Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
A different angle on an old story
By Joe Rimmer :: 13/09/2011
82 Comments (»Last)
I have been watching and listening from afar to the story of Bill Kenwright... as far as Kuwait far. Two years ago, you would have found me as a supporter of Bill. Recently, things have changed; my opinion has changed and I have seen a different side to the situation and to the club.
However, I have a huge amount of admiration, trust and even affection for his efforts. When I was watching the Blues in England, my thoughts were dominated by team selections, player ratings, laughing at the reds, hoping for the top four, hoping for a cup run and in reality the last few years we went close. The FA Cup Final, the League Cup Semi-Final and the two 5th places were close to success, but we have now gone over the peak and are ready for a new era.
The reason I say this is because I was reading the Friday or Saturday Mail (don't know which because it is not published over here) in an article Bill talks about not wanting to be here next year, he is wanting to sell the club, has been for three years. Okay, good: the Blue Union want him out and he wants to go, he admitted it (whether Blue Union believe him, is for another article).
So my solution is simple. Help him go. Advertise the club for sale everywhere and anywhere, call TalkSport, BBC World News, articles in tabloids, start Twitter trends ? find Kenwright a buyer, change the wording from "Kenwright Out" to "Find Kenwright a buyer".
Offer to raise money to pay for the likes of Martin Broughton to find a buyer, effectively my solution is not to get in Kenwright's way but to help him on his way. He wants to go so I think the Blue Union should help him do that.
If the Blue Union were able to find a suitable buyer, then it would lead to two possible situations.
1. The club is sold everyone is happy, Bill and the Blue Union, the club are in a situation to fight for glory.
2. The deal breaks down because of unrealistic demands by Kenwright. Surely, then his chairmanship would be untenable.
But why, is it the job of The Blue Union? well I don't think it is; however, they are up against a very charismatic, PR savvy, massive Evertonian, who is saying all of the right things in the media, with the manager and squad on board. The fan base is divided because it has become a personal issue. I think it needs to come away from the personal and head towards what all fans can get behind.
My objective is simple: to find a buyer for Everton who can bring the good times and trophies back.
Will it take more work for Blue Union? ? not in my opinion, they are excellent at generating publicity, so we change the publicity from Kenwright's faults, to what he wants ? a Buyer.
They will not be seen as negative because they are doing something positive, we are finding him a buyer.
Find a buyer and call Bill's bluff.
Reader Comments (82)
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Andy Peers
2 Posted 14/09/2011 at 00:27:25
2 Posted 14/09/2011 at 00:27:25
Is there no updates from the 3 buyers from last week. Why has the press not been asking Bill for a progress report? More importantly, why has Bill not volunteered any? Seems like it must have been a smoke screen to combat any Blue Union efforts to cause waves amongst the board. Maybe if they threaten to protest at the Wigan game he will be up to 5 buyers!
Chris Leyland
3 Posted 14/09/2011 at 00:30:48
3 Posted 14/09/2011 at 00:30:48
How do people know how much the shareholders want for the club? Have you made a bid only to be told it is £100m or have you read it in a paper/on a forum and taken it as the truth?
I am neither a Kenwright "apologist" (I hate this term, which is used as a phrase to somehow add moral superiority to your own arguements) or a Kenwright hater (or should that be a Blue Union "apologist"?).
I am neither a Kenwright "apologist" (I hate this term, which is used as a phrase to somehow add moral superiority to your own arguements) or a Kenwright hater (or should that be a Blue Union "apologist"?).
However, we are a mid-table club with around the 10th highest average crowds in the Prem. We are located in one of the most deprived areas of the country. We are the second team within that area, with a global brand as the other team and we are based 35 miles from the two richest clubs in the league. We have a large debt and an old ground. We have a high wages-to-turnover ratio and we have have little or no assets.
Whilst people can, quite legitimately, point to the current board's failings in allowing some of these things to be the case, what they can't do is suddenly make new owners want to buy the club with all these issues on the table. It serves no purpose to decry Kenwright's past failings at present. This won't help sell the club, although it may make us feel better.
Martin Mason
4 Posted 14/09/2011 at 03:15:05
4 Posted 14/09/2011 at 03:15:05
Great, should be easy to find somebody who'll fork out 100mil for nothing in return?
Eric Myles
5 Posted 14/09/2011 at 03:50:26
5 Posted 14/09/2011 at 03:50:26
It's happened over the park, Martin.
Martin Mason
6 Posted 14/09/2011 at 05:37:02
6 Posted 14/09/2011 at 05:37:02
Eric, that is correct but Liverpool are a world wide brand and buyers could see a return if they can achieve some kind of success on the field. Everton are not a brand and they have little chance of providing any return for an investor even with the best of financial management. We don't have the ground or fan base to generate the income needed to be successful now?
Ryan Holroyd
7 Posted 14/09/2011 at 07:01:54
7 Posted 14/09/2011 at 07:01:54
And why are we not atractive to a buyer?
Kenwright should have been HOUNDED out after Kings Dock. That cost us our 'once in a life time opportunity' to become a giant of the English game.
One man's pride cost Everton big time.
For me, it's not about transfers etc, it's all about KD and that is why I have such contempt for the man.
I always have and I always will and no parading of his mum at Goodison on a match day or talk about his uncle Cyril will ever change my feelings toward him.
Kenwright should have been HOUNDED out after Kings Dock. That cost us our 'once in a life time opportunity' to become a giant of the English game.
One man's pride cost Everton big time.
For me, it's not about transfers etc, it's all about KD and that is why I have such contempt for the man.
I always have and I always will and no parading of his mum at Goodison on a match day or talk about his uncle Cyril will ever change my feelings toward him.
Mike Green
8 Posted 14/09/2011 at 07:39:37
8 Posted 14/09/2011 at 07:39:37
Joe - there can only be two things preventing a sale - the terms, or the price. Get these right and Bill will have plenty of interest quick enough.
Eric Myles
9 Posted 14/09/2011 at 07:54:54
9 Posted 14/09/2011 at 07:54:54
Martin, if we're successful on the field then the global brand will grow and so will the income. Who were United and Chelsea before they started winning things?
Tom Hughes
10 Posted 14/09/2011 at 07:51:52
10 Posted 14/09/2011 at 07:51:52
Martin, you make us sound like Bootle FC. How have ALL other clubs managed to find new owners and investors......? Most recently even QPR who have a tiny ground, tiny fan base and are surrounded by many much bigger clubs, and have spent decades in the lower leagues? If the price and terms are right, there will be no shortage of candidates looking to secure the club that has won more league titles than Chelsea, Man City and Spurs put together.
Richard Tarleton
11 Posted 14/09/2011 at 09:59:49
11 Posted 14/09/2011 at 09:59:49
One of the alleged problems when Liverpool had their own Kenwright, the young Mr Moores, that led to the Gillett and Hicks fiasco was that he wanted to stay on the Board as Chairman. There may be a similar problem on this side of the park.
Alan McGuffog
12 Posted 14/09/2011 at 10:24:52
12 Posted 14/09/2011 at 10:24:52
I am expecting big, big news about these potential buyers as early as next week. I'm also looking forward to the book that Pete Townsend is writing.
Martin Mason
13 Posted 14/09/2011 at 10:33:11
13 Posted 14/09/2011 at 10:33:11
Eric, I agree that if we are successful then all else will follow but how do we become successful in the Premiership without the finanace to buy players.
Tom, you're right in that many teams have found new owners but how many have been successful once they've found new owners without spending half a billion pounds? There ia also a big difference in selling a London club and selling EFC.
Having said that, Stoke have obviously done well with new ground and an ever improving team. I don't know how they've done it though.
I just want to see us play football that we as Evertonians can be proud to watch. That would go a long way in removing the bad feelings.
Tom, you're right in that many teams have found new owners but how many have been successful once they've found new owners without spending half a billion pounds? There ia also a big difference in selling a London club and selling EFC.
Having said that, Stoke have obviously done well with new ground and an ever improving team. I don't know how they've done it though.
I just want to see us play football that we as Evertonians can be proud to watch. That would go a long way in removing the bad feelings.
Oliver Molloy
14 Posted 14/09/2011 at 10:45:46
14 Posted 14/09/2011 at 10:45:46
Eric @ 5 & Martin @ 6
If Liverpool do not qualify for the Champions League or win a trophy this season, just watch what happens!!
If Liverpool do not qualify for the Champions League or win a trophy this season, just watch what happens!!
Brian Waring
15 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:09:30
15 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:09:30
Martin (#12) "I don't know how they've done it though."
Maybe Stoke have done it Martin, because they are a well run club, who had a plan, implemented by people who have business acumen.
Maybe Stoke have done it Martin, because they are a well run club, who had a plan, implemented by people who have business acumen.
Eric Myles
16 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:10:30
16 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:10:30
Martin "how do we become successful in the Premiership without the finance to buy players" - well we sell the club to someone who is prepared to put their hand in their pockets.
"There ia also a big difference in selling a London club and selling EFC." - Come on, Tom's talking about QPR FFS!!!
"There ia also a big difference in selling a London club and selling EFC." - Come on, Tom's talking about QPR FFS!!!
Martin Mason
17 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:16:17
17 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:16:17
Oliver, LFC could be in big trouble if this throw of the dice fails. Mind you,they have spent but they have also sold and trimmed the wage bill too haven't they? What a bit of business getting 50 mil for the ladyboy but then spending 35 mil on Carroll. absolutely unbelievable
Brian, that is highly likely but I genuinely don't know how Stoke is run.
Eric, any London Club will sell easily especially if it's North of the River. I just can't understand how a club in Walton Liverpool doesn't get snapped up :-)
Brian, that is highly likely but I genuinely don't know how Stoke is run.
Eric, any London Club will sell easily especially if it's North of the River. I just can't understand how a club in Walton Liverpool doesn't get snapped up :-)
James Stewart
18 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:22:54
18 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:22:54
@ 15 Brian spot on. I want rid of the Everton board simply because they are incompetent at their job.
Alan Clarke
19 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:28:00
19 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:28:00
The Blue Union are in no position to sell the club and why should they be? They're a fans group. Why does Kenwright need any help? After all he said it himself, he's the best man to sell the club!
If Kenwright was serious about selling, he would take The Blue Union up on their idea of introducing an interim board. He could still have the final say on who he sells to and can still rule out selling to any types who live in 1 bedroom flats in Singapore (who, incidentally, was no less qualified to run a club than Uncle Bill).
It's the wrong thing to do, turn this back on the fans and say "well you do it then". As fans we're not privy to important information that you need to sell a multi-million pound business so we're in no position to sell it.
If Kenwright was serious about selling, he would take The Blue Union up on their idea of introducing an interim board. He could still have the final say on who he sells to and can still rule out selling to any types who live in 1 bedroom flats in Singapore (who, incidentally, was no less qualified to run a club than Uncle Bill).
It's the wrong thing to do, turn this back on the fans and say "well you do it then". As fans we're not privy to important information that you need to sell a multi-million pound business so we're in no position to sell it.
Danny Broderick
20 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:41:00
20 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:41:00
I agree with Alan,
It's the board's job to sell the club, and any failure to find a buyer would rebound negatively on the BU. Keep the pressure up, that's what the BU have to do...
It's the board's job to sell the club, and any failure to find a buyer would rebound negatively on the BU. Keep the pressure up, that's what the BU have to do...
Phil Martin
21 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:36:31
21 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:36:31
What a load of old pants:
"located next to two more established brands".
I'm sorry but so are Blackburn and QPR -and with a fraction of our history.
As for Man City, yes they had a new stadium (note NOT owned by the club). But since the sheihks were going to spend £700m, would it have mattered if their chosen club needed stadium redvelopment? Just would think what even half of that could've done for EFC in 2009 -when we were ar our peak.
Oh and have you ever been to East Manchester -near the Etihad Stadium? Gorton, West Gorton etc (where they filmed 'Shameless')... It's a fucking dive -even more deprived than Walton.
So lets stop making excuses and show some ambition.
"located next to two more established brands".
I'm sorry but so are Blackburn and QPR -and with a fraction of our history.
As for Man City, yes they had a new stadium (note NOT owned by the club). But since the sheihks were going to spend £700m, would it have mattered if their chosen club needed stadium redvelopment? Just would think what even half of that could've done for EFC in 2009 -when we were ar our peak.
Oh and have you ever been to East Manchester -near the Etihad Stadium? Gorton, West Gorton etc (where they filmed 'Shameless')... It's a fucking dive -even more deprived than Walton.
So lets stop making excuses and show some ambition.
Danny Broderick
22 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:45:57
22 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:45:57
Martin,
The way Stoke have done it is to make sure they are a well run business who don't make a loss. Wolves are another one. By making a profit, you can then invest in the ground/team. It's the only sustainable way to do it.
The way Stoke have done it is to make sure they are a well run business who don't make a loss. Wolves are another one. By making a profit, you can then invest in the ground/team. It's the only sustainable way to do it.
We've already got Arteta off the wage bill, along with the Yak etc. If we were bought out and the buyer cleared our debt, that would free up £4.5 million a year in interest payments also. We really would not be such an unattractive prospect if the debt was repaid and the club was managed a bit better.
The BU really need to find out how much the board are looking to sell for. If it really is £100 million, they then need to put pressure on to make the board lower their asking price. The asking price has to be the stumbling block - for every excuse put forward for why we haven't been bought, even unfashionable clubs like Leicester and Brighton have been bought out for God's sake.
Aiden Doyle
23 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:56:47
23 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:56:47
The Stoke thing?s not the least bit surprising.
Three years ago they were a club with a Premier League income but with a squad full of Championship players being paid Championship level wages. That obviously left a decent surplus with which they?ve been able to develop the squad over the last few seasons.
From here on though, they?re an established Premier League club full of Premier League players being paid Premier League wages. They?re about to hit the same wall we did.
Three years ago they were a club with a Premier League income but with a squad full of Championship players being paid Championship level wages. That obviously left a decent surplus with which they?ve been able to develop the squad over the last few seasons.
From here on though, they?re an established Premier League club full of Premier League players being paid Premier League wages. They?re about to hit the same wall we did.
Ciarán McGlone
24 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:57:03
24 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:57:03
A reasonable article...But I fail to see how you can ignore whether Knewright wants to actually sell - when coming to the conclusion that we shoudl help him sell it.
Surely there is no dichotomy here - one is inextricably linked to the other...If he doesn't want to sell, then what would be the point of 'helping him'?
There's also the obvious elephant in the room, that he actually thinks he's the 'best person to sell the club'...some would say this dellusion would warrant any 'help' as both unwanted and pointless.
Surely there is no dichotomy here - one is inextricably linked to the other...If he doesn't want to sell, then what would be the point of 'helping him'?
There's also the obvious elephant in the room, that he actually thinks he's the 'best person to sell the club'...some would say this dellusion would warrant any 'help' as both unwanted and pointless.
Simon Harris
25 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:56:28
25 Posted 14/09/2011 at 11:56:28
Joe. that's a nice idea and at least you're looking for solutions to try and abate the degeneration.
At the last EGM (yes that one) in 2008, BK stated that in the previous 12 months he'd met 14 or 15 interested parties.
That's a significant number of potential buyers and since then the interest doesn't appear to have waned.
But why, despite so much interest in EFC do all these potential suitors fail to deliver? There are many reasons given: Economic downturn, dilapidated ground, poor brand, locality, over inflated asking price......
Whatever the reason, they keep on coming (usually in 3's?) It could make you question what happens when they meet BK? - Do they disappear, like the 'nice man' from Liverpool who wanted to invest, but after an hour and a half of talking with BK, didn't want to put his kids through it. (who could blame him) Or do they take one look at the books, shudder, and then scarper?
Whatever the reason(s) they keep on coming, and what the BU have done is seek answers from the club (directly or via the press) to questions like Andy Peers #2 raises.
Without an EGM and a toothless local press it's left to the BU to keep asking the questions and pressuring the club to re-evaluate it's strategy for selling.
At least there's still plenty of interest in our wonderful club.
At the last EGM (yes that one) in 2008, BK stated that in the previous 12 months he'd met 14 or 15 interested parties.
That's a significant number of potential buyers and since then the interest doesn't appear to have waned.
But why, despite so much interest in EFC do all these potential suitors fail to deliver? There are many reasons given: Economic downturn, dilapidated ground, poor brand, locality, over inflated asking price......
Whatever the reason, they keep on coming (usually in 3's?) It could make you question what happens when they meet BK? - Do they disappear, like the 'nice man' from Liverpool who wanted to invest, but after an hour and a half of talking with BK, didn't want to put his kids through it. (who could blame him) Or do they take one look at the books, shudder, and then scarper?
Whatever the reason(s) they keep on coming, and what the BU have done is seek answers from the club (directly or via the press) to questions like Andy Peers #2 raises.
Without an EGM and a toothless local press it's left to the BU to keep asking the questions and pressuring the club to re-evaluate it's strategy for selling.
At least there's still plenty of interest in our wonderful club.
Ciarán McGlone
26 Posted 14/09/2011 at 12:27:30
26 Posted 14/09/2011 at 12:27:30
"But why, despite so much interest in EFC do all these potential suitors fail to deliver?"
-----------------
Simon, there would appear to be some indication of why this happens in martin's samuel's wallowing piece of drivel..
In this piece, Kenwright openly admits bringing in a potential buyer, and convincing them not to buy...
Here's the piece...
"'You know, I've sat with people who wanted to invest in the club and there was one guy, a very nice man, a businessman in Liverpool, and he listened for an hour and a half and finally, he said, "Bill, I don't want to be you. I want to be able to take my kids to school"
A shameful admission, which was probably designed to show how difficult a job our chariman has - but in actual fact shows how incompetent he is.
-----------------
Simon, there would appear to be some indication of why this happens in martin's samuel's wallowing piece of drivel..
In this piece, Kenwright openly admits bringing in a potential buyer, and convincing them not to buy...
Here's the piece...
"'You know, I've sat with people who wanted to invest in the club and there was one guy, a very nice man, a businessman in Liverpool, and he listened for an hour and a half and finally, he said, "Bill, I don't want to be you. I want to be able to take my kids to school"
A shameful admission, which was probably designed to show how difficult a job our chariman has - but in actual fact shows how incompetent he is.
Steve Pugh
27 Posted 14/09/2011 at 12:37:19
27 Posted 14/09/2011 at 12:37:19
Didn't one of the 3 potential suitors walk when BK refused to budge on his £100m price tag?
Joe Rimmer
28 Posted 14/09/2011 at 12:58:01
28 Posted 14/09/2011 at 12:58:01
Alan @ 19.
I agree with you that its not the position of the fans group to find a buyer, however, I feel that protesting about a chairman that openly admits he wants to 'be gone within a year' is doomed to failure. I believe that its doomed to failure because Evertonians are loyal some to the point of fault and until there is REAL proof that he is asking too much, until there is real proof that Buyers are out there but put off by the asking price then there will always be a large section of Evertonians supporting Bill Kenwright. In my opinion there is too much pettiness, the boos were louder than the cheers, the cheers were louder than boos, 2000 protesters against 30, its irrelevant. Find a buyer and prove what he is asking, get his demands.
Blue Union need to state the end goal and find a way of getting there. The first thing I would do would be to e mail, phone or beg Lord Grantchester, get him onside, ask advice, what is his stance. Everyone wants a new buyer so lets concentrate on making sure the world knows verton is for sale. My perception is that it is getting twisted into a 'your protesting because the chairman is not good enough but he wants to go'.
I agree with you that its not the position of the fans group to find a buyer, however, I feel that protesting about a chairman that openly admits he wants to 'be gone within a year' is doomed to failure. I believe that its doomed to failure because Evertonians are loyal some to the point of fault and until there is REAL proof that he is asking too much, until there is real proof that Buyers are out there but put off by the asking price then there will always be a large section of Evertonians supporting Bill Kenwright. In my opinion there is too much pettiness, the boos were louder than the cheers, the cheers were louder than boos, 2000 protesters against 30, its irrelevant. Find a buyer and prove what he is asking, get his demands.
Blue Union need to state the end goal and find a way of getting there. The first thing I would do would be to e mail, phone or beg Lord Grantchester, get him onside, ask advice, what is his stance. Everyone wants a new buyer so lets concentrate on making sure the world knows verton is for sale. My perception is that it is getting twisted into a 'your protesting because the chairman is not good enough but he wants to go'.
Phil Hoyle
29 Posted 14/09/2011 at 13:31:14
29 Posted 14/09/2011 at 13:31:14
Good to see a bit more of a positive article on here. I am fed up with the negativity that comes from a section of our supporters. Over the past 10 years I have lost count of the number of times I have read negative comments from 'get Moyes out' brigade - my question is who do you replace him with. Especially as we have no money who would want to take the job? I think he has worked wonders especially thinking back to the number of relegation scraps we were involved in during the 90's.
This brings me onto finding a buyer. Should Kenwright sell to anyone just to appease the minority of fans wanting new ownership (although it is really about money)!! I don't want to find Everton in a position that the likes of Birmingham are where they had a new owner who was going to invest and now they are in all types of financial trouble despite denials.
Whether you like to admit it of not the Kenwright/Moyes era has bought a period of stability. Yes I remember the glory years of the 80's and the free flowing football whilst winning trophies and yes I want to see that again but football is a different animal now. Unless we get a buyer that has the financial leverage of the likes we have seen at Man City, Chelsea and Spurs don't expect anything more than a top 10 finish. We will still lose our best players to 'more successful' teams and whilst we may be in a better position to replace them with greater finances at our disposal don't expect money to buy the success we all crave for.
This brings me onto finding a buyer. Should Kenwright sell to anyone just to appease the minority of fans wanting new ownership (although it is really about money)!! I don't want to find Everton in a position that the likes of Birmingham are where they had a new owner who was going to invest and now they are in all types of financial trouble despite denials.
Whether you like to admit it of not the Kenwright/Moyes era has bought a period of stability. Yes I remember the glory years of the 80's and the free flowing football whilst winning trophies and yes I want to see that again but football is a different animal now. Unless we get a buyer that has the financial leverage of the likes we have seen at Man City, Chelsea and Spurs don't expect anything more than a top 10 finish. We will still lose our best players to 'more successful' teams and whilst we may be in a better position to replace them with greater finances at our disposal don't expect money to buy the success we all crave for.
Alan Clarke
30 Posted 14/09/2011 at 13:37:52
30 Posted 14/09/2011 at 13:37:52
The webmaster on NSNO has had several conversations with our saviour Lord Grantchester. The man so many hail as the man with the money to haul us out of our sticky situation. Grantchester's not arsed. Just like Kenwright and Carter, he loves the status. He's as much to blame as Kenwright.
If Kenwright is serious about selling and can so publicly state his intention to sell then why not just name his price? It would put to bed a lot of these arguments about whether he does actually want to sell or not. It's one thing saying you want to sell and something completely different meaning it.
I'd like to sell my house for £2million but until someone offers me £2million I'm not really arsed about moving. I've done a really good job on the lawn and the buyer with a spare £2million has to reassure me they've got the best interests of my lawn at heart. If not I'm not selling. I keep saying that I don't want to be living there in 1 year's time but people don't seem to value my 3 bed semi-detached house with no driveway the same as me.
In their meeting with Kenwright, The Blue Union were banned from asking about the asking price. Why is that? Is it because Kenwright knows he will lose all support when we hear how much he wants for it? At the moment, Kenwright doesn't see the fans against him as a credible threat. He thinks he can just ride this storm out and maintain control. Unless we really put him under pressure, Kenwright will still be in charge in 5 years time rolling out the same old crap and it seems a lot of fans will keep falling for it.
If Kenwright is serious about selling and can so publicly state his intention to sell then why not just name his price? It would put to bed a lot of these arguments about whether he does actually want to sell or not. It's one thing saying you want to sell and something completely different meaning it.
I'd like to sell my house for £2million but until someone offers me £2million I'm not really arsed about moving. I've done a really good job on the lawn and the buyer with a spare £2million has to reassure me they've got the best interests of my lawn at heart. If not I'm not selling. I keep saying that I don't want to be living there in 1 year's time but people don't seem to value my 3 bed semi-detached house with no driveway the same as me.
In their meeting with Kenwright, The Blue Union were banned from asking about the asking price. Why is that? Is it because Kenwright knows he will lose all support when we hear how much he wants for it? At the moment, Kenwright doesn't see the fans against him as a credible threat. He thinks he can just ride this storm out and maintain control. Unless we really put him under pressure, Kenwright will still be in charge in 5 years time rolling out the same old crap and it seems a lot of fans will keep falling for it.
Tom Hughes
31 Posted 14/09/2011 at 13:48:23
31 Posted 14/09/2011 at 13:48:23
Phil,
Make no mistake...... Moyes efforts have provided the stability not the board's. Their job is to solve the off the pitch problems by way of providing better facilities and funds for the manager by maximising income streams..... for this they have been the worst in the league! Promising everything and delivering nothing, and missing opportunities.
What you say we have to simply expect as the best we can be, is the very reason why there has to be change. Expecting mediocrity is tantamount to admitting failure. We are Everton. We have won more league titles than the 3 teams you mention put together. What they expect, we should be eclipsing... if not, why not?
Time for change!!!
Make no mistake...... Moyes efforts have provided the stability not the board's. Their job is to solve the off the pitch problems by way of providing better facilities and funds for the manager by maximising income streams..... for this they have been the worst in the league! Promising everything and delivering nothing, and missing opportunities.
What you say we have to simply expect as the best we can be, is the very reason why there has to be change. Expecting mediocrity is tantamount to admitting failure. We are Everton. We have won more league titles than the 3 teams you mention put together. What they expect, we should be eclipsing... if not, why not?
Time for change!!!
Dan Brierley
32 Posted 14/09/2011 at 15:48:41
32 Posted 14/09/2011 at 15:48:41
Tom Hughes, I am as proud as the next Evertonian about our history.
But I dont understand what relevance it has today, except for giving people that warm nostalgic feeling. The times we won titles, football was a different game completely in terms of finances. The most competitve teams since the Premiership all have something in common: they all spend the most money. As you can see, this has nothing to do with history. Man City are now buying their way into that band, having spent more than 500 MILLION pounds. This is what it takes to compete. Having a glorious history adds nothing to your balance sheet.
But I dont understand what relevance it has today, except for giving people that warm nostalgic feeling. The times we won titles, football was a different game completely in terms of finances. The most competitve teams since the Premiership all have something in common: they all spend the most money. As you can see, this has nothing to do with history. Man City are now buying their way into that band, having spent more than 500 MILLION pounds. This is what it takes to compete. Having a glorious history adds nothing to your balance sheet.
Jimmy Stenn
33 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:23:52
33 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:23:52
Ok, so we find a buyer who pays Kenwright and the rest what they feel is a fair price (say £50m). He then clears off any existing debt and interest (say £50m).
Now comes the easy part. The new owner obviously wants success, so needs to improve the squad. Over the weekend, Man Utd's and Man City's starting elevens cost in excess of over £250m. If we wanted to challenge these, we would have to look at spending roughly the same, keeping in the mind the few gems we already gave and can build around.
After that, comes the wages. Like City found after their takeover, they had to pay top end wages for players as they didn't have Champions League football and weren't immediately in a position to challenge for the league. Say we buy 10 players at £25m each and their wages are £150k p/w, you are looking at an extra £72m on the wage bill, on top of what we are already paying the current squad,
So Kenwright needs to find someone with an initial injection of over £400m, just to get us in a position where we can seriously challenge Man Utd and Man City ? and that's before you even think about a new stadium.
Put bluntly, we haven't been sold because no businessman with a modicum of acumen wouldn't go anywhere near us. We are not a good investment.
Now comes the easy part. The new owner obviously wants success, so needs to improve the squad. Over the weekend, Man Utd's and Man City's starting elevens cost in excess of over £250m. If we wanted to challenge these, we would have to look at spending roughly the same, keeping in the mind the few gems we already gave and can build around.
After that, comes the wages. Like City found after their takeover, they had to pay top end wages for players as they didn't have Champions League football and weren't immediately in a position to challenge for the league. Say we buy 10 players at £25m each and their wages are £150k p/w, you are looking at an extra £72m on the wage bill, on top of what we are already paying the current squad,
So Kenwright needs to find someone with an initial injection of over £400m, just to get us in a position where we can seriously challenge Man Utd and Man City ? and that's before you even think about a new stadium.
Put bluntly, we haven't been sold because no businessman with a modicum of acumen wouldn't go anywhere near us. We are not a good investment.
Tom Hughes
34 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:31:12
34 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:31:12
Dan,
I was responding to one of the previous posts regarding expectation and aspiration. I don't see why any of the clubs mentioned should be more aspirational or expect more than us. The relevance of our historic status is that that is the brand, the goodwill in any deal. It is what helped create the fanbase..... It is an imponderable and you're right it will not directly appear on a balance sheet, but it is a major part of why we are Evertonians and all part with our hard-earned that does appear on it. The point being that given that status, there is no reason why we shouldn't aspire to greater things, including ownership that will deliver.
I was responding to one of the previous posts regarding expectation and aspiration. I don't see why any of the clubs mentioned should be more aspirational or expect more than us. The relevance of our historic status is that that is the brand, the goodwill in any deal. It is what helped create the fanbase..... It is an imponderable and you're right it will not directly appear on a balance sheet, but it is a major part of why we are Evertonians and all part with our hard-earned that does appear on it. The point being that given that status, there is no reason why we shouldn't aspire to greater things, including ownership that will deliver.
Phil Martin
35 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:35:06
35 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:35:06
Dan,
Some fans will argue that we've not been bought out because we don't have any recent trophies to show off. Yet clubs like City, West Ham, QPR, Blackburn...(you get the point) have longer trophy-less spells than Everton.
Some fans say we aren't enough of a cash cow for investors. Yet the clubs I've just mentioned are no bigger or richer than Everton (assume City pre Abu Dhabi).
Some fans say not having a costly new stadium puts investors off. Yet big spenders like Abramovitch and Sheilk el City have spent £100Ms. Other clubs like Villa, Blackburn all have similar problems -yet were taken over irrespective.
Other fans suggest it's because we aren't in London - and because Walton is a dump. Yet there are many non London clubs based in very modest areas, all with relatively new investors/owners.
We can find excuses in everything and shrug our shoulders and just accept our lot. And it seems the only man (BK) who has ultimate control over the situation is doing just that.
But it seems there's a lot of EFC fans who are satisfied with our current state and refuse to believe our current board have done anything wrong.
Some fans will argue that we've not been bought out because we don't have any recent trophies to show off. Yet clubs like City, West Ham, QPR, Blackburn...(you get the point) have longer trophy-less spells than Everton.
Some fans say we aren't enough of a cash cow for investors. Yet the clubs I've just mentioned are no bigger or richer than Everton (assume City pre Abu Dhabi).
Some fans say not having a costly new stadium puts investors off. Yet big spenders like Abramovitch and Sheilk el City have spent £100Ms. Other clubs like Villa, Blackburn all have similar problems -yet were taken over irrespective.
Other fans suggest it's because we aren't in London - and because Walton is a dump. Yet there are many non London clubs based in very modest areas, all with relatively new investors/owners.
We can find excuses in everything and shrug our shoulders and just accept our lot. And it seems the only man (BK) who has ultimate control over the situation is doing just that.
But it seems there's a lot of EFC fans who are satisfied with our current state and refuse to believe our current board have done anything wrong.
Phil Martin
36 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:51:05
36 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:51:05
Jimmy, well done on overly simplifying the matter and totally missing the point.
Joe Rimmer
37 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:53:47
37 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:53:47
The way I see it is, I don't see any change coming quickly, so either accept or try and find the way forward. After the protest it is stalemate, but putting pressure on Bill will achieve nothing unless a buyer is found. People who are anti-Bill say he isn't looking for a buyer, yet when challenged that it would great PR for the Blue Union to look for a buyer, the same people say it's Bill's job.
I think that The Blue Union should aim big and aim to find the next buyer that will change world football. A poster said that it's not viable for a businessman to inject £400 million as an investment, so let's get the next Sheikh Mansour who will spend the money without blinking an eye.
I truly believe that this is an opportunity to change Everton's history. It could be the first reality TV football takeover, the opportunities are endless, one final thing alcohol is banned over here, so no puns on what are you drinking. This is a massive opportunity.
Tom Hughes
38 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:49:06
38 Posted 14/09/2011 at 16:49:06
Jimmy,
I think we have shown before that you don't have to spend ridiculous amounts to compete.... although admittedly the recent outlay by Man City seems to take things to another level. (That said, they've rarely beaten us despite all this). I think all we would have needed in recent yrs would have been a relatively modest injection to sustain a bit more quality and quantity in the squad...... and those 5th placed finishes might've been top 4 finishes. Instead we have been running on fumes for seasons now.
As regards the stadium issue, the real deal of the century opportunity was lost with KD..... but that said Goodison has probably got more character than any stadium in the country..... and this could be built on gradually to give the capacity and quality required to increase income streams...... there has been no proper strategy to address these issues.
I think we have shown before that you don't have to spend ridiculous amounts to compete.... although admittedly the recent outlay by Man City seems to take things to another level. (That said, they've rarely beaten us despite all this). I think all we would have needed in recent yrs would have been a relatively modest injection to sustain a bit more quality and quantity in the squad...... and those 5th placed finishes might've been top 4 finishes. Instead we have been running on fumes for seasons now.
As regards the stadium issue, the real deal of the century opportunity was lost with KD..... but that said Goodison has probably got more character than any stadium in the country..... and this could be built on gradually to give the capacity and quality required to increase income streams...... there has been no proper strategy to address these issues.
Johnny Rainford
39 Posted 14/09/2011 at 17:15:22
39 Posted 14/09/2011 at 17:15:22
Joe.. #47... disagree with your comments about putting pressure on Kenwright mate... The protest is all about putting pressure on him to get his finger out and FIND a buyer.
He's only been promising it for 11 years FFS.
The next protest should take place outside one of his theatrical productions within the gaze of his luvvies. Then lets see how quickly he gets his finger out.
He's only been promising it for 11 years FFS.
The next protest should take place outside one of his theatrical productions within the gaze of his luvvies. Then lets see how quickly he gets his finger out.
Joe Rimmer
40 Posted 14/09/2011 at 17:56:46
40 Posted 14/09/2011 at 17:56:46
I just don't see any protest working, and I would be against the protest at the theatre, it would just alienate any support within the media and amongst players and fans on the fence, the ones undecided. Any further protest will be met with Bill in the media saying that the buyer is not there and what reason does anyone who is not an Evertonian have to disbelieve him?
Jimmy Stenn
41 Posted 14/09/2011 at 18:18:06
41 Posted 14/09/2011 at 18:18:06
Phil #36. - What point have I missed? The op was about Kenwright selling, I made a few points as to why I feel it isn't as simple an issue as we would like to believe.
Tom #38 - I agree, to a point. In the past, we could chase them close, but didn't gave the depth. This year they have made the gap huge. The best route would be steady investment and growth, but every year that goes by, they will pull further and further away
Tom #38 - I agree, to a point. In the past, we could chase them close, but didn't gave the depth. This year they have made the gap huge. The best route would be steady investment and growth, but every year that goes by, they will pull further and further away
Joe Rimmer
42 Posted 14/09/2011 at 18:36:40
42 Posted 14/09/2011 at 18:36:40
Jimmy - to me its a simple issue, there is NO proof, that any buyers are scared by an asking price, there is NO proof that Bill is holding onto the club to make a major profit.
To get the majority of Evertonians on board the Blue Union will have to show the proof that club is up for sale at £150 million or whatever.
I have emailed every major British newspaper and football magazine a link to Bill Kenwright quotes asking them to do a report about why the fourth most successful club in England is unwanted by the chairman and cannot find a buyer after 3,4 or however many years. I will persist until I see an article.
To get the majority of Evertonians on board the Blue Union will have to show the proof that club is up for sale at £150 million or whatever.
I have emailed every major British newspaper and football magazine a link to Bill Kenwright quotes asking them to do a report about why the fourth most successful club in England is unwanted by the chairman and cannot find a buyer after 3,4 or however many years. I will persist until I see an article.
Jimmy Stenn
43 Posted 14/09/2011 at 18:48:28
43 Posted 14/09/2011 at 18:48:28
Joe, I totally agree mate. I know there's no evidence of any bids being made, or any time where Bill has come out and named his price.
I was just giving an example of rough figures, just so we could see just how much money is needed to turn us into a force again.
I applaud you for contacting the press as well, this is something which if enough of us did, would get our name out there even further
I was just giving an example of rough figures, just so we could see just how much money is needed to turn us into a force again.
I applaud you for contacting the press as well, this is something which if enough of us did, would get our name out there even further
Alan Clarke
44 Posted 14/09/2011 at 20:58:19
44 Posted 14/09/2011 at 20:58:19
Joe, your suggestion is terrible to be honest. The Blue Union don't own the club so how can they sell it?
Kevin Tully
45 Posted 14/09/2011 at 21:44:50
45 Posted 14/09/2011 at 21:44:50
I am just guessing here, so bear with me.
If there is an interested party, I imagine the people who move in these circles will know who to make contact with to make an enquiry.
Now let's say that is a certain Mr. Harris, how would that initial conversation go?
What clauses are there in place before they will even disclose the asking price?
What role does Bill want after the sale, if any?
Will the asking price include wiping out all debt?
Are there mortgages or loans with outrageous settlement fees?
Maybe we will never find out. But please don't believe that if someone is being discouraged from the outset, they will ever make it public.
Rich people usually like to keep their affairs under wraps.
If there is an interested party, I imagine the people who move in these circles will know who to make contact with to make an enquiry.
Now let's say that is a certain Mr. Harris, how would that initial conversation go?
What clauses are there in place before they will even disclose the asking price?
What role does Bill want after the sale, if any?
Will the asking price include wiping out all debt?
Are there mortgages or loans with outrageous settlement fees?
Maybe we will never find out. But please don't believe that if someone is being discouraged from the outset, they will ever make it public.
Rich people usually like to keep their affairs under wraps.
Anthony Jones
46 Posted 14/09/2011 at 23:25:32
46 Posted 14/09/2011 at 23:25:32
I like your attitude Joe, but this is nonsense.
Anyone who wants to pump multiple millions into a football club right now is either insane or mega-rich. Either way, they will know all about the Premier League and its clubs. The Blue Union cannot add anything in terms of increasing the profile of the club.
If the price is right the club will sell, for better or for worse.
Right now I'm more worried about Moyes giving our best player a fucking starting berth.
Anyone who wants to pump multiple millions into a football club right now is either insane or mega-rich. Either way, they will know all about the Premier League and its clubs. The Blue Union cannot add anything in terms of increasing the profile of the club.
If the price is right the club will sell, for better or for worse.
Right now I'm more worried about Moyes giving our best player a fucking starting berth.
Eric Myles
47 Posted 15/09/2011 at 02:42:29
47 Posted 15/09/2011 at 02:42:29
Martin #17, a club in Walton DID get snapped up so there's no reason why another one can't. IF THERE'S A DESIRE TO SELL.
Martin Mason
48 Posted 15/09/2011 at 03:17:55
48 Posted 15/09/2011 at 03:17:55
Eric, that's true but not sell at any cost and Bill decides the price.
I was just looking at how we "frame" projects where I wok and what we do is look at alternatives that will achieve the aims and the key criteria is that they have to be both clearly defined and achievable. The BU's so called solution to our woes is neither and that is the key.
I'm actually very positive and believe that in the end it is this squad of players that will determine our future. In this respect the arrival of Drenthe and the potential of Gueye and Vellios with the already established Barkley, Rodwell reaching his massive potential and Fellaini becoming the best holding midfielder in the country could see us excel. A European place, good cup runs, increasing gates and an increasing feelgood factor at the club could see us soar. Kenwright is an irrelevance.
I was just looking at how we "frame" projects where I wok and what we do is look at alternatives that will achieve the aims and the key criteria is that they have to be both clearly defined and achievable. The BU's so called solution to our woes is neither and that is the key.
I'm actually very positive and believe that in the end it is this squad of players that will determine our future. In this respect the arrival of Drenthe and the potential of Gueye and Vellios with the already established Barkley, Rodwell reaching his massive potential and Fellaini becoming the best holding midfielder in the country could see us excel. A European place, good cup runs, increasing gates and an increasing feelgood factor at the club could see us soar. Kenwright is an irrelevance.
Joe Rimmer
49 Posted 15/09/2011 at 03:59:19
49 Posted 15/09/2011 at 03:59:19
I meant that, by 'selling' the club, they act as an agent, advertising the club for sale and publicly making it for sale. It's all about expectations; if you sit around looking at all the negatives and reasons for no sale, then that's what you end up with.
All I meant was that the Blue Union find a list of reasons why the club is unique and try and make them public, they advertise the club for sale. Only the board can finalise the sale, but everyone else can show the world Everton is for sale. All the supporters I speak with of other clubs say, 'What are they protesting for? The chairman wants to sell?'
All I meant was that the Blue Union find a list of reasons why the club is unique and try and make them public, they advertise the club for sale. Only the board can finalise the sale, but everyone else can show the world Everton is for sale. All the supporters I speak with of other clubs say, 'What are they protesting for? The chairman wants to sell?'
Tom Hughes
50 Posted 15/09/2011 at 06:12:33
50 Posted 15/09/2011 at 06:12:33
I don't think BK will sell while he can keep his head above water with both the banks and the fans...... which he will do while Moyes continues to fashion a side from the scraps he's fed. Meanwhile, barring miracles and we make the top 4 with the smallest squad ever, then another year passes and the club stagnates further while others grow stronger. The BU was formed because of the multiple groups that were sprouting up due to the growing discontent at the way the club was being run. Their main initial objective was to prompt media interest and increase fan awareness which thhey achieved with several journalists covering our real state. This has resulted in the club having its biggest media saturation exercise since DK. But as with that debacle, eventually the truth will come out. The BU do not profess to have all the answers. They are a response to a growing groundswell.... If you agree that the club has been poorly run, and that real opportunities have been missed, which despite the happy clappers most cannot deny, then wouldn't it be more pertinent to offer support?
Eric Myles
51 Posted 15/09/2011 at 08:11:10
51 Posted 15/09/2011 at 08:11:10
Martin by your own criteria the board cannot stay because they do not have any aims that are both clearly defined and achievable.
Martin Mason
52 Posted 15/09/2011 at 08:29:44
52 Posted 15/09/2011 at 08:29:44
Eric, we don't know that though do we? All we can say is that it seems that way to us but the players and staff feel differently. The clearly defined and achievable aims relate to the requirements for change. If change isn't completely justified then you mustn't change. That is where the difference between myself and others lies. We both have exactly the same aims for the club but I see the extreme risks associated with poorly analysed change more than the likelihood of breaking into the next level of clubs in the EPL..
Eric Myles
53 Posted 15/09/2011 at 09:58:53
53 Posted 15/09/2011 at 09:58:53
Martin, that's the problem, we DO know that, it's abolutely clear, change IS justified because of the situation the board have gotten us into.
Martin Mason
54 Posted 15/09/2011 at 10:07:37
54 Posted 15/09/2011 at 10:07:37
Eric, that is an opinion and that's all
Phil Hoyle
55 Posted 15/09/2011 at 10:39:08
55 Posted 15/09/2011 at 10:39:08
Tom #31.....I definately don't want to settle for mid-table obscurity with the only hope of any kind of success being a run in one of the cups.
What I was trying to get at is there are too many Evertonians who are too quick to criticize whether it is changing the manager or in the case change of ownership/board. I have lost count the number of times I have read on this site about changing the manager but to replace with who??? What would someone else have done that Moyes hasn't? I just think we need to be careful what we wish for!!!
I am frustrated at the financial constraints we are under, the selling of our better players and the fact that we have not got into this debt again overnight and it hasn't been addressed. However, whoever comes in needs to be right for Everton and that is where I do think Kenwright has good intentions.
Jimmy #41 - totally agree with your points and unless we get the level of financing we you outlined we need to be realistic and unfortunately settle for being a top 10 side at best although that hurts me to admit it!
What I was trying to get at is there are too many Evertonians who are too quick to criticize whether it is changing the manager or in the case change of ownership/board. I have lost count the number of times I have read on this site about changing the manager but to replace with who??? What would someone else have done that Moyes hasn't? I just think we need to be careful what we wish for!!!
I am frustrated at the financial constraints we are under, the selling of our better players and the fact that we have not got into this debt again overnight and it hasn't been addressed. However, whoever comes in needs to be right for Everton and that is where I do think Kenwright has good intentions.
Jimmy #41 - totally agree with your points and unless we get the level of financing we you outlined we need to be realistic and unfortunately settle for being a top 10 side at best although that hurts me to admit it!
Tom Hughes
56 Posted 15/09/2011 at 11:14:04
56 Posted 15/09/2011 at 11:14:04
Phil,
I know exactly where you are coming from, and would probably have mirrored those views completely up to just a few years ago. The word "realist" is often used in these threads..... and I think there may be an altogether more ominous "realism" we need to act on. The "reality" that: how we have been operating over the last few years is entirely unsustainable, and cannot yield real success. The reality that while Moyes has fashioned stability the people in charge of getting everything else right have not delivered. Also the reality that this club has an aging fanbase and needs to secure future generations and grow that fanbase urgently, and that cannot be achieved via mediocrity, unless our neighbours fail miserably too. 24 seasons without a league title is this club's longest ever lean spell, LFC's under-achievement has cushioned this massive missed opportunity to win the hearts of a whole new generation of fans..... the "reality" is we can't afford all the missed opportunities that have become synonimous with the current board.
I know exactly where you are coming from, and would probably have mirrored those views completely up to just a few years ago. The word "realist" is often used in these threads..... and I think there may be an altogether more ominous "realism" we need to act on. The "reality" that: how we have been operating over the last few years is entirely unsustainable, and cannot yield real success. The reality that while Moyes has fashioned stability the people in charge of getting everything else right have not delivered. Also the reality that this club has an aging fanbase and needs to secure future generations and grow that fanbase urgently, and that cannot be achieved via mediocrity, unless our neighbours fail miserably too. 24 seasons without a league title is this club's longest ever lean spell, LFC's under-achievement has cushioned this massive missed opportunity to win the hearts of a whole new generation of fans..... the "reality" is we can't afford all the missed opportunities that have become synonimous with the current board.
David Holroyd
57 Posted 15/09/2011 at 12:05:03
57 Posted 15/09/2011 at 12:05:03
Stoke City have a chairman who puts his hand in his pocket none of our board do
Joe Rimmer
58 Posted 15/09/2011 at 12:46:21
58 Posted 15/09/2011 at 12:46:21
The gist of my thinking is that it needs to be simplified
the aim of the Blue Union is the most complicated ever
'The aim of The Blue Union is simple, it?s not to get Bill Kenwright out, it?s certainly not some mindless attempt to sack the board; its aim is to promote the concept of allowing the CEO to be left to concentrate on reducing costs, developing our revenue streams and repairing the relationship with the fanbase whilst leaving the board to appoint a fully autonomous group of professional individuals who can effectively develop and implement a strategy that will identify and sell the club to a buyer who can demonstrate an ability and a genuine desire to take the club forward on both a commercial and football level.
I would just have either of these two aims -
1. The aim of the Blue Union is to increase public awareness of Everton Football Club as For Sale.
or
2. The aim of the Blue union is to find a buyer for Everton Football Club.
Simple, straightforward, positive and no-one can complain ?players, manager, or pro-Bill supporters or even anti-Bill supporters.
the aim of the Blue Union is the most complicated ever
'The aim of The Blue Union is simple, it?s not to get Bill Kenwright out, it?s certainly not some mindless attempt to sack the board; its aim is to promote the concept of allowing the CEO to be left to concentrate on reducing costs, developing our revenue streams and repairing the relationship with the fanbase whilst leaving the board to appoint a fully autonomous group of professional individuals who can effectively develop and implement a strategy that will identify and sell the club to a buyer who can demonstrate an ability and a genuine desire to take the club forward on both a commercial and football level.
I would just have either of these two aims -
1. The aim of the Blue Union is to increase public awareness of Everton Football Club as For Sale.
or
2. The aim of the Blue union is to find a buyer for Everton Football Club.
Simple, straightforward, positive and no-one can complain ?players, manager, or pro-Bill supporters or even anti-Bill supporters.
Martin Mason
59 Posted 15/09/2011 at 14:27:18
59 Posted 15/09/2011 at 14:27:18
David, he's said clearly that his putting his own money into Stoke is a very temporary thing. The vast majority of EPL boards will now also be following the EFC business model. There is no choice, it is how sound businesses are run.
Tom Hughes
60 Posted 15/09/2011 at 14:58:34
60 Posted 15/09/2011 at 14:58:34
Sound businesses usually have a strategy to achieve success.... not to just sell everything to survive....
Dennis Stevens
61 Posted 15/09/2011 at 19:13:33
61 Posted 15/09/2011 at 19:13:33
Martin, how can running up an unsustainable debt be how sound businesses are run? I thought only banks could get away with that approach!
Joe Rimmer
62 Posted 15/09/2011 at 20:45:39
62 Posted 15/09/2011 at 20:45:39
Everton are screwed unless a new buyer comes in, it will need a £20 million sale per year otherwise.
Eric Myles
63 Posted 16/09/2011 at 04:30:55
63 Posted 16/09/2011 at 04:30:55
Martin, you need to read the Swiss Ramble posts, which give the facts to support the opinions that there needs to be change.
Eric Myles
64 Posted 16/09/2011 at 04:45:01
64 Posted 16/09/2011 at 04:45:01
Martin, if you ran your business in the same way as Everton is run you'd soon be on the dole.
Martin Mason
65 Posted 16/09/2011 at 05:02:16
65 Posted 16/09/2011 at 05:02:16
Dennis, running an unsustainable debt was the model that they used in the past not now. I mean the prudent model that they've been forced to use now.
Eric, I've read Swiss Ramble's excellent article as I've read a couple of other very good ones posted previously saying the same things and I'm completely aligned with what he says. That is why I see the Blue Union's efforts as hand waving and why I believe that the EFC board can do very little other than what it is doing without the unlikely event of sombody coming along with vastly more money than sense and throwing money at what would be an extremely bad buy. I desperately hope that we can break out of the current mire by improving our performance but I'm not sure that DM can actually manage a top side even if we became one. How do we improve our commercial performance as we have zero to market? I run a business and my life exactly how EFC are starting to run theres with revenue and spending balanced and easily manageable debt
Eric, I've read Swiss Ramble's excellent article as I've read a couple of other very good ones posted previously saying the same things and I'm completely aligned with what he says. That is why I see the Blue Union's efforts as hand waving and why I believe that the EFC board can do very little other than what it is doing without the unlikely event of sombody coming along with vastly more money than sense and throwing money at what would be an extremely bad buy. I desperately hope that we can break out of the current mire by improving our performance but I'm not sure that DM can actually manage a top side even if we became one. How do we improve our commercial performance as we have zero to market? I run a business and my life exactly how EFC are starting to run theres with revenue and spending balanced and easily manageable debt
Martin Mason
66 Posted 16/09/2011 at 05:14:29
66 Posted 16/09/2011 at 05:14:29
The rumours are that the big man will be leaving and I believe not only that this is likely but also that it may also be good business to reduce debt and perhaps bring in a younger cheaper player with potential?
I don't think that Evertonians should develop strong emotional attachments with any of the players as we could be very disappointed.
I don't think that Evertonians should develop strong emotional attachments with any of the players as we could be very disappointed.
Eric Myles
67 Posted 16/09/2011 at 06:58:04
67 Posted 16/09/2011 at 06:58:04
Martin " I run a business and my life exactly how EFC are starting to run theres with revenue and spending balanced and easily manageable debt."
But the point Swiss Ramble was making is the revenue and spending are not matched and the debt is not manageable.
The board are relying on selling their best players to pay off debt while still expect Moyes to perform miracles on the field to provide a windfall via placings, a cup run or CL qualification.
"The fans really do deserve better from the board: a clear, coherent strategy would be a step in the right direction."
But the point Swiss Ramble was making is the revenue and spending are not matched and the debt is not manageable.
The board are relying on selling their best players to pay off debt while still expect Moyes to perform miracles on the field to provide a windfall via placings, a cup run or CL qualification.
"The fans really do deserve better from the board: a clear, coherent strategy would be a step in the right direction."
Martin Mason
68 Posted 16/09/2011 at 09:35:18
68 Posted 16/09/2011 at 09:35:18
Eric, my point was that Everton are now converging on a sustainable business model and selling to reduce debt is part of the model. Surely what they have now is a clear coherent strategy which is to live within their means and hope to stay in the Premiership? Unless there is an unexpected improvement in team performance this model can't mean that we break into the top strata. The Swss Rambler article only showed for me how unfair a lot of the criticism is on here and how little the Blue Union have to offer in alternatives.
Tom Hughes
69 Posted 16/09/2011 at 09:42:36
69 Posted 16/09/2011 at 09:42:36
Martin..... so therefore u accept that we have been run poorly for the rest of their tenure...... and now when their hand has been forced they should be praised? It has nothing to do with BU, although to be honest your reference to them indicates the true motive for your posting and the happy clappers clapping. Some people simply cannot except that others have seen what they haven't.... and they will attempt to defend the indefensible by criticising those who had nothing to do with the real issues. There is always an alternative...... all we want is owners who can invest and who can deliver. The current incumbents have demonstrated time and time again that they cannot do either..... therefore they must go before their impotence and incompetence sees us off for good.
Tom Hughes
70 Posted 16/09/2011 at 09:42:36
70 Posted 16/09/2011 at 09:42:36
Martin..... so therefore u accept that we have been run poorly for the rest of their tenure...... and now when their hand has been forced they should be praised? It has nothing to do with BU, although to be honest your reference to them indicates the true motive for your posting and the happy clappers clapping. Some people simply cannot except that others have seen what they haven't.... and they will attempt to defend the indefensible by criticising those who had nothing to do with the real issues. There is always an alternative...... all we want is owners who can invest and who can deliver. The current incumbents have demonstrated time and time again that they cannot do either..... therefore they must go before their impotence and incompetence sees us off for good.
Eric Myles
71 Posted 16/09/2011 at 10:57:01
71 Posted 16/09/2011 at 10:57:01
Martin Surely what they have now is a clear coherent strategy which is to live within their means and hope to stay in the Premiership?"
No, because in a couple of seasons we will have no assets left to strip.
No, because in a couple of seasons we will have no assets left to strip.
Martin Mason
72 Posted 16/09/2011 at 11:26:04
72 Posted 16/09/2011 at 11:26:04
Not really in a couple of seasons, it's now. Also the board hasn't asset stripped; what they did was tried to buy success by selling assets and borrowing and they failed. What we are seeing now is plan B which is contraction to our natural level commensurate with our income. Swiss ramblers article far from showing the board up in bad light for me shows that there was nothing else they could have done. I ask again from anybody, what could the board have done differently, what would you do to increase sales within today's financial constraints?
What you want is for a prince to come along, buy the club, pay off the debts, build a new ground and buy new players and we all live happily ever after. That isn't going to happen and BK isn't going to walk away without getting some return on his investment. No amount of financial acumen can sort out the busted model that EFC are now forced to operate under and no financial acumen is needed to see that.
So? what's next?
Nothing personal btw, as I say we have exactly the same ends.
What you want is for a prince to come along, buy the club, pay off the debts, build a new ground and buy new players and we all live happily ever after. That isn't going to happen and BK isn't going to walk away without getting some return on his investment. No amount of financial acumen can sort out the busted model that EFC are now forced to operate under and no financial acumen is needed to see that.
So? what's next?
Nothing personal btw, as I say we have exactly the same ends.
Tom Hughes
73 Posted 16/09/2011 at 11:47:41
73 Posted 16/09/2011 at 11:47:41
Martin,
This board have had over 10yrs to address all the issues (and even longer if you add previous involvement).... and after all that time they have delivered and contributed absolutely nothing but a tent in a carpark, banners and blue gravel. The likes of Spurs and Villa and several others don't naturally/historically generate greater matchday revenues than us, they do it because they have had a board with vision that delivered the infrastructure and commercial opportunities to help facilitate that. Our lot have invested nothing and added no such value.... and that is what the analysis shows! Yet, you seem to be saying all is ok because we can offload players from our already tiny squad to keep the wolves away from the door.... After over 10yrs, that is the long-term plan for real progress? You are praising failure and can't seem to see it.
This board have had over 10yrs to address all the issues (and even longer if you add previous involvement).... and after all that time they have delivered and contributed absolutely nothing but a tent in a carpark, banners and blue gravel. The likes of Spurs and Villa and several others don't naturally/historically generate greater matchday revenues than us, they do it because they have had a board with vision that delivered the infrastructure and commercial opportunities to help facilitate that. Our lot have invested nothing and added no such value.... and that is what the analysis shows! Yet, you seem to be saying all is ok because we can offload players from our already tiny squad to keep the wolves away from the door.... After over 10yrs, that is the long-term plan for real progress? You are praising failure and can't seem to see it.
Martin Mason
74 Posted 16/09/2011 at 18:22:43
74 Posted 16/09/2011 at 18:22:43
Tom, I didn't say that all is OK, anything but. I only question what in reality can be done about it. Spurs and Villa have also, like us, stopped spending.
Believe me mate, I'm not praising failure, at least the board tried to buy success by borrowing. They failed as was always likely. Now it's plan B where we live within our means. I ask again, what can Everton do to improve their revenue without an injection of funds and if nothing what can they do to get an injection of funds?
Believe me mate, I'm not praising failure, at least the board tried to buy success by borrowing. They failed as was always likely. Now it's plan B where we live within our means. I ask again, what can Everton do to improve their revenue without an injection of funds and if nothing what can they do to get an injection of funds?
Joe Rimmer
75 Posted 16/09/2011 at 19:53:09
75 Posted 16/09/2011 at 19:53:09
@72 what the board did was selfish in my opinion they clearly went for it in the period 2006 -07 onward to 2008 -09. They clearly aimed for champions league football in this period, when they borrowed for later success, they put no effort into finding investment, when the club was on the up and would have had a great chance of being taken over. In truth that chance has now gone and we are left with the legacy of a selfish, egotistical chairman who wanted to be known as the man who turned Everton around, he wanted personal ego over the club success.
Eric Myles
76 Posted 17/09/2011 at 01:31:33
76 Posted 17/09/2011 at 01:31:33
Martin, you say that the board hasn't asset stripped but as Swiss Ramble points out the board are relying on selling their best players to pay off debt. That is asset stripping, it has already started and in a couple of seasons we will have no players of any value left to sell. Then what?
You ask what can Everton do to improve their revenue without an injection of funds and if nothing what can they do to get an injection of funds? Well surely the board should have been working on the first part in the last 10 years? And as for the second part that?s easy, listen to the Blue Union and put in an independent management team of experts that will sell the club because the current board have shown they are incapable.
You also say you are not praising failure, yet you defend that failure and are happy for the people who have failed to remain in place and continue to fail.
You ask what can Everton do to improve their revenue without an injection of funds and if nothing what can they do to get an injection of funds? Well surely the board should have been working on the first part in the last 10 years? And as for the second part that?s easy, listen to the Blue Union and put in an independent management team of experts that will sell the club because the current board have shown they are incapable.
You also say you are not praising failure, yet you defend that failure and are happy for the people who have failed to remain in place and continue to fail.
Martin Mason
77 Posted 17/09/2011 at 03:14:29
77 Posted 17/09/2011 at 03:14:29
Eric, I don't defend failure. Everton has no right to win anything and the fact that they don't isn't failure in football terms. We are a successful top ten Premiership club that has finished in and close to the Champions league positions. That is success by any standards to any but the irrational and unrealistic.
I ask again, what can EFC do to raise funds other than the now impossible scenario of an idiot with half a billion coming along? What can they do other than sell to survive? Players aren't assets btw only a commodity.
I ask again, what can EFC do to raise funds other than the now impossible scenario of an idiot with half a billion coming along? What can they do other than sell to survive? Players aren't assets btw only a commodity.
Eric Myles
78 Posted 17/09/2011 at 04:48:25
78 Posted 17/09/2011 at 04:48:25
Martin, we're not talking about footballing failure we're talking about the failures of the board and you know it.
The players ARE an asset as they are being sold to repay debt because it's all we have left as all the other assets have already been stripped.
It is the board that has gotten us into this 'impossible scenario' as you call it so why leave them in place to continue to fail? And why does it need half a billion? I don't see other clubs sold recently having that much invested except City.
An owner that is WILLING to spend their own money (which our current owners are not) and start a phased redevelopment of Goodison and maybe buy a player each season to acheive greater results and build slowly and show ambition (which our current owners don't) wouldn't need half a billion.
And there are plenty of willing new owners out there as Bill meets half a dozen each month (or at least when it's season ticket renewal time). So what is the stumbling block to the interest of these potential new owners being realised?
The players ARE an asset as they are being sold to repay debt because it's all we have left as all the other assets have already been stripped.
It is the board that has gotten us into this 'impossible scenario' as you call it so why leave them in place to continue to fail? And why does it need half a billion? I don't see other clubs sold recently having that much invested except City.
An owner that is WILLING to spend their own money (which our current owners are not) and start a phased redevelopment of Goodison and maybe buy a player each season to acheive greater results and build slowly and show ambition (which our current owners don't) wouldn't need half a billion.
And there are plenty of willing new owners out there as Bill meets half a dozen each month (or at least when it's season ticket renewal time). So what is the stumbling block to the interest of these potential new owners being realised?
Eric Myles
79 Posted 17/09/2011 at 05:05:23
79 Posted 17/09/2011 at 05:05:23
"What can they do other than sell to survive?"
Sell to survive is not a sustainable option, it will lead us down to relegation if we continue to sell our best players.
The only realistic sale they can make for us to survive is the sale of the club to someone with a plan better than asset stripping.
Sell to survive is not a sustainable option, it will lead us down to relegation if we continue to sell our best players.
The only realistic sale they can make for us to survive is the sale of the club to someone with a plan better than asset stripping.
Brin Williams
80 Posted 17/09/2011 at 08:52:08
80 Posted 17/09/2011 at 08:52:08
I agree that 'cost' involved in buying and running Everton to the standard we expect sound (and are) astronomical - £100M to Bill - £250M for players - £300/400 for a new ground - etc etc. To us mere mortals that is one hell of a lot of wonga.
BUT we are living in a very different world to those 'prospective' buyers - I don't mean the fella in the flat but the shieks, the oligarchs. the mega rich.
Bill has stated that he is only a millionaire and perhaps he is thinking as just a millionaire - those with the mega$ are out there and a £B here and there would be nothing for a toy - sorry joy like Everton for them to get their teeth into and thereby join their peers in the Premier League Owners Club.
We need to break out of this 'but it's in Walton' guff - most of those Oilies were herding sheep and living in tents and burning shite not so long ago - then they struck oil and look at them now!!
BUT we are living in a very different world to those 'prospective' buyers - I don't mean the fella in the flat but the shieks, the oligarchs. the mega rich.
Bill has stated that he is only a millionaire and perhaps he is thinking as just a millionaire - those with the mega$ are out there and a £B here and there would be nothing for a toy - sorry joy like Everton for them to get their teeth into and thereby join their peers in the Premier League Owners Club.
We need to break out of this 'but it's in Walton' guff - most of those Oilies were herding sheep and living in tents and burning shite not so long ago - then they struck oil and look at them now!!
Joe Rimmer
81 Posted 17/09/2011 at 15:56:05
81 Posted 17/09/2011 at 15:56:05
I have always been taught you aim for the stars and you might be lucky to hit the moon, I personally don't like all this pessimistic talk of 'the only realistic sale they can make for us to survive is the sale of the club to someone with a plan better than asset stripping'. That's frightening because if you don't believe that Everton is worth a billionaire then nobody else ever will. If City and Chelsea are worth it Everton are too.
Dennis Stevens
82 Posted 17/09/2011 at 18:23:16
82 Posted 17/09/2011 at 18:23:16
Martin, the more you explain your 'reasoning' & commend the Board for doing the only thing they can, which has, as you say, been forced upon them - the more you highlight the depth of their failure, the totality of their incompetence. You deliberately seem to exclude the idea that by making different decisions the Board could now have the club in a very different situation with a whole different range of options available to them, none of them being forced upon them by the banks.
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1 Posted 13/09/2011 at 23:48:35
But, the desert heat must be getting to you mate. Kenwright does not want to sell for under £100m.
Therefore, any serious buyers are put off as they also have to take on £80m of debts and liabilities, the stadium issue which will be costly one way or another. Probabaly a total bill of around £350-400m eventually.
BK is waiting for the Chinese - and I don't mean his Noodles and Ku Pung Chicken.