imo but like you i believe two or three good additions and we could have a real good season. I certainly dont see Spurs, Man City or Araenal being streets ahead on the pitch.

The top sides are there to be challenged and if there is no belief then were already coming from behind.
Danny Broderick
10   Posted 21/06/2011 at 14:06:09

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He probably is more effective at right wing than up front, but then again that isn't saying much is it??!!
He can't be a winger surely - he's about 6'2 and must weigh 14 stone - give me a tricky little winger any day...
James Marshall
11   Posted 21/06/2011 at 14:21:27

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If we did make the CL, do you think our following season would be a successful one? Personally I can't help but think Europe just messes up our domestic campaign because our squad is rubbish.

Is it really the holy grail everyone thinks it is, or a folly, only worthwhile to the rich clubs?
Trevor Lynes
12   Posted 21/06/2011 at 14:35:18

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James # 10....I fully agree, our squad is not big enough or talented enough to make an impression in europe and we already struggle to make ends meet with our premier league fixtures...we still need cover for Baines and that has been an issue since Lescott we are woefully short of decent young strikers and wide players.
With our annual outlay on investment in players we are lucky to survive in the premier and that must compliment DM's motivational qualities on a shoe string !!
Anthony Hughes
13   Posted 21/06/2011 at 14:47:38

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Considering our resources finishing between 5th and 8th is a good season. I don't see a great deal that will change to thrust us any higher in the table, there's no money as we all know so the squad isn't going to be improved to any real degree quality wise. All above us will again buy more players and of a higher quality and until we can match them we aren't going to catch them.
Karl Meighan
14   Posted 21/06/2011 at 14:59:44

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James@10 I would agree its Champions League or nothing. Winning one game is enough to get a team into the group stages and as much as i dislike the greed of the tournament thats the aim with the prestige and money it generates.

I also agree that it could hinder the domestic campaign but the hope would be that reaching those heights on a fairly regular basis would give the manager not only extra finance for players but he would also be able to offer them Champions League football and the clubs name would grow.
Charlie Dixon
15   Posted 21/06/2011 at 15:13:41

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Trevor 11

I think we actually have a great selection of young strikers and wingers. Hallam Hope, Forrester, Gueye and Velios seem exciting, whilst Garbutt will come to the fore as Baines cover over the next 18months and having watched him a few times this year i genuinly feel he'll make the step up.
Charlie Dixon
16   Posted 21/06/2011 at 15:20:28

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not to mention Barkley and Lundstram behind and Bidwell further back.

New Signings
Danny Broderick
17   Posted 21/06/2011 at 15:12:37

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The thing is, we are not that far away from challenging for 4th place. If we could sell Rodwell for example for £20-25 million, we could replace him with Charlie Adam (£10 mil) and Daniel Sturridge (£10-15 mil?).
If we could sell Yak/Yobo/Billy, this could pay for a wide player - Donovan, Downing?
I know this sounds like I am playing FM, but if we could just re-balance the squad so that we had a few more attacking options, I really believe we could challenge the top 4 this year. The league looks like being as competetive as ever, but will Moyes be bold enough to do such wheeling and dealing? Or will he keep the same nucleus of players and bring in someone like Bothroyd on a free? Don't worry, I already know the answer...
Danny Broderick
18   Posted 21/06/2011 at 15:31:03

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Phil Neville is probably our back up left back, he's played there countless times for Man U and England...
Dave Lynch
19   Posted 21/06/2011 at 15:45:19

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Pray tell me.
What have i got to be optomistic about ?
No money and a chairman who hasn't got a pot to piss in, who constantly lies to the fans and provides no funds.

Having to sell decent players in order to buy 2nd rate cast offs.

A manager who loves defensive footy and is easily sussed out tactically by the likes of WBA, Bburn, Ncastle and other giants of the lower reaches fo the prem.

Come to think of it. My cup floweth over......... NOT !
Michael Evans
20   Posted 21/06/2011 at 15:48:38

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Far too positive for me.

I'm off to bitch, moan and whine elsewhere.... Bah Humbug!

Mark Stone
21   Posted 21/06/2011 at 15:58:56

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Danny, the problem with the idea of selling Rodwell for approx £25m and then spending that £25m on players like Adam and Sturridge is wages

Rodwell is on a 5 year, £30'000 a week deal.

Sturridge is reportedly on about £75'000 a week at Chelsea (he left city because they wouldn't match his wage demands) and Adam would probably be looking to at least Rodwells £30'000 a week.

So, lets say we sell Jack and get these two players in (consuming all of the Rodwell money on transfer fees). Adam's wages then cancel out what we would have been paying Jack so we're all square up to now. However, paying Sturridge's wages is costing you an extra £19.5m over the length of the contract!

Someone else mentioned Sturridge, N'Zogbia and Donavan. Well Newcastle have reportedly ended their interest in N'Zogbia because he wants to much money (apparently £60'000). So, lets say we go down that route instead of Charlie Adam. That means in addition to Sturridge's £19.5m you now have to find an extra £7.8m over the five years to cover the difference between Jack's £30'000 a week and the £60'000 a week wanted by N'Zogbia. We've not even thought about Donovan yet! Donovan is $2.3m a year in MLS which equals about £1.4m. Lets say you get him in for three years (because of his age) thats going to cost you £4.2m.

So even assuming the cost of selling Jack Rodwell covers the transfers fees of Sturridge, N'Zogbia and Donovan, you are looking at finding an £31.5m to pay their wages. On a more realistic note it would probably cost about an extra £10m in transfer fees to bring those three players in than we would get for Jack so you are really looking at a total cost of about £41.5m.

In summary, I am glad that David Moyes and Bill Kenwright are running our club, and not John Tyrrell (no offence John).
James Martin
22   Posted 21/06/2011 at 16:40:49

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Considering most of our 'big' players were shocking this season then surely even if no one comes in improvement should occur. If Arteta, Fellaini, Rodwell and Bilyaletdinov can all play as badly again next seaosn as they have done this season then we are i trouble. If even one plays near to the potential we have seen them play at (ok perhaps bilyaletdinov aside) we will undoubtedly improve our football. You don't always just have to spend spend spend to fix performance problems. A more adventurous formation with players in form playing in their rightful positions would see a amrked improvement on last seasons shoddy efforts without a penny being spent.
Andy Crooks
23   Posted 21/06/2011 at 17:12:49

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I doubt very much that the proceeds of the sale of Rodwell or Fellaini will reach David Moyes, or at least little of it will. What concerns me is the fact that players were sent on loan to save money. Will anything have changed this summer?
Trevor Lynes
24   Posted 21/06/2011 at 17:36:41

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I see that Wolves have bought O'Hara for five mill.....they just managed to stay up on the last day....meanwhile we fiddle while Rome burns.
We are being out spent by everyone and their cat ..... Andy # 23 hits the nail on the head....we sent out a dozen players on loan just to reduce the wage bill and our squad was reduced to the bare bones....what is going on at our once great club ??
Its boot sales and Pound shops or nothing !!
Sam Hoare
25   Posted 21/06/2011 at 17:33:42

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In relation to Mark stone's point. I agree. Lets sell some of the big earners.

By this i mean Heitinga (our highest earner) and Billy (who i bet is on something decent) along with obviously Yak and Yobo (who must be on decent enough wedge)

This would surely free up enough cash and wage room for Nzogbia, Adam and a freebie or two.
Marc Williams
26   Posted 21/06/2011 at 18:48:39

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Kevin Lucas...." Bright Royal Blue future- Pushing for champions league " ..... Either Doddy has spiked your drink or Kenshite's sorted you out with free theatre tickets !
Karl Meighan
27   Posted 21/06/2011 at 18:50:15

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Mark Stone@21 I hear what your saying regarding wages, however over the course of a long contract i would expect the clubs income to increase plus if the players and team are successfull this brings in finance. If signings are asking for pay that breaks the wage structure easily then fair enough there out of range but if there high profile signings and they only want parity with what some players at Everton already earn then i dont see why we cant compete for them.
Richard Dodd
28   Posted 21/06/2011 at 20:51:15

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I can certainly confess to spiking the drinks of all who think we could cash Rodwell in for £20-25M right now!
On last seasons displays and those in the recent U20 Internationals,we should be lucky to get £10M! In fact ,I`ll go as far as to predict that he`ll struggle to get in Davey`s side for the new season opener.
Still in the `GREAT` PROSPECT ` category for me.
Dick Fearon
29   Posted 21/06/2011 at 21:33:57

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Then again, what a huge boost to our pride when poor little old Toffees stick it up to a mega rich champions league chasing outfits that are loaded with international mercenaries.
At the same time I wish our Davy could instill the same fighting spirit into the lads when we play the minnows as he does 'big boys'
Ian Smitham
30   Posted 21/06/2011 at 23:04:53

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Sam, my understanding was that there is a player earning more than JH @ 75k PW, believe he is a bit injury prone, there is interest from his native country, not getting younger, and aside from that has a bit of an issue missing the first man on corners and not hitting the wall on free kicks.

His value wont go up, his speed and fitness wont improve and much i love our little spaniard maybe he needs adding to the list
Don Kiddick
31   Posted 21/06/2011 at 23:37:06

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Does anyone know the exact figure we are in debt?, only ask because I know Davy wont get all monies off the outgoing transfer fees but a slight percentage?, but if some mug was prepared to pay 25 million for our "Prospect" (who is not a real regular in our team), then maybe 25 million for Felli (who never completes more than half a season due to injuries and suspension) 3 mill of Yobo 3 mill for Yak 5 mil for bily, 5 for JH, and 75p for Big vic, then surely Davy will be able to get some decent dough of BK with a huge chunk paid of our debts at the same time
Anthony Jones
32   Posted 22/06/2011 at 01:19:25

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Please read Mark Stone; #21.

If ever someone has made it clear just how difficult inflated salaries are making life for clubs like ours this is it.

As poor old Dave Whelan says: "it's the weerrges. Most clubs caant afoowerd the weerrges!".
Jason Heng
33   Posted 22/06/2011 at 02:12:21

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As far as a Everton fan is concerned, optimism kills, not pessimism.
James Flynn
34   Posted 22/06/2011 at 00:23:07

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Hold fast. The current team has been together for 2-3 seasons, with a lot of youth who didn't get to play, or play much, in the Side.

Very frustrating to be right outside where the business is happening. Let's see what happens this season next. I don't buy the "We haven't, so we won"t" attitude.

Yeah we haven't. But DM is stacking and developing talent. If we were so bad off, those 14 draws would be lots of losses. Those 1 goal defeats should have been 2-3 goal defeats. I can't make this up. We all see the exact same thing.

The final 3rd. No finishers. It's peculiar to read how we don't score more (and so win) because of these supposed negative tactics of DM.

Defensively, how is he different from all the silverware winners? He's not. They have finishers for the opposing manager to fear. We don't.

All the relegation-level teams who park the bus against us? If you managed those teams, wouldn't you? EFC lacks predators.

But a true look at the teams who compete and/or win for the League Trophy? The managers, any of them, start from the back to the front. Just like Moyes does. But the trophy-lifting ones have predators. Moyes, and so us, doesn't .

That's us and where we are. Nothing more or less. It's the end item we lack. Putting it in the net.
James Flynn
35   Posted 22/06/2011 at 02:56:32

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Richard (28) - Why sell him at all?
He's only turned 20. Fuck selling to buy for this next season. Let's see how this group does come the Fall, I say.

Unless we except we're a feeder team for the SKY 4. We're not, I say.

Here's a curiosity. There hasn't been one (NOT ONE) wondering since the season ended about Beckford improving. 2 league jump and scored 10 goals with starting only so many games. What other club can claim this?

Think we know all the easier chances he had and fluffed and he don't? I say he's working on his improvements as you read this. Why wouldn't he? He's already, age-wise, in his prime. It's now or never for him financially.
Stephen Kenny
36   Posted 22/06/2011 at 08:57:20

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James, what are you expecting this group to do?

Considering they had all last season to show something and never and considering we are now weakened further with player sales?

For the record I think we will do a bit better than we did last season in terms of how we play and attitude, I don't think it will mean we finish any higher.

Ernie Baywood
37   Posted 22/06/2011 at 09:55:56

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I agree with almost everything you wrote, Kevin. Moyes did a great job taking us from relegation candidates to consistently in the top 7 or 8 teams in the league. If anyone argues differently to attack him then they're on rocky ground.

But the last couple of seasons have shown me that's as good as it gets. So, in my opinion he's done a great job for which I am very appreciative. But he's probably plateaued and if we want to improve again we should consider a change.
Mark Stone
38   Posted 22/06/2011 at 10:31:08

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Stephen I agree with you I don't think we will finish any higher, but I also think there will be an improvement in play / attitude. I also agree with you Ernie - we have probably plateaud.

However, what I will say, is that it costs a hell of a lot of money to finish one place higher in the league. Liverpool (who finished one place higher than us) have just spent a combined ~ £70m on Carroll, Suarez and Henderson (not to mention what they are paying those players in wages)! And I have a feeling their spending hasn't finished there. Spurs (who finished 2 places above us) have consistently been one of the top spending clubs in the premier for several seasons.

To qualify for the champions league is a different ball game all together. You looking at a cost of about £400m just to sneak in at 4th (i.e. Man City).

To summarise, the cost of qualifying for Europe is greater than the financial reward. That is fine if you have money to throw away like the teams above us. If we spent we would be doomed ... even it we did qualify for the champions league on the back of it!

There is not a manager in the world who would get any team into the top 6 without megabucks.
Danny Broderick
39   Posted 22/06/2011 at 11:25:23

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I disagree. From the base that we have, i.e. a proven top 8 squad, we just need to fine tune the squad and it would be well within our reach to finish in the top 6 and possibly even the top 4. And if Moyes wheels and deals, it doesn't have to cost us a great deal at all.
As long as he can spend the money he generates, and as long as those players signed don't take up more in wages than the ones he sells, then this is feasible. So if we sell the Yak, Yobo, Billy and say Heitinga, we could afford to pay 3 or 4 new players £50,000 a week easily without busting our wage structure. I personally would sell Rodwell also, to give us serious spending power.
Even accounting for agents' fees and signing on fees, I reckon we only need 2, or possibly 3, new additions in attack to have a right good go at the teams just above us, and this can mainly be funded by shipping out players who are no longer required hopefully.
Noel Lynam
40   Posted 22/06/2011 at 12:20:47

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I'm not knocking Moyes but I would say that of all the current Premier League teams, you would be hard pressed to find many who have not improved significantly since then.

(Arsenal and Liverpool being two exceptions that spring to mind)
James Marshall
41   Posted 22/06/2011 at 13:55:20

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So all we need is 2 midfielders, a striker or 2, a couple more defenders and about £50m to cover the costs. I'll get the money wired over to Goodison ASAP.

Come on gents, lets get serious here; we dont have any money and when you see players like O'Hara going to Wolves for £5m, you have to take notice and realise that we simply cannot compete in the transfer market AT ALL.

I'd love to know how much money Moyes has to spend, but I reckon it's less than the £5m they paid for O'hara and that in itself speaks volumes.

If he's worth £5m, then where d;you think that leaves us?
Anthony Hughes
42   Posted 22/06/2011 at 14:05:07

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Danny @38, if we sell Yak, Yobo, Bily,Heitinga and Rodwell from an already small squad and only bring in two or three high earners this would leave us incredibly short on numbers. Granted the Yak and Yobo will leave but i can't see us bringing in any established "stars" i think it will be down the pound shop for us to have a look in the discount bins.
Karl Meighan
43   Posted 22/06/2011 at 14:34:47

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I also dont think any club needs megabucks to break into the top six, no doubt it allows a quick route but investing in youth, building a club and buying the right players without breaking the bank is also a route into the top six.

It may take a lot longer but Man Utd's great run of success started with a crop of youngsters, Barcelona's great strength in the main comes from home grown talent and there are other European clubs who challenge in European competition without billionaire owners.
Danny Broderick
44   Posted 22/06/2011 at 14:49:59

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Well from those 5, I don't think any of them played a full season. Yobo was on loan, the Yak played a bit before being loaned out in January, and the other 3 played sporadically, and not very well at that.
Unfortunately I can't see Moyes selling that many players anyway, so we will probably get Bothroyd and Upson in on frees and that will be it.
James Marshall
45   Posted 22/06/2011 at 15:01:00

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@Danny - if we're really lucky. I don't even think Bothroyd will opt for us now he has offers from other clubs.
Drew O'Neall
46   Posted 22/06/2011 at 16:52:08

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We'd be very UNlucky to get Upson.

It's time to rebuild.

Mucha - Does not play
Heitinga - Subs shouldn't be paid that much or cause this much trouble
Yobo - does not play
Yakubu - does not play

Arteta - Over the hill / paid too much
Cahill - Over the hill / can't fit into a system
Bily - not good enough

That leaves a starting 11 of:



That's a team full of players who are young enough, good enough or not worth anything sold.

That would provide conservatively £35m of upfront plus 7x well paid player's wages.

Out with the old and in with the new.

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