Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
'Table Football' football?
By Chris Rudd :: 23/08/2011
69 Comments (»Last)
Putting aside all the Kenwright stuff for just a moment or two, Saturday's game has, I know, led to arguments up and down the land (and across the globe judging by this site) concerning the performance and the extent to which David Moyes's team selection dictated the level of that performance. From the "What's he supposed to do with no money?" believers to the "Defensive-minded shite" detractors, opinions have been many and varied and the arguments heated and desperate.
Now, I don't claim to be a tactical genius and Moyes is the manager and has more experience than any of us on here (unless Howard tunes in to ToffeeWeb) in running a professional football team, but even his greatest supporters must be starting to think he's just a little out of touch with what's going on at the better end of the Premier League and in football generally.
Watching a young Man United side on TV last night, you couldn't help noticing the fluidity of their movement, the interplay between the different units of their team and the lack of "table football" lines across the pitch. Every area of the team had depth to it, players weren't moving in rigid rows ? making them so much harder to pick up for defenders and so much easier to pick out with a pass, for team mates.
Rooney has become a master of the 'Barcelona-style' drifting between the lines, and orchestrates all around him but even relative rookies such as Cleverley, Wellbeck, Jones and Smalling looked comfortable and, dare I say it, 'happy' playing this fluid style.
Now, I'm not here to praise Ferguson, but in my opinion this staid rigidity in Moyes's teams is killing us. Making us terrible to watch and often ineffective against organised teams set up to stifle. Hence our recent struggles against Wolves, Stoke, Birmingham etc etc. And now QPR.
We can argue all day and all night, and we do, about the relative merits of our players, but results against the better teams last season would seem to suggest that we do have some decent senior players and some promising youngsters. Barkley's performance on Saturday was a joy to watch because he didn't look weighed down with tactics and was progressive throughout, always looking to move the ball forward and then find space. So many of our players look pedestrian because the only ball on is a sideways one because of those rigid lines.
Pace is an expensive commodity which we're sorely lacking but movement is something that any set of players can be coaxed into. Beckford gets a lot of stick on here, some of it justified, but he along with Fellaini and Baines find space and have constantly good movement. Playing a more fluid 4-1-3-2 or 4-2-3-1 formation would enable progression up the field as a group without the need for lightning pace and would stop our lone and/or supplementary striker getting isolated ? which presently happens throughout every game.
They say that doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is the definition of madness. Moyes's version of 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 has surely had its day and it's time for a change. We've no money, neither the manager nor the chairman is going anywhere in the immediate future, as far as I can see, and we're probably stuck with the squad we have until Christmas at least. So, given that we can't change any of that, why not change our thinking.
A formation is really just a state of mind, so dismiss the dour... put a bit of fluidity and joy back into Everton's football starting on Wednesday night and you never know, we might just see a change in early season performances and results. Here's hoping...
Reader Comments (69)
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David Bridge
2 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:39:49
2 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:39:49
Moyes has played shit defensive stifling tactics for years thats why all our creative players move on!
Nothing will change until we get rid of Moyes and BK and bring a spark and optimism back to Goodison but neither will go and most of the fans are content with the shit state of affairs so we allow it.
Im glad I missed Saturdays game, thankfully it landed the same weekend as the V festival but think this is going to be another disapointing season.
Nothing will change until we get rid of Moyes and BK and bring a spark and optimism back to Goodison but neither will go and most of the fans are content with the shit state of affairs so we allow it.
Im glad I missed Saturdays game, thankfully it landed the same weekend as the V festival but think this is going to be another disapointing season.
Christine Foster
3 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:40:31
3 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:40:31
Good post Chris, I think the reason Barkley did well because he was too young and too inexperienced to be drilled in Moyes tactics, the difference was there for all to see. We need to let the players play more, Fluidity is obscene word in the tactics manual Moyes has, we know he drills the team to play one way, risk averse and frankly with no imagination.
What would happen I wonder if the team decided themselves where to play and their own tactics.. can't be worse than where we are!
What would happen I wonder if the team decided themselves where to play and their own tactics.. can't be worse than where we are!
Gerry Grimes
4 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:52:26
4 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:52:26
Man Utd were in a different league last night.
Hard to see what the tactic was other than "feel free to run at them, and be sure the rest of you support the runners". Spurs were simply ran off the pitch by youthful exuberance. That said, in Young and Nani, Utd enjoy real width and in Rooney, Cleverly and Wellbeck they were always given options.
Key lesson is if you want to be less rigid in your system you need players who can use the full width of the pitch. Coleman apart, it's difficult to see anyone who'll get to the byline for Everton.
I agree that we need to mix it. We're very predictable and getting easy to set up against.
Steve Guy
5 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:58:05
5 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:58:05
Not to rain on your parade, but outside of Goodison, Moyes is hailed as a master tactician by the football press and fellow managers!
Not sure why myself, given the overly cautious approach he takes to every game: setting up not to get beat. Don't get me started on his substitutions, on which I have commented over a number of seasons now and he still is no better.
Not sure why myself, given the overly cautious approach he takes to every game: setting up not to get beat. Don't get me started on his substitutions, on which I have commented over a number of seasons now and he still is no better.
Ian Tunstead
6 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:49:17
6 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:49:17
What are you talking about Christine?
'I think the reason Barkley did well because he was too young and too inexperienced to be drilled in Moyes tactics, the difference was there for all to see.'
If that was true that Barkley was not following Moyes instruction that he had drilled into him don't you think Moyes would have dropped him for someone who was drilled into his tactics? The truth is, agaisnt DC United in pre-season Barkley was being defensive minded trying to stay in position but Moyes was the one telling to get forward and attack!
If what you say is true how come all the other young players that have been played have not been as good as Barkley, surley they are too young to have Moyes tactics drilled into them?
You are talking bollocks! Rooney and Barkley are rare attacking talent with natural ability and skill that cant be coached in or out of a player, youv'e either got it or you havn't.
'I think the reason Barkley did well because he was too young and too inexperienced to be drilled in Moyes tactics, the difference was there for all to see.'
If that was true that Barkley was not following Moyes instruction that he had drilled into him don't you think Moyes would have dropped him for someone who was drilled into his tactics? The truth is, agaisnt DC United in pre-season Barkley was being defensive minded trying to stay in position but Moyes was the one telling to get forward and attack!
If what you say is true how come all the other young players that have been played have not been as good as Barkley, surley they are too young to have Moyes tactics drilled into them?
You are talking bollocks! Rooney and Barkley are rare attacking talent with natural ability and skill that cant be coached in or out of a player, youv'e either got it or you havn't.
David Chait
7 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:02:36
7 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:02:36
Well I will be more than happy to praise SAF... the fact that they won the league last year is categorically down to him imo.. I said before I could only imagine if he had his hands on our team at the start fo last season what could have been achieved. Flip.. even this season I would love to see what he could do with our youngsters.. I can tell you they wouldn't be in the reserves.. they would either be playing or loaned out.
James Morgan
8 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:48:55
8 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:48:55
We've become so rigid it's mind numbing. Obviously we aren't blessed with the quality of players of Barcelona but couldnt we operate with wing backs in Coleman and Baines à la Alves and Abidal? Fellaini in the Busquets role with Arteta and Barkley as our Xavi and Iniesta. Front 3 perhaps of Bilyaletdinov, Saha and Gueye?
Surely that's a team with craft, fluidity and movement! Though that would never cross the stubborn ones mind. I wonder if he ever watches other teams for ideas? I can just imagine the dressing room:
"Ok boys, today we are gonna go for 4-5-1, Timmy, I want you behind Jermaine. Jags, whack it out as soon as ya get it. Pip, you're in as ever. Johnny, just look busy in midfield. Vic and Jack, heads or tails?"
Sigh.
Brendan McLaughlin
9 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:14:31
9 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:14:31
So Barkley was impressive in spite of Moyes tactics and the other overpaid "primadona's" were shite because of Moyes tactics.
Yeah right!
Yeah right!
David Alexander
10 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:29:44
10 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:29:44
I'd love us to play with more movement and freedom but look at the state of our defence! We ship all sorts of sloppy goals ? Saturday was a case in point, as was the start of last season when we were shiping 2 a game.
It's pretty obvious that Moyes has taken the route that if your defence can't defend on their own then the midfield will need to do it for them. Games like that won't be exiting but we do win more than we loose and have finished in the top 7 for the last 5 years.
It might not be pretty but it seems to be effective!
It's pretty obvious that Moyes has taken the route that if your defence can't defend on their own then the midfield will need to do it for them. Games like that won't be exiting but we do win more than we loose and have finished in the top 7 for the last 5 years.
It might not be pretty but it seems to be effective!
Tony J Williams
11 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:29:56
11 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:29:56
Brendan, it's the easy comments that many make. They are unable to give any credit when it's due. When something goes well, it's in spite of Moyes and when it goes to crap it's because of him. It's a no lose position, which is frankly idiotic.
One question though, if Barkley has been training with the first team some months now, how is he getting a game if he is constantly going against "orders"?
One question though, if Barkley has been training with the first team some months now, how is he getting a game if he is constantly going against "orders"?
Jimmy Sorheim
12 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:38:48
12 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:38:48
So let us start with Gueye and Baxter on the wings, and Vellios and Mecaleny in front.
Maybe, just maybe we will see a whole different team. Put Neville at left back and Banies up onto the wing for Sheffield Utd game as Gueye is injured. I think that could work.
Maybe, just maybe we will see a whole different team. Put Neville at left back and Banies up onto the wing for Sheffield Utd game as Gueye is injured. I think that could work.
Mike Elbey
13 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:51:51
13 Posted 23/08/2011 at 13:51:51
To be fair to Christine I think the point she was trying to make was that as a young player making his debut Moyes didnt want to over-burden him with tactics and effectively just told him to 'go out and play' ? his performance certainly was a breath of fresh air and had a youthful carefree exuberance to it.
Once he is setlled in the team, do you think he will continue to be given a free role or will Moyes start to tell him he has to track back to cover the full back etc? I think I know which and I think that's what Christine was eluding to ? and it's a fair point....
Once he is setlled in the team, do you think he will continue to be given a free role or will Moyes start to tell him he has to track back to cover the full back etc? I think I know which and I think that's what Christine was eluding to ? and it's a fair point....
Ian Tunstead
14 Posted 23/08/2011 at 14:30:28
14 Posted 23/08/2011 at 14:30:28
Bollocks Mike. It's very simple, it works like this; Clubs from around the country, (world) are producing very good young players; Smalling at Fulham, Jones at Blackburn, Rooney at Everton, Cleverley and Wellback sent out on loan. These players are already good players long before SAF gets hold of them.
Then the teams with the most money buy the best young players and put them together like some kind of ultimate youth team were they can develop and gell together over the years.
They were already good players that had great potential and evry body new it. Rooney would still be a great player if he was at Everton now, it would not be coached out of him.
Then the teams with the most money buy the best young players and put them together like some kind of ultimate youth team were they can develop and gell together over the years.
They were already good players that had great potential and evry body new it. Rooney would still be a great player if he was at Everton now, it would not be coached out of him.
Gavin Ramejkis
15 Posted 23/08/2011 at 15:45:53
15 Posted 23/08/2011 at 15:45:53
Ian if Shrek was still at Everton he'd be the size of Yak chasing lost balls into the corner flags with his nearest fellow player a good ten yards behind him.
Mike Elbey
16 Posted 23/08/2011 at 15:47:20
16 Posted 23/08/2011 at 15:47:20
Who exactly said it would be coached out of him Ian ?
I never said Moyes would turn Barkley into a shit player, all I did was agree with Christine that eventually Moyes would insist he improved on his defensive duties and this would more than likely be to the detriment of his attacking instinct that he seems to currently possess.
What I said had absolutely nothing to do with Alex Ferguson or sending players out on loan so to use your own phrase, stop talking bollocks !!
I never said Moyes would turn Barkley into a shit player, all I did was agree with Christine that eventually Moyes would insist he improved on his defensive duties and this would more than likely be to the detriment of his attacking instinct that he seems to currently possess.
What I said had absolutely nothing to do with Alex Ferguson or sending players out on loan so to use your own phrase, stop talking bollocks !!
Ian Tunstead
17 Posted 23/08/2011 at 16:00:59
17 Posted 23/08/2011 at 16:00:59
Gavin what are you suggesting, that it is Moyes fault that Yak looks fat? Yak has always been of big build the same as Rooney, that does not mean either of them are overweight. The Yak was doing well up until his injury.
Mike, Christine clearly suggests it would be coached out of him. As for
'Moyes would insist he improved on his defensive duties and this would more than likely be to the detriment of his attacking instinct that he seems to currently possess.'
Doesn't Rooney track back and help out with his defensive duties at Man Utd? Isn't that one of his many qualities that makes him such a great player? But as i said in my 1st post
'The truth is, against DC United in pre-season Barkley was being defensive minded trying to stay in position but Moyes was the one telling to get forward and attack!'
Quote from David Moyes form Liverpool Echo "I went in after the game and i said i was disappointed with how the players played but not to Ross. Ross got a big pat on the back. He nearly carried the team today, he made chances, he tried to take chances and he looked really good today"
isn?t that contradicting his philosophy that you perceive him to have? Why would he try to change his game?
Mike, Christine clearly suggests it would be coached out of him. As for
'Moyes would insist he improved on his defensive duties and this would more than likely be to the detriment of his attacking instinct that he seems to currently possess.'
Doesn't Rooney track back and help out with his defensive duties at Man Utd? Isn't that one of his many qualities that makes him such a great player? But as i said in my 1st post
'The truth is, against DC United in pre-season Barkley was being defensive minded trying to stay in position but Moyes was the one telling to get forward and attack!'
Quote from David Moyes form Liverpool Echo "I went in after the game and i said i was disappointed with how the players played but not to Ross. Ross got a big pat on the back. He nearly carried the team today, he made chances, he tried to take chances and he looked really good today"
isn?t that contradicting his philosophy that you perceive him to have? Why would he try to change his game?
Jay Harris
18 Posted 23/08/2011 at 16:56:14
18 Posted 23/08/2011 at 16:56:14
I have to agree with Ian.
Ferguson has always snapped up the BEST youth players and put them in with quality players.
The best players usually are the best teams and play the best football.
Smalling and Jones cost a lot of money as did Rooney,Nani, Young and Anderson.
We cant even afford a player on loan.
There is the difference.
Ferguson has always snapped up the BEST youth players and put them in with quality players.
The best players usually are the best teams and play the best football.
Smalling and Jones cost a lot of money as did Rooney,Nani, Young and Anderson.
We cant even afford a player on loan.
There is the difference.
Chris Rudd
19 Posted 23/08/2011 at 17:21:59
19 Posted 23/08/2011 at 17:21:59
I'm amazed guys. Is that it then? Shall we just pack it in now? Because according to a few posters on here we've no money so we've no 'effin chance anyway.
I wasn't suggesting that tinkering with the formation might make us world beaters but that it might make us more entertaining and watchable and make a lot more of what we presently have.
I'm talking about football management and coaching not accountancy which we all now know, as a club we're bloody useless at.
I'm even more depressed now. Someone switch the lights out on the way out...
I wasn't suggesting that tinkering with the formation might make us world beaters but that it might make us more entertaining and watchable and make a lot more of what we presently have.
I'm talking about football management and coaching not accountancy which we all now know, as a club we're bloody useless at.
I'm even more depressed now. Someone switch the lights out on the way out...
Ian Tunstead
20 Posted 23/08/2011 at 17:37:03
20 Posted 23/08/2011 at 17:37:03
Its very sad Chris i know. Tinkering with the formation would only make a very small differnece, but when you have to play players out of position because you dont have any wingers what differnce is the formation going to make? We could go down the route of Blackpool last season and West Brom a few seasons ago, but it will lkely end like it did with them in relegation. Even with all of Arsenals great players and pritty football they have shown you need a little more than that.
Michael Kelly
21 Posted 23/08/2011 at 17:43:33
21 Posted 23/08/2011 at 17:43:33
Look, to all these defenders of the Moyes faith ? it's not like he's had 10 months at it, it's 10 seasons... No sign of a trophy, that's what it's all about, trying to win something! So he's had his go... move on, get someone else in, instead of constantly making excuses for his shortfalls.
Michael Kelly
22 Posted 23/08/2011 at 18:04:52
22 Posted 23/08/2011 at 18:04:52
Moyes on sky sports urging CAUTION towards Barkley getting over hyped and says he will be selected occasionally. Here we go again... just fucking play him, we don't have the squad to cover him.
Marcus Kendall
23 Posted 23/08/2011 at 18:35:30
23 Posted 23/08/2011 at 18:35:30
ohh come on Ian your acting like the Premier League is a super league full of super teams!
the majority of the Premiership is of poor standard, if Moyes had more tactical qualities we'd be beating the likes of QPR comfortably. Theres no chance of Everton getting relegated because we actually have good players, just a poorly balanced squad and thats down to the manager and his obsession with versatile players rather than out and out positional specialists.
I'll repeat for the umpteenth time that if we had Poyet in charge we'd look MILES better
the majority of the Premiership is of poor standard, if Moyes had more tactical qualities we'd be beating the likes of QPR comfortably. Theres no chance of Everton getting relegated because we actually have good players, just a poorly balanced squad and thats down to the manager and his obsession with versatile players rather than out and out positional specialists.
I'll repeat for the umpteenth time that if we had Poyet in charge we'd look MILES better
Mike Elbey
24 Posted 23/08/2011 at 18:48:38
24 Posted 23/08/2011 at 18:48:38
Ian,
I think you are missing the point comparing what Rooney does at Man Utd and what Barkley is likely to end up doing at Everton.
Rooney plays under a manager who encourages attacking play - just look at the number of players in the box when they put crosses in from open play. Yes they have a fine side assembled at massive cost but his philosophy is still to attack. we are lucky if we have one man in the box when we put a cross in, particularly if its in the first 65 minutes of a game.
We have a manager who looks not to lose a game first and foremost and as such everyone is drilled into what they have to do to stop the opposition scoring. Eventually Barkley will be drilled in the same way. We hardly ever score in a first half, home or away and its generally not until 65 minutes into a game before Moyes will change anything. We simply do not get men in the box until later in the game, its as simple as that - that is why we score late goals, because we finally commit men forward in an attempt to salvage a draw or win it late on.
We can point to the difference in spending power between us and others as much as we want but let me ask you this. Out of Man Utd v Spurs and Everton v QPR, which game on paper had the bigger differential in ability between the two teams ? I would say there is a far greater gap between us / QPR than there is between Man Utd / Spurs and yet one manager attacks and entertains whilst the other just trains the players into playing mind numbing, slow, boring and un-penetrative football. That is why we are all pissed off. I have been a season ticket holder for over 20 years and after Saturday its the first time I have ever questioned why I go to the game because what we are being served up is just utter shite.
I've gone off the Barkley thread a bit so I apologise - we can agree to differ on that one.... Rant over..
I think you are missing the point comparing what Rooney does at Man Utd and what Barkley is likely to end up doing at Everton.
Rooney plays under a manager who encourages attacking play - just look at the number of players in the box when they put crosses in from open play. Yes they have a fine side assembled at massive cost but his philosophy is still to attack. we are lucky if we have one man in the box when we put a cross in, particularly if its in the first 65 minutes of a game.
We have a manager who looks not to lose a game first and foremost and as such everyone is drilled into what they have to do to stop the opposition scoring. Eventually Barkley will be drilled in the same way. We hardly ever score in a first half, home or away and its generally not until 65 minutes into a game before Moyes will change anything. We simply do not get men in the box until later in the game, its as simple as that - that is why we score late goals, because we finally commit men forward in an attempt to salvage a draw or win it late on.
We can point to the difference in spending power between us and others as much as we want but let me ask you this. Out of Man Utd v Spurs and Everton v QPR, which game on paper had the bigger differential in ability between the two teams ? I would say there is a far greater gap between us / QPR than there is between Man Utd / Spurs and yet one manager attacks and entertains whilst the other just trains the players into playing mind numbing, slow, boring and un-penetrative football. That is why we are all pissed off. I have been a season ticket holder for over 20 years and after Saturday its the first time I have ever questioned why I go to the game because what we are being served up is just utter shite.
I've gone off the Barkley thread a bit so I apologise - we can agree to differ on that one.... Rant over..
Ian Tunstead
25 Posted 23/08/2011 at 19:04:29
25 Posted 23/08/2011 at 19:04:29
Nonsense Marcus, i've heard it all before and i'll repeat it for the umpteenth time about who would apparently make us look miles better. What happend to Di Matteo? What happend to Holloway or Dave Jones, where did Martinez finish what happend to Hughes or Hodgson? Every year a different name every year the same outcome, Moyes finished above them all.
Haha on whos say so is the premiership a poor standard, yours? Is that why it's the most watched and entertaining league in the world? I remember Man Utd getting beat by West Ham 1-0 a couple of seasons ago when they were bottom of the league, it is possible, we dont have the devine right to be beating QPR comfortably, that is football, it happens.
No team outside the top 6 is too good to be relegated. Spurs looked to be getting relegated before Harry came in and Bolton before Coyle came in. Even Liverpool looked to be struggling before Kenny arrived.
It's not down to Moyes having a poorly balanced squad if he doesn't have the money to bring players in. He brought Donovan in on loan he wanted to sign Nzogbia but we dont have the money. We need to buy versatile players because we only have a small squad and some of them like Saha we could only afford because he was known for being injury prone which is even more reason to have versatile players Come on use your brainsand think about what you are saying.
Haha on whos say so is the premiership a poor standard, yours? Is that why it's the most watched and entertaining league in the world? I remember Man Utd getting beat by West Ham 1-0 a couple of seasons ago when they were bottom of the league, it is possible, we dont have the devine right to be beating QPR comfortably, that is football, it happens.
No team outside the top 6 is too good to be relegated. Spurs looked to be getting relegated before Harry came in and Bolton before Coyle came in. Even Liverpool looked to be struggling before Kenny arrived.
It's not down to Moyes having a poorly balanced squad if he doesn't have the money to bring players in. He brought Donovan in on loan he wanted to sign Nzogbia but we dont have the money. We need to buy versatile players because we only have a small squad and some of them like Saha we could only afford because he was known for being injury prone which is even more reason to have versatile players Come on use your brainsand think about what you are saying.
Marcus Kendall
26 Posted 23/08/2011 at 19:24:39
26 Posted 23/08/2011 at 19:24:39
I never mentioned any of those names you mentioned as possible Everton managers, I agree they are all worse than Moyes. Poyet on the other hand is a manager I highly rate and hes destined for big things, why not make the first move? Or shall we just stay with the status quo and move backwards?
Well I and many people I know think this is a weak Premiership, the reason the smaller sides get one off results against the biggers sides is simply because the biggers sides are not really that great. Man Utd were poor champions last season, Chelsea were in disarray, Plastic City are just a joke club and Arsenal/Liverpool/Tottenham have many weaknesses.
I always use my brain thank you very much, I know football and I know Moyes brought badly with the Lescott money. We DIDN'T need Heitinga or Bilyaletdinov, Distin was a good signing but he should of bought a wide player or 2 and maybe a striker (Maynard) instead
Your welcome to support him, I did at first until he lost his verve and decided that the 451 system from when we qualfied for the Champions League was the only system to use and its simply outdated and hes unable or unwilling to be flexable and move us on to a more fluid system (this is why I want Poyet, hes proven himself to be able to get sub standard players at Brighton to play a good brand of football, imagine what he could do with the likes of Arteta, Barkley, Rodwell, Osman etc who are all technically good)
Well I and many people I know think this is a weak Premiership, the reason the smaller sides get one off results against the biggers sides is simply because the biggers sides are not really that great. Man Utd were poor champions last season, Chelsea were in disarray, Plastic City are just a joke club and Arsenal/Liverpool/Tottenham have many weaknesses.
I always use my brain thank you very much, I know football and I know Moyes brought badly with the Lescott money. We DIDN'T need Heitinga or Bilyaletdinov, Distin was a good signing but he should of bought a wide player or 2 and maybe a striker (Maynard) instead
Your welcome to support him, I did at first until he lost his verve and decided that the 451 system from when we qualfied for the Champions League was the only system to use and its simply outdated and hes unable or unwilling to be flexable and move us on to a more fluid system (this is why I want Poyet, hes proven himself to be able to get sub standard players at Brighton to play a good brand of football, imagine what he could do with the likes of Arteta, Barkley, Rodwell, Osman etc who are all technically good)
Dave Wilson
27 Posted 23/08/2011 at 18:26:57
27 Posted 23/08/2011 at 18:26:57
Ian
Bang on the money.
Its incredibly naive to suggest Rooney would be chasing lost balls if he was still at Everton. I Sometimes wonder what people actually watch.
Its taken SAF and successive England managers years too get him to stop chasing balls that were not his - they still havent entirely succeeded.
Its not the coaching, its the individuals desire to do it. Some players just have a greater desire to be involved.
I didnt go to the Villareal game I watched it on the box and Moyes could clearly be heard shouting to Saha to stop chasing down the wings. "Stay Center Forward" he shouted repeatedly.
Now this doesnt square with the "experts" on here who make the ridiculous claim that he "coaches ability out of players" anfd turns them into workhorses, but it was clear enough, all but the deaf would have heard him.
Nearly every player who has played for Moyes has enjoyed the best spell of his career
Supporters of other clubs love it when Rooney, or Tevez, or dirk Cunt, run down opponents, some of the people on here would rather see Beckfords pathetic first touch than a quality player prepared to sweat blood.
Moyes does not have a wand he cant instill natural ability into a player if it aint there, asking them to make up for it with effort is his job , is that really so difficult to grasp ?
Barkley has been handed a free role in most of the games he`s played, yet people are still whining - unbelievable
Theres only one thing more difficult than instilling natural ability into a player and thats to coach it out of a player who has an abundance . .its a ridiculous claim.
If you know anything about your team you will know that it the flair players who consistantly get voted player of the year, Its because people like Arteta , Pienaar and Baines were given the chance to experess themselves. If you`re waiting for Cahill, Neville, Beckford etc to express themselves no wonder you think the problem lies with the manager
Bang on the money.
Its incredibly naive to suggest Rooney would be chasing lost balls if he was still at Everton. I Sometimes wonder what people actually watch.
Its taken SAF and successive England managers years too get him to stop chasing balls that were not his - they still havent entirely succeeded.
Its not the coaching, its the individuals desire to do it. Some players just have a greater desire to be involved.
I didnt go to the Villareal game I watched it on the box and Moyes could clearly be heard shouting to Saha to stop chasing down the wings. "Stay Center Forward" he shouted repeatedly.
Now this doesnt square with the "experts" on here who make the ridiculous claim that he "coaches ability out of players" anfd turns them into workhorses, but it was clear enough, all but the deaf would have heard him.
Nearly every player who has played for Moyes has enjoyed the best spell of his career
Supporters of other clubs love it when Rooney, or Tevez, or dirk Cunt, run down opponents, some of the people on here would rather see Beckfords pathetic first touch than a quality player prepared to sweat blood.
Moyes does not have a wand he cant instill natural ability into a player if it aint there, asking them to make up for it with effort is his job , is that really so difficult to grasp ?
Barkley has been handed a free role in most of the games he`s played, yet people are still whining - unbelievable
Theres only one thing more difficult than instilling natural ability into a player and thats to coach it out of a player who has an abundance . .its a ridiculous claim.
If you know anything about your team you will know that it the flair players who consistantly get voted player of the year, Its because people like Arteta , Pienaar and Baines were given the chance to experess themselves. If you`re waiting for Cahill, Neville, Beckford etc to express themselves no wonder you think the problem lies with the manager
Dave Wilson
28 Posted 23/08/2011 at 19:42:57
28 Posted 23/08/2011 at 19:42:57
Mike
I think its you whos missing the point. Everton probably attack more than Man U, the problem is we attack with a blunt instrument, and it takes an eternity to get from one end to the other.
We have nowhere near their class, they sit back and hit people with rapid classic counter attacks, BUT to do that you need big bucks to buy the players who are good enough to do it.
Do you think Fergie would even contemplate playing this exciting counter attacking football if he had the pace of Cahill , Neville, Heitga, Osman, Anichebe, saha, Rodwell, Barkley to do it ? of course he wouldnt, only an idiot would.
Sure it can be argued these are Moyeses players but the lot of them cost less than one of Fergies fringe players.People like Berbatov or Valencia cost more than all those players I mentioned put together.
Fergie is a shithouse, he proved this when he left out millions of pounds worth of attacking talent and played eight defenders at home to Arsenal last season.
I Absolutely loved it when Pep took him to school
I think its you whos missing the point. Everton probably attack more than Man U, the problem is we attack with a blunt instrument, and it takes an eternity to get from one end to the other.
We have nowhere near their class, they sit back and hit people with rapid classic counter attacks, BUT to do that you need big bucks to buy the players who are good enough to do it.
Do you think Fergie would even contemplate playing this exciting counter attacking football if he had the pace of Cahill , Neville, Heitga, Osman, Anichebe, saha, Rodwell, Barkley to do it ? of course he wouldnt, only an idiot would.
Sure it can be argued these are Moyeses players but the lot of them cost less than one of Fergies fringe players.People like Berbatov or Valencia cost more than all those players I mentioned put together.
Fergie is a shithouse, he proved this when he left out millions of pounds worth of attacking talent and played eight defenders at home to Arsenal last season.
I Absolutely loved it when Pep took him to school
Ian Tunstead
29 Posted 23/08/2011 at 19:23:24
29 Posted 23/08/2011 at 19:23:24
Mike Moyes would encourage attacking football just as much as SAF if he had the attacking players SAF has at his disposal.
The fact is Moyes has to buy cheap up and coming defenders from the championship, has beens and failures from Spain and Germany. SAF can go out and buy the finished article for a specific position like a berbatov if he is short enough in that area or he can buy the best up and coming talent in the country or the world like a Young, Jones a smalling or little pea or the Spanish keeper. He can buy a player and a backup for every single position.
Moyes on the other hand has to buy a player knowing full well that he will probably have to play in 2 or 3 different positions because we have a small and injury prone squad. We will never know how Barkley will develop at Everton because the moment he gets an England call up he will sign for one of the Manchester clubs. If he doesn?t get an England call up he will end up like Rodwell as SAF will not consider him good enough.
The reason Man U have so many players in the box of the opposition is because they usually dominate possession and have players like Rooney who has the vision and awareness to split a defence or a giggs young or nani who can beat a man and create space and cross a ball on to Rooneys head for him to score, all have the pace and energy to attack and defend in numbers. If what you say is true why didn?t they have so many players in Barcelonas box if they are such an attacking side in the CL final? Because Barcelona have even better attacking players than Man Utd who are even better at keeping possession but they are also effective at the same time. ( Not just keeping possession for the sake of possession like Swansea who only pass backwards and sideway because they don?t have the players with the ability to move the ball forward, just like Rodwell.)
As for the gap between Everton and QPR, the gap was even bigger between Man Utd and West Ham a couple of seasons ago when they lost 1-0 and When Chelsea and Liverpool were knocked out the FA cup or the great results Wolves had against the big teams last season, it happens from time to time, that is football. 9 times out of 10 we would have beat QPR they had about one chance in the game caused by a Jaggs individual mistake, I bet 9 times out of 10 Tommy Smith would not have scored that chance either. Up the other end we hit the bar should have had 2 penalties and Cahill missed a couple of chances that he would normally put away. Add to that Beckford?s all round ability apart from shooting is that of a league 1 player and our 2 wingers were kids who were not actually wingers, a non-existent Osmen who in nearly 10 years has only been visible for 2 months last season , it?s unlikely we were ever going to have much of a goal threat.
The fact is Moyes has to buy cheap up and coming defenders from the championship, has beens and failures from Spain and Germany. SAF can go out and buy the finished article for a specific position like a berbatov if he is short enough in that area or he can buy the best up and coming talent in the country or the world like a Young, Jones a smalling or little pea or the Spanish keeper. He can buy a player and a backup for every single position.
Moyes on the other hand has to buy a player knowing full well that he will probably have to play in 2 or 3 different positions because we have a small and injury prone squad. We will never know how Barkley will develop at Everton because the moment he gets an England call up he will sign for one of the Manchester clubs. If he doesn?t get an England call up he will end up like Rodwell as SAF will not consider him good enough.
The reason Man U have so many players in the box of the opposition is because they usually dominate possession and have players like Rooney who has the vision and awareness to split a defence or a giggs young or nani who can beat a man and create space and cross a ball on to Rooneys head for him to score, all have the pace and energy to attack and defend in numbers. If what you say is true why didn?t they have so many players in Barcelonas box if they are such an attacking side in the CL final? Because Barcelona have even better attacking players than Man Utd who are even better at keeping possession but they are also effective at the same time. ( Not just keeping possession for the sake of possession like Swansea who only pass backwards and sideway because they don?t have the players with the ability to move the ball forward, just like Rodwell.)
As for the gap between Everton and QPR, the gap was even bigger between Man Utd and West Ham a couple of seasons ago when they lost 1-0 and When Chelsea and Liverpool were knocked out the FA cup or the great results Wolves had against the big teams last season, it happens from time to time, that is football. 9 times out of 10 we would have beat QPR they had about one chance in the game caused by a Jaggs individual mistake, I bet 9 times out of 10 Tommy Smith would not have scored that chance either. Up the other end we hit the bar should have had 2 penalties and Cahill missed a couple of chances that he would normally put away. Add to that Beckford?s all round ability apart from shooting is that of a league 1 player and our 2 wingers were kids who were not actually wingers, a non-existent Osmen who in nearly 10 years has only been visible for 2 months last season , it?s unlikely we were ever going to have much of a goal threat.
David Hallwood
30 Posted 23/08/2011 at 20:06:49
30 Posted 23/08/2011 at 20:06:49
I think the difference betwwen SAF & Moyes (apart from the zillion trophies of course!) is that Fergie is an attack minded coach whereas Moyes is very conservative, and it therefore reflects in how their teams play.
An example of this was Man U v Blackburn last season at Ewood, when they needed a point to win the prem and their away form had been awful. They went 1-0 up, now Moyes would've put an extra defender or defensive mid on and shut up shop, but Fergie put on an extra attacker to stretch Blackburn and of course won the point and the title. But he is a gambler and sometimes gamblers end up with egg on their faces.
IMHO that?s the difference between Man U youngsters and ours, they are told to go out and win the game rather than contain.
An example of this was Man U v Blackburn last season at Ewood, when they needed a point to win the prem and their away form had been awful. They went 1-0 up, now Moyes would've put an extra defender or defensive mid on and shut up shop, but Fergie put on an extra attacker to stretch Blackburn and of course won the point and the title. But he is a gambler and sometimes gamblers end up with egg on their faces.
IMHO that?s the difference between Man U youngsters and ours, they are told to go out and win the game rather than contain.
Dave Wilson
31 Posted 23/08/2011 at 20:45:11
31 Posted 23/08/2011 at 20:45:11
David
So which of our young players do you think has been told to "contain"
So which of our young players do you think has been told to "contain"
Mike Elbey
32 Posted 23/08/2011 at 21:39:40
32 Posted 23/08/2011 at 21:39:40
Ian,
I take on board what you say about the difference in the players Moyes can buy compared to the ones Ferguson can.
However I just do not believe Moyes would attack like Ferguson even if he had the money. He is a negative manager, full stop.
As a further example if Man U were 1-0 down to a shit team with a couple of minutes to go and the oppo got a corner would he a) bring all 10 outfield players back to defend the corner or b) leave 4 men on the half way line ready to move forward as quickly as possible once the corner was taken.
I think we all know the answer just as we know what Moyes did on Saturday.
You can talk about money, players etc as much as you want, the fact is Moyes is one negative twat.
I take on board what you say about the difference in the players Moyes can buy compared to the ones Ferguson can.
However I just do not believe Moyes would attack like Ferguson even if he had the money. He is a negative manager, full stop.
As a further example if Man U were 1-0 down to a shit team with a couple of minutes to go and the oppo got a corner would he a) bring all 10 outfield players back to defend the corner or b) leave 4 men on the half way line ready to move forward as quickly as possible once the corner was taken.
I think we all know the answer just as we know what Moyes did on Saturday.
You can talk about money, players etc as much as you want, the fact is Moyes is one negative twat.
Peter Fearon
33 Posted 23/08/2011 at 22:30:51
33 Posted 23/08/2011 at 22:30:51
Somehow Rochdale - League One last time I looked, which was a long time ago - managed to stuff QPR in the Carling Cup Tuesday.
You might ask how it is that they were able to do what Everton was unable to do. Do they have more investment over in the foothills of the Pennines? Do they have more co-operative bank managers? a richer chairman? Big ticket strikers? New signings from Italy or Spain?
No. They have fully committed players and a manager proposing aggressive tactics. That's how you win games.
I hope David Moyes gets a video.
Dick Fearon
34 Posted 23/08/2011 at 22:14:32
34 Posted 23/08/2011 at 22:14:32
Those coming coming on here to say the Yak was great up til his injury are wrong. Long before that his goals had dried up and most Twebbers were of the opinion he was slow and clumsy and couldn't or wouldn't work in an iron lung.
It also was general consensus Moyes included that he was much older than his given age. It would be totally incredible if Moyes has knocked back any kind of offer for him.
Dick Fearon
35 Posted 23/08/2011 at 22:36:04
35 Posted 23/08/2011 at 22:36:04
Ian # 28. You criticise Osman at your peril. Any more of that kind of stuff will have Dave Wilson on your case pronto, that is if he hasn't done so already.
Brendan McLaughlin
36 Posted 23/08/2011 at 22:53:35
36 Posted 23/08/2011 at 22:53:35
Peter #33
From the BBC..
."QPR made eight changes from the side that won at Goodison".
"Rochdale who have made a poor start to their campaign..."
"QPR dominated as they pressed for the equaliser but it was Rochdale who struck the telling blow"
But what the hell...don't let the facts get in the way of a cheap, inaccurate jibe at Moyes!
Of course perhaps you were there and the BBC reporter called it all wrong?
From the BBC..
."QPR made eight changes from the side that won at Goodison".
"Rochdale who have made a poor start to their campaign..."
"QPR dominated as they pressed for the equaliser but it was Rochdale who struck the telling blow"
But what the hell...don't let the facts get in the way of a cheap, inaccurate jibe at Moyes!
Of course perhaps you were there and the BBC reporter called it all wrong?
Brendan McLaughlin
37 Posted 23/08/2011 at 23:13:42
37 Posted 23/08/2011 at 23:13:42
Peter #33
I forgot to add after four games Rochdale are in the relegation zone with two points. Nail on the head..we really need to learn from these guys!!
I forgot to add after four games Rochdale are in the relegation zone with two points. Nail on the head..we really need to learn from these guys!!
Ian Tunstead
38 Posted 23/08/2011 at 23:24:56
38 Posted 23/08/2011 at 23:24:56
Thanks for the warning, Dick. I hope not because Dave talks a lot of sense, but I suppose we can't all agree on everything.
Same with Mike and I, we will just have to agree to disagree. We will never know how Moyes would set his team up if he had the Man Utd players at his disposal. Then again, if you believe the rumours we might find out when Fergie decides to call it a day.
Darren Corless
39 Posted 23/08/2011 at 23:37:15
39 Posted 23/08/2011 at 23:37:15
Ian, you are a sheep and all your comments are based on "This is the way it is and things can't be any better."
Too many blues are scared of change. they're like South American Indians hiding in forests in their undies terrified that, if the witch doctor dies, the sun will go black. How does anybody know that we would be in the Vauxhall Conference now if it wasn't for Moyes?
Don't want to particually get on his back but there are big flaws that some blues refuse to see.
Dave Wilson
40 Posted 23/08/2011 at 23:39:38
40 Posted 23/08/2011 at 23:39:38
Dick
I have no problem at all with people criticising Ossie. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Its the hate filled poison you have directed at him for years that bothers me.
I have no problem at all with people criticising Ossie. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Its the hate filled poison you have directed at him for years that bothers me.
Denis Richardson
41 Posted 24/08/2011 at 00:13:48
41 Posted 24/08/2011 at 00:13:48
Persoinally, having read down this whole thread, one decent suggestion someone made was for maybe trying Baines on the wing. Neville has played left back before and we have absolutely no one who can play there with Gueye out (that includes billy).
maybe worth a try against sheffield?
would may try a midfield of Baines, Fellaini (DM), Osie (AM) Arteta. Stick JH at CB (to actually see if we can pass it out from the back) and sell Jags to Arsenal and give half the money to the bank - use the rest for a striker and winger.
maybe worth a try against sheffield?
would may try a midfield of Baines, Fellaini (DM), Osie (AM) Arteta. Stick JH at CB (to actually see if we can pass it out from the back) and sell Jags to Arsenal and give half the money to the bank - use the rest for a striker and winger.
Roman Sidey
42 Posted 24/08/2011 at 02:43:36
42 Posted 24/08/2011 at 02:43:36
For once I (very, very somewhat) agree with David Moyes. People really need to pull their tongues out of Barkley's arse. Yes, he looked good on Saturday (in comparison to the rest of the squad anyway).
Yes, senior players have been talking him up. But, really, in this thread alone he's pretty much being compared to Rooney. Fark.
What we could take out of the QPR game in regards to youth is from watching Rodwell. For the last two years he has been "the next big thing". Well, if by that people mean, the next Anichebe, then, on Saturday at Goodison Park, he really lived up to the hype.
Ian, your point about Moyes finishing above that list of managers in #25 fails to point out the staggering difference in teams that each of them is in charge of. I will assume that you think that Everton's starting 11 has much better players than those that Di Matteo, Holloway, etc were managing. Moyes should have finished above them anyway. The point I want to make though is this, what did David Moyes do to get the Everton job? Tell me what he had ever achieved in his managerial career to be good enough to get the job managing Everton?
Yes, senior players have been talking him up. But, really, in this thread alone he's pretty much being compared to Rooney. Fark.
What we could take out of the QPR game in regards to youth is from watching Rodwell. For the last two years he has been "the next big thing". Well, if by that people mean, the next Anichebe, then, on Saturday at Goodison Park, he really lived up to the hype.
Ian, your point about Moyes finishing above that list of managers in #25 fails to point out the staggering difference in teams that each of them is in charge of. I will assume that you think that Everton's starting 11 has much better players than those that Di Matteo, Holloway, etc were managing. Moyes should have finished above them anyway. The point I want to make though is this, what did David Moyes do to get the Everton job? Tell me what he had ever achieved in his managerial career to be good enough to get the job managing Everton?
Jamie Sweet
43 Posted 24/08/2011 at 05:40:07
43 Posted 24/08/2011 at 05:40:07
My opinion:
Moyes has gone stale.
His tactics are completely one dimensional.
We play a boring brand of football.
We lack pace all over the park.
How many wide players with pace and/or flair has Moyes signed in ten years?
Has he ever looked like wanting to change his style of play?
Time for a change people.
Moyes has gone stale.
His tactics are completely one dimensional.
We play a boring brand of football.
We lack pace all over the park.
How many wide players with pace and/or flair has Moyes signed in ten years?
Has he ever looked like wanting to change his style of play?
Time for a change people.
Eugene Ruane
44 Posted 24/08/2011 at 07:58:36
44 Posted 24/08/2011 at 07:58:36
Darren Corless (39) - You say..
"Too many blues are scared of change. they're like South American Indians hiding in forests in their undies terrified that, if the witch doctor dies, the sun will go black".
I'm not 100% sure about the comparison, however your choice of the word 'undies' made me laugh out loud.
Appreciated.
"Too many blues are scared of change. they're like South American Indians hiding in forests in their undies terrified that, if the witch doctor dies, the sun will go black".
I'm not 100% sure about the comparison, however your choice of the word 'undies' made me laugh out loud.
Appreciated.
John Ford
45 Posted 24/08/2011 at 09:37:58
45 Posted 24/08/2011 at 09:37:58
Ian@29 is right. Whatever you think of Moyes tactics he's worked the team to the point were we consistently finish above all but the money clubs. Break it down to individual games or particular decisions and its always easy to criticise someone, with Moyes some of this is fair comment. The key point is his returns are better than any comparable team.
This idea that a particular way of playing is 'out of date' seems to be the latest jump on phrase. This is complete nonesense. The only teams who play expansively are, like M Utd, those who have the very best players to do so. Anyone else who tries this risks being found out - like Bolton Sunderland Wesrt Ham and Blackpool last season. It rarely works over a season, and Moyes knows this. Comparisons with M Utd are pointless, they operate in a different world to us.
This idea that a particular way of playing is 'out of date' seems to be the latest jump on phrase. This is complete nonesense. The only teams who play expansively are, like M Utd, those who have the very best players to do so. Anyone else who tries this risks being found out - like Bolton Sunderland Wesrt Ham and Blackpool last season. It rarely works over a season, and Moyes knows this. Comparisons with M Utd are pointless, they operate in a different world to us.
Ian Tunstead
46 Posted 24/08/2011 at 10:24:32
46 Posted 24/08/2011 at 10:24:32
Roman, Moyes took over an Everton side that was just as poor if not worse than Blackpool and West Brom and then took them to 4th and following that had everton finishing consitantly 5th 6th untill Man City spent their millions and Spurs spent their CL money. Moyes has created a team that can compete in the Premeire League, the others have not.
Chris Rudd
47 Posted 24/08/2011 at 10:13:40
47 Posted 24/08/2011 at 10:13:40
John 45
It's not a case of comparing us to United. That was simply an example of how football can be played. Even if you're coaching a kids' team you don't use Stoke as the blueprint. Too many of you have given up.
Likewise it's not a case of a system being "out of date" but of being sussed by everyone else. Things are constantly evolving - or they should be.
I've said many times on here that Moyes did a great job over the first 6 or 7 years of his tenure so I'm not buying in to this polarised view of him. It's not all black or all white.
I simply refuse to believe that money is the only way to improve on a crap start every season - 3 points from the first 6 games last season for god's sake! Or to improve on our constant failings in cup matches against lower league opposition.
How have we gone from having "the strongest squad in the last 20 years" and being able to push the top four to not being "assured of a top ten place" in our esteemed leader's opinion, with only Pienaar, of any note, departed?
In my view, and to quote Ian...that is "bollocks!"
Get a smile back on your face Moyes. Start looking as though you're proud to have this job that the rest of us would give our right arm for and let's get this season, belatedly, started.
Adapt or die Everton.
It's not a case of comparing us to United. That was simply an example of how football can be played. Even if you're coaching a kids' team you don't use Stoke as the blueprint. Too many of you have given up.
Likewise it's not a case of a system being "out of date" but of being sussed by everyone else. Things are constantly evolving - or they should be.
I've said many times on here that Moyes did a great job over the first 6 or 7 years of his tenure so I'm not buying in to this polarised view of him. It's not all black or all white.
I simply refuse to believe that money is the only way to improve on a crap start every season - 3 points from the first 6 games last season for god's sake! Or to improve on our constant failings in cup matches against lower league opposition.
How have we gone from having "the strongest squad in the last 20 years" and being able to push the top four to not being "assured of a top ten place" in our esteemed leader's opinion, with only Pienaar, of any note, departed?
In my view, and to quote Ian...that is "bollocks!"
Get a smile back on your face Moyes. Start looking as though you're proud to have this job that the rest of us would give our right arm for and let's get this season, belatedly, started.
Adapt or die Everton.
Robbie Shields
48 Posted 24/08/2011 at 10:49:33
48 Posted 24/08/2011 at 10:49:33
Dave #28,
"Everton probably attack more than Man U"
if you seriously believe that then you must surely have lost any credibility you had on here. As you know, as an expat I get up in the early hours to watch the match, against the mighty QPR at home we had 50% of the possession, I'll have a bet with you now that QPR don't get 50% of the possession at Old Trafford.
Also, I have seen 2 lots of 2 hour training sessions when the Blues were over in Australia, Moyes never once worked on team formations, player positions, shape or tactics.
As for Ross Barkeley, Moyes will soon knock the exuberance of youth out of him don't you fret, a good spell on the sidelines will teach that little fecker who knows the most about this football lark.
Moyes out!
"Everton probably attack more than Man U"
if you seriously believe that then you must surely have lost any credibility you had on here. As you know, as an expat I get up in the early hours to watch the match, against the mighty QPR at home we had 50% of the possession, I'll have a bet with you now that QPR don't get 50% of the possession at Old Trafford.
Also, I have seen 2 lots of 2 hour training sessions when the Blues were over in Australia, Moyes never once worked on team formations, player positions, shape or tactics.
As for Ross Barkeley, Moyes will soon knock the exuberance of youth out of him don't you fret, a good spell on the sidelines will teach that little fecker who knows the most about this football lark.
Moyes out!
Michael Kelly
49 Posted 24/08/2011 at 13:16:10
49 Posted 24/08/2011 at 13:16:10
Moyes's tactics haven't improved over the seasons, he is a nearly man in terms of success through his methods. In two of his most crucial games of his era he was found wanting.
January 2008 at Chelsea in a League Cup semi, score at 1-1, Everton in the ascendancy, the whole team [on his orders] drops back to defend the penalty box and concede a crucial second goal [this against 10 men!].
May 2009 at Wembley in the FA Cup Final, leading 1-0 in first minute, the team defend en masse again, Chelsea's continual attacks on the Hibbert and Osman flank lead to a crucial equiliser, Jacobsen should have been on earlier instead of a half time; damage done; ascendancy then with Chelsea.
The man just cannot see things early enough! If we would have won one of these games (particually the final), then doubters like myself would have been silenced.
Peter Fearon
50 Posted 24/08/2011 at 14:27:26
50 Posted 24/08/2011 at 14:27:26
Brendan. Let me put this is much simpler terms for you. We lost to QPR a week after Bolton gave them an object lesson in Premiership football, as most Premiership teams probably will this season. Rochdale beat QPR three days after QPR gave us a lesson in making the most of limited scoring chances. That is not something for us to be proud of. The point was that it's not the chairman, lack on investment, an old stadium or any of the other knee-jerk nonsense applied by Moyes' diminishing band of robotic apologists. It's about getting the best you can out of the players you've got, which is not what he is doing. The fact that Rochdale did not dominate the game it utterly irrelevant. The fact that they won is.
Ian Tunstead
51 Posted 24/08/2011 at 14:33:40
51 Posted 24/08/2011 at 14:33:40
It's like pissing against the wind trying to explain football to some of you on here. It's not rocket science, it's very simple,why people feel the need to over complicate things with 'team formations, player positions, shape or tactics' i'll never know. They are over rated
Maybe all the Champ manager and FIFA football computer games have gone to your head. This is not a computer game, but all the managers in real life that do the job on a daily basis rate Moyes very highly because most have failed to finish above him unless they have spent more than him and because they have all tried tinkering with their 'team formations, player positions, shape or tactics' and all have had little success. Having the money to buy the best players is the most important thing in the modern game.
Chris the reason we are not "assured of a top ten place" is because the teams below us have all improved. It is also very obvious he is changing his approach from setting high expectations which clearly didnt work to lowering expectations like he did the season we finished 4th. Come on switch on. Think before you write.
Maybe all the Champ manager and FIFA football computer games have gone to your head. This is not a computer game, but all the managers in real life that do the job on a daily basis rate Moyes very highly because most have failed to finish above him unless they have spent more than him and because they have all tried tinkering with their 'team formations, player positions, shape or tactics' and all have had little success. Having the money to buy the best players is the most important thing in the modern game.
Chris the reason we are not "assured of a top ten place" is because the teams below us have all improved. It is also very obvious he is changing his approach from setting high expectations which clearly didnt work to lowering expectations like he did the season we finished 4th. Come on switch on. Think before you write.
Gavin Ramejkis
52 Posted 24/08/2011 at 14:46:14
52 Posted 24/08/2011 at 14:46:14
John 45# my gripe over Moyes' gameplan is that there's only one flavour, he seldom if ever does anything differnt and if he does it's to try to get a point back from going a goal or two down. Far too often you can name the teamsheet and tactics weeks in advance, you could guess the subs and even timing of them within a few minutes.
Compare that to other teams and you'll see different formations on a horses for courses basis and the truly great teams will be able to change formation during a single game.
Don't try the lack of money reply now as Moyes has done this for years even when he's had money to spend.
Compare that to other teams and you'll see different formations on a horses for courses basis and the truly great teams will be able to change formation during a single game.
Don't try the lack of money reply now as Moyes has done this for years even when he's had money to spend.
Dave Wilson
53 Posted 24/08/2011 at 14:13:08
53 Posted 24/08/2011 at 14:13:08
Robbie Sheilds
the one thing guarenteed to lose credibility is to take one line out of a statement in order to distort it. (anyone can scroll back scroll back)
Man U very often lay in wait and absolutely kill teams with counter attacks that can take them from one end of the field to another in seconds. Everton can take minutes to get to the same same area.
Quality and quantity lad, try to understand the difference.
Talking of credibility, I think yours was shattered when you claimed Moyes would be sacked by November.
Even if Kenwright didnt think the sun shone out of Moyes`s arse it would cost 6 milion to get rid of him and probably another 9 on top get somebody else in.
15 Million quid to get rid of the most sort after manager in the league ?
Yeah thats gonna happen.Moyes will leave when he`s good and ready.
You may wanna give your next post a little thought Robbie
the one thing guarenteed to lose credibility is to take one line out of a statement in order to distort it. (anyone can scroll back scroll back)
Man U very often lay in wait and absolutely kill teams with counter attacks that can take them from one end of the field to another in seconds. Everton can take minutes to get to the same same area.
Quality and quantity lad, try to understand the difference.
Talking of credibility, I think yours was shattered when you claimed Moyes would be sacked by November.
Even if Kenwright didnt think the sun shone out of Moyes`s arse it would cost 6 milion to get rid of him and probably another 9 on top get somebody else in.
15 Million quid to get rid of the most sort after manager in the league ?
Yeah thats gonna happen.Moyes will leave when he`s good and ready.
You may wanna give your next post a little thought Robbie
Dan Brierley
54 Posted 24/08/2011 at 18:14:04
54 Posted 24/08/2011 at 18:14:04
Gav, lets see how accurate you are then. Please predict the starting 11 against Blackburn on Saturday, the tactics, who the subs will be and when they will come on. I think your talking shite personally, so take this opportunity to prove me completely wrong....
Robbie Shields
55 Posted 24/08/2011 at 22:24:50
55 Posted 24/08/2011 at 22:24:50
Ian#50 "It's like pissing against the wind trying to explain football to some of you on here. It's not rocket science, it's very simple,why people feel the need to over complicate things with 'team formations, player positions, shape or tactics' i'll never know. They are over rated"
WTF????????
There is simply nothing more I can say, the apologists have every angle covered. So, bynthat logic we don't need Moyes as Manager on 4.5 million or whatever a year, instead we should invest that in players.
The apologists on here are beyond the joke.
Moyes out!
WTF????????
There is simply nothing more I can say, the apologists have every angle covered. So, bynthat logic we don't need Moyes as Manager on 4.5 million or whatever a year, instead we should invest that in players.
The apologists on here are beyond the joke.
Moyes out!
Roman Sidey
56 Posted 24/08/2011 at 22:47:27
56 Posted 24/08/2011 at 22:47:27
Ian, you missed my point about what Moyes did to deserve the Everton job. He did SFA with PNE before he was offered the Everton job - a lot less than the likes of Holloway. The squad Moyes eventually leaves to the next manager is going to be very similar to the one he inherited if he doesn't sort himself out soon.
Ian Tunstead
57 Posted 25/08/2011 at 00:08:35
57 Posted 25/08/2011 at 00:08:35
Roman i can't comment on what Moyes did with PNE, in all honesty don't pay too much attention to the Championship. I can only comment on what i have seen of him in the Premiere league over the last 10 years and the other managers in that time who have tried and failed to compete with the big spenders in the league and Moyes.
Robbie i will explain in a little more detail just for you to help you understand a bit about the simplicity and relevance of 'team formations, player positions, shape or tactics' . It's a bit of a secret so don't go telling Poyet, Lambert Di Matteo and Matinez et al. There are 3 golden rules.
1) Play you best players.
2) Play your best players in their best positions.
3) Keep the balance to the side by following rule 1 and 2.
But all this is worth fuck all if for rule 1) your best players are a) injured and b) coming back from injury and not match fit.
2) you can't play your best players in their best positions because you dont have players to play in their best positions in the first place. ie you have no wingers, because......you guessed it we no money. Which means rule 3 is out the window as well.
The reason Moyes is paid so highly is the respect he commands from his players and his peers which means he tends to get more out of his players than other teams because they want to play for him and win for him. Also his eye for spotting the right players with talent but also the right attitude to build a team from.
Robbie i will explain in a little more detail just for you to help you understand a bit about the simplicity and relevance of 'team formations, player positions, shape or tactics' . It's a bit of a secret so don't go telling Poyet, Lambert Di Matteo and Matinez et al. There are 3 golden rules.
1) Play you best players.
2) Play your best players in their best positions.
3) Keep the balance to the side by following rule 1 and 2.
But all this is worth fuck all if for rule 1) your best players are a) injured and b) coming back from injury and not match fit.
2) you can't play your best players in their best positions because you dont have players to play in their best positions in the first place. ie you have no wingers, because......you guessed it we no money. Which means rule 3 is out the window as well.
The reason Moyes is paid so highly is the respect he commands from his players and his peers which means he tends to get more out of his players than other teams because they want to play for him and win for him. Also his eye for spotting the right players with talent but also the right attitude to build a team from.
Roman Sidey
58 Posted 25/08/2011 at 01:44:49
58 Posted 25/08/2011 at 01:44:49
Ian, Moyes breaks all three of those rules.
Moyes was basically a fresh manager with (next to) no experience in management. What's to say someone else that has little experience or success isn't going to "acheive" what Moyes has?
Moyes was basically a fresh manager with (next to) no experience in management. What's to say someone else that has little experience or success isn't going to "acheive" what Moyes has?
Chris Rudd
59 Posted 25/08/2011 at 08:51:05
59 Posted 25/08/2011 at 08:51:05
Ian - a final note from me, because you clearly can't write a reply without being insulting or saying "bollocks" to everyone
"Maybe all the Champ manager and FIFA football computer games have gone to your head. This is not a computer game"
FYI - I've never played on either of these or any other football computer games. I've just played football at a decent amateur level for 40 years and if managers shouldn't be "complicating things with 'team formations, player positions, shape or tactics" perhaps we should just be employing a motivational speaker rather than a football manager.
And incidentally, your claim that we have no wingers... whose fault would that be then? The man who keeps buying central midfielders and utility players perhaps.
As I said before, I'm not anti - Moyes, I just wish he'd be more adaptable. Perhaps, as you clearly have his ear and know his every thought, you could pass on my comments!
"Maybe all the Champ manager and FIFA football computer games have gone to your head. This is not a computer game"
FYI - I've never played on either of these or any other football computer games. I've just played football at a decent amateur level for 40 years and if managers shouldn't be "complicating things with 'team formations, player positions, shape or tactics" perhaps we should just be employing a motivational speaker rather than a football manager.
And incidentally, your claim that we have no wingers... whose fault would that be then? The man who keeps buying central midfielders and utility players perhaps.
As I said before, I'm not anti - Moyes, I just wish he'd be more adaptable. Perhaps, as you clearly have his ear and know his every thought, you could pass on my comments!
James Boden
60 Posted 25/08/2011 at 10:29:44
60 Posted 25/08/2011 at 10:29:44
Did I read that correctly? Another case of Dave Wilson trying to defend Moyes by slating SAF? Obviously Mr Wilson has forgotten about the last 30 years of Ferguson's managing career.
Chris Rudd
61 Posted 25/08/2011 at 10:41:52
61 Posted 25/08/2011 at 10:41:52
Oh and Ian..."the reason we are not "assured of a top ten place" is because the teams below us have all improved."
Really? Newcastle, Wigan, Villa, Sunderland, Blackburn, Fulham, Bolton have all improved - what, by selling or giving away their best players?
None of these look stronger to me.
Really? Newcastle, Wigan, Villa, Sunderland, Blackburn, Fulham, Bolton have all improved - what, by selling or giving away their best players?
None of these look stronger to me.
Dave Wilson
62 Posted 25/08/2011 at 11:06:16
62 Posted 25/08/2011 at 11:06:16
James Boden
Defending Moyes and criticising Fergie are two different things.
I dont subscribe to all this Fergie worshipping. it makes me feel a little sick, Its far easier to make a silk purse when the finest silk is made available to you.
Defending Moyes and criticising Fergie are two different things.
I dont subscribe to all this Fergie worshipping. it makes me feel a little sick, Its far easier to make a silk purse when the finest silk is made available to you.
Ian Tunstead
63 Posted 25/08/2011 at 11:57:03
63 Posted 25/08/2011 at 11:57:03
Chris i feel like i am repeating myself every week on here to explain things that just seem so obvious to me that people dont seem to be able to grasp, maybe you are sensing that in my resposes on this post. But i will now repeat myself again for Roman.
Roman, i know Moyes breaks all of those rules. As i said, all those rule go out the window if you can't afford to go out and buy a winger and have to play 2 central midfielders on the wing. If you have a small squad with some injury prone players because you have no money, what can he do?
Chris i will repeat my self for you now;
' And incidentally, your claim that we have no wingers... whose fault would that be then? The man who keeps buying central midfielders and utility players perhaps.'
It's cleary not Moyes fault; Moyes brought Donovan in on loan but couldnt afford him, he lost Piennar because Spurs offered more money, he wanted to bring in Nzogbia, but had no money.
He cant have the mind set of the teams with money. He cant go out and buy the best player in a spcific position because we wont have the money. He has to buy the best player he can at the cheapest possible price on the lowest possible wage and if possible be able to play in as many different possitions as possible.
Unfortunatley, pacey skillfull wingers who can cross a ball tend to cost more than his budget so he will buy the next best thing; a central midfielder who has one or 2 of those qualities/attributes like a Piennar and Arteta or a bily who either has a bit of pace to beat a man, or a bit of skill to beat a man or someone who can cross a ball well to create a chance.
I hope this answers your questions and i dont have to repeat it again for you.
Roman, i know Moyes breaks all of those rules. As i said, all those rule go out the window if you can't afford to go out and buy a winger and have to play 2 central midfielders on the wing. If you have a small squad with some injury prone players because you have no money, what can he do?
Chris i will repeat my self for you now;
' And incidentally, your claim that we have no wingers... whose fault would that be then? The man who keeps buying central midfielders and utility players perhaps.'
It's cleary not Moyes fault; Moyes brought Donovan in on loan but couldnt afford him, he lost Piennar because Spurs offered more money, he wanted to bring in Nzogbia, but had no money.
He cant have the mind set of the teams with money. He cant go out and buy the best player in a spcific position because we wont have the money. He has to buy the best player he can at the cheapest possible price on the lowest possible wage and if possible be able to play in as many different possitions as possible.
Unfortunatley, pacey skillfull wingers who can cross a ball tend to cost more than his budget so he will buy the next best thing; a central midfielder who has one or 2 of those qualities/attributes like a Piennar and Arteta or a bily who either has a bit of pace to beat a man, or a bit of skill to beat a man or someone who can cross a ball well to create a chance.
I hope this answers your questions and i dont have to repeat it again for you.
Ian Tunstead
64 Posted 25/08/2011 at 12:29:44
64 Posted 25/08/2011 at 12:29:44
Sorry Roman, i missed your question
'What's to say someone else that has little experience or success isn't going to "acheive" what Moyes has? '
Ten years of History says so, no up and coming manager has finished abouve Moyes that we could afford. Maybe there is someone out there, but i would say the chances are slim.
Sorry Chris i missed your final question. You are right some of those teams like Villa have lost a lot of key players and have not improved, some like Sunderland have lost key players like Bent but they have brought many more in, i think overall they have improved as have Bolton and Stoke in my opinion. But at risk of repeating myself, Moyes said we might not finish in the top 10 to lower expectations to change the mind set of the players and hopefully get a different response from them this season.
'What's to say someone else that has little experience or success isn't going to "acheive" what Moyes has? '
Ten years of History says so, no up and coming manager has finished abouve Moyes that we could afford. Maybe there is someone out there, but i would say the chances are slim.
Sorry Chris i missed your final question. You are right some of those teams like Villa have lost a lot of key players and have not improved, some like Sunderland have lost key players like Bent but they have brought many more in, i think overall they have improved as have Bolton and Stoke in my opinion. But at risk of repeating myself, Moyes said we might not finish in the top 10 to lower expectations to change the mind set of the players and hopefully get a different response from them this season.
Chris Rudd
65 Posted 25/08/2011 at 13:53:13
65 Posted 25/08/2011 at 13:53:13
Did you go to 'Patronising School' Ian or is it your natural bent?
Moyes bought Bily, who although is not without merit in my opinion, will never be a winger as long as I have a hole in my...you know the rest.
At the same time he also bought Heitinga who is a centre half who he likes to play in central midfield where we're already overpopulated.
To me, that's neither making the most of the money you're given or making the best of the players you have available.
We'll have to disagree about Sunderland too. I think they've replaced good players with ordinary ones. I studiously omitted Stoke as I think they are stronger.
Anyway, you're clearly of the opinion Moyes can do no wrong so you probably think bringing Neville on last night was a masterstroke whereas I think it was a complete waste of time and simply moved us backwards. I'd rather have seen Velios given some game time and before you get smart I am aware they play in different positions.
Anyway, they say football is a game of opinions and I guess they're not wrong.
Moyes bought Bily, who although is not without merit in my opinion, will never be a winger as long as I have a hole in my...you know the rest.
At the same time he also bought Heitinga who is a centre half who he likes to play in central midfield where we're already overpopulated.
To me, that's neither making the most of the money you're given or making the best of the players you have available.
We'll have to disagree about Sunderland too. I think they've replaced good players with ordinary ones. I studiously omitted Stoke as I think they are stronger.
Anyway, you're clearly of the opinion Moyes can do no wrong so you probably think bringing Neville on last night was a masterstroke whereas I think it was a complete waste of time and simply moved us backwards. I'd rather have seen Velios given some game time and before you get smart I am aware they play in different positions.
Anyway, they say football is a game of opinions and I guess they're not wrong.
Ian Tunstead
66 Posted 25/08/2011 at 14:15:53
66 Posted 25/08/2011 at 14:15:53
Chris I don't think Moyes can do no wrong. I agree with you about Neville. I actually said to my mate at the game "What is Moyes doing bringing Neville on, what is the point?" I thought he should have brought James Wallace on for Heitinga.
As for Heitinga, I don't think he was a bad buy. Moyes has been looking for a replacement for Carsley for some time. He tried Jags there to begin with but wasn't up to it, Rodwell was a CB coming through and so wasn't classed as a midfielder at the time. It was also a well known issue that we struggled from set pieces at the time because our small midfield if you remeber got called the 'midget gems' on here which is part of the reason Baines couldn't get in the side, that and Lescott's great form at LB.
So Fellaini was brought in because he had height which was badly needed and he could potentially fill the gap made by Carsley, but he wasn't up to it in his first season so why not kill two birds with one stone and bring in a player to play the Carsley role who could break up opposition attacks and also be back up CB to Jaggs and Distin. Ok, it didn't go completely to plan, but surley you can see there is reasoning behind it.
I also think Moyes would prefer to play him at CB but he thinks Jaggs and Distin are a better option at the back as Heitinga is better in midfield than Jaggs and Rodwell. So maybe that is a big decision for him to make. It looks as though he needs to make the decision to drop either Heitinga, Cahill or Rodwell which he needs to to do for the balance of the team once Colemen returns.
As for Heitinga, I don't think he was a bad buy. Moyes has been looking for a replacement for Carsley for some time. He tried Jags there to begin with but wasn't up to it, Rodwell was a CB coming through and so wasn't classed as a midfielder at the time. It was also a well known issue that we struggled from set pieces at the time because our small midfield if you remeber got called the 'midget gems' on here which is part of the reason Baines couldn't get in the side, that and Lescott's great form at LB.
So Fellaini was brought in because he had height which was badly needed and he could potentially fill the gap made by Carsley, but he wasn't up to it in his first season so why not kill two birds with one stone and bring in a player to play the Carsley role who could break up opposition attacks and also be back up CB to Jaggs and Distin. Ok, it didn't go completely to plan, but surley you can see there is reasoning behind it.
I also think Moyes would prefer to play him at CB but he thinks Jaggs and Distin are a better option at the back as Heitinga is better in midfield than Jaggs and Rodwell. So maybe that is a big decision for him to make. It looks as though he needs to make the decision to drop either Heitinga, Cahill or Rodwell which he needs to to do for the balance of the team once Colemen returns.
James Boden
67 Posted 25/08/2011 at 16:27:49
67 Posted 25/08/2011 at 16:27:49
Dave Wilson when Moyes was being criticised earlier you used it as an excuse to take a swipe at Alex Ferguson yes or no?
Admittedly if you want to attack the man based on his conduct as a human being by all means as quite frankly I can't stand the bloke either.
However as a football manager his record speaks volumes. And not just at Man United either.
Remember his Aberdeen days? Or have you forgotten them?
It's not the first time that you have questioned his management skills.
What was so fantastic about PEP outdoing Ferguson?
Yes I enjoyed it as it was breathtaking football and hate Man United but of course the 'tactically inept' Sir alex couldn't overcome a style of football not seen since the Great Ajax of the early 70s.
I do recall however Ferguson managing the poorest Man United side in 20 years to their record title.
Not bad for a 'shithouse'.
P.S. I do agree with the shithouse statement if you were actually referring to his backing down to the Glazers.
Admittedly if you want to attack the man based on his conduct as a human being by all means as quite frankly I can't stand the bloke either.
However as a football manager his record speaks volumes. And not just at Man United either.
Remember his Aberdeen days? Or have you forgotten them?
It's not the first time that you have questioned his management skills.
What was so fantastic about PEP outdoing Ferguson?
Yes I enjoyed it as it was breathtaking football and hate Man United but of course the 'tactically inept' Sir alex couldn't overcome a style of football not seen since the Great Ajax of the early 70s.
I do recall however Ferguson managing the poorest Man United side in 20 years to their record title.
Not bad for a 'shithouse'.
P.S. I do agree with the shithouse statement if you were actually referring to his backing down to the Glazers.
Dave Wilson
68 Posted 25/08/2011 at 19:19:04
68 Posted 25/08/2011 at 19:19:04
James Boden
Read the OP lad. Man U nited were part of the conversation long before I came into it.
Not interested in Fergie worship, I`ve given my opinion on him
Read the OP lad. Man U nited were part of the conversation long before I came into it.
Not interested in Fergie worship, I`ve given my opinion on him
Roman Sidey
69 Posted 27/08/2011 at 02:03:26
69 Posted 27/08/2011 at 02:03:26
Dave, not trying to lament, and I do think that this being an Everton website, too much chat on other teams clouds a lot of judgement, but:
Do you seriously think SAF isn't as good as most people think he is?
Do you seriously think SAF isn't as good as most people think he is?
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1 Posted 23/08/2011 at 12:16:40
When a young novice in Barkley can steal the plaudits from our experienced players by showing "freedom" in his style of play, then this only goes to highlight it.
It bothers me that David "show us your coaching badges" Moyes will start to try to negate his style and put him centre half or something!