If Bill had balls

Howie
you make some good points but to say "We have come back from the brink" is totally delusional.

EFC's problems are not players wages in isolation.

The problems are a symptom of total mismanagement over the last 11 years and you can hardly blame Moyes for that.

We have been asset stripped to the point the cupboard is bare and we now have to sell quality players just to keep the Bank happy.

WE are run by an incompetent buffoon and it is credit to Moyes that he manages to kepp the team performing season after season.

We have just registered 18 players with the Premier league which must be lowest of any club and is an atrocity when you consider we are still (just about) the fourth most successful club in the top flight.

Nonsense about Moyes being the problem and not Kenwright just does not wash with me.

Jay, just to rub salt in the "18", three are injured and one wants out to Turkey again and may even have gone already

Who decides the budgets and sign the cheques?

make that four forgot about Gueye

If I had £1 for every time the phrase 'asset strip' was used incorrectly by an Evertonian, I'd have enough money to build us a new stadium myself.

Borrowing money from a creditor and using your assets as security is not, never has been and never will be 'asset stripping'.

Also, the notion that our outgoings are greater than our income (which is presumably based on us making an accounting loss) is another recurring error.

Everton makes a cash profit most years and has done so for a long time. Our problem is that it's peanuts compared to the transfer budgets of most top clubs.

The reason why all our players were put onto long term contracts is to stop clubs buying them on the cheap. How much do you think Arteta would have went for with only 12 months on his contract left? Simply put, if anyone wants Jags, Baines, Cahill, Rodwell or anyone else we signed up, they have to pay what we ask, not what we are told (Jags this summer).

Richard #5

"Also, the notion that our outgoings are greater than our income (which is presumably based on us making an accounting loss) is another recurring error."

I'm glad you've said that; the fella who goes to the game with seven mates who all think like him, presumably Sleepy, Dozy, Bashful and the rest, will be on here spouting the same old shite that he has for years.

Yeah it?s bad in the last accounts and the next aren?t much better, but prior to that EBITDA was £8m and the year before it was £9m. I fully expect this position to improve after the end of the current year; even a broken clock is right twice a day but wrong for the other 1438 mins but some are oblivious - get Keith on the phone love!!

Richard #5,
I am not referring to the mortgages which have helped our debt to record levels.

I am referring to the assets SOLD.

FYI Netherfield, Bellefield, Finch Farm (albeit leased back on crazy terms) and player sales.

Before Kenwright took over we consistently had operating profits which have magically turned into operating losses every year bar one with 24 million a year unexplained operating expenses up from 1 million when he took over which nobody seems willing to explain.

And when Kenwright took over we had a net asset position which bellieve it or not has turned into a significan net liability during his tenure.

Well, apart from that Jay, Kenwright and the board are doing well... LOL. As a well known pundit would say 'you couldn't make it up, could you'.

Apols, for the benefit of those of us who arent accountants... Is the following an example of Asset Stripping?

Kenwright: "We will never sell Rooney, not even for £50m"

Birch six months later: "I've just looked at the books and you need to sell Rooney"

Kenwright (picks up phone): "FFS ... Get me Taggart"

Allegedly....

Jay, I really think you are onto something big here. Having looked at othe clubs accounts, guess what I found? All clubs in the premier league have increased their debts since 1999. Not a single team has reduced. Have a look at the following stats which clearly show we are terribly managed compared to the rest of our peers:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2011/05/18/sportscribddoc.pdf

And something weirder I found, all the teams have also SOLD ASSETS during that period. But even more compelling still, all clubs have also increased their 'other operating costs' significantly in that time frame. You are right, it cant be due to changes in reporting rules, or football clubs actually costing more to run. Accounts audited by proffesional institutions? Nah, they are in on it to. Probably planted by the clubs.

And could we say the main reason for decreased profits is higher amortisation charges from players? registrations coupled with significantly lower profits on disposal of players? registrations? Are clubs are less able to rely on transfer income to convert operating losses to pre-tax profits? Nah, of course not. Its just bad management.

There is some deviant malicious activity going on and I'm sure you will get to the bottom of it. Hats off Sherlock Harris, the Everton world salutes you.

"Moyes clings to his players like prescious toys"... As you say his undoubted skill is finding/developing the talent so why should he let go, why should his plans be blown out of the water by the inadequate running at the top. Without David Moyes we would now be playing the likes of Exeter. You criticise him but without him would be Armagedon.

Dan #12
If you are happy with the way EFC is being run financially then hats off to you.

You are obviously among the few contented souls around Goodison.

Why dont you apply for one of the PR jobs they could certainly use your talent for making them sound better than they are.

You may even be revered like Ian Ross.

`Prior to 1999 our debt was lower and we made operating profits`... and we were almost always fighting relegation! When Bill took over, he vowed to back his manager and did this by mortgaging assets as it was impossible to increase income streams.

Misguided? Maybe, but he did it for us and all who wanted to see the good times return to Goodison!

Dan,

Our club is struggling to break even after several seasons of top 8 finishes in the richest league in the world. Who is responsible if not the board? Or should we just sit and do nothing because there are other clubs down the road who also struggle to break even?!

Wake up and smell the coffee. How are we going to replace Cahill, Distin, Neville etc in the next few years?

#13 "Without David Moyes we would now be playing the likes of Exeter. You criticise him but without him would be Armagedon."

Seeing as you must have a machine which can transverse through parallel universes to play out the above as fact, can I have a go? or are you trying to use an unprovable statement as the basis of an argument? Rather daft statement if you ask me John, unless of course you can prove it......

Doddy, just read your contribution and as always it portrays a positive slant.

It also perhaps portrays where the clubs issues lie, i.e.not being able to increase income streams. This leads to all the issues we all discuss and will be the one that needs sorting in the longer term

Jay, I apologise if I sounded so patronising. The point I am trying to get across, is just because you dont understand something, it doesnt mean it is badly managed. I see now when anybody uses their own common sense to challenge statements, the name 'Ian Ross' is mentioned to insinuate the 'club plant' policy again. I have given you an independant example of Premier League debt and how we fare in the scheme of things, and you dismiss it completely without comment. You refuse to accept the facts even when presented with them. I dont think everything is rosy at all with our club. I think we need a new chairman who can take us forward. The difference between you and I, is I just dont honestly believe that any billionaire has ever approached our club, and I dont believe that the club is not for sale.

Football financing mechanisms are a lot more complicated than you or I could ever understand. Its very easy for us to point at figures on an account sheet, and suggest its bad management. But without a detailed understanding, how can we judge? I honestly dont know what the figures relating to 'other operatings costs' specifically are. All I can do is do some digging, and compare it to other clubs which shows that our costs are proportionately no different when measured against revenue. Businesses are much better judged against its financial operating climate. If you look at any football club as a single entity, their business plans make absolutely no sense whatsoever in the real world. None of them are designed to ever make money, they are all geared towards how much debt they can incur without going under. Of course with exception to Chelsea and City, who run on hand outs without any form of 'business acumen' whatsoever.

Danny Broderick, how have you come up with the assumption that we are in the richest league in the world? Are you aware that the Premier League alone is accountable for more than 50% of the ENTIRE DEBT IN EUROPE?? Yes, thats every footballing club (732 in total) in all divisions across europe. I make the same point to you as I make to others, your talking about things you dont seem to understand.

Dan, you seem to have a good idea about how the money works, so can you help me understand a bit more about the "operating costs" as this seems to occupy many posters thoughts.

A bit of expansion on your post at 12 would be greatly appreciated if it helps me understand the stuff. Cheers

Dan the clubs that you mention sold assets but they replaced the assets they sold, what have Everton done?

Dan,

The Premier League is not in debt ? fact. It is the most watched league in the world, generates the most income and distributes this to its members. The amount that it distributes is more than any other league in the world. The fact that some of the clubs in the league are in debt does not alter the fact that it is the richest league in the world. If you are going to lecture people, at least get your facts right.

By the way, debt in itself is not a bad thing,as long as it is manageable debt. The problem we have got is that,due to mismanagement,we have created a debt that we don't have the means to service, hence the recent fire sale of our 1st team squad which is going to see us struggle to fill the bench in some games this season...

Moyes would have been crucified if he had've let Arteta go instead of paying him an increased salary, which at the time most supporters thought he was worth.

Dan,
apology accepted.

You were extremely patronising and sarcastic.

Nonetheless you have a valid point of view which I do not share.

Other clubs have these large debts because of their assets on the pitch.

For example Man U can buy Rooney for 27 million and then sell Ronaldo for 80 million.

They are operating in a different league than us.

We sell a player for 10 million and get a couple of loan signings in.

The conclusion myself and others have formed is that we are not fit financially to be in the same class as Man U etc and that is not because of Kenwright not being a billionaire it is because the club have had no vision for the last 15 years.

The last investment in Goodison was the Park end development by Peter Johnson.

We have handful of corporate suites compared to most other top Premiership clubs, our merchandising effort is dire and yet we still do not have a plan.

We have relied on Moyes frugal ways for too long now.

WE cannot continue to sell off players from an already threadbare squad with no other assets to sell or mortgage.

We need new leadership urgently.

Surely Everton have tried to do what Leeds did to a lesser extent in Mortgaging and borrowing to the hilt to buy and pay the salaries for players in the hope of hitting the European gold mine? They failed and now they are in plan B mode which will be painful because it means paying down the debts. It's very simple really and surely no change of board is going to change that unless it is to somebody who has money of their own to invest.

Football is getting itself back into the real world except for the Oligarch or Sheik financed clubs like City and Chelsea or those with fantastic income like United. The days when we can compete with these clubs has now gone and I hope for the day when these parasites go and form their own European League and let clubs like us compete on a level playing field with a team of players in the main which we develop ourselves.

Btw, wasn't it wonderful to see Rodwell and Ross in the U21s and playing so well? Amongst all of this dreadful negativity over the club there are some brightspots. I see our homegrown players as a massive plus and I include Osman and Hibbert. Our bargain buys like Jags and Baines are also a great plus and have shown incredible loyalty when both could easily have gone for Gold away from Everton.

Jay #8, I really don't understand where you're getting that view from.

In 1999 our EBITDA was £4.1m, in 2000 it was £5.8m, in 2005 it had grown to £11.8m, back down to £4.7m in 2006 and in 2009 it was back up to £8.1m.

Last year, primarily due to growth in wages, EBITDA dropped to a below-par £900k. As you can see, the idea that Kenwright has destroyed a profitable business is laughable.

That's not to say we're some sort of Goldman Sachs or Apple. Clearly, we've got problems, mostly as a result of decisions taken at the executive level. However, drawing quick conclusions from isolated numbers in the accounts is dangerous to say the least.

And, 'asset stripping' as you call it, usually results in short term profit being distributed to shareholders for a quick gain. I think we can all agree that this isn't the case at Everton.

Selling assets is not asset stripping. It is selling assets.

The title should be If Bill had Brains.

Quick look on Wiki for definition of Asset Stripping:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_stripping

Any company doctor coming into Everton would immediately start slashing expenditure and that would inevitably mean disposing of highly paid players in the next window. On our behalf, Bill has `lived the dream` ON OUR BEHALF and it`s now turned into a nightmare.

The failure to secure a new stadium and thus increase income is at the very heart of his troubles. Forget finding £30M for Kings Dock ? the bill would have been three times that amount, at least ? and DK might well have presented similar problems. No-one with Bill`s limited means could have done any better and I totally refuse to believe there has ever been a queue of would-be buyers/ investors that Bill has repulsed.

I think he was always `in over his head` but, seeing some of the clowns who have purchased clubs in recent years, I think he has done well to keep us where we are.

Replacing the present incumbents with `a visionary Board` as per Blue Union demands sounds great but vision without the means to realise it is a totally worthless aim.

Richard #28 "No one with Bill`s limited means could have done any better" So, according to you, the abject failure of Bill and the board to do anything worthwhile in 10 years except sell all assets could not be bettered by ANYBODY with business acumen??

"Replacing the present incumbents with `a visionary Board` as per Blue Union demands sounds great but vision without the means to realise it is a totally worthless aim. "

Ahhh, the hypocrisy. You really have contradicted yourself here Richard. You have just described Kenwright (who nobody could've bettered, in your opinion) taking over from Peter Johnson! (except the "vision" part.)

So is it better to take over a club without the "means" or "vision" like Bill did?

"Get decent transfer funds and find the next big thing"

Is Moyes good at finding the next big thing anymore? Granted Cahill and Arteta were the best value for a minimal outlay at the times and have proved to be a success over the years, aside from Coleman who is still developing, I'm not sure Moyes is able to any longer pick up the next big player.

Players from the Championship cost roughly anywhere between £5-£10M so in terms of affordability that is pretty much out of the question. The only way he'll be able to keep Everton ticking along is soley on youth, the like of Barkley and perhaps one or two other that may be coming through the ranks. In my opinion, gone are the days where Moyes picks up bargains or even has an eye for potential talent.

No credit for markedly improving our Prem position ? or even keeping us in the top half of that League when so many clubs have dropped out? You are a hard man to please, Andrew... or a wistful fool!

Oh and Richard, please refrain from telling me that Bill Kenwright has fucked this club sideways "on my behalf".

"No credit for markedly improving our Prem position ? or even keeping us in the top half of that League when so many clubs have dropped out?"

No, Richard, the manager gets the accolades for finishing in the "top 10" whoooooo hooooooo, not the Chairman.

"You are a hard man to please, Andrew... or a wistful fool!"

I won't settle, like you, for a turd with a red ribbon wrapped around it if that's what you mean.

Andrew, it's not a matter of finding somebody with business acumen, that is easy. We have to find business acumen and somebody with the money to buy out the present board. EFC is not a buy in the present business climate. As far as I can see Everton sold their assets to buy players and pay wages and they now have to sell because that approach has failed.

There are football players out there that are worth £75 grand a week & more.... Unfortunately EFC have none of these players at the moment. Arteta & Cahill on the contracts they were/are on was and is madness.

Martin #34 "As far as I can see Everton sold their assets to buy players and pay wages and they now have to sell because that approach has failed."

The above has been the approach for the last TEN years, do you honestly think that in that time any plan at all could not be implemented and we would not be seeing the benefit now?

IT IS a question of business acumen, thanks for proving my point. Try harder.

Doddy, BK has lived the dream for him but most certainly not for me. He's retained ownership far too long, made some atrocious business decisions to the detriment of the club, including two failed ground moves, and his admittance during the meeting with the BU guys that he still won't consider allowing anyone else to sell the club despite 12 years of failure to do so.

Oliver, non-topic question but by any chance are you related to a Peter Molloy that used to be a careers adviser then French teacher?

So what's your suggestion, Andrew? Remember, it can't cost anything.

See post #29, Martin, I believe it does not take a genius to work out my views.

The speculation for young Barkley leaving is already gaining momentum. Bill must be wetting his pants in anticipation. Hopefully this act will end up with his balls rotting.

I forgot to add to the OP, I believe I heard Moyes state that Kenwright was the man in charge of offering/ negotiating player contracts a while back.

Oliver #35

NO player is worth £75k a week.

The contracts of players have nothing to do with the manager. They are between the player, his agent and the CEO/Chairman of the club. I highly doubt Moyes would be involved. The one thing I will say against Arteta, with everyone saying he's a great guy for taking a pay cut of £20k a week, then why didn't he ask for £55k instead of £75k when negotiating his last Everton deal? It ain't like we had money to burn last year neither!

Have to admit it wasn`t David Moyes who agreed to pay the manager £65K a week-if that is truly what he`s getting!

I think Bill is more to blame than Moyes, but, as most people know, I think Moyes has done his bit. It's been hazed over briefly, but his "talent" in finding young prospects or lower league gems has waned.

The latest lower league player to be brought up was Beckford, and now he's not even at the club, and we got a low price for him in a time when most clubs are getting seriously crazy fees for mediocre players.

With Barkley showing some promise (good in 3 career games - start shining the pedestal), no doubt Moyes will garner some praise for his development. To those who believe this, I say this: When a player is that naturally gifted at the age of 17, a la Rooney at 16, it isn't the manager that has done that. It's the kids genes/god/lack of Freudian obsession for his mother - whichever school you subscribe to, it was just going ot happen for some of these players.

True, Moyes spotted talent in Rodwell, Coleman, Gosling, et al. Rodwell is pretty much a pot noodle now, Coleman is good, but a lot of people aren't convinced he is as good as some say, and the less said about Gosling the better (when was his last football appearance?).

The basic summary of Moyes' talent in bringing youth through is a 3 gamer, and Anichebe - oh, and Vaughan who made us a whopping 2million after 6 years of free medical treatment.

Transferring this to the OP theme, if BIll had balls, he'd have told Moyes to occasionally sell one of his prospects when the stocks were higher. Rodwell last summer would have picked up a good fee had we pimped him, and I seem to recall offers for Vaughan being slightly higher a few seasons ago.

Bill's biggest failure is not controlling his troups, leaving the fate of a struggling business in the hands of a football coach who has publicly claimed to not have much to do with the business side of business.

Andrew, a genius not perhaps but I don't have a crystal ball neither. I ask again, board out and then what?

Chaos and meltdown!

Martin #46

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with one small step"

Andrew, and hopefully it's started whichever way things go. :-)

Andrew @ 42....
"NO player is worth £75k a week".

I would disagree with that Andrew.I'm presuming your opinion is that this type of money for playing football is obscene?
However,it is unfortunately a reality that football players earn such sums.
My thoughts are if you are a striker that is consistently sticking the ball in the back of the net,or a skilful midfielder that scores plenty and is a playmaker or a goalkeeper of the "southall" mould in other words game winners you should command top dollar..
The premiership is full of players earning huge sums of money that simply are not worth it,and this is a sad reflection on the game.
Even if you are not the greatest footballer in the world you still have a chance these days if you are a good "athlete"..
Years ago if you could play a bit ,you were in the side so to speak,that does not apply these days,the skilful side of the game haas suffered something terrible...there are exceptions to the rule of course...Barcelona

Andrew @ 42....
"NO player is worth £75k a week".

I would disagree with that Andrew.I'm presuming your opinion is that this type of money for playing football is obscene?
However,it is unfortunately a reality that football players earn such sums.
My thoughts are if you are a striker that is consistently sticking the ball in the back of the net,or a skilful midfielder that scores plenty and is a playmaker or a goalkeeper of the "southall" mould in other words game winners you should command top dollar..
The premiership is full of players earning huge sums of money that simply are not worth it,and this is a sad reflection on the game.
Even if you are not the greatest footballer in the world you still have a chance these days if you are a good "athlete"..
Years ago if you could play a bit ,you were in the side so to speak,that does not apply these days,the skilful side of the game haas suffered something terrible...there are exceptions to the rule of course...Barcelona

Doddy and Martin, what do the board do now? BK runs up debts and has sold everything to pay them off and each last one of the board members have invested £0.00 in all the time they have been here, they do nothing for marketing the club, bring any innovation or other positive business benefits so lose them and fill the board room with chimpanzees and you'd quite literally see no difference.

I can sort of understand how we got here - BK went for broke to get us a decent team, get into Europe and move to a new stadium. His plan came unstuck for a variety of reasons (eg, unable to compete with the Man Citys of the world, DK not approved, GFC etc).

The biggest worry for me now is that we don't seem to have any long term plan to deal with this situation. Waiting around for a buyer is not the answer IMHO. The board need to do some soul-searching, come up with a new plan, and articulate it to the whole club.

To summarise:

1. there has been little information communicated about long term plans from the club since the demise of the Kirkby stadium. The best we have had is Kenwright stating that we are still looking at 'sites in the city' but that there is no money to develop them. This is therefore a dead end so why keep bringing it up? The only possible reason is that there is still hope that a financial partner will appear much like Tesco did - or perhaps there is only hope that there is hope.

2. It has been stated over and over that there is no serious buyer out there. We know that they are appearing but have all not come back when it comes to talking business - we are led to believe after looking at the books and doing a little research - which tells us what we need to know about how attractive the club is. OR there is a hint that some have looked more serious but Kenwright hasn't thought them suitable (perhaps that would be a good question to ask him).

3. We are led to believe redevelopment is going to be complex and expensive - and I would agree it is the last option we should be looking at - but we ARE at that stage now unless there is hope of a move - back to point 1.

In terms of business then much of the pressure building up from fans would be resolved if the club would make a decision about moving, make a clear statement if there is currently any realistic hope of a move, which means any real hope of a financial partner. If not then put that one to bed and tell us if there are dates when we could start acquiring land to redevelop from the council.

The cause of much of this unrest is that we are in an information vacuum at a critical time in our history. We need a clear idea of where we are going to be in 10 years and more than anything the board needs to show that is has a clear plan.

I suspect the board does know and the answer is that we have to move. In either case we need to accept that we cannot chase to top 6 any longer and hope to succeed and generate lots of money in the Champions league - it isn't going to happen that game is over.

Everyone - fans, shareholders, owners and most importantly the manager - need to be together on this so that funds can be diverted away from the first team into funds to build facilities for the future.

It is a huge risk and will unsettle Moyes and several players. For years we have heard the line that every available penny goes into the first team and that is the reason why our manager stays. This would be a big change, but we cannot carry on as we are.

When did we sell Baines?

ciaran #53... just about sums it up mate. Kenwright has done a Ridsdale... gambled our club. And lost.

Nightmare. Kenwright won't sell unless he's gonna get his money back and Barclays wont step in. They aint bothered what division we're in so long as they get their money back.

Hate to say it, but It's gonna take us going bust before we make any progress.

Under the present incumbent, I suppose it's only a matter of time...