Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Love wins over bigotry and hate
By James Finlay :: 13/07/2011
39 Comments (»Last)
The mood of late is certainly sour, and with good reason I feel. However, this isn't an article on the state of the club under "Blue" Bill or David Moyes.
First off, a quick introduction. Born and raised on Merseyside, Evertonian since I was a young lad, no real family ties to Football which still suprises people. I tell them the truth, while I loved Football I didn't really have a "team" until a mate at primary school told me about the Blues. I fell in love and it's been a grand time since. (It never fails to make me smile when I look back; even then, as the nippers we were, we could see the Kopites were obviously complete and utter gobshites.)
I was a season ticket holder for a fair few years and always tried to make away games where I could (had my heart broken at Old Trafford when we went down 3-0 in the last few minutes). Sadly I moved to the Republic of Ireland a few years ago for work (the irony isn't lost on me, the English moving to Ireland to work...) and this means I don't get come home for the games often, if at all.
Now, living in Ireland is interesting. Many of my own, naive in hindsight (I'm coming up to my mid-20s now, so I've still got lots to learn!), imaginations about Ireland were shattered fairly quickly. Being from Merseyside, the accent gets a fair bit of stick the second you set foot outside the region, as most of us have likely dealt with. The usual "hilarious" Harry Enfield comments and the like. Most of it's in good humour, though there have been a few nasty moments such as being spat at and told to "fuck off home, hun!". I suppose, with the history between Ireland and Britain, it's not to be unexpected, but still, makes one think.
Reading the news the last few days, I'd forgotten it was Marching Season in Northern Ireland. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth)
Now I know a few Ulster lads and so have been worried with all the trouble there at the moment, the usual riots and clashes with police have been happening but I'd assumed the media were overplaying it, as ever. According to one of my mates from Belfast, the media are actually underplaying it. (There's a first eh?)
Interested in the topic, I had a thought about Liverpool and Sectarianism. I was baptised Church of England but am agnostic and have been for many years. I never had any issues growing up and neither did any of the kids from what I remember. There was a Catholic school near mine but nobody ever used that as an insult to them, the usual school-to-school rival stuff included. Hell, a mate of mine was knocking off one of the lasses from there.
There are also a number of lads from Glasgow in my job and I consider a few of them friends. The comparison is truly frightening. Sectarianism is a way of life in Glasgow it seems, with the Old Firm bringing the worst of it out of people. Make no mistake, I hate the Kopites, but wouldn't ever want to do any of them serious harm (unless in self defense of course) ? in Glasgow, beatings and stabbings are common.
I've really been thinking about the topic a lot over the last week, and did some Googling (as ya do) and found an interesting article on Liverpool and the topic: http://www.thetablet.co.uk/article/2828 - I was honestly shocked reading this. Were things really that bad back then? I'm too young to know and me Mam lived over the water during that era.
Overall, I'm truly thankful to be an Evertonian. I've never seen anyone discriminated at our club bar, the occasional racist tosser in the Gwladys Street, is are usually chucked out by the staff sooner or later. I know Catholics, Protestants, blacks, whites ? all united in their love of our club. As it should be. I feel nothing but sympathy for fans of Rangers and Celtic who just want to enjoy their football and show their love for their clubs but are met with nothing but bigotry and hate.
I know some of you might say this isn't something to celebrate, but having seen things on "the other side of the fence", let me tell you folks ? it really is.
Reader Comments (39)
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2 Posted 13/07/2011 at 14:40:51
3 Posted 13/07/2011 at 14:49:42
4 Posted 13/07/2011 at 15:35:00
5 Posted 13/07/2011 at 16:08:16
Seriously?
Whatever next???
6 Posted 13/07/2011 at 16:16:44
Gavin, in such an age it's also mind-boggling to me to see grown men shouting abuse at a footballer trying to take a throw-in or a corner.
7 Posted 13/07/2011 at 16:15:49
As we got past Hornby Rd ahead on the railway bridge spanning the road there were teenage lads, hurling stones at the parade. "Catholic bastards" I heard a few around me say.
It suddenly dawned on me the reason Joe went to Rice Lane School and i went to Blessed Sacrament was he was Protestant and I was Catholic ? neither of us had thought of it before then. Shame because i didn't go to Southport on the train with them in July after that ? great day out that was.
Braindead stuff, the whole malarky.
8 Posted 13/07/2011 at 16:24:08
9 Posted 13/07/2011 at 16:54:33
Became an Atheist when I was maybe 13 or 14 and never looked back. I consider myself a humanist too, so I don't hold prejudice against any race, religion (well actually I think they're all shit), sexuality or gender.
I am prejudiced against kopites though, hehe.
Question. What is the Orange marching day? Or the "lodge" march or whatever some of you have been referring to?
10 Posted 13/07/2011 at 17:42:27
?I've never seen anyone discriminated at our club bar, the occasional racist tosser in the Gwladys Street, is usually chucked out by the staff sooner or later.?
Now if you?re approaching 25 then that makes you around the same age as me (23), which means I genuinely think you?re viewing this issue with blue-tinted spectacles. I never experienced the bad old days of widespread racism ? ?Everton are white? chants, bananas chucked at John Barnes etc ? but I cannot ignore what I have heard and seen at Everton matches in the last few seasons. Now some of it was just ignorant banter (?Hey look it?s Jermaine Beckford?s brother? ? just a black man). Other instances were more blantantly unpleasant ? racist abuse of stewards away at Fulham, Arsenal, Chelsea and Birmingham, gassing noises at Spurs, a monkey chant at Brentford etc. Now usually this is just the odd idiot and his ill-bred mates egging him on but rarely have I heard anyone tell them to shut up. Given that I?ve seen people come to blows for not sitting down and had shouting arguments with other blues over Moyes? tactics or Osman?s ability I find it embarrassing that too often we ignore bigoted comments that reflect badly on our fans.
I know that football is representative of society as a whole and so you will always have some racist or bigoted morons in the crowd, I still think we as a collective can do more to shut these people up and let them know that it?s not acceptable to behave like that. Thank god (no pun intended) we?ve never had a sectarian divide though. The bile at those Old Firm games is something to behold.
11 Posted 13/07/2011 at 17:51:46
The beauty about them is their history is far from whiter than white. Fuelling German U-Boats during the war and housing Nazi criminals afterwards, to name but a few.
Funny thing is. Emett Wolftone, one of their heroes, was English.
12 Posted 13/07/2011 at 17:15:43
It is this fear ? of losing their respective identities, of not understanding each other's heritage, that drives the sectarianism in the north these days, rather than a religious divide. In fact a large proportion of Catholics in the north would now class themselves as unionist (note the small "u") and not Nationalist.
For the record, whenever I go to Liverpool to watch my beloved blues play, I have never been subjected to any racism or bigotry from the locals, but rather treated as one of them. That's the way it should be ? a group of people with similar footballing interests supporting their team, having "the craic" along the way. Long may it continue.
13 Posted 13/07/2011 at 18:08:08
14 Posted 13/07/2011 at 18:01:50
The question I always ask myself when seeing their excessive bile and bigotry is "How many actually practice their so-called religion - be they Catholic or be they Protestant?" I bet that less than 0.1% will witness a church service each year (probably a wedding service - if that, so that they can get pissed and start singing mindless abuse at each other)!
Apart from that, ALL koppites are gobshites, and, because they don't understand, they don't matter. Each one of you is worth 20 of them!!! Good one, Labbo
PS
15 Posted 13/07/2011 at 22:59:33
16 Posted 14/07/2011 at 07:46:35
17 Posted 14/07/2011 at 08:41:30
Was in a rush typing it at work before me boss clocked me.
18 Posted 14/07/2011 at 08:37:56
50 or so kids from both sides headed up. As a first year our weapon of choice was was the pointy end of a compass, the bigger kids had worse. Some one got seriously injured, police called to break it up.
The next year we were all locked in at lunch time for 2 weeks before.
No excuses, we did it, we didn't know any better.
We do now, or some of us any way.
19 Posted 14/07/2011 at 09:27:59
I am an Irish blue and have been since I was 6 years old in 1970. My two sons are Evertonians as well - so as a Scouse friend tells me that means they think I'm allright. I abhor sectarianism and bigotry and in my years working in Dublin, Belfast, Glasgow, London and the US - unfortunately I have seen and heard lots of it. When I hear or read it, I like to challenge it - so here goes.
Wow Dave Lynch - you really don't like us (or you wife?) do you. I'm guessing your boss is the local Orange Order head honcho. Not only did you totally arse up the names of two great (Protestant) Irish men, but you peddled a total lie that U- Boats were re-fuelled in Ireland in WW2. Now, I happen to think that Irish neutrality was wrong for lots of reasons, but why are you trying to stir up trouble here pal?
If anyone is intereseted can I refer you to http://www.uboat.net/special/myths/
COYB- I will see all my mates at Goodisin on August 2oth for the QPR game.
20 Posted 14/07/2011 at 09:10:01
On one occasion I said I was a Jew but that didn't save me from the inevitable.
Without the backing of their mates these so called 'toughies' turned to water. Over the years I exact sweet revenge, and so the cycle of violence continued.
21 Posted 14/07/2011 at 11:04:46
I don't think these people are racist they just have never mixed with Black people. Liverpool has a tiny black population and you'll rarely find black people outside of Toxteth, Kensington and Wavertree so many people just do not understand the offence these insults cause. Sectarianism has ended in Liverpool fortunately but racism towards Black people is still as rife as ever.
22 Posted 14/07/2011 at 11:42:02
23 Posted 14/07/2011 at 11:39:24
I love my wife and her family.
Look at the old photos of Cork harbour during the 2nd world war.
Not trying to stoke trouble at all mate.
My brother in law majored in Irish history and still teaches it in Ireland.
I have apologised fo mixing up the names as it's a long time since my bro in law educated me on such things.
24 Posted 14/07/2011 at 12:19:01
It celebrates the crossing of the River Boyne by Prince 'Billy' William of Orange when the Catholic forces were defeated. (1689?)
The Lodge is traditionally a gathering of middle aged Protestant men who wear orange sashes in memory of Wiliam who came from Holland, as they march on July 12th (mostly carrying furled umbrellas from what I remember as a kid).
Gosh, when I put it down in print, it all sounds quite bizarre- took it for granted when aged 10. I was always allowed to watch the marches but my Catholic friend, Kieran never came out the house on that day.
Such a tragedy that hate and bigotry should infiltrate such a wonderful place as Northern Ireland and then spill over into areas such as Merseyside where there has been a traditional Protestant/Catholic divide.
As a kid it always confused me as to why Everton were known as the more Catholic team when my dad and grandad supported them!
25 Posted 14/07/2011 at 13:13:10
Similarly I have witnessed anti-English sentiment here, but as others have alluded to, it is, sadly, to be somewhat expected given the history. There is also an element of the same with some (not all!) English people's attitudes to Germans.
I think people in general are tolerant in Liverpool and in Republic of Ireland - and there is a vast difference between ROI and Northern Ireland - but you will get idiots and bigots in all walks of life and all countries.
If I piss off a Scouser in Liverpool, his natural reaction will probably be to call me an Irish so-and-so. Does that make him a bigot/xenophobe? Or does it just mean he's using my nationality as something to verbally abuse me with?
For the record too, neither Theobald Wolfe Tone or Robert Emmet were born in England.
To Dave Lynch, can you back up your U-boat claims with hard evidence?
26 Posted 14/07/2011 at 14:21:24
27 Posted 14/07/2011 at 16:55:41
You have so far managed to amalgamate two Irish historical figures into one, given them a false birthplace and made reference to refuelling of battleships in one war which took place over 25 years after you say it was originally sank.
If you know your history.... etc etc.
28 Posted 14/07/2011 at 17:22:46
29 Posted 14/07/2011 at 17:27:45
30 Posted 14/07/2011 at 18:50:06
But their is well documented evidence of German U boats sheltering off Cork.
Noel. I have apologised for the Wolftone mistake and for what it's worth agree with your post about bigotry to the hilt.
My origional post was trying to point out that Ireland also has skeletons in it's closet, not very well put i grant you and it is well factualy documented that there was a lot of Nazi sympathisers in Ireland during WW2.
Lets leave it at that before this becomes a slanging match.
31 Posted 14/07/2011 at 22:15:11
As far as WW2 is concerned, people should also remember that fresh in the memory of the Irish would've been the "black and tans" and the shelling of Dublin only 20 yrs before. I wouldn't be surprised if many would've sided with Germany after that and the history of oppression. Ironically, many thousands of Irish volunteered to join the fight against the Germans despite being neutral, and many Irish regiments had distinguished themselves in the previous war. That said, I think you would be as likely to find serious anti-Englishness in Wales or Scotland as in Ireland.
32 Posted 15/07/2011 at 00:05:50
33 Posted 15/07/2011 at 10:53:53
Many Irishmen fought with honour in the International Brigades in Spain.On the otherhand there was an Irish Regiment...O'Duffy's Blue shirts who fought with Franco.
Would have been surprising if there hadn't been Nazi sympathisers in Ireland at that time, as there were all over Europe. Sadly for the course of history there were many in the British establishment who were not exactly unhappy with Hitlers plans
The British Monarchy and many in the church in Ireland both opposed the advance of Bolshevism and atheism, as they saw it, and were prepared to see Nazism as a lesser evil.
The role of Hibbert and Osman in the selling down the river of Czechoslovakia has never been fully explained though.
34 Posted 15/07/2011 at 11:47:44
35 Posted 15/07/2011 at 12:56:36
Best line iv'e ever read on here.
Pure quality.
36 Posted 15/07/2011 at 21:19:07
37 Posted 16/07/2011 at 01:37:34
I'd love to see those documents and their factual proof.
I think you're mixing up neutrality with being pro-Nazi, Dave Lynch. The reasons for the neutrality ( which included sending fire brigades to help in Belfast when it was bombed by the Nazis) were explained above by Tom Hughes.
BTW the help given to Belfast resulted in a bombing raid on Dublin by Hitler, in which many were killed.
38 Posted 17/07/2011 at 08:20:16
The Irish Free State was a complex being which embraced the neutrality of the Southern European catholic countries (Spain, Portugal, Italy until 1941 and the Proto Fascist Vichy France regime).
However, previous to this, the Catholic Church was fiercely anti-communist and Catholic Bishops blessed the Irish Blueshirts as they sailed off to Madrid to fight the Communists in Spain in 1936 (Many of them their own countrymen such as Frank Ryan etc)
The Irish did not observe strict neutrality in WW2 - there was an air corridor over Irish airspace that British planes used for protecting convoys; they used radio direction signals to navigate - the signals were broadcast from the South of Ireland; there were continual meteorological reports sent to London - one which delayed the D-Day landings.
39 Posted 18/07/2011 at 05:04:10
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1 Posted 13/07/2011 at 14:15:41
not football related in Liverpool but very true about 50's and 60's in LIverpool.
I remember as a kid frequent exchanges around Shaw Street /Netherfield Rd on Orange marching days and St Patricks day.
One time a car was driven into the orange parade and it was a regular annual event for the "Lodge" to start banging their drums harder and provoking the Catholic area who in turn stoned them.
Very sad times for human beings but I suppose hundreds of years of hatred and murders took their toll on descendants mentality.