As Good As It Gets?| ToffeeWeb

Peter Barnes
1 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:22:12

Defensive line-ups or playing conservatively is hardly new. Teams have for many years adapted their game to account for the opposition. It shouldnt stop you from playing a striker as a striker or a flank player or winger on the wing.

Another factor is that, the more you play at your own end, the more chances the other lot will have against you. Even defensive tacticts have to have an outlet. Intelligent ones anyway. What he did on Saturday will not work and quite frankly does not deserve to.

You have to have a shape and balance to any side. It can be a defensive priority but it still should include players playing in their correct positions. If we have too many central-mids and no strikers then perhaps we should be looking at our transfer policy, not how we can fit them all into the team at the same time. The team then lacks shape and purpose as it did on Saturday.

Stephen Doyle
2 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:34:00

No wins away from home at Liverpool, Arsenal,Man. Utd and Chelsea under Moyes says it all. You'd think he'd have learnt by now.

Paul Knox
3 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:26:22

You took the words right out of my mouth. But don't be surprised when you return, we seem to be like the Watford FA Cup Final in 84 when their fans where there for the day out, they had lost before kick off. I'm afraid most of our fans are like those fans ? lost hope and happy to be called by the press and redshite pundits "plucky little Everton... didn't they do well..."

And dithering Davy Moyes has done well (yes, really well: £3 mil a year for fuck all). Everton are lucky to have him," ? what the hell? He's just a copy of Gordon Lee, but not as good.

Michael Lynch
4 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:33:19

Im with you on this one Tony. Play cautiously away from home by all means, but dont go there with no strikers and play to draw. 4-2-3-1 was what was needed on Saturday, with pace on both flanks and a striker to hold up the ball, not 4-6-0. Tim Cahill is injured now, just watch how much our football improves without him the side. It happens every time he is injured. Weve never had a chance at old trafford down the years because of these ridiculously negative tactics and now it looks as though going to City will be same. It doesnt work so why does he keep on doing it?

Tom Jones
5 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:49:28

Michael #4 ? I agree our football improves when we have injuries; the fact is DM doesn't have a clue how to (a) pick his best 11; (b) play them to their strengths; (c) motivate them... unless of course we are down to the bare bones when the team seem to pull together.

I'm another who's simply had enough of this shite. Never before in our history have Everton FC stuck with a shite manager who never won fuck all for 11 YEARS!!! Yeah say what you want about money but with strikers on the bench and not a clue how to use em... I'm afraid its time for Moyes to fuck off to wherever will take him ? and I guarantee you it's much more likely to be Preston than Man Utd.

Sam Hoare
6 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:48:20

Oh grow up!!

Lets selectively look at other teams to suit our argument shall we? Yes Fulham and Bolton did so well managing to get a point between them whilst playing City at home whereas we played them away. And lets ignore what happened to another footballing team ( a much better one than us) Tottenham who got hammered 5-1!!

City are a class act ( as you would hope after spending £400m on transfer fees) and bar some disputable refereeing and a hefty deflection we were'nt far off getting a point of them in their own back yard.

No-one wants to see their team to play like that of course but its what happens in the business of football at all levels. And it wasn't far off working. And in case you didn't notice it worked the last 4 or 5 times we played them. This time it didn't. No need to throw all your toys out.

John Talbot
7 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:51:53

Tony's right: we got what we deserved on Saturday... Fuck all.
You have to at least try to win. City must have pissed themselves.

Surely we will go for it on Saturday against the Shite... won't we??

Paul Johnson
8 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:46:51

The problem is, BB is negotiating a new deal for Dithering Dave FFS, we are doomed to years of this shite.

Robert Johnson
9 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:47:03

Couldn't agree more Tony. We were beat before we kicked a ball because of that shithouses tactics.

Fucking shameful, what's his fucking line-up gonna be on Saturday? ? 10-0-0...

Just fuck off, Moyes ? and take that twat Round with you.

Marcus Kendall
10 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:52:32

Spot on Tony Marsh, I remember seeing Scotland use the very same tactic against the mighty Czech Republic and laughing at how inept any manager is for playing a system without a recognised striker.

Before someone mentions Roma from a few years back, that was totally different as their attacking midfielders had genuine goal threat (Totti for instance)

Playing Cahill and Fellaini upfront is absolutely abysmal management, Fellaini CANNOT play there and should be where hes best and that is as a box to box midfielder.

The line up should of been something like this:

Howard
Coleman Heitinga Distin Baines
Rodwell Fellaini
Gueye Cahill Drenthe
Vellios

Sure some will say the likes of Vellios/Gueye arn't ready but at least that side would of had pace on the counter with a striker who can hold the ball up and play that position properly.

Until we get a forward thinking/astute manager (Poyet) in then to be frank I'm getting bored of football and especially the caution that Moyes loves. As Tony said surely football should be at least entertaining for the fan? I mean anyone who seriously thinks our team might get relegated are BADLY underrating our players as they are miles better than most of the bottom teams.

Andy Crooks
11 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:58:37

Tony, actually a more restrained response than usual, but one that it is hard to argue with. There are still many Evertonians who see themselves as realists and defend Saturday's capitulation. Fair enough, each to his own. Kenwright has divided the fan base and Moyes does too
The myth that is destroying us is "be careful what you wish for".

Lyndon Lloyd
12 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:53:25

You make some good arguments about the departure from the Everton tradition, even if, sadly, the realities of the modern game make the traditions of our great club seem a little romantic and anachronistic, but you don't do yourself many favors with your opening line, in my opinion, Tony.

As vehemently as you disagree with Moyes's ultra-defensive strategy, it was not a "pathetic capitulation" by any stretch of the imagination.

It was an attempt to grind out a 0-0 draw that narrowly failed. Depressing, yes, but hardly pathetic. It was actually pretty valiant on the part of the players carrying out their orders, if you ask me.

Andy Crooks
13 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:04:52

Sorry, there's more. Moyes is stale, tired and done.

Wayne Smyth
14 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:56:55

Well written, Tony.

I don't think any of us expected Moyes to go there and win, but to go there without any ambition to win is inexcusable.

There are some very tricky fixtures coming up against teams who have far more expensively assembled squads than us.

Either we will roll over and accept our defeats like a good little club, or Moyes will grow a pair, tactically, and decide that if we're gonna lose, then the other fucker will at least know they've been in a contest.

Andy Crooks
15 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:06:35

Lyndon, I don't often disagree with you but.... the players didn't capitulate, they worked hard. The coach pathetically capitulated when he named his team and formulated his tactics.

Jim Burns
16 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:54:48

The raw frustration that flows from this heartfelt post is something many of us can identify with .......the really bad news is, that Moyes' over cautious approach ( to put it kindly) is not restricted to playing the 'big 4/5'.

Anyone that witnessed the inexpicable approach to the West Brom game last week would have experienced shame and frustration during the first half of that game, at least on a par to that witnessed against City.

Here's where it gets really frustrating - we'll probably go hell for leather at the devil's spawn on Saturday - bearing out, everything Tony's post is trying to say......win, lose or draw.

We demand and deserve nothing less.

Stewart Oakes
17 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:09:32

I have to say I'm half with you on this one Tony, I think Moyes got it right up till half-time, keep it tight and don't concide. From the start of the second half, he should have changed it and gone a bit more at them as they were there for the taking.

Jim Burns
18 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:15:54

I've just realised - not many would have witnessed the inexplicable approach to the West Brom game last week judging by the size of the gate that night.

Ryan Holroyd
19 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:11:44

"Both Barcalona and Real Madrid have been beaten by minnows in the Spanish league this season."

Barcelona haven't been beaten this season, you clown, so how can you have seen Barcelona get beat.

"It wasn't that long ago cowards were shot at dawn and we are the most cowardly outfit in the country under DM. Where's the bullet, I will do it myself?"

So you're gonna put a bullet to David Moyes's head Tony?

Fuck off you silly twat.

Jim Burns
20 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:21:53

Ryan @18 ? I've a sneaky feeling (hope) he was being metaphorical.

Andy Crooks
21 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:22:24

Ryan, I think that Tony's hyperbole really was a figure of speech...(Well, I hope so.)

Kevin Tully
23 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:17:02

I worry about our better players wanting out. Could you really blame Baines or Fellaini if they went elsewhere?

It's not all about the wages, players are pulling their tripe out just to contain the likes of City - it must get you down.

Ryan Holroyd
24 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:27:46

Maybe, but probably not the best thing to put on a public forum!!!

Jim Burns
25 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:29:16

Ryan.....on serious reflection, I take your point mate - maybe the taxi scenario would have been more apprpropriate.

GJ Butler
26 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:27:27

Sam @ 5, only person speaking sense to me.

Andrew Conroy
27 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:18:10

I'm losing count of the weekends that Moyes has ruined over the last 18 months. It's become the rule rather than the exception for me to be moaning to anyone who'll listen that 'that was the worst we've been in ages'.

Saturday was a new low among new lows. Moyes' tunnel vision meant that he set up to play against City's reputation as opposed to the 11 so-so millionaires that actually took to the pitch. For all the hype, City were bloody ordinary, and if Moyes'd shown the players some trust and belief we'd have stuffed them. Did he really think that we could hold out by playing so negatively for 90 minutes? He clearly did, and not only is he a massive fool for doing so, he's very unfair for asking his defenders to have to take such a gruelling, relentless pummelling.

As a side point, I'm getting mighty sick of a media that does little but rehash unthinking 'Moyes is a great manager doing a great job at Everton' clichés. They hide behind the money excuse almost as much as Moyes does. If any of them actually watched us in detail instead of just swallowing the 'Everton as paupers punching above their weight' narrative/ myth and saw how Moyes is absolutely wasting the players at his disposal, there's no way they'd spout this brainless garbage.

Ray Said
28 Posted 26/09/2011 at 18:55:59

Well said Tony and welcome back from self imposed exile. Its our club, Moyes just works there.
Moyes , the Cowardly Lion, needs to hit the Yellow Brick Road -along with Cap'n Phil (the Tin Man) Neville and Scarecrow Round (what does he write in the notebook) and ask for 'a heart, a brain, some nerve'

Ryan Holroyd
29 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:41:15

Ok, lets take away the style of football which, been honest, is very poor and tho we have played good football under him it's been the execption rather than the rule.

Do people really believe that another manager could have done a better job seen as tho under Moyes Everton have got the 5th most points in the league since he started?

Ray Robinson
30 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:42:50

Some small Spanish club had a go at competing with Barcelona this year - and lost 8-0!

Still, think Moyes got it wrong though but I'm not going quite as overboard as some on here. It's more the one up front and home against the poorer teams that grates with me.

Brendan O'Doherty
31 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:51:41

"It was an attempt to grind out a 0-0 draw that narrowly failed. Depressing, yes, but hardly pathetic. It was actually pretty valiant on the part of the players carrying out their orders, if you ask me."

Nail on head as usual Lyndon.

The screams of Blue Murder on here that there would have been if we had 'done an Arsenal' and lost 8-2 don't bear thinking about; "pathetic", "tactically naive", "humiliation", etc. And don't bother denying it Andy and co.

Karl Jones
33 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:53:28

Agree completely. We've sold our two creative players within six months and its starting to show. i dont think we can compete with top sides anymore by playing football. Far too negative...Even against QPR we played negatively and without a striker. Its going to be a long hard season.

Howard Don
34 Posted 26/09/2011 at 19:47:57

Exactly right Ryan (28). Funny isn't it how virtually every pundit, commentator, football journalist, managers of other teams in fact virtually the whole of English football, think Moyes does an unbelievable job in overachieving at Everton.

Just who else do the knockers think is going to come in with no money to spend, having to sell top players each year, get us consistently challenging for the top six AND also get us playing this scintillating "School of Science" flowing, attacking football that is apparently just there for the asking if Moyes only had the bottle instead of being so pragmatic.

Please I'd really like to know.

Joe McMahon
35 Posted 26/09/2011 at 20:08:57

Ryan (28) the trouble is none of us actually know, but I do know (and so do you) that the current manager is one of the highest paid in Europe, and has been in the job for 10 years. I think it's about time to give someone else a chance don't you? 10 years is a long time for a manager to be at a club with nothing to actually show for it but not getting relegated. Please no-one say League Managers Association awards, Moyes has also got some of his own awards for Everton records: lowest goals scored etc.

Ryan Holroyd
36 Posted 26/09/2011 at 20:16:14

I don't think we should 'throw the baby out of with the bath water' Joe.

Whilst I agree that 10 years is a long time at a club, the last thing we should do is sack a manager who, whilst not having won anything, has out performed managers at teams like Villa, Sunderland, Spurs who have spent much more money than Everton.

If I was Moyes I would stick this season out and leave because I would feel that the relative success I have had is going to be tained some what because lets be honest,we have no money and things are going to get worse rather than better in the short term.

You cannot keep running a Premier League team with a minus transfer budget. It will catch up eventually.

I mean where the hell would we be without picking up bargains like Lescott, Arteta, Cahill, Jagielka plus the higher end league finishes of 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th which generate more money than winning a cup (sad but true).

I do worry for us when Moyes leaves as I can't see anyone doing a better job than he has.

Please no one say Coyle as he's WELL over hyped.

Paul Columb
37 Posted 26/09/2011 at 20:23:07

I just hope to Christ that if Moyes rolls out the same formation/'tactics' or, god forbid, line-up that he did at Eastlands, that Goodison reminds him that (regardless of the bigger picture bullshit) it shits in the face of Everton.

Dave Lynch
38 Posted 26/09/2011 at 20:29:49

Remember the cliche, "Best squad of players assembled at the club"?

Well fucking prove it and play some football, we are woefull to watch. Predictable, boring, one-dimensional and at times cowardly in our approach to the game.

Joe McMahon
39 Posted 26/09/2011 at 20:56:00

Ryan, I take your points on spending, but it's the no strikesr thing that get me, and this isn't the first game or season it's happend from Moyes. I think he would have benefited from an experianced No 2, not the drab "Yes Man Round". A boro fan I used to work with told me Round was hated because of his defensive/negative role. Wouldn't it be great if someone like Gianfranco Zola was Moyes No 2.

Anthony Lamb
40 Posted 26/09/2011 at 20:51:35

The sad thing about the "performance" at City was it proved an equally sad point - namely that unless you are a life-long/genuine supporter of Everton who in their right mind would pay to watch this stuff? Sending a team out without any recognised attacking core to it is really beyond the pale. I have had a lot of time for David Moyes over the years and somehow feel that he is as honourable man as you are likely to get in this corrupt modern game but I do feel that his current mind set of being reluctant to play recognised centre-forwards (however youthful or inexperienced) is eroding much of his previous good work. In addition does it not throw into sharp perspective the liability that is Louis Saha? Just when the manager and the team is desperate for a dependable centre-forward presence this malingerer still fails to show any professional example or encouragement to the younger players and taking the weight of expectation/responsibility off their shoulders by any obvious signs of commitment and application. What a complete frustration he must be to any manager let alone someone in Moyes' position. Ease some of the frustrations David and get shut of him - it might help focus your mind and selection options and perhaps force you to take a chance on others who at least will consistently get out on the pitch for you!

Joe Bibb
41 Posted 26/09/2011 at 21:17:13

Ryan, maybe another manager would have played Vellios Barkley, Bily and other players that might have gone forward instead of sideways and back.

If you are happy with the crap Moyes produces then buy your season ticket and rejoice, next season you will have a better selection of seats to choose from, because myself and others I know ill not renew if Moyes is still here.

Tony Marsh
42 Posted 26/09/2011 at 21:22:43

Lyndon thanks for the reply. I always though that in team sports both sides go out and try to win. If one side is so superior to the other then putting up a good show and having a go is no shame.

Doing a Moyes is not only shameful but detrimental to the club as a whole... It filters right through the club that getting beat in such a diabolical fashion is acceptable. It becomes almost expected. That's the problem with rolling over there is nowhere left to hide.

Once other teams realise what we are about they will go straight for the jugular. I mean no-one is afraid of a Coward ? especially a Bully.

Colin Grierson
43 Posted 26/09/2011 at 20:28:53

Well said Tony lad!

For years now I've sat bewildered at why teams change their tactics simply due to geography. My point is that the game is played on a large rectangular piece of grass that is more or less the same size wherever you play in the Premier League. The weather is the same so that factor makes no difference. The players employed by the clubs are all on more than ten grand a week and spend their week honing their skills, practising drills and studying the threat posed by the upcoming opposition (at least that's what they should be doing).

I bet we spent ages working out how to nullify the threats that City posed and so we should, but part of the solution should be giving them something to worry about and that means selecting a formation that Moyes seems incapable of ? an attacking formation!
He has bought players who play in attacking positions. A lot of these players end up playing out of position to conform to our conservative style of football (which bores the arse off the fans) or they end up warming the bench to make way for the six midfielders parking the bus.

Regardless of where we ply our trade we should set out to win every game. I don't care about atmosphere at home and away, that's why we employ sports psychiatrists to send the players out to play their game regardless.

I see no chance of us changing our fortunes as we don't set out to! It's like that conversation people have about what they would do if they won the lottery. Sadly, our conversation about where we will finish in the Premier League is a parody of the lottery only with Moyes' tactics we're not even buying a ticket!

I'm sick and tired of our demise at board room level and now it will continue on the pitch if the mindset remains the same.

Trevor Mackie
44 Posted 26/09/2011 at 21:57:02

"As good as it gets".......

Under Moyes thats for sure, he's fuckin' hopeless.no matter what idiocy the 5 or 6 FM kids on here spout

Just praying the poor management of Dalglish will mirror Moyes and we won't get embarassed in the derby..

What a heap of shite Moyes has produced over 10 yrs, it's like having the undertaker from "Dad's Army" in charge.

Terry Downes
45 Posted 26/09/2011 at 22:28:43

"Attack, attack, attack attack attack!" Can anyonre remember chanting that?

David Hallwood
46 Posted 26/09/2011 at 22:37:42

I posted on another thread that Moyes is a cautious manager, but so is Mourinho and Mancini, and just about every other fancy European coach that you care to name Guadiola & Villas-Boas excepted. Take Mancini on Sunday; 1-0 up at home top of the league, what does he do, he takes Augero off, arguably his most creative attacker and scoring goals for fun, and replaced him with a third centre back. Now this could be seen as a complement to Everton, but I?d like to read the post off Mr Marsh, if Moyes had done the same thing and left £50 million of attacking talent on the bench.

I an neither pro or anti Moyes, and I don?t actually mind him playing 4-6-0 (which is actually 4-5-1 with Cahill as an stand-in striker, behave now people), but what does mystify me is Howard?s insistence of hoofing the ball upfield to no one in particular rather than roll it out and try to play keep ball. But going back to Cahill as striker, the reason why he?s playing there is that all our striker are either not up to speed or not ready to carry the attack on their own. Saha- permacrocked, Vellios-shows some good touches, but is he ready for 90 mins, Strac la thingy, it could ruin him throwing him in too soon-and that?s about it.

Everyone that turns off their x-box especially when your genius has just clinched the cyber space title must be wondering why doesn?t Moyes get it. We haven?t been beaten twice on the bounce in 2 years, and except for too many drawn games and a horrendous start to the campaign last season, we would?ve done a lot better. Not a bad report card for someone operating with not a pot to piss in in a money-obsessed league

John Ford
47 Posted 26/09/2011 at 22:43:05

I'd love to see Vellios stsrt againt the RS David, and Cahill can do what he does best and support the attack.

Harvey Miller
48 Posted 26/09/2011 at 22:15:44

I didn't expext anything so I was not very disappointed. Still, it's never nice to loose and the way we did was both embarrassing and frustrating.

Mr Moyes actually got one tactical point right in the Manc match: he put Rodwell to guard Silva who is their main threat. If you stop him, you've got a good chance of getting away with a result. It worked fairly well. Unfortunately that was also about the only thing he got right in the evening. The rest is just a long list of mistakes:

Suicide formation, playing without a striker trying to get a 0-0 draw is PATHETIC.
Playing Fellaini as a striker/attacking midfielder does not work.
Osman is not fit and he seldom does well against the good teams.
New guys never get a chance until it's too late and anyway the formation is so defensive it's hard to make a difference, you just defend.

TRY SOMETHING ELSE: It can't be worse. Loosing is loosing: 2-0, 6-0 who cares? But, as Tony said, lying down and begging for mercy or going down without fighting is criminal.

Have to say the team fought well but to get a result with these tactics against a very good motivated team ? there's no chance.

Kenn Crawford
49 Posted 26/09/2011 at 22:30:49

I thought that football was a game betwen two teams with 11 players in each team trying to beat each other by scoring more goals than the other team. Now I might be slightly deluded but don't you need players in the team that have the ability to score those goals? ... eg, STRIKERS FFS???

Moyes, you don't have to be a Rhodes scholar to realise that even a mediocre striker playing in his natural position has more chance of scoring than a defender or midfield player playing out of position. £3 million a year and he still cannot figure it out!!!!!!!!!

Before all of those who bring up the money myth watching the game on Saturday, I thought City where just ordinary, made to look good by us. Taxi for Moyes.

James Morgan
50 Posted 26/09/2011 at 22:55:00

The idea is to TRY and win, not roll over and grease your arse up ready, which is what Moyes did. Shameful.

It's 11 v 11 on the pitch, City are human, not fuckin Terminators. Maybe if we got stuck in and got in their faces and actually tried to keep the ball who knows what would have happened. I'd rather get bummed giving it a go than surrendering like that.

Admittedly though, Webb was awful.

Jamie Carroll
51 Posted 26/09/2011 at 23:01:09

I know one thing about Everton so far this season... it will be Neville's last. Just hope it does'nt get embarassing!

Steve Higham
52 Posted 26/09/2011 at 22:59:54

Tony agree with you mate. When is all this 'we would be relegated without Moyes' ever going to end? He is now so predictable it's untrue. Every opposing manager knows how we set up: 4-5-1 ? if where lucky, players played out of position, hoofball, everyone back for corners, players unable to take a throw-in, and his favourites played every week.

Moyes ? change the record, mate... it's broke.

Marcus Kendall
53 Posted 26/09/2011 at 23:30:15

Its not just the negative formations thats the problem though, its the negative soundbites coming out of Moyes mouth before each game thats really bothering me. A manager in my opinion should ALWAYS be positive, even if the manager doesn;t believe what hes saying aslong as its positive then it will surely rub off on the players and for them to believe in themselves more.

The way he talks down our squad and picks up on players weaknesses rather than their strengths is poor man-management in my eyes, I get the feeling the reason Moyes is playing down our chances is more so he can keep his reputation (myth) that hes polishing a squad full of turds and that somehow finishing top 10 is a miracle!

I honestly feel a manager like Gus Poyet would get our side playing some cracking stuff and the club would be a whole lot more positive as thats the kind of manager he is. Funnily enough I liked Moyes at first as he was a positive guy with his demeanour and I feel the season we came 4th changed him for the WORSE as he feels that kind of football (and lets be honest we were boring as anything that season) is the only way of getting any 'success'

Lori Fekete
54 Posted 26/09/2011 at 23:36:55

I thought the formation and tactics were spot on. Rodwell kept Silva (the season's best player) quiet, Augeuro also didn't get a sniff.

What he did get wrong was the personnel. If the game play is to soak up and hit on the break you need two things; someone who can hold it up and support with pace. Vellios and Strac (based on the little with seen of them) are made for that position.

Drenthe is lightning and is ideal for counter attacks. Cahill and Fellaini running at you should have the Chariots of Fire music playing (or the theme from Steptoe & Son).

Laurie Hartley
55 Posted 27/09/2011 at 00:38:50

Tony, I agree with everything you have said in this post except for one thing: David Moyes is no coward. What he is though, is too conservative in his approach to the game.

Watching that game on Foxtel this weekend really frustrated me. The thing is when he made the substitutions you could see that the players were well capable of taking it up to City.

Mancini would have been shaking in his boots at the prospect of hosting Everton. I bet you he breathed a huge sigh of relief when he saw the Everton team sheet.

I am exasperated. DM should take a tip from Sir Richard Branston: "Learn to take a chance".

Ryan Rosenberg
56 Posted 27/09/2011 at 03:38:21

Well said, exactly how I feel. Moyes has to be the most overrated manager in the league. I listen to talkback and read articles on the internet and they're all like "Well Moyes is a fantastic manager and he will get them out of this mess". No. He fucking won't, he will make it worse. Start Vellios, Drenthe & Gueye and no more Osman, Cahill & Neville.

Jim Harrison
57 Posted 27/09/2011 at 03:43:46

What a load of pointless bollocks. Better to give it a try and loose 6-0? Goal difference can change league posistions, which affects income, which as we all know Everton don't make enough of.

I am not suggesting the performance wasn't bad, just that it wasn't as bad as it is being made out to be here.

As for "Moyes is actually shit but no one seems to notice" train of thought, what a load of crap! Someone suggested that Bolton's valiant attempt shows the way forward, but a glance at the league tells a different story.

The football will get better as the season goes on, it has for the past 2 years. And this year there is even a solid points return to get started with.

Get positive FFS.

Pat Finegan
58 Posted 27/09/2011 at 06:01:27

Totally agree with the original post. Shite tactics are why we always finish in the bottom half of the table, right?

Eugene Ruane
59 Posted 27/09/2011 at 08:21:52

Agree 100% with this post.

Derek Thomas
60 Posted 27/09/2011 at 08:21:27

I'm just amazed that 41% of the poll ( last time I looked ) STILL think he isn't doing a bad job.

With 2700+ voters, that is statistically viable enough to infer that of the match day crowd 12000+ are happy to watch utter shite.

The mind boggles

Gary Mortimer
61 Posted 27/09/2011 at 08:29:05

I think the issue with Moyes is that he?s defender to the core ? keep it tight and see if we can sneak a winner late on. The trouble comes when it comes to what players in which position. Bringing in Neville, moving Fellaini up front on Saturday unbalanced the whole team. Myself I would have played Drenthe on the left (instead of Ossie ? who I think is a bit lightweight when we play big powerful sides away from home) and Vellios up top (instead of Neville), Cahill would support Vellios, but he would predomitably be a 5th midfielder ? his tenacious tackling and endless running sets a good example. No need to go all gung-ho, but all players playing in accustomed positions with a job to do.

A few comments directed at Mr Moyes.

The next time you do a press conference and talk down the team?s chances you will be fined a week?s wages. There is no excuse whatsoever. I want to hear things like ?Yes, they?ve spent an incredible amount of money on their team, but it?s 11 v 11 out there and I think my boys are good enough to repeat last season?s result. It won?t be easy, but we?ve got a good record there and the boys will be desperate to show that we can compete with the high fliers?. In my opinion his defeatist attitude spread to the players.

How many more years will it take for the message to sink in - play your best players in their best positions! Fellaini up front? NO! NO! NO! It?s ok as an emergency measure when squad is decimated by injury, but unacceptable when there are 3 strikers sat on the bench.

Moyes has always done well getting the best out of a small injury ravaged squad, but when all players are fit, he doesn?t get the same results! That?s the main reason he will never get a job at one of the media?s favourites.

Sam Hoare
62 Posted 27/09/2011 at 08:49:18

We lose our first match since QPR and the vitriol comes pouring out!!!

I could stomach it more if i didn't know that if Moyes did do what alot of you were suggesting and went all guns blazing and we lost 5-1 like Tottenham or worst then you would all be here saying how shameful it was and how you can't go to a place like City without having a plan to contain them!!

I think everyone's a bit bored as we have had the same managers and pretty much squad for a long time now. But take a step back and i really don't think they are doing that badly. Alot of good teams are going to lose by 2 goals or more to City this season.

Robert Daniels
63 Posted 27/09/2011 at 08:54:48

Spot on Tony Marsh.

I agree with every word (including the bullet).

He should of had the bullet years ago.

Andrew Laird
64 Posted 27/09/2011 at 08:37:32

David Moyes' tenure has made me wish for certain players to get injured...

Agree fully with you Tony, setting up as a conference side to get an FA Cup replay is truly shameful.

Andrew Laird
65 Posted 27/09/2011 at 09:16:33

Lets also dispel the myth that the team was trying to "pinch one". 4 players in the box for our corners tells me otherwise. SHAMEFUL.

Dave Wilson
66 Posted 27/09/2011 at 08:55:30

I fid it incredible that people think there is any honour whatsoever in the Mowbrey/Holloway approach.
That to me, is true cowardice.

Although we were seriously outgunned, the tactics Moyes employed had restricted City`s multi million pound superstars to impotent whiners posing very little threat and at the three quarter mark we were STILL in the game.
A serious injury quickly followed by a jammy deflection changed everything.

Moyes left Saha, Yakubu and Beckford out in the corresponding fixture last season and even playing with ten men for much of the game we had City`s number.

We are not here to entertain the Manc crowd. The game is about competing, if the opposition is superior you make it as fucken difficult as you can for them, thats what the game is all about.

this "at least we had a go" mentality is the true cowards way, it suggests you knew you were going to lose, so you decided to enjoy it.

By making life difficult for City and keeping his players in the game Moyes was standing and fighting.

A poxy deflection and some gutless refereeing decisions wont change that

Nick Entwistle
67 Posted 27/09/2011 at 09:31:24

As Good As It Gets?

No.

Seamus Murphy
68 Posted 27/09/2011 at 09:58:30

Sam Hoare - who has suggested we go "all guns blazing"? You are exaggerating peoples reactions. Most people would have liked to see one, just one striker, and a 5 man midfield. That is not all guns blazing and would have helped "contain" city (as you reccomend) by having an outlet up top to aim for and hold up the ball and relieve the relentless pressure. Who knows, we might have even scored. Now I don't think that is "all guns blazing" by anyones definition.

John Nelson
69 Posted 27/09/2011 at 10:14:16

Well said Tony. Agree 100%.

Agree also with Seamus (63) - some fans on here are accusing us who didn't like Saturday that we want the team to "do a Blackpool" and play 4-2-4 or some shit and get twatted... Not one fucking iota.

All we want is for Moyes to have our team set up to forget who they are playing, forget the bullshit off the pitch, forget the lack squad depth etc. and play to our own strengths and more importantly, HAVE A GO. The "crazy" thing is is that believe it or not, we actually do have a good squad still, who when utilised correctly can play attacking football and get results, no matter the opposition.

The other "crazy" thing is that Moyes has actually done this before, and lo and behold against the top teams (season 09/10, Man City home (2-0), Man Utd home (3-1), Chelsea home (2-1))... this is what I am really pissed off about.

Get it sorted Saturday Moyes, have a bit of belief... And I do believe we can show these deluded redshite bell ends up for how average they actually are.

Tom Winek
70 Posted 27/09/2011 at 10:22:22

"Are we now saying Bolton and Fulham are a better sides with more ambition than Everton?"

The only part of the article I agree with is that Bolton and Fulham have more ambition than us.

If we beat Liverpool at the weekend it'll be totally different on here.

Matteo Rosingana
71 Posted 27/09/2011 at 10:36:51

No need to boot the dog Tony....I share your pain though. And his.

Tony J Williams
72 Posted 27/09/2011 at 11:54:07

"I dont blame the players" - i do, along with the manager.

Drenth not being able to hit a ball straight, jags for bottling out of the challenge and Howard for checking his run of his line.

That's 3 players at fault fully for the second goal. How is Moyes's management responsible for our "new hero" not being able to pass a ball?

Who was marking Ballotelli? maybe if they listened to Moyes defensive tactics, the lad wouldn't have had a free shot on goal?

They are all at fault, and it the player apologists on here that need to strat realising that playing out of position doesn't mean they are excused for misplacing a pass, bottling out of challenges or hitting a piss poor shot

Robbie Muldoon
73 Posted 27/09/2011 at 12:18:12

David Moyes has played 44 fixtures away to the 'Sky 4' or whatever you want to call Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester United. That is 44 games played in all competitions at their home grounds. How many games do you think we have won in that time? Going back to March 2002 Everton under David Moyes have won ZERO games away to the aformentioned clubs. A few draws here and there BUT NOT A SINGLE VICTORY. That for me speaks volumes about the approach he takes. IT IS SHITE.

Kunal Desai
74 Posted 27/09/2011 at 12:24:56

Saturday was just like watching a 'slow car crash' waiting to happen, it was a case of waiting for the inevitable even before the game started.

Robbie Muldoon
75 Posted 27/09/2011 at 12:29:35

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Michael Evans
76 Posted 27/09/2011 at 12:47:34

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent " Eleanor Roosevelt

Anthony Millington
77 Posted 27/09/2011 at 13:17:01

I agree Tony, I'm fed up of watching Moyes' negative crap so don't go much anymore. We play poor teams at home and don't even bring a striker on until the last 10 minutes or after the other team take the lead. And then we have this needless rush for a goal at the end when we could have just attacked from the start!

Most teams come to Goodison with a defensive approach anyway which makes it hard enough so why not start a striker! I can understand a more defensive approach at Man City to a degree, but we did the double over them last season and people on here are praising Moyes because we only got beat 2-0! Ludacrious!

Steve Guy
78 Posted 27/09/2011 at 13:54:39

Apparently it's our best start to a season since 2004-5 when we went on to qulaify for the CL. Amazing.

David Nicholls
79 Posted 27/09/2011 at 13:39:23

I Completely disagree with Tony's post and the people knocking Moyes's tactics.

Attack them?

If the other guy has a gun and you have a knife?

Surlely not?

Anthony Fox
80 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:15:45

How do you expect us to try and beat a team like city in their own back yard just like that.. He went for a point and it was the right thing to do.. If we had have gone all out we would have been looking at a hefty defeat.. Face facts, they have been on fire and we have sold our best players.. What do you expect??? If Moyes had have played open and we got battered, I will bet that the same people on here having a go now would have been calling for him to go for being naive.. The only people naive are the people on here who think you just stick a few strikers up front and beat City every year.. Get a grip!!!!

Danny Broderick
81 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:06:48

Couldn't agree with Tony's post more. Play a cautious game, but at least have a go. Playing with no striker, and also man marking Silva, paid Man City far more respect than they deserve. They are not Barcelona for God's sake. They probably won't even win the league this season.

Are we going to see similar tactics against Man U (Ashley Young), Chelsea (Mata)? Dare I say even Arsenal and Liverpool?

I was embarrassed to see our approach last week - it was small time. I've seen League 2 sides show more intent when drawn against a Premier League side in the cup.

John Daley
82 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:31:12

"Going back to March 2002 Everton under David Moyes have won ZERO games away to the aformentioned clubs. A few draws here and there BUT NOT A SINGLE VICTORY"

They weren't just draws though. They were 'incredible' draws.

"Attack them?

If the other guy has a gun and you have a knife?

Surlely not?"

Moyes didn't even brandish a knife though did he? He just hid behind a bin lid, decked out in full fucking body armour, screaming "not the face".

Robbie Muldoon
83 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:43:50

Haha spot on John!

Eugene Ruane
84 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:39:35

Re the gun-knife bollocks.

Moyes, before the game, said something along the lines of about 'if you take a knife to a gun fight, you need to use it the best way you can'.

Getting his excuses in early imo, but as an analogy, fair enough if (IF!) you plan at some stage to use the knife.

Having watched that performance, I would say to Moyes 'if you're going to a gunfight, and you only have a knife, don't forget the knife and paint a fucking big target on your forehead'.

James Coburn he most definitely aint!

Tony Gee
85 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:32:22

Well said, Tony.

I'm gutted I lifted my self-imposed match ban in order to take my lad to his first ever game (v Wigan). I'll return properly when the ginger one has gone.

Nil satis nisi optimum..

Lee Courtliff
86 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:15:05

John Daley *79 - Very funny mate,really made me laugh.

I think the original post is a little bit over the top but it's easy to see why. There was just no need to play Cahill up front with Fellaini off him. Just no need.

Why not an actual striker with Cahill off him and Fellaini in his natural position? To me it really is that simple. And then there would not be all this drama about "surrender" and "cowardice".

The team would still have been defensively solid and would have had at least some attacking options. The Greek lad looks pretty damn good to me,i would have started him. That's just my humble opinion for what it's worth. Which is fuck all.

Stephen Kenny
87 Posted 27/09/2011 at 17:43:56

"We will all be here long after they have gone" This is the only thing thats keeping me going to be honest.

The taking a knife to a gunfight comments showed Moyes was beaten before the ball was kicked. Now and again I look at the bigger picture and feel a lot of sympathy and a bit of pride for what Moyes has done, then days like saturday come up and his cowardly, shameful antics go against everything Everton used to stand for and he makes me sick. I honestly can't wait to see the back of him. He's gary Megson with a good eye for a player.

Jimmy Sorheim
88 Posted 27/09/2011 at 18:00:55

I realise the ONLY thing that can change peoples minds is if Moyes is booed on during matches, I dont think we as Evertonians have the backbone to stand up for the pride of this team anymore, we have lost too many good players and most people are just praying for Moyes to make miracles. How long it will take before people have had enough of the overly defensive approach will be shown at the end of the season if we struggle to survive relegation. Then pressure comes and then things might change but not before the fans start voiceing their concerns. It is that simple, make yourselves heard only then things will change. I belive we will slowly cripple if Cahill is our first choiice striker by Moyes, he clearly can not perform in this role alone, and for Moyes not to see that is unbelivable. I do thinkl he sees it but he reverts to his defensive approach in order to not embarras himdelf, only that is exactly what he is doing at the moment. We have Saha, Straqualursi and Vellios, all natural born strikers, and they are in my opinion the first choice strikers long before Cahill.

Ciaran O'Brien
89 Posted 27/09/2011 at 17:48:45

[With Formatting:] I'm new to this site and I have noticed that this has to be the most negative site I have ever visited. There are too many so-called Blues on this site who constantly badmouth everything to do with the club.

Real fans get behind their clubs through the toughest times and although our current situation is bad, it is nowhere near the fiasco of the Johnson era in the 90s under Walter Smith, Mike Walker and even Kendall's reign. We were almost relegated nearly every year except when Joe Royle took over and was a success for 18 months or so.

People giving out about Moyes and the 'no striker' formation we play seem to have forgotten that back then we played with two strikers, namely Big Dunc and Kevin Campbell, but our football was even more horrendous than nowadays. We just have no bloody pot to piss in and have to make do with Tiny Tim up front. Also people weren't really complaining after the Villa game where Cahill and Osman combined brilliantly.

The point is, Vellios is more of an impact sub at the moment, Big Denis is not fully fit as is Saha. Cahill has been our top scorer for the majority of his time here.

Another thing, most of the top coaches today are defensive except for Fergie and whoever the Bayern coach is and they can go out and spend £10million plus on a top quality striker. The most successful coach in European football history is the current Ireland coach Giovanni Trapattoni and he is the most defensive coach there is and his style is boring but it gets results, which is more important than entertainment. Remember last season we were playing nice passing football but ended up not winning until October. Effective football is better than attractive football.

David Moyes has his faults but every coach does, even Fergie has played Rooney on the wing in a 4-5-1 formation a lot. Moyes in my view is the best coach in the league bar Fergie. He continues to get the best out of every team he assembles with nothing to spend. This is reflected in our final places during his reign: 4th, two 5th place finishes, 6th, 8th and two 7th place finishes.

Only twice have we finished below the top 10 during his management, 17th in 2004 which was a terrible season and where we suffered with so many injuries that a relegation scrap was inevitable, and in 2006 where we finished 11th after lanquishing in the bottom three until January or February.

Everton don't necessarily need to spend huge if we get investment. I know a lot our big money signings such as Bily, Krøldrup and Beattie never worked out but the Yak was a great signing until he got that injury; Fellaini is starting to show great promise... and Andy Johnson was a great buy, not for his goals but for his industry.

All we need is Moyes to go out and sign 4 2million pound rated players ? at left back as cover, width, creativity in the middle and a striker or two.

I still have a sneaky feeling that we could clinch 5th or maybe 4th if Arsenal keep messing up because Liverpool are being hyped up due to Dalglish as coach and their defence is utter shite and Spurs are overrated. They might have quality attacking players but Adebayor loses his head all the time and Modric will be gone in January.

Sam Bull
90 Posted 27/09/2011 at 18:39:27

@Ciaran 85

At least here what you type will be posted ;-)

You're not allowed to moan/be negative on the official site... ;-)

Kevin Hudson
91 Posted 27/09/2011 at 18:32:01

Everton have made their best start to the season since 2004, yet typical of ToffeeWhinge, self-flagellation pervades.

Typical of Marsh. Not a peep when we win.

Gavin Ramejkis
92 Posted 27/09/2011 at 18:52:14

If the delicate amongst you dont like it I suggest you take your knitting and herbal tea and pop over to far safer ground on Pravda and Bluekipper you'll be safely at home with not a peep of discontent and carefully edited comments to show the Stepford world of Everton is all nice and cosy.

Alex Kociuba
93 Posted 27/09/2011 at 18:51:28

Ciaran, you start by saying we have no pot to piss in, then have a rant, with the conclusion that Moyes needs to sign four players! Also, Fellaini has been class for about two years, and Andy Johnson was shite in reality.

Jimmy Sorheim
94 Posted 27/09/2011 at 18:16:07

The big point here is that Moyes will put out the exactly same tactics home against Liverpool. That is what we should be angry about. That is not the way to win derbies.

Funny thing is that Cahill being injured might give us a blessing, just as it has so many times before. Moyes can't find his best eleven until some key players are hurt. He has shown that time after time. Now if Cahill is ok then things will stay the same until something forces his hands, and that is the truth.

Kevin Hudson
95 Posted 27/09/2011 at 18:57:32

If the suicidal amongst you don't like a reality check, I suggest you take your self-serving melancholy over to far safer ground such as The Samaritans, where you'll be safely at home, with not a peep of counter-argument, and you can bitch to your heart's content, to counselors trained merely to listen & offer herbal tea.

Kevin Hudson
96 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:07:13

..All nice and cosy.

Matthew Lovekin
97 Posted 27/09/2011 at 18:59:54

Tony - unusually I completely agree with you 100%!

It's supposed to be a man's game, for the manager as well as players. Moyes seriously needs to grow some balls and have a go at teams.

There is no creativity in our team, there is no pace in our team and there are no strikers in our team.

Ian Holloway wanted a Blackpool team that scored lots of goals, so he bought lots of strikers, whether good or not but at least he had goalscoring options.

Roberto Martinez wants a creative Wigan team so has bought lots of creative forward players, whether good or not but at least he has a creative options.

Gus Poyet is building an attacking team with wingers so has bought lots of wingers, whether good or not but at least he has lots of options.

Any other teams you want me to mention?

Onto David Moyes at Everton - defender, defensive midfielder, defender, defensive utility player, etc, etc. How does he expect to win games when we have a squad of defensive players?

I'm sick and tired of this defensive football we have to put up with, even against lower league teams in the cup! Show some ambition Moyes FFS!

Kevin Hudson
98 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:21:32

Ian Holloway - relegated.

Roberto Martinez - 25% win ratio at Wigan.

You are citing naive football managers as the "case for the attack."

James Fearns
99 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:08:58

The Samaritans just hung up.

Ciaran OBrien
100 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:34:48

Alex no.88 I said if we got investment, i didnt say for us to go out and sign 4 new players now when were skint and also it was 4 cheap signings. Andy Johnson was not a great goalscorer for us but he ran his socks off and scored crucial goals such as the two against the shite and the winner against Arsenal

Trevor Mackie
101 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:38:03

Kevin Hudson

You're comparing Everton to Wigan and Blackpool.

Kevin Hudson
102 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:43:22

I'm not - Matthew Lovekin is.

I'm comparing naive managerial tactics to Moyes' canny.

Ian Edwards
103 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:39:00

Moyes said he chose the team at City because of the players that City have. Then why did Moyes pick the same team ( apart from Neville for Bily) at home to Wigan. Must have been scered of Ben watson and Rodallega.

Nil Satis Nis Optimum ? No wins at Lppol Arsenal Chelsea and Man Utd tells me that Moyes writes off these games.

Ryan Holroyd
104 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:42:56

Jimmy, why would Moyes be booed at a home game when he's had Everton challenging for Europe during the majority of his time at Everton?

I think you'll find this website, great tho it is, does not reflect the majority of match going Evertonians.

I dont actually believe the majority of Evertonians actuallly read this website.

Kevin Hudson
105 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:49:42

I can attest that ToffeeWeb frequently gets slagged off in the Gwladys Street..

Stephen Kenny
106 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:36:26

Kevin,

A bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss before you start spouting random stats.

Ian Holloway - Got the team favourites for the drop to league 1 into the Premier league, came up, never spent a bean and gave thier fans moments they will never forget. An achievement to rival anything Moyes has ever done.

Went out and gave some of the best teams in this league a good hiding before squad size and naivety caught up with them and they narrowly went down.

Still what they achieved in thier 1 year up was remarkable, they should have gone down with less than 10 points.

Roberto Martinez - 25% win ratio at a tiny club that barely fills one side of it's ground who's players have one good season then leave.

They set out to play the game properly and nearly always do. They have stayed up despite the odds being stacked against them and should never be anywhere near this league in the first place.

The only player I'd say has the ability to play in this league is the goalie and the two young lads in centre mid.

He's also largely responsible for Swansea being in the premier league despite less than a decade ago they were almost out of the football league altogether. Again remarkable achievements.

Speaking of naive, how naive to think that a defend at all costs away from home philosophy against any decent side will help us get points? Time and time again this has seen us get a drubbing, yet when we have a go we can get results, have a look at the few times we did so last year.

Kevin Hudson
107 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:53:41

Speaking of "perspective," Stephen, how do you compare RELEGATION to 7 top 8 finishes, an FA Cup Final appearance & European football?

An achievement to rival anything Moyes has ever done?

Really..?

Behave..

Alan Clarke
108 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:56:47

I used to find solace in Tony's posts because I'd always pretty much agree with his assessment of Moyes but now I'm just utterly depressed.

What is the fucking point in going and what is the fucking point in even playing if we're not playing to win? People can defend Moyes and say it would be foolish trying to go toe-to-toe with City but we're not playing Football manager where a few descriptions flash up on your computer screen and all you look at is the result. Like Tony says, football is an afternoon a week where you can forget your other troubles and become absorbed in something else. I'd sooner be worrying about my fucking mortgage at the moment than watching that shite last Saturday.

I'm going on Saturday but it will be my last game of the Moyes era if he sends the team out to play like that against them.

Jon Cox
109 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:05:48

Hey Ciaran (85) what do you mean "at da" cant you be even be bothered to write "at the" FFS.

Piss off with your "gangsta rap".

Our team on Saturday were rubbish. And, it was all D. Moyes's fault. I'm not sure what else you said because half way through your post i'd lost the will to live.

Q. Ever heard of a thing called a paragraph?

COYB

Trevor Mackie
110 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:01:19

Q...why was Moyes refused entry to the labour conference?

A. because he makes strikers redundant.

all my own work y'know......piss off yourself......

Ciaran O'Brien
111 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:17:46

John Cox. How many times did I say "at da"? Maybe once or twice and I don't normally talk like that. This is a football site not a feckin grammar school. How was it soley David Moyes's fault that we lost. Dirty Kompany should have been sent after his disgraceful stamp on Tiny Tim and that was a turning point because Shitty would not have been able to handle us with 10 men. Yeah we were negative and defensive but Rodders successfully marked Silva out of the game, the best midfielder in the league at the moment and our defence only fell when we went in search of an equaliser because Rodders had to leave Silva and push up in support of Cahill.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
112 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:20:43

Cairan (88) welcome... well, maybe not so much if you are going to question the Everton credentials of fans who contribute to this site. That is a no-no. And no, it's not grammar school... but it's not primary school either: most of us are grown-ups, so using txt-spk is a no-no too.

So is writing in block paragraphs. All you have to do is hit the [Enter] key twice and it will create a new paragraph from the line feeds inserted.

As for all the apologist claptrap, well that's another matter. This thread is talking primarily about how Moyes had the team playing last weekend. We don't need yet another retrospective on Moyes's less-than-stellar career as Everton manager. Do you seriously think we don't know where the club finished in recent seasons?

And your solution is for him to go out and sign four £2M players... Firstly, the transfer window is closed; Secondly, when it was open, we didn't sign any £2M players. And did I mention ? the transfer window is closed?

Jon Cox
113 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:10:26

Kevin, (99), I dont know where you live, but I travelled over 750 mile round trip to see the Blues against West Brom. What I didn't hear was anyone slagging off TW. What I did hear, however, were many digruntled fans (Gwaldys St) slagging off Moyes and the way the team was set up.

So please mate get it right. Or, am I a Kopite?

Jon Cox
114 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:29:50

Ciaran, "How was it soley David Moyes's fault"

BECAUSE HE PICKS THE FECKIN TEAM !!! Oh shit I forgot, it was the tea lady's fault after all.

AARRRGGHH!!!

Steven Bennett
115 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:35:54

Ciaran@85. "still have a sneaky feeling that we could clinch 5th or maybe 4th if Arsenal keep messing up because Liverpool are being hyped up due to Dalglish as coach and their defence is utter shite and Spurs are overrated".......... Wow! /o

John Daley
116 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:30:59

"Hey Ciaran (85) what do you mean "at da" cant you be even be bothered to write "at the" FFS.

Piss off with your "gangsta rap".

" Q. Ever heard of a thing called a paragraph?"

Jon Cox = the new Charles Bronson. Cleaning up grammar in the hood.

Stephen Kenny
117 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:36:21

Kevin

The fact is he got them to a point nobody ever dreamed they could be, they got relegated with 25 points more than every pundit in the country said they should get. There's plenty of posts on here with plenty saying the same if you could be bothered to go back and look for clarity.

You could never make a direct comparison between the two because you will never get two groups of player the same and two clubs of the same size, stature and budget. What you can do is rate thier achievements.

In my eyes Holloway doing what he did over the past two seasons with Blackpool is the equivalent of the time Moyes got us into the CL spots. Except they done it playing exciting football. We bored everyone to death including our own fans.

Colin Grierson
118 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:28:17

What the fuck does it matter what people on the Gwladys Street think? I haven't been a regular match goer for years due to geography but that doesn't mean I don't have a perspective on the way we play.

We are irritatingly negative and utterly boring to watch. If I was able to go to the match, I would be fuming in whilst sat in the Old Lady rather than at home or in a bar. When I'm sat watching the game as a sole Blue it depends on who we are playing as to the number of general neutral fans are watching.

We don't make games watchable. Moyes seems like a nice enough fella and I wish him well but I could say that about loads of people. I, like many Evertonians on here, just want to watch MY team take to the pitch and go toe to toe with the so-called Big Teams. I'm not saying that we should go all out attack as that Keeganesque tactic has been shown to simply be entertaining failure.

That said, I would much rather try (and fail) than fail to try. Moyes should take a look at some of the efforts from the emerging nations in the Rugby World cup who are taking a hiding but still going for tries.

Steve Higham
119 Posted 27/09/2011 at 21:51:00

Kevin
Have been on the Gwladys St for years and have never heard Toffeeweb being slagged off.
Just cannot understand how anyone can defend Moyes' tactics - negative and boring.
IMWT - in mediocrity we trust.

Jon Cox
120 Posted 27/09/2011 at 22:03:14

Moyes didn't even brandish a knife though did he? He just hid behind a bin lid, decked out in full fucking body armour, screaming "not the face".

John Daley = Dr.Who on a good day when legging it away from those pesky Daleks.

Kevin Hudson
121 Posted 27/09/2011 at 22:08:59

Stev & John,

The Gwladys Street has a capacity of nearly 11,000 people.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Jim Burns
122 Posted 27/09/2011 at 22:02:31

Hey Tony - well done mate - over 28 hours and still going.

Its been a while since one game and one result encapsulated so much about where we are at this moment in time.... as a club ( mid table and safe?), as a fanbase ( divided? ), as a manager ( treading water ?).

For me, Saturday's match - from Moyes approach to the end result, said much more about the gulf that is now opening between the mega rich few and the majority of relative have - nots.

Given that we have been seen by many as the 'champions' of the 'have -nots' for some years now - Saturday may be seen in hindsight, as the final fork in the Premiership road.

Dick Fearon
123 Posted 27/09/2011 at 22:11:47

Just watched City suffering humiliation from Bayerns mostly home grown team.
Makes me wish even more that we should have had a real go at them.
O'h by the way Ciaran #85, Why do you and others keep up with the fallacy that it was only the Yak's injury that ruined his game. It was general consensus on this site that he was playing rubbish long before that.

Ciaran O'Brien
124 Posted 27/09/2011 at 22:50:08

Dick#119 before the Yak suffered that horrific injury he had already bagged 4 or 5 goals at that stage of the season. It was early in the season when it happened and after he recovered, the sharpness in his turn and his pace was greatly decreased. The season before he hit 21 goals in his debut season with us. How was he playing rubbish before this happened. The same goes for Arteta who was playing the best football of his career before injuring his cruciate ligament and after he recovered and got back into the team played shite and seemed slower than he was.

Kevin Hudson
125 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:03:46

Stephen Kenny,

Why are you contradicting yourself?

You tell me that one "could not make a direct comparison between the two.." ( Moyes & Holloway) - in post 113.

Despite COMPARING the same managers YOURSELF in post 102.!

Strange that when faced by my obvious response of reminding you of their respective Premiership records, you suddenly want to dissociate yourself from this comparison!!

For the record, citing relegation & failing to win 75% of EPL games is NOT "spouting random facts."

Or maybe your "perspective," is different from mine.

Jimmy Sorheim
127 Posted 28/09/2011 at 01:25:01

Beutifully put, Mr Tony Marsh! You have caught the problem with Moyes and his over-defensive tactics. The thing is that, in order for him to quit this club, all or the majority of fans must voice their unrest in order for Kenwright to act, and I think we are a long away from that. Until then, I suggest you find something else to watch if you are not enjoying it.

I know it is easy to say, and I have not been able to walk away yet, but I feel that it will not be long until I too get sick of watching us go down without a fight like we did against City. If we lose to Liverpool with the same tactics then I think I will be much more closer to taking a break from watching Moyes and his utter boring tactics.

Brendan O'Doherty
128 Posted 28/09/2011 at 02:20:15

Ciaran #85. Welcome to the home of Everton Misery. I see you've already been labelled an "apologist" by the site's editor after 1 post - it must be some sort of record.

You are absolutely spot on with your point about 'support'. Be prepared for accusations of being brainwashed, being intolerant of dissent, and being an OS lackey, all for the crime of supporting your club through thick and thin.

Enjoy the ride.

John Holmes
129 Posted 28/09/2011 at 04:30:59

I know that fisking is a 21st-Century equivalent of sarcasm ? the lowest form of wit; but honestly, the aimless drivel and Marsh-by-numbers in Tony's article and a host of posts over the last few days was so absurd I felt they needed taking apart. So, to the article....

Saturday's pathetic capitulation at Eastlands was one of the most shameful days in the club's recent history.

Straight off the bat, really? The most shameful? Losing 2-0 to title contenders via a deflected goal and another where Everton got the assist? I suppose you?re talking about the approach though so we?ll ignore the attempt to turn the metaphorical over-egged pudding into an omelette and press on.

Not only were we beaten but we surrendered before a ball was kicked. Running up the white flag has been one of David Moyes's favourite weapons during his Everton career

That is something that?s often said about Moyes?s teams, that they don?t even make the effort to fight.

? this along with playing with no forwards... WHY? Explain it to me.

Injury, lack of fitness, inexperience, being Anichebe, Cahill doing a decent job against some teams; the explanations really aren?t complicated.

What kind of mindset is Moyes trying to instill into his squad? The constant lack of belief in his players must surely have an effect.

I?m sure it would if he didn?t apparently believe they can shut out the most expensively assembled forward line in the league for 90 minutes.

Why must we always give the opposition so much respect and act as though we are petrified every time we walk onto the pitch, regardless of who we play?

Except for every other game this season when, strikers or not, we?ve showed no signs of parking the bus.

Man City have fantastic players, that we all understand... but to have the manager make us shit our kecks is a disgrace. I would sooner go down fighting and lose 4-3 like Bolton did a few weeks ago than curl up and die of shame like we did on Saturday.

A nice sentiment but you might want to take a look at the bottom of the Premier League table before recommending we play like Bolton.

The mighty Fulham put two past this same City side last week and that was after going two down themselves.

Yes, with a performance that was described using lots of adjectives that mean impotent and lethargic until they were 2-0 down... much like Everton.

Are we now saying Bolton and Fulham are a better sides with more ambition than Everton?

If we are, we need grammar lessons.

That's how it appears ? especially with some of our deluded lot defending the shite we witnessed at Manchester City.

What's wrong with having a go with what you've got? Where is the pride in the Jersey? What's wrong with playing a real striker if we have to go 4-5-1? Cahill is an Everton legend in my book and he is being destroyed and ran ragged by the antics of his manager. And for what? ? we lost anyway...

Surprisingly I kind of agree with this. I think that was the main problem with Saturday; Cahill was no match for the defenders so we had no way out.

I don't blame the players; they only carry out the Gaffer's orders... but FFS doesn't Moyes understand how we feel in this City about our football?

For a couple of hours a week, Football is all some people have to escape the reality of life. They pay hard-earned money to follow the Blues and they deserve to see more than this surrender-and-die garbage.

Again, at what point did Everton surrender? They might not have gone out all guns blazing but the players fought hard to get something from the game.

Pride, Passion, Belief, and Football Philosophy are all gone ? only to be replaced by Souless Clueless Gutless Football that has no place at the club that was once know as the School of Science.

I distinctly remember watching Everton and thinking ?Neville has no pride, Cahill has no passion, Baines has no belief? and just because you don?t like a defensive approach doesn?t mean Moyes lacks a philosophy.

I was always under the impression that watching your football team was supposed to be a joyous occasion. A place where grown men came together to worship their heros and toast their victories. A place were we laugh, cry, rejoice and celebrate. It was ours and no-one could take it away from us.

Tony, step away from the Mills and Boon.

Then along came Moyes... No joy, just desperation.

When Jagielka netted that penalty at Wembley - joyless, when Arteta scored against Liverpool - desperate, watching at Goodison as the seventh went in against my mate?s Sunderland team ? joyless and desperate.

In this version of David and Goliath, Goliath knocks fuck out of Dave every time and snaps the elassy band in his catapult.

Apart from the previous four times when Everton rubbed City?s noses in their arrogance.

FFS ? Let us play like a non-league side in the FA Cup if we have to but let's put more in to the fucking game than what we've seen so far this season. My heart bleeds for our fans at the moment, it really does. It wasn't that long ago cowards were shot at dawn and we are the most cowardly outfit in the country under DM. Where's the bullet? ? I will do it myself...

An oddly apt metaphor of morons hundreds of miles from the battlefield passing judgement on those who were dealing with harsh realities.

Doesn't Moyes understand that Evertonians are proud fuckers who live for football, who don't like lying down and begging for mercy? Give us something to believe in and we will follow over the edge of a cliff. Treat us like mugs and erm... well some still follow and I just don't get it.

If Liverpool played the way we have this season, the manager would be strung up... and we are all from the same City. It's strange.

If Liverpool played the way we have this season their manager would deserve to be strung up given they?ve spent £100m. I believe we bought a better kettle. It changes colour when it boils and everything.

I keep hearing this lame-arse excuse we would be relegated if it wasn't for Moyes. I just don't get it. Surely there are some of us left who believe that Everton are a massive club who should never roll over and die. Fight and give blood if need be but always have Pride in the Badge. Never accept defeat so easily; it's a crime.

How many non-sequitors can you fit in one paragraph?

I haven't been to a game yet this season but that's all about to change. I have been on a self-imposed one-man protest that no fucker has even noticed I'm on so it's done no good.

Maybe an amusing hat would help?

As of today I'm going back to where I belong.

Must... resist... obvious... retort...

I decided on Saturday evening that Moyes and Kenwright won't stop me from doing what's in my blood and attending the game. Fuck the pair of them. We will all be here long after they have gone.

Why not wait an extra week? I can?t get a ticket for the derby and I don?t mind keeping your seat warm.

I miss it and I can't handle sitting in front of the telly swearing and booting the dog.

Call the RSPCA!

I want to be there I want to feel the pain we all feel right now.

Call Max Moseley the Marquis de Sade!

Although I am glad I wasn't there on Saturday ? it must have been soul destroying.

Call the Pope! (actually it wasn?t soul-destroying, it was just a bit dull except when the City fans responded to our ?You?re just a shit Man United? with ?You?re just a shit Tranmere Rovers?. City fans with a sense of humour, whodathunkit?

Money is power we all realise that but both Barcelona and Real Madrid have been beaten by minnows in the Spanish League this season. I watched both games and the thing that struck me was the lack of fear.

Great, so all that?s needed is a bit of good old Spanish spunk and City will be bottom of the league.

The gap between Levante and Madrid is far greater than the gap between us and City but some of us think smaller clubs can't beat teams with money.

I thought we were a massive club?

Levante beat the world's biggest club Real Madrid 1-0 last week. Ronaldo and all played so how does that work then?

Basically, shit happens, even to Real.

FFS, it's all about belief. The more fear YOU show, the easier YOU are to beat ? it's simple. We might have lost to City anyhow but at least show some fucking balls. Fortune favours the brave, and all that...

This is a common misconception stemming from a tendency to believe a catchy cliché is the same as a proven fact. Actually, quick and painful deaths tend to favour the brave.

Well we can only hope and pray that Dreary Dave will grasp the fact that we fans don't like to see our team play like he thinks they should, and we have a good go at the Shite on Saturday. Cahill is out so surely one striker will start... won't they?

If he does, and we win, that doesn?t mean you were right and everyone else was wrong. Nor does it mean your return from exile is the reason for renewed success. However, if you wear an amusing hat, I?ll be happy to credit you as the sole enabler of better times.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
130 Posted 28/09/2011 at 05:52:20

I'll make this as clear as I can, Brendan (#123). Evertonians have a wide a range of opinions. That's not a problem for us... in fact it's our meat and drink.

What is a problem for us is when an Evertonian (that would be Ciaran O'Brien in this instance, #85) starts using phrases like "so-called Blues" and "Real fans" in a clear attempt to set himself above other Evertonians based on differences of opinion.

It's the failure to respect the fact that having a different opinion does not make you any less of an Evertonian or any more of Evertonian. If you think that's okay ? and by your 'support' comment, I take it that you do ? let me know, and I'll take the appropriate action.

Derek Thomas
131 Posted 28/09/2011 at 06:23:02

The 1st Rule of Fisking.

Fisk not, lest ye be fisked also.

John Holmes et al. Result-wise it was not the worst day in Everton History.

In the distinct lack of Intestinal Fortitude-wise catagory, as displayed by the Teams so called Manager, It was a fuckin Gold Medal performance.

Ray Roche
132 Posted 28/09/2011 at 07:18:17

Ciaran O'Brien@120

The Yak had scored 3 goals in 15 League games before he was injured on 30th November.
Almost half way through the league programme and three and a half months into the season. Hardly that early in the season.
Me? A pedant?

Dick Fearon
133 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:00:07

Ray # 127, Thanks for clearing that up I was beginning to think I had another of my senior moments.
Finally we have absolute proof that up to his injury the Yak was having a woeful season.
Mark my words in a week or two the same old excuse is trotted out again.

Stephen Kenny
134 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:04:50

Kevin,

There's no contradiction there at all, your clutching at straws. I never made a comparison I said I rated Holloway's achievement at Blackpool as high as I rate Moyes's with us.

Go and read my post again and you will see me reassert my belief stated in post 102. No backtracking whatsoever there.

You seem to take the simplistic view that the manager who finishes higher is better, regardless of the resources at their disposal? A ridiculous narrow-minded way to look at things IMO, which is why I called you out on it in the first place.

Martinez does not have to finish above Moyes to achieve more. He has a vastly inferior squad, fanbase, budget, training facility, support staff and pretty much everything else that a manager needs to have a chance of success.

I've always given Moyes credit for having a good eye for a player and for building this squad on buttons, but there's no way on earth you can tell me he's using it to it's fullest potential. I believe there's others out there that would.

Eugene Ruane
135 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:12:45

John Holmes (124) - that was a big post!

I'd be tempted to call you 'Big John Holmes' but, as I've heard 'careful with that axe' 4,678,875 times in my life and understand the small annoyance of lazy/shite name-related 'gags', I wouldn't dream of it.

Ray Roche
136 Posted 28/09/2011 at 07:18:17

Ciaran O'Brien@120

The Yak had scored 3 goals in 15 League games before he was injured on 30th November. Almost half way through the league programme and three and a half months into the season. Hardly that early in the season.

Me? A pedant?

Ray Roche
137 Posted 28/09/2011 at 09:01:40

Dick'

I think my PC is having senior moments. Started stuttering again.
The Yak was doing what he's always done, started like a train to get the fans onside, then sitting back on his ever widening arse to enjoy spending his £40k (or whatever) a week on burgers while his agent forgers another birth certificate to show he is, no, really, only 29. (in dog years)

John Ford
138 Posted 28/09/2011 at 09:12:00

John Holmes, great post, are you into demolition!

Eugene, hah you beat me to it!

Ciaran, welcome.

Michael Evans
139 Posted 28/09/2011 at 09:31:00

John Holmes@124 - Bravo ! (applauding slowly)

Like a world renowned surgeon, you have dissected Tony's post with your finely sharpened scalpel of wit and higher functioning intelligence.

Your "Maybe an amusing hat would help ?" comment was perhaps the zenith of your post and a blow from which one fears Tony may never recover.

However, showing glimpses of compassion (or perhaps thinly disguised vitriol ?) you do suggest an alternative career for TM as a Mills and Boon writer.

For those lesser mortals like myself who thought "fisking" carried a 3 month suspended sentence or the "non-sequitors" were an indie band, it is clear that your post has been a chastening experience which we would do well to reflect upon.

Alan Clarke
140 Posted 28/09/2011 at 11:54:25

Eugene, where I grew up other nicknames for someone like John Holmes would be 'cleverdick' or 'smart arse'.

Just to join in with the Blackpool / Everton, Moyes / Holloway debate, where do you think Blackpool would have finished with Moyes in charge? It's interesting because Holloway's Blackpool side were on a par with Moyes' Preston side in terms of quality yet Holloway got his team up where as Moyes cocked up in the big pressure game (not like him is it?) and Preston stayed down. I'm not saying Holloway should be unveiled as our next manager but it's hardly like we've got this unbelievable tactical genius managing Everton at the moment.

What I can't understand is why so many think Moyes is above criticism just because he works under financial constraints. He could line up all 11 men on the goal line for an entire 90 minutes and still people on here would be saying what a wonderful job he's doing.

Ryan Holroyd
141 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:15:32

Everton?s average league finish in the last five years is sixth. It was 11th for the five years before that and 15th for the five years before that

Yeah, Moyes has done a right shit job Alan Clarke.

I wish Everton Football Club would employ this mythical manager who would bring sexy, Champions League, title-winning football on a zero net spend. Problem is tho Alan, every club in Europe would want this manager as he would be doing the above on a £3 million a season net spend.

Tony J Williams
142 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:23:00

Alan, there are only a select few that think Moyes is above criticism. Most people, myself included, defend him (and players) against the most ridiculous comments posted on here.

He is far from a great manager, he is a good manager whose team is being picked apart before his eyes.

The players get a free ride from so many on here, it's unreal. Why is no-one banging on about the shite pass by Drenthe to cause the second goal....or the lack of marking on Balloteli? These two minor incidents led to the two goals they scored.

If the "tactics" were stuck to, maybe they wouldn't have scored and we could have pinced a late winner, who knows? I do know that their second came when we were chasing the game and it was a comedy of errors that led to their goal, not a great piece of play. Same the first, it was our throw but shithouse Webb gave it to them and Balloteli was left unmarked. Didin't lose his marker, he was left unmarked. Had the player did they job properly, maybe the result would have been different.

Too negative in the selection but it was keeping the free scoring Citteh quiet until the deflected goal when we had our "recognised" striker on the pitch.

I bet you Cahill would have picked up Balloteli if he was on the pitch...he was almost playing centre half at times.

Kunal Desai
143 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:21:20

Ciaran#85 - I admire your optimism. Finishing 5th possibly even 4th? As much as both Arsenal and the shite are playing poorly at the moment, they will stick pick us enough results to finish above us mark my words!

Marcus Kendall
144 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:47:23

I never quite know why people suggest Holloway as a potential manager at Everton, look at his CV and its pretty unimpressive in the main. He's second-rate.

Not really a fan of Martinez either though his CV is better than Holloways, neither of these managers would be an improvement on Moyes so theres no point.

Only managers who would be an improvement on Moyes and who are realistically available are Poyet and Lambert in my opinion though I've always thought Nigel Adkins did a great job at Scunthorpe and is repeating it at Southampton at the moment (plus hes a scouser though I'm not sure if hes a Red or a Blue or probably Tranmere as hes from Birkenhead)

Andrew Ellams
145 Posted 28/09/2011 at 13:08:09

Ryan @ 136, bet it's not 6th in the next 5 years, or even 8th.

Martin Mason
146 Posted 28/09/2011 at 14:05:09

Yet the continued criticism of Everton by their own fans baffles. I cringed at a radio phone in recently as Evertonians slaughtered chairman Bill Kenwright and manager David Moyes.

Phone-ins can attract the worst type of knee-jerk reactions from the type of fans who speak first and think much later, if at all. The type who are aghast that Everton didn?t sign Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo this summer. They no longer go to games because Everton are no longer champions. They are stuck in 1985.

You should always beware if a phone-in contributor starts to talk in clichés about a lack of ?passion?, ?commitment? and a ?lack of investment.?

For everything else there's Mastercard.

Nic Doyle
147 Posted 28/09/2011 at 14:01:38

Andrew @ 140 I'll put 50 quid on for us to better 8th on average are taking?

Brendan O'Doherty
148 Posted 28/09/2011 at 14:33:23

"I'll make this as clear as I can......

It's the failure to respect the fact that having a different opinion does not make you any less of an Evertonian or any more of Evertonian. If you think that's okay ? and by your 'support' comment, I take it that you do ? let me know, and I'll take the appropriate action."

Spoken with more than a hint of the school headmaster Michael #126. Raw nerve struck again.?Get off your moral high horse FFS.

For the record, I DO think it's okay for Ciaran to say

"There are too many so-called Blues on this site who constantly badmouth everything to do with the club."

And I also think it's okay for a match-going supporter to feel he is more of a Blue than someone who hasn't been to Goodison for 10 years, and who sits behind his keyboard sniping, carping, and condemning the effort of the players and staff of EFC.

Go ahead and take your "appropriate action" and ban me for saying that. You will be doing me a favour as I will no longer be tempted to post on here in response to the hysterical reaction of some supporters to narrowly losing a game of football to a £450m team.

Nic Doyle
149 Posted 28/09/2011 at 14:01:38

Andrew @ 140 I'll put 50 quid on for us to better 8th on average are taking?

Kevin Hudson
150 Posted 28/09/2011 at 15:09:49

Stephen Kenny,

You say that you rate Holloway's achievement at Blackpool as high as you rate Moyes' with us.

You also feel that Martinez does not have to finish above Moyes to achieve more.

Your words.

Judging a manager by league position is ..Simplistic..?

Right...

Then what is the point of competition? To applaud pretty football? Play the game "the right way?" Conduct "entertaining," post-match interviews?

You claim it is "narrow-minded," to compare respective resources. I disagree.

Which is why I took a quick glance at the resources on offer to both Martinez & Holloway last season:

Holloway signed TWELVE players and loaned a further 5 to add to an ordinary looking squad captained by Charlie Adam. Relegated.

Martinez had Nzogbia, Cleverley & Rodallega at his disposal. Again, admittedly, not an amazing squad, but one that scraped home on the last day. 16th.

But contrast that to the moribund squad inherited by Moyes in 2002, you know the one that contained ale-gut Gazza & meal-ticket Ginola. Avoided relegation.

The following season - his first full Premiership campaign, his resources included the forgettable Pistone, Alexandersson, Linderoth & Gemmill. He finished SEVENTH.

I have no issue with you admiring these managers, but to even remotely suggest that either of these two are fit to lace Moyes' boots is totally absurd.

Eugene Ruane
151 Posted 28/09/2011 at 15:50:13

Kevin Hudson (147) - you say..

"Then what is the point of competition? To applaud pretty football? Play the game "the right way?" Conduct "entertaining," post-match interviews?"

Well I think you've made yourself clear about what you think the point of the 'competition' isn't, why don't you explain then what you think it IS?

(I was always under the - apparently misguided - idea it was to win the league, but I'm getting the feeling it's ACTUALLY about not getting hammered and/or not getting relegated).

Phil Bellis
152 Posted 28/09/2011 at 16:06:42

".. aghast that Everton didn?t sign Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo this summer..."
can't say I've heard that spouted Martin, but I'm personally dischuffed that we only signed 2 loanees, a new mortgage and a trainee groundsperson.

Ryan Holroyd
153 Posted 28/09/2011 at 15:57:28

I agree with Brendan in a way.

Let?s face it, we all like a good moan, but there are certain posters who hardly ever have one single good word to say about Everton Football Club, David Moyes, the players.

No-one is saying Moyes is perfect. He, unlike some people who have a go at him when we WIN, is not perfect and has made plenty of mistakes as he does admit himself.

I also think there are people who are ?better? (if that is the right word) Evertonians than some people.

I know people who never mis a single game, whether that be home and away, and as much as I consider me to be a massive Evertonian, there are people who are better Evertonians then me.

Alan Clarke
154 Posted 28/09/2011 at 16:21:22

Martin Mason, you cringed that people questioned the direction the club is going in under Kenwright? God what knee jerkers they are after 10 years of witnessing mismanagement of the highest order.

Sorry Martin, but I've just broken the skin on my finger biting into it whilst cringing at your post.

Martin Mason
155 Posted 28/09/2011 at 16:46:25

Sorry guys, it was a quote from a paper, Daily Post? It's in the news trall section. I just thought that it was absolutely apt.

Is it true that most of the moaners don't go to the game? I think that it is probably true. If so then it's very bad that those who have no right to criticise do so the most. I don't go now btw and on that basis I'll not criticise what the current board do or criticise the salt of the earth that support the club at this difficult time

Michael Kenrick
156 Posted 28/09/2011 at 16:39:24

Brendan, that's the exact reason why we do not do Everton Credentials.

Perhaps one of the the biggest critics ? the OP on this thread ? IS a matchgoer, yet he's doing exactly what you denigrate, thus totally nullifying your position.

And if you want to differentiate based on whether a comment is 'supportive' of the club or not, well, sorry but you are quite definitely in the wrong place. We have no holds barred because we are independent, and because we want to hear all sides, on the simple premise that each and every person contributing is an Everton supporter. Your approach goes against that principle, and denigrates those who have opinions different to yours on a purely arbitrary basis.

Ryan, the point is: Does that make their view any more or less valid on here? When you have fans on all sides of any argument or discussion, both those who go the game regularly and those who don't, how can you claim that as a basis for one being more valid than the other?

Can you not see how divisive it is to use this rationale in a flawed attempt to support a particular viewpoint?

Phil Bellis
157 Posted 28/09/2011 at 16:57:10

Martin
you should have been in the Lower Gwladys last Wed night; the only ones who weren't moaning were the choir at the back and those of us who'd nodded off

Trevor Mackie
158 Posted 28/09/2011 at 16:30:44

John Holmes

What a poor post.

You said you'd take Marsh's post apart - you didn't come close.

You agreed in part then slipped into the usual strop so characteristic of the Moyes supporter.

Your introduction ridiculed sarcasm then predictably lived on it's snideness throughout.

The porn ref. is right - It was really, really long.......

but really really shit, one of the most sanctimonious posts ever.

Brendan O'Doherty
159 Posted 28/09/2011 at 17:14:57

"Perhaps one of the the biggest critics ? the OP on this thread ? IS a matchgoer, yet he's doing exactly what you denigrate, thus totally nullifying your position."

Is he really Michael ? I thought he had told us all that he had given up going and given up on Everton some time ago...

"And if you want to differentiate based on whether a comment is 'supportive' of the club or not, well, sorry but you are quite definitely in the wrong place. "

I don't want to denigrade anyone's comments. I was merely pointing out that it should be okay to state (as Ciaran did) that there is a lack of support from some supporters on here, without being reprimanded for doing so.

Tony J Williams
160 Posted 28/09/2011 at 17:16:02

"You agreed in part then slipped into the usual strop so characteristic of the Moyes supporter"

And you slipped into a derogatory and sweary manner, which is the usual MO of a Moyes Hater/Marshette/Moaner....(whatever title you wanrt, as it seems to be the norm here)

Trevor Mackie
161 Posted 28/09/2011 at 17:42:38

TJW

Well if it's the norm stop whining about it.

While we're having tea and scones stop stating the bleedin' obvious about the players .

Moyes bought/picked/instructed them - it's his job to get it right.

John Ford
162 Posted 28/09/2011 at 17:57:14

Tony J W, also if a post is more than two paragraphs, or in any way analytical it becomes pompous and/or sanctimonious.

Martin, phone ins are designed to be raw as they go to air almost immediately after the game, so theres lots of unfiltered anger about. Fair enough people get it off there chest but for this reason I gave up on them a while ago. 'Absolute disgrace' can only be true so often.

Kevin Hudson
163 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:13:52

Eugene,

I agree with you. I'm simply contrasting records for those who regard Holloway & Martinez as superior to Moyes.

Trevor Mackie
164 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:23:26

Kevin Hudson

How can you compare managers of clubs who've hardly been in the top flight to Moyes who walked into a club whose entire history is virtually permanent residents in the top division.

You're not comparing apples with apples and you know it.

Andy Crooks
165 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:45:05

Brendan O'Doherty, keep posting. This site is about robust debate and you play your part. In my view ,we are not Moyes haters or apologists, rather, Evertonians with strong views.

John Ford
166 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:56:23

What a nice young man that Andy Crooks is
(said with a distinct Brian Clough inflection)

Andy Crooks
167 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:05:36

Good stuff, John. FFS you get away with nothing on here.

Brendan O'Doherty
168 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:28:33

Mrs Crooks begs to differ John, According to her, Andy is a "miserable,old curmudgeonly fucker."

Andy - in fairness you are not someone who throws labels at posters for having opposing views to yours, so credit for that ye MOCF ;-)

Kevin Hudson
169 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:38:49

Trevor, (Again)

It was Matthew & Stephen who brought the others into the debate.

I'm saying they DON'T compare..As managers.

As I already explained to you in post: 99.

Trevor Mackie
170 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:46:18

Kevin Hudson

I'm saying you can't make the comparison you make because the dice is loaded in Moyes favour.

Clearly you support Moyes against these 2 - why not just say in your opinion you prefer Moyes and leave the forensics alone.

(see Everton's history of top div. tenure vs Blackpool and Wigan)

Matthew Lovekin
171 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:34:51

Kevin Hudson - You're wrong, I'm not comparing Blackpool or Wigan or even Brighton to Everton - because they shouldn't even be close to Everton!

Have you compared Blackpool's, Wigan's or Brighton's attendances or history? How about how much Holloway, Martinez or Poyet have spent at their clubs? Have those managers had the luxury of a £15m defensive midfielder or £26m on three strikers?

NO NO NO

Those clubs shouldn't come close to Everton but they have done because they have good managers that have got players playing the way they want.

Moyes has got Everton playing the way he wants - defensive! Moyes has been here long enough and spent enough to get the team he wants.

I'm simply stating I'm sick of this defensive crap. Moyes sent out a team against City to get a 0-0 draw. There was no attempt at all to win the game.

Moyes is not going to get any better at Everton, and I for one would rather have a manager in charge that is at least going to send a team out to try and win the game.

Ryan Holroyd
172 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:03:40

I totally understand the point that you're saying. i.e I've got a season ticket therefore my view is more important than yours. Which is of course bullshit.

However, people who go to the game, each and everyone, is a better Evertonian than me.

That is all I'm saying.

Kevin Hudson
173 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:01:59

Matthew,

I get you like to see attack-minded managers. I thought you were suggesting David Moyes should take a leaf out of their book, despite their modest achievments, and failures. Think I know where you're coming from. Unfortunately, I don't think Moyes sees it that way, and would posit his record as "the case for the defence."

Trevor.

Twice I've explained to you there IS no comparison between Moyes & the others, ( in terms of sheer managerial ability) and TWICE you've told me to stop comparing them. I even played Devil's advocate to demonstrate the point.

Not going round in circles with you any more on this.

John Audsley
174 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:11:38

TBH, no fucker is a bigger blue than me and I'd be ashamed if YOU ALL didn't think the same about yourselves.

It's shameful and disgraceful that anyone can claim to be better than another fan for any reason.

I love Everton, my sons love Everton and you all love Everton.

End of.

James Fearns
175 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:52:23

John Holmes, interestingly your post was 18 inches long.

Jon Cox
176 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:00:20

Ciaran, (87)

I'm so sorry to have commented like that for the things that you said.

As an Evertonian and reading, the thread, I was totaly wound up like a prosthetic coiled up limb on Zebedee himself..

Listen mate you go for whatever you want to say even if I dont agree.

Freedom of speach is everything and when I pulled you up on that, I was a twat. So go on mate you say, on this website EVERYTHING you wanna say. AND, I'll stand right behind you .

You sound like a young Evertonian, and I'm with you all of the way.

Regards Jon.

Michael, people like me have to say sorry to youngsters. In his context he may have been wrong. But with him I was defo, wrong.

COYB

Paul Columb
177 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:41:07

Jesus Tony....comments crawl out of the woodwork when you post on here. Didn't have your phone # for the Chelsea game and didn't spot your bulletin board message til after the game.....was trying to get you through email. Got a couple of tickets at the back of the LG in the end....hope I didn't put you out too much. I'll drop you a few quid next time. If you get a chance, drop me a message with your new email. Hope all's grand and here's to a derby with some guts. It's on ESPN2 here in Alaska at 3:30 am so at least I'll get to see it. Til next time. Cheers.

Trevor Mackie
178 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:37:20

Kevin Hudson

No you didn't you dabbled in semantics - read your posts before bullshitting

I give you the way out of the hole you've dug but you haven't the good grace to take it. You need to grow up, bloody idiot.

Kevin Hudson
179 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:55:17

I dabbled in facts, evidence & opinion Trevor,

You forensically psycho-analysed the semantics, read into it what you wanted to, and chose to disregard the THREE explanatory responses provided to you.

Then you continued to pester a complete stranger telling him needed to grow up, before calling him a "bloody idiot."

Night..

Ciaran O'Brien
180 Posted 28/09/2011 at 23:55:18

John Cox, I am young. I am 20 years old from Ireland and have been a blue for 15 years. My older brother encouraged me in becoming a Blue even though we were poor back then.

My twin brother on the other hand is a United fan and most of my friends support either United or the Shite.

I myself am pissed off with our current situation but I believe that this team while under Moyes can go places. I also believe we will get investment sometime within the next year or so but it doesn't need to be huge. All we need is our debts cleared and maybe Moyes to get a £10million budget to spend cos, after all, we have the best academy in the league for producing young British and Irish players.

But, this year I think we could finish 5th cos Spurs have a couple of top players but they have a shocking defence and that Modric wants to leave doesn't bode well for them.

As for the Shite, Saturday will show that they are just a bunch of diving (Suarez) bitches with one top player in their No 8 who is a crock. We should, in my view, beat them well, like last season, but all of us have to get behind the team in order for us to do well.

This is why Ireland have done so well in the past because we have got passionate fans who will travel the world to follow the team, even when our side wasn't supposedly as good as many thought.

I think Everton are very similar to Ireland in many ways because we have two top class but defensive managers who get the best out of the players at their disposal and that they're teams are full of workers and fighters such as Tim Cahill, Coleman (for both Everton and Ireland), Baines, Captain Pip and Duff, Dunne and Stephen Hunt.

Stephen Kenny
181 Posted 29/09/2011 at 09:04:55

Kevin,

"You claim it is "narrow-minded," to compare respective resources. I disagree"

I said the opposite, It was you who tried to ignore the respective resources of each manager with this simplistic post.

"Ian Holloway - relegated.

Roberto Martinez - 25% win ratio at Wigan."

please read my posts properly if your going to repond to them

I IMO rightly pointed out that managers work under very different constraints so it's difficult to make a direct comparison.

You are now calling your own views "narrow-minded"? Or you agree with my original point?

"Then what is the point of competition? To applaud pretty football? Play the game "the right way?" Conduct "entertaining," post-match interviews?"

No, the point is to win things, at least IMO, thats why I find it hard to believe your zealous defence of a man who's won sweet F.A for a decade, and looks like going another decade.

Under Moyes we've reached the same amount of finals as Millwall, who have spent the majority of thier time in the third tier of Ebglish football.

Random stats are easy to manipulate if you want to.

The fact Holloway had to go out and sign that many players makes my own point about how big an achievement it was to get them in the premier league.

Cleverly is only a young lad showing promise, Rodallega a 10 goal a season striker and N'zogbia a good winger, since when was great teams made up of those three components, I think it's you that needs to behave with those comments.

I didn't bring either of those two into the debate, nor would I particularly like to see either as our manager as I believe we could do a lot better than either. I just think a bit of perspective would be nice before we dismiss others achievements.

Laurie Hartley
182 Posted 29/09/2011 at 10:03:13

Just as a matter of interest,can anyone tell me how many teams in the premiership started a game last weekend without a recognised striker (when they had 3 on the bench). Hmm think I know the answer.

I share some of the same views as Tony on football - particularly that one about football being about self belief and passion.

GJ Butler
183 Posted 29/09/2011 at 10:28:47

Oh, the cowboys and the indians should be friends...

Martin Mason
184 Posted 29/09/2011 at 10:39:09

Cahill has typically been our number one striker. He's far more a striker than a midfielder.

Kevin Hudson
185 Posted 29/09/2011 at 10:33:21

Stephen Kenny,

"I didn't bring either of these two into the debate."

Yes you did. In post 104.

And yes - you did accuse me of being narrow-minded. In post 131.

Read you OWN posts properly before re-inventing what you think you said.

I asked you to compare the terrible squad Moyes inherited in 2002, the one he saved from relegation, then led to 7th place the following year.

To the ones ran by Holloway & Martinez last season.

To demonstrate the point that there is No comparison between the 3 gaffers, in terms of abitlity.

That is exactly the "perspective," I'm driving at. I do not think Holloway & Martinez would have achieved the same as Moyes did in that period of March 2002 - May 2003.

Why does a simple opinion: Moyes is a better manager than Holloway & Martinez, warrant such a pedantic cross-examination?

Dominic Bobadilla
186 Posted 29/09/2011 at 11:40:47

Well, I think Nigel Clough should be our next manager. He can read and write, was an excellent footballer, had a traumatic experience at Liverpool, and has turned things around at Derby.

Stephen Kenny
187 Posted 29/09/2011 at 11:47:42

Kevin,

The first time I can find mention of either is in post 96 by err....... Kevin Hudson.

Yes I did accuse you of being narrow-minded. I didn't say otherwise. You tried to claim my comments as your own.

Moyes first five years with Everton were fantastic and his achievement of getting us into the CL places was magnificent. Getting us to seventh with the squad you mention was also a good achievement that deserves a lot of credit.

Holloway getting Blackpool into the Prem and getting the points they did with the players they had comapres IMO.

Martinez kepping Wigan up was also a big achievement IMO although ranks nowhere near those first two.

The reason we had this back and forth is beacause it winds me up that people think only Moyes could get a club our size to finish 6th,7th, 8th etc.

Or the old "we'd be relegated without him", we wouldn't, with even a half decent manager we'd still finish in the top half because the majority of sides in this league are dross.

We probably won't win anything under him and we probably wouldn't under a different manager with the way the league is, but we may at least play with a bit of pride, pass properly and set out to win games instead of cowering behind the couch with him gone.

John Daley
188 Posted 29/09/2011 at 12:07:27

"Well, I think Nigel Clough should be our next manager. He can read and write...."

Quick, snap him up. Basic literary skills will lead to a coaching revolution. I can train a monkey to perform sign language, complete a jigsaw and piss in a urinal, maybe he could be his assistant?

Kevin Hudson
189 Posted 29/09/2011 at 12:22:13

Stephen Kenny,

You claim that the first mention of the two managers in question was made by me in post 96.

Guess what..? - It WASN'T.

You're wrong.

The mention took place in Matthew Lovekin' s post 95.

Marcus Kendall
190 Posted 29/09/2011 at 12:51:15

whilst I agree with Stephen Kenny in the main his choice of potential replacement managers for Moyes is badly wrong. Why do people constantly miss the good work Poyet is doing at Brighton? Why mention Holloway? Sure he's done well at Blackpool but look at the rest of his career. Plus the guy loves the sound of his own voice so much he makes my toes curl.

As for Martinez I just don't see it in him? People keep saying how attractive the football he plays is but they regurlarly finish seasons with the lowest goals for column. I'd wager Martinez would get the same abuse Moyes did last season, pretty football with no end product!

Gavin Ramejkis
191 Posted 29/09/2011 at 13:08:41

John #185 I think your monkey might have the edge - what is it that Moyes and Round do with that scratty bit of paper during the match?

a. Play Os and Xs
b. Have a competition to see who can come up with the most defensive formation
c. Have a competition to see who can get the most defensive players on the pitch
d. Just scribble to look busy

Stephen Kenny
192 Posted 29/09/2011 at 13:30:10

Marcus, Kevin etc.

I believe the league we play in, the potential in this squad (although low in quantity) and the amount we pay our current manager would bring a genuine top drawer coach to the club.

Rijkaard, Hiddink, Magath, Pellegrini and lots of other top drawer managers as well as all the up & comers like Adkins, Poyet and Lambert would love the chance to manage a big club in the EPL. That's what we are and will continue to be, regardless of whether Moyes is here or not.

I defended Holloway because IMO his greatest achievement as a manager ranks alongside Moyes's best. If you disagree, fair play.

Marcus Kendall
193 Posted 29/09/2011 at 14:17:01

Hiddink is another overrated manager!

I prefer an up and comer personally, think its what we need more than someone more established

Ryan Holroyd
194 Posted 29/09/2011 at 14:28:50

Pep Guardiola, There is a good manager.

I think we should appoint him.

Dominic Bobadilla
195 Posted 29/09/2011 at 14:20:33

188: shopping list of Mrs Moyes.

Round: Don´t forget to buy bloodpudding she says.

Moyes: Write it down.

GJ Butler
196 Posted 29/09/2011 at 15:44:14

In fairness Ryan, I think I could get the best out of that Barca side myself.

Colin Wainwright
197 Posted 29/09/2011 at 20:31:15

Ciaran.

Go on yerself lad! Might not agree with what your saying, but for putting up with the mancs and your red mates, you deserve a medal.

Lets ave these bastards on saturday.

Ciaran O'Brien
198 Posted 29/09/2011 at 22:06:29

Yeah I hope we smack that grin off Suarez's ugly face. Is Cahill playing by any chance cos he just comes alive in these derbies and Seamo will destroy Enrique. COYB

Ciaran O'Brien
199 Posted 29/09/2011 at 22:25:13

Yeah I hope we stuff them. I also hope Manure lose to Norwich also so it shuts up me twin brother and me friends. I also hope Distin wipes the floor with Suarez and big caveman Denis scores one or two if he gets to play.

Martin Mason
200 Posted 30/09/2011 at 03:30:01

I'd go for Gus Poyet every time, he uis a very good manager.

Tony J Williams
201 Posted 30/09/2011 at 12:24:50

Gus hasn't won in 4 games, he has had 3 defeats and one draw. Can you imagine the stick he would get on here if he had that record at Everton?

Andrew Laird
202 Posted 30/09/2011 at 12:37:04

Tony# 198. It wouldn't be his fault, he has no money to spend, hands are tied etc.....

Kevin Hudson
204 Posted 30/09/2011 at 18:28:32

Give him his due, only a Tony Marsh article could generate 200 responses..!!