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Season 2011-12

The Price of Stability

By Lyndon Lloyd   ::  24/09/2011
 119 Comments (Last)

Manchester City 2 - 0 Everton

Given the yawning inequality that has developed between Everton and Manchester City in recent seasons, it would have been glorious to shove the pundits' near certainty that Robert Mancini's side would finally break their Everton hoodoo back down their throats. Unfortunately, apart from an energetic opening five minutes, that never looked on the cards at the Etihad Stadium today; instead, Mancini did indeed oversee a victory over the Blues at the fifth time of asking, one that really just needed a goal from the home side to achieve.

It's more than a little dispiriting as an Evertonian that the outcome of this game was more or less assured before a ball had been kicked. David Moyes has employed the same gameplan of contain-and-hope on the home turf of the Premier League's best teams time and time again in his time at Goodison and though it's been successful here and there in grinding out a draw, all too often it's an exercise in futility.

And so it proved today. Swap the word "United" for "City" and you had the usual Everton experience in Manchester: a determined and stubborn rearguard action, precious little attacking outlet, the nail-biting wait for the inevitable breakthrough from the home side and a late scramble to claw back an equaliser.

Moyes used his post-match interviews to blame referee Howard Webb, who was shocking in his inconsistency and willingness to flash yellow cards with abandon, but, as poor as they were, the match officials did not lose this game for Everton; they were at massive disadvantage in terms of resources coming into this match but their manager undercut them further by persisting too long with a defensive strategy that was undermined the moment Mario Balotelli's deflected off Phil Jagielka and past Tim Howard with 22 minutes to go.

Given Moyes's legendarily cautious approach against the top sides and with his resources trimmed this season there was little surprise in him fielding arguably the most conservative line-up at his disposal. Phil Neville was drafted into midfield at the expense of Diniyar Bilyaletdinov as the only change to the team that started against Wigan Athletic last weekend which meant Tim Cahill playing as the lone striker but a chronic lack of creativity going forward.

Initially, the Blues fared well enough, taking the game to City with energy and some nice passing football but they only mustered a speculative Jack Rodwell effort from 25 yards that bounced wide in the fourth minute. Apart from a poor back-header by Phil Jagielka four minutes later that almost let Edin Dzecko in with Howard rushing out of his area to put him off, though, the home side weren't really offering much by way of goal threat either and it would take 17 minutes before they mustered a meaningful shot when Aguero sliced a left-footer over the crossbar from the edge of the box.

As the first half progressed, however, Everton began ceding more and more of the initiative and the pressure on their defence started to steadily build, not helped by a controversial booking for Neville following a seemingly innocuous collision with David Silva in the 25th minute. Following that up with a yellow for Leon Osman, referee Webb was chipping away at the Blues' aggressive game of dogged harassment in midfield. Nevertheless, Moyes's men successfully held out until half time, restricting City to long-range efforts from Dzecko and Gareth Barry.

The pattern firmly established in the first half predictably continued into the second and though Osman did strike the Blues' first shot on target four minutes after the restart and Cahill arced a header a yard over from Seamus Coleman's cross, the bulk of the traffic remained focused on Everton's defence. With so little in the way of an attacking outlet ? Cahill was routinely found defending on his own 18 yard line from open play ? the ball kept coming back and the 11 blue shirts behind it were under long periods of pressure.

While Moyes may have been contemplating changes midway through the second half, he was forced into his first substitution after an hour's play when Cahill injured himself in an ill-advised challenge on Vincent Kompany for which he was eventually booked. Louis Saha came on to replace him and he made an almost instant contribution, leading a breakaway into the City half but Marouane Fellaini's lethergic first touch was very poor and the ball was taken off him before the Belgian could carve out a chance.

A minute later, City made the breakthrough they'd been threatening when Aguero skipped along the Everton 18 yard line before back-heeling the ball neatly into the path of Balotelli and the Italian striker side-footed home via Jagielka.

It was so nearly 2-0 almost immediately when David Silva somehow got a shot away despite three blue shirts crowding him in the area but the ball smacked off the post, while Balotelli smashed a first-time shot wide from 25 yards.

It wasn't until first Royston Drenthe and then Apostolos Vellios came on for Neville and Coleman respectively that Everton, belatedly, started to look like a different side going forward and to ask questions of both City's defence and the referee. Drenthe drove narrowly over on his weaker foot with seven minutes left while, quite astonishingly, Mr Webb waved away protests when Baines' marauding run was cynically checked by Kompany on the edge of the box in the same fashion in which Osman had fouled Micah Richards in the first half and been booked for it.

While Drenthe's movement and pace were an added dimension, the Dutchman was, sadly, directly responsible for the killer goal with a minute left of the 90. A poor cross-field pass aimed at Baines on the left was easily intercepted by Silva in the centre circle and as Jagielka hesitated he released James Milner between the two central defenders into a one-on-one situation with Howard, the England international squeezing his shot under the 'keeper's body to make it 2-0.

A late flurry from Everton, which saw Saha warm the palms of Joe Hart with a powerful left-footed drive and superb anticipation by Vellios that saw him slide the ball away from the 'keeper and set up Fellaini for a shot that couldn't beat the two defenders stationed on the goalline, was in vain and time was called on an inevitable second defeat of the season.

In his pre-match press conference, Moyes likened this game to coming into a gun fight armed with only a knife. A more apt analogy would be a pistol versus a sub-machine gun and Moyes had a few bullets in his clip, he just chose not to chamber them until it was too late. Vellios was impressive once more as a late substitute and further pressed his claims for greater involvement, but Drenthe's costly error will, unfortunately, have set back his own case for starting the derby next weekend when his pace and unpredictability in forward areas are two qualities the Blues desperately lack.

There is no question that the strategy of containment had for an hour suffocated the ideas out of City but it was Mancini who made the timely substitution that turned the game, leaving Moyes chasing the point he'd set his men out to defend so staunchly when a bolder move might have given the home side something to think about at the back rather than making the decisive moves at the other end of the field.

In reality, Moyes made no real attempt to win this game and with a stategy like that, you usually get what you deserve. As well as they did, Sylvain Distin in particular, asking his defence to hold out against such a talented side for 90 minutes is just too big an ask. By the end, the defence looked spent and the team as a whole had bowed to the inevitable. Plus ça change under Moyes ? the price of stability, perhaps.

Player Ratings: Howard 7, Hibbert 7, Jagielka 7, Distin 9*, Baines 7, Neville 6 (Drenthe 6), Rodwell 7, Fellaini 7, Coleman 6 (Vellios 7), Osman 6, Cahill 7 (Saha 7)

Reader Comments

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Kevin Hudson
1   Posted 24/09/2011 at 21:21:31

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Sane analysis amid the usual ToffeeWeb hysteria, Lyndon,

Viv Richards quote sprang to mind:

"Pea-shooters versus cannons."

Sadly Moyes wouldn't, or couldn't, set his team up to even have a pop today.
Robert Daniels
2   Posted 24/09/2011 at 21:30:12

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Nail on head, pity it's not Moyes's.
Al Reddish
3   Posted 24/09/2011 at 21:26:23

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Absolutely spot on. I am a Moyes fan but he should have given it a go. Neville has been poor all season and seems well off the pace despite his goal midweek and, whilst I agree Bily would not be up to this game (sadly), a better option would have been to use Fellaini as the holding midfielder and playing Cahill behind Vellios.

Maybe with Cahill's injury, Moyes will be forced to play a more attack-minded team against the Redshite.

Keith Pratt
4   Posted 24/09/2011 at 21:27:48

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Pathetic attitude and tactics from Moyes. Stop fucking wingeing about your squad, grow some bollocks and have a go. You are wasting the talent you have at your disposal; if you dont like it, fuck off!!

Oh, despite being the media darling, you haven't had any offers?? Not fucking surprised... you should refund the poor 3,000 who spent their hard-earned cash on that boring, negative bollocks.

Mick Fleming
5   Posted 24/09/2011 at 21:36:40

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Moyes said before the game that it's a gun fight and we've only got a knife, that really boosted morale, David. The problem was that I didn't even see any fucking knife ? just a large blue double-decker bus.
Terry Downes
6   Posted 24/09/2011 at 21:48:56

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Well... if in doubt, we can always sign a keeper ? cos that's what we really need ? isn't it??
Jamie Tulacz
7   Posted 24/09/2011 at 21:40:09

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Also a Moyes fan, but have to agree that you can't really expect to get away with those sort of tactics.

I know Vellios may not be up to a full game necessarily at the moment, but he could always bring Saha off the bench after an hour surely.

Having said that, looking at the City squad, I wouldn't swap many of theirs for ours, even their subs would walk into our line-up.
Paul Holmes
8   Posted 24/09/2011 at 21:40:43

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Moyes is such a negative manager, we have some decent players but I now realise it's the manager NOT the players who make Everton rubbish to watch!

Imagine the football if we had a forward-thinking manager who believed (and got the players to believe) that we could beat City, NOT say "It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight". He's supposed to motivate them!

Ryan Holroyd
9   Posted 24/09/2011 at 21:55:20

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They have over £100 million pounds worth of forwards on the pitch today and nearly as much on the bench.

Our forwards cost about 3 bob.

It's nothing to do with stability IMO, it's all about how much money your owners have in their bank balance.

They have trillions and money is NO object to the Arab owners, we have 5 pound notes to throw around.

We could have had any line up and got smashed today.

Do I like it? No
Was it embarrassing? Yes.

There is no competition in the league anymore, that's why I won't pay £500 odd quid for a season ticket anymore.
Mick Davies
10   Posted 24/09/2011 at 22:06:52

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Cowardice, and an insult to the travelling fans. Might as well have just left a white flag in the goalmouth and walked off after 5 mins.

Moyes admitted defeat before the kick off. But why not put an attacking team out and frighten them? The first few minutes we looked like we would have a go but once City sussed out how weak we were up front they pushed us back and the inevitable Alamo ensued.

It's only a matter of time before a club with 70% of possession is going to score and all of Hibbert's can-can dances isn't going to hold back class strikers like theirs.

Then, when we go a goal down, same old Moyes. Puts a few attack-minded players on. FFS if he couldn't see that we were being annihilated before that he shouldn't be signing a new contract in Jan.

As for knives against guns, they looked more like palette knives to me.

Lyndon Lloyd
11   Posted 24/09/2011 at 22:11:30

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At the end of the day, Ryan, no matter how much their forward line cost in relation to ours ? don't forget we've played the same tactics for years with £11m Yakubu leading the line ? it's still 11 men against 11 men and our defence was doing a terrific job of frustrating them.

There's a middle ground between fielding an overly attacking line-up with two strikers and potentially weak defensive links like Bily and what Moyes went for today which was a starting XI with no attacking outlet whatsoever.

The talk in the press was about how Moyes has now assembled a team who can beat any team on its day (personally, I think that analysis is now a season out of date) but he didn't even try today. He parked the bus and I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd kept it that way all the way to the 90th minute if the scoreline had remained goalless.

At the very least, had Cahill not got injured he should have introduced Saha or Vellios up front and added Drenthe around the hour mark because, as we showed once all three subs were on, we looked like a different team.

I understand not playing that way from the start; that being too attacking against a team like that for 90 minutes is dangerous... but equally dangerous is putting 11 behind the ball and hoping they don't score because the best teams always find a way through.

We barely asked City any questions today, not because we don't have the players but because we didn't deploy the right kind of players that we do possess until it was too late.

With this game for reference, I'd now prefer that we go to Old Trafford and just go for it, for the second half at least. At least there'd be some entertainment in trying and a little merit in the courage to do so. Today was just depressing to watch.
Chris Butler
12   Posted 24/09/2011 at 22:20:38

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I think this defeat was embarrising; it reminded me of United last year and Sporting Lisbon the year before. You simply cannot go a game looking for a 0-0 unless you're playing on FIFA 11. In my opinion, we're missing Beckford or somebody like AJ. You can't blame BK anymore if Moyes actually stood up to BK I think we'd actually get investment.
John Daley
13   Posted 24/09/2011 at 22:40:18

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Moyes has more often than not used the same stifling, damage limitation tactic against Utd and Chelsea over the past nine years with the same end result. The very rare occasions we've actually managed to beat them during his reign are, coincidentally enough, the very rare occasions we've actually decided to go toe to toe with them and attack whenever the opportunity arose rather than camping out in our own half and hoping to sneak a point (I'm not counting the semi-final as a victory over Utd).

True, you're going to have to defend for long spells against the top teams but to hope to do only that for ninety minutes is unrealistic. You're relying on every single player putting in a shift and working their socks off the whole game, relying on every single player not switching off once or making a single error the whole game, relying on the opposition to fail to create any clearcut chances or convert any half chances that come their way. You might pull it off for 60, 70 mins or longer but once the opposition manage to find a way through then that's your game plan well and truly fucked. You've got no way back in the game because the whole team has been selected and set up solely to defend and they can't suddenly switch from the ultra defensive mindset that's been drilled into them to one of all out attack. The opposition have been invited to dominate possession and make all the running the entire game and that's not suddenly going to change just because you throw a forward on as sub for the last ten minutes. It's too little, too late.

That's my half arsed theory anyway. Then again I don't have an innovative tactician like Steve Round stood next to me, doodling away in a notebook and furiously nodding his head up and down for ninety minutes like he's Linda Lovelace in a fucking Everton trackie. Honestly, Moyes would be better off hiring the 'lovely' Debbie Mcgee as his assistant.
Dick Fearon
14   Posted 24/09/2011 at 22:24:45

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I have been criticised for describing the Moyes philosophy as pinch a point. What could better describe this latest exhibition of his negative, defensive, non-enterprising, cowardly, brain-dead tactics???

To suggest that a two-goal defeat equates to success and his pre-season statement that top 10 is the best we can hope is a clear sign that he has thrown the towel in and with it the fans' aspirations. How on earth can he expect the fans to be 'up for it' when he himself thinks we have no chance???

It has not been a spur-of-the-moment thing but over the years I have turned full circle in my opinion of the man. From him being the Moyesiah to him being the Destroyer of Hope.

I am convinced he is taking Everton on a downward slope that will see gates at Goodison below 30,000 by Xmas.

Trevor Mackie
15   Posted 24/09/2011 at 23:03:21

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This is what Moyes does and ? despite web critics ? he is lauded by the majority, only the threat of relegation will produce criticism.

Too many for too long have nailed their colours to the Moyes mast to acknowledge his shortcomings ? it's personal now.

He's a blue Benitez.
Christine Foster
16   Posted 24/09/2011 at 23:18:02

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A sombre if not totally accurate analysis of the game and the all too apparent attitude of Moyes, Lyndon.

The much hyped ability of Moyes over the years has been the ability to get the best out of his players; if that's the best they can do, it's no surprise that so many fans are voting with their feet.

Moyes didn't set up the team to win anything and his negativity and lack of creativeness in tactics can only mean performances that are as dour as his reflection. Whoever said that attack was the best form of defence never sent the book to Moyes; his attitude before a game removes hope and that is one of his biggest failings.

We can all point to the gap in resources between ourselves and other teams but that's no excuse for not even trying to have a go.

The realists among us will say that we need to NOT lose matches because we need to survive in the Premier League and we must do what we must do to ensure that survival but we will end up playing to empty houses because who wants to watch that? What forward would want to play for David Moyes if their chance consists of ten minutes when you're already behind and the heart has gone from the rest of your team mates?

It's not all the players' fault when you're set up to fail.

Elaine Riding
17   Posted 25/09/2011 at 01:07:34

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I had to be at work for 1pm today. Before I had even got started, 2 seperate people had come up to me and asked who was up front for Everton today and then listed the team..

They then seemed surprised, that I wasnt at all surprised.

Anyone else dreading Saturday ?
Brendan O'Doherty
18   Posted 25/09/2011 at 01:20:29

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Certainly not Elaine. The RS are a million miles away from City, who have some of the world's best players. £35 Andy Carroll ? £20m Jordan Henderson ? I'm laughing already! BRING IT ON!

Andy Peers
19   Posted 25/09/2011 at 01:29:57

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I was dreading today and this run of five games that started with a loss that will not give any confidence for next week. I can't tell you if I will be angry, frustrated or just flat out feel like giving up with Moyes and the board after this next run of games. I am not sure what can help us anymore. An attacking line up might help but Moyes will never do it so we will never know.
Mick Davies
20   Posted 25/09/2011 at 02:56:10

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Lyndon LLoyd #8 Excellent summary, and an accurate description of our assistant manager. He reminds me of Mike Bassets sycophantic puppet, but with less charisma
Mick Davies
21   Posted 25/09/2011 at 03:06:31

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Sorry, I meant to add John Daley to the description of Steve Round the twist
Paul Rimmer
22   Posted 25/09/2011 at 06:02:49

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Moyes got it wrong in many ways. You can't go to City/OT etc and just defend. You've got to keep the ball and break with pace.
Fellaini - played too advanced - should be the holding player.
Drenthe - should have played on the left to add balance/pace
Neville is not a midfielder.
Cahill should be played behind another striker.
The only thing Moyes got right was to man mark Silva. I've been a Moyes fan but things are going stale on the pitch - we need new ideas and a different mentality.
Brian Dagnall
23   Posted 25/09/2011 at 06:28:11

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Yes, Mr Moyes' tactics failed. I think even if you set up defensively, having a proper centre forward up front gives you a chance to hold the ball up when it is cleared. Yesterday, it just came back all the time.

Opinions on this site are sometimes interesting, but more often they are anger at defeat masquerading as objective opinion. Fact is, if the Blues had set up with my system, they may have lost 5-1 like Spurs did, who knows? After all, Man City only scored when we brought on a centre forward, so maybe I am wrong.

Maybe if we set up as Lyndon suggests, we would have lost 8-2 like Arsenal. Where's your evidence that "having a go" would be successful? I think Moyes erred myself, but I find it so hard to believe that any of the experts in this column could come up with a successful gameplan away to Man City. And yes I hate to admit I am happier losing 2-0 than 5-1 or 8-2. Am I the only one?
Brian Hill
24   Posted 25/09/2011 at 06:41:44

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There is no reason at all to worry about the RS next week. They are still a very, very ordinary team but, because of "King Kenny", they are being hyped more than ever by the inventors of football. If Moyes can grow a pair by Saturday, he should start with Stracqualursi and Vellios as this combination would show Carragher up for the yard dog that he is. If we attack that miserable, whining, self pitying shower we can give them a hiding to be remembered for years. Over to you Mr Moyes.
Alan Clarke
25   Posted 25/09/2011 at 07:52:01

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Brian Dagnall, sometimes games shouldn't be looked at in isolation. Perhaps we would have lost 5-1 but look at Spurs since they lost to City. As much as we like to criticise Redknapp, he sets his teams up to play the right way. He sends them out to win. Sometimes that means you'll get thumped but we lost anyway so what's the difference? That defeat yesterday is far more demoralising than 5-1 and it will have a bigger impact than had we tried to attack and lost by a bigger margin. Moyes went to the gun fight with a banana.

Also has anyone noticed how easily Moyes has fallen out with and sold his attacking players? Beckford, Yakubu, AJ, Beattie, Vaughan, Anichebe and now Saha. Yet he rarely falls out with his defenders and fights tooth and nail to keep them. Why did he let Arteta go for £10 million but put a massively over-inflated price tag on Jagielka? He's quite happy to let Yak go out on loan to get him off the wage bill yet when Spurs bid for Neville, it was labelled insulting. Why not get him off the wage bill?

If Moyes carries on, we will soon have 10 defenders starting every game.
Martin Mason
26   Posted 25/09/2011 at 08:13:18

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You are correct in that 2-0 defending is a far better result than a bagfull against attacking because of goal difference. I agree that it's disappointing to have to watch it but Moyes is right in this case.
Paul Johnson
27   Posted 25/09/2011 at 08:22:43

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Martion#26. No its not and no he isn't. This is not football and it certainly isn't entertaining no wonder people are staying away from Goodison in their thousands, FFS we can't even sell out on derby day. People spend their hard earned cash to be entertained and what Moyes did yesterday was disgraceful, I was actually embarrassed to be associated with that yesterday.
Lee Courtliff
28   Posted 25/09/2011 at 08:40:45

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I can only think of two good things about this match.

Firstly i thought Rodwell did very well against Silva for long periods of the game. I have never been a big fan of Rodwell but in fairness i thought he did a good job.

Secondly,i thought Velios looked very promising. Some really good touches,especially for such a big lad.

The lads tried hard to get a point but it was far too negative from Moyes. Like Elaine said,when i saw the line up i wasn't suprised we didn't have any strikers on the pitch. And that is depressing.

I still think we will beat Liverpool though. It's just so typical of us.
Lyndon Lloyd
29   Posted 25/09/2011 at 09:12:07

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Maybe if we set up as Lyndon suggests, we would have lost 8-2 like Arsenal. Where's your evidence that "having a go" would be successful?

To be clear, BrianD., I was not suggesting we go all out attack from the get-go (though I would still have gone for a natural striker ahead if Cahill from the start). I was content with the job done until half time but had hoped for some kind of shift in emphasis towards attack around 10 minutes into the second half at a point where City didn't look like they had any more ideas.
Ian Bennett
30   Posted 25/09/2011 at 09:27:46

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Lyndon ? who said that Moyes couldn't have got to 75 to 80 mins - and brought on 2 subs to nick it? Everyone would have raved about that. The fact is they got lucky with a deflection and then Drenthe gave away a terrible pass (I know he is new but it's fact).

For all Cahill's limitation, he is better than anything else we have up front. That needs to change... but Saha is not the answer and we will have to see if Vellios or the Argie could be.
Chris Leyland
31   Posted 25/09/2011 at 09:35:54

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It's easy this management game. I'm surprised a few more of you fellas haven't been headhunted by some of the big clubs. All we need to do is go 442 and we will be pissing on everyone every week. Stick Vellios and strac upfront and the glory days will return. Go toe to toe against a side who have spent hundreds of millions of pounds and we will beat them with our 2 bob squad.

I reckon we should all buy the club between us and then we can each have a go at being manager one week. Afterall it can't be that hard can it?
Mike Oates
32   Posted 25/09/2011 at 09:45:59

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OK lets go back to the days under Walker , Kendall Phase 3 , etc and wallow around 17-20th for most of the season but the games are exciting to watch as we regularly get stuffed .

Right Moyes goes and we get ..... er who ! to replace him - I know Bruce or Coyle or lets say the ex Blackpol Mgr who's name I cant remember - all who preach good football but all manage teams who get well and truly stuffed every week . Do we really believe any decent manager would come to Goodison with ayearly budget of £0m !!

Lay off Moyes who works on peanuts and get onto Kenwright who's the sole reason we are were we are
Paul Olsen
33   Posted 25/09/2011 at 10:01:03

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#31 yes, be we do not play the likes of Earl Barrett nowadays.

We have Fellaini, Rodwell, Barkley, Saha, Distin, Jagielka, Howard, Baines, Heitinga, Osman all of which would have walked into those relegation battle teams.

Are we worse off than the likes of Fulham, Q.P.R and Sunderland playerwise, no? Then why can´t we just have a go in a game of football?

When the likes of WBA and Fulham can actually try to play the game and avoid getting relegated while they do it there is absolutely no reason why we shouldn´t be able to do that as well.

That ex-blackpool manager you talk about didn´t have these players, he had one Charlie Adam + alot of championship makeweight players. They did very admirably with what they had been given and he certainly does not deserve being ridiculed by someone like you.

Yes, i think Holloway could do a job at Everton. Maybe even those others you are calling inept in your post.

For a managerial wage around 60-70k pr week, i do believe quite alot of managers would be interested. Obviously Kenwright believe we can afford that.
Brian Waring
34   Posted 25/09/2011 at 10:05:19

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Chris (# 30) Man city had the millions in the 4 games previously at their place, but couldn't beat us, so why is it when they do eventually beat us, its because they have millions?
Brian Dagnall
35   Posted 25/09/2011 at 10:12:14

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Chris #30, this was my point basically. Everyone suggests if we have Gameplan X we can put Osman Neville and Hibbert against Silva Dzeko and Aguero ... and win. So Moyes made us lose by choosing the wrong gameplan letter. Er, don't think so.

Whilst in this vein, some experts here believe Kenwright just needs a proper business plan, spend money on marketing, invest in new players, and the cash will just roll in.The fact that we have a small number of customers spending less than the average in the league rarely gets a mention. If it's so easy, why don't all small companies become big companies?

Truth is most of us have no experience of football management, entrepreneurship, running a company in tough times, plus we are all skint, so all our opinions are basically hot air. Mine included, so I'll shut up
Mick Fleming
36   Posted 25/09/2011 at 10:15:16

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Chris 30 and Mike 31. Ok youre both right, what do most of us know and there is no-one else out there who can do any better, a managers life eh!
Moyes can continue to lower expectations with his pre match shite, great tactic that, master stroke which will boost the players and fans. Pre match rang alarm bells and then when I read the team sheet I thought oh shit, he really knows how to strike fear into the opposition.

This is not a one off. We are set up to play boring negative football so would you include that in the job spec for any potential new manager.

The point people make is that we do have options so lets stop feeling sorry for Moyes and stop thinking his hands are tied, he gets paid enough. If he didnt have a choice then I would feel sorry for the man and vent more anger at the clowns at the healm.
Brian Waring
37   Posted 25/09/2011 at 11:04:21

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This is how defensive and negative the tactics were, we have a corner, and there is only four players in the penalty box.
Alan Clarke
38   Posted 25/09/2011 at 11:17:26

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Brian and Chris. So we should not offer an opinion and we shouldn't be worried about our club? We shouldn't be worried about the big black hole the club is sailing into because we don't have any business or football experience? How do you even know none of us have any experience?

What absolute garbage and it's the worst possible defence of Kenwright and Moyes. It's effectively Kenwright's attitude towards fans saying the fans don't understand and treating them like complete imbeciles.

I'll simplify it for you Brian. If you don't play a striker, you more than likely won't score. If you spend more than you earn, you'll accumulate a massive debt. If you start taking out more high interest loans to pay off your debt, you will end up in even more debt. If you're paid 70k per week you should have a plan B going into a game. It isn't fuckin rocket science so don't base your trust in the 2 donkeys running the club on the fact your brain can't comprehend that things can be done better.
Brian Dagnall
39   Posted 25/09/2011 at 11:31:20

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Alan #37, was I defending Kenwright or Moyes? If you read my post it says Mr Moyes erred in my opinion. Kenwright may be a donkey as you say, I have no way of knowing. I don't even know him so couldn't even try to defend him.

But Chris #30's point and I agreed, is that we talk like the tactics are easy and just go 442 and we'll clean up. People seem to see no risks in their own tactics. Last year we played defensively at Man City, Cahill forward and we won 2-1. They battered us in the second half we hardly got the ball up their end. No criticism of Moyes tactics then. Win and the gameplan is excellent. Lose and you are a donkey.

We lost to a team stuffed with better players in almost every position. I don't know what tactics would overcome that basic fact. And I feel sure things can be done better as you say ... but by whom and when? Insulting everyone, me included only shows your anger at our defeat. My advice would be to lighten up Alan, worse days may be ahead.

Wayne Smyth
40   Posted 25/09/2011 at 11:56:32

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The loss yesterday had at least as much to do with Moyes lack of belief, as it did about the gulf in resources.

Had all the Man City players had a blinder, then we can do nothing to stop that. They have better players and if they play to their full then we will lose. But if we're going to turn up we have to go there on the premise that they wont have a blinder and we can therefore beat them or at least get a draw. A small, close knit squad has advantages too, such as togetherness and greater work-ethic.

As well as the general negativity in terms of his team formation, you have to ask yourself why he persists in playing players out of position.

I can't remember if Cahill has ever had a good game as the main striker, and if he has then each game is outnumbered by ten where he fails to score, hold up the ball and do the other things a striker is expected to do. If you are going to play a lone striker at least play a fucking striker not an attacking midfielder.

Same goes for Fellaini asked to play as an attacking midfielder for best part of 80 minutes, or Neville who at best is a mediocre right back, but asked to play in midfield where he often is seen in line with our central defenders, or consistently giving the ball away or playing hospital balls to our players. None of the players who played out of position really did themselves justice.

When we're paying our manager 70k / week, we should be getting a great motivator who believes that its possible for Everton to beat anyone and instils that into his players.

I'd be less pissed off if this was a one off. However we play the same against every team, regardless of whether its a mega-bucks Man City or Blackburn or newly promoted QPR. This is why any talk about resources is just a red-herring. If you send your team out just to not get beat, the best you're likely to ever do is not get beat.
Brian Waring
41   Posted 25/09/2011 at 12:25:17

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Just a quick question. If Cahill is fit, and Moyes starts with the same 11, and the same negative tactics against the shite, and we end up getting beat, will that be okay because they have spent a shed load of money?
David Hallwood
42   Posted 25/09/2011 at 12:13:52

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To my mind, Moyes is a cautious manager and even if we were taken over by a trillionaire, always will be, and he sets up his teams accordingly. But so is Mancini, nobody on this site has commented on Aguero being subbed for a 3rd centre back when they were 1-0 up, and that's with all that attacking talent on the bench.

Defensive minded coaches easily outnumber the cavaliers; look at the special one when he was at Inter in the CL final v Barca, was his team's performance any different than ours yesterday (except of course they won).

There are too many posters saying grow a pair, up and at 'em etc, but there are only a few attack-minded mangers like SAF, and Guidiola (?), that buck the trend, but what they have that Moyes hasn't got is the ability to go out and pay top dollar and top wages to get the best attackers.

And final observations; have you ever noticed that when we get beat, there are more postings than when we win. And if we do get beat by the RS next week. It?ll be the first back to back defeats in 2 seasons. No bad for a negative prick with no money eh?
Mick Gallagher
43   Posted 25/09/2011 at 12:16:39

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Look at the crowds this season down could be fed up watching boring negative football. Why pay to watch shite like that and we hope to get the kids to come and watch that, no fucking chance.
Chris Leyland
44   Posted 25/09/2011 at 12:32:03

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Brian - a quick question in response to yours. If we start with the same 11 and the same tactics and we win will these tactics still be shit? If the answer is yes then u assume you would rather go all out attack and lose to the shite as at least the tactics won't be negative regardless of the result?
Chris Butler
45   Posted 25/09/2011 at 12:33:47

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The simple reality is that DM has spent large amounts of money on unsuccessful players. Heitenga is a well respected defender, who was excellent whenever he played in that positon, yet Moyes replaces him with the ineffective Jags. Why didn't we just sell Jags? I can't understand it he's a decent player but too prone to mistakes. I think Moyes tactics would have worked if we had a striker who would run his socks off. In my opinion Moyes is destroying our club, he has no ambition anymore his negative tactics do get us a lot of draws but also prevent us from winning a lot of games. There's just no pressure of him, he knows he'll never be sacked no matter what teams he puts out. We'll be lucky to get more than 36 000 for the derby and then I believe fans who support BK and DM will realise the mess we're in.
Seamus Murphy
46   Posted 25/09/2011 at 12:20:51

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Brian - let me give you my opinion of your posts. Firstly you say "people say it's as easy as play 442 and we will clean up" - people are not saying it's as easy as that. People are saying play a fucking striker and at least give it a go. Don't just roll over and die. Even by parking the bus We lost anyway, so why not at least try to have a go and provide some entertainment?

Secondly you say "we lost to a team stuffed with better players in every position, I font know what tactics could overcome that". Well that's just a crazy viewpoint. There is always different tactics that can be used, or a combination of tactics. If it was just as simple as the team with the best players winning, nobody would need to even bother turning up to play united or city!
Richard Harris
47   Posted 25/09/2011 at 12:52:25

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Brian #38 "We lost to a team stuffed with better players in almost every position. I don't know what tactics would overcome that basic fact". We also lost to QPR and were very lucky to get three points at Blackburn so by your reasoning they must also have better players than us ?
Colin Ryan
48   Posted 25/09/2011 at 13:02:11

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Check the link for Man Citys last 24 home games since Everton beat them. 22 wins and 1 defeat to Man U and 1 draw against Napoli. In 18 of them games the opposing team didnt score. What did we expect. Think we have to accept that only losing 2-0 there is not the end of the world considering the gulf in resources. Its depressing but reality.
Robert Szlaz
49   Posted 25/09/2011 at 13:08:58

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Well said David(41).
If tatics are all that is needed then why do division two teams not win the cups? Or even conference?
Eventually the skill and ability of the players comes through.
Do we really think that Fellani is as good as Toure? Vellios is as good as Aquario? If they were they would not be with us would they?
We need investment and that is all that will help us!
Andrew Rimmer
50   Posted 25/09/2011 at 13:24:41

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Mike #31 What's with all this get rid of Kenwright stuff, Do you really think that if we got some finances Moyes would suddenly field attacking teams? No! Why do you think Alex Ferguson hasn't retired yet? Because United are shit scared of getting Moyes! He would ruin that team!
Brian Waring
51   Posted 25/09/2011 at 13:53:54

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Chris, if we beat the shite with the same 11 and tactics, I'll be over the moon because we beat them, that doesn't mean I have to be happy with the dour and negative tactics, and hoping to nick a goal.

I don't even think trying to nick one was in Moyes's tactics yesterday, we had a corner, and had 4 players in the penalty box.
Brian Waring
52   Posted 25/09/2011 at 14:07:42

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Also Chris, will you be happy if he starts against the shite with same game plan as he did against city?
Robert Pullan
53   Posted 25/09/2011 at 13:49:40

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Excellent article Lyndon.

Moyes clearly has an issue with his strikers. The worrying thing is that Cahill is played up front on his own at home against Wigan, never mind City away.

I thought it was interesting to see last season when we beat Wolves 3-0 away. Beckford led the line well, scored a goal and yet still was substituted because he wasn't defending from the front enough.

Johnson, Yakubu, Beattie, Beckford have all been bought and sold, and now Saha is now at odds with Moyes.

I live in Manchester, and most of my friends are City fans. I been to City away for the last 5/6 years. The problem this year was that City were playing half our team (the defensive half). We were crying out for creativity but if you added Pienaar, Arteta (pre-injury) and a Yakubu or Johnson in their prime we'd have given a similar game as we given them the last four years. (I particularly remember Arteta running the show two years ago.)

I still back Moyes and worry that when he leaves we will go down (probably in a similar fashion as Sheffield Wednesday), but I certainly take your point that he needs to go on the attack more.

Sadly our expectations have to be lowered. Moyes is stubborn and won't change his defensive philosophy. This clearly is the negative side to having him. The positive side is that he will ensure we play premiership football for a few more years. I simply cannot see any other manager achieving the same consistently from one season to the next.
Geoff Edwards
54   Posted 25/09/2011 at 14:03:40

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Seamus Murphy's 1st paragraph is spot on, we lose anwy so why not just give it a go?
Chris Leyland
55   Posted 25/09/2011 at 14:36:37

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Brian - In answer to your question no I won't be happy if we start with the same tactics and team against the shite and lose. Like you I am never happy if we lose. However I am always happy when we win, regardless of what tactics we Play or who is in the starting 11. I don't think the same goes for a lot of people on toffeeweb who will only be happy if we win 3 or 4 nil every week. Football is about winning or losing. In 1985/86 we played some great football and Lineker scored 40 goals and Sharpie 25. We won fuck all and lost the double to the shite. We actually outplayed them for 60 minutes of the cup final but I still had to come home on a coach half full of kopites and go to into school on the Monday. No one cared that we outplayed them cos we lost and that is all the history books show you. In yesterday's game Moyes set Everton up not to lose we were never going to be able to outplay them. As someone mentioned earlier they had won 19 of their last 21 home games since we beat them last year. In fact in that game we played pretty much the same way as yesterday. But the difference is that we won that and lost yesterday. They scored a deflected shot which I think would have been saved by Howard but for the drflection and a second late on because Drenthe gave the ball away when we were attacking. Again all this is irrelevant cos we lost and that is what the history books show. So, if we win next week and play 442 or 460 I don't give a fuck cos we will have won. If we win Moyes isn't a genius and I'd we lose he isn't some clueless fuckwit who knows nothing about coaching at the top level.
Ryan Holroyd
56   Posted 25/09/2011 at 15:36:50

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I find it strange that after 4 successive wins at City we go there with City having improved again to almost 100m or so, and with us more reliant on youth and free signings as a result of having to cut debt, and people are radio rental because we lost a game at home to a team who pissed on Spurs 5-1 at WHL a few weeks ago.

If we'd have opened up and left Nasri, Silva, Aguero to roam free we'd have got absolutely hammered.

People need to get a bit of perspective and see we have lost 30 odd million pounds of players and not replaced them.

We're two injuies away from having a bench
John Ford
57   Posted 25/09/2011 at 17:32:11

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Agreed Ryan 55

Its as if Mancini just buys and buys until he stumbles accross a team which can challenge. Its like fantasy football. Nic ework if you can get it. Im pretty certain id manage well under those conditions

We have noone with the ability of the three players you mention, then they have their second string strikers Tevez and Dellibelli. Mindblowing.

One thing though it is time to drop Cahill from the front line. Lets see Vellios start against the RS.

Brendan O'Doherty
58   Posted 25/09/2011 at 17:57:00

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Funny that the rest of the football world doesn't at all think that it was embarrassing they way we set up yesterday, only on here strangely enough.... mmm.
Trevor Mackie
59   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:00:42

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"Funny that the rest of the football world doesn't at all think that it was embarrassing they way we set up yesterday, only on here strangely enough....mmm."

Of course Brendan - could you quote your sources or is it just another sweeping statement trying to be offered as fact by the Moyes brigade?
Brendan O'Doherty
60   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:21:36

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Sources are the 3 different post-match analyses I have watched Trevor, along with the general feeling on other internet football forums. I'm not part of any brigade btw. Nor was I presenting it as fact; just pointing out that the general consensus differs from that on here. Now, is that fact or opinion I ask myself...

John Daley
61   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:34:39

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Brendan, that's bollocks. Have you seen anything actually praising Moyes and his tactics, apart from the posts on here from the usual suspects?

A quick 10 second search on Google brings up the following:

"Smash & Trash ? Rodwell stars but Manchester City overcome negative Everton tactics"

"Everton played anti-football

City have form for this themselves. Last year at the Emirates they began with no strikers on the pitch and built a road-block from the first kick to the last. They duly got widely panned for it so it?s only fair that Everton receive flak here for doing likewise.

A 4-6-0 formation and time-wasting from the 40th minute onwards was nothing short of a disgrace. There is nothing wrong with setting your stall out or parking the bus or whatever euphemism you wish to use, especially against a side who?s scored for fun of late, but when taken to such an extreme yesterday equated to football v anti-football. It was two ends of the sport?s evolutionary scale doing battle and any moral high ground Evertonians seek in their virtuous non-mercenary ways crumbled beneath their feet. The school of science? If you know your history it?s enough to make your heart sink."

Gavin Ramejkis
62   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:31:22

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Brendan I work with a Citeh fan and can guarantee as he has already text me to say so, he thought our setup was embarrasing and knew it was just a matter of time before they scored. I take the word of people who actually go to games over some armchair pillocks like Hansen, Shearer, etc any day of the week as they churn out the same reports week in week out almost to the letter.
John Daley
63   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:42:53

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Missed one off:

"Everton are the most negative team seen at Etihad since City under Pearce. ..."
Jimmy Sorheim
64   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:32:32

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Funny thing I tried playing a game of Football Manager and I was suprised at seeing the attributes of moyes managing skills in attack and defence. His defence skills was 17 out of 20 while his attacking was 9 out of 20. It has been shown that the statistics in this game are the most detailed in the world of football, and I have to agree. We need a new manager; I prefer Martin O'Neill.
Brendan McLaughlin
65   Posted 25/09/2011 at 18:48:27

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John #60
Took your advice & did a quick search on Google. First comment I read that Everton adopted tactics that worked well for most of the game but were eventually undone. The second was along the lines of broken but unbowed.

So it proves nothing really....other than the really disturbing thought that Google brings up results that panders to our pro or anti-Moyes predisposition.
Brendan O'Doherty
66   Posted 25/09/2011 at 19:28:34

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Gavin, your City mate " knew it was just a matter of time before they scored." Did he ?! Great clairvoyance he is blessed with! Personally I thought we might hold out for the draw, but for an unlucky deflection and then having to open up a bit in search of the equaliser.

John #60,I agree with the comment referred to by Brendan #64, that we adopted tactics which worked well but we were eventually undone. Just because some have said they were negative, which is undeniable, doesn't mean that they weren't the right tactics or were embarrassing. I was actually quite surprised to see that 40% of people who voted in the poll on the front page thought that they were OK. Your viewpoint is absolutely fine and understandable, but you are stretching things if you believe it is the majority viewpoint. There is (Evertonian) life outside TW you know..... ;-)

Alan Clarke
67   Posted 25/09/2011 at 20:26:38

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Ryan, by that reasoning we should beat Spurs 3-0 then?

The thing is no one on here is saying if we'd played 4-4-2 we'd have won. No one is saying it's that simple. What we're appalled with is the fact we went there with no intention of trying to win. We went down without a fight. Over the years of watching Everton, that is the inexcusable. I'll accept we've a team of no marks at the moment and I point the finger of blame at Kenwright for that and for that reason I'll accept losing. BUT I won't accept that type of performance.

What is the point in going to a game if you have no belief in winning? That is the reason the attendances are dropping. If the manager doesn't believe we'll win games then why should the fans? We're a total fucking shambles and the sooner Kenwright and Moyes fuck off the sooner we can get on with regaining some respect in our club.
Andrew Rimmer
68   Posted 25/09/2011 at 20:54:10

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Ryan "If we'd have opened up and left Nasri, Silva, Aguero to roam free we'd have got absolutely hammered. "
Why on earth would we want to do that? You can play a defensive 4-4-2 you know If you busy their defenders then they can'y busy ours as much, simples!

Ian Tunstead
69   Posted 25/09/2011 at 21:22:23

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Correct me if i'm wrong but wasnt it still 0-0 untill Moyes had to bring Saha on? Within a couple of minutes of Saha coming on wernt we 1-0 down? Wasnt it only 1-0 untill Moyes brought the other attacking players on and our attacking player cost us the 2nd goal?

Even with the attacking players on did we have any more goal threat than we did without the strikers on? Not that i could see, so on reflection i think if Moyes had of started with our attacking players on the score would have been similar to that of the Man City Spurs game, or even Man Utd Arsenal game.
Lori Fekete
70   Posted 25/09/2011 at 21:30:27

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IMO Moyes got the tactics right , just the wrong personnel. Vellios/Saha up front and Drenthe on left .
Silva, Nasri, Auguero all quiet until we had to change it. Rodwell was a masterstroke. Just wish Moyes could drop out of form Cahill, hopefully he's got no choice but to play a bloody striker against the RS.
Chris Leyland
71   Posted 25/09/2011 at 21:52:06

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Ian - sssh - you can't let the facts get in the way of the ranting of certain toffeewebbers. It doesn't matter that what you say is true because the point is Moyes knows nothing about tactics and should have played 2 upfront from the start. If we had Di Matteo/Hooloway/Martinez or whichever manager puts a couple of wins together the week we lose then we would be wining week in week out clearly.

John Daley - re: reports on the gaem. I read the Telegraph the Tines and the Observer reports today and none of them really laid into us. One pointed out that City had spent £130m in the past 15 months to our £1m. Another alluded to the fact that it was the paupers v the billionaires. However, most agreed that our gameplan nearly worked. The difference being City could bring on a £24m player who can play upfront or out wide to change it. Mancini himself is quoted as saying he chose Ballotelli over Tevez to bring on for this very reason as his team couldn't break Everton down. The point is he could chose to bring on a £24m player of a £45m player. We could chose a £50 grand teenager or a has-been who is out for 3 months everytime he sneezes.
John Ford
72   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:23:23

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Lori. I reckon Vellios instead of Cahill but Cahill to replace Neville across the mid 5.
Chris Leyland
73   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:17:19

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Jimmy post 63 "we need a new manager. I prefer O'Neill"


Is it because he manages to get his teams to finish higher in the Prem than Moyes?

Let's see - only time they managed at the same time in the Prem was 2006 to 2010.

During that time O'Neill finished: 11th, 6th,6th, and 6th.
Moyes finished 6th, 5th,5th, and 8th.

So 3-1 to Moyes on that count. Can't be that then.

Is it because he wins more games?

Let's see - during the same 4 year period Moyes won 67 games to O'Neill's 61. Another win for Davey so can't be that either.

Is it because his teams score more goals? Let's see:
Same period O'Neill 220, Moyes 222. Nope can't be that one either.

Maybe. it is the fact his teams concede less goals?
O'Neill 179 Moyes 155. So Davey wins again.

So tell us, given all of the above, why do you want O'Neill to take over from Moyes?
David Mathieson
74   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:29:38

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Chris #73 I think it is not too difficult to fathom why someone would want O'Neil over Moyes; the main reasons I would say: O'Neil has actually won trophies and has an OBE for services to sport(got to be better than an LMA award).

Lori Fekete
75   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:31:11

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totally agree, just meant dropping Cahill as lone striker.
David Mathieson
76   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:36:50

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Ryan Holroyd 55#
"...people are radio rental because we lost a game at home to a team who pissed on Spurs 5-1 "
Did you even watch the game? We were at the Etihad stadium not at Goodison Park!

Must have been a Freudian slip the ?home? bit.
Dean Adams
77   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:34:48

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Chris Leyland 72

That made me smile!!!!
Mike Green
78   Posted 25/09/2011 at 22:57:52

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Ian Tunstead (68) - that post is so good you should post it twice, stick it on again!
Chris Leyland
79   Posted 25/09/2011 at 23:05:46

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David 73 - It IS actually difficult to fathom why you would want O'Neill over Moyes simply because of the stats I showed.

This is the only time and way you can compare the two managers as this is the only time they managed at the same level together. On all counts Moyes came out on top. And this is before factoring in that O'Neil had a greater net transfer spend than Moyes in the same period

As such, I don't really care if he an OBE for services to sport. It certainly isn't a reason to want him as manager of Everton. and BTW I don't actually think an OBE is better than 3 LMA Manager of the year awards. If I was a manager I'd rather be given an award by my peers than one chosen by the Government!

Yes, O'Neill may have "won things" but the vast majority of those wins were for Celtic. Walter Smith won things too in Scotland. Shall we get him back so we can return to the consistent bottom 6 finishes every year we had when he was last manager?

O'Neill won the Carling Cup in England in the pre-Sky days too so shall we get him because of that?> In that case let's get Alex McLeish in shall we as he won it last year? Oh hang on, he got relegated from the premier league last year despite out-spending Moyes. Tellme would you rather win the Carling Cup and get relegated or finish top 7 and not?

Mike Green
80   Posted 25/09/2011 at 23:10:51

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Jesus - they're all at it! Go on Chris Leyland now there's a post! It doesn't even sound "apologetic".

The reason people want O'Neill as manager is because he's a sprightly Irishman who jumps around on the touchline in trackie bottoms and says "incredible, amazing, my players, journey" at lot in interviews rather than a dour Scot who says "I thought we did well, were unlucky today, stuck to our principles".

I have a lot of respect for Martin O'Neill but I think he's done as good a PR job as a football one.
Ian Edwards
81   Posted 25/09/2011 at 23:23:56

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Chris Leyland

I dont particularly want O'Neill but I doubt he would not try to win games and adopt tactics that make fans ashamed and embarrassed of their club.
Mike Green
82   Posted 25/09/2011 at 23:32:57

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Ian (80) - how many games has Moyes won against City?
Chris Leyland
83   Posted 25/09/2011 at 23:53:10

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Ian -80, O'Neil might "try" and win games but as my previous post showed he didn't ACTUALLY win more games than Moyes during the period they were both managing at the same level. But hey, as long as he "tries" that's the main thing isn't it?
John Ford
84   Posted 25/09/2011 at 23:59:53

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''The reason people want O'Neill as manager is because he's a sprightly Irishman who jumps around on the touchline in trackie bottoms and says "incredible, amazing, my players, journey" at lot in interviews''

......gotta love that!!
David Mathieson
85   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:16:47

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You embellish Moyes? achievements then belittle O?Neill?s which is quite amusing considering the facts: O?Neill has achieved far more in the game than Moyes and the time table you quote Moyes has an average fininsh of 6th O?Neill has an average of 7th hardly a chasm.

This is bit confusing ?I don't really care if he an OBE for services to sport? because the last time I checked OBEs were not handed out for fuck all; O?Neil Received his OBE for winning league titles, reaching Uefa Cup Finals with resources far below Everton?s at Celtic also he received it for his achievements at Leicester you can ignore it all you want but what has Moyes done of real distinction? Tell me something from Moyes that can honestly stand up to O?Neil?s Achievements?

?This is the only time and way you can compare the two managers as this is the only time they managed at the same level together. On all counts Moyes came out on top. And this is before factoring in that O'Neil had a greater net transfer spend than Moyes in the same period?
That paragraph ^^ I find most scary because I know you genuinely believe this to be true but whatever for me: I think it is not only fair but prudent to consider both men?s whole careers as well as considering the factor O?Neil May of spent more but what were where each sides starting points? Did O?Neil inherit a Rooney to use/sell?; what was the difference in spend at time F1, F2, F3, F4( f = finish) that you quote ie 5th 5th 6th 8th .

More Belittling of O?Neill here ?O'Neill may have "won things" but the vast majority of those wins were for Celtic? Who is to say Moyes would win anything in Scotland never mind match O?Neill?s Achievements also this ?In that case let's get Alex McLeish in shall we as he won it last year?? Since when did Alex Mcleissh be on a level with O?Neill? Better still when has O?Neil ever been relegated?

All in all O?Neill is a better manager by facts (why someone COULD consider him for EVERTON) but there is no denying Moyes has done well at Everton but embellishing his modest achievements at Everton does no-one no favours.
Mick Davies
86   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:19:31

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Some so-called Evertonains on here make me wanna puke. "lets go back to the bad old days" they warn us. Well in the bad old days, with a bunch of players nowhere near as talented as the likes of Fellaini, Coleman, Saha, Drenthe, Rodwell etc. EFC actually went to Wembley and played the great Man. Utd and beat them, with Ferguson and Rideout on the park!! Football tactics? No, just plain common-sense. If you want to win matches, you have to score goals. If you want to score goals, it's a good idea to have players on the pitch in the correct postions like AJ, Yakubu, Beckford etc. who can score them, and players like Arteta, Fernandes, Donovan, Pienaar etc. who can create them. Hardly needs a Ph D to work that one out
David Mathieson
87   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:28:57

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Mick best post I have read on here in a long time! If it was down to Moyes and his followers we would have played 4-6-0 claiming Limpar was a striker because they?re bigger/better/spent more.

Our club needs more locals like Royle
Ian Smitham
88   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:38:01

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Alan, What is the point in going to a game if you have no belief in winning?

Just for completeness, when did you last go to Goodison??
Lori Fekete
89   Posted 26/09/2011 at 00:30:17

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We may have won the FA cup in 'the bad old day's but we were also in a relegation scrap every other season.
So yes i'd rather be challenging for Europe every year.

As for O'Neil, give me a break! OBE over LMA awards. completely over rated IMO and he left Villa because of promises over transfer budgets, he'd fuck off after two minutes with Everton.
Mike Green
90   Posted 26/09/2011 at 01:07:03

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Absolutely correct Lori.
Chris Leyland
91   Posted 26/09/2011 at 01:42:56

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David 85.

I was not "embellishing" Moyes achievements as i used factual analysis rather than embellishment.

You also state that "they don't hand out OBE's for fuck all." I would refer you to Paul Collingwood MBE who received his award for a grand total of 17 runs in the 2005 Ashes. Yep a mighty 7 and a 10 in the fifth test match was well worthy of a gong from the British establishment and provides comclus
Chris Leyland
92   Posted 26/09/2011 at 01:42:56

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David 85.

I was not "embellishing" Moyes achievements as i used factual analysis rather than embellishment.

You also state that "they don't hand out OBE's for fuck all." I would refer you to Paul Collingwood MBE who received his award for a grand total of 17 runs in the 2005 Ashes. Yep a mighty 7 and a 10 in the fifth test match was well worthy of a gong from the British establishment and provides comclus
Chris Leyland
93   Posted 26/09/2011 at 01:42:56

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David 85.

I was not "embellishing" Moyes achievements as i used factual analysis rather than embellishment.

You also state that "they don't hand out OBE's for fuck all." I would refer you to Paul Collingwood MBE who received his award for a grand total of 17 runs in the 2005 Ashes. Yep a mighty 7 and a 10 in the fifth test match was well worthy of a gong from the British establishment and provides comclus
Chris Leyland
94   Posted 26/09/2011 at 01:42:56

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David 85.

I was not "embellishing" Moyes achievements as i used factual analysis rather than embellishment.

You also state that "they don't hand out OBE's for fuck all." I would refer you to Paul Collingwood MBE who received his award for a grand total of 17 runs in the 2005 Ashes. Yep a mighty 7 and a 10 in the fifth test match was well worthy of a gong from the British establishment and provides comclus
Chris Leyland
95   Posted 26/09/2011 at 01:42:56

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David 85.

I was not "embellishing" Moyes achievements as i used factual analysis rather than embellishment.

You also state that "they don't hand out OBE's for fuck all." I would refer you to Paul Collingwood MBE who received his award for a grand total of 17 runs in the 2005 Ashes. Yep a mighty 7 and a 10 in the fifth test match was well worthy of a gong from the British establishment and provides comclus
Chris Leyland
96   Posted 26/09/2011 at 01:42:56

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David 85.

I was not "embellishing" Moyes achievements as i used factual analysis rather than embellishment.

You also state that "they don't hand out OBE's for fuck all." I would refer you to Paul Collingwood MBE who received his award for a grand total of 17 runs in the 2005 Ashes. Yep a mighty 7 and a 10 in the fifth test match was well worthy of a gong from the British establishment and provides comclus
Khoon Yean Soo Hoo
97   Posted 26/09/2011 at 01:58:54

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I never agree to Cahill playing the forward role. Its too negative !

I think its a negative tactic that went wrong that's all
David Mathieson
98   Posted 26/09/2011 at 02:06:10

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You did embellish Moyes? achievements by stating the only way to compare the two men was a given period (of your choosing) ie one where Moyes got a very slight upperhand(which made him greater overall) on O'Neill which never took into account the full career record or circumstance which when taken into account shows O'Neill to have achieved far more(therefore he is a greater manager) who by the way took over a Villa side that finished 16th in (2005/2006)... what was his record again? 11th(2006/2007) 6th(+1) 6th(+1) 6th(+1) not bad at all.

Chris this is a corker: ?You also state that "they don't hand out OBE's for fuck all."...I would refer you to Paul Collingwood MBE who received his award for a grand total of 17 runs in the 2005 Ashes...?

I said OBEs not "MBE"s; OBE is rated higher than an "MBE" which is why this Collingwood fellow has received one maybe Moyes will one day as well(MBE) furthermore ask Sir Alex what he prefers more his CBE or his LMA award? I think I know what his answer would be... I could be wrong though.
Jason Lam
99   Posted 26/09/2011 at 03:45:36

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I just don't understand why Osman get a game. It's nothing to do with size or lack of. Silva and Modric are exactly big. Why does Osman get any playing time at all at this level? On the few runs he had with the ball you JUST KNOW he will be bundled off the ball before he reaches their penalty area. Every fucking time. He links up play and covers areas? He's not exactly Ballack is he. WHY THE FUCK IS HE WEARING OUR SHIRT?

Saha is getting old. All the fuss about being left out off the team and sod all on the pitch. He's as worse as Osman in dribbling in the middle of the park and inevitably losing the ball.

So Man City have billions in the bank and player talent. But they can't do much if the balls in the clouds. Hoof that fucker in the box and try dealing with Vellios and Denis. Keep it simple, forwards knock it across to the wings, and enjoy the aerial bombardment.
Nelly Verdonghan
100   Posted 26/09/2011 at 09:19:33

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Always the same...

I have said it before and will do so again....HE IS NOT A GREAT MANAGER

His tactics are absolutely play ANY game and not openly try to win it but try to hang on and nick a goal is just unacceptable IMO...(and Saturday wasn't there first time by any means)...

6-4-0 is an insult and he does it every week...his apologists will try to defend him by saying Cahill is playing as a striker but the fact is Cahill is NOT a striker he is just a midfield player PLAYING OUT OF POSITION....yet another one....

Yes we have our financial problems but Kenwright cannot be blames for the tactics and game plan of the manager on Saturday....or any other game for that matter

Davie thanks for getting us from were we where to were we are.... but now the good times are gone and your time is done....
David Holroyd
101   Posted 26/09/2011 at 11:04:14

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Crowds are going down, the future generation of young Evertonians is at risk if we play that utter rubbish. After about 35 mins the pressure was begining to grow . Moyes should have tried something differant at half time MOYES wont quit cos hes on 60 grand a week and we are goiing to give him a longer contract God Help US
Phil Martin
102   Posted 26/09/2011 at 12:13:34

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Name one club which has over the last 5 years spent less than Everton and consistently finished higher.

Name one club which has over the last 5 years spent less than Everton, finished consistently higher AND played better football.

The answer to both questions is the same: no-one!

It hurts to see EFC reduced to this but looking over the course of recent history proves Moyes' methods. They may not meet our previous glories, or fit with the school of science motto.

But if you want to applaud a guy who has ran the club into a financial shit heap (and made no apologies for it). Then you shouldn't complain when you're served up a plate of manure.

Blaming the manager for not going all out, against superior opposition is half the story. Unfortunately with Sir Bill and friends in charge, things will only get worse.
Christine Foster
103   Posted 26/09/2011 at 13:40:29

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So it's come to this, pragmatic realists who now tell us that's the best we can expect because we have no money?

That's crap. Sorry but just because you haven't spent couple of hundred million on a team doesn't excuse the fact that you leave all your strikers on the bench and wonder why we never score?

The point of the game is to score goals or have l missed something? Where are the crowds? Well, if you take away the Hope, you remove Faith and we are left with a team based on Charity.

Three years ago l wrote that the inability of the board to find new owners whilst living on a credit card would bring this team to its knees.

It's disgusting that many on here just accept that survival is the best we can wish for. Where is the ambition, the passion and the determination to make this club great? One thing is for certain, it's not in the boardroom or the training ground. We have a manager happy to pick up his wages and a team so devoid of flair, driven out by work rate behind a ball. Every striker, every one, has suffered under Moyes, every sodding one. Get the picture yet?

I watched Arsenal the other day, just so l could see Arteta play, have you seen him swagger again? I would not be surprised if he is playing for Spain within a season. Can we honestly say that ANY of our current team look as if they are enjoying themselves or at the top of their game?

We are where we are because of complacency of a poor board and a split fan base that resulted from a failed strategy. Nothing has been fixed on or off the field. In fact both are now devoid of a future under the present regimes.

Kenwright and Moyes are joined at the hip, the only way forward will be for both to move on, hopefully at the same time. We await a savior.

Martin Mason
104   Posted 26/09/2011 at 14:17:08

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Nobody on this board accepts either failure or mediocrity. There are some though that realise the nonsense that we can somehow compete with Man City after spending nothing compared to their half billion pounds. We actually played well at times Saturday and the only issue for me is playing Cahill who regularly scores against them and who plays as a striker for his country or loanees and cheap buys with no experience at this level. Anybody who believes we should have played 4-4-2 against city in reality accepts that it's OK to ship half a dozen as long as we play the game. Wrong, 0-0 is vastly better even if we play negatively, that is the reality of playing in a league where for everybody except a handful of teams survival is everything.

Anybody who seriously believes that changing Moyes and Kenwright out for an unknown entity with unknown resources also needs to get a grip. The difference between relegation and a what is a very respectable position in the EPL for us is Moyes.

I believe that accepting negativity at times (and I hate it) is far better than the ultimate in wishful thinking that a small club like EFC can compete at the highest level in the EPL or even more laughable, that a saviour is around the corner.

I despair for our club and I really struggle to see who or what is more damaging, Kenwright and Moyes or the minority of our fans who are turning their back on the club just when it's in need of support. Those who would say it's not what I can do for you but what are you going to do for me? I demand success, demand it hear me.
Michael Evans
105   Posted 26/09/2011 at 14:23:22

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Christine- ".. If you take away the Hope, you remove Faith and we are left with a team based on Charity."

Thank you for so eloquently voicing the despair, rage and frustration that so many of us are feeling at this time.

Whilst there are still people who care enough to see beyond the smokescreen, mirrors and well oiled Everton PR department then HOPE remains.

Michael Evans
106   Posted 26/09/2011 at 14:31:11

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Martin - ".. that a small club like EFC"



Are you sure that's how YOU see us?

Sorry Martin, I've seen Everton Championship winning sides.

The point you accept mediocrity is the point when all HOPE really has been lost.

Wayne Smyth
107   Posted 26/09/2011 at 17:26:20

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Michael, worrying as it is, it appears that our manager thinks we should be accepting of mediocrity too.

I think that's what has upset so many of us; not that we expected the team to beat Man City, but that we'd go there with a bit of belief that we had some chance of winning. City may have spent a shit load of money and they do have a couple of world-class players, but they are not yet Barcelona.

Like I've said in other posts though, Moyes has insisted on dour, negative football regardless of who we're playing, so those trying to defend his selection based on the gulf in resources are mistaken.

I remember when Moyes came to the club and said that his job was about raising expectations. He galvanised the club with his ambition and energy. Seems like he's lost his mojo if you ask me, he looks a broken man and has done for a while.
Martin Mason
108   Posted 26/09/2011 at 17:51:17

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I watched most games in 1963, every game in 69-70 and most games of the two championship winning sides in the 80's. Everton are now a small club because all that determines your size is your cash flow and ours is about Championsip side level. I don't accept mediocrity because EFC are anything but mediocre, they are a top 10 EPL side which is incredible based on their resources. I'm just a realist that sees the actualite of Everton's situation. We are basically a championship side in a false position in the EPL. We have massive potential to become a real championship side and what is stopping us is our club's ability to produce good young players and buy cheap potential. Moyes has his weaknesses but believe me, like every pundit says, when Moyes goes we will go down. We were basically finished in 1991 and I believe that what we are seeing now is the end game. Split fan base, plummeting gates and no hope of seeing this reversed.
Roberto Birquet
109   Posted 26/09/2011 at 20:37:25

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This is what Moyes does and ? despite web critics ? he is lauded by the majority, only the threat of relegation will produce criticism.
Even though it is Moyes who has rid of that threat. Truth is - as incovenient as it is for some - Everton was a relegation-battling club prior to Moyes. We were less than Leicester for much of the mid-90s to early noughties.

I had no problem with the tactics at City, and we were fairly comfy until the linesman was unable to see that the ball cannoned off the City winger (even though he was barely a yard away).

City have now got too many top players. One thing is trying to mark one player out of the game, but trying marking four key attackers out of the game, while being expansive, too. Maybe at home, but not at the Billionaires' place. You may want o call it the right spirit, but you'll be taken to the cleaners to play expansive at City. Naive to say otherwise.

And the truth is we have top defenders and CMs. And when at City, we haven't the strikers yet. (God I hope we have the Arteta money in Jan, after selling almost £20 million before losing him). Some think that is Moyes' safety first style, but buying top strikers and wingers is far more expensive than defenders, and we ain't got any money.
Peter Hall
110   Posted 26/09/2011 at 20:46:13

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If you go to City (United, Chelsea, Arsenal)and don't score then you will lose. Fact. These teams ALWAYS score at home If you don't even try to score you are beaten and deserve to be.That's what we were. This is not deep tactics put an obvious statistic.

To have a chance of a point you have to score. To have a chance of scoring you have to try to score. We didn't try to score. Tim Cahill had a few important touches - around our own penalty area.

So did Moyes get this one right? Well, I think he got it totally wrong, and even a 1000-1 against nil-nil draw wouldn't have justified his approach.

Personally, I don't believe in tribal warfare. For or against. For me he's a good manager who got this totally wrong. His assessment of upside and downside risk (the key for any decision-maker) was hopelessly wrong on Saturday.
Brendan O'Doherty
111   Posted 27/09/2011 at 02:14:13

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"Everton came very close to pulling off yet another fine result at the Etihad Stadium and Roberto Mancini's multi-million pound had little clue how to break down their stubborn resistance before Mario Balotelli's lucky deflection off Phil Jagielka."

The Mirror today. Stop the misery FFS.
Colin Wainwright
112   Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:06:29

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"Moyes has his weaknesses but believe me, like every pundit says, when Moyes goes we will go down. We were basically finished in 1991 and I believe that what we are seeing now is the end game. Split fan base, plummeting gates and no hope of seeing this reversed." .......

Aye, cos the pundits always get it fuckin right eh? If this is the end game Martin (#108), do us a favour and fuck off.

Small club my arse.
Trevor Mackie
113   Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:24:06

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Brendan @ 111

If it's in the paper it's gospel then?

Your brain washed - use your eyes ffs.
Dean Adams
114   Posted 27/09/2011 at 21:42:44

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Peter Hall

"f you go to City (United, Chelsea, Arsenal)and don't score then you will lose. Fact. These teams ALWAYS score at home If you don't even try to score you are beaten and deserve to be.That's what we were. This is not deep tactics put an obvious statistic."

That is just not fact is it. Last season we beat Man City at thier ground. Perhaps you could say that United seem to always score at home but the statement you made is not fact, it is just a reactioary statement made probably out of frustration. I would imagine that most EFC fans feel frustration at the moment.
Chris Leyland
115   Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:10:25

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David 98 - Walter Smith Won 10 Scottish titles, 9 Scottish cups (league and SFA) questions - is he a greater manager than O'Neill as a result using your logic?

Would you therefore want Walter Smith back as Everton Manager? Using your logic the answer should be yes, question is it yes or no?

I like your clarification of the OBE/MBE distinction. My point, in an earlier post was that I don't like the whole "honours" system. As such, I dn't make a distinction between the CBE, OBE, MBE gravy train.Fred Goodwin, the man who bust a bank was given a knighthood,. As such, and using your logic, is he therefore a better person than Martin O'Neill?Again yes or no.

I again reassert that I have not embelished anyone's record - I based it purely on facts in a period that was the only time the 2 people in questionn were contemporaries. if you need to use the whole career to compare then, I ask again, do you want Walter Smith back as manager as he is better over the course of his career than Moyes or O'Neill? Again a yes or no from you will suffice.

You mentioned that Villa finished 16ht the season before O'Neill took over but you neglect to mention that during the 4 year period I compared the two managers, O'Neill had a net spend of £82m against Moyes net spend of circa £2.6m per season. Again, despite this disparity Moyes finished higher 3 times, scored more goals, and conceded less goals won more games than Marton Oneill. Btw Villa also reached the Carling Cup Final but Everton reached the FA Cup final.

So, taking the highly prized OBE aside, which ranks Martin alongside: Anthony Edward Langford. Non-Executive director, John Smedley. For services to the Knitwear Industry, Mrs Michelle Mone. Founder and Owner, MJM International Group. For services to the Lingerie Industry, and Richard Parfitt. Co-Founder, Singer and Guitarist, Status Quo. For services to Music, do you stand by your argument and will you be campaigning for "Walter Smith for Everton" using your own logic?

Brendan O'Doherty
116   Posted 28/09/2011 at 02:09:15

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Trevor # 113. No, it is you who are brainwashed by the shite you read on here. I was merely pointing out yet another source which forms the general consensus which I alluded to earlier in the thread. That is a strange accusation coming from you since you were the person who asked me to provide other sources of that viewpoint.

08457909090 is the phone number of the Samaritans. Sounds like you and some others may need it.

Martin Mason
117   Posted 28/09/2011 at 04:19:27

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I like seeing the white flag in any discussion.
Colin Wainwright
118   Posted 28/09/2011 at 14:06:21

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No white flag Martin. I haven't given up on the club fella.
Just sick of hearing about how small a club we are.

Sick of hearing about plummeting gates that can't be reversed.

Fuckin sick to death of hearing that we're down if Moyes leaves.

Bemused at how you knew we where finished in '91.(WTF?)

In one post you demand success, in the next you claim that this is the 'endgame'. You're not a realist who sees the actuality of EFCs situation, you're just a bit of a nob.
David Mathieson
119   Posted 28/09/2011 at 15:02:59

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Colin Harvey is a better manager than Sir Alex because he scored more, finished above them blah blah when the ?2 people in question were contemporaries? Harvey came out on top, so why anyone would want Ferguson above Harvey is beyond me? (by your logic). When in actual fact fact their overall records are far more telling therefore anyone with sense would make a case for Ferguson to be Everton manager... Can you see how I embellished Colin Harvey?s achievements? Do you understand embellishing now? NO? Oh well.....

?I don't like the whole "honours" system? Maybe so... but look at this: people with "honours" from within the game: Alex Ferguson (CBE) ? trophies coming out his ass; Arsene Wenger (OBE) ? two doubles, undefeated season, Walter Smith (OBE) ? trophies coming his ass (even advised Everton to get Moyes and stabilised the club); Martin O?Neil (OBE) ? lots of trophies (Leicester which were not pre Sky era!!!!!!!, Celtic). Moyes has no ?honours? ... funny thing is, he also has no trophies.

You mention Moyes's net spend compared to O?Neill?s, Moyes's net per season (Smaller Number) then O?Neill?s net all seasons! (Larger Number) this way of displaying your figures is embellishment to make your argument more attractive!...

Just as a point: what was O?Neill?s spend/net spend at Leicester? Where he won trophies as well... You also only mention net spend, now there is a spend column usually accompanied by net spend column in analysis and it is there for a reason; an obvious one.

Last of your questions:
Smith v O?Neill ? tough one O?Neil won trophies in England both winners clearly.
Smith for Everton? You should never go back but he done a fine job for us after taking over Kendall. Carsley and Gravesen were inspired signings not to mention leaving Moyes Rooney as well them and others.
campaigning for "Walter Smith for Everton"?... my logic dictates no see above ^^^^ Will you be campaigning for Harvey back at Everton? Or will you admit Sir Alex is a better manager?

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