Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
An alternative to the media
By Kieran Fitzgerald :: 07/10/2011
67 Comments (»Last)
Many people on this site have criticised it for being overly negative. Apparently, all we ever do ? and I include myself in this ? is complain, whinge and see the worst in everything to do with the club. Maybe this is true; maybe it isn't. For me, I think the fact that I can come on to the website and read a number of different opinions and ideas posted by and for fans, is part of something bigger that is of huge value to fans of clubs like ours.
A website like ToffeeWeb isn't just about fans getting the opportunity to voice their opinion. It has proven itself to be highly informative in relation to potential stadium moves over the years, to highlighting the work of groups like KEIOC and Blue Union, to the workings of the Board, to what has happened at AGMs and even just providing high quality match reports.
Now this isn't just a piece of propaganda for the site. I have often disagreed with pieces posted by Michael and Lyndon, and have felt sometimes that we have been overly negative when contributing to the site. However, for fans of clubs like Everton, who are pretty much regarded as non-entities by the Media, social media outlets such as websites like ToffeeWeb or Bluekipper, are invaluable sources of information that we just wouldn't get anywhere else.
Take the traditional media. Regardless of what Everton do over the coming season, the Media will only ever trot out the same point. Haven't we done brilliant on a shoestring budget.
Take Fulham as another example. They could win the Europa League this season and finish in the top eight in the league. The only thing that the Media will bother to write about is that Fulham is what Roy Hodgson did next after leaving Liverpool.
Bolton could sign the Barca starting eleven in the January transfer window but the only thing that the Media will bother to write about, if at all, is that Bolton is a club renowned for it's hoofball tactics. How many full- or half-page articles will you see in the broadsheets about West Brom this season?
Journalists and TV pundits don't want to know about clubs outside of the super rich group of Sky Darlings. They don't want to bother researching. It's easier to just recycle the standard article. Their knowledge or interest in clubs like Everton or West Brom or Swansea is very poor. Chelsea and Man Utd sell newspapers and boost viewing figures, for them it is sexy football at it's finest. Journalists and TV pundits are happy to wax lyrical about Arsenal and Man City as it's good for their profile and makes them look knowledgeable. Every other club can just do and behave as they want.
I don't know about other clubs' websites. I don't know how good or how bad they are. I would hope for the sake of their fans that they have access to websites like ToffeeWeb and Bluekipper. Whether you agree with the style on websites like these, or even with the approach of supporters' groups like KEIOC or Blue Union, please just take the time to value the contribution they all make to clubs like Everton, or West Brom or Fulham. Without them, for fans like me, my knowledge would be confined to what the media and the offical site bother to give me.
Reader Comments (67)
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
David Robinson
2 Posted 07/10/2011 at 14:47:41
2 Posted 07/10/2011 at 14:47:41
Sites like ToffeeWeb and BlueKipper are important, but they don't really represent the views of the fans as a whole. It is always the case that those who are unhappy shout loudest, and that is certainly the case with fan articles.
There is a constant barrage of articles of anti-Kenwright articles, and when I wrote an article in defence of him the vast majority of comments were criticising me. One even accused me of being Ian Ross writing under a pseudonym!
There is nothing wrong with being against the board, but the fact is that the proportion of anti-Kenwright fans on these sites is not the same as the number of anti-Kenwright Everton fans.
There is a constant barrage of articles of anti-Kenwright articles, and when I wrote an article in defence of him the vast majority of comments were criticising me. One even accused me of being Ian Ross writing under a pseudonym!
There is nothing wrong with being against the board, but the fact is that the proportion of anti-Kenwright fans on these sites is not the same as the number of anti-Kenwright Everton fans.
Steve Guy
3 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:26:48
3 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:26:48
When you can't even rely on the (alleged) local press to report accurately and independently on all things Everton, you know you're in trouble and the views and news provided by TW are invaluable.
As far as the negativity is concerned, it feels a bit like that has been the case for a while now, but I think that reflects how the Club itself is acting; a lack of communication, poor performances etc. By implication better performances on the pitch and less BS from the Dear Leader may lead to more positivity from TW mailers and respondees. A few short seasons ago things were much more upbeat on this site and others. TW and other sites only hold the mirror up for us.
I agree with the points about the lack of reportage on teams outside the "Big" clubs. If I turn on Talksport in the car I try to guess beforehand which of these Big teams will be the discussion topic for the programme; I'm right most times :-)
As far as the negativity is concerned, it feels a bit like that has been the case for a while now, but I think that reflects how the Club itself is acting; a lack of communication, poor performances etc. By implication better performances on the pitch and less BS from the Dear Leader may lead to more positivity from TW mailers and respondees. A few short seasons ago things were much more upbeat on this site and others. TW and other sites only hold the mirror up for us.
I agree with the points about the lack of reportage on teams outside the "Big" clubs. If I turn on Talksport in the car I try to guess beforehand which of these Big teams will be the discussion topic for the programme; I'm right most times :-)
Trevor Mackie
4 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:17:52
4 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:17:52
Fergie, Wenger, Mourinho, Mancini even Guardiola have critics within their own fanbase it goes with the territory ? it shows passion a desire to improve and promotes accountability. Even the Moyes brigade admit his faults ? they just decide to accept it.
The 0.02% (I luv that) who don't are torch bearers for a better future, defenders of the clubs greatness ? it may not be a popular path, criticism is against the very notion of "supporter". But when change eventually comes and we move forward into broad sunlit uplands, it may be said ? never has so much been owed by so many to so few.(dabs hanky to eyes)
Remember, they may take our trees but never our TW.
The 0.02% (I luv that) who don't are torch bearers for a better future, defenders of the clubs greatness ? it may not be a popular path, criticism is against the very notion of "supporter". But when change eventually comes and we move forward into broad sunlit uplands, it may be said ? never has so much been owed by so many to so few.(dabs hanky to eyes)
Remember, they may take our trees but never our TW.
Ian McDowell
5 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:52:31
5 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:52:31
I always visit the opposition club's independent forums before a game. I find that to be a lot more interesting than reading some paragraph in the Mail or Mirror that just talks nonsense about 2 teams the reporter has probably hardly seen play. It's surprising actually, reading about which of our players opposition fans think highly of.
Matt Traynor
6 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:46:12
6 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:46:12
David (#2) "but the fact is that the proportion of anti-Kenwright fans on these sites is not the same as the number of anti-Kenwright Everton fans".
Whilst you're quoting "facts", here's a few for you:-
- ToffeeWeb has been around for a long time, in various guises - over 15 years I'd guess
- It is user-generated content. The editorial team may link to news items, but the majority of the site is written by users. It doesn't have any "affinity" to a particular point of view (although the editorial team may have their own view does not make it the view of TW!)
- Many of the users of TW are not from Liverpool, UK, or Europe. Many only ever get to see us on TV, and some dream of one day achieving their own personal Mecca - a pilgrimage to see Everton play. Just like other exiled Blues, TW provides a platform to discuss any subject the poster wishes, as long as it has at least a passing relevance in Everton.
- The volume of posts relating to particular subjects could be seen as an indication of what is "top of mind" for a lot of people.
- Whether you think First-Past-The-Post or PR is the better electoral mechanism, I don't think TW has ever proclaimed to be a reflection of all Evertonians' views.
And here's a couple of opinions (not facts) of my own:
- For whatever reason, Bluekipper seems to have a reputation as being more favourable towards the current situation - maybe it is their editorial policy. If you want to read glowing support, read that. If I want to read badly written ill-informed comment, I'll go there. I think many people who use this site also visit there, as part of their daily balanced EFC news diet.
Whilst you're quoting "facts", here's a few for you:-
- ToffeeWeb has been around for a long time, in various guises - over 15 years I'd guess
- It is user-generated content. The editorial team may link to news items, but the majority of the site is written by users. It doesn't have any "affinity" to a particular point of view (although the editorial team may have their own view does not make it the view of TW!)
- Many of the users of TW are not from Liverpool, UK, or Europe. Many only ever get to see us on TV, and some dream of one day achieving their own personal Mecca - a pilgrimage to see Everton play. Just like other exiled Blues, TW provides a platform to discuss any subject the poster wishes, as long as it has at least a passing relevance in Everton.
- The volume of posts relating to particular subjects could be seen as an indication of what is "top of mind" for a lot of people.
- Whether you think First-Past-The-Post or PR is the better electoral mechanism, I don't think TW has ever proclaimed to be a reflection of all Evertonians' views.
And here's a couple of opinions (not facts) of my own:
- For whatever reason, Bluekipper seems to have a reputation as being more favourable towards the current situation - maybe it is their editorial policy. If you want to read glowing support, read that. If I want to read badly written ill-informed comment, I'll go there. I think many people who use this site also visit there, as part of their daily balanced EFC news diet.
Peter Laing
7 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:57:17
7 Posted 07/10/2011 at 15:57:17
I second your analysis Kieran, but fail to agree with you on your assessment of bluekipper who in my opinion feel the need to continually toe the Club's party line regardless of the issue in hand.
Ian Tunstead
8 Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:12:34
8 Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:12:34
Haha i like that Trevor, but by the same token, if we lose Moyes and shortly afterwards are relegated, are you going to hold your hand up high and say "sorry guys, you 99.98% were right all along, i got in wrong"?
I would have full respect for your honesty if you did, but i suspect you would dissappear into the background and not utter a word.
I would have full respect for your honesty if you did, but i suspect you would dissappear into the background and not utter a word.
Ian Tunstead
9 Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:22:10
9 Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:22:10
Ian who do the opposition fans think highly of? Would be interesting to know. I suspect Cahill, Jags, Baines and Rodwell who are hyped up most by the media.
Kieran Fitzgerald
10 Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:44:44
10 Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:44:44
Peter @7. I do find Bluekipper to be very light and fluffy, and at times not serious enough. I suppose the main reason I included it in the post was just to highlight the fact that it is there as an alternative to the media.
Trevor @4. I agree totally. I'm sure Utd and Chelsea fans probably complain about the rotation policy at these clubs and complain about the team the manager sends out. Also, while Utd may be champions and top of the league, I doubt that their fans are happy with the amount of goals they're leaking or the fact that they're still playing Ryan Giggs, who's older than God.
Trevor @4. I agree totally. I'm sure Utd and Chelsea fans probably complain about the rotation policy at these clubs and complain about the team the manager sends out. Also, while Utd may be champions and top of the league, I doubt that their fans are happy with the amount of goals they're leaking or the fact that they're still playing Ryan Giggs, who's older than God.
Michael Kenrick
11 Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:48:07
11 Posted 07/10/2011 at 16:48:07
Kieran, good post: I think you nail it pretty well.
I suspect there's still a large number of fans who go to the match for entertainment and love of footie first and foremost, who aren't that interested in anything off the field beyond what they may read in the newspaper or catch on the radio & TV. We'd like them to be readers and contributors, obviously, but they probably don't even use the internet... or if they do, probably not to follow Everton.
So for a start they are not part of the equation: there is only a subset of Evertonians using the internet. And only a subset of them are using this site. And only a subset of them ever post their opinions.
Perhaps it's reasonable to ask: Are the views expressed representative? Well, they are representative of the individual poster (of course)... but beyond that, I'm not sure what more you can really expect?
The 'negativity' critics need to stand back and assess what it is they think people should be posting about if it's something different than what they actually feel about Everton. And perhaps they should first look in the mirror and ask why they are not making those posts themselves.
I suspect there's still a large number of fans who go to the match for entertainment and love of footie first and foremost, who aren't that interested in anything off the field beyond what they may read in the newspaper or catch on the radio & TV. We'd like them to be readers and contributors, obviously, but they probably don't even use the internet... or if they do, probably not to follow Everton.
So for a start they are not part of the equation: there is only a subset of Evertonians using the internet. And only a subset of them are using this site. And only a subset of them ever post their opinions.
Perhaps it's reasonable to ask: Are the views expressed representative? Well, they are representative of the individual poster (of course)... but beyond that, I'm not sure what more you can really expect?
The 'negativity' critics need to stand back and assess what it is they think people should be posting about if it's something different than what they actually feel about Everton. And perhaps they should first look in the mirror and ask why they are not making those posts themselves.
Stephen Kenny
12 Posted 07/10/2011 at 17:03:54
12 Posted 07/10/2011 at 17:03:54
I think if Lyndon and Sausage ever have a love child it'll be a well balanced Bluenose.
I go on kipper for a laugh and it can be very funny at times.
TW has the odd thread aswell, although tends to be more critical and introspective.
When you have posters capable of disecting corporate accounts, law specialists, stadium designers and a readership who by and large make it thier business to know whats going on at thier club then you are going to get that.
What can be said is that there is no other football site I've come across where the majority of posters are as well informed and sure of thier argument.
Negative is always the wrong word to use because if we go from the premise that we are all Evertonians then we are all willing the club to do well.
The only thing that differs is how far away from success we are and what we need to do to get to it.
To see how TW compares to the media you only have to read any of Ken or Pauls match reports compared to a sunday rag, half the time I doubt the reporter even watched the game.
I go on kipper for a laugh and it can be very funny at times.
TW has the odd thread aswell, although tends to be more critical and introspective.
When you have posters capable of disecting corporate accounts, law specialists, stadium designers and a readership who by and large make it thier business to know whats going on at thier club then you are going to get that.
What can be said is that there is no other football site I've come across where the majority of posters are as well informed and sure of thier argument.
Negative is always the wrong word to use because if we go from the premise that we are all Evertonians then we are all willing the club to do well.
The only thing that differs is how far away from success we are and what we need to do to get to it.
To see how TW compares to the media you only have to read any of Ken or Pauls match reports compared to a sunday rag, half the time I doubt the reporter even watched the game.
Trevor Mackie
13 Posted 07/10/2011 at 17:25:34
13 Posted 07/10/2011 at 17:25:34
Ian @ 8
Neither.
Clearly it would be Moysies fault for leaving such a shit setup and for losing Cahill - probably after playing him in goal where he broke a leg.
I'd be saying "Tunners see what you and the other ostriches have done.....I warned you......I warned you"
Neither.
Clearly it would be Moysies fault for leaving such a shit setup and for losing Cahill - probably after playing him in goal where he broke a leg.
I'd be saying "Tunners see what you and the other ostriches have done.....I warned you......I warned you"
Trevor Mackie
14 Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:06:17
14 Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:06:17
I think the crux of it lies in MK's numbers ie most fans just want to watch and support the club, straying into criticism isn't what "supporters" do - especially to do with club politics.
Those who have crossed the rubicon and criticize (me included) would be delighted if we could turn things around, if not by winning something then by providing hope. A change from sterile football even if it meant gambling on adventurous youngsters would be a start as would better communication and a bit more honesty.
I think Goodison would be re-invigourated.
Those who have crossed the rubicon and criticize (me included) would be delighted if we could turn things around, if not by winning something then by providing hope. A change from sterile football even if it meant gambling on adventurous youngsters would be a start as would better communication and a bit more honesty.
I think Goodison would be re-invigourated.
Ian Tunstead
15 Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:06:25
15 Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:06:25
Haha, Trevor it just proves he cant win and will never please the 0.02% on toffeeweb.
Michael, I think the 'negativity critics' just want Moyes to be criticised for something with good reason.
Michael, I think the 'negativity critics' just want Moyes to be criticised for something with good reason.
Richard Dodd
16 Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:39:01
16 Posted 07/10/2011 at 18:39:01
To bear out this point, just monitor Sky`s Sunday Supplement. In EVERY 90-minute edition you are lucky to get as much as 5 minutes on any club outside of the two Mancs, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs. And 4 minutes of that will be about bloody Newcastle who the southern journos detest!
Thank god for ToffeeWeb, I say, even if THEY detest ME!
Thank god for ToffeeWeb, I say, even if THEY detest ME!
Andy Crooks
17 Posted 07/10/2011 at 19:16:50
17 Posted 07/10/2011 at 19:16:50
Ian, I suspect I might well be one of the 0,02%. Well, if Moyes goes,leaving us safely mid table, and we appoint a decent coach and are relegated. You know what, I'll eat all the humble pie going and apologise. Sometimes, though, a coach goes and is replaced by his understudy, ie, Round. It never works and this is my fear. If Moyes were to suddenly leave Kenwright would go for the cheapest option.
Here's the alternative; a new chairman with a plan comes in and decides he wants to make changes. After careful consideration he appoints a new coach, the quality of our football changes, crowds increase, there is a new momentum, we challenge for the Champions League and suddenly we are of interest to buyers. Ian will you and others say, my God ,we should have dumped him years ago?
Here's the alternative; a new chairman with a plan comes in and decides he wants to make changes. After careful consideration he appoints a new coach, the quality of our football changes, crowds increase, there is a new momentum, we challenge for the Champions League and suddenly we are of interest to buyers. Ian will you and others say, my God ,we should have dumped him years ago?
Kieran Fitzgerald
18 Posted 07/10/2011 at 19:21:01
18 Posted 07/10/2011 at 19:21:01
I know what you mean, Michael about some supporters not wanting to delve too deeply. Football is about entertainment and escapism. While it may be something that you get passionate and emotive about, do you really want your hobby to be somehting that's serious and something that will get you down. It can be hard enough getting your head around losing on a Saturday without having to deal with all the other stuff.
With regard to the negaitve stuff, I suppose in general, people just call it as they see it. For me, there seems to be more and more to give out about and I just find it better to just keep my mouth shut. For one because others have already articulated how I'm feeling but more and more because at the moment, I just to think about positive things that will keep me going as a fan.
With regard to the negaitve stuff, I suppose in general, people just call it as they see it. For me, there seems to be more and more to give out about and I just find it better to just keep my mouth shut. For one because others have already articulated how I'm feeling but more and more because at the moment, I just to think about positive things that will keep me going as a fan.
Tony I'Anson
19 Posted 07/10/2011 at 20:30:16
19 Posted 07/10/2011 at 20:30:16
This is an article from 2008 about how Mr Obama got into the White House.
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/how-obamas-internet-campaign-changed-politics/
I feel that TW has many more lurkers than contributors taking in all the information and forming their own opinion about facts and rumours relating to EFC.
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/how-obamas-internet-campaign-changed-politics/
I feel that TW has many more lurkers than contributors taking in all the information and forming their own opinion about facts and rumours relating to EFC.
Michael Kenrick
20 Posted 07/10/2011 at 20:52:32
20 Posted 07/10/2011 at 20:52:32
But that's the point of individual opinions, Ian; Moyes ? the very epitome of negativity when it comes to football ? is crticised for good reason by the 0.02% who criticse him...
Whereas the 99.98% who can't accept criticism of Moyes and don't agree with it, cry 'negativity' at every turn, except ironically where it really exists ? on the field ? and they label it "pragmatism".
Whereas the 99.98% who can't accept criticism of Moyes and don't agree with it, cry 'negativity' at every turn, except ironically where it really exists ? on the field ? and they label it "pragmatism".
Mark Dunford
21 Posted 07/10/2011 at 21:45:37
21 Posted 07/10/2011 at 21:45:37
Most websites have more lurkers than contributors. People usually write when they have something to say and I'm not sure representativeness of a wider viewpoint or coherent criticism are really issues on any website. The simple fact is that writers are here, so the web is home to wider, deeper, larger number of opinions than the conventional media can handle. Like many websites, Toffeeweb drifts and can become what one commentator memorably called "a playground for the deranged", especially when matches are on. I recall one idiot was damned when he accused Moyes of racism in his treatment of some black players he'd apparently fallen out with - the writer was rightly hammered by all and sundry. The comment was off limits and the hammering reassuring.
Yes, I find Toffeeweb is generally too negative in its editorial stances and I feel it lacks a certain ability to empathise with people who have to take hard decisions. Having said that, it is an invaluable forum so I'm happy to disagree on many things.
Yes, I find Toffeeweb is generally too negative in its editorial stances and I feel it lacks a certain ability to empathise with people who have to take hard decisions. Having said that, it is an invaluable forum so I'm happy to disagree on many things.
Brendan McLaughlin
22 Posted 07/10/2011 at 23:17:04
22 Posted 07/10/2011 at 23:17:04
I have to agree with Mark #21 regarding the editorial stance. Its like buying your Sunday newspaper..if it turns you off, you'll opt for something else instead. To be fair I think this has been recognised by those in power at TW Towers & credit to them there have been a few subtle changes in the last few years.
Brendan McLaughlin
23 Posted 07/10/2011 at 23:42:34
23 Posted 07/10/2011 at 23:42:34
Trevor #4
Then again maybe the 0.02% are just the typical naysayers & begrudgers that represent that percentage of the population.
Then again maybe the 0.02% are just the typical naysayers & begrudgers that represent that percentage of the population.
Ian Tunstead
24 Posted 07/10/2011 at 23:50:53
24 Posted 07/10/2011 at 23:50:53
Your missing the whole point, i'm sick of this non sense about Moyes being negative. If Moyes had the money to go and buy the top attacking players he would have an attacking team like Man city have done.
Just look at when Yakubu was on form with Piennar and Arteta at their best, is it a coincidence that we played very good attacking and entertaining football? Dont you think Moyes would want his team to play like that every week if it was possible if he had the players? It's needs must we don not have the attacking talent. The most important thing to Moyes is get the results with the resources at his disposal and that is what he does
Just look at when Yakubu was on form with Piennar and Arteta at their best, is it a coincidence that we played very good attacking and entertaining football? Dont you think Moyes would want his team to play like that every week if it was possible if he had the players? It's needs must we don not have the attacking talent. The most important thing to Moyes is get the results with the resources at his disposal and that is what he does
Ian Tunstead
25 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:02:16
25 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:02:16
Andy the quality of our football wouldnt change unless the quality of the players change.
Kevin Freaney
26 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:09:23
26 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:09:23
Ian, are you saying our players aren't up to it...that we need multi-million players to be able to compete? I always thought that with a decent manager and a good backroom staff you could create good players.
Personally, I think we have a good team, I just don't believe Moyes has faith in them. He doesn't know his first 11 and because of that he has no confidence which is reflected in his tactics. Shame really, because I think we have some great talent, Moyes just isn't using it. He's hiding behind poor defensive tactics
Personally, I think we have a good team, I just don't believe Moyes has faith in them. He doesn't know his first 11 and because of that he has no confidence which is reflected in his tactics. Shame really, because I think we have some great talent, Moyes just isn't using it. He's hiding behind poor defensive tactics
Brendan McLaughlin
27 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:22:02
27 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:22:02
Kevin #26
Of course with a decent manager & a good backroom staff you can create good players...we have done. The problem with millions of pounds to spend you don't have to worry about creating....you just go out and buy!
Of course with a decent manager & a good backroom staff you can create good players...we have done. The problem with millions of pounds to spend you don't have to worry about creating....you just go out and buy!
Christine Foster
28 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:03:13
28 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:03:13
Some really interesting perspectives, from the view of "I just want to watch the football" to "I am concerned for the future of the club and how its run". Both are valid perspectives and sometimes the latter overwhelms the value of watching!
There is a line that's crossed between personal perspectives (opinions), interpretation of events (speculation), and actual commentary made (eg, re BU meeting).
Why do people take the time and trouble to be bothered? Well, I guess for me it's the whole package: I love my team, the football and the history, they are as part of me as if my blood ran blue. But the downside of such passion is the fact that you are (sometimes) too critical of decisions made that negatively impact on the club in some way.
So be it; that's human nature. But human nature also strives for the best one can be... without criticism, improvement will never exist.
I have been accused of carrying a vendetta (Michael) against BK and called for much worse in terms of personal abuse which I have never responded to in kind, I have no need to. But the basis of my criticism has been founded on the realisation of lies, untruths and attitudes towards fans and shareholders of this great club. That it was all finally uncovered to be what it was holds no satisfaction, just disgust that I as a fan, have been treated that way.
Much is made of the lack of substantiation of facts in subjective postings, but isn't that what journalism does? They dig for the truth so why shouldn't we?
If we accept that it's the way it is and meekly accept our fate or trust in those who run the club with blind faith, then we are as much to blame for any failure. Everyone in life is held to account by others. Life on TW means that (as I remember Lyndon and Michael telling me personally) once you post, you have to take the good with the bad responses, even as personal as it can get.
But that doesn't stop the search for the truth nor the desire to see our team succeed; we all have that responsibility... we don't all have the means to make a difference but we all have our view, our take, and our opportunity to voice it.
That's the point of ToffeeWeb forums, long may they champion the drive for success of Everton FC.
There is a line that's crossed between personal perspectives (opinions), interpretation of events (speculation), and actual commentary made (eg, re BU meeting).
Why do people take the time and trouble to be bothered? Well, I guess for me it's the whole package: I love my team, the football and the history, they are as part of me as if my blood ran blue. But the downside of such passion is the fact that you are (sometimes) too critical of decisions made that negatively impact on the club in some way.
So be it; that's human nature. But human nature also strives for the best one can be... without criticism, improvement will never exist.
I have been accused of carrying a vendetta (Michael) against BK and called for much worse in terms of personal abuse which I have never responded to in kind, I have no need to. But the basis of my criticism has been founded on the realisation of lies, untruths and attitudes towards fans and shareholders of this great club. That it was all finally uncovered to be what it was holds no satisfaction, just disgust that I as a fan, have been treated that way.
Much is made of the lack of substantiation of facts in subjective postings, but isn't that what journalism does? They dig for the truth so why shouldn't we?
If we accept that it's the way it is and meekly accept our fate or trust in those who run the club with blind faith, then we are as much to blame for any failure. Everyone in life is held to account by others. Life on TW means that (as I remember Lyndon and Michael telling me personally) once you post, you have to take the good with the bad responses, even as personal as it can get.
But that doesn't stop the search for the truth nor the desire to see our team succeed; we all have that responsibility... we don't all have the means to make a difference but we all have our view, our take, and our opportunity to voice it.
That's the point of ToffeeWeb forums, long may they champion the drive for success of Everton FC.
Michael Kenrick
29 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:15:05
29 Posted 08/10/2011 at 00:15:05
What 'results' are these you talk of, Ian? Losing 2-0 perhaps?
Playing an injured / unfit / off-form / Cahill against Liverpool on the basis that he was our leading scorer in the fixture, despite not having scored all year?
He doesn't select Vellios because Vellios is lacking in match sharpness... because Moyes doesn't play him. Go Figure!
He doesn't play his new striker he's had on the books for a month because he had no pre-season / is still not ready / or is simply not good enough.
Yet, when forced to, when the game is lost, he puts BOTH of them on the field along with Drenthe, expecting them to get something from the game when the opposition can just sit back on their lead, and wait for the inevitable mistakes to pick us off.
Would it really not make more sense to play his strikers when the score is nil-nil and both teams might be playing up? So they could perhaps find more space to create and finishes chances? Rather than this dreadfully NEGATIVE approach of starting with an ultra-defensive line-up that plays defensively, holding on to the point we start with... hope and pray the opposition don't score, hope and pray we get a chance on a set-piece...
Only to go behind in the second half because they do score, and only then does Moyes switch to more attacking play... which the team are now almost incapable of executing because they are drilled into a negative mindset.
Moyes is the epitome of negativity. I'm surprised you can't see it. But all this is really a bit off-topic.
Playing an injured / unfit / off-form / Cahill against Liverpool on the basis that he was our leading scorer in the fixture, despite not having scored all year?
He doesn't select Vellios because Vellios is lacking in match sharpness... because Moyes doesn't play him. Go Figure!
He doesn't play his new striker he's had on the books for a month because he had no pre-season / is still not ready / or is simply not good enough.
Yet, when forced to, when the game is lost, he puts BOTH of them on the field along with Drenthe, expecting them to get something from the game when the opposition can just sit back on their lead, and wait for the inevitable mistakes to pick us off.
Would it really not make more sense to play his strikers when the score is nil-nil and both teams might be playing up? So they could perhaps find more space to create and finishes chances? Rather than this dreadfully NEGATIVE approach of starting with an ultra-defensive line-up that plays defensively, holding on to the point we start with... hope and pray the opposition don't score, hope and pray we get a chance on a set-piece...
Only to go behind in the second half because they do score, and only then does Moyes switch to more attacking play... which the team are now almost incapable of executing because they are drilled into a negative mindset.
Moyes is the epitome of negativity. I'm surprised you can't see it. But all this is really a bit off-topic.
Ian Tunstead
30 Posted 08/10/2011 at 01:12:27
30 Posted 08/10/2011 at 01:12:27
Kevin how do you 'create' good players? If it was possibhle to 'create' good players, Osman would be able to play like Messi.
I'm not saying our players aren't up to it, I'm saying our only proven striker has been injured/not match fit and the others are unproven, so early season I am saying our attacking players have not been up to it.
I'm not saying our players aren't up to it, I'm saying our only proven striker has been injured/not match fit and the others are unproven, so early season I am saying our attacking players have not been up to it.
Ian Tunstead
31 Posted 08/10/2011 at 01:17:51
31 Posted 08/10/2011 at 01:17:51
No Michael, I'm talking about the results over the course of a season that see us consistantly finishing above the majority of the teams in the league with far less money.
Moyes does play Vellios, he's played a part in most games this season. It's very simple Cahill is proven against the top teams especially against Liverpool and Man City. The bookies are not stupid either because they also know Cahill is more likely to score than anyone else in our squad except for Saha.
Without the benefit of hindsight, ask your self the question, who would you honestly put money on to score against Liverpool and Man City out of Cahill or Vellios?
"when the game is lost, he puts BOTH of them on the field along with Drenthe, expecting them to get something from the game when the opposition can just sit back on their lead, and wait for the inevitable mistakes to pick us off."
Is that what happend against Wigan? When all 3 contributed to a goal.
"Would it really not make more sense to play his strikers when the score is nil-nil and both teams might be playing up? So they could perhaps find more space to create and finishes chances?" It's a good point, maybe you are right, but the midfield battle is the most important area, if it is a close nil nil game and Moyes brings on his striker/attacking players which results in losing the midfield battle which shifts the balance in favour of the opposition then Moyes would get a right good slagging on here...
And that is exactly what happened: he tried your little idea aginst Man City, he brought Saha on and they scored immediately. He brought Drenthe on and they scored again. So your theory didn't actually work in practice.
I'm surprised you can't see all this, didn't you watch the Man City and Wigan games, but as you say this is a bit off topic.
Good effort though Michael, better than most on here, keep setting them up and I'll keep knockin' em down. At least you have an argument.
Moyes does play Vellios, he's played a part in most games this season. It's very simple Cahill is proven against the top teams especially against Liverpool and Man City. The bookies are not stupid either because they also know Cahill is more likely to score than anyone else in our squad except for Saha.
Without the benefit of hindsight, ask your self the question, who would you honestly put money on to score against Liverpool and Man City out of Cahill or Vellios?
"when the game is lost, he puts BOTH of them on the field along with Drenthe, expecting them to get something from the game when the opposition can just sit back on their lead, and wait for the inevitable mistakes to pick us off."
Is that what happend against Wigan? When all 3 contributed to a goal.
"Would it really not make more sense to play his strikers when the score is nil-nil and both teams might be playing up? So they could perhaps find more space to create and finishes chances?" It's a good point, maybe you are right, but the midfield battle is the most important area, if it is a close nil nil game and Moyes brings on his striker/attacking players which results in losing the midfield battle which shifts the balance in favour of the opposition then Moyes would get a right good slagging on here...
And that is exactly what happened: he tried your little idea aginst Man City, he brought Saha on and they scored immediately. He brought Drenthe on and they scored again. So your theory didn't actually work in practice.
I'm surprised you can't see all this, didn't you watch the Man City and Wigan games, but as you say this is a bit off topic.
Good effort though Michael, better than most on here, keep setting them up and I'll keep knockin' em down. At least you have an argument.
Kevin Freaney
32 Posted 08/10/2011 at 01:39:14
32 Posted 08/10/2011 at 01:39:14
Why do we hire coaches then Ian? Why not just have medical staff check on the fitness. The idea is to try improve the players game, obvioulsy not to the point of Messi! But Osman has improved over the years. I still believe good coaching and management can go some way to evening out the money arguement.
And Moyes and his back-up team aren't capable of that at the moment. Our coaches are all very defensive. Everything about the club at the moment is defensive. Denis should be ready to play up front at least as a sub by now. It doesn't take this long to get full fitness. Vellios is well capable of starting. Drenthe should be ready by now to tear down that wing. We have some great players, not being used. That's my worry Ian.
And Moyes and his back-up team aren't capable of that at the moment. Our coaches are all very defensive. Everything about the club at the moment is defensive. Denis should be ready to play up front at least as a sub by now. It doesn't take this long to get full fitness. Vellios is well capable of starting. Drenthe should be ready by now to tear down that wing. We have some great players, not being used. That's my worry Ian.
Christine Foster
33 Posted 08/10/2011 at 02:37:18
33 Posted 08/10/2011 at 02:37:18
Ian, it is perhaps the most frustrating trait that David Moyes has, the ability to be ultra conservative in his approach rather than show initiative or tactical savvy before or during a game. I noted a while back that EVERY striker Moyes has had over the years ends up running the channels, playing alone up front and eventually leaving for pastures new in utter frustration. Every one.
Looking at the rest of the team, more than half have been regulars for the half the decade or more. Strikers under Moyes last a couple of seasons if they are lucky. On the other hand, we have the unfathomable decision to keep hold of and play Big Vic at EVERY opportunity. I could play better up front than he does... but Moyes has his favourites ? and they aren't strikers.
But back to the approach, stacking the midfield and playing behind the ball stifles any creative midfield (no through balls to play ? only backwards or sideways as there is no one up front). Opposition corners? No-one up front to hold up a ball when it's hoofed out? That's good tactics?
The bottom line is Moyes IS a defensive-orientated manager. He understands defence, he never has understood how to score goals ? or what's needed to get the best out of those who can.
Looking at the rest of the team, more than half have been regulars for the half the decade or more. Strikers under Moyes last a couple of seasons if they are lucky. On the other hand, we have the unfathomable decision to keep hold of and play Big Vic at EVERY opportunity. I could play better up front than he does... but Moyes has his favourites ? and they aren't strikers.
But back to the approach, stacking the midfield and playing behind the ball stifles any creative midfield (no through balls to play ? only backwards or sideways as there is no one up front). Opposition corners? No-one up front to hold up a ball when it's hoofed out? That's good tactics?
The bottom line is Moyes IS a defensive-orientated manager. He understands defence, he never has understood how to score goals ? or what's needed to get the best out of those who can.
Christine Foster
34 Posted 08/10/2011 at 02:49:55
34 Posted 08/10/2011 at 02:49:55
With respect to the media, there is the focus on the teams that create interest and spend the money, hence the big names and the big money, because that's what spells success as a business and usually as a team. Everyone wants to back a winner so journos are no different ? they pander to the fans of the top four because around the world people associate themselves with successful teams.
Everton frankly have little of news value on the pitch, our play is generally without creativity, our formation predictable and our threat limited. We have the ability to upset at times but the perception is that we are plucky also-rans.
So a lack of newsworthiness all round. Even in the transfer market, no signings, no news, no points of discussion, no interest.
So what does TW give us? It is perhaps the best and most objective coverage of games through Ken B it gives support and criticism to players, manager and board alike in a way that no journalists have the courage or foresight to ask the questions and enable the fans to give a soap box to their opinion in a way the OS refuses to do.
If there is a criticism of TW then it's that it can be too introspective. But it does provide a balance that otherwise would never exist.
Everton frankly have little of news value on the pitch, our play is generally without creativity, our formation predictable and our threat limited. We have the ability to upset at times but the perception is that we are plucky also-rans.
So a lack of newsworthiness all round. Even in the transfer market, no signings, no news, no points of discussion, no interest.
So what does TW give us? It is perhaps the best and most objective coverage of games through Ken B it gives support and criticism to players, manager and board alike in a way that no journalists have the courage or foresight to ask the questions and enable the fans to give a soap box to their opinion in a way the OS refuses to do.
If there is a criticism of TW then it's that it can be too introspective. But it does provide a balance that otherwise would never exist.
Kevin Freaney
35 Posted 08/10/2011 at 03:10:02
35 Posted 08/10/2011 at 03:10:02
Christine #34, says it all. Superb post.
Derek Thomas
36 Posted 08/10/2011 at 05:11:46
36 Posted 08/10/2011 at 05:11:46
Time to kill off this 0.02% rubbish for good. While it was good for a laugh and, in it's own little way, a minor 'bon mot' It just doesn't stack up as fully accurate and is being used as a label to marginalise a good selection of this here fan base.
0.02% aka 1 in 5000, on the recent poll re Moyes's tactic (ha!), over 4000 voted, 58% or about 2,800 disagreed with Moyes... Hardly 1 in 5000
So let's have no more of this 0.02% bollocks.
It could be valid to claim that, on the strength of that poll and the lack of detractors on Marshy's last piece, that a lot more than 0.02% think that the Bill & Davie double act is actually doing the biz.
Christine; on the money as usual.
0.02% aka 1 in 5000, on the recent poll re Moyes's tactic (ha!), over 4000 voted, 58% or about 2,800 disagreed with Moyes... Hardly 1 in 5000
So let's have no more of this 0.02% bollocks.
It could be valid to claim that, on the strength of that poll and the lack of detractors on Marshy's last piece, that a lot more than 0.02% think that the Bill & Davie double act is actually doing the biz.
Christine; on the money as usual.
Michael Kenrick
37 Posted 08/10/2011 at 05:20:11
37 Posted 08/10/2011 at 05:20:11
Three great posts, Christine. If I lectured you over being too tough on our Luvvy Leader, I hope you can eventually forgive me: I was clearly wrong. A moment of weakness!
Re the 'introspective' comment... do you mean threads like this? I know it's the second in the space of a few days, but these bloody International breaks do my head in. So what better to talk about than ourselves when nothing else seems to be happening? But beyond that, what do you mean?
Perhaps you the whole "shooting of the messenger" that goes with this 'commonly held perception' that there is an agenda? That there is a slant?
The agenda is What's going on today that's of interest to Evertonians?
The slant is: Can we be better? (? you know... think some phrase in Latin... )
Re the 'introspective' comment... do you mean threads like this? I know it's the second in the space of a few days, but these bloody International breaks do my head in. So what better to talk about than ourselves when nothing else seems to be happening? But beyond that, what do you mean?
Perhaps you the whole "shooting of the messenger" that goes with this 'commonly held perception' that there is an agenda? That there is a slant?
The agenda is What's going on today that's of interest to Evertonians?
The slant is: Can we be better? (? you know... think some phrase in Latin... )
Christine Foster
38 Posted 08/10/2011 at 07:25:44
38 Posted 08/10/2011 at 07:25:44
MIchael, thanks for the comments, regarding TW being a little too introspective at times, I think perhaps TW speculates and arrives at conclusions way ahead of the general mass of fans, we may join the dots quicker but most likely there is a lag between understanding what's happening and actually getting the message across.
There is then a tendency to look at the threads and it cuts so many ways that the general and often valid points are lost in the lack of minute detail. We should accept that there is limited information and draw what we can instead of disecting opinion and subjective views to the point of distraction.
Too often the threads lose impact because of the oft disruptive or abusive comment that adds little value.
But then as my Dad used to say, "To find gold you have to move an awful lot of dirt"
I wouldn't have it any other way.
There is then a tendency to look at the threads and it cuts so many ways that the general and often valid points are lost in the lack of minute detail. We should accept that there is limited information and draw what we can instead of disecting opinion and subjective views to the point of distraction.
Too often the threads lose impact because of the oft disruptive or abusive comment that adds little value.
But then as my Dad used to say, "To find gold you have to move an awful lot of dirt"
I wouldn't have it any other way.
Jon Beck
39 Posted 08/10/2011 at 07:55:43
39 Posted 08/10/2011 at 07:55:43
Good article and debate, very much shows the best of Toffeeweb in my view.
Am I the only one pedantic enough to point out that Hodgson is at WBA not Fulham? Yes? Thought so :( .....slinks off
Am I the only one pedantic enough to point out that Hodgson is at WBA not Fulham? Yes? Thought so :( .....slinks off
Brendan McLaughlin
40 Posted 08/10/2011 at 10:29:17
40 Posted 08/10/2011 at 10:29:17
Derek #36
I think you miss the point that the 0.02% are all over this site like a rash. This means that they may give some people the impression that they represent something more than the 0.02%. Don't be fooled.
I think you miss the point that the 0.02% are all over this site like a rash. This means that they may give some people the impression that they represent something more than the 0.02%. Don't be fooled.
Ian Tunstead
41 Posted 08/10/2011 at 11:37:42
41 Posted 08/10/2011 at 11:37:42
Kevin, have a read of this, it is not just David Moyes who knows it takes a while to reach full match fitness. Even Fellaini said it would take him 2 months to get back to his best.
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11678_7230099,00.html
Why do we hire coaches you say. Well I have a manager and a coach for my Saturday team, they don't teach me anything, they just run the training session, tell me to run around a field, pick the teams. It's by playing games and gaining experience that you improve and get fitter and more confidence in your game.
Look at Rooney for example, what player in world football could coach and improve him as a 16-17 year old? He was already better than every other forward in the country. You've either got it or you haven't ? no amount of coaching will improve his ability, only his fitness.
You say: "The idea is to try improve the players game, obviously not to the point of Messi! But Osman has improved over the years. I still believe good coaching and management can go some way to evening out the money arguement. And Moyes and his back-up team aren't capable of that at the moment"
Well what does that mean? You've said Osman has improved but then you're saying Moyes is now not capable. Baines, Jagielka, Fellaini, Pienaar etc all improved under Moyes... because they have earned their place in the side and played well, Moyes has rewarded that by giving them a run of games which has improved their game.
It is only a matter of time before Vellios and Drenthe and Stracqualursi start games ? I have no doubt about that. But it's a long season, everyone will get their chance.
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11678_7230099,00.html
Why do we hire coaches you say. Well I have a manager and a coach for my Saturday team, they don't teach me anything, they just run the training session, tell me to run around a field, pick the teams. It's by playing games and gaining experience that you improve and get fitter and more confidence in your game.
Look at Rooney for example, what player in world football could coach and improve him as a 16-17 year old? He was already better than every other forward in the country. You've either got it or you haven't ? no amount of coaching will improve his ability, only his fitness.
You say: "The idea is to try improve the players game, obviously not to the point of Messi! But Osman has improved over the years. I still believe good coaching and management can go some way to evening out the money arguement. And Moyes and his back-up team aren't capable of that at the moment"
Well what does that mean? You've said Osman has improved but then you're saying Moyes is now not capable. Baines, Jagielka, Fellaini, Pienaar etc all improved under Moyes... because they have earned their place in the side and played well, Moyes has rewarded that by giving them a run of games which has improved their game.
It is only a matter of time before Vellios and Drenthe and Stracqualursi start games ? I have no doubt about that. But it's a long season, everyone will get their chance.
Ian Tunstead
42 Posted 08/10/2011 at 11:53:35
42 Posted 08/10/2011 at 11:53:35
Derek, it is only the same as comments like the "Moyes apologists" and what was the other one a few days ago, something like "the red hand gang"?
Ian Tunstead
43 Posted 08/10/2011 at 12:03:41
43 Posted 08/10/2011 at 12:03:41
Christine, nearly every striker I watch ends up "running the channels". Top defenders will always try to keep the opposition on their weaker foot and lead them down the channels away from goal, so that is their doing not Moyes.
The very top players, usually the most expensive have the ability to use either foot or the skill, speed and ability to not let the defenders lead them away from goal. Players like Auguero, Messi, Torres are direct and head straight to goal with blistering pace and skill.
The point I am making, if we had the money to bring in Messi, his game wouldn't change, he would still be direct ? just like Rooney was when he was at Everton; he wouldn't be "coached to run the channels".
If that is your opinion that Moyes shows no tactical savvy then fair enough, but my opinion is that he has a lot more tactical savvy than most in the league.
It is not only Everton that play one up front ? many top managers have their teams play that way, even though they have far more attacking talent available than Moyes.
You make it sound negative than we play up front with a 4-5-1 set-up but it can easily become 4-3-3. Look at Barcelona they also play one up front Look at England, we seem to play better with one up front rather than 2.
You say the strikers move on to pastures new but, apart from Rooney, have any of these strikers actually moved on to bigger and better things?
You say "We have the unfathomable decision to keep hold of and play Big Vic at EVERY opportunity. I could play better up front than he does... but Moyes has his favourites ? and they aren't strikers."
I dont understand your point, your saying strikers aren't his favourites but Vic is a striker (not a very good one, I admit) but you're saying he's one of his favourites so you are contridicting yourself.
You talk about there being no-one up front to hold the ball up, so why do you think he always has to play big Vic? Because Saha is always injured or he will have to play Cahill up front because we have no other options.
You talk about no through balls, only side and back passes but that isn't becuase there are no options up front, it's because they don't have the ability, vision and awareness to 1) see the pass, and 2) make the pass if they could see it.
Rodwell has played in defence his whole life; it is not his game to pick passes like Rooney or Beckham, he has always picked the easy side and backwards pass, no matter how many options are a head of him.
It's not about if Moyes knows how to attack and score goals ? it is a question of do his players know how to attack and score goals.
The very top players, usually the most expensive have the ability to use either foot or the skill, speed and ability to not let the defenders lead them away from goal. Players like Auguero, Messi, Torres are direct and head straight to goal with blistering pace and skill.
The point I am making, if we had the money to bring in Messi, his game wouldn't change, he would still be direct ? just like Rooney was when he was at Everton; he wouldn't be "coached to run the channels".
If that is your opinion that Moyes shows no tactical savvy then fair enough, but my opinion is that he has a lot more tactical savvy than most in the league.
It is not only Everton that play one up front ? many top managers have their teams play that way, even though they have far more attacking talent available than Moyes.
You make it sound negative than we play up front with a 4-5-1 set-up but it can easily become 4-3-3. Look at Barcelona they also play one up front Look at England, we seem to play better with one up front rather than 2.
You say the strikers move on to pastures new but, apart from Rooney, have any of these strikers actually moved on to bigger and better things?
You say "We have the unfathomable decision to keep hold of and play Big Vic at EVERY opportunity. I could play better up front than he does... but Moyes has his favourites ? and they aren't strikers."
I dont understand your point, your saying strikers aren't his favourites but Vic is a striker (not a very good one, I admit) but you're saying he's one of his favourites so you are contridicting yourself.
You talk about there being no-one up front to hold the ball up, so why do you think he always has to play big Vic? Because Saha is always injured or he will have to play Cahill up front because we have no other options.
You talk about no through balls, only side and back passes but that isn't becuase there are no options up front, it's because they don't have the ability, vision and awareness to 1) see the pass, and 2) make the pass if they could see it.
Rodwell has played in defence his whole life; it is not his game to pick passes like Rooney or Beckham, he has always picked the easy side and backwards pass, no matter how many options are a head of him.
It's not about if Moyes knows how to attack and score goals ? it is a question of do his players know how to attack and score goals.
Gavin Ramejkis
44 Posted 08/10/2011 at 13:24:37
44 Posted 08/10/2011 at 13:24:37
Ian #31 good to see you mention the bookies know what they are on about... before the Man City game they were offering more than 100-1 on Cahill 1-0, they obviously pay more attention to here-and-now form than Moyes does.
Ian Tunstead
45 Posted 08/10/2011 at 14:18:39
45 Posted 08/10/2011 at 14:18:39
Exactly Gavin they knew how difficult it was going to be to score and beat Man City but some on here seem to think Moyes should be beating Man City everytime. What were they offering for Vellios and Strac out of interest?
Michael Kenrick
46 Posted 08/10/2011 at 15:44:08
46 Posted 08/10/2011 at 15:44:08
Ian, you excuse the poor play we all witness through a wealth of well constructed excuses that invariably blame the players and not the manager. The other proponent of this arguement is Thomas J Williams, who blames the players at every opportunity and will not hear a word said against Moyes.
But there's another way to interpret what you are seeing on the pitch, and it actually gives the manager far more credit than you do for the way the team is set up in training, how tactics are drilled into them by the coaches, how their innate individual skills are honed and structured to play a team game ? such that the ability of the team exceeds that of its individual parts.
Movement off the ball, running into space, evading your marker, having players up-field for corners, passing rather than hoofing ? these are all very simple things that Everton simply do not do. It cannot possibly be that the players are incapable.
The only valid explanation is that they are not set up and encouraged to play expansive forward-moving football when they have possession of the ball because what they are forced to do is to always be concerned about shape and being in defensive positions, ready to cover, track back and defend the moment they lose the ball.
It's not a question of lack of these basic skills ? the idea that Primer League players lack these skills is preposterous. It's a question of how the team is set up to play, it's a question of the collective mentality of the team.
The evidence sadly, is that the mentality of the team has become, introspective, defensive ... negative. I am 99.98% convinced that is down to one man and his ultra-defensive training set-up.
But, since we're exchanging compliments, well done, Ian: you came up with every possible alternative excuse as to why we play such negative football and are so awful to watch. Your post #43 stands as a paragon of the apologist's art!
But there's another way to interpret what you are seeing on the pitch, and it actually gives the manager far more credit than you do for the way the team is set up in training, how tactics are drilled into them by the coaches, how their innate individual skills are honed and structured to play a team game ? such that the ability of the team exceeds that of its individual parts.
Movement off the ball, running into space, evading your marker, having players up-field for corners, passing rather than hoofing ? these are all very simple things that Everton simply do not do. It cannot possibly be that the players are incapable.
The only valid explanation is that they are not set up and encouraged to play expansive forward-moving football when they have possession of the ball because what they are forced to do is to always be concerned about shape and being in defensive positions, ready to cover, track back and defend the moment they lose the ball.
It's not a question of lack of these basic skills ? the idea that Primer League players lack these skills is preposterous. It's a question of how the team is set up to play, it's a question of the collective mentality of the team.
The evidence sadly, is that the mentality of the team has become, introspective, defensive ... negative. I am 99.98% convinced that is down to one man and his ultra-defensive training set-up.
But, since we're exchanging compliments, well done, Ian: you came up with every possible alternative excuse as to why we play such negative football and are so awful to watch. Your post #43 stands as a paragon of the apologist's art!
Ian Tunstead
47 Posted 08/10/2011 at 16:53:32
47 Posted 08/10/2011 at 16:53:32
Michael, they are not excuses they are good reasons. We are talking theory and opinins, i need you to watch something for me, just to prove my point. Something which is factual unless the commentry are not being truthful but they have no reason to lie. Look from 2min 10sec onwards. It explains how Barkley is playing defensivley but it is Moyes who is telling him to get forward and attack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqPZQ99KgWk
You talk about players hoofing rather than passing but I have heard myself and read of other people on here saying Moyes is constantly telling his players to pass it especially Jaggs.
But the truth is he is incapable no matter who is his coach. He tried to pass it out from the back for England against Spain and he was found out, that is why he sits on the bench for England He is better off playing to his strengths and hoofing it for Everton and concentrating on his defending because he will be found out for us as well. But silly Moyes actually wants him to pass it out, luckily Jaggs does not listen to him very often. That is Moyes real failing, his players do not listen to him and Moyes does not drop them for it, but it would be silly to fall out with one of his only 3 centre backs.
You talk about players hoofing rather than passing but I have heard myself and read of other people on here saying Moyes is constantly telling his players to pass it especially Jaggs.
But the truth is he is incapable no matter who is his coach. He tried to pass it out from the back for England against Spain and he was found out, that is why he sits on the bench for England He is better off playing to his strengths and hoofing it for Everton and concentrating on his defending because he will be found out for us as well. But silly Moyes actually wants him to pass it out, luckily Jaggs does not listen to him very often. That is Moyes real failing, his players do not listen to him and Moyes does not drop them for it, but it would be silly to fall out with one of his only 3 centre backs.
Brian Hill
48 Posted 08/10/2011 at 17:30:33
48 Posted 08/10/2011 at 17:30:33
Anyway, back to the original point of the article, which, to me, was in praise of Toffeeweb. This thread alone makes my day. I live in Cape Town and know no other Evertonians so most of my Everton input comes here. The debate between Michael and Ian is fabulous. I tend to favour Michael's view but have total respect for Ian's. I miss the everyday Blues talk so much and Toffeeweb provides a marvellous outlet for all things Everton. By the way, don't take each submission in isolation, they are obviously the product of much discussion and passionate argument with other Blues, therefore reflecting more than just the views of the correspondent. To finish, thank you Michael and Lyndon for this magnificent facility, it means a lot.
John Daley
49 Posted 08/10/2011 at 21:26:16
49 Posted 08/10/2011 at 21:26:16
" it would be silly to fall out with one of his only 3 centre backs."
Absolutely. Especially when he already fell out with his fourth centre back and had to banish him to Turkey for the past two seasons as a result.
Absolutely. Especially when he already fell out with his fourth centre back and had to banish him to Turkey for the past two seasons as a result.
David Edwards
50 Posted 08/10/2011 at 21:32:58
50 Posted 08/10/2011 at 21:32:58
Fully behind the main intention of the article - to praise the existence of TW as a beacon of reality compared to the media and the official site.
Is TW more negative than the overall fan base - probably - but I'd like to think those on this site have much more access to facts and differing opinions than other fans, and it would be surprising, in the face of the board's efforts, Kirkby etc, if we were not more sceptical than most as well.
I must confess it was Blue Kipper that initially got me into the on-line EFC community several years ago. I enjoyed their wit, dedication, character and style, and since it was around the time the Moyes 'vision' was still fresh and taking us to a better place than Walter had taken us - I thoroughly enjoyed their optimism, the tales of our UEFA adventures etc. It was a happier time (maybe naive too, in hindsight), and found TW's cautionary atmosphere less palatable.
Well, all I can say is thank God we have TW and their questioning attitude at present, because without it, I think Bill and the board would be sleeping far too soundly in their beds. I now find Blue Kipper's perky air of optimism difficult to take when our club is at such a crossroads in our history - and TW is now my first port of call for a real alternative view to the club-related hype.
I know Blue Kipper (I was going to use their initials, but that might cause confusion!...hmmmm!) need to treat carefully given their annual fans and players events (for fear of biting the hand that feeds), and their longer articles and email reviews do have some more bite to them than their headline articles - so it really isn't a criticism of these great fans. It's just that TW is where the real debate on our future is taking place - and long may it continue.
Every organisation needs an 'awkward squad' to fight against the official line - long live TW and the likes of Michael, Lyndon, Ken, Brian, Marshy, Doddy, Andy etc... for some balance at least - which at present means being more critical than most. Well done lads and lasses!
Is TW more negative than the overall fan base - probably - but I'd like to think those on this site have much more access to facts and differing opinions than other fans, and it would be surprising, in the face of the board's efforts, Kirkby etc, if we were not more sceptical than most as well.
I must confess it was Blue Kipper that initially got me into the on-line EFC community several years ago. I enjoyed their wit, dedication, character and style, and since it was around the time the Moyes 'vision' was still fresh and taking us to a better place than Walter had taken us - I thoroughly enjoyed their optimism, the tales of our UEFA adventures etc. It was a happier time (maybe naive too, in hindsight), and found TW's cautionary atmosphere less palatable.
Well, all I can say is thank God we have TW and their questioning attitude at present, because without it, I think Bill and the board would be sleeping far too soundly in their beds. I now find Blue Kipper's perky air of optimism difficult to take when our club is at such a crossroads in our history - and TW is now my first port of call for a real alternative view to the club-related hype.
I know Blue Kipper (I was going to use their initials, but that might cause confusion!...hmmmm!) need to treat carefully given their annual fans and players events (for fear of biting the hand that feeds), and their longer articles and email reviews do have some more bite to them than their headline articles - so it really isn't a criticism of these great fans. It's just that TW is where the real debate on our future is taking place - and long may it continue.
Every organisation needs an 'awkward squad' to fight against the official line - long live TW and the likes of Michael, Lyndon, Ken, Brian, Marshy, Doddy, Andy etc... for some balance at least - which at present means being more critical than most. Well done lads and lasses!
Denis Richardson
51 Posted 08/10/2011 at 21:18:44
51 Posted 08/10/2011 at 21:18:44
Ian, on a side note, can I ask you one question. Can you let me know how you felt last season on hearing/reading the team sheet against West Ham, when they were I believe 2nd from bottom.
What did you think of the manager playing Cahil on his own up front when we had a total of 4 fit strikers/forwards on the bench.
Just curious on your opinion of the above tactic and whether you think is was overly defensive at the time?
What did you think of the manager playing Cahil on his own up front when we had a total of 4 fit strikers/forwards on the bench.
Just curious on your opinion of the above tactic and whether you think is was overly defensive at the time?
Denis Richardson
52 Posted 08/10/2011 at 21:59:09
52 Posted 08/10/2011 at 21:59:09
Forgot to say, big thank you to the team that takes care of the site. Keep up the great work.
Ian Tunstead
53 Posted 08/10/2011 at 22:33:04
53 Posted 08/10/2011 at 22:33:04
Hi Denis, was this the game Fellaini scored? To be honest i cant remember the starting 11 and the subs so cant realy comment.
Who were the 4 fit strikers at the time? Probably big Vic, who i would rather not see on the pitch, probably the Yak who had give up trying, probably Beckford who couldnt hold the ball up and probably Saha who was probably injured in some way.
This season is more fresh in the mind, it will be easier to discuss. Sorry i couldn't give you a propper answer.
Who were the 4 fit strikers at the time? Probably big Vic, who i would rather not see on the pitch, probably the Yak who had give up trying, probably Beckford who couldnt hold the ball up and probably Saha who was probably injured in some way.
This season is more fresh in the mind, it will be easier to discuss. Sorry i couldn't give you a propper answer.
Lee Courtliff
54 Posted 08/10/2011 at 22:19:38
54 Posted 08/10/2011 at 22:19:38
Brian Hill *48 - I am in the same boat as you mate.
I don't live anywhere near as far away as you do but the reason i come on TW is exactly the same as yours.
None of my friends or workmates or even people in my local are Everton fans. I only have my Dad to talk to about Everton and i don't see him all that much these days.
Due to work commitments i hardly get to goodison anymore. I haven't had a season ticket in 10 years.
Although i do disagree with a lot of the people on here,and to be honest i think some of them are just miserable twats,without TW i would be almost entirely without conversation about our club. i don't post on here all that often compared to some but i read TW everyday and would be a bit lost without it.
By the way,with regard to the debate between Ian and Michael.i have to disagree with you. I am leaning more towards Ian and his opinions. But i do also agree with some of the points Michael has made.
I wish i had TW when i lived in Thailand. Now that was a long way from Goodison.
I don't live anywhere near as far away as you do but the reason i come on TW is exactly the same as yours.
None of my friends or workmates or even people in my local are Everton fans. I only have my Dad to talk to about Everton and i don't see him all that much these days.
Due to work commitments i hardly get to goodison anymore. I haven't had a season ticket in 10 years.
Although i do disagree with a lot of the people on here,and to be honest i think some of them are just miserable twats,without TW i would be almost entirely without conversation about our club. i don't post on here all that often compared to some but i read TW everyday and would be a bit lost without it.
By the way,with regard to the debate between Ian and Michael.i have to disagree with you. I am leaning more towards Ian and his opinions. But i do also agree with some of the points Michael has made.
I wish i had TW when i lived in Thailand. Now that was a long way from Goodison.
Brendan McLaughlin
55 Posted 08/10/2011 at 23:03:00
55 Posted 08/10/2011 at 23:03:00
Lee #54
That is the point exactly. We are Everton supporters...so why some fans take delight in tearing strips of fans that take a different tack..I just don't get it!
That is the point exactly. We are Everton supporters...so why some fans take delight in tearing strips of fans that take a different tack..I just don't get it!
Sam Morrison
56 Posted 08/10/2011 at 23:30:30
56 Posted 08/10/2011 at 23:30:30
TW is great but God am I bored of Michael saying people don't accept criticism of Moyes. Celebrate the shades of grey, MK, you're the reason we're here!
Lee Courtliff
57 Posted 08/10/2011 at 23:16:38
57 Posted 08/10/2011 at 23:16:38
I don't either Brendan.
But i have been guilty of insulting people when they come out with,what i believe to be, utter shit.
Much to my shame. You should never resort to name calling,especially online. Very childish.
But i have been guilty of insulting people when they come out with,what i believe to be, utter shit.
Much to my shame. You should never resort to name calling,especially online. Very childish.
Brendan McLaughlin
58 Posted 08/10/2011 at 23:40:14
58 Posted 08/10/2011 at 23:40:14
Lee #57
Nothing wrong with insulting people..as long as its Andy, Brian, Trevor et al..
Nothing wrong with insulting people..as long as its Andy, Brian, Trevor et al..
Phil Bellis
59 Posted 09/10/2011 at 00:49:56
59 Posted 09/10/2011 at 00:49:56
Ian - I wish I was a sure of anything as you are of everything
"It's by playing games and gaining experience that you improve and get fitter and more confidence in your game.."
Bollocks!
I was totally right-footed until I reached "big school" where the Jesuit-Everton fanatics would not countenance a one-footed footballer
They coached me, cajoled me and smacked me around the head until I was as competent with both feet as Bobby Charlton (ask your dad)
You must be an exceptional talent, thick or have a very poor coach if you can't have your skills improved, or even self-improved above a basic fitness level
Did you ever read what weak headers do to improve their heading skills? Have you ever played keepy-up with a tennis ball? Kids today - pshhhww!
"It's by playing games and gaining experience that you improve and get fitter and more confidence in your game.."
Bollocks!
I was totally right-footed until I reached "big school" where the Jesuit-Everton fanatics would not countenance a one-footed footballer
They coached me, cajoled me and smacked me around the head until I was as competent with both feet as Bobby Charlton (ask your dad)
You must be an exceptional talent, thick or have a very poor coach if you can't have your skills improved, or even self-improved above a basic fitness level
Did you ever read what weak headers do to improve their heading skills? Have you ever played keepy-up with a tennis ball? Kids today - pshhhww!
Stewart Littler
60 Posted 08/10/2011 at 20:15:11
60 Posted 08/10/2011 at 20:15:11
Ian, whilst I am of the thinking that moyes' positives outweigh his negatives, your post #47 surely begs the question, well why doesn't heitinga get a look in?, and kinda reinforces the favourites argument, doesn't it?
Denis Richardson
61 Posted 09/10/2011 at 09:48:40
61 Posted 09/10/2011 at 09:48:40
Ian @53, it was in Dec 2010 and on the bench were; Saha, Beckford, Yak, Baxter - all fit. West Ham were almost bottom, having an awful season and were extremely low on confidence.
Even the press were surprised the our manager had chosen to start a match against a team in such a position, without a recognised striker.
Finished in a draw I believe....
Big Vic was injured at the time I think.
Billy was subbed on in th 95th minute for his usual work permit appearance.
Even the press were surprised the our manager had chosen to start a match against a team in such a position, without a recognised striker.
Finished in a draw I believe....
Big Vic was injured at the time I think.
Billy was subbed on in th 95th minute for his usual work permit appearance.
Ian Tunstead
62 Posted 09/10/2011 at 11:44:25
62 Posted 09/10/2011 at 11:44:25
Phil, I see what you are saying, but the point I am trying to make is that coaching can usually only make relatively small improvements, it mostly boils down to practice, otherwise our coaching staff would be able to coach everyone to be as good as Rooney.
It's the nature vs nurture argument. I am sure coaching has improved Usain Bolt as a sprinter, but it's down to the fact he was born with a natural ability. If I was coached along with Usain and trained as hard, that does not mean I could become the world's fastest man.
Moyes and his coaching staff can develop the players so far but in the end, if they don't have the natural-born talent, he can not make his players world beaters.
It's the nature vs nurture argument. I am sure coaching has improved Usain Bolt as a sprinter, but it's down to the fact he was born with a natural ability. If I was coached along with Usain and trained as hard, that does not mean I could become the world's fastest man.
Moyes and his coaching staff can develop the players so far but in the end, if they don't have the natural-born talent, he can not make his players world beaters.
Ian Tunstead
63 Posted 09/10/2011 at 11:57:11
63 Posted 09/10/2011 at 11:57:11
Stewart, I agree, maybe it is time Heitinga got a look-in; I can only asume Moyes rates Jaggs as a better defender overall.
Denis, as I say Saha was probably injured in some way, Yak had given up trying, Beckford couldn't hold the ball up and just gave it back to the opposition, and Moyes probably didn't trust/rate Baxter.
But I am not saying Moyes is perfect and that he gets it right all of the time, you can look at an individaul game if you want but I like to look at the outcome over the course of a season, and in comparison to other teams, Moyes tends to get it right more than he gets it wrong.
Denis, as I say Saha was probably injured in some way, Yak had given up trying, Beckford couldn't hold the ball up and just gave it back to the opposition, and Moyes probably didn't trust/rate Baxter.
But I am not saying Moyes is perfect and that he gets it right all of the time, you can look at an individaul game if you want but I like to look at the outcome over the course of a season, and in comparison to other teams, Moyes tends to get it right more than he gets it wrong.
Denis Richardson
64 Posted 09/10/2011 at 14:31:12
64 Posted 09/10/2011 at 14:31:12
Ian, I also look at the overall picture but my question was simply this, when we play a team that is not one of the top teams and start without a recognised striker, what is your feeling?
Do you think this is overrly cautious if we have fit strikers or are you in the 'will go with the manager's choice' regardless camp?
Again, I would just like to know how you feel. We have pllayed without a recognised striker many times so dont have to dwell on that game agains WH.
Do you think this is overrly cautious if we have fit strikers or are you in the 'will go with the manager's choice' regardless camp?
Again, I would just like to know how you feel. We have pllayed without a recognised striker many times so dont have to dwell on that game agains WH.
Jon Cox
65 Posted 09/10/2011 at 12:31:35
65 Posted 09/10/2011 at 12:31:35
Might have said this before, but the negativity of the recent few seasons has to be the direct consequence of David Moyes's psychological make up, and his personality fingerprinted on the team.
Sure money comes into the equation but we didn't have that much when qualifying for Europe as we did. What we did have in abundance was team spirit and a will to win. This spirit and will for me has sadly ebbed away these last few seasons.
Question for Ian. Do you think Andy Johnson is enjoying his football more, or less, than when he was at Everton?
Strikers running the channels? Isn't that what wingers are paid for?
Nah, it's his whole "pinch a point" ethos that disheartens me.
As for 0.02% "I am Sparctacus"
Sure money comes into the equation but we didn't have that much when qualifying for Europe as we did. What we did have in abundance was team spirit and a will to win. This spirit and will for me has sadly ebbed away these last few seasons.
Question for Ian. Do you think Andy Johnson is enjoying his football more, or less, than when he was at Everton?
Strikers running the channels? Isn't that what wingers are paid for?
Nah, it's his whole "pinch a point" ethos that disheartens me.
As for 0.02% "I am Sparctacus"
Ian Tunstead
66 Posted 09/10/2011 at 17:17:52
66 Posted 09/10/2011 at 17:17:52
Denis, as i say it is best for me to discuss this season as it is more fresh in the memory, but in answer to your question when we played wigan with Tim Cahill as the lone striker my thoughts were that Saha was not match fit, Vellios is a rellatively unknown quantity and strac is both not match fit and an unkown quantity.
I trust Moyes to pick the team to get the result. He obviosly has more insight than ourselves as he sees the players in training on a daily basis so maybe Cahill scores more goals in training than the strikers or maybe he looks sharper and contributes more.
I felt it was the right decision to play his tried and trusted players and then bring on the players who were not match fit against the tired legs of the opposition so they would have more of an impact and it worked so the right decision was made in my opinion.
Jon i think AJ enjoyed his time at Everton more than Fulham and until his recent hat trick he hasnt exactly been pulling up trees there.
I trust Moyes to pick the team to get the result. He obviosly has more insight than ourselves as he sees the players in training on a daily basis so maybe Cahill scores more goals in training than the strikers or maybe he looks sharper and contributes more.
I felt it was the right decision to play his tried and trusted players and then bring on the players who were not match fit against the tired legs of the opposition so they would have more of an impact and it worked so the right decision was made in my opinion.
Jon i think AJ enjoyed his time at Everton more than Fulham and until his recent hat trick he hasnt exactly been pulling up trees there.
Brendan McLaughlin
67 Posted 09/10/2011 at 19:37:33
67 Posted 09/10/2011 at 19:37:33
Spartacus #65
Team sprit has ebbed away for you in the last few years. You obviously sat in an different part of the dressing room from Mikel Arteta then?
Team sprit has ebbed away for you in the last few years. You obviously sat in an different part of the dressing room from Mikel Arteta then?
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1 Posted 07/10/2011 at 14:19:26