Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Where's the Everton Twitter/Legend Backlash?
By Rob Teo :: 29/08/2011
50 Comments (»Last)
Just read an article at the ESPN Soccernet site: Seaman: This is not good enough, about the backlash surrounding Arsenal's 8-2 capitulation to Man Utd, and it's got me wondering: Where's our "legends" and/or Twitter backlash?
I mean, we've been in the pits for quite some time now, and every comment that is highlighted in that article about Wenger and Arsenal could be applied to Moyes and Everton - except, in our case, that it's been far longer since we last won anything, that the team Moyes puts out almost always lacks a Plan B, that there's been countless occasions where "shocking" is the only apt epithet to describe our play, and where a League Two team could put our team to shame, and that the situation surrounding Everton has for a long time now simply been "not good enough". (You may have to read the article first to get all the references I'm making.)
Considering how long we've had to put up with the crap that masquerades as football from Moyes and the team, why is it that none of the high profile names associated with the club has come out to speak out against them? I mean, we had our own capitulation to Arsenal two seasons back (and, again, in the season when we finished 4th). Yet, I don't recall any ex-Everton player/pundit (Snodin, Cottee, Kendall, Nevin, Ratcliffe, etc) criticise Moyes to the same extent as what the ex-Arsenal players have done with Wenger? Why is that so?
Granted, while there hasn't been any 6-1 or 7-0 capitulations suffered by Everton for two seasons now, the football that's been dished out has continued to be dire at times, and some of the performances by the team have been nothing less than humiliating and shameful (yup, shameful ? even if, like our recent win at Blackburn, the scoreline may not reflect it). I mean, if I were the great Dixie, I'd be wondering (maybe not always, but often enough, I reckon) how some of the current Everton players deserve to wear our Royal Blue jersey.
So, my question is: why is it that no former Everton player or director has come out to criticise the current regime, even though, if I'm being honest and in light of the comparisons I made in the second para, Moyes and the team probably deserve the criticisms more than Wenger and his team? Is it because they've been co-opted? Or is it because we, as a club, simply don't do this sort of thing (in which case, I think it's daft, especially as if Lady Bracewell-Smith was prepared to voice her disapproval on Twitter, I don't see how anyone might be able to claim that it's "beneath" us as Evertonians)?
On a side note, if anyone out there had agreed with our Captain Pip and how he implied that true Everton fans would not criticise the club no matter what, the criticism currently levied against Wenger and the team FROM former Arsenal players and directors should surely convince them that it is not only OK to criticise your team, but it's NECESSARY to do so when the situation is dire.
As such, perhaps it's time we as fans started being more vocal on players' Twitter accounts (especially since quite a few of them have their own accounts) when their play has been shocking. At least that would let them know in no uncertain terms what we expect from them as Everton players.
Reader Comments (50)
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Dick Anderson
4 Posted 29/08/2011 at 21:21:16
4 Posted 29/08/2011 at 21:21:16
I don't think inciting fans to be negative will really help Moyes and the team.
It's not Kenwright's fault. He's a millionaire in a league of billionaires and nobody wants to buy him out.
It's not Moyes's fault. He's managing a small squad with no funds for new players and still maintaining a Top 10 finish every year.
It's not the players' fault. They are a small squad playing to the best of their ability and last year they beat most of the Big 5.
So I think it's our job as fans to get behind the team and try to turn the negative feelings around the club into positive.
It's not Kenwright's fault. He's a millionaire in a league of billionaires and nobody wants to buy him out.
It's not Moyes's fault. He's managing a small squad with no funds for new players and still maintaining a Top 10 finish every year.
It's not the players' fault. They are a small squad playing to the best of their ability and last year they beat most of the Big 5.
So I think it's our job as fans to get behind the team and try to turn the negative feelings around the club into positive.
Ciarán McGlone
5 Posted 29/08/2011 at 22:15:37
5 Posted 29/08/2011 at 22:15:37
Brilliant. Our current problems on and off the field have nothing to do with the manager, players or the chairman. I posted earlier that a comment I'd read was the most ludicrous I'd ever read on this site. I think I'll have to reconsider.
Ste Traverse
6 Posted 29/08/2011 at 22:38:36
6 Posted 29/08/2011 at 22:38:36
Maybe our former players are worried about being banned from Goodison like the Echo once was and a certain person from the Daily Post now is if they speak out the current regime.
Although I do remember Big Nev being critical of Kenwright and his board on Sky and on Radio City in the recent past.
Although I do remember Big Nev being critical of Kenwright and his board on Sky and on Radio City in the recent past.
Danny Broderick
7 Posted 29/08/2011 at 22:44:35
7 Posted 29/08/2011 at 22:44:35
Dick, you are a joker. I think you've been sipping a bit too much ale at the Matthew Street Festival son. It's clearly gone to your head...
Brendan McLaughlin
8 Posted 29/08/2011 at 22:44:40
8 Posted 29/08/2011 at 22:44:40
Erm...let me think...Wenger has a shed load of cash and yet refuses to spend the money to transform Arsenal from being annual "also-rans" into genuine contenders. Moyes doesn't have a pot to piss in and yet keeps Everton at the business end of the Premier League...
Yeah it's a mystery why none of our high profile ex-players etc haven't taken Moyes to task.
Dan Brierley
9 Posted 29/08/2011 at 23:00:53
9 Posted 29/08/2011 at 23:00:53
Ciaran, I think you missed the points being made. It really isn't Kenwrights fault that we are not able to compete with billionaires that load the 'top' clubs in our country. It is the fault of the FA for allowing this scandalous unfair playing field.
Regarding Moyes, you constantly tell us that the board are failing as they do not provide the manager the resources to compete. Are we now saying thats not true, and he has had enough money to compete at the top? It cant be both.
The players are fully deflated, and confidence in and around the club is at an all time low. Fans have turned on the entire club, from board to playing staff. What Dick is suggesting is that by supporting the club it might improve things, as opposed to continually bringing it down at a time when the club needs our support most.
Regarding Moyes, you constantly tell us that the board are failing as they do not provide the manager the resources to compete. Are we now saying thats not true, and he has had enough money to compete at the top? It cant be both.
The players are fully deflated, and confidence in and around the club is at an all time low. Fans have turned on the entire club, from board to playing staff. What Dick is suggesting is that by supporting the club it might improve things, as opposed to continually bringing it down at a time when the club needs our support most.
Of course, supporting is a choice. But it doesnt take a wise man to predict that the continuing trend of fans not supporting is currently damaging the club just as much as other factors. City went down two divisions, yet still managed to have fans turn out in their droves to support their team.
We are going through a tough time, and our fans are deserting us. Regardless of whether or not you agree with the board/manager or whatever, I have never seen so much hatred aimed towards our club by our own fans. This will definitely result in change, I am certain of that. Although I truly fear that new ownership will not be the utopia you seem to believe it will.
Dick Fearon
10 Posted 29/08/2011 at 23:07:56
10 Posted 29/08/2011 at 23:07:56
Fer Christ sake, we are already working our fingers to the bone being as critical as we can here on TW yet Rob wants us to do more. Give us a break.
Ciarán McGlone
11 Posted 29/08/2011 at 23:53:46
11 Posted 29/08/2011 at 23:53:46
No Dan. It's you missing the point with every single defence that you make. You've had the flaws in your arguments explained to you so many times that I have to conclude that it would be sheer futility to bother doing it again.
Garry Corgan
12 Posted 30/08/2011 at 02:16:01
12 Posted 30/08/2011 at 02:16:01
Ciaran - I'll have a go, but I'll keep it very, very simple. :)
It's Kenwright's fault he's had more than a decade to sell the club and has failed. He doesn't need to find a billionaire. Anybody with a decent business plan would do.
It's also Kenwright's fault that in ten years we haven't managed to find a suitable location to even think about building a new stadium - never mind financing it.
It's Moyes' fault Heitinga is being played in midfield, Yakubu can't get a look in, we play 4-5-1 at home with bloody Anichebe up front on his own.
It's the players fault that, at times, they can be poor. My personal disappointment so far this season is Jagielka. It's his fault, and his alone, that he can't seem to defend OR pass at the moment.
So far from nobody being as fault, as Dan asserts, every employee and board member has their own responsibilities and some of them are failing miserably. Some will be forgiven. Some's usefulness outweigh their shortcomings, but others have, in my view, had their last chance.
It's Kenwright's fault he's had more than a decade to sell the club and has failed. He doesn't need to find a billionaire. Anybody with a decent business plan would do.
It's also Kenwright's fault that in ten years we haven't managed to find a suitable location to even think about building a new stadium - never mind financing it.
It's Moyes' fault Heitinga is being played in midfield, Yakubu can't get a look in, we play 4-5-1 at home with bloody Anichebe up front on his own.
It's the players fault that, at times, they can be poor. My personal disappointment so far this season is Jagielka. It's his fault, and his alone, that he can't seem to defend OR pass at the moment.
So far from nobody being as fault, as Dan asserts, every employee and board member has their own responsibilities and some of them are failing miserably. Some will be forgiven. Some's usefulness outweigh their shortcomings, but others have, in my view, had their last chance.
Jay Harris
14 Posted 30/08/2011 at 02:42:39
14 Posted 30/08/2011 at 02:42:39
I think both clubs are at the crossroads.
Arsenal have a proven trophy winning manager,a new state of the art stadium, a board of taleneted capable people and money to spend but seem reluctant or incapable of spending it on an inexperienced but talented squad.
Everton by comparison are in dire straits like a rudderless ship.
A useless self interested board, no long or short term plan, no spark within the club, an administration that is rotten to the core with total contempt for fans, mortgaged to the hilt with a barebones squad that is the only asset we have and yes we should support the team but we also need to make our dissatisfaction known to the hierarchy.
KENWRIGHT MUST BE DRIVEN OUT
Arsenal have a proven trophy winning manager,a new state of the art stadium, a board of taleneted capable people and money to spend but seem reluctant or incapable of spending it on an inexperienced but talented squad.
Everton by comparison are in dire straits like a rudderless ship.
A useless self interested board, no long or short term plan, no spark within the club, an administration that is rotten to the core with total contempt for fans, mortgaged to the hilt with a barebones squad that is the only asset we have and yes we should support the team but we also need to make our dissatisfaction known to the hierarchy.
KENWRIGHT MUST BE DRIVEN OUT
Martin Mason
15 Posted 30/08/2011 at 03:16:20
15 Posted 30/08/2011 at 03:16:20
This really is becoming tedious now. Does anybody ever have something new or constructive to say? Just remember that for "fans" read customers and you have no say in the running of the club. If you don't like it then don't go.
Rob Teo
16 Posted 30/08/2011 at 04:04:45
16 Posted 30/08/2011 at 04:04:45
Martin#12,
I'm a fan of Everton Football Club, not a customer. I don't jump ship just because I "don't like it". I voice my opinion in the hope of effecting change.
Maybe for you, it's easy to give up supporting a club as it is to change the brand of your cologne when you disagree with the club's policies. For me, however, it's a lifelong relationship that I'm bound to, and not subject to whether the club is successful or not, or whether I like or dislike the way the club is run.
So, you go ahead and enjoy being a customer who can come and go as he pleases, because I sure as heck won't.
I'm a fan of Everton Football Club, not a customer. I don't jump ship just because I "don't like it". I voice my opinion in the hope of effecting change.
Maybe for you, it's easy to give up supporting a club as it is to change the brand of your cologne when you disagree with the club's policies. For me, however, it's a lifelong relationship that I'm bound to, and not subject to whether the club is successful or not, or whether I like or dislike the way the club is run.
So, you go ahead and enjoy being a customer who can come and go as he pleases, because I sure as heck won't.
John Keating
17 Posted 30/08/2011 at 06:43:38
17 Posted 30/08/2011 at 06:43:38
Martin 12. That has to be the most fucking ridiculous statement ever made.
Sounds something BK would say - actually he did didn't he ??
Sounds something BK would say - actually he did didn't he ??
Chad Schofield
18 Posted 30/08/2011 at 08:25:01
18 Posted 30/08/2011 at 08:25:01
Garry Corgan, in my opinion 100% right. I just don't understand why people keep trying to make excuses for Bill or the board. If Neville insisted on being the club's striker and decreed only he could score goals for Everton, people would question his sanity... Yet Bill has had years to sell the club. He has never had the resources. And Dan, seriously, when has football ever been about level playing fields in terms of finance or success.
John Ford
19 Posted 30/08/2011 at 08:48:04
19 Posted 30/08/2011 at 08:48:04
This is getting ridiculous. Suggesting former players come out against a manager who has consistently produced better premier results than any other comparable team, or any other manager? Yeh right I can just see Southall et al making themselves look like idiots!
Have we forgotten how we rolled teams last season, or do we forget that the only teams higher than us were on the mega rich list.
TW is getting silly, and the asides and snide comments are creeping into its editorial articles . Keep you powder dry for those who deserve it, like the board. Moyes doesnt.
Have we forgotten how we rolled teams last season, or do we forget that the only teams higher than us were on the mega rich list.
TW is getting silly, and the asides and snide comments are creeping into its editorial articles . Keep you powder dry for those who deserve it, like the board. Moyes doesnt.
Derek Thomas
20 Posted 30/08/2011 at 08:25:19
20 Posted 30/08/2011 at 08:25:19
As a customer I go to Asda, or Aldi or Tesco, when they have what I want at a price I think is fair.
Come to think of it I was a customer of Tesco's before I was a customer of EFC, though that was back in the day when my Tesco was called Irwins ( remember them?) and I was selling them jamjars for halfpenny.
But I never had an emotional tie to them, maybe to the halfpenny, but not them.
As both a fan and a customer of EFC, I should be able to have some say. I can't go anywhere else as they have an emotional footballing monopoly.
In no particular order some words and phrases.
Constructive Critisism... being shouted down or not allowed to voice opinions is Totalitarian.
Admitting that there IS a problem is the first step to recovery.
On the football front, money not withstanding, If Moyes was to send the team out to not, not lose, That would get the waiver-ers behind the team....
We appreciate effort and intent, try and fail, well fair play to yis, we will get behind you and maybe make the difference.
Effort and Intent, that goes double for the Board, forget the past, what are you going to do about the future??
Moyes and the Board, poor plan A, no plan B.
Thats why the critisism.
And if they don't like it, there is only one option... MORE OF IT !!
p.s. I didn't know Paul Bracewell's sister married into nobility.
Come to think of it I was a customer of Tesco's before I was a customer of EFC, though that was back in the day when my Tesco was called Irwins ( remember them?) and I was selling them jamjars for halfpenny.
But I never had an emotional tie to them, maybe to the halfpenny, but not them.
As both a fan and a customer of EFC, I should be able to have some say. I can't go anywhere else as they have an emotional footballing monopoly.
In no particular order some words and phrases.
Constructive Critisism... being shouted down or not allowed to voice opinions is Totalitarian.
Admitting that there IS a problem is the first step to recovery.
On the football front, money not withstanding, If Moyes was to send the team out to not, not lose, That would get the waiver-ers behind the team....
We appreciate effort and intent, try and fail, well fair play to yis, we will get behind you and maybe make the difference.
Effort and Intent, that goes double for the Board, forget the past, what are you going to do about the future??
Moyes and the Board, poor plan A, no plan B.
Thats why the critisism.
And if they don't like it, there is only one option... MORE OF IT !!
p.s. I didn't know Paul Bracewell's sister married into nobility.
Martin Mason
21 Posted 30/08/2011 at 09:03:28
21 Posted 30/08/2011 at 09:03:28
I've been an Everton fan since the first game I watched in 1958 and I will always be an Evertonian. I'm stating reality that's all. I agree that a PLC that doesn't listen to it's customers is asking for trouble but Everton isn't a "club" as such and we customers aren't stakeholders and have no right to "demand" anything.
I don't like what is happening at Everton any more than any of us but I still haven't heard any solutions and I personally am not sure what BK and his crew can do to increase revenue or how they can get new owners at anything other than a fire sale price. Who in their right mind would pay anything other than a notional price for us given our debt and ground problems? They were probably daft to get into so much debt but don't forget that a lot of it was buying players.
Ideally the directors would sell at a price only to recoup what they put in and stand aside to let somebody with fresh ideas have a go but they aren't going to do that and I don't believe that BK is going to take any notice of fans trying to force him out. Does he seem like a bloke that'd do that?
I believe that what is happening now with club and fans is being ever more felt by the players and is being reflected on the pitch.
I don't like what is happening at Everton any more than any of us but I still haven't heard any solutions and I personally am not sure what BK and his crew can do to increase revenue or how they can get new owners at anything other than a fire sale price. Who in their right mind would pay anything other than a notional price for us given our debt and ground problems? They were probably daft to get into so much debt but don't forget that a lot of it was buying players.
Ideally the directors would sell at a price only to recoup what they put in and stand aside to let somebody with fresh ideas have a go but they aren't going to do that and I don't believe that BK is going to take any notice of fans trying to force him out. Does he seem like a bloke that'd do that?
I believe that what is happening now with club and fans is being ever more felt by the players and is being reflected on the pitch.
Trevor Mackie
22 Posted 30/08/2011 at 09:16:38
22 Posted 30/08/2011 at 09:16:38
Even at the start of this season people had Arsenal down as top 4, their achievements since the Premiership inception is startling, I would give my right arm for us to have half of it.
It's a genuine shock to see the collapse at Arsenal.
Our demise has been a long term stealth project, no drama here, no need for ex pro headlines it's just accepted - we punch above our weight, a miracle worker lives here.
...blah,blah,blah,blah.
It's a genuine shock to see the collapse at Arsenal.
Our demise has been a long term stealth project, no drama here, no need for ex pro headlines it's just accepted - we punch above our weight, a miracle worker lives here.
...blah,blah,blah,blah.
Andy Crooks
23 Posted 30/08/2011 at 10:02:53
23 Posted 30/08/2011 at 10:02:53
Martin, "for"fans" read customers". Truly ludicrous. I am a customer of Tesco. If they sell me a shite product I will expect my money back. Everton have sold quite a bit of shite over the last few years. Also, I have no emotional attachment to Tesco. Customers are better treated than supporters.
Martin Mason
24 Posted 30/08/2011 at 10:36:32
24 Posted 30/08/2011 at 10:36:32
Andy, well go and ask for your money back. You are definitely a fan and a customer but you aren't a stakeholder and emotions don't have a place in business which is what Everton FC is.
I agree that our emotion tells us that as soccer fans we are somehow part of the club but we aren't. We are exactly like any football franchise in the USA now. We are customers who buy various products from the club. Can you name any business where non-shareholders decide how the business is run?
I believe that we should be represented as a key interest group and I like what the Blue Union is doing in that respect. I just believe that the concept of BK out DM out and all of our problems are over is ridiculous.
I agree that our emotion tells us that as soccer fans we are somehow part of the club but we aren't. We are exactly like any football franchise in the USA now. We are customers who buy various products from the club. Can you name any business where non-shareholders decide how the business is run?
I believe that we should be represented as a key interest group and I like what the Blue Union is doing in that respect. I just believe that the concept of BK out DM out and all of our problems are over is ridiculous.
Denis Richardson
25 Posted 30/08/2011 at 11:34:48
25 Posted 30/08/2011 at 11:34:48
Martin, I think you need a bit of reality. A football club is not like a department store and yes fans can effect change.
Do you think the protests by the fans accross the street had no effect in bringing in a new board? The bank may have been the one to force the issue but if it looks like we (the fans) are about to give up on the club and stop going, am pretty sure Barclays et al will come in and tell the board to do one.
If we stop going to games, revenue goes down (yes I know that TV money is large but gate receipts are as well). If that happens the lenders will get very nervous and start calling a few more shots.
Fan power does have an effect in football, you just need a sizeable minority to get the ball rolling. Just look at what is happening to our own club now, after the BU article. Certainly set the cat amoungst the pigeons in the Everton board room.
I hope that this will lead to a huge change in the club - new board, new manager and some new players, at some point in the future, so we (the fans) can look forward to entertaining football again with somesort of future plan in place.
Here's still hoping.
Do you think the protests by the fans accross the street had no effect in bringing in a new board? The bank may have been the one to force the issue but if it looks like we (the fans) are about to give up on the club and stop going, am pretty sure Barclays et al will come in and tell the board to do one.
If we stop going to games, revenue goes down (yes I know that TV money is large but gate receipts are as well). If that happens the lenders will get very nervous and start calling a few more shots.
Fan power does have an effect in football, you just need a sizeable minority to get the ball rolling. Just look at what is happening to our own club now, after the BU article. Certainly set the cat amoungst the pigeons in the Everton board room.
I hope that this will lead to a huge change in the club - new board, new manager and some new players, at some point in the future, so we (the fans) can look forward to entertaining football again with somesort of future plan in place.
Here's still hoping.
Martin Mason
26 Posted 30/08/2011 at 12:23:01
26 Posted 30/08/2011 at 12:23:01
Denis, we have the same aims and dreams mate believe me but I'm not sure that it was fan power that did the business at Liverpool or Villa (and it's not had any effect at United) and we are in a different position to Liverpool in that they had buyers lined up and we would have a job to give EFC away? We ditch Moyes and the board and then what? Hope for a miracle perhaps.
I like the BU idea because it means communication and hopefully compromise between groups with extreme and opposite positions. The wrong move at this stage will see Everton relegated and I there's no telling where it could end up. I believe that the club could self destruct. Strictly speaking we aren't a going concern now.
I like the BU idea because it means communication and hopefully compromise between groups with extreme and opposite positions. The wrong move at this stage will see Everton relegated and I there's no telling where it could end up. I believe that the club could self destruct. Strictly speaking we aren't a going concern now.
Daniel A Johnson
27 Posted 30/08/2011 at 12:29:26
27 Posted 30/08/2011 at 12:29:26
Evertonians are weak, passive and are just accepting of their fate.
Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool you could argue their fans have a level of expectation and pride, when they are not happy with whats in front of their eyes on the pitch they are not afraid to fucking say so.
We have to accept as fans we now know our place and its not dining with the prem elite.
Were happy with a good cup run, a top half finish +ive goal difference and maybe a place in the mickey mouse europa cup.
Untill we all begin to WANT MORE and fucking barrack the people at the top, this series of events will just continue.
But instead its shut up and support your team, yeah lets all shut up and cheer on the mediocrity, lets smile at being average.
B O L L O C K S
Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool you could argue their fans have a level of expectation and pride, when they are not happy with whats in front of their eyes on the pitch they are not afraid to fucking say so.
We have to accept as fans we now know our place and its not dining with the prem elite.
Were happy with a good cup run, a top half finish +ive goal difference and maybe a place in the mickey mouse europa cup.
Untill we all begin to WANT MORE and fucking barrack the people at the top, this series of events will just continue.
But instead its shut up and support your team, yeah lets all shut up and cheer on the mediocrity, lets smile at being average.
B O L L O C K S
Denis Richardson
28 Posted 30/08/2011 at 13:19:55
28 Posted 30/08/2011 at 13:19:55
Martin, I agree that whatever side people on here take, we all want the best for the club. However, I dont accept the 'we ditch the manager and board and then what?' argument.
The reason we are here in the first place is because of gross mismanagement of the club so the whole 'better the devil you know' thing is not acceptable to me. To be honest, I am not fussed if Moyes stays or goes at this point (I fully appreciate what he did for the club in the past), as this is not the key issue.
The long term health of the club lies in getting a different management /owner on board. Moyes is not going to be able to do much with the lot he has got now and to be honest even if we had a new owner and funds were available, I would wish for a manager with a damn site more attacking intent. (The fact that most (if not all) of our coaching staff are defenders says it all!).
Either way, the BU article has given a big push to the change movement, I cannot see how the management can hang on as the situation gets worse.
On the selling Everton front, I personally believe that if the sales process were given to an independent panel, we would be sold without a problem. I simply cannot believe that no one would be interested in buying an established premeiership club with the history of EFC, even with our stadium issue.
We (IMO) are a sleeping giant that has been in a coma for far too long. Some proper management off the field and more attackminded/ better tactical management on the field would see us start to get back to where we should be (and yes I do mean should and not could!).
Still - we wait and hope but change is coming.
The reason we are here in the first place is because of gross mismanagement of the club so the whole 'better the devil you know' thing is not acceptable to me. To be honest, I am not fussed if Moyes stays or goes at this point (I fully appreciate what he did for the club in the past), as this is not the key issue.
The long term health of the club lies in getting a different management /owner on board. Moyes is not going to be able to do much with the lot he has got now and to be honest even if we had a new owner and funds were available, I would wish for a manager with a damn site more attacking intent. (The fact that most (if not all) of our coaching staff are defenders says it all!).
Either way, the BU article has given a big push to the change movement, I cannot see how the management can hang on as the situation gets worse.
On the selling Everton front, I personally believe that if the sales process were given to an independent panel, we would be sold without a problem. I simply cannot believe that no one would be interested in buying an established premeiership club with the history of EFC, even with our stadium issue.
We (IMO) are a sleeping giant that has been in a coma for far too long. Some proper management off the field and more attackminded/ better tactical management on the field would see us start to get back to where we should be (and yes I do mean should and not could!).
Still - we wait and hope but change is coming.
Sam Morrison
29 Posted 30/08/2011 at 13:43:51
29 Posted 30/08/2011 at 13:43:51
See Brendan @6.
There is enough to be genuinely angry and disappointed about with the club, you really don't need to go into ludicrous "and another thing" criticisms that vastly oversimplify.
There is enough to be genuinely angry and disappointed about with the club, you really don't need to go into ludicrous "and another thing" criticisms that vastly oversimplify.
Sam Morrison
30 Posted 30/08/2011 at 13:46:27
30 Posted 30/08/2011 at 13:46:27
To clarify, I agree with Brendan!
Eugene Ruane
31 Posted 30/08/2011 at 14:16:17
31 Posted 30/08/2011 at 14:16:17
Dan Brierley (7) says..
"It really isn't Kenwrights fault that we are not able to compete with billionaires that load the 'top' clubs in our country. It is the fault of the FA for allowing this scandalous unfair playing field".
Before he said it, he accused someone else of 'missing the point'.
Not going to pass comment, I'll....just let that hang there.
"It really isn't Kenwrights fault that we are not able to compete with billionaires that load the 'top' clubs in our country. It is the fault of the FA for allowing this scandalous unfair playing field".
Before he said it, he accused someone else of 'missing the point'.
Not going to pass comment, I'll....just let that hang there.
Martin Mason
32 Posted 30/08/2011 at 14:44:17
32 Posted 30/08/2011 at 14:44:17
Daniel
I WANT to win the lottery next week. It doesn't mean I'm going to.
DenisI don't disagree with you except perhaps in one area. We don't know that BK and DM haven't done as well as anybody could do within the constraints they operate under. We have no idea that anybody could do better under the same constraints? Bad days indeed for such a great club. another game like Saturday's though and I may join the Moyes out briigade.
I WANT to win the lottery next week. It doesn't mean I'm going to.
DenisI don't disagree with you except perhaps in one area. We don't know that BK and DM haven't done as well as anybody could do within the constraints they operate under. We have no idea that anybody could do better under the same constraints? Bad days indeed for such a great club. another game like Saturday's though and I may join the Moyes out briigade.
Ciarán McGlone
33 Posted 30/08/2011 at 15:20:55
33 Posted 30/08/2011 at 15:20:55
Mr Mason,
You appear to be mising a rather obvious point.
For me, Kenwright had no business buying this club in the first place...Here we had a man who allegedly had to mortgage his house to buy his majority shareholding.
So, from the outset, this man had no means - or for that matter - no INTENTION - of improving this club. He was a busted flush before he started to prevail over this meltdown.
It is not a matter of whether anyone could've done better under the same constraints (although that is also a rather obvious given, considering the business incompetence he's shown)..
It is not a valid defence of his tenure to say that we don't know if some other clown wouldn't have made the same mistakes. THAT IS NOT A DEFENCE
The fact is, he took responsibility for a club he claims to love, when he had no ability to do anything whatsoever to improve our position. He put his own self-serving agenda above the improvement of this club. For me, that's an act of shameless vandalism and dishonesty. He offered himself as our white shinning knight after Johnsons reign - when he couldn't even afford the armour.
The result of Kenwright's tenure was inevitable - that's the bloody crime here!
You appear to be mising a rather obvious point.
For me, Kenwright had no business buying this club in the first place...Here we had a man who allegedly had to mortgage his house to buy his majority shareholding.
So, from the outset, this man had no means - or for that matter - no INTENTION - of improving this club. He was a busted flush before he started to prevail over this meltdown.
It is not a matter of whether anyone could've done better under the same constraints (although that is also a rather obvious given, considering the business incompetence he's shown)..
It is not a valid defence of his tenure to say that we don't know if some other clown wouldn't have made the same mistakes. THAT IS NOT A DEFENCE
The fact is, he took responsibility for a club he claims to love, when he had no ability to do anything whatsoever to improve our position. He put his own self-serving agenda above the improvement of this club. For me, that's an act of shameless vandalism and dishonesty. He offered himself as our white shinning knight after Johnsons reign - when he couldn't even afford the armour.
The result of Kenwright's tenure was inevitable - that's the bloody crime here!
Andrew Rimmer
35 Posted 30/08/2011 at 19:25:04
35 Posted 30/08/2011 at 19:25:04
I wont go anymore, I want to be entertained and it's a good few years since that happened! A Fan, and a Customer. Moyes has got loads of players, just the wrong ones in the wrong places!
David Thomas
36 Posted 30/08/2011 at 20:28:06
36 Posted 30/08/2011 at 20:28:06
Ciaran,
As far as i am aware Kenwright was the only party offering to buy PJ's share? Unless someone can tell me otherwise?
So you think we should have stuck with PJ for the forseeable future and waited for our white knight?
"It's Kenwright's fault he's had more than a decade to sell the club and has failed. He doesn't need to find a billionaire. Anybody with a decent business plan would do."
I think that depends on what as an Everton fan you actually want. If like me you want to see everton competing for honours season in season out then yes we do need a multi millionaire or billionaire. I would have thought that was fairly obvious. If thay don't have this then it does not matter what business plan an individual has it won't allow us to compete with Man U, City or Chelsea.
As far as i am aware Kenwright was the only party offering to buy PJ's share? Unless someone can tell me otherwise?
So you think we should have stuck with PJ for the forseeable future and waited for our white knight?
"It's Kenwright's fault he's had more than a decade to sell the club and has failed. He doesn't need to find a billionaire. Anybody with a decent business plan would do."
I think that depends on what as an Everton fan you actually want. If like me you want to see everton competing for honours season in season out then yes we do need a multi millionaire or billionaire. I would have thought that was fairly obvious. If thay don't have this then it does not matter what business plan an individual has it won't allow us to compete with Man U, City or Chelsea.
Ciarán McGlone
37 Posted 30/08/2011 at 20:47:34
37 Posted 30/08/2011 at 20:47:34
David. Can you not read what i.ve written? I'm saying that he should not have bought the club in the first place. My point requires no clarification.
David Thomas
38 Posted 30/08/2011 at 21:09:41
38 Posted 30/08/2011 at 21:09:41
Ciaran,
Yes, you believe Kenwright should have not bought the club and therefore PJ should have stayed in charge until he found a man with the means to take this club forward. Maybe PJ would have been able to find this white knight that Kenwright has not been able to find or maybe we would be on this site moaning about PJ to this day with people stating "anyone is better than PJ". Who knows?
Yes, you believe Kenwright should have not bought the club and therefore PJ should have stayed in charge until he found a man with the means to take this club forward. Maybe PJ would have been able to find this white knight that Kenwright has not been able to find or maybe we would be on this site moaning about PJ to this day with people stating "anyone is better than PJ". Who knows?
Ciarán McGlone
39 Posted 30/08/2011 at 22:39:26
39 Posted 30/08/2011 at 22:39:26
Have you got a point in relation to my opinion, that doesn't involve an exploration of alternative realities?
David Thomas
40 Posted 30/08/2011 at 23:51:42
40 Posted 30/08/2011 at 23:51:42
I was just getting clarification that you wanted PJ to maintain control and now you have clarified that for me.
Nick Armitage
41 Posted 30/08/2011 at 22:56:37
41 Posted 30/08/2011 at 22:56:37
Ciarán McGlone - you hit the nail on the head in stating, "He was a busted flush before he started to prevail over this meltdown."
Kenwright's only chance was the Kings Dock, it is his fault he decided to own 30% of fuck all rather than 20% of something. As a consequence the club is fucked.
The only common thread throughout this sorry episode is Kenwright's overwhelming desire to retain a controlling shareholding.
Kenwright's only chance was the Kings Dock, it is his fault he decided to own 30% of fuck all rather than 20% of something. As a consequence the club is fucked.
The only common thread throughout this sorry episode is Kenwright's overwhelming desire to retain a controlling shareholding.
Martin Mason
42 Posted 31/08/2011 at 03:05:18
42 Posted 31/08/2011 at 03:05:18
Why in any business there is no requirement for a director to put his own money into the club and yet BK is expected to put his own into EFC to improve it?
EFC like any business should operate from trading revenue and sustainable borrowing. We are all realising that it's not a change in director but a change to somebody who has money to throw away that we must have. That is the least likely outcome for EFC.
EFC like any business should operate from trading revenue and sustainable borrowing. We are all realising that it's not a change in director but a change to somebody who has money to throw away that we must have. That is the least likely outcome for EFC.
Ciar�n McGlone
43 Posted 31/08/2011 at 09:34:54
43 Posted 31/08/2011 at 09:34:54
"I was just getting clarification that you wanted PJ to maintain control and now you have clarified that for me."
-------------------------------
Maybe in your little brain it's been clarified - but nowhere did I state, or even imply that.
It's rather concerning that the only defence of Bill Kenwright that his 'fans' can come up with - are hypothetical alternatives..."what if's"...and surprisingly there's never a positive "what if"
If it's not - "Do you want a porstmouth" - it's - "You wanted Peter Johnson to stay"..
The alternative "what if" is never one that might bring a bit of joy to your imagination- e.g, "what if" someone with a reasonable amount of cash had come in instead of Kenwright, with a good sensible business plan, which would've meant we were now the biggest team in liverpool, no England, no the fuckin world!
God forbid anybody uses a bit of imagination when they make shit up..
For christs sake, use your fucking brain. Nowhere in a position that advocates that Bill Kenwright shold not have taken over it is necessary to assume that the only alternative is Peter Johnson remaining in control.
You people are starting to make me very angry with your two bit logical fallacies.
-------------------------------
Maybe in your little brain it's been clarified - but nowhere did I state, or even imply that.
It's rather concerning that the only defence of Bill Kenwright that his 'fans' can come up with - are hypothetical alternatives..."what if's"...and surprisingly there's never a positive "what if"
If it's not - "Do you want a porstmouth" - it's - "You wanted Peter Johnson to stay"..
The alternative "what if" is never one that might bring a bit of joy to your imagination- e.g, "what if" someone with a reasonable amount of cash had come in instead of Kenwright, with a good sensible business plan, which would've meant we were now the biggest team in liverpool, no England, no the fuckin world!
God forbid anybody uses a bit of imagination when they make shit up..
For christs sake, use your fucking brain. Nowhere in a position that advocates that Bill Kenwright shold not have taken over it is necessary to assume that the only alternative is Peter Johnson remaining in control.
You people are starting to make me very angry with your two bit logical fallacies.
Martin Mason
44 Posted 31/08/2011 at 10:18:12
44 Posted 31/08/2011 at 10:18:12
Nothing should ever be changed unless there is a very high probability that the change will be successful. Change in the hope that it could result in improvements isn't a strategy at all.
Virtually all soccer fans in the UK would perhaps see 7th place in the Premiership from a club that spends nothing as success. Not some Evertonians though who feel that we should actually win trophies against clubs that can spend half a billion pounds on players. All we need to do is change the board and manager. That is logical fallacy.
Virtually all soccer fans in the UK would perhaps see 7th place in the Premiership from a club that spends nothing as success. Not some Evertonians though who feel that we should actually win trophies against clubs that can spend half a billion pounds on players. All we need to do is change the board and manager. That is logical fallacy.
Ciar�n McGlone
45 Posted 31/08/2011 at 10:31:50
45 Posted 31/08/2011 at 10:31:50
Martin.
Bollocks.
Bollocks.
Kevin Hudson
46 Posted 31/08/2011 at 12:10:51
46 Posted 31/08/2011 at 12:10:51
" You people are starting to make me very angry with your two bit logical fallacies."
Hilarious. Put the knife down,Ciaran.
Hilarious. Put the knife down,Ciaran.
David Thomas
47 Posted 31/08/2011 at 12:26:26
47 Posted 31/08/2011 at 12:26:26
Ciaran,
"You people are starting to make me very angry with your two bit logical fallacies"
To be quite honest your posts have annoyed the fuck out of me for about 3 years
"For christs sake, use your fucking brain. Nowhere in a position that advocates that Bill Kenwright shold not have taken over it is necessary to assume that the only alternative is Peter Johnson remaining in control"
YES IT FUCKIN IS BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WANTED TO BUY THE CLUB SO OF FUCKIN COURSE HE WOULD HAVE STAYED IN CONTROL.
I will explain it to you slowly so it sinks in if Kenwright did not buy the club (as you state he had no business doing) then PJ would have stayed in control as there was NO ONE ELSE WHO WANTED TO BUY THE CLUB AT THAT POINT.
"You people are starting to make me very angry with your two bit logical fallacies"
To be quite honest your posts have annoyed the fuck out of me for about 3 years
"For christs sake, use your fucking brain. Nowhere in a position that advocates that Bill Kenwright shold not have taken over it is necessary to assume that the only alternative is Peter Johnson remaining in control"
YES IT FUCKIN IS BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE WANTED TO BUY THE CLUB SO OF FUCKIN COURSE HE WOULD HAVE STAYED IN CONTROL.
I will explain it to you slowly so it sinks in if Kenwright did not buy the club (as you state he had no business doing) then PJ would have stayed in control as there was NO ONE ELSE WHO WANTED TO BUY THE CLUB AT THAT POINT.
Ciar�n McGlone
48 Posted 31/08/2011 at 12:50:34
48 Posted 31/08/2011 at 12:50:34
Saying he would've stayed in control is quite fuckin different (i.e NOT THE SAME) from saying that I "wanted" him to stay in control...are you even aware of the words you're actually posting?
br />
By the way, how in the good name of fuck do you know, KNOW, that no-one else would've bought the club if potless Kenwright hadn't?
You don't. You haven't got a scoooby doo...like your entire MO on this site it's based on hot air, guesswork, flights of fancy!
And by the way - Just to CLARIFY something for you. BK was not the only one interested in buying the club...in fact, he wasn't the only one who actually bought the club..A certain Paul Gregg was not only interested in buying the club, HE ACTUALLY BOUGHT part of it!
No one else, interested in buying it? Hmmmmmm....factually, and definitively INCORRECT [insert family fortunes gong here].
br />
By the way, how in the good name of fuck do you know, KNOW, that no-one else would've bought the club if potless Kenwright hadn't?
You don't. You haven't got a scoooby doo...like your entire MO on this site it's based on hot air, guesswork, flights of fancy!
And by the way - Just to CLARIFY something for you. BK was not the only one interested in buying the club...in fact, he wasn't the only one who actually bought the club..A certain Paul Gregg was not only interested in buying the club, HE ACTUALLY BOUGHT part of it!
No one else, interested in buying it? Hmmmmmm....factually, and definitively INCORRECT [insert family fortunes gong here].
Michael Brooks
49 Posted 31/08/2011 at 13:08:26
49 Posted 31/08/2011 at 13:08:26
Dick Anderson is a very funny man! Great joke, I take my hat off to you!
On a day like today and after old Bill told us with a straight yet very condescending look on his face that the football word is like the rest of the world in recession and only the football elite are unaffected! So, the like of Stoke and Fulham are elite!
Bill has never intended to sell! That?s the true! However, a great joke from Dick Anderson has brighten up my day, thanks Dick!
On a day like today and after old Bill told us with a straight yet very condescending look on his face that the football word is like the rest of the world in recession and only the football elite are unaffected! So, the like of Stoke and Fulham are elite!
Bill has never intended to sell! That?s the true! However, a great joke from Dick Anderson has brighten up my day, thanks Dick!
David Thomas
50 Posted 31/08/2011 at 13:55:38
50 Posted 31/08/2011 at 13:55:38
Ciaran,
That is pathetic even for you.
I thought you would have the mental capacity to realise i was stating apart from Kenwright consortium who bid for the club and bought the club that there was no other bids.
The fact that PJ has never mentioned any other bids
Kenwright has never mentioned any other bids
Paul Gregg has never mentioned any other bids
No one else in the club at that time or to this present day has mentioned any other bids
No other bidders have ever come out and said they were interested
The media have never reported any other bids at that time
The above reasons are were i drew my conclusion that there was no other bid than Kenwrights consortium.
I will leave you to put whatever spin you want on your posts.
That is pathetic even for you.
I thought you would have the mental capacity to realise i was stating apart from Kenwright consortium who bid for the club and bought the club that there was no other bids.
The fact that PJ has never mentioned any other bids
Kenwright has never mentioned any other bids
Paul Gregg has never mentioned any other bids
No one else in the club at that time or to this present day has mentioned any other bids
No other bidders have ever come out and said they were interested
The media have never reported any other bids at that time
The above reasons are were i drew my conclusion that there was no other bid than Kenwrights consortium.
I will leave you to put whatever spin you want on your posts.
Ciarán McGlone
51 Posted 31/08/2011 at 14:10:46
51 Posted 31/08/2011 at 14:10:46
Yeah, facts...pathetic, aren't they.
David Thomas
52 Posted 31/08/2011 at 15:18:56
52 Posted 31/08/2011 at 15:18:56
Ciaran,
Which fact would that be. The one that Kenwright and his consortium were the only people who bid for PJ shares?
Which fact would that be. The one that Kenwright and his consortium were the only people who bid for PJ shares?
Ciarán McGlone
53 Posted 31/08/2011 at 15:40:49
53 Posted 31/08/2011 at 15:40:49
You have no idea what would've happened had Kenwright have kept his 20 bob in his pocket. That's a fact.
Whether you fail to recognise it as one, or not.
Whether you fail to recognise it as one, or not.
Andy Crooks
54 Posted 31/08/2011 at 17:25:36
54 Posted 31/08/2011 at 17:25:36
David , the fact that Kenwright "bought" the club all those years ago wasn't an act of love for Everton. A proper Evertonian would take his money back without profit and let someone better equipped take the reins. He won't. I believe that without Kenwright we would be in a better place. You may think you have but you have not dealt with Ciaran's point. You seem to be missing the point.
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1 Posted 29/08/2011 at 20:46:17