Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Enough is enough!!!!
By Paul Niklas :: 15/08/2011
81 Comments (»Last)
I am posting this article out of shear frustration, indeed anger at this site and some of my fellow Everton supporters,.
I have made little contribution to the site of late, preferring to watch with Interest what is going on at Everton and also read as usual the total negativity which I never thought could get any worse on ToffeeWeb, but it has.
My point, the start of the match summary tonight could not resist in using the word 'ominous' for the the ommision of Jags and Baines from the team, to then link that to interest from Arsenal for Jags and the RS for Baines in my opinion is disrespectful to the players the club and to fans alike.
Could we not for once try and be positive about things? There are lots of reasons why both would not be playing, how about the very fact that they are complete shoe-ins as far as first team selection is concerned and those that also might be, are coming back from injury (Fellaini, Arteta) and need the match practise, the rest are all fighting for a place.
I am sick of the negativity of Everton supporters: So what, we have no money... So what ? we have bought no one yet... So what, Moyes has been very quiet... I don't really care, to me I will be at the first game on Saturday as I have been for many many years and I will be supporting my beloved club regardless of all the rest of the bollocks that surrounds our club at the moment.
We maybe able to voice our opinion on this wonderful site and through various other mediums; however, there is nothing any of us can do about the current financial position of the club... a bit like the current owners' predicament to be honest, which believe you me is not a position any of them want nor currently relish. It will not be a pleasant job at the moment running Everton Football Club, but give them some credit, they are not making the situation financially any worse. Albeit I do believe they can do certain things to make it better, they are also not running away from the problem, which happens a lot in business when the going gets tough.
Yes, things are not great, and could be a whole lot better if a fairy godmother grants a few wishes, but it ain't going to happen.
For what its worth, I am of the opinion we have a good team and I do not believe for one second we will not add to this squad at some point, be it before the end of this transfer window or in January. I also believe this team is good enough to achieve top six and maybe beyond and at 12/1 to get into the top four then the bookies have more faith than the supporters.
I expect to see all our key players start on Saturday and I expect us to win, but I expect that no matter who we play, because I am I suppose a 'glass half-full' individual when it comes to Everton, were most currently are definitely the opposite.
Anybody care to join the bandwagon of positivity for a few weeks or at least to the end of the month? I won't hold my breath.
I am by the way not an apologist for Bill Kenwright, David Moyes or anyone else for that matter, I just know when it's time to support ? and that time is now!!!
Reader Comments (81)
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Jon Bourne
2 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:34:06
2 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:34:06
I thought there was more chance of seeing a £20m signing walking through our doors than a positive post. Agree with you pretty much word for word. Without serious injuries agree we can realistically be top 6 but to go higher we need cash and we don't have it. Just think we could have a win whilst still in summer time. COYB.
Andy Crooks
3 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:31:55
3 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:31:55
Paul, two excellent poimts re, Jags and Baines. I hope and believe you are right, As to the rest of your article, well, I think that Bill Kenwright would think it was wonderful.
Luke Brookfield
4 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:48:55
4 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:48:55
Apparently a person can't be positive without being branded a devout Kenwright supporter!? Good post Paul.
Elaine Riding
5 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:57:11
5 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:57:11
Totally agree Paul.
What if Jags and Baines had played and got injured ??
Its a positive that a few squad players had a game..
QPR is a big game..
What if Jags and Baines had played and got injured ??
Its a positive that a few squad players had a game..
QPR is a big game..
Andy Crooks
6 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:52:45
6 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:52:45
Luke., "so what we have no money" I didn't call Paul a devout Kenwright supporter but his post is ,frankly, the sort of stuff that provides succour to this regime.
James Stewart
7 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:00:58
7 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:00:58
Without serious injuries blah blah blah......
We have already had one for fucks sake Coleman is out for months and he was the only one offering any width.
There will be more and we can't cope
We have already had one for fucks sake Coleman is out for months and he was the only one offering any width.
There will be more and we can't cope
Phil Rodgers
8 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:03:17
8 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:03:17
I respect your opinion and admire your optimism. But I do not feel that way at all. We are slowly but quite surely drifting behind our rivals due to the inadequacy of the current regime. I feel the team has become stale and lacks players with creativity and after some of the results against teams of QPR's ilk in recent seasons particularly at home, I am not convinced at all that we will win. Guess I am part of the glass half empty brigade.
Trevor Mackie
9 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:52:50
9 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:52:50
Paul Believe it or not I restrict my true negative feelings on here, I've gone past the point in my life where I take things on faith alone - it's not necessarily an age thing more experience and rationalisation of facts.
I understand it breaks peoples hearts to see demolition of hope written on these and other pages the things that grab us from a young age are often held by the heart not the head.
My excuse is whenever I speak to anyone to do with the machination of football - players, managers, officials, press - they all talk of it as a business, a job, a product yet they're shocked when we as fans react as "customers" not "believers" or "disciples" of years gone by.
The powers that control the game have moved on with their terminology and practice away from the local fan base reaching out to "markets" via television. The unwritten contract of communal faith has been broken - look at us with Kirkby - so calls for people to unlearn what they know is futile.
We know incompetence has reigned at Goodison - to support it is a leap of faith the informed struggle with.
I understand it breaks peoples hearts to see demolition of hope written on these and other pages the things that grab us from a young age are often held by the heart not the head.
My excuse is whenever I speak to anyone to do with the machination of football - players, managers, officials, press - they all talk of it as a business, a job, a product yet they're shocked when we as fans react as "customers" not "believers" or "disciples" of years gone by.
The powers that control the game have moved on with their terminology and practice away from the local fan base reaching out to "markets" via television. The unwritten contract of communal faith has been broken - look at us with Kirkby - so calls for people to unlearn what they know is futile.
We know incompetence has reigned at Goodison - to support it is a leap of faith the informed struggle with.
Michael Kenrick
10 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:16:21
10 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:16:21
I understand there are people in the world who must be surrounded by positive vibes, who cannot countenance the prospect of negative things happening, and certainly don't want any conspiracy theory type conjecture disturbing their equilibrium.
On the other side are people who believe in being prepared for the worst, who can interpret any event or signal as a portent of doom, and who worry unconsolably that we are on a downward path. To be forewarned is forearmed and all that stuff.
I think it's possible to embrace both worlds. To look forward with hope and trepidation to the new season; to hope that we retain our best players, while simultaneously fearing they will be spirited away. That's probably what being balanced is actually about. Freaking out over one extreme or the other is simply paranoia.
To the positive peeps, everything that isn't positive is negative. The world is simply not that black and white, and there is no mandate for your world view to be transferred to the rest of us. Yet your are told by the positivism gurus to expunge all 'negativity' from your little worlds, not to associate with people who have 'negative' thoughts...
And that's the problem. It's a bit like religious zealotry. Like you're saying "I'm positive and that's good: you're not positive and that's bad: you need to be like me."
Well, you now what. I can't stand religious zealots, evangelists, any one who has this desire to "convert" people from their innate condition, usually with a pompous self-righteousness. Live and let live. Stop trying to change people!
Specifically: "I do not believe for one second we will not add to this squad at some point, be it before the end of this transfer window or in January." Ouch... I'd hate to be you if we don't in fact sign anybody... which is entirely possible (unless we ? heaven forbid ? SELL one of our better players...)
Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. Not in capitals... I did it deliberately to upset you, and I didn't need to do that. On the other hand, even you surely have to admit, it is a possibility, for the very reasons you outline.
And, no matter how sure you are in your beliefs, I know as an absolute certainty that your convictions in this matter make no difference whatsoever to the ultimate outcome, which is primarily in the control of others.
God, I'm on a roll now... I could go on all night! But I won't.
On the other side are people who believe in being prepared for the worst, who can interpret any event or signal as a portent of doom, and who worry unconsolably that we are on a downward path. To be forewarned is forearmed and all that stuff.
I think it's possible to embrace both worlds. To look forward with hope and trepidation to the new season; to hope that we retain our best players, while simultaneously fearing they will be spirited away. That's probably what being balanced is actually about. Freaking out over one extreme or the other is simply paranoia.
To the positive peeps, everything that isn't positive is negative. The world is simply not that black and white, and there is no mandate for your world view to be transferred to the rest of us. Yet your are told by the positivism gurus to expunge all 'negativity' from your little worlds, not to associate with people who have 'negative' thoughts...
And that's the problem. It's a bit like religious zealotry. Like you're saying "I'm positive and that's good: you're not positive and that's bad: you need to be like me."
Well, you now what. I can't stand religious zealots, evangelists, any one who has this desire to "convert" people from their innate condition, usually with a pompous self-righteousness. Live and let live. Stop trying to change people!
Specifically: "I do not believe for one second we will not add to this squad at some point, be it before the end of this transfer window or in January." Ouch... I'd hate to be you if we don't in fact sign anybody... which is entirely possible (unless we ? heaven forbid ? SELL one of our better players...)
Sorry, I shouldn't have said that. Not in capitals... I did it deliberately to upset you, and I didn't need to do that. On the other hand, even you surely have to admit, it is a possibility, for the very reasons you outline.
And, no matter how sure you are in your beliefs, I know as an absolute certainty that your convictions in this matter make no difference whatsoever to the ultimate outcome, which is primarily in the control of others.
God, I'm on a roll now... I could go on all night! But I won't.
Dennis Stevens
11 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:27:44
11 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:27:44
"So what, we have no money... It will not be a pleasant job at the moment running Everton Football Club, but give them some credit, they are not making the situation financially any worse."
When does optimism become delusion, Paul?
Steve Smith
12 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:50:43
12 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:50:43
It's interesting that anyone who tries to be positive on the site is also at pains to point out that they are not apologists, which more or less tells you everything you need to know about the general tone of most contributors. I read quite a few articles, mailbags and the comments, and I do get the impression that some posters are willing us to fail just so they can say, I told you so.
Simon Harris
13 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:43:56
13 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:43:56
After just reading your diatribe on the Blue Union thread, forgive me for not joining in your blind optimism.
If you want to sit idly by grinning like a Cheshire cat then good on yer. I will be supporting the team on Saturday with my usual new season optimism but I'll also be supporting the Blue Union in getting answers and putting pressure on this incompetent board.
"It will not be a pleasant job at the moment running Everton Football Club, but give them some credit, they are not making the situation financially any worse."
Err ? 2!!! failed ground moves, Park End wall knocked down... ? Mork calling Mindy, come in Mindy.
If you want to sit idly by grinning like a Cheshire cat then good on yer. I will be supporting the team on Saturday with my usual new season optimism but I'll also be supporting the Blue Union in getting answers and putting pressure on this incompetent board.
"It will not be a pleasant job at the moment running Everton Football Club, but give them some credit, they are not making the situation financially any worse."
Err ? 2!!! failed ground moves, Park End wall knocked down... ? Mork calling Mindy, come in Mindy.
Colin Wainwright
14 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:55:33
14 Posted 16/08/2011 at 00:55:33
If its 'not a pleasant job at the moment running Everton Football Club', sell it to someone who, does actually want to do it and has the cash to stand a round at the fuckin bar.
As for not making the situation financially worse. Christ on a bike!
As for not making the situation financially worse. Christ on a bike!
Michael Kenrick
15 Posted 16/08/2011 at 01:13:54
15 Posted 16/08/2011 at 01:13:54
It's utterly incredible how negative some of you positivists can be...
Steve Smith: "I read quite a few articles, mailbags and the comments, and I do get the impression that some posters are willing us to fail just so they can say, I told you so."
What a piece of negative shithouse bile. I challenge you to come up with one such example that indicates anyone is willing us to fail ? let alone so they can say "I told you so."
How dare you have the affrontory to challenge Evertonians in such a despicable manner! That is so pathetically negative and baseless, it makes my blood boil!
Steve Smith: "I read quite a few articles, mailbags and the comments, and I do get the impression that some posters are willing us to fail just so they can say, I told you so."
What a piece of negative shithouse bile. I challenge you to come up with one such example that indicates anyone is willing us to fail ? let alone so they can say "I told you so."
How dare you have the affrontory to challenge Evertonians in such a despicable manner! That is so pathetically negative and baseless, it makes my blood boil!
Roman Sidey
16 Posted 16/08/2011 at 02:08:00
16 Posted 16/08/2011 at 02:08:00
Kenrick, you are a classic! Loving it!
Nick, fair chat. Being positive is anyone's choice, and you outline why you're being positive. I too believe our squad has potential to be as good as it once promised, but that it depends on the manager selecting the right side and blah blah blah...
The only thing that stuck out as outrageous in your article is this:
"give them some credit, they are not making the situation financially any worse."
Actually they are. If you run a business at a loss, and revenue doesn't improve (in our case it will probably drop due to season tickets sales dropping), then the situation does get worse. They could sell a player or two to lessen the debt, but they are fast becoming our only assets.
I was somewhat positive that Everton could turn things around until Elstone did his little siminar. That, for me, was the prohecy of armageddon.
Nick, fair chat. Being positive is anyone's choice, and you outline why you're being positive. I too believe our squad has potential to be as good as it once promised, but that it depends on the manager selecting the right side and blah blah blah...
The only thing that stuck out as outrageous in your article is this:
"give them some credit, they are not making the situation financially any worse."
Actually they are. If you run a business at a loss, and revenue doesn't improve (in our case it will probably drop due to season tickets sales dropping), then the situation does get worse. They could sell a player or two to lessen the debt, but they are fast becoming our only assets.
I was somewhat positive that Everton could turn things around until Elstone did his little siminar. That, for me, was the prohecy of armageddon.
Eric Myles
17 Posted 16/08/2011 at 02:39:49
17 Posted 16/08/2011 at 02:39:49
I feel like we're all passengers on the Titanic all pointing and shouting Iceberg!!!Iceberg!! with Kenwright at the helm and Doddy as his navigator.
Steve Sweeney
18 Posted 16/08/2011 at 03:09:06
18 Posted 16/08/2011 at 03:09:06
The sad thing Eric, is that The Iceberg is about to hit. Nice analogy.
Agree with Michael, as a longtime contributor against Billy Liar, I never want Everton to Lose. Unfortunately under the current regime I despair for our great club and its future.
John Maxwell
19 Posted 16/08/2011 at 03:46:52
19 Posted 16/08/2011 at 03:46:52
Michael @ 15.
A well known Toffeeweber about the same time last season wanting us to get beat 5-0 by Arsenal??
A well known Toffeeweber about the same time last season wanting us to get beat 5-0 by Arsenal??
Andrew Earlam
20 Posted 16/08/2011 at 04:05:13
20 Posted 16/08/2011 at 04:05:13
I happen to think that big signings are iminent and AGMs are on their way back along with an answer to our age old stadium problems. I believe the blip at the Park End is just that and have every confidence in our board and their plan.
There ? is that better?
There ? is that better?
Mark Stone
21 Posted 16/08/2011 at 07:33:04
21 Posted 16/08/2011 at 07:33:04
"sell it to someone who, does actually want to do it and has the cash"
Ah that queue of wealthy potential buyers fighting each other to be the first to beat down Kenwright's doors, eh Colin!
Ah that queue of wealthy potential buyers fighting each other to be the first to beat down Kenwright's doors, eh Colin!
Tom Winek
22 Posted 16/08/2011 at 07:48:46
22 Posted 16/08/2011 at 07:48:46
80 for Everton!
Eugene Ruane
23 Posted 16/08/2011 at 08:36:33
23 Posted 16/08/2011 at 08:36:33
As a (possibly born) pessimist I will accept that pessimism is kind of an ?easy? option.
If you?re right, you?re right.
If you?re wrong, hey it?s good news.
I read recently (BBC) about a Belfast Telegraph columnist, Barry White who was such a pessimist he was nicknamed Barry Black.
His (?legally? clever) answer for when things (Ie: the relationship between Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness) were going well, was the easy ?give it six months? (accompanied by a knowing tap of the nose).
This response kind of gets (us) pessimists out of almost any situation.
There is also (also to get the pessimist of trouble), the semantic pessimist response of ?I?m more of a sceptic than a pessimist?.
Pick the bones out of that (if you?ve got an hour).
My problem with many TW ?optimists? is not actually their ?optimism?, it?s that (for the most part) I don?t actually believe them.
I think they believe optimism is a trait (like ?friendly? or ?charitable?).
A trait that to be admired and so that is the character they will adopt and regularly refer to (not ALL but some).
But I don?t believe most of them.
Because (like in this post) they give themselves away.
Ask yourself, does the optimist title a post..
?Enough is enough?, or ?Enough is enough!!!!???
Does an optimist (like Paul) allow himself to become ?frustrated? and ?angry??
Surely the whole point of being an ?optimist? is that you take negatives and make them positives.
Something Paul and many of the ranting angry TW optimists fail miserably to do.
The fact is I do (where Everton is concerned) NOT consider myself simply a pessimist but a realist.
Why a realist?
Because I look at the ACTUAL evidence (NB: NOT ?what if??) and make a decision based on it.
And what IS this ?evidence?.
Regarding transfers, we can?t compete with?well, almost every other team.
Our manager (nb: who I have said many times, I like as a feller) has little imagination and is also hampered by not having the funds to compete.
Many of our players are ordinary and many are starting to look their age.
We have no real pace.
Other sides at our ?level? HAVE strengthened their sides.
Our board, apart from the fact they lie like they breathe, have proven themselves incompetent, self-serving and generally useless.
THAT is the evidence and to look at this and as a result, suggest optimism is the appropriate response, is like hitting your bollocks with a hammer and saying ?That felt nice? (nb: If you?re Max Moseley, then obviously this IS the right response!)
If you?re right, you?re right.
If you?re wrong, hey it?s good news.
I read recently (BBC) about a Belfast Telegraph columnist, Barry White who was such a pessimist he was nicknamed Barry Black.
His (?legally? clever) answer for when things (Ie: the relationship between Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness) were going well, was the easy ?give it six months? (accompanied by a knowing tap of the nose).
This response kind of gets (us) pessimists out of almost any situation.
There is also (also to get the pessimist of trouble), the semantic pessimist response of ?I?m more of a sceptic than a pessimist?.
Pick the bones out of that (if you?ve got an hour).
My problem with many TW ?optimists? is not actually their ?optimism?, it?s that (for the most part) I don?t actually believe them.
I think they believe optimism is a trait (like ?friendly? or ?charitable?).
A trait that to be admired and so that is the character they will adopt and regularly refer to (not ALL but some).
But I don?t believe most of them.
Because (like in this post) they give themselves away.
Ask yourself, does the optimist title a post..
?Enough is enough?, or ?Enough is enough!!!!???
Does an optimist (like Paul) allow himself to become ?frustrated? and ?angry??
Surely the whole point of being an ?optimist? is that you take negatives and make them positives.
Something Paul and many of the ranting angry TW optimists fail miserably to do.
The fact is I do (where Everton is concerned) NOT consider myself simply a pessimist but a realist.
Why a realist?
Because I look at the ACTUAL evidence (NB: NOT ?what if??) and make a decision based on it.
And what IS this ?evidence?.
Regarding transfers, we can?t compete with?well, almost every other team.
Our manager (nb: who I have said many times, I like as a feller) has little imagination and is also hampered by not having the funds to compete.
Many of our players are ordinary and many are starting to look their age.
We have no real pace.
Other sides at our ?level? HAVE strengthened their sides.
Our board, apart from the fact they lie like they breathe, have proven themselves incompetent, self-serving and generally useless.
THAT is the evidence and to look at this and as a result, suggest optimism is the appropriate response, is like hitting your bollocks with a hammer and saying ?That felt nice? (nb: If you?re Max Moseley, then obviously this IS the right response!)
Phil Bellis
24 Posted 16/08/2011 at 09:38:32
24 Posted 16/08/2011 at 09:38:32
Some may say...look at the facts and the current situation being the cumulation of 20-odd years of collective failure, incompetence and dereliction of duty by successive Everton Boards.
Or even, that only Moyes, the players and a large slice of luck will save the Board's expansive arses once again... But I'm with you, you see I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows.
Pollyanna
Eugene Ruane
25 Posted 16/08/2011 at 10:04:28
25 Posted 16/08/2011 at 10:04:28
Phil (24) I prefer the Norman Stanley Fletcher version.
NSF Sings: "I believe for every drop of rain that falls.....someone gets wet"
NSF Sings: "I believe for every drop of rain that falls.....someone gets wet"
Chris Matheson
26 Posted 16/08/2011 at 09:52:47
26 Posted 16/08/2011 at 09:52:47
The reason that pro-Board posters on here are dubbed aplogists may have something to do with a disappointing aggression on the part of some contributors.
More likely, however, it is because the evidence against the Board is stacked so high, with little solid eveidence in their favour, that any support begins to look irrational. It appears to be based in blind faith rather than logic. In these circumstances, with no apparent firm basis for their arguments, I suspect they are dubbed as apologists.
There are some great contributors to this site. Some tedious or pompous, but some really insightful comments too. I support Moyes but I want Kenwright out. I know there are many on here who want Moyes out too, because of his dour, unimaginative manner of play (yes he drives me potty sometimes also). I would love to see him given a fair crack with a decent budget. Does that make me an optimist or a pessimist, a supporter or an apologist?
The bottom line is, I am scared. I am terrified that by Board inertia and inability ? and every standard at the club is set from the top ? this club is slowly sinking, and heading towards the wrong end of the table. Pessimistic... yes, but we now have two players definitely out already, and a tiny squad with no hope of addition. So, on top of all the debts and the recognised financial problems, I can see no reason to be anything other than worried.
More likely, however, it is because the evidence against the Board is stacked so high, with little solid eveidence in their favour, that any support begins to look irrational. It appears to be based in blind faith rather than logic. In these circumstances, with no apparent firm basis for their arguments, I suspect they are dubbed as apologists.
There are some great contributors to this site. Some tedious or pompous, but some really insightful comments too. I support Moyes but I want Kenwright out. I know there are many on here who want Moyes out too, because of his dour, unimaginative manner of play (yes he drives me potty sometimes also). I would love to see him given a fair crack with a decent budget. Does that make me an optimist or a pessimist, a supporter or an apologist?
The bottom line is, I am scared. I am terrified that by Board inertia and inability ? and every standard at the club is set from the top ? this club is slowly sinking, and heading towards the wrong end of the table. Pessimistic... yes, but we now have two players definitely out already, and a tiny squad with no hope of addition. So, on top of all the debts and the recognised financial problems, I can see no reason to be anything other than worried.
Dave Lynch
27 Posted 16/08/2011 at 10:56:13
27 Posted 16/08/2011 at 10:56:13
Facts are facts. There are no grey areas within the truth and as Eugene pointed out, the truth of it is. We're potless, floating on a debt we can't afford to pay back.
I know some of you will jump on me stating other clubs financial problems but, to be honest, I couldn't give a rat's arse about other clubs, I only care for us.
The glass half-full/half-empty scenario holds no water at all when dealing with truths.
Kjetil Moen
28 Posted 16/08/2011 at 11:17:14
28 Posted 16/08/2011 at 11:17:14
Agree with you Paul Niklas. Don't want to be too naive, but this squad is just as strong as the side which finished well last year. So without injuries, and with luck, we could do well. QPR is a massive game, truly.
Eugene Ruane
29 Posted 16/08/2011 at 11:14:28
29 Posted 16/08/2011 at 11:14:28
Chris, you say..
"So on top of all the debts and the recognised financial problems, I can see no reason to be anything other than worried".
This to me seems a rational, natural and realistic response.
It doesn't imo make you 'a pessimist'.
"So on top of all the debts and the recognised financial problems, I can see no reason to be anything other than worried".
This to me seems a rational, natural and realistic response.
It doesn't imo make you 'a pessimist'.
Eugene Ruane
30 Posted 16/08/2011 at 11:20:35
30 Posted 16/08/2011 at 11:20:35
Kjetil (28) you say..
"So without injuries, and with luck, we could do well".
Well we haven't played a game yet and already have two players out.
As for 'with luck we could do well', well...yes I suppose so, but with 'luck'...ANYTHING is possible.
Sorry but this just seems an exercise in wishful-thinking.
Dismissing the facts and replacing them with 'we could' to get the result you desire.
Saying 'despite all the evidence, I WILL embrace the highly improbable'.
A very child-like 'logic' in my view, but if it genuinely works for you, I don't have a problem.
My problem comes when I read I'M somehow in the wrong, for viewing a whole load of negative stuff..negatively.
"So without injuries, and with luck, we could do well".
Well we haven't played a game yet and already have two players out.
As for 'with luck we could do well', well...yes I suppose so, but with 'luck'...ANYTHING is possible.
Sorry but this just seems an exercise in wishful-thinking.
Dismissing the facts and replacing them with 'we could' to get the result you desire.
Saying 'despite all the evidence, I WILL embrace the highly improbable'.
A very child-like 'logic' in my view, but if it genuinely works for you, I don't have a problem.
My problem comes when I read I'M somehow in the wrong, for viewing a whole load of negative stuff..negatively.
David Thomas
31 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:00:31
31 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:00:31
Michael 15,
Do you mean like when Tony Marsh stated "i hope we get twatted 5-0 against Arsenal."
Is that the type of statement you were looking for?
I presume that sort of comment makes your blood boil as well?
Do you mean like when Tony Marsh stated "i hope we get twatted 5-0 against Arsenal."
Is that the type of statement you were looking for?
I presume that sort of comment makes your blood boil as well?
Michael Kelly
32 Posted 16/08/2011 at 11:53:48
32 Posted 16/08/2011 at 11:53:48
Evertonians make pessimism look cool.
Daniel A Johnson
33 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:01:49
33 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:01:49
I want Kenwright out and I want Moyes to be replaced by another manager.
That doesn't mean I want Everton to fail.
That doesn't mean I want Everton to fail.
Dave Wilson
34 Posted 16/08/2011 at 11:13:37
34 Posted 16/08/2011 at 11:13:37
My problem with pessimists is that so many of them don't even believe themselves, they do not have the courage of their convictions.
It's easy to come on web sites or sit in the ale house and whine "were doomed" ... "we`re going down" ? How many of them actually believe this? If they think we are going down, why not wizz round to the betting shop and lump on the 33/1 on offer?
I have no problem with anyone who wants to see their glass is half empty, it's the people who feel the need to drag everyone else down.
Why do they try to shout down anyone who wants to be to be positive calling them childish names like "Apologist", "Sycophants", "easily pleased" "Happy clappers" ?
Why is it only the pessimists feel the need to resort to name calling?
It's easy to come on web sites or sit in the ale house and whine "were doomed" ... "we`re going down" ? How many of them actually believe this? If they think we are going down, why not wizz round to the betting shop and lump on the 33/1 on offer?
I have no problem with anyone who wants to see their glass is half empty, it's the people who feel the need to drag everyone else down.
Why do they try to shout down anyone who wants to be to be positive calling them childish names like "Apologist", "Sycophants", "easily pleased" "Happy clappers" ?
Why is it only the pessimists feel the need to resort to name calling?
Denis Richardson
35 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:11:49
35 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:11:49
Mmm, I quote;
'there is nothing any of us can do about the current financial position of the club... a bit like the current owners' predicament to be honest, which believe you me is not a position any of them want nor currently relish.'
Erm, I do believe they are the ones who got us here so why can we not air our voice of discontent? They made the bed so should not moan about lying in it.
'It will not be a pleasant job at the moment running Everton Football Club, but give them some credit, they are not making the situation financially any worse.'
Sorry but this line had me in stitches. So we should feel sorry for them becasue their job is hard at the moment, even though they are at fault for this? (Dont give me any Premier Leagueis full of cash, sugar daddies etc ? they have made numerous mistakes, which have had detrimental financial consequences over the years!)
'Albeit I do believe they can do certain things to make it better, they are also not running away from the problem, which happens a lot in business when the going gets tough.'
Maybe that's just the problem ? they should move over and let people with better commercial know how do they job. After over a decade I feel justified in asking for a change. Just avoiding relegation may have been the aim 10 years ago!
Before anyone starts with the 'we've finished in the top half consistently'. Please let me know your thoughts on this achievement looking into the NEAR future when the likes of Neville, Distin, Cahill, Saha, Osman, Hibbert etc leave/retire. That's a big chunk of the 1st team squad ? not to mention other players who are about to leave or simply not good enough!
You say we are skint and should accept it; I will probably find it easier to accept if the club makes us aware of some sort of future plan to secure our cherished position in the Premier League over the next 3-5 years. There is no communication and there is no way we have 7-8 players in our reserve/youth team that will be able/ready to make the step up in the next year or two. As you mention, we don't have a pot to piss in (could not even use the Pienaar, Vaughan, loan saving money to fund new players!) so how to we fill this future gap?
You may call the above negative, I choose to call it worryingly realistic.
One more thing; if you choose your right to call people like me negative doom mongers, then I can choose my right to call opinions like yours sticking your head in the sand.
We will likely/hopefully beat QPR at home on Sat (they are not exactly one of the top teams and just got tanked at home by Bolton!) but I am awfully glad our match away at Spurs was postponed ? an opening season win will boost confidence, which it seems is the only thing we can hope for short term.
COYB!
'there is nothing any of us can do about the current financial position of the club... a bit like the current owners' predicament to be honest, which believe you me is not a position any of them want nor currently relish.'
Erm, I do believe they are the ones who got us here so why can we not air our voice of discontent? They made the bed so should not moan about lying in it.
'It will not be a pleasant job at the moment running Everton Football Club, but give them some credit, they are not making the situation financially any worse.'
Sorry but this line had me in stitches. So we should feel sorry for them becasue their job is hard at the moment, even though they are at fault for this? (Dont give me any Premier Leagueis full of cash, sugar daddies etc ? they have made numerous mistakes, which have had detrimental financial consequences over the years!)
'Albeit I do believe they can do certain things to make it better, they are also not running away from the problem, which happens a lot in business when the going gets tough.'
Maybe that's just the problem ? they should move over and let people with better commercial know how do they job. After over a decade I feel justified in asking for a change. Just avoiding relegation may have been the aim 10 years ago!
Before anyone starts with the 'we've finished in the top half consistently'. Please let me know your thoughts on this achievement looking into the NEAR future when the likes of Neville, Distin, Cahill, Saha, Osman, Hibbert etc leave/retire. That's a big chunk of the 1st team squad ? not to mention other players who are about to leave or simply not good enough!
You say we are skint and should accept it; I will probably find it easier to accept if the club makes us aware of some sort of future plan to secure our cherished position in the Premier League over the next 3-5 years. There is no communication and there is no way we have 7-8 players in our reserve/youth team that will be able/ready to make the step up in the next year or two. As you mention, we don't have a pot to piss in (could not even use the Pienaar, Vaughan, loan saving money to fund new players!) so how to we fill this future gap?
You may call the above negative, I choose to call it worryingly realistic.
One more thing; if you choose your right to call people like me negative doom mongers, then I can choose my right to call opinions like yours sticking your head in the sand.
We will likely/hopefully beat QPR at home on Sat (they are not exactly one of the top teams and just got tanked at home by Bolton!) but I am awfully glad our match away at Spurs was postponed ? an opening season win will boost confidence, which it seems is the only thing we can hope for short term.
COYB!
Michael Kelly
38 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:42:00
38 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:42:00
Well said, Dennis at 34, just because a lot of people on TW put across their opinions in a forthright way doesn't mean they love the club any less. In my own circumstances, I have held the view for years that this BK/DM alliance isn't what it's made up to be by a lot of Blues and the media, and it was reassuring when I discovered TW a few years back that so many others shared it too. This website is a way of life for me now and is an excellent read no matter what the type of opinion.
Phil Martin
39 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:46:57
39 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:46:57
Can people stop this "IF we avoid injuries/bad luck/bad start..." type arguments?
It's like saying 'if I bought 13,999,999 lottery tickets I've got a could chance of winning'.
The answer is 'Yes, but you never will - and it imagine such a situation is pointless.'
Every club in the world can do well IF they avoid major injuries/get a bit of luck/ be more consistent/etc. The point is 99% of cases you get injuries/bad luck during the course of a season. Don't ever pretend otherwise.
The crux is that those who spend and have bigger squads with more quality. Fair better over the course of the season. Those who sell off players and don't bring any in are substantially more likely to struggle with those demands. We are firmly in the latter.
It's like saying 'if I bought 13,999,999 lottery tickets I've got a could chance of winning'.
The answer is 'Yes, but you never will - and it imagine such a situation is pointless.'
Every club in the world can do well IF they avoid major injuries/get a bit of luck/ be more consistent/etc. The point is 99% of cases you get injuries/bad luck during the course of a season. Don't ever pretend otherwise.
The crux is that those who spend and have bigger squads with more quality. Fair better over the course of the season. Those who sell off players and don't bring any in are substantially more likely to struggle with those demands. We are firmly in the latter.
Paul Niklas
40 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:42:53
40 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:42:53
Interesting responses, and more interesting is that be it an optimist or a pessimist everyone seems to want to apologise for it.
I am actually a realist my point is that at time negativity achieves nothing and yes over optimism can hide the reality of the situtaion, however their is a point in time when pragmatism, general support can help particularly now.
The continuing negativity leads to those being criticised( because they are damned if they do anything and damned if they dont) to put up the shutters and say nothing as is the current situation, leading to AGMs fo example being stopped as it was always the negatives wanting centre stage.
The reality is we all know the issues, concerns, mistakes of the past each and everyone of us, the difference is how you manifest it in your own mind and then articulate in a way that is constructive or at least supportive when it is needed most and that time is now for me.
I am actually a realist my point is that at time negativity achieves nothing and yes over optimism can hide the reality of the situtaion, however their is a point in time when pragmatism, general support can help particularly now.
The continuing negativity leads to those being criticised( because they are damned if they do anything and damned if they dont) to put up the shutters and say nothing as is the current situation, leading to AGMs fo example being stopped as it was always the negatives wanting centre stage.
The reality is we all know the issues, concerns, mistakes of the past each and everyone of us, the difference is how you manifest it in your own mind and then articulate in a way that is constructive or at least supportive when it is needed most and that time is now for me.
Eugene Ruane
41 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:59:29
41 Posted 16/08/2011 at 12:59:29
Dave Wilson (33) - Could you point out one (JUST ONE) post from anyone, any thread that says 'We're going down'.
(just to be clear, not 'if things continue like this we could find ourselves in trouble', 'WE'RE GOING DOWN')
I'm not saying you're wrong, just like to see one person who posted that, especially as you suggest (ie: "how many of 'THEM' actually believe this?") quite a few have.
(just to be clear, not 'if things continue like this we could find ourselves in trouble', 'WE'RE GOING DOWN')
I'm not saying you're wrong, just like to see one person who posted that, especially as you suggest (ie: "how many of 'THEM' actually believe this?") quite a few have.
Kevin Tully
42 Posted 16/08/2011 at 13:08:33
42 Posted 16/08/2011 at 13:08:33
I don't believe anyone on here can seriously believe the board of EFC are competent.
We have reached tipping point this season. The fact we can't raise funds anymore reeks of mis-management and short termism.
The claim that all our income goes to the players may well be true, but convinces me that there has never been any long-term planning. Imagine going to a bank with that explanation.
I will be there on Saturday, I will support the team as usual, but our Board of Directors are a bunch of incompetent twats, as one Spanish waiter once said, "FACT!"
We have reached tipping point this season. The fact we can't raise funds anymore reeks of mis-management and short termism.
The claim that all our income goes to the players may well be true, but convinces me that there has never been any long-term planning. Imagine going to a bank with that explanation.
I will be there on Saturday, I will support the team as usual, but our Board of Directors are a bunch of incompetent twats, as one Spanish waiter once said, "FACT!"
Ian Simpson
43 Posted 16/08/2011 at 13:24:47
43 Posted 16/08/2011 at 13:24:47
Can we all please lighten up -- let's see where we are after a few games and the transfer window closes.
I want to get behind the team, and hopefully see some progress. There is too much negativity, altough I do understand the need for progress, and the need for major investment. Do any of the moaners have any idea where we will get substantial investment to enable us to compete?
Unfortunately, I dont see any rich Arabs/ Indians/America-in sight, never mind Merseysiders!!!!
Phil Bellis
44 Posted 16/08/2011 at 13:42:18
44 Posted 16/08/2011 at 13:42:18
Ian
Depends which of Bill's definitions you mean...
Investment;
Give us your money
Substantial investment:
Give us your money and and have no say in running the club?
Unconditional investment:
Sell off your best players
Depends which of Bill's definitions you mean...
Investment;
Give us your money
Substantial investment:
Give us your money and and have no say in running the club?
Unconditional investment:
Sell off your best players
Brian Waring
45 Posted 16/08/2011 at 14:27:03
45 Posted 16/08/2011 at 14:27:03
Dave (#34) You have a go at fans using ' Easily pleased ' ' Apologists ' etc. Isen't it a tad hypocritical to have a go at these fans, when you are doing exactly the same labeling fans " The can't - win - don't - try gang " ?
Its something you have used a few times now.
Its something you have used a few times now.
Dave Wilson
46 Posted 16/08/2011 at 14:54:15
46 Posted 16/08/2011 at 14:54:15
Brian
Been using that phrase for a couple of weeks now.
I think it perfectly describes the attitude the people who wont even consider the possibility of a good season.
It made me laugh to think that after years of relentless name calling from the "proper supporters" you would feel aggrieved at the first sign of retaliation.
If its childish name calling you want, I`m sure I could come up with some crackers, far more offensive and insulting than "Apologist" or "Happy clappers" or any of the other names the "superior fan" likes to dredge up whenever his argument has been dismantled.
On second thoughts dont think I`ll bother, It would look like I didnt have anything else to say either.
Been using that phrase for a couple of weeks now.
I think it perfectly describes the attitude the people who wont even consider the possibility of a good season.
It made me laugh to think that after years of relentless name calling from the "proper supporters" you would feel aggrieved at the first sign of retaliation.
If its childish name calling you want, I`m sure I could come up with some crackers, far more offensive and insulting than "Apologist" or "Happy clappers" or any of the other names the "superior fan" likes to dredge up whenever his argument has been dismantled.
On second thoughts dont think I`ll bother, It would look like I didnt have anything else to say either.
Brian Waring
47 Posted 16/08/2011 at 15:38:09
47 Posted 16/08/2011 at 15:38:09
Dave, I don't feel aggrieved at all, to tell you the truth, I don't care what you want to label fans, thats up to you.
I just found it a bit rich that you have a go at fans who call other fans, but in the same breath do it yourself.
Can you see the hypocrisy in that ?
Also, there have been to many false dawns for me to be optimistic for the coming season.
I just found it a bit rich that you have a go at fans who call other fans, but in the same breath do it yourself.
Can you see the hypocrisy in that ?
Also, there have been to many false dawns for me to be optimistic for the coming season.
Brendan McLaughlin
48 Posted 16/08/2011 at 15:35:17
48 Posted 16/08/2011 at 15:35:17
Dave #34
"Why is it that only the pessimists resort to name calling"
"Why is it that only the pessimists resort to name calling"
Dave #44
"Been using that phrase for a couple of weeks now"
10 posts are a long time on ToffeeWeb!
Dave Wilson
49 Posted 16/08/2011 at 15:47:30
49 Posted 16/08/2011 at 15:47:30
Brian.
I think you are being the hypocritical one here, not only have you never condemned the use of childish names you have been guilty of using them too.
I think criticising an attitude is completely different from trying to insult thousands of Evertonians with names deliberately designed to cause offence.
I think you ARE miffed, I wonder how well you "superior fans" would handle a taste of your own medicine.
Not very well judging by your protest
I think you are being the hypocritical one here, not only have you never condemned the use of childish names you have been guilty of using them too.
I think criticising an attitude is completely different from trying to insult thousands of Evertonians with names deliberately designed to cause offence.
I think you ARE miffed, I wonder how well you "superior fans" would handle a taste of your own medicine.
Not very well judging by your protest
Ken Buckley
50 Posted 16/08/2011 at 16:29:47
50 Posted 16/08/2011 at 16:29:47
In my view I believe we have a strong squad and, with a bit of luck on the injury front, we can have a good season.
The board, manager, players and fans all realise we need to strengthen and in which areas. We have all realised this since 2005 yet seem to be going further away from it than ever and it is now causing a friction amongst the factions that is really not needed, it needs sorting and quickly. Who will sort it out? Well the Chairman could give a listen to the track from 'Upturned Coller' -- Who? If not you.
Trevor Mackie
51 Posted 16/08/2011 at 16:40:09
51 Posted 16/08/2011 at 16:40:09
Dave Wilson @ 44
You're really funny, I like your stuff.
I've noticed the later the posting the funnier you get - can't wait till tonight when you've errrmm.......warmed up!
You're really funny, I like your stuff.
I've noticed the later the posting the funnier you get - can't wait till tonight when you've errrmm.......warmed up!
Dave Wilson
52 Posted 16/08/2011 at 16:50:28
52 Posted 16/08/2011 at 16:50:28
Trevor
I like your stuff too.
I particularly liked the way you pretended to be full of bravado and threw down the gauntlet challenging somebody offer you the same odds as the bookies for Everton to be relegated.
How you reeled them in - Ha Ha
It was hilarious the way you pretended to collapse like a house of cards the minute somebody took you up on it
I like your stuff too.
I particularly liked the way you pretended to be full of bravado and threw down the gauntlet challenging somebody offer you the same odds as the bookies for Everton to be relegated.
How you reeled them in - Ha Ha
It was hilarious the way you pretended to collapse like a house of cards the minute somebody took you up on it
Stephen Kenny
53 Posted 16/08/2011 at 16:49:07
53 Posted 16/08/2011 at 16:49:07
I reckon if we talked about some of the things we discuss on here in the pub before/after a game a lot of people would seem a lot less confrontational/angry/pessimistic than they do on here.
I think a lot gets lost in translation and sometimes people feed off others which I bet everybody has done from time to time.
I cant blame anybody for showing frustration the way our pre-season has panned out.
BUT (Note the big but)
IMO, there are reasons to look forward to the season ahead.
Namely Leighton Baines forcing Moyes to acknowledge him as England's no.1 LB, Ross Barkley establishing himself as England's next big prospect and Fellaini showing himself to be the dominant midfielder in this division.
I also think if he can get himself fit Seamus will improve on last year and Arteta may well find his form.
Off the pitch stuff has been done to death and despite the need to make people aware of the issues everybody on here now has thier postion and I doubt many will change from it, regardless of what you label them.
One positive I think we can all agree on is that from this Saturday theres no more traipsing round Ikea or going to look at bathroom suites, you don't have to pretend your in to Cricket, there's something decent to bet on and if your in the house saturday night about half past ten you won't be watching chatty man.
I think a lot gets lost in translation and sometimes people feed off others which I bet everybody has done from time to time.
I cant blame anybody for showing frustration the way our pre-season has panned out.
BUT (Note the big but)
IMO, there are reasons to look forward to the season ahead.
Namely Leighton Baines forcing Moyes to acknowledge him as England's no.1 LB, Ross Barkley establishing himself as England's next big prospect and Fellaini showing himself to be the dominant midfielder in this division.
I also think if he can get himself fit Seamus will improve on last year and Arteta may well find his form.
Off the pitch stuff has been done to death and despite the need to make people aware of the issues everybody on here now has thier postion and I doubt many will change from it, regardless of what you label them.
One positive I think we can all agree on is that from this Saturday theres no more traipsing round Ikea or going to look at bathroom suites, you don't have to pretend your in to Cricket, there's something decent to bet on and if your in the house saturday night about half past ten you won't be watching chatty man.
Brian Waring
54 Posted 16/08/2011 at 17:24:32
54 Posted 16/08/2011 at 17:24:32
Wow Dave, I think its you who is a bit miffed, think I touched a nerve there.
I have used the name ' Apologist ' plenty of times, I'm not denying that.
I don't know how you can call me the hypocrite Dave, I'm not the one having a go at fans for name calling, and then doing it myself, your the one doing that.
Also, I'm not having a go at you for doing it Dave, I couldn't care less, I'm just pointing out your Hypocrisy, and because I have, your getting really defensive and ' Miffed ' .
I have used the name ' Apologist ' plenty of times, I'm not denying that.
I don't know how you can call me the hypocrite Dave, I'm not the one having a go at fans for name calling, and then doing it myself, your the one doing that.
Also, I'm not having a go at you for doing it Dave, I couldn't care less, I'm just pointing out your Hypocrisy, and because I have, your getting really defensive and ' Miffed ' .
Dave Wilson
55 Posted 16/08/2011 at 17:50:28
55 Posted 16/08/2011 at 17:50:28
Brian
I`m not having a go at them, I`m describing what I see as their attitude.
Everyone is entitled to believe our season will be a flop. if they really dont think we can win and choose to prepare themselves for what they see as inevitable failure thats their perogative.
If you or anybody else feels that by describing this attitude as can't-win-don't-try, I am sinking to the level of name-calling then I will cease doing it.
I`m not having a go at them, I`m describing what I see as their attitude.
Everyone is entitled to believe our season will be a flop. if they really dont think we can win and choose to prepare themselves for what they see as inevitable failure thats their perogative.
If you or anybody else feels that by describing this attitude as can't-win-don't-try, I am sinking to the level of name-calling then I will cease doing it.
John Ford
56 Posted 16/08/2011 at 18:49:28
56 Posted 16/08/2011 at 18:49:28
Stephen @51
Indeed im prepared to be optimistic , or at least to say the team did pretty well last year on no resources. A fit Fellaini may mean we do a notch better. 5th or 6th would be a very good showing, whilst we await some kind of redemtion and the cash which would hopefully help us compete with the top teams over the season.
No apologist here, just looking at our league returns and recognising beyond any reasonable factual analsis that Moyes has been a credit to our club. Best of the rest may be all we are but under current circumstances thats a minor miracle.
Indeed im prepared to be optimistic , or at least to say the team did pretty well last year on no resources. A fit Fellaini may mean we do a notch better. 5th or 6th would be a very good showing, whilst we await some kind of redemtion and the cash which would hopefully help us compete with the top teams over the season.
No apologist here, just looking at our league returns and recognising beyond any reasonable factual analsis that Moyes has been a credit to our club. Best of the rest may be all we are but under current circumstances thats a minor miracle.
Stephen Kenny
57 Posted 16/08/2011 at 19:08:34
57 Posted 16/08/2011 at 19:08:34
John,
I agree with you mostIy, although I do feel like David Moyes can at times be his own worst enemy.
I think you should always try and find a way to win however you do it.
I think Moyes has identified that signing quality young players into the academy and bringing them through is the only way open to us with the current constraints. I agree with him and I hope this bears fruit. I don't think you can argue that he does have an eye for a player.
As things change and cycles move on which they always do (we were top dogs on M'side for a long time) we can only hope than they turn in our favour and if there's something along the way we can do we to help we should (KEIOC, Blue Union etc)
It's not just Everton who have problems competing in the modern game, there are plenty of massive clubs who can't get anywhere near the top and probably won't for a long time. Villa, Liverpool and many others all see winning things as thier rightful place.
I still see a side a few players short of challenging but hope the players needed are already with us.
Off the pitch I'm hoping financial fair play gives us a fighting chance and clips the wings of a few of the ridiculous spenders. Hopefully bringing wages and fee's to a relatively sensible level, leaving clubs at all levels with enough to put in place the infrastructure to survive and thrive.
Looking across the spectrum Football is slowly dying IMO and the change to save it will have to come from the top. At least now someone is trying to do that. If this continues into salary caps and other measures it will be to the benefit of EFC.
I agree with you mostIy, although I do feel like David Moyes can at times be his own worst enemy.
I think you should always try and find a way to win however you do it.
I think Moyes has identified that signing quality young players into the academy and bringing them through is the only way open to us with the current constraints. I agree with him and I hope this bears fruit. I don't think you can argue that he does have an eye for a player.
As things change and cycles move on which they always do (we were top dogs on M'side for a long time) we can only hope than they turn in our favour and if there's something along the way we can do we to help we should (KEIOC, Blue Union etc)
It's not just Everton who have problems competing in the modern game, there are plenty of massive clubs who can't get anywhere near the top and probably won't for a long time. Villa, Liverpool and many others all see winning things as thier rightful place.
I still see a side a few players short of challenging but hope the players needed are already with us.
Off the pitch I'm hoping financial fair play gives us a fighting chance and clips the wings of a few of the ridiculous spenders. Hopefully bringing wages and fee's to a relatively sensible level, leaving clubs at all levels with enough to put in place the infrastructure to survive and thrive.
Looking across the spectrum Football is slowly dying IMO and the change to save it will have to come from the top. At least now someone is trying to do that. If this continues into salary caps and other measures it will be to the benefit of EFC.
Peter Laing
58 Posted 16/08/2011 at 20:04:45
58 Posted 16/08/2011 at 20:04:45
Paul your loyalty and positivity is commendable, it reminds me of what it must have felt like to be the captain standing on the deck of the Titanic after she hit the iceberg.
Steve Smith
59 Posted 16/08/2011 at 20:02:12
59 Posted 16/08/2011 at 20:02:12
Micheal 15,
It seems other people have beaten me to it but I could point out other examples if you wish, thanks for not calling me an apologist (although I bet you were itching too) shithouse is not very nice but understandable as I do remember calling you a sycophant many moons ago, so fair do's, at least my post has confirmed that others feel the same as me, what a bunch of shithouses eh ?
It seems other people have beaten me to it but I could point out other examples if you wish, thanks for not calling me an apologist (although I bet you were itching too) shithouse is not very nice but understandable as I do remember calling you a sycophant many moons ago, so fair do's, at least my post has confirmed that others feel the same as me, what a bunch of shithouses eh ?
Trevor Mackie
60 Posted 16/08/2011 at 21:54:47
60 Posted 16/08/2011 at 21:54:47
Dave @ 50
I know you never get your facts right but who put £2500 against my ton?
BTW name calling is something I've pointed out to you before so get a grip. Your persistent aggressive posts are boorish.
I know you never get your facts right but who put £2500 against my ton?
BTW name calling is something I've pointed out to you before so get a grip. Your persistent aggressive posts are boorish.
Dan Brierley
61 Posted 16/08/2011 at 21:24:09
61 Posted 16/08/2011 at 21:24:09
I dont consider myself an apologist, or someone 'holding the club back' or having the attitude of 'keeping the current regime in power'.
But one thing I am quite certain of, is that a new owner wont make a blind bit of difference. Putting Everton shirts in Stockport, or stocking more babies clothing is not going to bridge any gaps. With all the best will in the world, the most successful businessman laden with lashings of 'acumen' would be pushing the boundaries to get us another 3 million a season, nevermind the 100 million needed to compete at the top. The Sky Money is the Sky Money, you cant ask them for more just because you are a successful business man. Same applies to ticketing, are you going to pay double the price of your tickets as the chairmen uses his 'acumen' to ask you to do so? Of course not. For people who think a new owner is going to change anything, I think you are as BLIND or NAIVE as you suggest that some of us that believe the bigger part of the problem is with the league itself, not the board.
City, United and Chelsea are WAY ahead of the rest now. The money they have is ridiculous. Are they unbeatable? Certainly not. All of them will be beaten at some point this season. But what these teams DO have, are squads with depth. Underperforming superstars can be replaced with another superstar. The stranglehold they have is now getting only tighter.
But one thing I am quite certain of, is that a new owner wont make a blind bit of difference. Putting Everton shirts in Stockport, or stocking more babies clothing is not going to bridge any gaps. With all the best will in the world, the most successful businessman laden with lashings of 'acumen' would be pushing the boundaries to get us another 3 million a season, nevermind the 100 million needed to compete at the top. The Sky Money is the Sky Money, you cant ask them for more just because you are a successful business man. Same applies to ticketing, are you going to pay double the price of your tickets as the chairmen uses his 'acumen' to ask you to do so? Of course not. For people who think a new owner is going to change anything, I think you are as BLIND or NAIVE as you suggest that some of us that believe the bigger part of the problem is with the league itself, not the board.
City, United and Chelsea are WAY ahead of the rest now. The money they have is ridiculous. Are they unbeatable? Certainly not. All of them will be beaten at some point this season. But what these teams DO have, are squads with depth. Underperforming superstars can be replaced with another superstar. The stranglehold they have is now getting only tighter.
Brendan McLaughlin
62 Posted 16/08/2011 at 23:08:43
62 Posted 16/08/2011 at 23:08:43
Dave @ 53
Load of crap. Brian Waring called it right. You castigated "pessimists" for resorting to name calling and then admitted you had been doing the same thing for some weeks. But No!..your name calling isn't "name calling" it's describing what you see as "their attitude"
Bit of advice Dave..."When in a hole stop digging"
Load of crap. Brian Waring called it right. You castigated "pessimists" for resorting to name calling and then admitted you had been doing the same thing for some weeks. But No!..your name calling isn't "name calling" it's describing what you see as "their attitude"
Bit of advice Dave..."When in a hole stop digging"
Brendan O'Doherty
63 Posted 17/08/2011 at 01:53:42
63 Posted 17/08/2011 at 01:53:42
Eugene #23, Barry White. Now there's a miserable barsteward if there ever was one, going right back to the 70s.
Roman Sidey
64 Posted 17/08/2011 at 02:12:20
64 Posted 17/08/2011 at 02:12:20
Dan at #59, I believe you and think you are being rational when you suggest that a new board might not do any better than what the current one is achieving.
The other side of the coin I present though, is this: if you are bad at your job, and don't reach certain levels of performance that are specific to your field - levels that your peers are achieving - do you keep your job? I know I wouldn't, and neither should some of our board members.
They are paid extremely well (I honestly believe that anyone being paid to work within sport is paid well no matter how much money they are on) to do a job that they are not doing well.
As I said, you are right in that another board isn't guaranteed more success than Bill and Co., but some, if not all of them need to be held accountable for missing one too many boats.
The other side of the coin I present though, is this: if you are bad at your job, and don't reach certain levels of performance that are specific to your field - levels that your peers are achieving - do you keep your job? I know I wouldn't, and neither should some of our board members.
They are paid extremely well (I honestly believe that anyone being paid to work within sport is paid well no matter how much money they are on) to do a job that they are not doing well.
As I said, you are right in that another board isn't guaranteed more success than Bill and Co., but some, if not all of them need to be held accountable for missing one too many boats.
Dave Wilson
65 Posted 17/08/2011 at 08:53:23
65 Posted 17/08/2011 at 08:53:23
Brendan.
Names like Appologist, Syncophant or Happy clappers are often used by a certain section towards anybody who doesnt agree with EVERYTHING they say, its a mechanism they use to shout down opposing views.
Childish name callers using a very broad brush.
I believe that by describing the people I was making my point to I was stopping short of that.
However I did say that because some felt that I WAS crossing the line, I would cease . .so what is your problem ?
Its kinda funny that after years of this one way traffic such offence seems to have been taken at the first hint of anything comming back - just an observation
Trevor
Firstly you were telling people of our impending relegation, when challenged to a bet you said Paddy Power was offering 25/1 and you wanted the same terms . .but when you were offered a reasonable bet You backed down completely and said you dont gamble.
what`s all that about ?
I havent adressed you directly on any thread in months, yet on several occasions you have attacked me rather than my point. If you dont like the retaliation you hold the solution.
My points are there to be shot at, I`m not
Names like Appologist, Syncophant or Happy clappers are often used by a certain section towards anybody who doesnt agree with EVERYTHING they say, its a mechanism they use to shout down opposing views.
Childish name callers using a very broad brush.
I believe that by describing the people I was making my point to I was stopping short of that.
However I did say that because some felt that I WAS crossing the line, I would cease . .so what is your problem ?
Its kinda funny that after years of this one way traffic such offence seems to have been taken at the first hint of anything comming back - just an observation
Trevor
Firstly you were telling people of our impending relegation, when challenged to a bet you said Paddy Power was offering 25/1 and you wanted the same terms . .but when you were offered a reasonable bet You backed down completely and said you dont gamble.
what`s all that about ?
I havent adressed you directly on any thread in months, yet on several occasions you have attacked me rather than my point. If you dont like the retaliation you hold the solution.
My points are there to be shot at, I`m not
Brian Waring
66 Posted 17/08/2011 at 13:12:56
66 Posted 17/08/2011 at 13:12:56
Dave, who has come out and said they were offended by your labelling ? I wasn't offended by it, as I said, I couldn't care less if you carried on using it. Brendan never said it offended him, he was just backing up the point I was making.
I think this has miffed you Dave, and your trying to turn it round.
I think this has miffed you Dave, and your trying to turn it round.
Eugene Ruane
67 Posted 17/08/2011 at 12:59:02
67 Posted 17/08/2011 at 12:59:02
Dave if you don't want to be 'shot at', it might be wise not to charge into every debate armed with nothing but ill-informed. factless, invented shouty bollocks.
Harsh?
In post 34, you stated..
"My problem with pessimists is that so many of them don't even believe themselves, they do not have the courage of their convictions. It's easy to come on web sites or sit in the ale house and whine "were doomed" ... "we`re going down" ? How many of them actually believe this?"
'Lacking the courage of their convictions'?
Harsh words (but fine with me!).
As for how many of them actually believe it, er...my guess none of them, because none of them actually said it.
However they DO believe in what they DID say.
In post 39, I asked you to show just ONE post from ANYONE who said 'we're going down'.
You failed to do so.
And why?
Because, as I say, it was ill-informed, factless, invented shouty bollocks.
You finish post 63 with "My points are there to be shot at, I'm not"
Wrong (a-fucking-gain!)
On a site such as this, basically, your points ARE you.
If you want to tell people they don't have the conviction of their ways and base this on shite you have INVENTED, you (and your 'points') deserve everything you get.
Harsh?
In post 34, you stated..
"My problem with pessimists is that so many of them don't even believe themselves, they do not have the courage of their convictions. It's easy to come on web sites or sit in the ale house and whine "were doomed" ... "we`re going down" ? How many of them actually believe this?"
'Lacking the courage of their convictions'?
Harsh words (but fine with me!).
As for how many of them actually believe it, er...my guess none of them, because none of them actually said it.
However they DO believe in what they DID say.
In post 39, I asked you to show just ONE post from ANYONE who said 'we're going down'.
You failed to do so.
And why?
Because, as I say, it was ill-informed, factless, invented shouty bollocks.
You finish post 63 with "My points are there to be shot at, I'm not"
Wrong (a-fucking-gain!)
On a site such as this, basically, your points ARE you.
If you want to tell people they don't have the conviction of their ways and base this on shite you have INVENTED, you (and your 'points') deserve everything you get.
Dave Wilson
68 Posted 17/08/2011 at 14:02:31
68 Posted 17/08/2011 at 14:02:31
Eugene
you`re foaming at the mouth again.
The worst thing Alan Kirwin ever did was to walk away from your relentless rambling. Oh I understand why he did it, but you`re behaving like you`re cock of school
Just today you are accusing somebody of being boring - oh the fucken irony - and on another thread you are trying to shout somebody down telling them they are talking "idiotic bollocks".
Seriously - I wouldnt mind if you challenged the occasional football related point when you are seething at anything you percieve as posititve. but it seems you just want to attack anything that isnt painted black.
What is it you want ? a site where everyone is as miserable as you ? The direct opposite to what you percieve to be the happy clapping of the OS ? silent head shaking ? collective despair ?
I didnt respond to you because I didnt want to. It invariably descends into an argument with you getting hysterical about my spelling. it hasnt improved, so why would you want to upset yourself ? I only want to talk about footy . . .I`d be be happy to discuss that anytime with you.
If you want to hear people say we are going down you might want to stroll around the alehouses in town, scan the websites - there plenty of examples . .but if you cant be arsed doing that, why not read the posts on this thread again and decide for yourself if anybody said we are going down . . X marks the spot.
Brian
I WOULD care if I felt the need to sink to name calling level.
I will be extra careful in future.I`d hate to think I too looked as if I resorted to calling fellow Evertoninas idiotic names because I could`nt counter their argument.
you`re foaming at the mouth again.
The worst thing Alan Kirwin ever did was to walk away from your relentless rambling. Oh I understand why he did it, but you`re behaving like you`re cock of school
Just today you are accusing somebody of being boring - oh the fucken irony - and on another thread you are trying to shout somebody down telling them they are talking "idiotic bollocks".
Seriously - I wouldnt mind if you challenged the occasional football related point when you are seething at anything you percieve as posititve. but it seems you just want to attack anything that isnt painted black.
What is it you want ? a site where everyone is as miserable as you ? The direct opposite to what you percieve to be the happy clapping of the OS ? silent head shaking ? collective despair ?
I didnt respond to you because I didnt want to. It invariably descends into an argument with you getting hysterical about my spelling. it hasnt improved, so why would you want to upset yourself ? I only want to talk about footy . . .I`d be be happy to discuss that anytime with you.
If you want to hear people say we are going down you might want to stroll around the alehouses in town, scan the websites - there plenty of examples . .but if you cant be arsed doing that, why not read the posts on this thread again and decide for yourself if anybody said we are going down . . X marks the spot.
Brian
I WOULD care if I felt the need to sink to name calling level.
I will be extra careful in future.I`d hate to think I too looked as if I resorted to calling fellow Evertoninas idiotic names because I could`nt counter their argument.
Eugene Ruane
69 Posted 17/08/2011 at 15:32:35
69 Posted 17/08/2011 at 15:32:35
The single weakest response I have read EVER on TW.
Well done Dave Wilson (66) for...(roll on the drums)..
"I didnt respond to you because I didnt want to"
Dave, take a bow son!
Well done Dave Wilson (66) for...(roll on the drums)..
"I didnt respond to you because I didnt want to"
Dave, take a bow son!
Dave Wilson
70 Posted 17/08/2011 at 15:51:44
70 Posted 17/08/2011 at 15:51:44
Eugene.
I was hoping the bindingly obvious would have twatted you between the eyes and youd have realised how dumb your question was.
Better ?
I was hoping the bindingly obvious would have twatted you between the eyes and youd have realised how dumb your question was.
Better ?
Eugene Ruane
71 Posted 17/08/2011 at 15:35:11
71 Posted 17/08/2011 at 15:35:11
Dave, here's how it works in normal-land.
If YOU make a claim (ie: on this website there are pessimists saying Everton will go down) and someone who disagrees asks you to back it up with just ONE quote from someone saying 'Everton will go down', you have two choices.
Make THEM look a twat by providing a quote, or make YOURSELF look a twat by saying...
"..why not read the posts on this thread again and decide for yourself if anybody said we are going down . . X marks the spot"
Decide?
Dave, NOBODY - ON - THIS - THREAD - SAYS - WE'RE - GOING - DOWN.
X marks absolutely nothing.
And you add even MORE wrongness.
Just to be clear - I didn't accuse anyone of being boring (read the WORDS of the post, not the ones in your head).
But hey, if I DID, simply copy and paste the single quote 'Hey X, you are boring' and it'll be ME that looks a twat.
I DID accuse someone of talking idiotic bollocks but...so did every other poster on the 'support Kenwright' thread'
Sounds like you're picking on me Dave!
If YOU make a claim (ie: on this website there are pessimists saying Everton will go down) and someone who disagrees asks you to back it up with just ONE quote from someone saying 'Everton will go down', you have two choices.
Make THEM look a twat by providing a quote, or make YOURSELF look a twat by saying...
"..why not read the posts on this thread again and decide for yourself if anybody said we are going down . . X marks the spot"
Decide?
Dave, NOBODY - ON - THIS - THREAD - SAYS - WE'RE - GOING - DOWN.
X marks absolutely nothing.
And you add even MORE wrongness.
Just to be clear - I didn't accuse anyone of being boring (read the WORDS of the post, not the ones in your head).
But hey, if I DID, simply copy and paste the single quote 'Hey X, you are boring' and it'll be ME that looks a twat.
I DID accuse someone of talking idiotic bollocks but...so did every other poster on the 'support Kenwright' thread'
Sounds like you're picking on me Dave!
Brian Waring
72 Posted 17/08/2011 at 17:18:49
72 Posted 17/08/2011 at 17:18:49
Whatever you say Dave.
Roman Sidey
73 Posted 17/08/2011 at 17:39:50
73 Posted 17/08/2011 at 17:39:50
Dave, in the 5th paragraph of your post at #66, you said "be" twice in a row.
Jon Smith
74 Posted 17/08/2011 at 21:42:17
74 Posted 17/08/2011 at 21:42:17
It does the majority of people on this website (who seem to prefer to be doom-mongers) no favours that even the quick summary of the Bohemians game had to have a negative vibe about 'ominous' rumours about Liverpool and Baines.
Doesn't Baines play left back ? Haven't they literally within the last week signed a left back ?! How did that make it through the editorial review ?
Kind of fuel to the fire for anyone who wants to point out the overwhelmingly negative attitiude of the people who post on here.
Doesn't Baines play left back ? Haven't they literally within the last week signed a left back ?! How did that make it through the editorial review ?
Kind of fuel to the fire for anyone who wants to point out the overwhelmingly negative attitiude of the people who post on here.
Andrew Earlam
75 Posted 17/08/2011 at 21:44:09
75 Posted 17/08/2011 at 21:44:09
To be honest Dave I'm yet to hear you argue with the content of anyones posts which tells a tale in itself.Chill out mate it's only a footy forum.
Brendan McLaughlin
76 Posted 17/08/2011 at 23:45:30
76 Posted 17/08/2011 at 23:45:30
Dave #73
What is my problem? Well I have a very low hypocrisy threshold and you brought me out in a rash. Bit of advice Dave when in a hole don't bring the excavators in!!!
What is my problem? Well I have a very low hypocrisy threshold and you brought me out in a rash. Bit of advice Dave when in a hole don't bring the excavators in!!!
Dave Wilson
77 Posted 18/08/2011 at 08:18:33
77 Posted 18/08/2011 at 08:18:33
There`s two post on here that are pivitol to your argument
A) "on this website there are pessimist saying Everton will go down"
B)"Its easy to come on websites or sit in alehouses and say "we`re doomed"
Poles apart ? well of course.
(B) is what I said and (A) is what you have gotten into your head what you THINK I said . .can you spot the difference ? its not as if there are any difficult words in there - like cheese.
Its seems you not only want be to back up what I say, you also want me to back up what you say . . .
Recently on these pages - the Tony Marsh thread - several posts were submitted along the lines of
A) we are a classic example of a team who are too good to go down.
B) we are a busted flush, the West Ham of the north.
C) Bookies make us 5th favourites for the drop - generous bookies
D)I wouldnt be against us going down in the next couple of season . .
As I say, I`m used to being asked to back up what I say and I found it bizzarre that you wanted me to back up what YOU say, but if it makes you happy . .
Brendan
Know what you mean Mate. Defeatism has exactly the same effect on me. guess we`ll both just have to learn to be more tolerant
A) "on this website there are pessimist saying Everton will go down"
B)"Its easy to come on websites or sit in alehouses and say "we`re doomed"
Poles apart ? well of course.
(B) is what I said and (A) is what you have gotten into your head what you THINK I said . .can you spot the difference ? its not as if there are any difficult words in there - like cheese.
Its seems you not only want be to back up what I say, you also want me to back up what you say . . .
Recently on these pages - the Tony Marsh thread - several posts were submitted along the lines of
A) we are a classic example of a team who are too good to go down.
B) we are a busted flush, the West Ham of the north.
C) Bookies make us 5th favourites for the drop - generous bookies
D)I wouldnt be against us going down in the next couple of season . .
As I say, I`m used to being asked to back up what I say and I found it bizzarre that you wanted me to back up what YOU say, but if it makes you happy . .
Brendan
Know what you mean Mate. Defeatism has exactly the same effect on me. guess we`ll both just have to learn to be more tolerant
Scott Hamilton
78 Posted 18/08/2011 at 10:37:51
78 Posted 18/08/2011 at 10:37:51
All of those that have been crying out for a statement from the club, you now have it.
http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/2011/08/18/chairman-on-finances
I for one am delighted for the world and his wife to know that previously we have "begged and borrowed" to build the squad but that now, not matter how much we "beg", we cannot borrow.
As the phrase that is used on this website frequently goes: Be careful what you wish for.
http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/2011/08/18/chairman-on-finances
I for one am delighted for the world and his wife to know that previously we have "begged and borrowed" to build the squad but that now, not matter how much we "beg", we cannot borrow.
As the phrase that is used on this website frequently goes: Be careful what you wish for.
Eugene Ruane
79 Posted 18/08/2011 at 11:24:15
79 Posted 18/08/2011 at 11:24:15
Scott (76) In reality, there's probably little to be gained from 'the world and his wife' knowing our business.
VERY little if I'm honest.
In fact the only thing I can think of (and it's not much of a 'gain') is it puts a tiny bit of pressure on our inept board and boss.
Plus it lets the media know that the praise they usually reserve for Kenwright (nb: praise that helps strengthen and cement his position) is misplaced.
As I say, not much of a gain.
However, I'm positive there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to be gained from saying nothing, pretending all's well, and (consequently) treating all supporters like idiots.
VERY little if I'm honest.
In fact the only thing I can think of (and it's not much of a 'gain') is it puts a tiny bit of pressure on our inept board and boss.
Plus it lets the media know that the praise they usually reserve for Kenwright (nb: praise that helps strengthen and cement his position) is misplaced.
As I say, not much of a gain.
However, I'm positive there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to be gained from saying nothing, pretending all's well, and (consequently) treating all supporters like idiots.
Scott Hamilton
80 Posted 18/08/2011 at 12:27:48
80 Posted 18/08/2011 at 12:27:48
Eugene - I still don't see the correlation between saying nothing and treating supporters like idiots.
In fact, it is probably because Everton's (smarter than average) supporters have sussed pretty-much everything that is or is not happening at the club that there have been no statements until now.
We cannot borrow money = guessed it
We struggled to borrow money previously = guessed it
We can't buy players without first selling = guessed it
No incoming investment or new owners = etc etc
As I have said before, how airing such dirty laundry in daylight and in front of the British press can be construed as something positive is beyond me
Direct contact with fans' consortia makes much more sense at this stage.
Posts appear on this site on a daily basis which talk of how we are a laughing stock and that our nearest neighbours constantly remind us of that fact. Will BK's comments help that?
Many like to remind us that Everton is a product; a commodity that we all believe in and "purchase". As Gerald Ratner once proved, your commodity can be massively devalued by choosing your words without caution. Better still, where the truth is known by those that count already and is not for general consumption, shut the fuck up!
In fact, it is probably because Everton's (smarter than average) supporters have sussed pretty-much everything that is or is not happening at the club that there have been no statements until now.
We cannot borrow money = guessed it
We struggled to borrow money previously = guessed it
We can't buy players without first selling = guessed it
No incoming investment or new owners = etc etc
As I have said before, how airing such dirty laundry in daylight and in front of the British press can be construed as something positive is beyond me
Direct contact with fans' consortia makes much more sense at this stage.
Posts appear on this site on a daily basis which talk of how we are a laughing stock and that our nearest neighbours constantly remind us of that fact. Will BK's comments help that?
Many like to remind us that Everton is a product; a commodity that we all believe in and "purchase". As Gerald Ratner once proved, your commodity can be massively devalued by choosing your words without caution. Better still, where the truth is known by those that count already and is not for general consumption, shut the fuck up!
Eugene Ruane
81 Posted 18/08/2011 at 13:43:28
81 Posted 18/08/2011 at 13:43:28
Scott, I can't claim anything as fact, I can only look at what's out there (or not out there) and make a decision based on it.
I agree most of what has gone on HAS been previously sussed, but (for me) that is no justification for continued/continual silence from Everton FC.
And I don't buy any idea that the club may have kept quiet because they figured we'd guess stuff so..there was no point.
(look at their record - do you honestly feel you've been treated like an intelligent consumer?)
Also (again, just in my opinion) saying 'nothing' isn't always LITERALLY saying nothing.
Saying nothing can be saying 'hey everything's ok'.
Saying nothing can be saying 'give us your money and keep your fucking nose out' (which is how I feel)
You say you don't know how any of this 'washing of dirty laundry' can be construed as positive.
Well fine, maybe it's not 'positive' or 'feel-good' but personally, I'm not looking for much right now.
For me, just feeling like I'm not being treated like a twat will do for now.
Anyway, unless silence is more profitable (and in our case, it can't be!) why not just tell the truth and shame the devil.
Not a cure but definitely not a curse.
I agree most of what has gone on HAS been previously sussed, but (for me) that is no justification for continued/continual silence from Everton FC.
And I don't buy any idea that the club may have kept quiet because they figured we'd guess stuff so..there was no point.
(look at their record - do you honestly feel you've been treated like an intelligent consumer?)
Also (again, just in my opinion) saying 'nothing' isn't always LITERALLY saying nothing.
Saying nothing can be saying 'hey everything's ok'.
Saying nothing can be saying 'give us your money and keep your fucking nose out' (which is how I feel)
You say you don't know how any of this 'washing of dirty laundry' can be construed as positive.
Well fine, maybe it's not 'positive' or 'feel-good' but personally, I'm not looking for much right now.
For me, just feeling like I'm not being treated like a twat will do for now.
Anyway, unless silence is more profitable (and in our case, it can't be!) why not just tell the truth and shame the devil.
Not a cure but definitely not a curse.
Scott Hamilton
82 Posted 18/08/2011 at 15:08:13
82 Posted 18/08/2011 at 15:08:13
Eugene,
There is an irony in that, if I do not respond to your last post, then by my own logic you must be right!
I think we should agree to disagree and focus on any positives (should they ever appear!)
As for Saturday; I hate to say it but I can see it being a draw!
There is an irony in that, if I do not respond to your last post, then by my own logic you must be right!
I think we should agree to disagree and focus on any positives (should they ever appear!)
As for Saturday; I hate to say it but I can see it being a draw!
Eugene Ruane
83 Posted 18/08/2011 at 15:22:29
83 Posted 18/08/2011 at 15:22:29
Scott, agreed.
(have a feeling you might right about the draw against QPR - REALLY hope not like).
(have a feeling you might right about the draw against QPR - REALLY hope not like).
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1 Posted 15/08/2011 at 23:18:43
I admire your stance but sadly reality hurts.