What does success look like to you?

I hear what you're saying mate, and I guess I agree. Sucks though.

Was I dreaming or did Wolfsburg win the league a few years back in Germany? If you get the tactics right on the pitch and play everyone in their preferred positions, you have that level playing field that everyone craves.

I managed a youth team in Colchester that had just formed with seven never having played competitively; they finished mid-table first season, winners the following year, in a league with far better squads than our own. Team spirit and players knowing what their role was in the team was the formula. Everton have one out of two!

I have to agree with you, don't like it, not many will, but you're right!

To me, success looked like the Everton "Galacticos" of Reid, Steven, Sheedy and Sharp etc walking around Goodison taking the warm applause after winning the championship in the mid-80's.

Therein lies the problem with Everton. If you're old enough you can get by (just) on the fantastic memories of better days.

Will future generations accept that 7th or 8th is good enough? That that will constitute success with the occasional good result against a BIGGER team thrown in for good measure?

"Accept our fate," say many, "and make the best of it..." with "realism" as their buzzword.... maybe they're right.

However, for me football is all about winning. So I shall ignore the calls to be "realistic" and expect the highly paid manager to put 11 players onto the pitch who are prepared to give everything for the Everton cause.

Well said Michael (4). Success is a comparative concept ? Chelsea sack managers for finishing second, we reward a manager for finishing 5, 6 or 7th. It all depends on aspirations and that is where the board have failed us time and time again.

The aspirations bar has been lowered over the years ? as evidenced by the state of the stadium, the marketing, the recruitment policy etc ? and this has fed through to a lot of the fans. Thanks to ToffeeWeb and a lot of the contributors for trying to keep the aspirations up.

I agree with the majority of the column, I remember bragging to Liverpool fans that Everton were the league winners when I was very young, but since the 90s we have been a mid-table team at best. The 1995 FA Cup win and the top six finishes have been 'what success looks like to me'. Unfortunately Everton being top of the tree only really exists to me through video, I'm sad to say.

As for taking in Man City's 'rejects', I will say this ? each one of the players mentioned earns at least double per week than Baines does. That money has to come from somewhere, then if you pay anywhere near what they are earning now, I expect current players would start knocking on the door wanting parity. I honestly don't see us taking in any of City's players.

The squad that we have under achieved last season. There were some utterly abysmal performances that cannot be explained by lack of funds. There are few on this site who will defend Kenwright but he's here to stay.

What I ask is, considering our position on and off the pitch, are we doing the best posible? No.

Chris I'd say the French and German leagues are importantly different to the Premier League. I'm not an expert but basically, apart from a Lyon dynasty, many clubs in France are of similar size, and all find and produce good quality players. In Germany, you have one dominant club in Bayern Munich, and if they have a bad season then someone else can win, as the financial disparity is not as great between the rest.

In England, the cartel of the Sky4 has dominated the last ten years, and the Champions League has increased the financial disparity in a way it hasn't in other leagues where different clubs have been able to qualify for it.

You are of course generally right though when you say "get the tactics right on the pitch and play everyone in their preferred positions, you have that level playing field that everyone craves." but what if we are doing that on our budget, and six teams are doing the same on budgets ranging from double to ten times ours? We don't have much chance do we? Especially as those other clubs can afford to employ the cream of the coaching crop as well as the playing crop.

The key difference between now and the 90s, and this is something I wish could be addressed through rules or contract clauses, is the number of players the bigger clubs have. They don't even use them, but they deny other clubs the chance to have them. If you take an average Premier League weekend, I reckon there are far better 'teams' or groups of eleven players not playing due to being on the bench or left out altogether than there are on the pitch. Sturridge is a prime example, barely even on the bench at Chelsea, then hottest property in the league after going on loan to Bolton. I can't see how it'll happen, but the league will become stronger and more entertaining, and fairer, if we can find a way to get the talent on the pitch, rather than sitting out picking up the cheque.

It looks silver and shiny to me.

Would people accept a focus moving towards cups from the league.

IMO we have a decent chance of winning a cup every season, we have no chance of winning the league and we have no chance of getting in the top 4 barring a crazy run of luck with injuries to one of the richest 4 and an equally crazy run of good luck with our own threadbare squad.

#8 Mike Allison, the IMWT brigade will remind us that Moyes has consistently finished above or around teams that spend double to ten times our budget. And this is despite the team never hitting full stride until after Christmas. This is what builds our hopes up at the start of every season. Imagining where we could end up if we came out the gates producing top form for the entire season. Unfortunately the team has never lived up to its full potential. We see what they're capable of in brief, magnificent spells before it all turns to shit again and again.

So if Moyes can get us between 4th and 8th with no budget and an underperforming team, then I don't buy this lack of investment argument. Until I see the whole team put in their 100% best each and every game for an entire season and if we still can't crack the Top 4 then, I'll concede that we need investment to progress. Otherwise, the minimum I want to see is players who want to play for each other and the fans, players who want to go on and win things and achieve greatness. That is what the 80s team had. The will, passion and desire. And you can't buy that. This is what our current team lacks, not investment.

Steven, How would we pay their wages? How much of the £20 Million do you think Bill will give to Moyesey? And to answer your question...

i) going to the match 66-70 in the sure and certain knowledge that, even if Everton didn't win, you'll have seen some great football and performances;
ii) 84-87; walking on air after watching a great team in every sense of the phrase, full of guts, effort and skill.

Rory, I agree. At present we are nice. Admired by all, hated by no one . Nice.

Steven it makes stark reading for me I'll never think of us as anything but champions in waiting - but I'm over 50.

I still believe someone, somewhere will come and magically turn things around....simply because we're Everton.

Of course every rational bone in my body says the realists are right, but it's like talking about a different club. The idea of success being the odd victory against a "big team" and Prem survival leaves me cold, I see acceptance as the start of oblivion.

2 sides of the same coin Steven.

" However, for me football is all about winning. So I shall ignore the calls to be ' Realistic ' and expect the highly paid manager to put 11 players onto the pitch who are prepared to give everything for the Everton cause "

Amen to that Michael.

Andy, Rory,

Do you perhaps think we can't manage a full season of excellent consistency, because we don't have the strength in depth? Perhaps the fact teams like Chelsea and ManU tend to win the League regularly is because they have the best and biggest squads.

2011 is not 1981. You can't win anything substantial today with just 11 players and some team spirit. You need 4-5 great players on top of 10-15 very good players and and possibly more. This doesn't come cheap, and it to suggest a good team talk and tactics sessions will solve all is credible in the world of Football Manager only.

Who cares if other fans admire our self-deprecating mediocrity? I'd rather EFC beat all who in their path and collect trophies by any means necessary.

I think if all the stars align it is still possible for Everton to invade the Top 4 cartel, even win the bloody thing.

Stars aligning would consist of a potpourri of indifferent results from the main powers (like the 2010 season, those same teams going deep into the Champions/Europa Leagues, early cup exits by Everton, and (errr okay, suspend disbelief) our small squad remaining relatively healthy.

The last season is all the more frustrating when you fiddle with the form tables. From Valentine's Day on we finished 2nd in the league, 3 points behind Chelsea with a game in hand on them.

If every league game was approached as do-or-die, who knows what we could achieve. I was a little miffed finding that our Home results vs Top Half teams would have seen us finish 2nd in the league... our Home results vs Bottom Half teams a derisory 17th.

Sounds a motivational problem there.

If we did actually get to the group stages of the Champions League... likely mid-table league finish that year.

ps: IMHO, the best thing to happen to Everton, and for Premier League competitiveness in general, perversely, was the maximum tax rate ballooning to 50%, vs 25% in Spain. Now all the Ronaldos and Fabregases can fuck off to Spain!

I really can't support the idea to offload Baines. He is the one member of our current squad that I see as being irreplaceable.

I can't see the swap deal mentioned ever happening though, and I wouldn't want it to either. None of the players mentioned are what we need for our long term future.

I would rather we made them cough up £25million (at the very least) and give Moyes £18million of that to buy a few hungry young players (on lower wages).

I'd still rather see the back of any other player in our squad than Bainsey though.

Success = winning nice bits of shiny.
Mediocrity = survival in the top flight.
Failure = relegation from the top flight.

We can't afford the wages of 1 of those City players never mind all 3.

Phil, one of our best run of forms in recent memory has been when all our strikers were out injured and Tim Cahill had to fill in as a makeshift forward. I didn't hear any excuses being made then. If the same tenacity and grit as then had been shown by the players last season we'd have finished much higher than 8th.

Sure, some investment would bolster the squad's ability to withstand the terrible runs of bad luck we've been having with injuries. But is that an excuse for some of our players strolling around the park, not getting into gear, not creating space off the ball, being spectators etc, as they have done sometimes last season? Is such an attitude acceptable at this club now just because these are "Championship players at best" and aren't "Premier League quality"?

I don't think our club motto means we should expect to win silverware every season. What it does mean is I don't care how much you cost or which division you previously played in, you're at Everton now and I expect no less than the best effort out of you every game. If you can't manage that, then on yer bike. Everton can ill afford to carry passengers at the moment. Nothing but the best is good enough. Even though your best might not be as good as someone else's best, you still have to give it!

@ Chris 2.
"If you get the tactics right on the pitch and play everyone in their preferred positions, you have that level playing field that everyone craves."

If we played everyone in their preferred positions all the time we would not be able to field half a team most of the year. Your simplistic statement is flawed to say the least.

When a team is operating on the smell of an oily rag in comparison to the opposition you need some players to be flexible and to be able to play in roles that may not either suit them or be preferred by them. Versatility is a quality that DM has had to look for in his squad for years.

A successful next season would be to win a trophy and qualify for the Europa League. In our circumstances, that is all we can realistically hope for. Especially with Chelsea, United, Liverpool and City strengthening their sides this summer. It will be harder than last season to even finish 7th.

Success to myself being an Evertonian since 1948 has changed so many times...

Firstly, success was staying in the old First Division; then, after the three years of relegation, it became the promotion back into the First Division where we have remained ever since. But, once we started to challenge for honours during the Moores Chairmanship period, it was silverware which started to become a reality ? although the Manchester based journalist Henry Rose called us the Mersey Millionaires for doing the very thing that the so called top clubs in the Premier League are doing now!!

So I have been privileged to have experienced the tremendous highs of Championship title wins and FA Cup success and watched the best ever Everton side of the 60s which was mainly assembled by John Carey and polished by Harry Catterick ? the players in that great team oozed with flair and I have seen them batter the Manchester and London sides. Liverpool with Shankly emerged and they became the main rivals so we never felt the need to castigate the other teams (apart from Leeds) as they were no competition.

My present idea of success is far removed from those heady heights and it appears that, until wage and transfer fee caps are instigated, we will be just pressing our noses up to the windows of the top clubs and mere survival in the Premier League will be the best we can expect!! The Premier League title has been devalued by the removal of most teams as meaningful competitors due to financial imbalance.

I have always believed in the adage that every dog has its day and I just hope that the EFC situation changes and we can aspire to greatness again.

Nice article. Makes me sad that I have never seen true glory at Everton. However, I will pass down my love for the club to my children the way that my Dad passed his love for EFC down to me.

Money does not buy skill, it buys desire. The best tactics in the world still do not motivate [modern] players, money does.

Success for me this past season would have been breaking the 70-point barrier. I wasn't sure where this would have left us... well, in the top 4 mix as it turned out.

Success for me would be only allowing three subs, abolishing the loan system, capping wages and transfer fees; then we might have a fairer playing field. The so-called big clubs have seven top subs and can pick three from seven in any game; we usually have three seniors and four kids.

The loan system only gives BK the chance to offload lots of players and reduce the wage bill; he very rarely strengthens the squad with loans...

A wage cap would reduce the foreign mercenaries who sign, again, for the so-called top clubs and a cap on transfer fees would help to create a fairer playing field. These methods would stop the devaluation of the Premier League trophy as the competition has been reduced to only two or three teams. At least when Liverpool and ourselves won the title it was without foreign players and competition was equal moneywise....

This is not sour grapes, I applauded Fergie when he was succesful with the youngsters he brought through with the Nevilles, Butt, Scholes, Giggs and Beckham but now it's just a case of 'who has the most cash' and the Premier League is filled with foreign top class players who are just chasing higher salaries. I don't blame the players... I blame the clubs for not capping wages and transfer fees and allowing our top league to become a shambles with hardly any British players getting a look-in at the top level.

As somebody has already alluded to, we have a squad of players who are capable of beating any team in the EPL on our day. We've beaten and taken points off every team that is regarded as the 'elite' in this country over the last 18 months, regardless of their financial superiority. However, too many things have combined to set us back, eg, injuries, loss of form to key players, and a painfully thin squad.

The injury to Yakubu set us back massively and Louis Saha's inability to remain injury-free for too long has also cost us dearly. We cannot afford to buy a Darren Bent and we certainly could never attract a player of the calibre of a Tevez or Van Persie. Success is attainable, I'm confident Moyes is the best manager to achieve this, given the opportunity; under the current ownership it will never happen.

Phil, the depth point is spot on. The only thing that doesn't add up for Everton with this argument though is that we seem to suffer in reverse.

Usually teams begin to suffer from lack of depth towards the end of the season, whereas we struggle at the start of the season and then pick up towards the end of the campaign.

As I said, depth is definitely a factor in team sport, but I just can't see that it is the problem ('a' problem, but not 'the' problem) at Everton.

Andy Crooks #7: I agree entirely.

My question to Andy Crooks #7 and Roman Sidey #29 would then be: Are we better than the six teams that finished above us? I would have to say no. I agree we had some terrible performances last season, but I think every team can say that. Certainly the teams above us will say they did not perform at their best in every game... but, because they have better teams, their poor performances will be less than ours. When I take off my blue tinted specs, that is just common sense to me.

There were 13 teams below us who will also argue they under-performed last season. Perhaps those 13 teams under-performed more than us? The league table doesn't lie and it basically tells the story of who under-performed the least (if you want to look at it that way!).

As things stand, we are the 7th best team in the country. I think that is probably a pretty fair reflection, which also means that there are times when we are not going to perform to a very high standard in every game. I am not for one minute saying I am happy with this or settling for this, but at the moment it is what it is.

We do need investment, and we do need an injection of new talent. My fear is that Moyes has in the past managed to find hidden gems in the likes of Cahill, Jags, Baines, etc over the years, but now it seems we don't even have the £2m to buy a Pienaar or Arteta!

If nothing happens in the transfer window and we don't strengthen in the areas we all know we need (striker and pace on the flanks), then I honestly believe that 7th, and maybe 6th at a push, is the best we can hope for again.

I also think he quite rightly realizes that a degree of stability is useful when all around are in an almost constant state of flux. I think this is largely the right strategy with players who have a long-term future at the club such as Rodwell and Fellaini, with older players in the twilight of their careers, it?s pouring development money down the drain.

A good well-written article.

However.... I've supported EFC since about 1973 when I was 7. Success is winning a cup or a title (or a Champions League place these days). It's not beyond us.

Screw corrupt Sky, Fifa, Kopite scum, big-four bollocks, the England team (especially friendlies), foreign investors, WAGS, placky scouse kopites, Alan Green and 606 phone-in knob-heads et al. We are Everton.

OK. we are skint and the underdog but.... Muhammad Ali beat Sonny Liston. Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson.

We were like this in 1983, having won bugger all for 13 years. If the entire team, squad and backroom staff get their act together starting NOW (instead of mid-October) and finishing early-mid May, we can do it.

Keep the faith.