Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
What if...?
By Shaun Sparke :: 27/09/2011
165 Comments (»Last)
Imagine if Moyes had the following squad of players at his disposal when they were all in their prime: Southall, Stevens, Ratcliffe, Mountfield, Bailey, Van den Hauwe, Harper, Richardson, Reid, Bracewell, Steven, Sheedy, Heath, Sharp, Gray. What do you think would be his first choice eleven?
Now I Know that this is pure fantasy and the realist and dogmatic will argue that this is a futile post and perhaps you have a point, but imagine what the outcry would have been from weather beaten blues such as myself if Kendall would have picked this starting eleven for a tricky away game at Old Trafford:
Southall, Stevens, Ratcliffe, Mountfield, Van Den Hauwe, Harper, Bailey, Richardson, Reid, Bracewell, Steven.
Playing Trevor Steven as a makeshift centre forward and flooding the midfield with hard-working grafters and defensive minded players. No place in this team for Sheedy, Heath, Sharp or Gray! We would have screamed the roof off and demanded Kendall?s head on a plate.
Ah, I hear the cry from the new breed of Evertonians that football has changed and has supposedly evolved. Well, the last time I checked, the goals are the still the same size, they still play eleven v eleven, there is still only one ball allowed on the pitch, they still play on grass, we still wear blue, and we are still called Everton. The only thing that has really changed is the attitude of some of the fans who think that a top ten spot is a good season!
We have no money; we are doing the best that we can... we just can?t compete ? and we are armed with knives in a gun fight. Excuses, excuses... I am sick of hearing them.
David Moyes is generally a good manager, there is no doubt about that; he gets his players to run their hearts out nearly every game and he commands enough respect from them that they follow his gameplan to the letter. They were not cowards on Saturday ? they worked extremely hard and did what was asked.
But isn?t that the problem here? They were asked to defend for their lives, to put their head in where it hurts to stop the opposition from scoring, they were asked to tackle like terriers, deny the opposition any space, close down, stop crosses, get close, win the second balls, show pride in the blue shirt. All of this they did with aplomb.
But were they asked to make overlapping runs down the wings, to attack in packs, to move the opposition defenders about with intelligent runs, to look for the attacking option, to make defence-splitting passes and to shoot on site of the goal?
The evidence suggests that they were not asked to do any of the attacking options presented here. If they were, then how come they followed his defensive instructions to the letter but not his attacking instructions?
The answer is simple: his team selection suggests that there was no attacking intent.
Is this what we have come to expect? I don?t like it, I would sooner watch Rodwell busting his lungs trying to get past Lescott and Company and shooting at the goal rather than stopping David Silva from touching the ball.
Maybe it's just me, maybe I am expecting too much. I might not have played the game at such a high level but I have watched enough games to know that if you don?t shoot then you don?t score. It is as simple as that.
Reader Comments (165)
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Marcus Kendall
2 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:45:12
2 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:45:12
or alternatively it could be argued that Moyes sold 3 strikers in the transfer window and replaced them with 1 untried and not match fit striker, making it his own fault for the limited options available?
Mark Gargan
3 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:53:16
3 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:53:16
Of the three srtrikers sold (1) Beckford had shown consistently that he could not play as a single striker as he could not control the ball and hold up play; (2) Vaughan was constantly injured and still is and (3) Yakubu did not want to play for Everton anymore and his wages had to be sacrificed to bring down the deficit between income and expenditure.
Marcus Kendall
4 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:58:22
4 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:58:22
I don't disagree with your assessment of the 3 strikers mentioned but 2 of them were brought in by Moyes (one for 11 million might I add)
Anyone looking at Yakubus history would of known injury or no injury he was never going to be a good bet long term so to me that was £11 million wasted)
Moyes record in the transfer market regarding strikers is pretty poor, struggling to think of a success story (maybe Vellios but time will tell)
Anyone looking at Yakubus history would of known injury or no injury he was never going to be a good bet long term so to me that was £11 million wasted)
Moyes record in the transfer market regarding strikers is pretty poor, struggling to think of a success story (maybe Vellios but time will tell)
Mark Gargan
5 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:24:23
5 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:24:23
If Yakubu had not done his achilles he would have been sold to Tottenham for at least what we paid for him. We would then have had a good season from him and the money to buy someone else. Do not think that one can say his purchase was a mistake.
Our problem with strikers is that we are trying to buy real quality for less money than such strikers command
Our problem with strikers is that we are trying to buy real quality for less money than such strikers command
Rob Teo
6 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:14:05
6 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:14:05
Mark#1: But this is not the first time that Moyes has opted to play without any strikers in his starting line-up. On more than one occasion last season, even when the Yak and Saha and Beckford were all fit and available for selection, he chose to play a conservative 4-6-0 formation, including against supposedly inferior opposition.
So, no, I have to disagree with you that Moyes was "making the best of the players he had available". Rather, he was making the best defensive line-up from the players he had available. It's his style, always was, and always will be.
And I'm not sure that, just because Drenthe gave away the ball that led to the second goal, it means that Moyes' judgement was vindicated. Mistakes do happen in a game. And if you look at the second goal again, Jagielka and Distin were also at fault for continually backing off Silva and allowing him to advance. So the fault doesn't all lie with Drenthe, in my opinion.
Alternatively, if giving away the second goal is vindication of Moyes' judgement in not starting Drenthe, then surely you should also say that since the team as a whole gave away the first goal, it goes to show that the tactics and line-up Moyes used to start the game have not been vindicated and that they reflect his lack of judgement. That, to me, is a more plausible explanation.
So, no, I have to disagree with you that Moyes was "making the best of the players he had available". Rather, he was making the best defensive line-up from the players he had available. It's his style, always was, and always will be.
And I'm not sure that, just because Drenthe gave away the ball that led to the second goal, it means that Moyes' judgement was vindicated. Mistakes do happen in a game. And if you look at the second goal again, Jagielka and Distin were also at fault for continually backing off Silva and allowing him to advance. So the fault doesn't all lie with Drenthe, in my opinion.
Alternatively, if giving away the second goal is vindication of Moyes' judgement in not starting Drenthe, then surely you should also say that since the team as a whole gave away the first goal, it goes to show that the tactics and line-up Moyes used to start the game have not been vindicated and that they reflect his lack of judgement. That, to me, is a more plausible explanation.
Marcus Kendall
7 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:36:28
7 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:36:28
wheres the evidence that Yakubu would of been sold to Tottenham if he didn't get injured? thats pure speculation
Shaun Sparke
8 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:33:20
8 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:33:20
Mark, we had a world class striker that didnt cost us a penny, he now plays at Old Trafford. I am not suggesting that it was down to Moyes that he left but you do wonder what would have become of him had he remained at Goodison under Moyes. There is too much evidence available that Moyes and his coaching staff can't get the same level of performance out of forwards as they can out of defenders.
Tom Winek
9 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:30:13
9 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:30:13
All these articles aren't really about Moyes. They're about what we expect from Everton this season. The unrealistic ones expect us to compete with the wealthy teams with the best squads. Man City played with a completely different starting 11 in the CC last week. The there are those like me who are a little bit more realistic and expect us to finish anywhere from 7th-15th.
Marcus Kendall
10 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:44:57
10 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:44:57
what a load of rubbish Mr Winek!
Its not about losing to Man City (Plastic Club) but the manner of defeat! Plus Moyes is the same against the likes of QPR/Wigan too!
Is it so wrong to call him out on his negativity? Or do we just accept that since were not a wealthy club we shouldn't even try to be positive?
Its not about losing to Man City (Plastic Club) but the manner of defeat! Plus Moyes is the same against the likes of QPR/Wigan too!
Is it so wrong to call him out on his negativity? Or do we just accept that since were not a wealthy club we shouldn't even try to be positive?
Rob Teo
11 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:44:49
11 Posted 27/09/2011 at 15:44:49
Tom#9: You're half right - realistically, we'll probably finish, at best, in 7th position.
But you're also wrong in saying it's not about Moyes. I, along with many others here, expect that the team he puts out will go out to fight tooth and nail for that 7th spot (and if we're really lucky, higher). Instead, what he's done time and time again is to put out a team whose sole objective is to make sure we don't finish below 15th. And therein lies the difference.
But you're also wrong in saying it's not about Moyes. I, along with many others here, expect that the team he puts out will go out to fight tooth and nail for that 7th spot (and if we're really lucky, higher). Instead, what he's done time and time again is to put out a team whose sole objective is to make sure we don't finish below 15th. And therein lies the difference.
Ian Tunstead
12 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:00:32
12 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:00:32
There is a huge difference, Gray and Sharp were proven experienced top strikers in the game. Strac and Vellios are neither proven to be any good and have almost zero experince to be played in such an important game agaist top quality opposition. Saha is constantly injured or as a consequence not match fit, and doesnt help himself or the team by not wanting to play for the reserves. How can you compare Gray and Sharp to Vellios and Stac, absolutley rediculous.
I've got a better idea lets say what the team would have been had we not had Gray or Sharp or if they were both injured.
I've got a better idea lets say what the team would have been had we not had Gray or Sharp or if they were both injured.
Shaun Sparke
13 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:09:49
13 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:09:49
Ian, Sharp was a nobody when he came to Goodison, just a promising youngster if I can Recall. Granted, Gray was a proven goalscorer but it looked as though his best days were behind him. Do you think Moyes would have got the same out of them as Kendall did? Impossible to answer but not impossible to give an honest opinion
John Daley
14 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:20:17
14 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:20:17
"I've got a better idea lets say what the team would have been had we not had Gray or Sharp or if they were both injured."
Would Kendall not have just played a perm-tastic partnership of Heath and Wilkinson up top? It wouldn't have entered his balding head to play with no forwards whatsoever.
Would Kendall not have just played a perm-tastic partnership of Heath and Wilkinson up top? It wouldn't have entered his balding head to play with no forwards whatsoever.
Steve Higham
15 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:41:47
15 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:41:47
Tom #11
I don't expect us to win the premiership,but what I do expect at a game is for us to have a go. I do not expect our manager to give in at the pre match conference. I do not expect our manager to play no centre forward 4-6-0.
Is it unrealisitic for Everton to play some positive football? When I go the game if the lads have given it a good go fair enough- what I wont put up with boring negative tatics and setting the team up to fail before they go out on the pitch.
I don't expect us to win the premiership,but what I do expect at a game is for us to have a go. I do not expect our manager to give in at the pre match conference. I do not expect our manager to play no centre forward 4-6-0.
Is it unrealisitic for Everton to play some positive football? When I go the game if the lads have given it a good go fair enough- what I wont put up with boring negative tatics and setting the team up to fail before they go out on the pitch.
Tom Winek
16 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:44:55
16 Posted 27/09/2011 at 16:44:55
Marcus #10
I'm sure Man City couldn't care less about being labelled a 'plastic club'. Rather that than have to sell our best players and moan about not playing a young Greek lad who no one's heard of.
You can call him out on his perceived negativity if you like but I prefer to judge him over the course of 38 games.
If we'd played to our weaknesses at the weekend we'd have been slaughtered. We don't have the ammunition going forward any more. We could've got a point using Moyes's tactics but if we'd attacked like Spurs did then there was no chance.
I'm sure Man City couldn't care less about being labelled a 'plastic club'. Rather that than have to sell our best players and moan about not playing a young Greek lad who no one's heard of.
You can call him out on his perceived negativity if you like but I prefer to judge him over the course of 38 games.
If we'd played to our weaknesses at the weekend we'd have been slaughtered. We don't have the ammunition going forward any more. We could've got a point using Moyes's tactics but if we'd attacked like Spurs did then there was no chance.
Robin Cannon
17 Posted 27/09/2011 at 17:13:49
17 Posted 27/09/2011 at 17:13:49
Although I believe in his autobiography Kendall talks about taking Everton into the away leg against Bayern and playing...um...no strikers. With Trevor Steven in a floating role up front by himself and Alan Harper behind him!
Marcus Kendall
18 Posted 27/09/2011 at 17:29:20
18 Posted 27/09/2011 at 17:29:20
I wasn't aware I said Man City were bothered about me calling them a Plastic Club, its just an observation unless you think they got to where they are using their natural means!
Theres no proof we would of got hammered by playing more adventurously, again the pure speculation and the pitiful fright fans like yourself portray really astound me
Theres no proof we would of got hammered by playing more adventurously, again the pure speculation and the pitiful fright fans like yourself portray really astound me
Gavin Ramejkis
19 Posted 27/09/2011 at 18:19:09
19 Posted 27/09/2011 at 18:19:09
Mark #3 it was the moronic stubborness of Gollum that attemtped to play Beckford as a lone striker, even if he couldn't have been arsed to scout him any kid on the Leeds terraces could have told him he played best alongside another striker, remember him playing alongside Saha? Unfortunately Moyes will never be a great manager as he simply hasn't got a plan B, he plays against Man U its the same formation and strategy as he plays against QPR or Wigan, a truly great manager will play a match on its own merits and be willing to change things if its going wrong early enough to make a difference.
Jackie Barry
20 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:43:18
20 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:43:18
The excuses made are almost laughable. Moyes had no expectations and therefore made no effort to fullfil any expectations. Most people will be happy when they see the team they support did their best and still lost. The problem is that what we watched was a pile of dog poo, it stank, and showed nothing but a defeatest attitude.
Jackie Barry
21 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:53:33
21 Posted 27/09/2011 at 19:53:33
Gavin you hit the nail on the head.
David Hallwood
22 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:25:41
22 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:25:41
Sorry to say this Shaun, but one of the silliest posts that's been on TW (and that's saying something). Firstly Sharp & Gray were top class strikers, so the thought of any manager not playing at least one of them is-well silly.
Secondly, if Moyes had players as good as them in this era with premier league experience, say Kevin Davies, or the way he pulls away from his marker to create space, Van Der Vaart, reminds me of Sharpy, don't you think Moyes would've played them? Even Crouch or Craig effin Bellamy would've played.
Why can't people realise that out of the 4 strikers we've got, one of them is injured (and shite BTW), the next in the pecking order Saha, isn't match fit, or has played so little football in the last year that he can't be match fit, and will probably be injured before Christmas. The other two are unknown quantities and as Moyes is working with them on a daily basis, obviously feels that they haven't got 90 minutes in them.
So that leaves the make do and mend option, and you can blame Moyes for a lot of things but he's stuck with that one.
Secondly, if Moyes had players as good as them in this era with premier league experience, say Kevin Davies, or the way he pulls away from his marker to create space, Van Der Vaart, reminds me of Sharpy, don't you think Moyes would've played them? Even Crouch or Craig effin Bellamy would've played.
Why can't people realise that out of the 4 strikers we've got, one of them is injured (and shite BTW), the next in the pecking order Saha, isn't match fit, or has played so little football in the last year that he can't be match fit, and will probably be injured before Christmas. The other two are unknown quantities and as Moyes is working with them on a daily basis, obviously feels that they haven't got 90 minutes in them.
So that leaves the make do and mend option, and you can blame Moyes for a lot of things but he's stuck with that one.
Ian Tunstead
23 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:39:22
23 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:39:22
Shaun, my opinion is if Moyes had forwards of the quality of Man City who were fit and on form he would play them. Moyes has to play to his teams strengths, which is in defensive mode. Man City now have some of the best attacking players in the league so it makes more sense to have a more attcking set up, rather than last season when they had a more defensive set up before they brought in their latest top attacking talent. It all comes down to money and who can afford the best players.
We could have gone toe to toe with City but the likley outcome would probably similar to the Spurs result.
My opinion is based off one game anyway i prefer to judge after a number of games or a season. Man City beat us once in about in 6 attempts which is not bad going and for the people who bring up one off Bolton, Stoke and Fulham results, that all they or one offs. Lets see were they end up at the end of 38 games.
We could have gone toe to toe with City but the likley outcome would probably similar to the Spurs result.
My opinion is based off one game anyway i prefer to judge after a number of games or a season. Man City beat us once in about in 6 attempts which is not bad going and for the people who bring up one off Bolton, Stoke and Fulham results, that all they or one offs. Lets see were they end up at the end of 38 games.
Alan Clarke
24 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:58:54
24 Posted 27/09/2011 at 20:58:54
Moyes has a dislike of strikers. At some point or another he's fallen out with all of them - Rooney, Beattie, AJ, Yak, Vaughan, Anichebe and now Saha. The only one he truly loved was Marcus Bent because all he really did was basically defend by hassling the opposition defence.
Strikers are a different breed to defenders and Moyes was a defender as was Round. Strikers became strikers for the glory. They don't want to chase long balls into channels. They want the ball at their feet, showing off their skills and scoring goals. They all fall out with Moyes because he just wants to tire them out defending first before attacking.
At Everton, we love a grafter don't we? So we've always sided with the manager and thought these strikers to be petulent. The fact is Moyes can't coach strikers. He can't get the best out of them. He doesn't understand them. They don't fit into his work ethic. Cahill does, that's why he loves him as a striker. But give me a Drogba who can actually score any day.
Strikers are a different breed to defenders and Moyes was a defender as was Round. Strikers became strikers for the glory. They don't want to chase long balls into channels. They want the ball at their feet, showing off their skills and scoring goals. They all fall out with Moyes because he just wants to tire them out defending first before attacking.
At Everton, we love a grafter don't we? So we've always sided with the manager and thought these strikers to be petulent. The fact is Moyes can't coach strikers. He can't get the best out of them. He doesn't understand them. They don't fit into his work ethic. Cahill does, that's why he loves him as a striker. But give me a Drogba who can actually score any day.
Colin Grierson
25 Posted 27/09/2011 at 21:50:51
25 Posted 27/09/2011 at 21:50:51
Ian # 23 - 'Moyes has to play to his teams strengths, which is in defensive mode' - Moyes has bought this team and you're right, the team's strength is defensive. That says it all to me. I know it is not easy competing with the top clubs on a limited budget but that's what you pay a manager £3m a year isn't it? He buys defensive sides. Regardless of injury problems he sets his sides up to stifle and that is not what I want to watch. Moyes is culpable with regard to our playing style.
I understand your argument that he should be judged over a larger amount of games, however, he's been here a while and I'm sick of the dire football we play and cant stomach another season of it.
I understand your argument that he should be judged over a larger amount of games, however, he's been here a while and I'm sick of the dire football we play and cant stomach another season of it.
Trevor Lynes
27 Posted 27/09/2011 at 22:36:55
27 Posted 27/09/2011 at 22:36:55
I can remember decent EFC sides that had real legends..... now we make legends out of mediocre players who might score a goal against Liverpool to attain that status..Apart from defenders I cannot think of any other player in our team who would be coveted by any other team in the premier.
Ciarán McGlone
28 Posted 27/09/2011 at 22:42:16
28 Posted 27/09/2011 at 22:42:16
Mr Tunstead,
Are you ever going to stop repeating the idiotic fallacy that we would've lost heavily if we had tried to play a game of football?
It's quite possibly one of the stupidly framed defences of Moyes I've ever heard.
Please stop repeating this nonsense and find a proper fucking argument.
Are you ever going to stop repeating the idiotic fallacy that we would've lost heavily if we had tried to play a game of football?
It's quite possibly one of the stupidly framed defences of Moyes I've ever heard.
Please stop repeating this nonsense and find a proper fucking argument.
Chris Leyland
29 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:08:54
29 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:08:54
Ciaran
Why is it an "idiotic fallacy that we would've lost heavily if we had tried to play a game of football?"
What is your "expert" argument as to what would have happened?
Why is it an "idiotic fallacy that we would've lost heavily if we had tried to play a game of football?"
What is your "expert" argument as to what would have happened?
Dan Brierley
30 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:13:09
30 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:13:09
Ciaran, its not idiotic at all. It based on fact:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/8722402/Tottenham-Hotspur-1-Manchester-City-5-match-report.html
Spurs 'went for it', and got hammered at home 1-5.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/8722402/Tottenham-Hotspur-1-Manchester-City-5-match-report.html
Spurs 'went for it', and got hammered at home 1-5.
Shaun Sparke
31 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:16:07
31 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:16:07
David #22 No offence taken at your silliest post comment, you are entitled to your opinion which is fine by me. I would like to ask you who has been the manager for the past 10 years at this club? In this time Moyes has had some money to spend and apart from one decent return from the Yak has not managed to find a regular 20 goal a season striker. I am not jumping on the bandwaggon of having a go at Moyes just for the sake of it. I am being realistic and looking at the evidence.
I honestly think that the die is cast with Moyes and his strengths are ones of a defensive nature. I may have been a little flippant with the Sharp, Gray analogy but you can't honestly tell me that you are happy with the team that he picked on Saturday are you?
I honestly think that the die is cast with Moyes and his strengths are ones of a defensive nature. I may have been a little flippant with the Sharp, Gray analogy but you can't honestly tell me that you are happy with the team that he picked on Saturday are you?
Ciarán McGlone
32 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:24:08
32 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:24:08
Oh I see, Dan... Because Spurs got hammered, then it's a logical assumption that the same would've happened to us.
Sometimes you lot frighten me. Seriously.
Sometimes you lot frighten me. Seriously.
Shaun Sparke
33 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:26:31
33 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:26:31
Dan, you can't use that argument. Fulham went for it and drew 2-2 at home. It doesn't prove a thing.
Ciarán McGlone
34 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:28:56
34 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:28:56
Shaun,
The red hand gang will defend him to the hilt - no matter what. You only have to look at their bending of logic above, to realise this. Some of the arguments they'll employ are bordering on insane.
It's fucking weird.
The red hand gang will defend him to the hilt - no matter what. You only have to look at their bending of logic above, to realise this. Some of the arguments they'll employ are bordering on insane.
It's fucking weird.
Trevor Mackie
35 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:45:46
35 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:45:46
Well said Ciaran.
This "red hand" gang are little kids playing at grown up debate.
I'm waiting for one of the nutters to use the Holmer Simpson argument:
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."
This "red hand" gang are little kids playing at grown up debate.
I'm waiting for one of the nutters to use the Holmer Simpson argument:
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."
Chris Leyland
36 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:55:07
36 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:55:07
Ciaran - my Nan (God rest her soul) used to say if you have nothing worth saying, then it's not worth saying anything. Could I suggest that you adopt this as your mantra from now on?
Just posting smug comments does not really add anything to the debate (so I've done it now to prove the point).
The irony of your posts is that you slag off other posters for defending Moyes "no matter what" whilst not appreciating that you hold the opposite view point and will therefore post contrary comments "no matter what" yourself.
If you diagree with someone it isn't neccesary to belittle them with comments like "you lot frighten me" "it's fucking weird "find a proper fucking argument" "stop repeating this nonsense" etc.
Maybe instead you could try winning the debate based on the strength of your point of view without sinking to this kind of debating style..... Just a thought.
Just posting smug comments does not really add anything to the debate (so I've done it now to prove the point).
The irony of your posts is that you slag off other posters for defending Moyes "no matter what" whilst not appreciating that you hold the opposite view point and will therefore post contrary comments "no matter what" yourself.
If you diagree with someone it isn't neccesary to belittle them with comments like "you lot frighten me" "it's fucking weird "find a proper fucking argument" "stop repeating this nonsense" etc.
Maybe instead you could try winning the debate based on the strength of your point of view without sinking to this kind of debating style..... Just a thought.
Kevin Hudson
37 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:03:49
37 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:03:49
Quite amazing considering the hysteria, vitriol & navel-gazing going on here, that Everton have made their best start to the Premier League since 2004.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Gerry Quinn
38 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:16:51
38 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:16:51
I see that Tevez refused to come on as a substitute in the CL match tonight - can you imagine the outcry from TW fans if Anichebe did that?
Also noted that Mancini said he screwed up by playing 2 attackers at Bayern - well, well - more comment on that please guys - does he think Moysie has the right attitude to those type of away games?
Also noted that Mancini said he screwed up by playing 2 attackers at Bayern - well, well - more comment on that please guys - does he think Moysie has the right attitude to those type of away games?
Jimmy Sorheim
39 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:50:17
39 Posted 27/09/2011 at 23:50:17
I have noticed that, after the City game, many fans who have complained about Kenwright now have started complaining about Moyes instead. His tactics and player picks are not great, but I think people just want a change anyway.
Moyes must go to give this club a new life, fresh blood that can view our squad differently. Problem is that, no matter how many times you complain against Moyes, Kenwright will keep him and prolong his contract, even if we go down to the Championship.
Now I can only see one thing changeing this and that is if the fans show their unrest during football matches. Unless you are willing to do that, I don't see what the point is to post anything about Moyes. You will not be heard, and certainly you will not be heard by Moyes. He is God in Kenwright's eyes, and Moyes doing what he has is the one thing keeping Kenwright here and he knows it.
Moyes takes the blame for him during the season and in pre-season Kenwright hides in his office and talks to the banks. After 10 years with Moyes people feel it is time for a change and I agree. Only the only way change can happen is if the fans make it happen.
Unless people start shouting out at Moyes we will still have him for another 3 years and soon he will be given a new contract also. This is the perfect time to shout out against Moyes, as by January it will almost be too late because then he will be way too expensive to fire.
Ian Tunstead
40 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:12:10
40 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:12:10
Ciarán it's not an argument, its just my opinion, but i will give you an argument to back my opinion as that is what you have asked for.
It was 0-0 untill Moyes put his striker on, within minutes it was 1-0. Rodwell who had neutralised Silva up until that point must have then been instructed to get more involved in the attacking play as he was clearly no longer shadowing Silva, within minutes, Silva had a goal dissalowed which was just off side, hit the post and set up a goal. By the time the 2nd goal went in we had 2 strikers on and an attacking midfileder who give possesion away cheaply and contributed to the goal.
Therefore i think it is reasonable to say the score could have been like the spurs result. Zero goasl after 70+ mins with no strikers. In the other 20 mins with strikers, 2 goals conceded a goal dissalowed, post hit, could very nearly have been 4 nil over a 20 minute period of having the strikers on.
It was 0-0 untill Moyes put his striker on, within minutes it was 1-0. Rodwell who had neutralised Silva up until that point must have then been instructed to get more involved in the attacking play as he was clearly no longer shadowing Silva, within minutes, Silva had a goal dissalowed which was just off side, hit the post and set up a goal. By the time the 2nd goal went in we had 2 strikers on and an attacking midfileder who give possesion away cheaply and contributed to the goal.
Therefore i think it is reasonable to say the score could have been like the spurs result. Zero goasl after 70+ mins with no strikers. In the other 20 mins with strikers, 2 goals conceded a goal dissalowed, post hit, could very nearly have been 4 nil over a 20 minute period of having the strikers on.
Ian Tunstead
41 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:26:54
41 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:26:54
Colin, i think one of the main reasons he has to buy defenders rather than attacking players is because generally attacking players or match winners are more expensive than defenders.
Obviously Moyes will be better at spotting a defender with potential as well as he was a defender so it is less of a risk to him to bring in defenders. But i would rather stick with Moyes than bring in any of the clowns who have been mentioned on here over recent years who time after time finish below Moyes, even if they do get a freak result over a top 4 team once over the course of a season.
Obviously Moyes will be better at spotting a defender with potential as well as he was a defender so it is less of a risk to him to bring in defenders. But i would rather stick with Moyes than bring in any of the clowns who have been mentioned on here over recent years who time after time finish below Moyes, even if they do get a freak result over a top 4 team once over the course of a season.
Roy McCue
42 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:31:22
42 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:31:22
Jimmy - get a life - tell me who's going to replace him?
Precisely - no-one - we're skint.
Chris good analysis of Ciaron - clever put downs with no follow up of how we change it - for God's sake we have no money for God's sake!
Precisely - no-one - we're skint.
Chris good analysis of Ciaron - clever put downs with no follow up of how we change it - for God's sake we have no money for God's sake!
Jimmy Sorheim
43 Posted 28/09/2011 at 01:10:32
43 Posted 28/09/2011 at 01:10:32
Roy tel me to get a life is hopeless as we both are on here debating, so that means that you think you should aqlso get a life. Being an Evertonian is not very funny at this moment in time, and I dont think you are here to debate, only knock other posters. If I am right why dont you get a life? It would be more constructive of you to write your own view instead of picking on what is wrong with others, that would get your point across much better than "get a life" and "for God`s sake".
David Hallwood
44 Posted 28/09/2011 at 01:10:49
44 Posted 28/09/2011 at 01:10:49
Ciarán & Shaun, what is this red hand gang shite anyway? Some people are so anti something that they lose all logic. Let's have a proper what if.
What if Saha had been fully fit, an ever present, maybe scored the odd goal or two, or even if our Vic had been fit, and either one had been dropped for Moyes to play 4-6-0, well every one would have every right to slag Moyes.
But that isn't the case-one's out injured one isn't match fit and needs to be eased back into full match fitness. The debate really is why didn't Moyes start with Vellios or Strac, and it's obvious to anyone who's played or watched football is that they're not ready to lead the line for a full 90 mins, and need 20-30 here 45 mins there to get up to speed.
Frankly I'm amazed why people are commenting on Moyes' 'negativity' , knowing what the situation is. He certainly is cautious possibly negative but this situation has been thrust on him.
What if Saha had been fully fit, an ever present, maybe scored the odd goal or two, or even if our Vic had been fit, and either one had been dropped for Moyes to play 4-6-0, well every one would have every right to slag Moyes.
But that isn't the case-one's out injured one isn't match fit and needs to be eased back into full match fitness. The debate really is why didn't Moyes start with Vellios or Strac, and it's obvious to anyone who's played or watched football is that they're not ready to lead the line for a full 90 mins, and need 20-30 here 45 mins there to get up to speed.
Frankly I'm amazed why people are commenting on Moyes' 'negativity' , knowing what the situation is. He certainly is cautious possibly negative but this situation has been thrust on him.
Roman Sidey
45 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:10:36
45 Posted 28/09/2011 at 00:10:36
Ciarán, thanks for the new term. Red Hand Gang sounds like a good use for the season in place of Apologists. I know the Apologists don't like being called that, so if we change it they can't complain, right?
Anyone who thinks the striker problem at Everton is anyone but the management/coaching staff's fault is delusional and clutching at straws with their excuses.
Anyone who thinks the striker problem at Everton is anyone but the management/coaching staff's fault is delusional and clutching at straws with their excuses.
Roman Sidey
46 Posted 28/09/2011 at 01:28:59
46 Posted 28/09/2011 at 01:28:59
And really, if people continue to defend Moyes' selections, or lack there of, without including a striker, answer me this question:
If Howard was injured, and Moyes selected Jags in goal instead of Mucha or Hahnsie (what the fuck, why, I thought we couldn't afford wages), would you defend him saying that he's playing the best team available to him?
If Howard was injured, and Moyes selected Jags in goal instead of Mucha or Hahnsie (what the fuck, why, I thought we couldn't afford wages), would you defend him saying that he's playing the best team available to him?
Charlie Percival
47 Posted 28/09/2011 at 05:38:51
47 Posted 28/09/2011 at 05:38:51
Whats the Utd squad?
Charlie Percival
48 Posted 28/09/2011 at 05:40:33
48 Posted 28/09/2011 at 05:40:33
Gavin believe it or not, you do have a lot of common sense x
Derek Thomas
49 Posted 28/09/2011 at 06:05:16
49 Posted 28/09/2011 at 06:05:16
Mark Gargan#1 No, No, No! Exactly the oppostite and that's the whole thing in a nutshell.... Moyes was making the worst use of the players avaliable to him.
Take these statements;
You won't get match fit sat on the bench.
If you're fit enough to make it to the bench, you should be fit enough to play.
You could be on after 2 mins and have to do the other 88mins.
Since the start of the season we have had Moyeses ultra cautiousness and it hasn't set the world on fire.
There comes a time when self belief in your own methods crosses over the line into...absolute refusal to see what, to 58% of us, is a plain as the nose on your face, an in-grained stubborness to change, I am right ( what do you know,) I must be right because that is my opinion and it is right because it is my opinion...and so on into the bunker moving none existent divisions while the enemy are at the outskirts in their 100,000's.
TAXI for Moyes.
Take these statements;
You won't get match fit sat on the bench.
If you're fit enough to make it to the bench, you should be fit enough to play.
You could be on after 2 mins and have to do the other 88mins.
Since the start of the season we have had Moyeses ultra cautiousness and it hasn't set the world on fire.
There comes a time when self belief in your own methods crosses over the line into...absolute refusal to see what, to 58% of us, is a plain as the nose on your face, an in-grained stubborness to change, I am right ( what do you know,) I must be right because that is my opinion and it is right because it is my opinion...and so on into the bunker moving none existent divisions while the enemy are at the outskirts in their 100,000's.
TAXI for Moyes.
Dick Fearon
50 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:21:37
50 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:21:37
If proof was needed that we should have been more attack minded against 'City' look no further than that clubs Champions league fixture vs Bayern.
They were handed a comprehensive lesson in all aspects of the game.
Not only that but their off field lack of discipline and club spirit was a disgrace.
They were handed a comprehensive lesson in all aspects of the game.
Not only that but their off field lack of discipline and club spirit was a disgrace.
Erik Dols
51 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:36:54
51 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:36:54
Dick, although it may be hard to admit for some evertonians, Bayern have a better team than we. They played the final of the CL two years ago and of our midfielders and attacking players, only Fellaini would have a chance of making their first team.
Don't get me wrong, I think we should have played a more attacking game against City, but comparing our game to Bayern makes no sense...
Don't get me wrong, I think we should have played a more attacking game against City, but comparing our game to Bayern makes no sense...
Mark Gargan
52 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:50:02
52 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:50:02
Derek Thomas - a player may be fit enough for 20 minutes and worth having on the bench but not fit enough for the full 90- or 88 mins. If someone gets injured after 2 minutes you do not bring that player on, unless he is your only option and have to put up with the fact that he might run out of steam aggravate an injury. All managers use substitutes in this way to get players up to speed.
Ciarán McGlone
53 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:54:28
53 Posted 28/09/2011 at 08:54:28
Chris Leyland. Here's another thought I.ve won the debate through the stupidity of your argument, and what's even worse is that you can.t see it. Smugness.? I couldn't care less. I'm sure your grans got some mindless platitude about it though.
Trevor Owens
54 Posted 28/09/2011 at 09:35:08
54 Posted 28/09/2011 at 09:35:08
I was gutted to see us roll over at City. They're spoilt brats, we could've turned them if we'd got stuck in.
That's now two Manc stadiums we cower at. Nonsense ? we still have the tools to have a go at them! Don't be awed by their shallow riches. WE ARE EVERTON!
Ciarán McGlone
55 Posted 28/09/2011 at 09:44:03
55 Posted 28/09/2011 at 09:44:03
Ian
Stating the fact that we conceded a goal trying to play more attacking football after 70 mins of defensive, dour shite - does not in any way, shape or form support the conclusion that we'd have got hammered if we'd have played that way from the start..
You really are stretching logic to breaking point.
We were set up to lose before a ball was kicked... therefore to change that strategy with 20 minutes to go already puts our players at a disadvantage.....Moyes tactics effectively tells the players that they're not good enough to beat the team in front of them...that puts us at a psychological disadvantage from the start..
We will never know what would've happened had we attempted to play an attacking game of football...That's the only fact we have at your disposal.
Stating the fact that we conceded a goal trying to play more attacking football after 70 mins of defensive, dour shite - does not in any way, shape or form support the conclusion that we'd have got hammered if we'd have played that way from the start..
You really are stretching logic to breaking point.
We were set up to lose before a ball was kicked... therefore to change that strategy with 20 minutes to go already puts our players at a disadvantage.....Moyes tactics effectively tells the players that they're not good enough to beat the team in front of them...that puts us at a psychological disadvantage from the start..
We will never know what would've happened had we attempted to play an attacking game of football...That's the only fact we have at your disposal.
Alan Clarke
56 Posted 28/09/2011 at 09:59:30
56 Posted 28/09/2011 at 09:59:30
Saha was fit, he declared himself fit the week before on twitter hence his annoyance at being left out of the squad against Wigan. Moyes said he wasn't fit for 2 reasons: one, he was teaching him a lesson for speaking out of line on his twitter account and two, Moyes wanted to justify playing with no strikers.
Drew O'Neall
57 Posted 28/09/2011 at 10:00:49
57 Posted 28/09/2011 at 10:00:49
Ciaran,
As usual your posts are more about arguing than they are making any constructive points about Everton.
Perhaps you should join a debating club, political party, or you could just aim your vitriolic abuse at passing traffic, because you clearly don't derive any pleasure from supporting Everton and arguing semantics with football supporters is surely the least productive or challenging occupation of your talents.
I dare say you'll come back with something about this containing nothing about Everton and just being an argument but frankly you and your kind are stinking up this site and someone needs to point it out.
Bonjour.
As usual your posts are more about arguing than they are making any constructive points about Everton.
Perhaps you should join a debating club, political party, or you could just aim your vitriolic abuse at passing traffic, because you clearly don't derive any pleasure from supporting Everton and arguing semantics with football supporters is surely the least productive or challenging occupation of your talents.
I dare say you'll come back with something about this containing nothing about Everton and just being an argument but frankly you and your kind are stinking up this site and someone needs to point it out.
Bonjour.
Nick Entwistle
58 Posted 28/09/2011 at 10:13:10
58 Posted 28/09/2011 at 10:13:10
Christ Drew, don't encourage him!
I'd love a McGlone v Marsh battle though.
I'd love a McGlone v Marsh battle though.
Shaun Sparke
59 Posted 28/09/2011 at 10:08:00
59 Posted 28/09/2011 at 10:08:00
David #43. I responded to your comment regarding the silliest post you have seen in an adult manner and asked you a question as to whether you were happy with the team that Moyes put out on Saturday. You have not answered that particular question and jumped to Moyes defence by saying the current situation has been forced upon him. But do you honestly believe that he could not have put out a more attacking team because the forwards we have are not good enough?
As I have said earlier, he has been the manager for long enough now and it is his squad of players, he has repeated often enough that he has to make do with what he has got. My argument is that he has failed to get the best out of the forwards that he has had at his disposal.
Please cut out the anti-Moyes rubbish accusations. I am pro-Everton, and if I think somebody made an error in team selection I have every right to say so, it doesnt make me anti-Moyes.
As I have said earlier, he has been the manager for long enough now and it is his squad of players, he has repeated often enough that he has to make do with what he has got. My argument is that he has failed to get the best out of the forwards that he has had at his disposal.
Please cut out the anti-Moyes rubbish accusations. I am pro-Everton, and if I think somebody made an error in team selection I have every right to say so, it doesnt make me anti-Moyes.
David Bridge
60 Posted 28/09/2011 at 10:41:12
60 Posted 28/09/2011 at 10:41:12
*** MOYES OUT ***
#1 Mark - he only brought Saha on because he was forced to because Cahill got crocked again! Otherwise he would have waited until the 79th minute when we go a goal down to change anythingbagain!
#37 Gerry If Anichebe refused to come on from the subs bench I'd be fucking made up!
#1 Mark - he only brought Saha on because he was forced to because Cahill got crocked again! Otherwise he would have waited until the 79th minute when we go a goal down to change anythingbagain!
#37 Gerry If Anichebe refused to come on from the subs bench I'd be fucking made up!
Kevin Hudson
61 Posted 28/09/2011 at 10:40:35
61 Posted 28/09/2011 at 10:40:35
Ciaran McGlone said:
" I couldn't care less. I'm sure your gran's got some mindless platitude about it though."
In direct response to Chris Leyland's: " My nan (God rest her soul)"
SURELY insulting someone's (possibly deceased) relative is beyond the pale.
Disgusted.
" I couldn't care less. I'm sure your gran's got some mindless platitude about it though."
In direct response to Chris Leyland's: " My nan (God rest her soul)"
SURELY insulting someone's (possibly deceased) relative is beyond the pale.
Disgusted.
Ciarán McGlone
62 Posted 28/09/2011 at 11:48:49
62 Posted 28/09/2011 at 11:48:49
Drew. I think the phrase you were looking for was 'au revoir'.
Kevin Hudson
63 Posted 28/09/2011 at 11:59:32
63 Posted 28/09/2011 at 11:59:32
Ciaran,
I think Drew was referencing Only Fools & Horses.
I think Drew was referencing Only Fools & Horses.
Drew O'Neall
64 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:01:50
64 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:01:50
It's an Only Fools and Horses homage to Del Boy..
Drew O'Neall
65 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:04:01
65 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:04:01
Kev, beat me to it.. glad that wasn't too obscure.
Brian Waring
66 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:54:31
66 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:54:31
So at the end of they day, the tactics we're not to concede more than Spurs.
Ian Tunstead
67 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:52:07
67 Posted 28/09/2011 at 12:52:07
Roman its a completly different argument. For one Moyes would never and has never put Jaggs in goal ahead of Mucha as he has not proved himself to be a better goal keeper than Mucha. Cahill has proved him self to be a better attacking force than Vellios and Strac.
Answer me this question. If you were a betting man and you had to put a bet on either Cahill Vellios or strac to be top goal scorer over the course of a season, who would you put your money on? Cahill a proven top midfield goal scorer internationally and the premeir league, and most consistant goal scorer against the top teams, including Man City. Or a greek 19 year old who has had less than half a dozzen sub appearances, or would you put your money on Strac who has one sub appearance and was turned down by Leicester City?
Obviously Moyes is a bit more sensible and realistic than most on here.
Answer me this question. If you were a betting man and you had to put a bet on either Cahill Vellios or strac to be top goal scorer over the course of a season, who would you put your money on? Cahill a proven top midfield goal scorer internationally and the premeir league, and most consistant goal scorer against the top teams, including Man City. Or a greek 19 year old who has had less than half a dozzen sub appearances, or would you put your money on Strac who has one sub appearance and was turned down by Leicester City?
Obviously Moyes is a bit more sensible and realistic than most on here.
Ian Tunstead
68 Posted 28/09/2011 at 13:05:39
68 Posted 28/09/2011 at 13:05:39
Ciarán
"We will never know what would've happened had we attempted to play an attacking game of football...That's the only fact we have at your disposal. "
The fact is we we did try to play attcking football when we brought the strikers on and an attacking midfielder and we conceded 2, had a goal dissolowed against us and they hit the post while we were attacking them.
You have clearly lost the argument, we went toe to toe with City around the 70 minute mark and were spanked. If we started the game with the team that finished the game and played it over the entire 90 mins it coud have been a massacre.
"We will never know what would've happened had we attempted to play an attacking game of football...That's the only fact we have at your disposal. "
The fact is we we did try to play attcking football when we brought the strikers on and an attacking midfielder and we conceded 2, had a goal dissolowed against us and they hit the post while we were attacking them.
You have clearly lost the argument, we went toe to toe with City around the 70 minute mark and were spanked. If we started the game with the team that finished the game and played it over the entire 90 mins it coud have been a massacre.
Shaun Sparke
69 Posted 28/09/2011 at 14:11:54
69 Posted 28/09/2011 at 14:11:54
Ian, you seem to put a lot of thought and effort into winning an argument with Ciarán. Its such a shame that Moyes didn't put the same effort into winning at Man City. You are totally right of course it could have been a massacre had Moyes put out a more attacking formation. However, please dont try and deny this, we could also have won. The mighty Basel who's squad dare I suggets cost considerably less than ours stuck 3 past Man Utd last night. How? Because they had a go.
Ciarán McGlone
70 Posted 28/09/2011 at 16:28:15
70 Posted 28/09/2011 at 16:28:15
Ian...
1)Playing from the outset with a positive formation and outlook and with no negative words from our manager....
2)Playing negative defensive football for 70 minutes and then making a couple of substitions that provide us with more attacking threat.
The above are two distinct scenarios...one happened - ONE DIDN'T HAPPEN.
Your extrapolation of the last 20 minutes of scenario 2, in order to predict the utlimate outcome of scenario 1 - WHICH I REPEAT, DID NOT ACTUALLY HAPPEN - is about as scientific as a Gillian Keith book.
Whether you think i've won the argument or not is neither here nor there...
P.S Kevin Hudson - don't be such a pillock. Feigning disgust in order to influence others is pretty low.
If someone uses their gran's cliches to try and prove that I shouldn't post my opinion, then they can expect to have their grans cliches ridiculed.
1)Playing from the outset with a positive formation and outlook and with no negative words from our manager....
2)Playing negative defensive football for 70 minutes and then making a couple of substitions that provide us with more attacking threat.
The above are two distinct scenarios...one happened - ONE DIDN'T HAPPEN.
Your extrapolation of the last 20 minutes of scenario 2, in order to predict the utlimate outcome of scenario 1 - WHICH I REPEAT, DID NOT ACTUALLY HAPPEN - is about as scientific as a Gillian Keith book.
Whether you think i've won the argument or not is neither here nor there...
P.S Kevin Hudson - don't be such a pillock. Feigning disgust in order to influence others is pretty low.
If someone uses their gran's cliches to try and prove that I shouldn't post my opinion, then they can expect to have their grans cliches ridiculed.
Ian Tunstead
71 Posted 28/09/2011 at 17:24:07
71 Posted 28/09/2011 at 17:24:07
Shaun its not much of an effort at all arguing with some of the people on here, most don?t appear to be able to think logically or rationally and hardly ever see the bigger picture. Or in Ciarán case he just talks in riddles and puts people down without offering much of his own opinions or arguments.
I have been commenting on this site for years and I can count on one hand the amount of times anyone has been able to blow any of my arguments out of the water and make me think twice about my opinion. Off the top of my head I can only think of Dave Wilson who has embarrassed me in an argument.
The funny thing is it would be so easy for the Moyes bashers to blow me out the water because I have contradicted myself for years but no one has made a real effort to pin me down.
For a long time I have been waiting for a hiding but thought people must be stupid not to pull me up. But I now don?t believe they are stupid I think it is because their stubbornness to oppose Moyes means they won?t mention my contradictions because it means they would have to say something positive about Moyes.
Basically Moyes has been making a mockery of me and all my understanding and beliefs about football for years. My whole argument has always been that the more money you have means the better players you can buy the best coaches you can have and the best facilities, which in turn means you will finish further up the table than someone who has spent less.
However year after year Moyes consistently finishes above teams that spend more than him and I can not explain it, by my logic with the amount of money we spend, we should be in the championship. Moyes is the exception to the rule, he defies logic in my eyes, and people actually want to get rid of him! Unbelievable. He is the golden goose that keeps plucking miracles out of thin air.
I have been commenting on this site for years and I can count on one hand the amount of times anyone has been able to blow any of my arguments out of the water and make me think twice about my opinion. Off the top of my head I can only think of Dave Wilson who has embarrassed me in an argument.
The funny thing is it would be so easy for the Moyes bashers to blow me out the water because I have contradicted myself for years but no one has made a real effort to pin me down.
For a long time I have been waiting for a hiding but thought people must be stupid not to pull me up. But I now don?t believe they are stupid I think it is because their stubbornness to oppose Moyes means they won?t mention my contradictions because it means they would have to say something positive about Moyes.
Basically Moyes has been making a mockery of me and all my understanding and beliefs about football for years. My whole argument has always been that the more money you have means the better players you can buy the best coaches you can have and the best facilities, which in turn means you will finish further up the table than someone who has spent less.
However year after year Moyes consistently finishes above teams that spend more than him and I can not explain it, by my logic with the amount of money we spend, we should be in the championship. Moyes is the exception to the rule, he defies logic in my eyes, and people actually want to get rid of him! Unbelievable. He is the golden goose that keeps plucking miracles out of thin air.
Ian Tunstead
72 Posted 28/09/2011 at 17:52:27
72 Posted 28/09/2011 at 17:52:27
Ciarán we are just going around in circles, i feel like i have to repeat myself again, lets look at it from another angle. Lets look at the set up against Wigan, it was quite similar to the Man City set up with Cahill up front.
It was 1-1 before we brought on the other attacking options. When he did bring on his attacking options and won the game 3-1 are you saying that the moment he had made all his substitutions we wernt going toe to toe with Wigan and we were not attacking? We must have been because we scored 2 goals and won the game. That is what we did against Man City but Man City were able to cope with out attack much better than Wigan.
It was 1-1 before we brought on the other attacking options. When he did bring on his attacking options and won the game 3-1 are you saying that the moment he had made all his substitutions we wernt going toe to toe with Wigan and we were not attacking? We must have been because we scored 2 goals and won the game. That is what we did against Man City but Man City were able to cope with out attack much better than Wigan.
Colin Wainwright
73 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:06:39
73 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:06:39
Maybe, Ian, he shouldn't have waited until we were 1-1 with the mighty Wigan, until he went toe to toe with them.
Ian Tunstead
74 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:11:54
74 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:11:54
Sorry Shaun i never answered your question. Yes you are right, we could have had a go and we could have won just like the example you mention but there are a lot more exmples of times when Man Utd have destroyed teams like Basel. Moyes likes to play the percentages and thats why over the course of a season he will finish higher than most. It also doesnt help matters when your only attacking options are untried unexperienced and unfit strikers. I
Ian Tunstead
75 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:15:46
75 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:15:46
Colin why shouldnt he? We won, so it worked. Our attacking options were not fit to last 90 mins, so why not use them when they would be most effective against tired legs?
Trevor Mackie
76 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:11:49
76 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:11:49
Ian Tunstead
Nearly pissed myself when I read you've kneeled before Dave Wilson - what an indictment
The only rational comment that fella ever made was in reference to himself.saying:
"I might be wrong..... it won't be the first or the last time" after one of his "black is white" tired and fraught late evening tirades.
Nearly pissed myself when I read you've kneeled before Dave Wilson - what an indictment
The only rational comment that fella ever made was in reference to himself.saying:
"I might be wrong..... it won't be the first or the last time" after one of his "black is white" tired and fraught late evening tirades.
Colin Wainwright
77 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:18:55
77 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:18:55
Sorry Ian. I don't get this 'not fit to last 90 mins'. They're professional footballers.
The point of my post is, we played fuckin awful football against Wigan, until we changed things and played a more attacking game.
That's against wigan.
We go to city, the mighty fuckin city, those indestructibles who scraped a draw against Fulham, set up with the exact same formation that produced such dire football against Wigan. We then play a more attacking formation when we are 1-0 down.
Why not just have a fuckin go from the start.
The point of my post is, we played fuckin awful football against Wigan, until we changed things and played a more attacking game.
That's against wigan.
We go to city, the mighty fuckin city, those indestructibles who scraped a draw against Fulham, set up with the exact same formation that produced such dire football against Wigan. We then play a more attacking formation when we are 1-0 down.
Why not just have a fuckin go from the start.
Ciarán McGlone
78 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:38:50
78 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:38:50
Ian,
I can name another person who appears to be able to embarrass you in an argument.
Ian Tunstead.
Post 70 was worth the entrance fee alone.
I can name another person who appears to be able to embarrass you in an argument.
Ian Tunstead.
Post 70 was worth the entrance fee alone.
Ian Tunstead
79 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:02:12
79 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:02:12
Haha as long as its not you Ciarán. Dave Wilson Dave Moyes and Ian Tunstead is fine by me.
Ian Tunstead
80 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:03:49
80 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:03:49
Trevor this was a long time ago but even so Dave talks much more sense than most on here.
Colin if youve evr played a game of football you would know you need to play games to get "match fit" Just because you are a proffesional footballer doesnt mean you can be at pe fitness every day of your life, why else would teams have pre-season to prpare themselves? Gueye has been injured as has Saha Drenthe and Strac havnt had a pre season. Also if you are not 100% fit going into a game its much easier to get an injury as your body finds it difficult to cope with the pace and the physicality of the game
Colin if youve evr played a game of football you would know you need to play games to get "match fit" Just because you are a proffesional footballer doesnt mean you can be at pe fitness every day of your life, why else would teams have pre-season to prpare themselves? Gueye has been injured as has Saha Drenthe and Strac havnt had a pre season. Also if you are not 100% fit going into a game its much easier to get an injury as your body finds it difficult to cope with the pace and the physicality of the game
Ian Tunstead
81 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:09:15
81 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:09:15
By the way Ciarán thanks for proving my point when i said "he just talks in riddles and puts people down without offering much of his own opinions or arguments."
Typical Ciaran, throws an insult without any real contribution to the argument.
Typical Ciaran, throws an insult without any real contribution to the argument.
Ian Edwards
82 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:05:36
82 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:05:36
Ian Tunstead
Moyes underachieves given the players he has. He has spen big.
Last season we failed to beat 7 of the bottom 10 at home due solely to negative tactics. This cost usa place in Europe.
Fulham scored twice against City by going at them. Moyes waved the white flag before the game. As for his miserable comment about picking that team because of the opposition then what was his excuse against Wigan at home?
Howe many times are we going to see a negative formation not working and then having to chase the game in the second half?
Moyes is tactically inept, cowardly and very small time.... but he gets away with it because small time fans like you fail to see the bigger picture.
Finally, how many managers losing in a cup final wouldnt bring on a forward.? "Oh Davey Moyes.... Davey Davey Davey Moyes" .... join in ad nauseum Mr Tunstead.
Moyes underachieves given the players he has. He has spen big.
Last season we failed to beat 7 of the bottom 10 at home due solely to negative tactics. This cost usa place in Europe.
Fulham scored twice against City by going at them. Moyes waved the white flag before the game. As for his miserable comment about picking that team because of the opposition then what was his excuse against Wigan at home?
Howe many times are we going to see a negative formation not working and then having to chase the game in the second half?
Moyes is tactically inept, cowardly and very small time.... but he gets away with it because small time fans like you fail to see the bigger picture.
Finally, how many managers losing in a cup final wouldnt bring on a forward.? "Oh Davey Moyes.... Davey Davey Davey Moyes" .... join in ad nauseum Mr Tunstead.
Kevin Hudson
83 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:25:35
83 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:25:35
Ciaran,
At what point during a football discussion do you think it's apprpriate to mock somebody's elderly relative?
Chris Leyland referenced his nan, and added the words: "God rest her soul.." What does that tell you..? Can you see past your unremitting anger, stop fighting your own Vietnam - and pause for a moment's reflection?
Rather than cynically claiming that I'm "feigning disgust?" Why sure - it's perfectly normal to exploit someone's admission of a soft-spot for their own nan, and ram it back down their thoat!
Neither am I trying to influence others. I've thus far contributed only 1 post (36) to the actual debate taking place. I just thought it was a real shitty thing to say. It WAS disgusting.
This is supposed to be a discussion about Everton. Conducting personal attacks on another poster's (possibly deceased) nan ( who YOU twice referred to as Gran) has surely crossed the line of acceptability.
No regard for dignity at all.
I could care less who "wins," the football debate.
You insulted the guy's nan for Pete's sake..
Show a little respect & apologise. You were out of order.
At what point during a football discussion do you think it's apprpriate to mock somebody's elderly relative?
Chris Leyland referenced his nan, and added the words: "God rest her soul.." What does that tell you..? Can you see past your unremitting anger, stop fighting your own Vietnam - and pause for a moment's reflection?
Rather than cynically claiming that I'm "feigning disgust?" Why sure - it's perfectly normal to exploit someone's admission of a soft-spot for their own nan, and ram it back down their thoat!
Neither am I trying to influence others. I've thus far contributed only 1 post (36) to the actual debate taking place. I just thought it was a real shitty thing to say. It WAS disgusting.
This is supposed to be a discussion about Everton. Conducting personal attacks on another poster's (possibly deceased) nan ( who YOU twice referred to as Gran) has surely crossed the line of acceptability.
No regard for dignity at all.
I could care less who "wins," the football debate.
You insulted the guy's nan for Pete's sake..
Show a little respect & apologise. You were out of order.
Gavin Ramejkis
84 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:46:53
84 Posted 28/09/2011 at 18:46:53
Ian I'd be more inclined to say Moyes plays on a game of averages and his results are as a result of that he plays a game of overall trying not to concede a goal and nick one to win it. All in all that makes for a miserable viewing experience but in the long run of probability an average lifespan of matching wins and losses.
Increasing over recent seasons we've all seen lesser sides do a "Moyes" on Moyes and outsmart him parking the bus and snatching victory. Other managers have set their teams up to take on the parked bus and punish the old weak traits; over defended set pieces like corners where they know they'll get at least two bites of the cherry as a clearance comes right back to unmarked defenders or midfielders, lack of pace on breakaways meaning they can send more players further up the pitch to join in attacks - the more chances to put the ball in the net.
Increasing over recent seasons we've all seen lesser sides do a "Moyes" on Moyes and outsmart him parking the bus and snatching victory. Other managers have set their teams up to take on the parked bus and punish the old weak traits; over defended set pieces like corners where they know they'll get at least two bites of the cherry as a clearance comes right back to unmarked defenders or midfielders, lack of pace on breakaways meaning they can send more players further up the pitch to join in attacks - the more chances to put the ball in the net.
Kevin Hudson
85 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:13:27
85 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:13:27
Chris Leyland,
Apologies if I've stepped on your toes there - of course I recognise you can fight your own battles.
I just thought his snidey swipe at your nan was beyond the pale, mate. Sorry for dragging her into this.
Kev.
Apologies if I've stepped on your toes there - of course I recognise you can fight your own battles.
I just thought his snidey swipe at your nan was beyond the pale, mate. Sorry for dragging her into this.
Kev.
Ciarán McGlone
86 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:17:43
86 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:17:43
I take it back Kevin. Your didn't feign disgust. You were just being a knob. Nowhere did i mock anyones elderly relative. And you insist on going down that route, then you're a bigger cock than i thought you were.
Ciarán McGlone
87 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:23:15
87 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:23:15
Ian. I thought i'd clearly offered an opinion. But if you think my position is a riddle, then i can see why your having trouble trying to undertand it.
Colin Wainwright
88 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:12:28
88 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:12:28
Ah, I've played a couple Ian, but I'll bow to your greater knowledge.
Tell me though, in your professional opinion, how does getting splinters in your arse, sitting on the bench, help get a player match fit?
Tell me though, in your professional opinion, how does getting splinters in your arse, sitting on the bench, help get a player match fit?
Also, couldn't we have played an un-match fit player from the start, and taken him off when leading the game?
Also, whats the point of putting three strikers on the bench, when none are match fit?
Also, can you confirm that rather than have a pre-season, the new lads sat around eating fuckin meat pies and drinking guiness.
Like I say, I've only played a couple of games so forgive me if I'm talking shite.
Kevin Hudson
89 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:22:54
89 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:22:54
"They can expect to have their gran's cliches ridiculed." - Ciaran McGlone - post: 69.
Take a bow - you're ridiculing the saying of an elderly lady..In front of their relative.
And if all else fails, resort to calling people "knob's" and "even bigger cock's,"
Tough guy. Round of applause.
Take a bow - you're ridiculing the saying of an elderly lady..In front of their relative.
And if all else fails, resort to calling people "knob's" and "even bigger cock's,"
Tough guy. Round of applause.
Andy Crooks
90 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:28:08
90 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:28:08
To say that Cairan McGlone mocked Chris's dead nan is just utterly ludicrous. Let's stick to the football. Saturdays lime -up was ,in my opinion indefensible/ Some have tried to defend it and Cairan, with whom have often disagreed, is totally right in his response to it. What will it take for some to say enough is enough.
Nathan Ward
91 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:39:48
91 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:39:48
Now now - there's nothing like getting beat by the richest club in the world to divide the faithful!
One observation I'd add is that we did play with a striker. Cahill is to all intents and purposes a striker who used to be a midfielder.
I would much have preferred to start with Vellios or Saha but given our results at Eastlands in the past two seasons by playing those tactics I can see why we went with them.
One observation I'd add is that we did play with a striker. Cahill is to all intents and purposes a striker who used to be a midfielder.
I would much have preferred to start with Vellios or Saha but given our results at Eastlands in the past two seasons by playing those tactics I can see why we went with them.
Jamie Barlow
92 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:41:09
92 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:41:09
Can we put this talk of Chris's relatives to bed now. It shouldn't really be a topic of conversation and can't be something Chris wants to keep reading. Keep it to football and personal name calling please.
Ian Tunstead
93 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:48:03
93 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:48:03
Ciarán you had lost the argument and so by post 77 you resorted to taking the piss rather than having any more discussion about the football. I spoke of the Wigan game post 71 and asked you a question, but still no answer, only insults.
Ian Tunstead
94 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:55:18
94 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:55:18
Ian 81, you are right, we have lost individual games to lower teams so have Man Utd and Chelsea, what matters is were we finish at the end of the season, we finished above all of those lower side that we failed to beat. The same teams that used the same park the bus tactics on Moyes that he used on City, only it worked for them just like it has usually worked for us against City
Trevor Mackie
95 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:56:10
95 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:56:10
ian
Are you a priest?
Are you a priest?
Ian Tunstead
96 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:58:52
96 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:58:52
Gavin 83, i agree with you, but he has to play with the poor hand he is dealt. It would be interesting to see what he could do if he was given the same kind of money the top 6 sides like to spend.
Adam Luszniak
97 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:50:51
97 Posted 28/09/2011 at 19:50:51
Let's face it, if Moyes's tactics had payed off and we'd come away with a point, I'm not sure anyone would be that bothered about lack of recognised strikers on the pitch from the start of the game.
We went a goal down off a deflection and he brought on attack minded players. One of these attacking players even managed to cock up a pass which lead to the second goal. Tough luck i say.
We'd all rather have a proper striker on the pitch from the start, but let's face it, inexperienced players like Drenthe and Barkley (good as they both are) have shown the kind of mistakes in the last few games which have lead to goals conceded. Vellios and Straq need more time on the field and they are getting it, so sooner our later we should see them have more of an impact, but I don't blame Moyes for not starting with them.
Saha we all know is great on his day but spits his dummy out so I'm not surprised moyes is giving him the cold shoulder.
The way things are, City vs Everton away is going to be damage limitation. Considering the thrashings City have already meted out this season, I think we got off lightly. Yeah, we could have played with more attacking players from the start, but look what happened when Villas Boas went to Old Trafford and played the attacking game there.....
We went a goal down off a deflection and he brought on attack minded players. One of these attacking players even managed to cock up a pass which lead to the second goal. Tough luck i say.
We'd all rather have a proper striker on the pitch from the start, but let's face it, inexperienced players like Drenthe and Barkley (good as they both are) have shown the kind of mistakes in the last few games which have lead to goals conceded. Vellios and Straq need more time on the field and they are getting it, so sooner our later we should see them have more of an impact, but I don't blame Moyes for not starting with them.
Saha we all know is great on his day but spits his dummy out so I'm not surprised moyes is giving him the cold shoulder.
The way things are, City vs Everton away is going to be damage limitation. Considering the thrashings City have already meted out this season, I think we got off lightly. Yeah, we could have played with more attacking players from the start, but look what happened when Villas Boas went to Old Trafford and played the attacking game there.....
Ian Tunstead
98 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:02:08
98 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:02:08
I would like to be Trevor. Now do you have something to discuss about football or are you just going to be a piss taker like the other feller?
Gavin Ramejkis
99 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:11:51
99 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:11:51
Ian, Moyes worries me with money, just look at Bily. Unfortunately the days of cheap bargain buys are all but completely gone ad even average players cost far more than I expect Moyes to see unless he's at another club or the entire board go.
Ian Tunstead
100 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:07:48
100 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:07:48
Colin i cant give a proffessional opinion but Moyes can and a lot of the other sporting pundits can and the feeling tended to be that a Moyes made the right decision.
I will do my best to answer your questions though. The players on the bench who are not match fit will gain match fitness by making sub appearances by playing in reserve games which have less intensity, but playing in cup games against lower league opposition.
Yes we could start a player who is not match fit and bring them off but i think they would have more impact on the game coming on against tired legs.
The point of putting 3 unfit strikers on the bench is to bring them on for 10-30 mins and get them fit gradually and change games when needed, also the other point is because we have no one else to fill the bench.
I cant realy answer your final question but Drenthe does look to me like he's eat a few meat pies.
I will do my best to answer your questions though. The players on the bench who are not match fit will gain match fitness by making sub appearances by playing in reserve games which have less intensity, but playing in cup games against lower league opposition.
Yes we could start a player who is not match fit and bring them off but i think they would have more impact on the game coming on against tired legs.
The point of putting 3 unfit strikers on the bench is to bring them on for 10-30 mins and get them fit gradually and change games when needed, also the other point is because we have no one else to fill the bench.
I cant realy answer your final question but Drenthe does look to me like he's eat a few meat pies.
Ian Tunstead
101 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:32:27
101 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:32:27
Gavin even Feguson has spent big money and it hasn't worked out. Bily was actually recommended to Moyes by Hiddink. I dont know about you but if Hiddink advised me about a player i would listen. Maybe Moyes has learnt his lesson to do his own homework in future. But Fellaini cost a lot of money and i think he has done very well and is only going to get better. Hopefully with us...
Dave Lynch
102 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:21:32
102 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:21:32
"Shaun. It's not much of an effort to argue with some people on here, a lot of them can't think rationally."
Or words to that effect.
What you mean is that other posters don't share the same opinion as you, therefore you think you are above them. Narcisistic is a word that springs to mind.
Bottom line is this. Moyes has never won a game away from home against the self proclaimed big 4. Proof that parking the bus does not work and he hasn't learned that lesson yet.
Colin Wainwright
104 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:20:44
104 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:20:44
Ian.(99)
'Pundits' is a horrible word and I think Michael should ban it. Don't let the likes of Hansen, Lawrenson, Neville or, god forbid, Savage, ever influence your point of view. Cheers for answering my daft questions though.
I had always defended Davie Moyes up until the start of this season. I thought, he's performing miracles with no cash, it's the gobshite chairman that's to blame.
This season though, has opened my eyes. The negative team comments, coupled with the increasingly negative selections and formations (against fuckin QPR and Wigan... at HOME) have sickened me. Ally that with his vociferous defence of Kenwright (if it's not his fault Moysey, it must be yours), after being told to sell four players.
£65k a week has obviously blunted his ambition. Time to go.
'Pundits' is a horrible word and I think Michael should ban it. Don't let the likes of Hansen, Lawrenson, Neville or, god forbid, Savage, ever influence your point of view. Cheers for answering my daft questions though.
I had always defended Davie Moyes up until the start of this season. I thought, he's performing miracles with no cash, it's the gobshite chairman that's to blame.
This season though, has opened my eyes. The negative team comments, coupled with the increasingly negative selections and formations (against fuckin QPR and Wigan... at HOME) have sickened me. Ally that with his vociferous defence of Kenwright (if it's not his fault Moysey, it must be yours), after being told to sell four players.
£65k a week has obviously blunted his ambition. Time to go.
Colin Grierson
105 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:23:01
105 Posted 28/09/2011 at 20:23:01
Ian,
I understand that defenders are cheaper than forwards. However, we spent a club record fee on Screech and he is essentially a holding midfielder. I think Screech is a decent player but I would rather have seen a 20 goal a season man arrive.
Moyes is the darling of the media as they perceive him to be a miracle worker and we constantly hear the term 'punching above their weight'. The pundits will always side with Moyes' team selection ahead of criticism from fans of his tactics or lack of them.
As I've stated before, I can't stomach the brand of football that Moyes champions. If we as fans are happy to sanction the ruination of the 'School of Science' legacy then God help us.
I understand that defenders are cheaper than forwards. However, we spent a club record fee on Screech and he is essentially a holding midfielder. I think Screech is a decent player but I would rather have seen a 20 goal a season man arrive.
Moyes is the darling of the media as they perceive him to be a miracle worker and we constantly hear the term 'punching above their weight'. The pundits will always side with Moyes' team selection ahead of criticism from fans of his tactics or lack of them.
As I've stated before, I can't stomach the brand of football that Moyes champions. If we as fans are happy to sanction the ruination of the 'School of Science' legacy then God help us.
For me, setting up a team to play the Moyes way is like asking Rage against the Machine to play a country and western medley. The lads, as profssionals, would be able to produce the tunes but their loyal followers might find it tricky to form a mosh pit!
Lets stop bending over and proferring the KY jelly and demand what we as a club stand for.
NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM!
Ciarán McGlone
106 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:35:50
106 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:35:50
Ian. I seen your Wigan question. You fail to grasp my opinion that I don't think any game is relevant to any 'guesswork' about what the result would've been had we adopted a different approach in the city game. I guess that's why I didn't answer. It appears to be rather pointless.
David Hallwood
107 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:47:59
107 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:47:59
Shaun#58, the short answer did I like the team selection the short answer is no, but I take the view that Moyes didn't have the finances to bring in an up to speed forward in, if we had gone in for Bellamy or Crouch (and the phrase dodged a bullet comes to mind) anyone of them would've started.
But what you and 80% of the posters are alluding to is that Moyes had the option of picking from 3 fit forwards, but chose the shithouse option of using an attacking midfielder as an auxiliary forward, I don?t believe that is the case, and there appears to be a lot of people that do not know the difference between fit and MATCH fit. As a lone attacker you have to do a lot of chasing and harrying, and a player not match fit will very quickly begin to give up the ghost mentally and physically very quickly and become a liability.
Instead people are saying that Vellios should have started on the basis of a couple of cameos (although he looks like a player, thankfully no one was of the opinion that Stracqualursi should?ve started, this isn?t putting the two players down, and let?s hope that they will become good, even great players for us, but their time is still to come.
But what you and 80% of the posters are alluding to is that Moyes had the option of picking from 3 fit forwards, but chose the shithouse option of using an attacking midfielder as an auxiliary forward, I don?t believe that is the case, and there appears to be a lot of people that do not know the difference between fit and MATCH fit. As a lone attacker you have to do a lot of chasing and harrying, and a player not match fit will very quickly begin to give up the ghost mentally and physically very quickly and become a liability.
Instead people are saying that Vellios should have started on the basis of a couple of cameos (although he looks like a player, thankfully no one was of the opinion that Stracqualursi should?ve started, this isn?t putting the two players down, and let?s hope that they will become good, even great players for us, but their time is still to come.
Ian Tunstead
108 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:44:30
108 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:44:30
Dave about 14 other teams in the league have tried every tactic under the sun, but what ever you they do they will lose a lot more than they win. Tactics have little to do with it its about who has the best players on the pitch that counts for most
"What you mean is that other posters don't share the same opinion as you, therefore you think you are above them.
Narcisistic is a word that springs to mind."
Not really, it more to do with the fact that the other contributers who i have differing opinionswith like some of the examples above can not come back to me with an argument and resort to insults.
"What you mean is that other posters don't share the same opinion as you, therefore you think you are above them.
Narcisistic is a word that springs to mind."
Not really, it more to do with the fact that the other contributers who i have differing opinionswith like some of the examples above can not come back to me with an argument and resort to insults.
Ian Tunstead
109 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:51:37
109 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:51:37
Colin 103 at the time we bought Fellaini we had a 20 goal a season man, I'm quite sure Yakubu scored 20+ goals about the time we signed the big feller
I also think if you watched most of the other teams in the league outside the top 6 the football isnt much better the what Everton serve up. The ones that try and pass it mostly pas backwards and sideways not realy offering much goal threat or they end up like Blackpool.
I also think if you watched most of the other teams in the league outside the top 6 the football isnt much better the what Everton serve up. The ones that try and pass it mostly pas backwards and sideways not realy offering much goal threat or they end up like Blackpool.
Colin Wainwright
110 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:50:00
110 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:50:00
David(105).
I fucking know the difference between fit and match fit fer christs sake. Moyes has done this when we have had MATCH fit forwards.
It's the negative, 'we're fucked before we kick off' attitude, that's the difference.
And by the way, it was our manager that sold 3 match fit strikers in the transfer window and brought in one (apparently) not match fit loanee
I fucking know the difference between fit and match fit fer christs sake. Moyes has done this when we have had MATCH fit forwards.
It's the negative, 'we're fucked before we kick off' attitude, that's the difference.
And by the way, it was our manager that sold 3 match fit strikers in the transfer window and brought in one (apparently) not match fit loanee
Dominic Bobadilla
111 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:00:58
111 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:00:58
Moyes would play John Bailey up front and Van den Hauwe as holding midfielder.
Colin Wainwright
112 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:04:29
112 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:04:29
Could be a shout Dominic.
I remember JB scoring a wind assisted free kick from about 75 yards in 84.
I could be mistaken. I was only little.
I remember JB scoring a wind assisted free kick from about 75 yards in 84.
I could be mistaken. I was only little.
Shaun Sparke
113 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:01:42
113 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:01:42
Dave Lynch #101 I have read through your post 3 times now and I still can't work out whether you are having a go at me or agreeing with me. Narcissistic? Do me a favour, even the mirror complains when I look into it now days! I think you need to read through my posts again to gain a greater understanding of my point of view, you are confusing me with somebody else.
Ian Tunstead
114 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:00:07
114 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:00:07
No Ciarán, i'm not asking you to guess i was asking a question about if you thought we were attacking or defending when the strikers came on against Wigan.
If when we brought on the attacking options at 1-1 and went on to win the game 3-1 against Wigan are you saying we wernt going toe to toe with them and attacking when the strikers came on? We must have been attacking because we scored 2 goals and won the game. So why is it not logical to say we tried the same thing against Man City but they we able to score 2 goals instead of us because they are better than us?
If when we brought on the attacking options at 1-1 and went on to win the game 3-1 against Wigan are you saying we wernt going toe to toe with them and attacking when the strikers came on? We must have been attacking because we scored 2 goals and won the game. So why is it not logical to say we tried the same thing against Man City but they we able to score 2 goals instead of us because they are better than us?
Colin Grierson
115 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:58:28
115 Posted 28/09/2011 at 21:58:28
Ian,
There is no point giving insults, I agree.
Do you enjoy watching the football we play under Moyes?
All of the arguments as to what the score would or wouldn't have been had we played with a different formation or ethos are immaterial. None can be proven and we can't point to what happened when other teams adopted differing strategies as a guide to what the score would have been.
Can anybody honestly tell me that they have enjoyed watching us play recently?
I differ with your opinion, Ian, on the grounds of taste. I like to be entertained. I want to enjoy the game even when we lose.
There is no point giving insults, I agree.
Do you enjoy watching the football we play under Moyes?
All of the arguments as to what the score would or wouldn't have been had we played with a different formation or ethos are immaterial. None can be proven and we can't point to what happened when other teams adopted differing strategies as a guide to what the score would have been.
Can anybody honestly tell me that they have enjoyed watching us play recently?
I differ with your opinion, Ian, on the grounds of taste. I like to be entertained. I want to enjoy the game even when we lose.
Dave Lynch
116 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:17:00
116 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:17:00
Shaun.
That quote was taken off Ian's post.
So was not aimed at you at all.
See Ian's reply @106.
That quote was taken off Ian's post.
So was not aimed at you at all.
See Ian's reply @106.
Ian Tunstead
117 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:21:17
117 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:21:17
Haha Shaun dont worry mate the message was to me. I answered one of your posts and he's cut and paste it quoting me.
Colin Wainwright
118 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:11:29
118 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:11:29
Only difference Ian, was the fact that, against shitty, the team had been drilled to within an inch of their feckin lives, to defend, all game.
When asked to change the gameplan, with subs coming off the bench, we couldn't'.
Wigan are shite.
You can't really compare the two.
When asked to change the gameplan, with subs coming off the bench, we couldn't'.
Wigan are shite.
You can't really compare the two.
Ian Tunstead
119 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:24:23
119 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:24:23
Colin i like to balance things up. Would i like to watch us play some good stuff like we did at the start of last season and not get the results, or would i prefer us to win ugly and have a try fro 4th place like we did the year we finished 4th winning 1-0 nearly every game. Sp my view is i would rather win ugly than play well and lose.
In answer to your question, most of the time i do like watching us play and the way we play if i think it will get us the result we need. Obviously i would prefer to watch us playing like Man Utd but hat would take Man Utd money to pay for Man Utd standard players.
As i said on another post, you can complain about the way Everton play but there are at least 10 other teams in the league who play worse than Everton. The exciting teams with the good football will usually have the good footballers that cost the big money on the big wages.
In answer to your question, most of the time i do like watching us play and the way we play if i think it will get us the result we need. Obviously i would prefer to watch us playing like Man Utd but hat would take Man Utd money to pay for Man Utd standard players.
As i said on another post, you can complain about the way Everton play but there are at least 10 other teams in the league who play worse than Everton. The exciting teams with the good football will usually have the good footballers that cost the big money on the big wages.
Dave Lynch
120 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:23:10
120 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:23:10
Ian.
For a team that has the talent we have and we do have talented footballers, despite what i sometimes read on here.
We never give ourselves a chance, especially away from home.
That my friend is the way the team is set up to play
We have witnessed time and time again players being played out of position in an attempt to accommodate a one dimensional system that falls down the minute we concede and the nature of the system leaves us little options when this inveriably happens against the so called big 4.
Moyes is now a victim of his own past success, if that makes any sense.
In other words, he plays one way, teams know this and adapt accordingly.
He fails IMO to scrutinise oppositions weaknesses and therefore never exploits them. Instead he sets us up to play to what he percieves as our strengths, other teams have now learnt to adapt to our style of play therefore negating our strengths .
For a team that has the talent we have and we do have talented footballers, despite what i sometimes read on here.
We never give ourselves a chance, especially away from home.
That my friend is the way the team is set up to play
We have witnessed time and time again players being played out of position in an attempt to accommodate a one dimensional system that falls down the minute we concede and the nature of the system leaves us little options when this inveriably happens against the so called big 4.
Moyes is now a victim of his own past success, if that makes any sense.
In other words, he plays one way, teams know this and adapt accordingly.
He fails IMO to scrutinise oppositions weaknesses and therefore never exploits them. Instead he sets us up to play to what he percieves as our strengths, other teams have now learnt to adapt to our style of play therefore negating our strengths .
Colin Grierson
121 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:22:25
121 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:22:25
Ian,
I'm not interested in what the other teams outside of the top six do. I'm not suggesting we get any of their managers in to replace Moyes. The truth is I don't know who would replace Moyes. I don't care so long as they play entertaining football.
Everyone liked watching Blackpool and their top earners got 10k a week maximum. They almost avoided the drop with far more meagre resources than us and a positive, entertaining ethos. All of the clubs you talk about who have greater resources than Blackpool could learn a lot from Holloway.
I'm not interested in what the other teams outside of the top six do. I'm not suggesting we get any of their managers in to replace Moyes. The truth is I don't know who would replace Moyes. I don't care so long as they play entertaining football.
Everyone liked watching Blackpool and their top earners got 10k a week maximum. They almost avoided the drop with far more meagre resources than us and a positive, entertaining ethos. All of the clubs you talk about who have greater resources than Blackpool could learn a lot from Holloway.
Ian Tunstead
122 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:34:15
122 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:34:15
Colin 116 the game plan has been used lots of times, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't obviously Moyes thought it would be more effective,and it was untill Cahill got injured and Saha had to come on, it didnt help that the ref was a joke aswel and all our players were scared to make a challange. Nevilles booking was unbelievable.
In both the Wigan and Man City game it was clear by the set up that we were going to keep it tight for as long as possible then throw on the non match fit strikers against the tired legs of the oposing team. It worked against Wigan because as you say they are shite but it didnt work against Man City because on the day and most days they were/are better than us, better than us with and without our attacking players on the pitch
In both the Wigan and Man City game it was clear by the set up that we were going to keep it tight for as long as possible then throw on the non match fit strikers against the tired legs of the oposing team. It worked against Wigan because as you say they are shite but it didnt work against Man City because on the day and most days they were/are better than us, better than us with and without our attacking players on the pitch
Ian Tunstead
123 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:42:14
123 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:42:14
Colin 119 yes they could learn a lot, they could learn not to play like Holloways teams because they will be heading for the drop. It's brave but stupid to believe his side could go toe to toe with the other sides in the league. The 5-3 game against us was brilliant but if he could have won that game 1-0 and stayed in the prem i think he would have took it.
Gavin Ramejkis
124 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:48:57
124 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:48:57
Ian I think Moyes' stubborness basically cancelled out Hiddink's recommendation of Bily as he's never played him in his natural position.
To me thats Moyes' killer flaw, he doesn't give a rats arse where a players natural position is and will always stuff a square peg into a round hole to make up his beloved 4-5-1, Bily is never going to be a winger but he's been thrown there and made to look shite, Rodwell isnt a winger but he too has spent time there, Barkley isnt a winger but he too has spent time there only looking better and more comfortable when he's cut back inside to a more natural position to suit his skills, Beckford was thrown up front as a lone striker when he clearly never was and more than likely never will be a lone striker.
Going back to my worry about Moyes with money again, he cant be trusted spending big money as he's always on the lookout for utility players and multitaskers and in upper price ranges the players you'll buy are honed and suited to a role such as a winger or a striker.
To me thats Moyes' killer flaw, he doesn't give a rats arse where a players natural position is and will always stuff a square peg into a round hole to make up his beloved 4-5-1, Bily is never going to be a winger but he's been thrown there and made to look shite, Rodwell isnt a winger but he too has spent time there, Barkley isnt a winger but he too has spent time there only looking better and more comfortable when he's cut back inside to a more natural position to suit his skills, Beckford was thrown up front as a lone striker when he clearly never was and more than likely never will be a lone striker.
Going back to my worry about Moyes with money again, he cant be trusted spending big money as he's always on the lookout for utility players and multitaskers and in upper price ranges the players you'll buy are honed and suited to a role such as a winger or a striker.
Ian Tunstead
125 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:48:33
125 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:48:33
Dave we do have talent...when everyone is fit. We have a good defence and midfield but the stikers arnt up to speed yet. Again you are right, time and time again we have seen players played out of position but do you not think if Moyes had the money he would have the players so he didnt have to play people out of position? If he didnt have a small squad and the injuries would he have to play people out of position?
But the system doesnt always fall down the minute we concede, what about the Blackburn and Wigan games?
How can it be true that other teams know that he only plays one way and so they know how to adapt accordingly if he still finshes above them. Teams also know how Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal are going to play, but that doesnt matter because they have better players and more times than not will roll over everyone.
Where was this weakness in the Man Citys side, how could we have exploited them?
At the end of the day, before the Man City game if you asked fans from around the country to take charge of their team for the day on the day they played Man City if they had any sense they would look at recent history and see Moyes record against them and get him in. 1 loss in about 6 attempts is not the disaster people are making it out to be.
But the system doesnt always fall down the minute we concede, what about the Blackburn and Wigan games?
How can it be true that other teams know that he only plays one way and so they know how to adapt accordingly if he still finshes above them. Teams also know how Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal are going to play, but that doesnt matter because they have better players and more times than not will roll over everyone.
Where was this weakness in the Man Citys side, how could we have exploited them?
At the end of the day, before the Man City game if you asked fans from around the country to take charge of their team for the day on the day they played Man City if they had any sense they would look at recent history and see Moyes record against them and get him in. 1 loss in about 6 attempts is not the disaster people are making it out to be.
Colin Grierson
126 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:40:33
126 Posted 28/09/2011 at 22:40:33
Ian, of course I would like to have the pick of the rich boys squads. Who wouldn't. I reckon we have a decent starting eleven and we have for quite a while (periods of injury aside). We just deploy them in the wrong way. We have to beg to differ Ian as I don't see a season of boredom as success. We have the odd moment of stylish football, but its mainly boring. Shit with sugar on!
Dave #118 I think that we analyse the threat of the opposition and set out to nullify it rather than posing a threat of our own, which is criminal.
Dave #118 I think that we analyse the threat of the opposition and set out to nullify it rather than posing a threat of our own, which is criminal.
Ian Tunstead
127 Posted 28/09/2011 at 23:02:00
127 Posted 28/09/2011 at 23:02:00
Gavin, Moyes must see Bily in training and musnt think he's up for a central position or maybe he just rates Cahill and Osman a head of him.
Rodwell and Barkley were played on the wings because we had no wingers, some one had to provide the width, Rodwell has pace and Barkley has skill so they were the most appropriate for the role. Anyway Rodwell hasnt exactly shown he's any better in central midfield and Barkley was man of the match against QPR on the left but did bugger all in the centre in the cup, so maybe Moyes knows best.
Ask your self why he is always looking at utility players... Because he knows he can only afford a very small injury prone squad so he has to bring in players who can play different positions. If he had the money of the top 6 i dont believe his strategy would be the same. Anyway no one complains when Ferguson plays players out of position every week Smalling and Jones at right back, Rooney Left wing, Berbatov and Carrick CB. Top players should be able to play anywhere except in goal.
Rodwell and Barkley were played on the wings because we had no wingers, some one had to provide the width, Rodwell has pace and Barkley has skill so they were the most appropriate for the role. Anyway Rodwell hasnt exactly shown he's any better in central midfield and Barkley was man of the match against QPR on the left but did bugger all in the centre in the cup, so maybe Moyes knows best.
Ask your self why he is always looking at utility players... Because he knows he can only afford a very small injury prone squad so he has to bring in players who can play different positions. If he had the money of the top 6 i dont believe his strategy would be the same. Anyway no one complains when Ferguson plays players out of position every week Smalling and Jones at right back, Rooney Left wing, Berbatov and Carrick CB. Top players should be able to play anywhere except in goal.
Ciarán McGlone
128 Posted 28/09/2011 at 23:28:20
128 Posted 28/09/2011 at 23:28:20
And now you're defending playing players out of position because there was no other option.
Yes, Neville played in midfield because we had no actual midfielders at our disposal. Oh wait, that can't be right.
Perhaps you should simply abbreviate your defence of Moyes to "Moyes knows best so don't question him."
Yes, Neville played in midfield because we had no actual midfielders at our disposal. Oh wait, that can't be right.
Perhaps you should simply abbreviate your defence of Moyes to "Moyes knows best so don't question him."
Ian Tunstead
129 Posted 29/09/2011 at 00:03:26
129 Posted 29/09/2011 at 00:03:26
I dont remeber mentionaing Neville but as you brought him up, i remember SAF playing Neville in CM against Veira in his pomp and nulifying him from the game, i also remember him playing CM in a fantastic Derby victory doing a similar job on Stevie G. He also did a decent job on Silva untill the strikers came out to play, but you know best, if we had strikers on from the begining we could have give them a game.
Dave Lynch
130 Posted 29/09/2011 at 00:00:41
130 Posted 29/09/2011 at 00:00:41
Ian.
A well reasoned response, but.
Moyes has had the best part of 12 years to build this squad and we still fall short in the same areas as when he took charge.
He has had money to spend, granted not the millions of other clubs but money nonetheless.
Colin That was what i was trying to allude to, he analyses their attacking strength and attempts to nullify it, therefore the only worry other teams have is how to break down a stubborn defence, instead of letting them worry about our attacking options of which we have virtually none.
Your'e right. It is criminal.
A well reasoned response, but.
Moyes has had the best part of 12 years to build this squad and we still fall short in the same areas as when he took charge.
He has had money to spend, granted not the millions of other clubs but money nonetheless.
Colin That was what i was trying to allude to, he analyses their attacking strength and attempts to nullify it, therefore the only worry other teams have is how to break down a stubborn defence, instead of letting them worry about our attacking options of which we have virtually none.
Your'e right. It is criminal.
Ian Tunstead
131 Posted 29/09/2011 at 00:17:47
131 Posted 29/09/2011 at 00:17:47
Dave we will always fall short because the gap between us and the CL places will continue to grow which will allow them to buy the best players and pick of our best players on the cheap while they are at it. Lescott Piennar Rooney and now Arteta, who will be next Fellaini, Jaggs, Baines, Rodwell, or Barkley?
This is the problem Moyes will always face the moment he assembles a good side the top teams just offer our best players more money. We will always be a stepping stone to the top 4. While the Premiere League, FIFA and UEFA are in charge
This is the problem Moyes will always face the moment he assembles a good side the top teams just offer our best players more money. We will always be a stepping stone to the top 4. While the Premiere League, FIFA and UEFA are in charge
Ciarán McGlone
132 Posted 29/09/2011 at 09:36:39
132 Posted 29/09/2011 at 09:36:39
You defended playing players out of position. Neville is a single example of that actually happening last week. I would've though it was obvious why i brought him up. So, in light of your post above, do you think that Neville should play in midfield on the basis of the two games you've cited?
Eugene Ruane
133 Posted 29/09/2011 at 09:25:04
133 Posted 29/09/2011 at 09:25:04
Possibly the greatest/funniest/most bizarre paragraph I have ever read on TW.
Ian Tunstead (70) says "I have been commenting on this site for years and I can count on one hand the amount of times anyone has been able to blow any of my arguments out of the water and make me think twice about my opinion. Off the top of my head I can only think of Dave Wilson who has embarrassed me in an argument".
(like admitting to being outwitted by a cup-o-soup)
Ian Tunstead (70) says "I have been commenting on this site for years and I can count on one hand the amount of times anyone has been able to blow any of my arguments out of the water and make me think twice about my opinion. Off the top of my head I can only think of Dave Wilson who has embarrassed me in an argument".
(like admitting to being outwitted by a cup-o-soup)
Ian Tunstead
134 Posted 29/09/2011 at 10:20:11
134 Posted 29/09/2011 at 10:20:11
Ciarán, those are just 2 examples off the top of my head when Neville has done a very good job in midfield, i'm sure there are many more. But what is Nevilles position? I thought we bought him as a left back as that is were he played most of his games for England and Man Utd. The truth is he was played at left back because his brother was a better RB and Man Utd and England had better options in midfield but he can play in all 3 positions. Are you saying SAF didnt know what he was doing playing him in CM? maybe he should come to you for advice and he might have had more success in Europe over the years.
So in answer to your aquestion, Neville wasn't played out of positions as that is one of 3 or 4 positions he can play and so yes i do think it was a good move to play him CM against Man City as he did a very good job untill he was booked for nothing and had to tame his game.
Eugene its not about being out witted and scoring points off each other, it's about having a football discussion, that is what i learnt very early on when as i say i was embarrased by Dave, but you are still here taking the piss and trying to score points, why not add something to the argument with your own opinion rather than being a smart arse or you might be embarresed yourself in the near future.
So in answer to your aquestion, Neville wasn't played out of positions as that is one of 3 or 4 positions he can play and so yes i do think it was a good move to play him CM against Man City as he did a very good job untill he was booked for nothing and had to tame his game.
Eugene its not about being out witted and scoring points off each other, it's about having a football discussion, that is what i learnt very early on when as i say i was embarrased by Dave, but you are still here taking the piss and trying to score points, why not add something to the argument with your own opinion rather than being a smart arse or you might be embarresed yourself in the near future.
Eugene Ruane
135 Posted 29/09/2011 at 10:34:34
135 Posted 29/09/2011 at 10:34:34
Ian (132), you smear yourself in Jam, then get pissed off when bees are attracted.
You say..
"Why not add something to the argument with your own opinion rather than being a smart arse or you might be embarresed yourself in the near future".
Three things.
1) If Dave Wilson makes sense to you, believe me you DON'T want to hear my opinion.
2) 'Smart arse' - often used on TW as a form of attack by..a dumb arse.
3) That's not how you spell embarrassed (embarrassed? I very much doubt it)
You say..
"Why not add something to the argument with your own opinion rather than being a smart arse or you might be embarresed yourself in the near future".
Three things.
1) If Dave Wilson makes sense to you, believe me you DON'T want to hear my opinion.
2) 'Smart arse' - often used on TW as a form of attack by..a dumb arse.
3) That's not how you spell embarrassed (embarrassed? I very much doubt it)
Stephen Kenny
136 Posted 29/09/2011 at 10:39:29
136 Posted 29/09/2011 at 10:39:29
Bit harsh on Dave I thought TBH.
Ciarán McGlone
137 Posted 29/09/2011 at 11:14:59
137 Posted 29/09/2011 at 11:14:59
Ian,
Whether Alex Ferguson played him in a handful of games is irrelevant.
I accept that you may think he's capable of playing midfield on the basis of a handful of 'reasonable appearances' ...What i'm more interested in is why you avoid the countless times he's palyed in midfield and been utterly useless..
Whether Alex Ferguson played him in a handful of games is irrelevant.
I accept that you may think he's capable of playing midfield on the basis of a handful of 'reasonable appearances' ...What i'm more interested in is why you avoid the countless times he's palyed in midfield and been utterly useless..
Gavin Ramejkis
138 Posted 29/09/2011 at 13:08:38
138 Posted 29/09/2011 at 13:08:38
Ian the excuse of Moyes not having money is only right in the last few years, he had money when he bought Bily and basically wasted it.
Peter Warren
139 Posted 29/09/2011 at 13:15:15
139 Posted 29/09/2011 at 13:15:15
Moyes is not a bad manager. But bloody hell, he is defensive. People must notice that we often seem to play our best football when we have nothing to lose.
I remember watching the derby at Anfield, we got absolutely battered first half, it was embarrassing. We then go 2-1 up and should keep going for the kill. Instead, we then sat back and they equalised. Good result by Moyes, well done lads, when they were there for the taking and had a bad team.
That's the problem, the mindset of Moyes, it inflicts on the players and they are conservative, cautious, defensive.
Other managers, Mowbray, Redknapp never play this type of football. Yes, they get humiliated sometimes ? ie. 5-1 drubbing recently against Man City ? but do people forget our drubbings???
My view, is that I wish we would just have a go and see where we get to ? I would love to see how good we really are and throw off the shackles. The defence, is we don't have the players for this, but Moyes has shown even when we do have players, he likes one up front and floods midfield with workaholics as opposed to flair creative players.
I am bored with Moyes. I disagree he is some kind of miracle worker. Perhaps we will become worse but I would take that gamble because sadly, as I like a lot about Moyes, he ain't going to take us forward. I hate the way fellow supporters just accept this and don't even dare for change.
There are two points...
I remember watching the derby at Anfield, we got absolutely battered first half, it was embarrassing. We then go 2-1 up and should keep going for the kill. Instead, we then sat back and they equalised. Good result by Moyes, well done lads, when they were there for the taking and had a bad team.
That's the problem, the mindset of Moyes, it inflicts on the players and they are conservative, cautious, defensive.
Other managers, Mowbray, Redknapp never play this type of football. Yes, they get humiliated sometimes ? ie. 5-1 drubbing recently against Man City ? but do people forget our drubbings???
My view, is that I wish we would just have a go and see where we get to ? I would love to see how good we really are and throw off the shackles. The defence, is we don't have the players for this, but Moyes has shown even when we do have players, he likes one up front and floods midfield with workaholics as opposed to flair creative players.
I am bored with Moyes. I disagree he is some kind of miracle worker. Perhaps we will become worse but I would take that gamble because sadly, as I like a lot about Moyes, he ain't going to take us forward. I hate the way fellow supporters just accept this and don't even dare for change.
There are two points...
Ciarán McGlone
140 Posted 29/09/2011 at 13:58:13
140 Posted 29/09/2011 at 13:58:13
Ian,
I have one more question.
Considering you've admitted that we could've won if we have put out a more offensive line-up...
What formation and team do you think would have been more likely to get us that result last Saturday?
I have one more question.
Considering you've admitted that we could've won if we have put out a more offensive line-up...
What formation and team do you think would have been more likely to get us that result last Saturday?
Ian Tunstead
141 Posted 29/09/2011 at 14:20:56
141 Posted 29/09/2011 at 14:20:56
Eugen incase you havnt noticed i am trying to answer a lot of questions put to me in a short space of time so i am typing very fast and havnt got time for checking my grammer when i am fitting my own work in between, as long as you know what i meant, that is what is important. But you can always tell someone grasping at straws that has lost an argument when they start bringing spelling and grammer into the debate. Lets just stick with the footballing issues please.
Ian Tunstead
142 Posted 29/09/2011 at 14:26:13
142 Posted 29/09/2011 at 14:26:13
Ciarán, in all honesty, I think tactics and fomations have very little to do go with it; in my opinion it is about who has the best 11 players on the pitch. 9 times out of 10 the team with the 11 best players will win, unless we are talking about a Moyes team because somehow he has got a very good record against City.
The only thing I would say is play your best players in their best positions but try to bring a balance to the side as well. I admit the the side was not balanced on the attacking side but his attacking options were not the best options. I don't think it matters what side we put out, I think we were always likely to get beat given the quality of their side compared to ours.
The only thing I would say is play your best players in their best positions but try to bring a balance to the side as well. I admit the the side was not balanced on the attacking side but his attacking options were not the best options. I don't think it matters what side we put out, I think we were always likely to get beat given the quality of their side compared to ours.
Ian Tunstead
143 Posted 29/09/2011 at 15:24:26
143 Posted 29/09/2011 at 15:24:26
By the way sorry for the terrible grammer Eugene and Ciarán i was pressed for time earlier. I also missed one of your questions Ciarán.
"and I accept that you may think he's capable of playing midfield on the basis of a handful of 'reasonable appearances' ... What I'm more interested in is why you avoid the countless times he's palyed in midfield and been utterly useless."
I agree, Neville is next to useless in a 4-4-2 in CM against the lesser sides when he is expected to contribute with attack, but I think his role as a defensive midfielder in a 5-man midfield against the better sides is worthwhile.
"and I accept that you may think he's capable of playing midfield on the basis of a handful of 'reasonable appearances' ... What I'm more interested in is why you avoid the countless times he's palyed in midfield and been utterly useless."
I agree, Neville is next to useless in a 4-4-2 in CM against the lesser sides when he is expected to contribute with attack, but I think his role as a defensive midfielder in a 5-man midfield against the better sides is worthwhile.
Eugene Ruane
144 Posted 29/09/2011 at 15:26:26
144 Posted 29/09/2011 at 15:26:26
Ian (139) You reckon..
"But you can always tell someone grasping at straws that has lost an argument when they start bringing spelling and grammer into the debate".
Er...What argument is this?
I don't remember any argument.
I merely pointed out that I thought a paragraph of your post funny/odd and explained why (ie: that your arguments were were 'blown out of the water' by Dave 'the charge of the light on facts brigade' Wilson)
Fact: I let most grammar and spelling mistakes go AND get loads (well...some) wrong myself.
In fact I ONLY raise it when someone acts like mister smarty-pants (yes you did!) then in the NEXT sentence, makes THEMselves look a twat with a daft spelling mistake (nb: and we're ALL in work etc).
Consequently, in this instance, perfectly valid imo to point this out.
"But you can always tell someone grasping at straws that has lost an argument when they start bringing spelling and grammer into the debate".
Er...What argument is this?
I don't remember any argument.
I merely pointed out that I thought a paragraph of your post funny/odd and explained why (ie: that your arguments were were 'blown out of the water' by Dave 'the charge of the light on facts brigade' Wilson)
Fact: I let most grammar and spelling mistakes go AND get loads (well...some) wrong myself.
In fact I ONLY raise it when someone acts like mister smarty-pants (yes you did!) then in the NEXT sentence, makes THEMselves look a twat with a daft spelling mistake (nb: and we're ALL in work etc).
Consequently, in this instance, perfectly valid imo to point this out.
Ian Tunstead
145 Posted 29/09/2011 at 16:02:05
145 Posted 29/09/2011 at 16:02:05
Exactly Eugene you don't even have an argument but you still stuck your nose in to take a cheap shot. This is a football site to discuss football or Everton matters, I have only tried to have an honest and realistic discussion with people and I am not too stubborn to admit when I have been wrong like I admitted with the Dave Wilson altercation.
To me there is no shame in being wrong, we are not experts, but it is shameful when people are too stubborn to admit they are wrong and let it take over their ability to think rationally, even when you have flipped their argument on its head.
I want people on here to educate me about football and give me an argument that will make me think twice, but for years I am hearing the same lame narrow minded arguments and when I give them the other side of the story most can not give me an answer or prove me wrong, they usually avoid the questions and hurl insults.
I have openly given everyone the ammunition to the weakness of my own argument because I don?t give toss, I want to know myself how Moyes finishes above sides that have spent more than him when every other example shows that money talks.
I want someone to explain to me how he does it, because clearly according to most on here his tactics are awful and his substitutions are worse, what is he doing right that the other managers who spend more arnt?
To me there is no shame in being wrong, we are not experts, but it is shameful when people are too stubborn to admit they are wrong and let it take over their ability to think rationally, even when you have flipped their argument on its head.
I want people on here to educate me about football and give me an argument that will make me think twice, but for years I am hearing the same lame narrow minded arguments and when I give them the other side of the story most can not give me an answer or prove me wrong, they usually avoid the questions and hurl insults.
I have openly given everyone the ammunition to the weakness of my own argument because I don?t give toss, I want to know myself how Moyes finishes above sides that have spent more than him when every other example shows that money talks.
I want someone to explain to me how he does it, because clearly according to most on here his tactics are awful and his substitutions are worse, what is he doing right that the other managers who spend more arnt?
GJ Butler
147 Posted 29/09/2011 at 16:29:09
147 Posted 29/09/2011 at 16:29:09
Ian, unfortunately this site is overwhelmed with those whose glass is half empty, but it's not the sites fault, or even the contributors, it's just a basic fact that those who are unhappy shout louder and longer.
For example, when people are displeased, they tend to voice their displeasure (you'll see this at any retail store checkout point or restaurant 7 days a week), while those who are pleased (the other 90% of the population who pass through the store) for some reason don't feel the need to tell the staff how happy with the service they were. If you get my drift!
It is why if you read toffeeweb you will be given the impression 90% of Everton fans are disgruntled with Kenwright and want change, yet when his picture is put on a screen in Goodison 90% of the crowd applaud. Those 90% have no reason to be on toffeeweb, because they see little to complain about.
And then theres Eugene.
For example, when people are displeased, they tend to voice their displeasure (you'll see this at any retail store checkout point or restaurant 7 days a week), while those who are pleased (the other 90% of the population who pass through the store) for some reason don't feel the need to tell the staff how happy with the service they were. If you get my drift!
It is why if you read toffeeweb you will be given the impression 90% of Everton fans are disgruntled with Kenwright and want change, yet when his picture is put on a screen in Goodison 90% of the crowd applaud. Those 90% have no reason to be on toffeeweb, because they see little to complain about.
And then theres Eugene.
Ciarán McGlone
148 Posted 29/09/2011 at 16:42:16
148 Posted 29/09/2011 at 16:42:16
Ian,
Setting aside the rather ridiculous assertion 'that tactics and formation' have nothing to do with what happens on the pitch (even on the most obvious basis that tactics includes picking your best eleven in the right positions)..
Setting that aside for one moment (although I reserve the right to revisit it on the basis that it's quite frankly an astounding comment)....you conceded above that we could've (i.e possibly) won saturdays match if we'd have adopted a different approach..
Now what i'm asking you is what team and formation do YOU think would've been most likely to achieve a positive result last Saturday (again setting aside the nonsense about tactics and formation)...
If you don't want to answer the question, then simply say so.
Setting aside the rather ridiculous assertion 'that tactics and formation' have nothing to do with what happens on the pitch (even on the most obvious basis that tactics includes picking your best eleven in the right positions)..
Setting that aside for one moment (although I reserve the right to revisit it on the basis that it's quite frankly an astounding comment)....you conceded above that we could've (i.e possibly) won saturdays match if we'd have adopted a different approach..
Now what i'm asking you is what team and formation do YOU think would've been most likely to achieve a positive result last Saturday (again setting aside the nonsense about tactics and formation)...
If you don't want to answer the question, then simply say so.
Julian Wait
149 Posted 29/09/2011 at 16:40:58
149 Posted 29/09/2011 at 16:40:58
@Nick 57 - Perhaps we could TW Editors for a Reality Forum where we can match antagonists and protagonists in 1 v 1 matches.
Perhaps it would be like this: http://www.theonion.com/video/brutal-spousefighting-ring-discovered-in-miami-bas,26180/
All is fair in love and war :-)
COYB
Perhaps it would be like this: http://www.theonion.com/video/brutal-spousefighting-ring-discovered-in-miami-bas,26180/
All is fair in love and war :-)
COYB
Ernie Baywood
150 Posted 29/09/2011 at 17:06:07
150 Posted 29/09/2011 at 17:06:07
Can't blame Moyes for his tactics at City. It was a long shot, and completely obvious, but it wasn't a million miles away from working. If we'd just held out another 10 minutes I think we would have given them a game... for all their possession they weren't creating much and were starting to leave gaps, just as we were starting to look capable of having a bit of a go.
The problem is, that those tactics aren't so far removed from what he does most weeks. 4-5-1 (Cahill is a forward when he's picked there so none of this 4-6-0 bollocks please) gainst teams like QPR and Wigan it's madness not to play 2 up top - particularly if you're playing 2 defensive midfielders.
One last point. 4-5-1 isn't always a defensive formation. Only a couple of years ago we played it pretty offensively with all attacking midfielders and the most attacking full back in the league. It can be a good formation if you have the personnel to play it - but we don't, we have 2 or sometimes 3 defensive midfielders so it shouldn't be an option.
The problem is, that those tactics aren't so far removed from what he does most weeks. 4-5-1 (Cahill is a forward when he's picked there so none of this 4-6-0 bollocks please) gainst teams like QPR and Wigan it's madness not to play 2 up top - particularly if you're playing 2 defensive midfielders.
One last point. 4-5-1 isn't always a defensive formation. Only a couple of years ago we played it pretty offensively with all attacking midfielders and the most attacking full back in the league. It can be a good formation if you have the personnel to play it - but we don't, we have 2 or sometimes 3 defensive midfielders so it shouldn't be an option.
Michael Kenrick
151 Posted 29/09/2011 at 17:14:48
151 Posted 29/09/2011 at 17:14:48
Ian:
I want people on here to educate me about football and give me an argument that will make me think twice...
I don't think that's a genuine statement, Ian, because you already have a very strongly established mindset, like the vast majority of contributors (me included!) and your main purpose is to try to convince others to think like you.
Sadly:
"I don't think it matters what side we put out, I think we were always likely to get beat given the quality of their side compared to ours." ? that is straight out of CM and underlines a massive gulf in thinking in terms of what football is about for many of us, why 11 players venture on to the pitch each week in the Royal Blue shirt of Everton Football Club, and what propelled them in previous encounters to consistently upset that particular applecart.
Explain to me please if I should understand from you that the same logic applies to the superior quality Liverpool side Everton will face on Saturday? And if not, why not?
I want people on here to educate me about football and give me an argument that will make me think twice...
I don't think that's a genuine statement, Ian, because you already have a very strongly established mindset, like the vast majority of contributors (me included!) and your main purpose is to try to convince others to think like you.
Sadly:
"I don't think it matters what side we put out, I think we were always likely to get beat given the quality of their side compared to ours." ? that is straight out of CM and underlines a massive gulf in thinking in terms of what football is about for many of us, why 11 players venture on to the pitch each week in the Royal Blue shirt of Everton Football Club, and what propelled them in previous encounters to consistently upset that particular applecart.
Explain to me please if I should understand from you that the same logic applies to the superior quality Liverpool side Everton will face on Saturday? And if not, why not?
Phil Bellis
152 Posted 29/09/2011 at 17:40:11
152 Posted 29/09/2011 at 17:40:11
Michael,
You're flogging a dead horse
In an earlier thread, I was told competitive football was all about corporate boxes
You're flogging a dead horse
In an earlier thread, I was told competitive football was all about corporate boxes
Ian Tunstead
153 Posted 29/09/2011 at 17:49:31
153 Posted 29/09/2011 at 17:49:31
Ciarán you have misconstrued my argument, which is understandable because my grammar was terrible.
I never said 'that tactics and formation' have nothing to do with what happens on the pitch? ?I said I think tactics and formations have very little to do with it;? and that ?it is more about who has the best 11 players on the pitch.? So there is a slight difference there.
I do not really want to answer your question as I think it is irrelevant but as you insist I will pick the team I would have played against Man City, but that does not mean it would be the same team I would have picked against Wigan or any other side.
Howard
Hibbert Jagielka Distin Baines
Coleman Fellaini Neville Drenthe
Osman
Cahill
Had everyone been match fit I would have replaced Saha with Osman and moved Cahill into midfield.
I never said 'that tactics and formation' have nothing to do with what happens on the pitch? ?I said I think tactics and formations have very little to do with it;? and that ?it is more about who has the best 11 players on the pitch.? So there is a slight difference there.
I do not really want to answer your question as I think it is irrelevant but as you insist I will pick the team I would have played against Man City, but that does not mean it would be the same team I would have picked against Wigan or any other side.
Howard
Hibbert Jagielka Distin Baines
Coleman Fellaini Neville Drenthe
Osman
Cahill
Had everyone been match fit I would have replaced Saha with Osman and moved Cahill into midfield.
Chris Rudd
154 Posted 29/09/2011 at 17:56:38
154 Posted 29/09/2011 at 17:56:38
At the time of writing there are almost 150 posts on this thread of which 35, at the last count, are 'contributions' from Ian Tunstead. God knows how many words that adds up to, but none of them have convinced me that watching the Blues on Saturday will be any more pleasurable than it was last week or any other week this season and for the most part, the last couple of years.
There comes a point when if all it's about is the points and not how you go about gaining them, you might as well watch it on teletext. I realise this view might put me in the sentimental old fool envelope but what the hell.
A lot of people on here, myself included simply don't believe that David Moyes is making the most of what he's got in his squad. Don't believe that his pre-match negativity fills those players with any kind of confidence and don't believe that there isn't a better way.
And that's it really. If you're happy to watch soulless football as long as we finish in the top 6/8/10 / pick a number, then fair enough.
Me, I'd settle for having a go - whether it's City or Brentford in the other half - because let's face it, we play pretty much the same way whatever the opposition. Okay, we might get the odd spanking but it's not as if that's never happened under our present leader. We've got no money but I didn't realise we'd had our nuts removed.
If you're in the other camp, along with Ian etc well okay. I'll still be at Goodison on Saturday hoping against hope for a change of attitude but I can't see it.
As for the interminable arguments on here... perhaps if everyone sneaks away quietly, Ian will start replying to his own messages until he manages to change his own vast mind...but then again... 36, 37, 38...
There comes a point when if all it's about is the points and not how you go about gaining them, you might as well watch it on teletext. I realise this view might put me in the sentimental old fool envelope but what the hell.
A lot of people on here, myself included simply don't believe that David Moyes is making the most of what he's got in his squad. Don't believe that his pre-match negativity fills those players with any kind of confidence and don't believe that there isn't a better way.
And that's it really. If you're happy to watch soulless football as long as we finish in the top 6/8/10 / pick a number, then fair enough.
Me, I'd settle for having a go - whether it's City or Brentford in the other half - because let's face it, we play pretty much the same way whatever the opposition. Okay, we might get the odd spanking but it's not as if that's never happened under our present leader. We've got no money but I didn't realise we'd had our nuts removed.
If you're in the other camp, along with Ian etc well okay. I'll still be at Goodison on Saturday hoping against hope for a change of attitude but I can't see it.
As for the interminable arguments on here... perhaps if everyone sneaks away quietly, Ian will start replying to his own messages until he manages to change his own vast mind...but then again... 36, 37, 38...
Trevor Mackie
155 Posted 29/09/2011 at 18:27:34
155 Posted 29/09/2011 at 18:27:34
Chris
It's why I stopped responding.
"oxygen of publicity" used to be the phrase.
It's why I stopped responding.
"oxygen of publicity" used to be the phrase.
Ian Tunstead
156 Posted 29/09/2011 at 18:18:50
156 Posted 29/09/2011 at 18:18:50
Michael, excellent move! Someone has finally used my contradictions against me after over 5 years of coming on this site and on the same thread I gave everyone the ammunition to blow my whole argument out of the water. Well done!
As I have clearly said in posts 143 and post 70 when I gave the game away, I can not answer those questions, you tell me, I would like to know myself.
Still no answer to my question at the end of post 143 either.
As I have clearly said in posts 143 and post 70 when I gave the game away, I can not answer those questions, you tell me, I would like to know myself.
Still no answer to my question at the end of post 143 either.
Ernie Baywood
157 Posted 29/09/2011 at 18:33:26
157 Posted 29/09/2011 at 18:33:26
Chris Rudd, surely there are times when you play and times when you 'dig in'? If we go 1-0 up with a minute left, do we still have to attack?
Sometimes the ends do justify the means. The problem with that is you don't know the ends until, well, the end.
Sometimes the ends do justify the means. The problem with that is you don't know the ends until, well, the end.
Ian Tunstead
158 Posted 29/09/2011 at 18:34:20
158 Posted 29/09/2011 at 18:34:20
Sorry for boring you Chris, i just didnt want to be rude and so always try to answer every question put to me, i feel a hypicrit other wise because i cant stand it when people avoid my questions and hurl abuse instead.
Trevor did you stop responding or did you just have no answer to my argument. You dont have to rspond because i know you cant answer.
This will be my last post on this thread as it has clearly gone on too long. I would just like to say, i am not s staunch Moyes fan because i am obsessed with him, it is because i fear the worst for Everton should he leave, he will move on to bigger and better things i have no doubt, Everton on the other hand... I dread to think.
Trevor did you stop responding or did you just have no answer to my argument. You dont have to rspond because i know you cant answer.
This will be my last post on this thread as it has clearly gone on too long. I would just like to say, i am not s staunch Moyes fan because i am obsessed with him, it is because i fear the worst for Everton should he leave, he will move on to bigger and better things i have no doubt, Everton on the other hand... I dread to think.
Phil Bellis
159 Posted 29/09/2011 at 18:50:48
159 Posted 29/09/2011 at 18:50:48
Thank Christ, Ian
reading your posts has been the literary equivalent of an out-of-body experience
reading your posts has been the literary equivalent of an out-of-body experience
Ciarán McGlone
160 Posted 29/09/2011 at 20:40:12
160 Posted 29/09/2011 at 20:40:12
Good grief.
Colin Wainwright
161 Posted 29/09/2011 at 20:44:26
161 Posted 29/09/2011 at 20:44:26
Christ on a bike Ian!
You're like a feckin machine lad. Got to congratulate you on your stamina mate.
You're like a feckin machine lad. Got to congratulate you on your stamina mate.
Eugene Ruane
162 Posted 29/09/2011 at 20:53:42
162 Posted 29/09/2011 at 20:53:42
Awaits - "Christ was NEVER on a bike and to suggest he was is just crazy. Ok the point saying he could do miracles and magic himself up a bike blows my argument out of the water.....
Colin Wainwright
163 Posted 29/09/2011 at 21:06:47
163 Posted 29/09/2011 at 21:06:47
Eugene.
He cycled across the sea of gallilee. He gave John the Baptist a seater
He cycled across the sea of gallilee. He gave John the Baptist a seater
Phil Bellis
164 Posted 29/09/2011 at 21:24:25
164 Posted 29/09/2011 at 21:24:25
Colin,
Wasn't that Uncle Cyril?
Wasn't that Uncle Cyril?
Trevor Mackie
165 Posted 29/09/2011 at 23:15:10
165 Posted 29/09/2011 at 23:15:10
Has Tunstead really gone?
Can we make sure?
Anyone got a wooden stake and a mallet?
Can we make sure?
Anyone got a wooden stake and a mallet?
Roman Sidey
166 Posted 30/09/2011 at 10:52:31
166 Posted 30/09/2011 at 10:52:31
The fucking simple fact is that the strikers are not "match fit" because Moyes doesn't play them.
Jon Cox
167 Posted 30/09/2011 at 18:48:57
167 Posted 30/09/2011 at 18:48:57
Eugene, dont forget Peter (fishers of men fame) He said, I dont give a fuck who you are you're not walking on water while i'm fishing !! ;-)
Eugene Ruane
168 Posted 30/09/2011 at 19:59:29
168 Posted 30/09/2011 at 19:59:29
Jon - I think these days 'fishing for men' is called importuning.
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1 Posted 27/09/2011 at 14:29:19
Moyes was making the best of the players he had available.