Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Losing The Plot
By Tony Marsh :: 18/10/2011
135 Comments (»Last)
When I heard the news yesterday that the Moyesiah was about to bring back James McFadden, I had to check the calendar. It can't be April 1st already, can it? As they say in Yorkshire, David Moyes is definitely Limp Under The Cap.
How the fuck has that buffoon Kenwright allowed such a ridiculous signing to take place? How can a man who says he is Everton's number one fan allow his manager to do such a thing? Are these two out to heap more misery on us all or what?
What must Moyes have said to convince BK this was a good move?
Moyes: "Listen, Bill, I'm thinking of bringing back James McFadden."
Kenwright: "Why, Dave? ? give me a few good reasons why we should?"
DM: "Erm... well, he's Scottish. Erm... he's got a similar hairline to Rooney ? oh and he's got a good-sounding Scouse name: Jimmy Mac.. They could even sing 'Jimmy, Oh Jimmy Mac, why did they bring you back?'"
BK: "What about football ? can he still play at this level?"
DM: "Well, it does'nae really matter because I won't play him ? it's just a little something for the fans. It's like a new signing. More smoke and mirrors, Bill."
BK: "That's good enough for me ? sign the lad up then."
These two want flogging in public, they really do... If Saturday's pitiful attempt at playing top-level football wasn't bad enough, now this McFadden nonsense... Is there anyone out there who can defend this signing?
Back to Saturday's pathetic debacle ? why are Hibbert and Osman still playing Premier League football? Is there another club in the League that would sign either of these two?
When Chelsea beat us at Wembley three years ago, I thought that was the last we would see of this pair. Both of them got ragged to death in that game by some of the same players they faced on Saturday. Three years older and three years slower, Dumb and Dumber are still first choices in Moyes's side... WHY?
Moyes hasn't a clue about top flight football these days, its' leaving him behind. 2004-05 was the year Moyes reached his peak and since then its been horrific to be an Evertonian apart from the odd victory here and there.
I remember after we got spanked at home 4-0 by Bolton a couple of years back, Kenwright telling a few of us at the game that he would never sack Moyes even if we got relegated. Well, he has stuck by him since then and, if we do go down, we will be stuck with Moyes forever.
What will happen to us if the TV rights proposals become reality? Who the hell would pay Everton to broadcast our games? Moyes as manager playing Prehistoric Hoofball with McFadden as a lone striker... We will be skint in months.
I am sick to death of hearing this "we've got no money that's why we lose games..." Fucking nonsense. Yes, we have less money than the big clubs... but even the promoted clubs have a better go at teams than us, Norwich and Swansea haven't spent money since they came up but they at least have a go, FFS.
Remember when Joe Royle's side went to Elland Road in the FA Cup Semi-Final in 1995? Spurs only had to turn up and they would play Man Utd in the final. Barmby, Sheringham, and one of the top strikers around at the time, Jurgen Klinsman were going to murder us like they did to Liverpool at Anfield in the Quarter-Finals. The Dream Team from London would play in the Dream Final...
We had a team of work horses and 'get stuck in' merchants: Horne, Stuart, Rideout, Ablett etc ? hardly glamour boys but they had belief and spirit and a will to win and we went on to thrash Spurs 4-1 in the most one-sided semi-finals ever. We played some good stuff but it was the spirit of the side that did it that day. Never say die... never lay down. Win at all cost.
That's what Joe did ? he made his players believe in him and themselves. Something Moyes will never do. Now I know time has moved on since then but the concept is just the same: Go out, get stuck in, and try to win the game. Play strikers and try to score goals.... Goals, Beautiful Goals.
The opposing players may be on bigger wages than our lads and they will have cost more to sign but so what? It's eleven v eleven and no fear should be shown. Moyes puts his players down while bigging up the other side...
If ever a man could drain your self confidence as a player, it has to be Deadly Dave. He has ruined every striker he has come across at this club and his treatment of some players is a disgrace. Why the fuck some fans sing his name is beyond me. Moyes is killing us season by season.
Kenwright is the man at the helm: he won't sack Moyes; Moyes will never change or learn from past mistakes... so what the fuck can we do?
Jimmy, Oh Jimmy Mac, Why did they bring you back???
Reader Comments (135)
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Tom Winek
2 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:22:44
2 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:22:44
Here we go again. The prophet of doom. You can accuse Moyes of a lot of things but you must've been burying your head in the sand over the last seven years if you think his players don't get stuck in, don't fight for him and the team, and don't believe in themselves.
You can't argue he doesn't produce results year after year. Okay, we haven't covered ourselves in glory in the few weeks but before these games we were up there. Moyes goes means relegation.
You can't argue he doesn't produce results year after year. Okay, we haven't covered ourselves in glory in the few weeks but before these games we were up there. Moyes goes means relegation.
David Bridge
4 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:38:14
4 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:38:14
Tom Winek - Moyes stays means relegation if he goes we have a chance, we are crying out for change
Andrew Laird
5 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:44:34
5 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:44:34
Tom Winek "Moyes goes means relegation."
Totally unfounded bullshit of the highest order; you Sir are talking out of your arse.
Totally unfounded bullshit of the highest order; you Sir are talking out of your arse.
Dennis Stevens
6 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:45:39
6 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:45:39
I recall a few months or so ago there was quite an outcry at the mere speculation that Moyes may have considered signing Ball as cover for Baines, yet that would have made far more sense than re-signing McFadden, imo.
Tom Winek
7 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:46:50
7 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:46:50
David I don't think so. I think he'll turn it around. He always does depending on what you expect from the season. My expectations are pretty low. We don't deserve any more. You need to invest and we've invested nothing in three years or more.
Kevin Hudson
8 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:59:57
8 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:59:57
Move along folks, nothing new or original to see here.
Robert Penlington
9 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:01:00
9 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:01:00
Alan Clarke:
Next time I'm sat inside Goodison I will check under my seat for the flux capacitor and see if I can set the date to 1985 or 1966.
Sorry to inform you mate but the flux capacitors were sold off to Kitbag.
Next time I'm sat inside Goodison I will check under my seat for the flux capacitor and see if I can set the date to 1985 or 1966.
Sorry to inform you mate but the flux capacitors were sold off to Kitbag.
Tom Winek
10 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:53:03
10 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:53:03
Andrew everyone who posts a message on this forum is speculating. You're speculating the opposite to me which is fair enough but a lot of people on this website seem to think the answer to our problems is simple. Just get rid of moyes.
Ian Edwards
11 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:12:41
11 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:12:41
Kevin Hudson
Are you referring to the article or Moyes tactics, team selections and substutions?
Surely the latter.
Are you referring to the article or Moyes tactics, team selections and substutions?
Surely the latter.
Brendan McLaughlin
12 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:07:27
12 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:07:27
Here's what I don't understand..should Moyes take what he can get and get on with it or spit the dummy a la Tevez and complain like a whinging bitch? Don't know him that well but I know what I think he should do!
Ian Edwards
13 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:17:57
13 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:17:57
Brendan
Moyes has bigged up the opposition/their players/their finance before the last 3 games.
No doubt on saturday he will say how much more the Michael Jackson statute cost compared with our Dixie statue.
Moyes has bigged up the opposition/their players/their finance before the last 3 games.
No doubt on saturday he will say how much more the Michael Jackson statute cost compared with our Dixie statue.
Brendan McLaughlin
14 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:23:11
14 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:23:11
Ian #12
If you were a player would it make you give any less..unless of course you were just a keyboard warrior?
If you were a player would it make you give any less..unless of course you were just a keyboard warrior?
Andrew Laird
15 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:17:14
15 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:17:14
No Tom, I am not speculating anything.
Saying that we "WILL be relegated" without Moyes as manager is completey unfounded and has NO basis whatsoever, unless of course you have a time machine?....
This type of fear induced nonsense is a problem with many supporters who perhaps also think that ONLY Moyes in the entire world of football would have his record over the last ten years and that NOBODY could have bettered it?
Saying that we "WILL be relegated" without Moyes as manager is completey unfounded and has NO basis whatsoever, unless of course you have a time machine?....
This type of fear induced nonsense is a problem with many supporters who perhaps also think that ONLY Moyes in the entire world of football would have his record over the last ten years and that NOBODY could have bettered it?
Ian Edwards
16 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:32:51
16 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:32:51
Brendan
Moyes attitude and comments made it clear to the players that we had no chance of winning so there was no pressure on them to try and win... and try they did not.
Moyes attitude and comments made it clear to the players that we had no chance of winning so there was no pressure on them to try and win... and try they did not.
Kevin Hudson
17 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:16:18
17 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:16:18
I'm quite obviously referring to Marsh's topical, yet regurgitated gloom, Ian.
Illustrated this time by such pearlers as:
Moyes & Kenwright - "They want flogging in public those two. They really do."
He also claims that since 2005, despite the FIVE top 8 finishes, European football, the League Cup Semi & the FA Cup final, it has been " horrific to be an Evertonian," - apart from the "odd victory here and there."
Such obviously selective crap prompted by a defeat to one of Europe's top club's and the "scandalous," acquisition of a free transfer.
Illustrated this time by such pearlers as:
Moyes & Kenwright - "They want flogging in public those two. They really do."
He also claims that since 2005, despite the FIVE top 8 finishes, European football, the League Cup Semi & the FA Cup final, it has been " horrific to be an Evertonian," - apart from the "odd victory here and there."
Such obviously selective crap prompted by a defeat to one of Europe's top club's and the "scandalous," acquisition of a free transfer.
Ian Edwards
18 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:40:19
18 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:40:19
Kevin
Whats the point of getting to a cup final if you dont put a forward on when losing... or qualifying for europe and then bottling it tactically.
Whats the point of getting to a cup final if you dont put a forward on when losing... or qualifying for europe and then bottling it tactically.
Kevin Hudson
19 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:44:52
19 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:44:52
So we lost the final - it happens.James Vaughan came on as a sub when we were losing, followed by Gosling.
"Tactically bottling it in Europe," is mere supposition on your part.
"Tactically bottling it in Europe," is mere supposition on your part.
Brendan McLaughlin
20 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:43:35
20 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:43:35
Ian #15
Still haven't answered the question...what would YOU do? Would you play seriously play par just to fit in with a managers game plan...NSNO & all that?
Still haven't answered the question...what would YOU do? Would you play seriously play par just to fit in with a managers game plan...NSNO & all that?
Wayne Smyth
21 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:09:08
21 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:09:08
Tom, we don't deserve any more? Really? Our squad deserves to be 1 pt off relegation? We deserve to lose to QPR at home and our squad isn't good enough to do anything but get battered at blackburn? Really?
Wow.
I think if you add up the value of the money we've spent on transfers & wages(including the £3M / season we pay Moyes), we deserve a lot bloody better than we are getting. I'm sick to death of people wheeling out the old "moyes hasn't had any money" argument. We probably spend more on wages than many of the teams who consistently out-football us.
Regardless of how we compete(or dont) against Chelsea, City or the RS, we should be capable of doing far better than we have vs the rest of the teams in the premier league.
Moyes is a limited manager who was the right man for the job 10 years ago. He is meant to be our leader and our visionary and the man who should be giving this club direction.
Unfortunately he doesn't appear to have the stomach for the job anymore. In 10 years he has shown himself singularly unable to adapt his "tactics" past very stale 4-5-1 no matter the opposition and more importantly his language recently is far too defeatist for my liking; the club needs new leadership.
We need someone to come in like David did 10 years ago and give the club and the players the kick up the backside they need. We need someone to instil belief & confidence in our squad and make them believe we can go out there and play any premier league team without fear.
We need someone to come in willing to play our players in their correct positions and make good use of our great youth setup to rejuvenate the squad on what money we do have.
There are managers out there(especially in foreign leagues) who are able to compete on a limited budget without resorting to 10 men behind the ball in almost every match and playing defenders in midfield.
The worst thing is that Moyes probably has the most secure job in the premier league given that Kenwright would be mad to get rid of the guy who is under no pressure to succeed, provided he doesn't create a fuss. They have a symbiotic relationship that is fast becoming cancerous to this clubs future.
Wow.
I think if you add up the value of the money we've spent on transfers & wages(including the £3M / season we pay Moyes), we deserve a lot bloody better than we are getting. I'm sick to death of people wheeling out the old "moyes hasn't had any money" argument. We probably spend more on wages than many of the teams who consistently out-football us.
Regardless of how we compete(or dont) against Chelsea, City or the RS, we should be capable of doing far better than we have vs the rest of the teams in the premier league.
Moyes is a limited manager who was the right man for the job 10 years ago. He is meant to be our leader and our visionary and the man who should be giving this club direction.
Unfortunately he doesn't appear to have the stomach for the job anymore. In 10 years he has shown himself singularly unable to adapt his "tactics" past very stale 4-5-1 no matter the opposition and more importantly his language recently is far too defeatist for my liking; the club needs new leadership.
We need someone to come in like David did 10 years ago and give the club and the players the kick up the backside they need. We need someone to instil belief & confidence in our squad and make them believe we can go out there and play any premier league team without fear.
We need someone to come in willing to play our players in their correct positions and make good use of our great youth setup to rejuvenate the squad on what money we do have.
There are managers out there(especially in foreign leagues) who are able to compete on a limited budget without resorting to 10 men behind the ball in almost every match and playing defenders in midfield.
The worst thing is that Moyes probably has the most secure job in the premier league given that Kenwright would be mad to get rid of the guy who is under no pressure to succeed, provided he doesn't create a fuss. They have a symbiotic relationship that is fast becoming cancerous to this clubs future.
Ian Edwards
22 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:51:04
22 Posted 18/10/2011 at 22:51:04
Brendan
If you have two up front then you have more chance of scoring than if you only have one. I would also play players in their correct positions.
I wouldnt talk up the opposition before each game
I wouldnt take a forward off when losing and put a defender on.
I would tell the players to pass to a team mate and move into space to potentially receive the ball again.
I wouldnt continually pick players who shouldnt be in the team on form: Hibbert (player of the month a joke), Osman, Jagielka and Cahill.
I would try and beat Liverpool at Anfield.
I could go on for hours going over Moyes faults buts its getting late and realising how bad our Manager is is totally depressing me.
If you have two up front then you have more chance of scoring than if you only have one. I would also play players in their correct positions.
I wouldnt talk up the opposition before each game
I wouldnt take a forward off when losing and put a defender on.
I would tell the players to pass to a team mate and move into space to potentially receive the ball again.
I wouldnt continually pick players who shouldnt be in the team on form: Hibbert (player of the month a joke), Osman, Jagielka and Cahill.
I would try and beat Liverpool at Anfield.
I could go on for hours going over Moyes faults buts its getting late and realising how bad our Manager is is totally depressing me.
Brendan McLaughlin
23 Posted 18/10/2011 at 23:00:11
23 Posted 18/10/2011 at 23:00:11
Ian #21
If you have two up front you have more chance of scoring...yeah it really is that simple, ain't it?
If you have two up front you have more chance of scoring...yeah it really is that simple, ain't it?
Dennis Stevens
24 Posted 18/10/2011 at 23:26:18
24 Posted 18/10/2011 at 23:26:18
'"Tactically bottling it in Europe," is mere supposition on your part.' - A ridiculous comment, Kevin. Did you not watch the match against Sporting Lisbon?
Trevor Mackie
25 Posted 18/10/2011 at 23:32:49
25 Posted 18/10/2011 at 23:32:49
Moyes fear has contributed hugely to the downward spiral of this club, perusing the last 2 seasons results I reckon a minimum of 9 points per year.
The "unusual ones" will say "no, no we'll get relegated if we attack".
Ignoring the guarantee of relegation nonsense lets say they're right and say a change cost us 9 points instead...we would have dropped one or two league places in those seasons.
On the other hand if it worked with a prevailing goal difference - we'd have qualified for the Champions League via 4th each season.
What a thought - is it worth trying? - should we put Everton above Moyes?
I doubt it.
The "unusual ones" will say "no, no we'll get relegated if we attack".
Ignoring the guarantee of relegation nonsense lets say they're right and say a change cost us 9 points instead...we would have dropped one or two league places in those seasons.
On the other hand if it worked with a prevailing goal difference - we'd have qualified for the Champions League via 4th each season.
What a thought - is it worth trying? - should we put Everton above Moyes?
I doubt it.
Kevin Hudson
26 Posted 18/10/2011 at 23:55:07
26 Posted 18/10/2011 at 23:55:07
Dennis,
Did Moyes "bottle it," when we won away games against Kharkiv, Nuremburg, Alkmaar, Brann, BATE, or AEK Athens?
Did we bottle it at home when we despatched Larissa, Zenit, Brann (6-1) or enjoyed 4-0 wins at Goodison over Sigma & AEK?
Is it not a "ridiculous comment" for you to sum up an entire philosophy from just one game, conveniently & deliberately ignoring the many European wins under his charge?
Did Moyes "bottle it," when we won away games against Kharkiv, Nuremburg, Alkmaar, Brann, BATE, or AEK Athens?
Did we bottle it at home when we despatched Larissa, Zenit, Brann (6-1) or enjoyed 4-0 wins at Goodison over Sigma & AEK?
Is it not a "ridiculous comment" for you to sum up an entire philosophy from just one game, conveniently & deliberately ignoring the many European wins under his charge?
Russell Buckley
27 Posted 19/10/2011 at 02:52:29
27 Posted 19/10/2011 at 02:52:29
Classic comment that
Robbie Shields
28 Posted 19/10/2011 at 03:05:18
28 Posted 19/10/2011 at 03:05:18
Kevin #25, you are the classic supporter who only EVER sees the results not the performance. Our performances in Europe were embarrassing, even the ones we won!!! I went to Nurnburg and had the time of my life with my fellow blues, but the game itself was shite. Nurnburg were aweful and we were just as bad (Nurnburg got relagated that year BTW), we got a penalty from one piece of great work by Arteta and then Anichebe (Before being destroyed as a winger or on his own up front, by Moyes) scored a cracking second.
I also went to Fiorentina, again a great trip with my fellow blues only spoiled by that git, the crap formation, tactics and again performance. That time the home team could actually play a little and battered us, missing hat fulls of chances before scoring 2 late on, what did Moyes do???? FUCK ALL.
Under Moyes our footy has been SHITE, he has won lots of games 1-0 and drawn lots too due to good fortune and weak opposition. If you like stats so much here are some for you.
NO WINS AWAY AGAINST CHELSEA, LIVERPOOL, ARSENAL OR UNITED IN 10 YEARS!!!!!!!!!
ARSENAL 7 EFC 1
EFC 0 ARSENAL 6
BENFICA 5 EFC 0
BUCAHREST 6 EFC 1
EFC 0 WEST BROM 4
Now you can list some of our thumping wins, go ahead!!!!!!!!!
He did his job 8 years ago, thanks and goodbye.
MOYES OUT
I also went to Fiorentina, again a great trip with my fellow blues only spoiled by that git, the crap formation, tactics and again performance. That time the home team could actually play a little and battered us, missing hat fulls of chances before scoring 2 late on, what did Moyes do???? FUCK ALL.
Under Moyes our footy has been SHITE, he has won lots of games 1-0 and drawn lots too due to good fortune and weak opposition. If you like stats so much here are some for you.
NO WINS AWAY AGAINST CHELSEA, LIVERPOOL, ARSENAL OR UNITED IN 10 YEARS!!!!!!!!!
ARSENAL 7 EFC 1
EFC 0 ARSENAL 6
BENFICA 5 EFC 0
BUCAHREST 6 EFC 1
EFC 0 WEST BROM 4
Now you can list some of our thumping wins, go ahead!!!!!!!!!
He did his job 8 years ago, thanks and goodbye.
MOYES OUT
Roman Sidey
29 Posted 19/10/2011 at 03:54:21
29 Posted 19/10/2011 at 03:54:21
Kevin Hudson, where to begin?
So in Moyes time, you listed European football, CARLING CUP semi-final, and the FA Cup Final as achievements!!!
1. EUFA Cup/Europa League - BFD. No one cares about that competition, and it doesn't generate enough revenue for clubs our size to be viable. Additionally, our only credible win in all the seasons we were playing in that comp was against Zenit. How did we lose to Villareal that year? They play in Spain, aren't Barca or Real, therefore have a fuckload less money than what we had at the time. Did you actually read the list of teams you said we beat? Fucking hell. Did you hear Australia beat Oman a week ago? Holger Osieck must be some sort of tactical and motivational pioneer.
2. CARLING CUP semi-final. You mean the comp where all the good teams play their kids? You mean the comp that Birmingham won in a year when they got relegated? Did you actually watch those 2 games against Chelsea in the semi?
3. FA Cup Semi Final. You mean the final when we basically started the game with a 1 goal handicap thanks to King, which we ended up losing? You mean the game when Moyes allowed his charges to get beat by goals that Drogba and Lampard would hardly remember scoring due to their mundane nature? You mean the game to which Moyes answer was James Vaughan, A.K.A, the single worst/inexperienced striker we had at that time?
So in Moyes time, you listed European football, CARLING CUP semi-final, and the FA Cup Final as achievements!!!
1. EUFA Cup/Europa League - BFD. No one cares about that competition, and it doesn't generate enough revenue for clubs our size to be viable. Additionally, our only credible win in all the seasons we were playing in that comp was against Zenit. How did we lose to Villareal that year? They play in Spain, aren't Barca or Real, therefore have a fuckload less money than what we had at the time. Did you actually read the list of teams you said we beat? Fucking hell. Did you hear Australia beat Oman a week ago? Holger Osieck must be some sort of tactical and motivational pioneer.
2. CARLING CUP semi-final. You mean the comp where all the good teams play their kids? You mean the comp that Birmingham won in a year when they got relegated? Did you actually watch those 2 games against Chelsea in the semi?
3. FA Cup Semi Final. You mean the final when we basically started the game with a 1 goal handicap thanks to King, which we ended up losing? You mean the game when Moyes allowed his charges to get beat by goals that Drogba and Lampard would hardly remember scoring due to their mundane nature? You mean the game to which Moyes answer was James Vaughan, A.K.A, the single worst/inexperienced striker we had at that time?
Derek Thomas
30 Posted 19/10/2011 at 05:53:06
30 Posted 19/10/2011 at 05:53:06
If you agree with Marshy's basic premise just write 0.02% in the comment box
All others just copy and paste the Ian Tunstead et al shite.
Me= 0.02%
All others just copy and paste the Ian Tunstead et al shite.
Me= 0.02%
Robbie Shields
31 Posted 19/10/2011 at 08:15:48
31 Posted 19/10/2011 at 08:15:48
I am the 0.02%, haha
Ian Bennett
32 Posted 19/10/2011 at 09:18:52
32 Posted 19/10/2011 at 09:18:52
Roman 28 ? what are you expecting. Champions League finals and Premier League titles? Get real.
Villarreal were a pretty decent team that season if you fancy taking a look at how well they did in the Champions League, getting to the semis, whilst the cup runs were long overdue. It was unfortunate that we played United in the semi, as I think we were done after that game... coming up against a decent Chelsea team that had more experience in the tank of winning things after a fairly poor campaign...
A mark of a good season for a team without endless millions is getting into Europe, being around the top 4, and getting to the latter stages of cup competitions.
We have done poor in cups under Moyes with some awful defeats to some poor sides, and we could have threatened a bit more on the top 4s than we have done ? I accept that, together with the brand of football is no Barcelona. However, using the above he has done pretty well and why, he has lasted for over 9 years and has had Manager of the Year 3 times.
He might have run out of puff and can be accused of going stale. It comes down to are you going to give him time to rebuild the team or fire him off.
Villarreal were a pretty decent team that season if you fancy taking a look at how well they did in the Champions League, getting to the semis, whilst the cup runs were long overdue. It was unfortunate that we played United in the semi, as I think we were done after that game... coming up against a decent Chelsea team that had more experience in the tank of winning things after a fairly poor campaign...
A mark of a good season for a team without endless millions is getting into Europe, being around the top 4, and getting to the latter stages of cup competitions.
We have done poor in cups under Moyes with some awful defeats to some poor sides, and we could have threatened a bit more on the top 4s than we have done ? I accept that, together with the brand of football is no Barcelona. However, using the above he has done pretty well and why, he has lasted for over 9 years and has had Manager of the Year 3 times.
He might have run out of puff and can be accused of going stale. It comes down to are you going to give him time to rebuild the team or fire him off.
Trevor Mackie
33 Posted 19/10/2011 at 09:44:52
33 Posted 19/10/2011 at 09:44:52
0.02%
I'm spartacus
I'm spartacus
Peter Laing
34 Posted 19/10/2011 at 09:39:41
34 Posted 19/10/2011 at 09:39:41
The trouble for David Moyes as I see it is that the team have developed a nasty habit over the past two seasons of being incapable of maintaining a clean sheet.
Much of David Moyes's early success was based upon the premise of keeping it tight, frustrating the option, employing the holding midfielder consistently and effectively. With Plan A no longer working we are now bereft of an alternatice strategy or a plan B. Without the coaching and reluctance to set the team up with the mentality to attack, we will continue to roll over and take a spanking from teams such as Manchester City, Liverpool and Chelsea, whilst the likes of Blackburn et al will think to themselves: "Let's have a go at Everton, they are like a collander at the back and haven't got an arl-arse or two in the side who will put their foot in."
Much of David Moyes's early success was based upon the premise of keeping it tight, frustrating the option, employing the holding midfielder consistently and effectively. With Plan A no longer working we are now bereft of an alternatice strategy or a plan B. Without the coaching and reluctance to set the team up with the mentality to attack, we will continue to roll over and take a spanking from teams such as Manchester City, Liverpool and Chelsea, whilst the likes of Blackburn et al will think to themselves: "Let's have a go at Everton, they are like a collander at the back and haven't got an arl-arse or two in the side who will put their foot in."
Kevin Hudson
35 Posted 19/10/2011 at 10:28:50
35 Posted 19/10/2011 at 10:28:50
Robbie & Roman,
I agree. I am that "classic supporter," who judges a manager by his results. Indeed, I'm very "selective," like that. If I happen to be entertained in the process - all the better.
What you are saying, Robbie, is that regardless if we win or not, you'll still gripe over "the performance," as though football is such an easy game, and the players should turn it on, without fail, every time. You're the type of supporter who will moan regardless of the result.
If you want guaranteed entertainment, visit an amusement park. If you want to appreciate beauty, visit an art gallery.
For both of you disparaging the UEFA Cup opposition, claiming that all these teams were shit, does it not stand to reason that they were, at the time, amongst the best teams' in their respective countries? Or had been playing well to reach the competition in the first place? What are you saying? That if these teams were shit on the night, it doesn't count? Some sides beat us, heavily. It happens. What did you expect? That we'd sweep aside all comers like it's that simple?
Under Moyes we've lost a fair few, but we have won more: 182 wins to 142 losses. Moyes' managerial stats, which don't sit comfortably among his dissenters, state that he's won 43% of his games in charge.
His record at Everton statistically surpasses that of Smith, Walker, Kendall (spells: 2 & 3) & Royle. You have to go back to Colin Harvey (87-90) to find an (only slightly better) win ratio.
Both of your fickle, easily-dismissable arguments centre around perception, rather that product: Style over substance. The facts seemingly inconvenient to both of you.
I agree. I am that "classic supporter," who judges a manager by his results. Indeed, I'm very "selective," like that. If I happen to be entertained in the process - all the better.
What you are saying, Robbie, is that regardless if we win or not, you'll still gripe over "the performance," as though football is such an easy game, and the players should turn it on, without fail, every time. You're the type of supporter who will moan regardless of the result.
If you want guaranteed entertainment, visit an amusement park. If you want to appreciate beauty, visit an art gallery.
For both of you disparaging the UEFA Cup opposition, claiming that all these teams were shit, does it not stand to reason that they were, at the time, amongst the best teams' in their respective countries? Or had been playing well to reach the competition in the first place? What are you saying? That if these teams were shit on the night, it doesn't count? Some sides beat us, heavily. It happens. What did you expect? That we'd sweep aside all comers like it's that simple?
Under Moyes we've lost a fair few, but we have won more: 182 wins to 142 losses. Moyes' managerial stats, which don't sit comfortably among his dissenters, state that he's won 43% of his games in charge.
His record at Everton statistically surpasses that of Smith, Walker, Kendall (spells: 2 & 3) & Royle. You have to go back to Colin Harvey (87-90) to find an (only slightly better) win ratio.
Both of your fickle, easily-dismissable arguments centre around perception, rather that product: Style over substance. The facts seemingly inconvenient to both of you.
Doug Nestor
36 Posted 19/10/2011 at 12:08:56
36 Posted 19/10/2011 at 12:08:56
0.02%... I'm me... we need some new blood... it's become all too stale...
Daniel A Johnson
37 Posted 19/10/2011 at 12:24:29
37 Posted 19/10/2011 at 12:24:29
This is pointless ? Moyes is here till HE DECIDES hes had enough.
Whether that's when we're in non-league football, who knows.
I just don't get why he stays?
He's moody, down in the dumps, and as unhappy as he's ever been at EFC ? so why stay?
Our squad is aging badly and his refusal to play/blood youngsters is now his achilles heel.
Oh well... all hail the fucking Moysesiah ;-)
Whether that's when we're in non-league football, who knows.
I just don't get why he stays?
He's moody, down in the dumps, and as unhappy as he's ever been at EFC ? so why stay?
Our squad is aging badly and his refusal to play/blood youngsters is now his achilles heel.
Oh well... all hail the fucking Moysesiah ;-)
Alan Clarke
38 Posted 19/10/2011 at 12:44:40
38 Posted 19/10/2011 at 12:44:40
Daniel, the reason he stays is because he gets paid £3million a year. That makes him as big a mercenary as all the other pile of shite players at Everton. All of these bastards aren't putting in a shift but they're all happy picking up their wages whilst the rest of us dig deep into our already empty pockets to go to games and support them all. We owe Moyes and the team nothing.
If Moyes is this big man of integrity that he so loves to paint a picture of himself as then he should do the right thing and fuck off. With him he should take all his underperforming 'stars' like Fellaini, Cahill, Saha, Jagielka, Osman and Neville. That'd at least clear some debt and maybe our decent young players would be given a chance.
If Moyes is this big man of integrity that he so loves to paint a picture of himself as then he should do the right thing and fuck off. With him he should take all his underperforming 'stars' like Fellaini, Cahill, Saha, Jagielka, Osman and Neville. That'd at least clear some debt and maybe our decent young players would be given a chance.
Tony Cheek
39 Posted 19/10/2011 at 13:18:16
39 Posted 19/10/2011 at 13:18:16
Daniel...there are 3 million excuses why he stays!!
Steve Guy
40 Posted 19/10/2011 at 13:11:48
40 Posted 19/10/2011 at 13:11:48
Kevin, you have defended your point valiantly and assuming your homework is correct, there can be no denying that Moyes has been an effective manager. However, as a fan of football I, like many, want to see us play with passion and hopefully some style. I don?t always agree with Mr Marsh and sometimes he is like a stuck record; but his complaints in this particular missive about Moyes?s continuing lack of tactical flexibility, his increasingly dour approach and manner, his constant repetition of the ?we?ve no money? mantra, his unwillingness to drop players who are under-performing, is difficult to disagree with. Even last season, Tony M was typically castigated for his unremitting criticism of Moyes, but increasingly many are finding the point difficult to argue.
I would love Moyes to rip up his training manuals, get a new number two instead of the uninspiring Round, and give it a fresh go. We aren't going to win anything any time soon, so why not focus on playing to entertain? Why not let the younger players bought by Moyes come through and give the senior players something to think about? Why not have more of a go at the "bigger" teams? I don't believe doing any or all of the above would see us relegated, but it would, I am sure, put more bums on seats and give us something to cheer. It might stop the 0.02% from increasing to 0.03!
I would love Moyes to rip up his training manuals, get a new number two instead of the uninspiring Round, and give it a fresh go. We aren't going to win anything any time soon, so why not focus on playing to entertain? Why not let the younger players bought by Moyes come through and give the senior players something to think about? Why not have more of a go at the "bigger" teams? I don't believe doing any or all of the above would see us relegated, but it would, I am sure, put more bums on seats and give us something to cheer. It might stop the 0.02% from increasing to 0.03!
John Ford
41 Posted 19/10/2011 at 13:38:01
41 Posted 19/10/2011 at 13:38:01
Job done, Kevin!
It's particularly daft to criticise a manager who has been the only one amongst his peers to break the Champions League 'money club' dominance.
Moyes cannot continue with 4-5-1 because he's not been able to buy the players to continue it. We've had a strong fluid midfield which attacks and defends really well, but not any more. He should now use the new faces because the players delivering his tried and trusted formula have not been replaced or are ageing.
No-one, I believe, will criticise Moyes for using his attacking options more often and losing as a result. I actually doubt whether any 11 on the pitch will prevent us finishing above mid-table such are our problems.
The 4-5-1 has been excellent, and it's daft to assume two forwards means more goals, but he really has no choice but to change. This is risky as so many clubs appear attractive on the face of it but stall big time over a season ? tactical naivity. A failed plan B will however prove to Kenwright that money is our only way out.
It's particularly daft to criticise a manager who has been the only one amongst his peers to break the Champions League 'money club' dominance.
Moyes cannot continue with 4-5-1 because he's not been able to buy the players to continue it. We've had a strong fluid midfield which attacks and defends really well, but not any more. He should now use the new faces because the players delivering his tried and trusted formula have not been replaced or are ageing.
No-one, I believe, will criticise Moyes for using his attacking options more often and losing as a result. I actually doubt whether any 11 on the pitch will prevent us finishing above mid-table such are our problems.
The 4-5-1 has been excellent, and it's daft to assume two forwards means more goals, but he really has no choice but to change. This is risky as so many clubs appear attractive on the face of it but stall big time over a season ? tactical naivity. A failed plan B will however prove to Kenwright that money is our only way out.
Alan Clarke
42 Posted 19/10/2011 at 14:04:09
42 Posted 19/10/2011 at 14:04:09
John, it's interesting though because we played 442 for a while after Christmas last season and played well. We battered Tottenham for instance. Then a bit later on we played 451 again and had some decent performances.
I think the point is you can adjust your formation and tactics depending on the opposition. At the moment, Moyes doesn't seem willing to do this. I bet 'Arry had set his Tottenham team up to play against 451 and we took them by surprise. After we'd played 442 for a while other managers will have then been expecting us to set up like that so were then caught out when we played 451. Moyes has on occasion shown some balls and dared to venture away from his beloved 451 but when he feels our backs are against the wall he becomes more stubborn than ever and doesn't entertain any other tactic. It's becoming very very boring and it's costing us points.
I think the point is you can adjust your formation and tactics depending on the opposition. At the moment, Moyes doesn't seem willing to do this. I bet 'Arry had set his Tottenham team up to play against 451 and we took them by surprise. After we'd played 442 for a while other managers will have then been expecting us to set up like that so were then caught out when we played 451. Moyes has on occasion shown some balls and dared to venture away from his beloved 451 but when he feels our backs are against the wall he becomes more stubborn than ever and doesn't entertain any other tactic. It's becoming very very boring and it's costing us points.
Marcus Kendall
43 Posted 19/10/2011 at 14:01:51
43 Posted 19/10/2011 at 14:01:51
4-5-1 is a good formation if it has flexible forwards/wide forwards in it; we play the system all wrong as we don't play wide forwards and Cahill, who plays the Number 10 role, is as limited a footballer that I've seen in a long time.
To move forward, we need to play the likes of Drenthe and Gueye flanking Saha and bench Cahill and sell him if an appropriate bid comes in for him.
Moyes will do none of this because he is inflexible and thats why I want someone different and someone more flexible (Poyet, Lambert, Clark, Adkins etc).
To move forward, we need to play the likes of Drenthe and Gueye flanking Saha and bench Cahill and sell him if an appropriate bid comes in for him.
Moyes will do none of this because he is inflexible and thats why I want someone different and someone more flexible (Poyet, Lambert, Clark, Adkins etc).
Danny Jones
44 Posted 19/10/2011 at 12:51:51
44 Posted 19/10/2011 at 12:51:51
Everton are in a trough on and off the field, agreed. But those harbingers of doom (you never get a harbinger of anything good, do you?) need to get a little perspective. Those who believe most of our players are shite, decry Moyes as a bumbling, negative buffoon, and Kenwright as the antichrist should give their heads a collective wobble.
We have some good players, a good manager and an Evertonian as a chairman.
Admittedly, we have fewer good players than we would like, our manager is not as perfect as we would like, and our chairman is not as rich as we would like but this is the real world. Just wanting something doesn?t mean you should get it or that it is unfair that you don?t. I don?t know about anyone else but I was taught that as a child.
Gobshites used to call us bitter because we resented the fact that their behaviour robbed us of our chance to blossom in Europe. I didn?t mind being called bitter for that. Now they call us bitter because we whinge about everything from our own players, manager and chairman to refereeing decisions that went against us. That I do not like.
Time to grow up and cheer up for fuck?s sake, we might win at the weekend.
We have some good players, a good manager and an Evertonian as a chairman.
Admittedly, we have fewer good players than we would like, our manager is not as perfect as we would like, and our chairman is not as rich as we would like but this is the real world. Just wanting something doesn?t mean you should get it or that it is unfair that you don?t. I don?t know about anyone else but I was taught that as a child.
Gobshites used to call us bitter because we resented the fact that their behaviour robbed us of our chance to blossom in Europe. I didn?t mind being called bitter for that. Now they call us bitter because we whinge about everything from our own players, manager and chairman to refereeing decisions that went against us. That I do not like.
Time to grow up and cheer up for fuck?s sake, we might win at the weekend.
Kevin Hudson
45 Posted 19/10/2011 at 14:00:15
45 Posted 19/10/2011 at 14:00:15
Steve,
I don't disagree with much of what you say there, and of course Moyes shouldn't be immune from having his ethos & strategy scrutinised. Like many I thought his decision to bring Neville on at the Bridge felt like surrender.
I too find the geological pace of integrating new players into the set-up frustrating.
I just felt it appropriate to provide some context in response to the screaming negativity pervading ToffeeWeb at the minute. The sort of shrill, emotion-driven, short-sighted & unappreciative crap found on this thread alone.
When people start referring to Moyes as a "cancer," and a "mercenary," it is THEY who have "lost the plot," in my opinion.
I don't disagree with much of what you say there, and of course Moyes shouldn't be immune from having his ethos & strategy scrutinised. Like many I thought his decision to bring Neville on at the Bridge felt like surrender.
I too find the geological pace of integrating new players into the set-up frustrating.
I just felt it appropriate to provide some context in response to the screaming negativity pervading ToffeeWeb at the minute. The sort of shrill, emotion-driven, short-sighted & unappreciative crap found on this thread alone.
When people start referring to Moyes as a "cancer," and a "mercenary," it is THEY who have "lost the plot," in my opinion.
Kevin Hudson
46 Posted 19/10/2011 at 14:36:42
46 Posted 19/10/2011 at 14:36:42
John Ford,
You make some very good points there. Kenwright & the board HAVE to confront the 21st century: Our manager needs investment.
Evertonians will applaud different tactical approaches - I will be one of them. But unlike the "Armageddon Crew," Moyes has earned my trust.
You make some very good points there. Kenwright & the board HAVE to confront the 21st century: Our manager needs investment.
Evertonians will applaud different tactical approaches - I will be one of them. But unlike the "Armageddon Crew," Moyes has earned my trust.
Trevor Mackie
47 Posted 19/10/2011 at 15:08:38
47 Posted 19/10/2011 at 15:08:38
Kevin Hudson
"I too find the geological pace of integrating new players into the set-up frustrating."
Doesn't really work Kev.....just say Moyes is too slow for you.
Everyone agrees.
"I too find the geological pace of integrating new players into the set-up frustrating."
Doesn't really work Kev.....just say Moyes is too slow for you.
Everyone agrees.
Alan Clarke
48 Posted 19/10/2011 at 15:30:35
48 Posted 19/10/2011 at 15:30:35
Danny, what a load of shite.
"Just wanting something doesn?t mean you should get it or that it is unfair that you don?t"
Right so we should all just sit there and shut the fuck up? Just accept our place in the universe? Perhaps, because you were taught that as a child is the reason you've absolutely no ambition.
I was taught differently. Everton taught me differently. We used to have a good side capable of playing football so we should demand better than what's being put to us at the moment. What a small club and small time attitude you have Danny.
"Just wanting something doesn?t mean you should get it or that it is unfair that you don?t"
Right so we should all just sit there and shut the fuck up? Just accept our place in the universe? Perhaps, because you were taught that as a child is the reason you've absolutely no ambition.
I was taught differently. Everton taught me differently. We used to have a good side capable of playing football so we should demand better than what's being put to us at the moment. What a small club and small time attitude you have Danny.
Danny Jones
49 Posted 19/10/2011 at 15:53:53
49 Posted 19/10/2011 at 15:53:53
Alan #47,
I see what you have done there: from ?Just wanting something doesn?t mean you should get it or that it is unfair that you don?t? you have extrapolated that I have no ambition. This is not a logical progression and it is pure coincidence that you are correct in this case. That I?m doing quite well in life generally is down to luck rather than good judgement or ambition. Thank you for taking an interest though.
Anyone, capable of reading the implicit message in my post would understand that acceptance is not the only option and that simply having a moan is not productive. In fact, it?s a depressant in itself.
I see what you have done there: from ?Just wanting something doesn?t mean you should get it or that it is unfair that you don?t? you have extrapolated that I have no ambition. This is not a logical progression and it is pure coincidence that you are correct in this case. That I?m doing quite well in life generally is down to luck rather than good judgement or ambition. Thank you for taking an interest though.
Anyone, capable of reading the implicit message in my post would understand that acceptance is not the only option and that simply having a moan is not productive. In fact, it?s a depressant in itself.
Kevin Hudson
50 Posted 19/10/2011 at 17:09:27
50 Posted 19/10/2011 at 17:09:27
Breaking em' in gently, Trevor.
Rather than deploying inexperienced teenagers & brand-new, loan-signings from the start against the world's richest, and the UK's strongest clubs.
Reckless abandon versus nurture.
Rather than deploying inexperienced teenagers & brand-new, loan-signings from the start against the world's richest, and the UK's strongest clubs.
Reckless abandon versus nurture.
Richard Reeves
51 Posted 19/10/2011 at 16:53:21
51 Posted 19/10/2011 at 16:53:21
Tom Winek,you could of been one of those deluded fans from ten years ago who thought getting rid of Smith would meen getting relegated.Look what happened,Moyes took over and turned it around with exactly the same squad.Remember?Everyone was talking about it for a while.Just imagine what could happen with a manager that likes to attack and who has vision .I actually think we have a decent squad,small but i really think we have a lot of quallity players that could gell into a very good team as long as we had the right sort of manager and coaching staff.Don't beleve that because Moyes has managed to pull us away from relegation before after the usuall shite start to the season that it will happen again.Moyes is showing all the signs of someone taking us in one direction and if we are to escape relegation it will be tight,maybe even a return of the last day heart attack job.
Dennis Stevens
52 Posted 19/10/2011 at 17:31:54
52 Posted 19/10/2011 at 17:31:54
You only serve to undermine your own case when following one ridiculous post with another, Kevin. When we travelled to Sporting Lisbon we were taking on a team in a poor run & low in confidence. Their own supporters were expecting us to wipe the floor with them & consequently the ground was markedly less than full. Instead of asserting ourselves & seeking the away goal that would have been a great blow to the oppositions hopes, we instead handed the initiative to the opposition, allowing them to grow in confidence, & as a result ended up chasing a game that had been there for the taking. Try watching the match again & see how often our overlapping fullbacks actually venture into the opposition half. You say Moyes has earned your trust, well that was the day I felt he betrayed mine. Although I feel our Boardroom situation is of greater concern than Moyes' tenure as manager, I'm also confident we will never win a thing under this manager.
Ian Tunstead
53 Posted 19/10/2011 at 18:23:11
53 Posted 19/10/2011 at 18:23:11
Haha Thankyou Derek for bringing my name into this debate that i had nothing to do with, i must be getting under your skin when i undermine your plot to overthrow Davie Moyes. I suppose i should be honoured, I imagine it is similar to when top players visit Goodison and they get a hard time off the crowd because the crowd know he is a danger to them selves.
It must be because I have wrote every single one of your arguments off on this site and not one of the Moyes bashers have ever managed to challange my arguments or answer any of my questions that I have put to them even though I have answered everyone else?s. Anyway you keep bickering your negative shite amongst yourselves. Kevin just leave them to it, it's the same boring negative shite everytime and then Moyes writes them all off time and time again.
It must be because I have wrote every single one of your arguments off on this site and not one of the Moyes bashers have ever managed to challange my arguments or answer any of my questions that I have put to them even though I have answered everyone else?s. Anyway you keep bickering your negative shite amongst yourselves. Kevin just leave them to it, it's the same boring negative shite everytime and then Moyes writes them all off time and time again.
Andy Crooks
54 Posted 19/10/2011 at 19:12:38
54 Posted 19/10/2011 at 19:12:38
Kevin Hudson #44. Good post.
Kevin Hudson
55 Posted 19/10/2011 at 19:00:51
55 Posted 19/10/2011 at 19:00:51
By highlighting Moyes' ENTIRE managerial career & comparing it to his predecessors, I'm providing you with context, statistical evidence & facts, Dennis.
David Moyes has taken charge of 435 Everton games, yet your case against him is solely based upon ONE of those matches!
Yet I'm being ridiculous?!
Good grief - I hope you're not a barrister!
David Moyes has taken charge of 435 Everton games, yet your case against him is solely based upon ONE of those matches!
Yet I'm being ridiculous?!
Good grief - I hope you're not a barrister!
Andy Crooks
56 Posted 19/10/2011 at 19:33:21
56 Posted 19/10/2011 at 19:33:21
Ian, brilliant post (#52). I thought Richard Dodd was the best wind up on this site, but, hey, it's you. David Moyes must get you involved somehow. I'm waiting for your David Icke moment. Kevin, be fearful. Ian thinks you are with him. He'll soon want you to join him in sending "messages" to the players.
Jon Cox
57 Posted 19/10/2011 at 19:02:53
57 Posted 19/10/2011 at 19:02:53
Ian, strikes me that the only "Negative shite" is the football we've had to endure since the start of the season.
Now tell me i'm wrong.
Now tell me i'm wrong.
David Price
58 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:15:58
58 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:15:58
Well said Kevin, totally made sense. Balanced comments unlike some others posted. You actually criticise Moyes for not giving the squad players more of a go, yet get laughed at on how you scribe it.
I remember Moyes having a go once, we beat Fulham in his first game 2-1, Derby away 4-3 then lost 6-2 at Newcastle.
Best i can hope for is mid table until the magical investment, no matter who the Manager is.
I remember Moyes having a go once, we beat Fulham in his first game 2-1, Derby away 4-3 then lost 6-2 at Newcastle.
Best i can hope for is mid table until the magical investment, no matter who the Manager is.
Bobby Thomas
59 Posted 19/10/2011 at 20:09:13
59 Posted 19/10/2011 at 20:09:13
Peter Laing(33); quite right, we cant defend. Lescott and the Jag were one of the best partnerships in the league and we've never been as tight since.
Another issue is we are much nicer to play against than we were. Part of the problem last season with playing Arteta too deep was he didn't offer enough off the ball from a defensive perspective and we were too easy to play through, too nice to play against.
We all remember Carsley and Neville in mid, it was ridiculously defensive, awful to watch, but i felt we were progressing and we going forwards. For me it was pragmatic management whilst changing the squad in an effort to get up the league. It did what was required.
We were very tight at the back and won games by the odd goal with set pieces being vital. We improved the next year and it was mostly just Phil Neville in front of The Jag and Lescott. We we opened up slightly, the football improved but were still very tight. However, since the back end of the Donovan loan season, we can't defend.
For me, part of trying to progress and change the football was signing Fellaini, a ball playing, reading holding player. But for a club of out means right now, I thought it was an extravagance we couldnt afford. On a holding player for god sakes. It signalled the start of Moyes starting to do a lot less with the resources he was given. This continued with Heitinga and Billy, basically blowing the Lescott windfall.
We have also mismanaged Fellaini's contract situation and arent going to get the fee we were expecting. Someone is going to get the best of him, we havent he's just developed here.
I have nothing against Fellaini. I like him as a player, do not blame him for one moment for wanting away and think he will be a tremendous, holding european midfielder. But whilst a good player I feel it was the start of Moyes losing his eye/focus in the transfer market.
Another aspect of that is the refusal to trade and growing way too attached to some of the senior pros at the club. He has simultaneously been responsible for pushing the big contracts for players who were on occasion past their best and it would have been sensible to cash in on, Arteta, Cahill and possibly now the Jag.
He was losing some excellent established players, like Lescott and Pienaar, and was also unlucky with the injuries to Arteta, Yak and the Jag when we could have been at our best and looked like a real proposition, so I can see why he would want to retain the existing pros he had developed, but of anyone was dangling £15 mil for Arteta it should have been taken.
Also our inability to get Donovan in was a kick in the balls as we looked perfectly balanced with him. I thought we looked a great side. So why compound it by signing Billy? The complete opposite of what we needed. He then mis-managed the Piennar and Yakubu situations.
Since the Lescott money its been downhill and he's lost his way.
There are ways he could have freshened the squad if he had been prepared to do it. I thought in the first 7/8 years he drove the club forward. He brought professionalism back to the club and rehabilitated the scouting network amongst other many other things. I felt i could see what he was trying to do, gradual incremental improvement and change.
However, in the small margins we operate in, since essentially spunking the Lescott cash, we levelled out and then regressed. The last 2 years haven't been his best. He's tired, jaded, looks like he's been in the job for 10 years and if he was a player I'd say he needed a move for his own sake.
He put a herculean effort into reforming a shambles of a club. The end cannot be long, maybe he will leave at the end of his contract. He will leave with my respect. I believe history will be kinder to him than many of people who are now turning against him.
Another issue is we are much nicer to play against than we were. Part of the problem last season with playing Arteta too deep was he didn't offer enough off the ball from a defensive perspective and we were too easy to play through, too nice to play against.
We all remember Carsley and Neville in mid, it was ridiculously defensive, awful to watch, but i felt we were progressing and we going forwards. For me it was pragmatic management whilst changing the squad in an effort to get up the league. It did what was required.
We were very tight at the back and won games by the odd goal with set pieces being vital. We improved the next year and it was mostly just Phil Neville in front of The Jag and Lescott. We we opened up slightly, the football improved but were still very tight. However, since the back end of the Donovan loan season, we can't defend.
For me, part of trying to progress and change the football was signing Fellaini, a ball playing, reading holding player. But for a club of out means right now, I thought it was an extravagance we couldnt afford. On a holding player for god sakes. It signalled the start of Moyes starting to do a lot less with the resources he was given. This continued with Heitinga and Billy, basically blowing the Lescott windfall.
We have also mismanaged Fellaini's contract situation and arent going to get the fee we were expecting. Someone is going to get the best of him, we havent he's just developed here.
I have nothing against Fellaini. I like him as a player, do not blame him for one moment for wanting away and think he will be a tremendous, holding european midfielder. But whilst a good player I feel it was the start of Moyes losing his eye/focus in the transfer market.
Another aspect of that is the refusal to trade and growing way too attached to some of the senior pros at the club. He has simultaneously been responsible for pushing the big contracts for players who were on occasion past their best and it would have been sensible to cash in on, Arteta, Cahill and possibly now the Jag.
He was losing some excellent established players, like Lescott and Pienaar, and was also unlucky with the injuries to Arteta, Yak and the Jag when we could have been at our best and looked like a real proposition, so I can see why he would want to retain the existing pros he had developed, but of anyone was dangling £15 mil for Arteta it should have been taken.
Also our inability to get Donovan in was a kick in the balls as we looked perfectly balanced with him. I thought we looked a great side. So why compound it by signing Billy? The complete opposite of what we needed. He then mis-managed the Piennar and Yakubu situations.
Since the Lescott money its been downhill and he's lost his way.
There are ways he could have freshened the squad if he had been prepared to do it. I thought in the first 7/8 years he drove the club forward. He brought professionalism back to the club and rehabilitated the scouting network amongst other many other things. I felt i could see what he was trying to do, gradual incremental improvement and change.
However, in the small margins we operate in, since essentially spunking the Lescott cash, we levelled out and then regressed. The last 2 years haven't been his best. He's tired, jaded, looks like he's been in the job for 10 years and if he was a player I'd say he needed a move for his own sake.
He put a herculean effort into reforming a shambles of a club. The end cannot be long, maybe he will leave at the end of his contract. He will leave with my respect. I believe history will be kinder to him than many of people who are now turning against him.
Kevin Hudson
60 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:36:48
60 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:36:48
..I think we're a wee bit better than mid-table, David!
Though the valid concern is that without investment,we could get dragged into that region. The animosity here should be directed more towards the board than Moyes.
Though the valid concern is that without investment,we could get dragged into that region. The animosity here should be directed more towards the board than Moyes.
John Daley
61 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:19:14
61 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:19:14
"It must be because I have wrote every single one of your arguments off on this site and not one of the Moyes bashers have ever managed to challange my arguments or answer any of my questions that I have put to them even though I have answered everyone else?s."
You do know that, just because you have convinced yourself you've won an argument, doesn't necessarily make it so? Lines like 'keep setting them up and I'll keep knocking them down' and 'i've wrote off every single one of your arguments', smack of self-delusion. From what I've read your 'legendary' argument assassinating skills consist of spouting the same shite incessantly, over and over again, simply hoping to drown out any opinion divergent from your own. A bit like Alan Partridge refusing to drive a mini metro:
Ian: I'm not having a word said against David Moyes Lynn
Lynn: if you'll just consider some of the negative tac...
Ian: I'll just talk over you Lynn.
Lynn: I...
Ian: Go on, try speaking again and see what I do.
Lynn: David Moyes.....
Ian: i'M NOT HEARING A WORD AGAINST DAVID MOYES, I'M NOT HEARING A WORD AGAINST DAVID MOYES, I'M NOT HEARING A WORD AGAINST DAVID MOYES, I'M NOT HEARING A WORD AGAINST DAVID MOYES.
You do know that, just because you have convinced yourself you've won an argument, doesn't necessarily make it so? Lines like 'keep setting them up and I'll keep knocking them down' and 'i've wrote off every single one of your arguments', smack of self-delusion. From what I've read your 'legendary' argument assassinating skills consist of spouting the same shite incessantly, over and over again, simply hoping to drown out any opinion divergent from your own. A bit like Alan Partridge refusing to drive a mini metro:
Ian: I'm not having a word said against David Moyes Lynn
Lynn: if you'll just consider some of the negative tac...
Ian: I'll just talk over you Lynn.
Lynn: I...
Ian: Go on, try speaking again and see what I do.
Lynn: David Moyes.....
Ian: i'M NOT HEARING A WORD AGAINST DAVID MOYES, I'M NOT HEARING A WORD AGAINST DAVID MOYES, I'M NOT HEARING A WORD AGAINST DAVID MOYES, I'M NOT HEARING A WORD AGAINST DAVID MOYES.
Trevor Mackie
62 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:53:11
62 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:53:11
"Alan Partridge" - absolutely inspired.
Top work John Daley.
Top work John Daley.
Trevor Mackie
63 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:56:00
63 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:56:00
still laughing......
- "smell my cheese Moyes apologist"
- "smell my cheese Moyes apologist"
Gavin Ramejkis
64 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:53:22
64 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:53:22
Kevin #58 a little too simplistic if you fail to agree that in not playing strikers long enough in a game to actually win them and gain three points then an entire season looking for draws simply wont be enough to give Everton a convincing "better than mid table" finish. The paucity of the gameplan and players actually on the pitch during games is solely down to David Moyes, he has strikers sat on the bench catching splinters in their backsides, they really aren't likely to score there are they?
What was the point of bringing Strac in for if not to play him? What is the point of leaving Velios on the bench to only bring him on when we are behind in a game? What is the point of playing players out of form or injured continually whilst perfectly good replacements are sat on the bench? Why not go out in a game looking to take the lead instead of reacting to going behind before finally playing a more attack minded formation and putting a goal scorer on the pitch?
What was the point of bringing Strac in for if not to play him? What is the point of leaving Velios on the bench to only bring him on when we are behind in a game? What is the point of playing players out of form or injured continually whilst perfectly good replacements are sat on the bench? Why not go out in a game looking to take the lead instead of reacting to going behind before finally playing a more attack minded formation and putting a goal scorer on the pitch?
Simon Harris
65 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:42:28
65 Posted 19/10/2011 at 21:42:28
I must confess I am starting to despair at the tactics and team selections used by Moyes this season. But I still havn't reached the point to call for his head as my anger and frustration is purely focused on the board.
They are the real villains here, with captain calamity kenwright at the helm - and even if Moyes does get the push, who the hell would BK choose as his successor?
"jenny, boil some eggs my love, we've got a young man called Gary Megson popping round for an interview, top bloke and a true Evertonian"
They are the real villains here, with captain calamity kenwright at the helm - and even if Moyes does get the push, who the hell would BK choose as his successor?
"jenny, boil some eggs my love, we've got a young man called Gary Megson popping round for an interview, top bloke and a true Evertonian"
Kevin Hudson
66 Posted 19/10/2011 at 22:01:47
66 Posted 19/10/2011 at 22:01:47
I agree with plenty there, Gavin.
Roman Sidey
67 Posted 19/10/2011 at 22:51:16
67 Posted 19/10/2011 at 22:51:16
Thank you RICHARD. Your point about people not expecting much 10 years ago, then Moyes coming through with the goods for a few seasons is exactly what I was trying to get through to people late last season.
The apologists wax lyrical about "who could do a better job?", thinking that there isn't a human being on the planet capable.
How many of them knew who David Moyes was 10 years ago? I'll have a rough guess - 0.02%.
The apologists wax lyrical about "who could do a better job?", thinking that there isn't a human being on the planet capable.
How many of them knew who David Moyes was 10 years ago? I'll have a rough guess - 0.02%.
Kevin Hudson
68 Posted 19/10/2011 at 23:42:38
68 Posted 19/10/2011 at 23:42:38
"Moyes coming through with the goods for a few seasons."
Try SEVEN top 8 finishes in NINE seasons.
Try SEVEN top 8 finishes in NINE seasons.
James Stewart
69 Posted 20/10/2011 at 00:24:21
69 Posted 20/10/2011 at 00:24:21
Spot on article.
Derek Thomas
70 Posted 20/10/2011 at 02:02:34
70 Posted 20/10/2011 at 02:02:34
Ian, like I said before Re your good self, hook line and sinker.
You are a handy label for the apologistas, just like your 0.02% ( we ALL can't be wrong (c.) )you use for the Moyes out brigade. It used to be Doddy but even he has seen a glimmer of the light.
BTW, what do you thing of a future Big Dunc + whoever management team??
You are a handy label for the apologistas, just like your 0.02% ( we ALL can't be wrong (c.) )you use for the Moyes out brigade. It used to be Doddy but even he has seen a glimmer of the light.
BTW, what do you thing of a future Big Dunc + whoever management team??
Roman Sidey
71 Posted 20/10/2011 at 04:06:34
71 Posted 20/10/2011 at 04:06:34
Kevin, you missed the point. I was pointing out that Moyes had some good seasons (definitely not 7!), and that no one would have known who he was or what he could do before hand, so why the fuck do people keep saying that there's nobody else out there that could do a job. Without knowing the names of managers of clubs, or caring where teams are in the lower leagues, I reckon there'd be at least 5 managers in the Championship or lower that, given the job tomorrow, could do better with this group of players than Moyes.
Mike Elbey
72 Posted 20/10/2011 at 09:31:54
72 Posted 20/10/2011 at 09:31:54
Up to this season we have had the 8th highest wage bill in the Premier division and we have finished over the past few years around 7th / 8th. As such I do not understand this perception that we are drastically over-achieving all the time. Surely what you pay the squad should equate somewhat to performance. Everyone who defends Moyes points out the lack of transfer funds, which I accept does hinder any ability to progress but the wage bill should be an indication of where we should finish durely.
Moyes has done well to buy players on the cheap and improve them. It has then been his choice to forsake any transfer funds and use any available money to inrease the wage bill. If we have the 8th highest wage bill in the league then the theory is we should finish 8th surely ?
At the moment this team, given the amount of money we are paying them and their manager, is drastically UNDER- achieving, not the opposite.
Moyes has done well to buy players on the cheap and improve them. It has then been his choice to forsake any transfer funds and use any available money to inrease the wage bill. If we have the 8th highest wage bill in the league then the theory is we should finish 8th surely ?
At the moment this team, given the amount of money we are paying them and their manager, is drastically UNDER- achieving, not the opposite.
Nelly Verdonghan
73 Posted 20/10/2011 at 11:43:27
73 Posted 20/10/2011 at 11:43:27
0.02%
Tony J Williams
74 Posted 20/10/2011 at 12:20:38
74 Posted 20/10/2011 at 12:20:38
Mike, when did Moyes take over from the lawyers at Everton? I didn't realise that he negotiated the terms for contracts!
Tony, I thought you were giving up?
Tony, I thought you were giving up?
Noel Lynam
75 Posted 20/10/2011 at 12:38:24
75 Posted 20/10/2011 at 12:38:24
Tony J Williams @ 72,
I find myself asking the same question, yet this must be the 3rd or 4th article Tony has treated us to - on essentially the same gripe - since deeming it necessary to write in and tell us he had "given up" on football.
Tony Marsh,
Some reasonable points and questions but sadly, if not surprisingly, lacking in credibility due to some rather revisionist remarks.
Let's start with your hero (or is that term purely to be used by the editor when addressing the Moyes "apologists"?) Joe Royle and his team of 1995. Yes the "Dogs of War", noted for their free flowing and entertaining football. Who beat Spurs 4-1 playing one up front. In fact, such a tactical genius was Joe that the scorer of the last two goals in that game was only on the pitch by accident / breakdown in communications. I shudder to think how you'd react if Moyes made a similar cock-up. Yes, the same Spurs team who beat Liverpool with a late goal in the quarter final and didn't quite "murder" them. It's ironic that you use Royle to make your point here, praising that team for similar qualities which Moyes has been widely praised for moulding into his team over the years. I guess we can never really compare properly since Royle was not around for 9 years.
Now to the money point. Norwich City certainly did spend more money than us. On one of our players alone. Swansea signed Morison, Lita, Graham and Vorm for about £9m combined. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good old one-sided rant. As an aside, neither of those clubs sold their most creative player for £10m to balance the books. It might - just MIGHT - be that their "have a go" style is in direct correlation with the novelty factor of being in the Premier League.
On your tv rights point - who do you think will pay money to watch any of the Premier League teams, aside from the top (TM Sky) sides with their global fanbases?
Much like how you feel about Moyes, I think you also peaked a few years back Tony and I wonder why you seem intent on "heaping more misery on us all".
I find myself asking the same question, yet this must be the 3rd or 4th article Tony has treated us to - on essentially the same gripe - since deeming it necessary to write in and tell us he had "given up" on football.
Tony Marsh,
Some reasonable points and questions but sadly, if not surprisingly, lacking in credibility due to some rather revisionist remarks.
Let's start with your hero (or is that term purely to be used by the editor when addressing the Moyes "apologists"?) Joe Royle and his team of 1995. Yes the "Dogs of War", noted for their free flowing and entertaining football. Who beat Spurs 4-1 playing one up front. In fact, such a tactical genius was Joe that the scorer of the last two goals in that game was only on the pitch by accident / breakdown in communications. I shudder to think how you'd react if Moyes made a similar cock-up. Yes, the same Spurs team who beat Liverpool with a late goal in the quarter final and didn't quite "murder" them. It's ironic that you use Royle to make your point here, praising that team for similar qualities which Moyes has been widely praised for moulding into his team over the years. I guess we can never really compare properly since Royle was not around for 9 years.
Now to the money point. Norwich City certainly did spend more money than us. On one of our players alone. Swansea signed Morison, Lita, Graham and Vorm for about £9m combined. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good old one-sided rant. As an aside, neither of those clubs sold their most creative player for £10m to balance the books. It might - just MIGHT - be that their "have a go" style is in direct correlation with the novelty factor of being in the Premier League.
On your tv rights point - who do you think will pay money to watch any of the Premier League teams, aside from the top (TM Sky) sides with their global fanbases?
Much like how you feel about Moyes, I think you also peaked a few years back Tony and I wonder why you seem intent on "heaping more misery on us all".
Dave Lynch
76 Posted 20/10/2011 at 13:22:00
76 Posted 20/10/2011 at 13:22:00
Noel @72.
Don't blame Tony for heaping "More misery upon us".
You only have to watch us play every week to get thet feeling.
Don't blame Tony for heaping "More misery upon us".
You only have to watch us play every week to get thet feeling.
Tom Winek
77 Posted 20/10/2011 at 13:25:42
77 Posted 20/10/2011 at 13:25:42
It's not the 'Apologists' propogating fear. It's those who want him out. As Kevin says above, Moyes has earned our trust. We may not be happy with some of his tactics this season and the results but personally I'll judge him at the end of the season and not after losing against the three of the biggest and wealthiest teams in Europe.
I truly believe Moyes has squeezed all he can out of the players at his disposal over the decade bar the odd season. I look at the results.
I truly believe Moyes has squeezed all he can out of the players at his disposal over the decade bar the odd season. I look at the results.
Jimmy Kelly
78 Posted 20/10/2011 at 13:44:54
78 Posted 20/10/2011 at 13:44:54
Roman, you may not have known who David Moyes was but please don't tar us all with the same brush.
The man had been identified by many shrewd judges as a future top manager, and they have been proved right.
I do agree though, that there may be one or two similar chaacters out there now. My question would be, why would they come to Everton now?
The man had been identified by many shrewd judges as a future top manager, and they have been proved right.
I do agree though, that there may be one or two similar chaacters out there now. My question would be, why would they come to Everton now?
Paul Olsen
79 Posted 20/10/2011 at 14:13:44
79 Posted 20/10/2011 at 14:13:44
#Jimmy
Oh, was our situation so much better when Moyes took over since noone would want to come now?
Then: Annual relegation strugglers with little money. Old squad consisting of 85% defenders.
Now: Regular top-10 finishes for many years, thin squad but with some quality players, no money, but a club supposedly looking for buyers.
As a lower league manager, I would believe scenario 2 would offer more promise.
Oh, was our situation so much better when Moyes took over since noone would want to come now?
Then: Annual relegation strugglers with little money. Old squad consisting of 85% defenders.
Now: Regular top-10 finishes for many years, thin squad but with some quality players, no money, but a club supposedly looking for buyers.
As a lower league manager, I would believe scenario 2 would offer more promise.
Tony J Williams
80 Posted 20/10/2011 at 14:02:08
80 Posted 20/10/2011 at 14:02:08
Who can blame Moyes having a miserable demeanour? Three years with nothing to spend on the team.
i would have packed it in ages ago.
I have noted that a lot of posters keep refering to his wages, but if money apparantly has nothing to do with winning, what does it matter what he is on? It is a ludicrous wage, as are the other wages of the players etc
i would have packed it in ages ago.
I have noted that a lot of posters keep refering to his wages, but if money apparantly has nothing to do with winning, what does it matter what he is on? It is a ludicrous wage, as are the other wages of the players etc
Tony Marsh
81 Posted 20/10/2011 at 15:12:36
81 Posted 20/10/2011 at 15:12:36
Noel Lydown @ 72
So what would you have me do, Noel? Sit back and say fuck all? Not utter a word in anger and just accept the utter shambles that has now become David Moyes's reign at Everton FC?
Nit-pick away all you like but smart arse rhetoric is all you have to offer. Why does it take money to play a striker at home games when we have 3 on the bench every game? Where is the money needed to drop Osman and Hibbert? We could get 3 kids off a Liverpool sunday League park who could do a better job than these two.
How is not a move of a "lost the plot" loser to bring J McFadden back? Doesn't it annoy you when Drenthe and Gueye don't get a look-in and this waste of space will probably get a game?..
Ye know what? ? it's the likes of you who are dragging this club down with your refusal to see the truth... You, BK and DM. Go and be a Lemming if you must ? at least some of us care enough to have a say.
So what would you have me do, Noel? Sit back and say fuck all? Not utter a word in anger and just accept the utter shambles that has now become David Moyes's reign at Everton FC?
Nit-pick away all you like but smart arse rhetoric is all you have to offer. Why does it take money to play a striker at home games when we have 3 on the bench every game? Where is the money needed to drop Osman and Hibbert? We could get 3 kids off a Liverpool sunday League park who could do a better job than these two.
How is not a move of a "lost the plot" loser to bring J McFadden back? Doesn't it annoy you when Drenthe and Gueye don't get a look-in and this waste of space will probably get a game?..
Ye know what? ? it's the likes of you who are dragging this club down with your refusal to see the truth... You, BK and DM. Go and be a Lemming if you must ? at least some of us care enough to have a say.
Richard Dodd
82 Posted 20/10/2011 at 16:57:21
82 Posted 20/10/2011 at 16:57:21
I re-iterate my belief that Davey will have it sorted by Christmas although to do so he needs to smarten up the defensive side of the team else our odd goal from set-pieces will count for nothing.
As far as re-signing Faddy is concerned, he knows what the manager expects of him both up-front and in defence and should be a very useful addition to the squad.
Tony only posts after we`ve lost a couple so today`s diatribe was to be expected.
As far as re-signing Faddy is concerned, he knows what the manager expects of him both up-front and in defence and should be a very useful addition to the squad.
Tony only posts after we`ve lost a couple so today`s diatribe was to be expected.
Dennis Stevens
83 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:09:46
83 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:09:46
Kevin, if the basis for your assessment of Moues is his entire Everton career, then you really are being ridiculous in defending the indefensible & lauding mediocrity. Moyes record places him 6th on the table of Everton managers, just below the much maligned Gordon Lee & a little ahead of Billy Bingham. The man is a plodder & his football is generally dull & unimaginative.
Jon Cox
84 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:27:20
84 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:27:20
"Dogs of war" Brilliant. What a negative term. Well here's the only stat that matters for the record books.
Honours won;
Joe Royal 1 David Moyes 0
I rest my case.
Honours won;
Joe Royal 1 David Moyes 0
I rest my case.
David Hallwood
85 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:36:30
85 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:36:30
Dennis Stevens#82, I speak as someone who is despairs of Moyes tactic of launch the ball and press the second ball, so I'm not exactly a fan, plus I think he's in self pity mode (with good reason BTW) and his body language this season screams 'can't be arsed with this anymore'
Nevertheless, you cannot put his record against Lee & Bingham because they were managing at a time when we were still a big club and players wanted to come here, and at the time we could compete with Man U, Arsenal and even the RS for the best players. As the signing of Mcfadden shows. we are a long way from those days.
Nevertheless, you cannot put his record against Lee & Bingham because they were managing at a time when we were still a big club and players wanted to come here, and at the time we could compete with Man U, Arsenal and even the RS for the best players. As the signing of Mcfadden shows. we are a long way from those days.
Jamie Barlow
86 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:28:41
86 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:28:41
" Doesn't it annoy you when Drenthe and Gueye don't get a look-in and this waste of space will probably get a game?.."
Why does it annoy you when it hasn't even happened?
" We could get 3 kids off a Liverpool sunday League park who could do a better job than these two."
Give Moyes a bell and tell him what park they're in"
I quite like your posts Tony but you spoil it with bullshit like the two beauts above.
Why does it annoy you when it hasn't even happened?
" We could get 3 kids off a Liverpool sunday League park who could do a better job than these two."
Give Moyes a bell and tell him what park they're in"
I quite like your posts Tony but you spoil it with bullshit like the two beauts above.
Noel Lynam
87 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:11:25
87 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:11:25
Noel Lydown? Noel Lydown?! That's magnificent wit. Not quite at the level of Moany Arse, but I digress...
Since you asked, what I would prefer is for you not to play the "poor me" act, saying how you have given up on football because of Moyes only to subsequently write post after attention seeking, post on that very topic, belittling everyone who doesn't share your viewpoint.
So you don't like Moyes - I get it. And because I disagree with your flawed and inconsistent logic, that makes me the same as Kenwright and Moyes, and a lemming who is dragging the club down with my refusal to see the truth? I'm on record as being critical of Moyes - just read the comments on last week's match report to see that. But I guess that doesn't fit in with your agenda, does it.
You ask about the signing of McFadden. I think he is a poor player with no football brain. The article I alluded to earlier will show you how I believe Moyes' cautiousness will hold back Barkley and lead to Drenthe becoming disillusioned. But let's not let that get in the way of your refusal to see other points of view.
So Tony, a lot of us care enough to have an opinion. But some don't opine that they hope we are beaten 5-0 just to prove their point.
Since you asked, what I would prefer is for you not to play the "poor me" act, saying how you have given up on football because of Moyes only to subsequently write post after attention seeking, post on that very topic, belittling everyone who doesn't share your viewpoint.
So you don't like Moyes - I get it. And because I disagree with your flawed and inconsistent logic, that makes me the same as Kenwright and Moyes, and a lemming who is dragging the club down with my refusal to see the truth? I'm on record as being critical of Moyes - just read the comments on last week's match report to see that. But I guess that doesn't fit in with your agenda, does it.
You ask about the signing of McFadden. I think he is a poor player with no football brain. The article I alluded to earlier will show you how I believe Moyes' cautiousness will hold back Barkley and lead to Drenthe becoming disillusioned. But let's not let that get in the way of your refusal to see other points of view.
So Tony, a lot of us care enough to have an opinion. But some don't opine that they hope we are beaten 5-0 just to prove their point.
Kevin Hudson
88 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:27:07
88 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:27:07
Gordon lee's wiin ratio is 39.3%
David Moyes' win ratio is 41.5%
Moyes is NOT below Lee. You are lying, Dennis!
Then you state:
"If the basis for your assesment of Moyes is his entire Everton career, then you really are being ridiculous."
In that case,I am DYING to hear what YOU think IS the appropriate barometer for measuring the man's work.
Fell free to outline where, on this thread, I have "defended the indefensible," or point me in the direction of where I have "lauded mediocrity."
You'll need to back this up with evidence, naturally.Quote me.
Your case (51 & 23) seemingly hinges on ONE game, and apparently you disregard the other 434..!!
Absolute Belter..!!
David Moyes' win ratio is 41.5%
Moyes is NOT below Lee. You are lying, Dennis!
Then you state:
"If the basis for your assesment of Moyes is his entire Everton career, then you really are being ridiculous."
In that case,I am DYING to hear what YOU think IS the appropriate barometer for measuring the man's work.
Fell free to outline where, on this thread, I have "defended the indefensible," or point me in the direction of where I have "lauded mediocrity."
You'll need to back this up with evidence, naturally.Quote me.
Your case (51 & 23) seemingly hinges on ONE game, and apparently you disregard the other 434..!!
Absolute Belter..!!
Dennis Stevens
89 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:58:19
89 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:58:19
Kevin, I'm not a liar - it would appear you are if you've just made up those statistics. If you haven't made them up, what's your source? I'm not going to waste time trying to quote you for use out of context, in the same way you have. If you really don't understand what I've written perhaps you should try a remedial reading course. Then you might be able to cut down on the ridiculous posts you seem to specialise in. If there were any doubt about you're inability to conceive & comminicate a valid point it's certainly removed by your need to resort to petty insults. Still, if you've learned a new word today I suppose it's understandable that you may want to show off & use it straight away.
Noel Lynam
90 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:48:34
90 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:48:34
Jon Cox,
Dogs of War was not my term, nor am I detracting from Royle's FA Cup winning achievement, my best footballing memory from my teens, as it happens, plus I admire Royle's reasons for resigning and cannot ever see Moyes doing likewise under the same circumstances.
I was merely pointing out how using a once off cup game under Royle (the Spurs semi) as a stick to beat Moyes with seems hypocritical when Royle's 94-95 team employed the very same hoofball that Moyes is often criticised for. The difference being Royle's team used it more often and more effectively.
Dogs of War was not my term, nor am I detracting from Royle's FA Cup winning achievement, my best footballing memory from my teens, as it happens, plus I admire Royle's reasons for resigning and cannot ever see Moyes doing likewise under the same circumstances.
I was merely pointing out how using a once off cup game under Royle (the Spurs semi) as a stick to beat Moyes with seems hypocritical when Royle's 94-95 team employed the very same hoofball that Moyes is often criticised for. The difference being Royle's team used it more often and more effectively.
Dennis Stevens
91 Posted 20/10/2011 at 20:11:31
91 Posted 20/10/2011 at 20:11:31
David, I take your point regarding changing circumstances, although it seems to me we've been sliding in one direction for a long time, but increasingly repidly under the current regime. Indeed, I believe Colin Harvey mentioned that the Board were contemplating the sale of Bellefield almost 30 years ago in their desperation to generate transfer funds for Howard Kendall. However, I wasn't trying to draw a direct comparison between Moyes & Lee or Bingham specifically, merely pointing out where he stands in the rankings of Everton managers - i.e. a little above middling, which is probably a phrase that reflects his time at the club quite well.
Richard Reeves
92 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:55:48
92 Posted 20/10/2011 at 19:55:48
Tony J Williams,when has Moyes not had a miserable demeanor.Even when he's happy he looks like he thinks he shouldn't be.The press conferences are uncomfortable to watch.He looks like he's trying to give the impression that he is someone you would not want to verbally cross (ask the wrong question) for fear of being made to look a fool off,yet all he achieves is the look of someone who's about to walk out in a huff (dummy from the pram).He's certainly no Alex Ferguson and the comparisons that i can remember being made by people like Mark lawrenson and other pundits never washed with me.When i see him on tv now it just angers me.I used to respect Moyes for his honesty for the first 4 or 5 years but now I am fed up at looking at an average manager who always has an excuse and is treating us fans like mugs who've never seen good football.He is a lucky bastard to be running this club and he knows he'll never get it better.Just do one Moyes!
Kevin Hudson
93 Posted 20/10/2011 at 20:15:58
93 Posted 20/10/2011 at 20:15:58
Now I'm making up statistics?! Dennis, let me assure you that I'm not Dustin Hoffman in the movie: "Rainman." Incredibly, I didn't mathematically calculate these figures inside my own head - I did my homework; Namely: Wikipedia " List of Everton FC Managers."
Unless I lied, it is IMPOSSIBLE when citing a managers ENTIRE record, to quote the full FACTS "out of context." Please, go check them for yourself.
You claim there was doubt over my "ability to concieve or communicate a valid point."
Wrong on two counts, because:
There are some who have AGREED with me. Therefore, by definition they thought my points WERE VALID. Not all of them, obviously, and that's absolutely fine. But secondly, there is NOBODY who has struggled to understand my point, as NO ONE has asked me to clarify my argument, so a question mark there..
Finally, it doesn't wash when you accuse me of resorting to "petty insults," whilst simultaneously suggesting that I learn to read, can't communicate, wish to show-off the "new word I learned today," specialise in "ridiculous posts," and invent factual, verifiable evidence off the top of my head
Have I mentioned you have used the word "ridiculous," in all 4 of your responses to me? It's incredibly hard to resist throwing the last line of post 88 back in your face..!
Unless I lied, it is IMPOSSIBLE when citing a managers ENTIRE record, to quote the full FACTS "out of context." Please, go check them for yourself.
You claim there was doubt over my "ability to concieve or communicate a valid point."
Wrong on two counts, because:
There are some who have AGREED with me. Therefore, by definition they thought my points WERE VALID. Not all of them, obviously, and that's absolutely fine. But secondly, there is NOBODY who has struggled to understand my point, as NO ONE has asked me to clarify my argument, so a question mark there..
Finally, it doesn't wash when you accuse me of resorting to "petty insults," whilst simultaneously suggesting that I learn to read, can't communicate, wish to show-off the "new word I learned today," specialise in "ridiculous posts," and invent factual, verifiable evidence off the top of my head
Have I mentioned you have used the word "ridiculous," in all 4 of your responses to me? It's incredibly hard to resist throwing the last line of post 88 back in your face..!
Jon Cox
94 Posted 20/10/2011 at 20:33:55
94 Posted 20/10/2011 at 20:33:55
Noel, my comment was never directed to you. You have your opinion and I have mine. And by the way it's opinions like yours and Kevs, that I tune in to TW. What a shite world it would be if we all agreed all the time with each other.
All I was trying to say was in terms of wining things then Royal (up to now) was better than Davey!
On the other hand if Dave finishes 3rd and subsequently wins the Champions League then, I'm sure my attitude would do a 180 degree about turn.
It's about what it is now. I'm sure it's not escaped your attention that "Now" is total "Crap"
Would you think my attitude will change within the next three seasons if things stay the same? Betcha W. Hill wouldn't take a bet.
All I was trying to say was in terms of wining things then Royal (up to now) was better than Davey!
On the other hand if Dave finishes 3rd and subsequently wins the Champions League then, I'm sure my attitude would do a 180 degree about turn.
It's about what it is now. I'm sure it's not escaped your attention that "Now" is total "Crap"
Would you think my attitude will change within the next three seasons if things stay the same? Betcha W. Hill wouldn't take a bet.
Dennis Stevens
95 Posted 20/10/2011 at 21:29:34
95 Posted 20/10/2011 at 21:29:34
Kevin, if you base your claims on wikipedia then I take it all back, as that's obviously anything but ridiculous.
Kevin Hudson
96 Posted 20/10/2011 at 21:35:18
96 Posted 20/10/2011 at 21:35:18
(As of 15th October, 2011)
Shoot-down the message - not the messenger..
Shoot-down the message - not the messenger..
Sam Hoare
97 Posted 20/10/2011 at 21:38:51
97 Posted 20/10/2011 at 21:38:51
Sore loser Dennis? Think you got told.
Meanwhile the OP is boringly predictable...especially in his Hibbert and Osman bashing. Though even as an optimist/apologist i am finding hope and faith harder to summon up for the Moyesiah at the moment.
Meanwhile the OP is boringly predictable...especially in his Hibbert and Osman bashing. Though even as an optimist/apologist i am finding hope and faith harder to summon up for the Moyesiah at the moment.
Dennis Stevens
98 Posted 20/10/2011 at 21:51:36
98 Posted 20/10/2011 at 21:51:36
Not everybody likes to spend their life ranting incoherently like Kevin, Sam, but if weak & poorly researched ravings are to your taste then I suppose you're easily impressed.
Kevin Hudson
99 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:09:11
99 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:09:11
I'll open myself to the firing squad here:
Does anyone think I'm either (A) "Ranting"? Or:(B) "Incoherent" ?
And can anyone, Dennis included, dispute my "weak & poorly researched ravings."?
I am more than happy to be corrected, folks.
Does anyone think I'm either (A) "Ranting"? Or:(B) "Incoherent" ?
And can anyone, Dennis included, dispute my "weak & poorly researched ravings."?
I am more than happy to be corrected, folks.
Dennis Stevens
100 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:19:07
100 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:19:07
Do you just not get enough attention in real life, Kevin?
Roman Sidey
101 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:24:15
101 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:24:15
Richard Dodd, you say that you believe Moyes "will have it sorted by Christmas". Can you please tell me two things?
Firstly, what is "it" he will have sorted? Secondly, how is it acceptable that a manager that is in his 10th season at the club takes half a season to "sort it"?
The day he should have had it sorted was August 20 (or 13th depending on how you look at it).
Firstly, what is "it" he will have sorted? Secondly, how is it acceptable that a manager that is in his 10th season at the club takes half a season to "sort it"?
The day he should have had it sorted was August 20 (or 13th depending on how you look at it).
Kevin Hudson
102 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:31:26
102 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:31:26
Now is that not a "petty insult," Dennis?
I thought you said you were opposed to that kind of thing?
Stick to the facts, or debate.the argument.
I thought you said you were opposed to that kind of thing?
Stick to the facts, or debate.the argument.
Dennis Stevens
103 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:38:02
103 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:38:02
I think you're a bit over-sensitive, Kevin. Hence the somewhat overblown reaction, right from when I had the temerity to use the word 'ridiculous' some posts back. Although 'ridiculous' is the word that springs to mind when somebody, having called me a 'liar', then suggests I 'stick to the facts', despite his own source being wikipedia.
Dave Street
104 Posted 20/10/2011 at 23:06:40
104 Posted 20/10/2011 at 23:06:40
Saturdays performance was not good enough. I think any Everton fan who watched that game would agree. We looked scared to try and take the initiative and that's worrying to say the least. Sundays a massive game. Defeat there and expect to see us in the bottom 3 by the week after! He simply has to play drenthe this wkd and I think its time to take Coleman out the firing line for a wk.
Sam Hoare
105 Posted 20/10/2011 at 23:14:54
105 Posted 20/10/2011 at 23:14:54
Be a man Dennis. Put your hand up and say you are wrong. You'll feel better for it i promise.
Kevin Hudson
106 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:50:41
106 Posted 20/10/2011 at 22:50:41
Dennis,
I'll happily retract the "liar," comment if you can prove that Gordon Lee was more successful than David Moyes; That is what you claim.
You have not supported this with evidence, I provided you with statistical evidence to the contrary, therefore I alleged your statement has been proven to be false.
I then invited you to challenge or debunk my research. You have not done this. You then accused me of making it up, so I presented you with my source. You mocked the source, but STILL failed to counter it with your own information.
Both managerial spells are a matter of public record. This really shouldn't be too difficult to resolve.
I'll happily retract the "liar," comment if you can prove that Gordon Lee was more successful than David Moyes; That is what you claim.
You have not supported this with evidence, I provided you with statistical evidence to the contrary, therefore I alleged your statement has been proven to be false.
I then invited you to challenge or debunk my research. You have not done this. You then accused me of making it up, so I presented you with my source. You mocked the source, but STILL failed to counter it with your own information.
Both managerial spells are a matter of public record. This really shouldn't be too difficult to resolve.
Dennis Stevens
107 Posted 20/10/2011 at 23:31:29
107 Posted 20/10/2011 at 23:31:29
I know from your previous posts that you like to twist other people's comments to suit your own agenda, Kevin. If you genuinely want to verify the source of information quoted then I'd suggest accusing others of lying is probably not the best approach, not everybody who disagrees with you is being malicious or deceitful. I have made no 'claims' as you describe, I have merely quoted information that is readily available - surely this isn't the only Everton website you use?
The figures, according to www.evertonresults.com are as follows :
1st Howard Kendall [Mk I] 65.7% ; 2nd Harry Catterick 59.6% ; 3rd Colin Harvey 57.4% ; 4th Joe Royle 55.1% ; 5th Gordon Lee 54.7% ; 6th David Moyes 54.5% ; 7th Billy Bingham 53.2%. If you consolidate Kendall's record then he drops to 2nd place on 59.5%. Mike Walker is, of course, bottom of the pile on 32.9%.
The figures, according to www.evertonresults.com are as follows :
1st Howard Kendall [Mk I] 65.7% ; 2nd Harry Catterick 59.6% ; 3rd Colin Harvey 57.4% ; 4th Joe Royle 55.1% ; 5th Gordon Lee 54.7% ; 6th David Moyes 54.5% ; 7th Billy Bingham 53.2%. If you consolidate Kendall's record then he drops to 2nd place on 59.5%. Mike Walker is, of course, bottom of the pile on 32.9%.
Kevin Hudson
108 Posted 21/10/2011 at 00:04:36
108 Posted 21/10/2011 at 00:04:36
Dennis....
On this website you pointed me towards, the author himself adds a pertinent disclaimer:
That he based it on the number of points won in all competitive games, calculated on the 2 points for a win scenario.
He then goes on to SPECIFY that by converting the games played to 3 points for a win - Moyes statistically moves up by TWO places, above Royle and ...(Move aside for the Fat Lady) ..GORDON LEE.
..And would be 4th on HIS OWN LIST.
For someone accusing me of having an agenda, you're FAILURE to take your OWN SOURCE'S DISCLAIMER into account, does your credibility no favours whatsoever.
We've now arrived at Rumsfeld's "Known-known's," territory, I think....
On this website you pointed me towards, the author himself adds a pertinent disclaimer:
That he based it on the number of points won in all competitive games, calculated on the 2 points for a win scenario.
He then goes on to SPECIFY that by converting the games played to 3 points for a win - Moyes statistically moves up by TWO places, above Royle and ...(Move aside for the Fat Lady) ..GORDON LEE.
..And would be 4th on HIS OWN LIST.
For someone accusing me of having an agenda, you're FAILURE to take your OWN SOURCE'S DISCLAIMER into account, does your credibility no favours whatsoever.
We've now arrived at Rumsfeld's "Known-known's," territory, I think....
Mike Elbey
109 Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:52:09
109 Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:52:09
Tony,
Come on, are you telling me in this day and age Moyes isnt aware of what certain players want to sign another contract. Do you not think he knew he had to make Arteta the highest paid player to keep him 2 years ago.
Moyes himself in the summer of 2010 said that all resources were being used to tie players to long term contracts and that there would be nothing left for signings. He had the option that summer to trade but decided not too as such he has raised the level of the wage bill.
Anyway, your point is oirelevant to what i was saying, the fact is we do not massively over achieve given the standing of our wage bill compared to others in the division. Indeed this season it looks like we will under perform baed on our wages.
My point is simple, performance relates to what you play the players comparative to other clubs, not how much you spend in the transfer market. If Aston Villa spend £50m but still have a lower wage bill thena our squad then the fact is we believe our squad to be better otherwise why pay more ?
Come on, are you telling me in this day and age Moyes isnt aware of what certain players want to sign another contract. Do you not think he knew he had to make Arteta the highest paid player to keep him 2 years ago.
Moyes himself in the summer of 2010 said that all resources were being used to tie players to long term contracts and that there would be nothing left for signings. He had the option that summer to trade but decided not too as such he has raised the level of the wage bill.
Anyway, your point is oirelevant to what i was saying, the fact is we do not massively over achieve given the standing of our wage bill compared to others in the division. Indeed this season it looks like we will under perform baed on our wages.
My point is simple, performance relates to what you play the players comparative to other clubs, not how much you spend in the transfer market. If Aston Villa spend £50m but still have a lower wage bill thena our squad then the fact is we believe our squad to be better otherwise why pay more ?
Phil Bellis
110 Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:59:17
110 Posted 21/10/2011 at 10:59:17
Richard,
You believe "Davey will have it sorted by Christmas"
Would you care to tell us the points total you expect us to have by Christmas Day which will meet that belief and have us "sorted"?
My guesstimate, based purely on the 7 matches I've seen this season, is 19 points; if we have more than that then I would be delighted, relieved and so grateful to be proved wrong.
You believe "Davey will have it sorted by Christmas"
Would you care to tell us the points total you expect us to have by Christmas Day which will meet that belief and have us "sorted"?
My guesstimate, based purely on the 7 matches I've seen this season, is 19 points; if we have more than that then I would be delighted, relieved and so grateful to be proved wrong.
Ian Bennett
111 Posted 21/10/2011 at 11:54:53
111 Posted 21/10/2011 at 11:54:53
Roman ? every team in football history has to be rebuilt. Ferguson has done it countless times, as has Wegner, whilst Chelsea are being rebuilt from the successful Jose era. To think that a decline doesn't happen is simply out of touch, and to think it can be resolved with a quick of fingers is not realistic. This season is a transition season of a mismatch squad compounded by no strengthening over the last 2 seasons (both bk and moyes can take rsp for that one for not trading and the other for being out of his depth).
The difference between Moyes and the Ferguson is clearly red nose plans it better and has the resources to see it through. Eveton chased the dream of the top 4 finish with the same bunch of players and failed, and now the slow rebuild must start again. I still back Moyes to get it right over most of the managers being put up on this site, and I still back Moyes to change the team against teams that aren't going to rag a bunch of kids/new signings which has been seen over the next 3 matches.
Fulham away is a big match and I think he will turn it around. We have been here before being spanked 4-0 against Bolton and Villa, and he has come through. He will do it again.
The difference between Moyes and the Ferguson is clearly red nose plans it better and has the resources to see it through. Eveton chased the dream of the top 4 finish with the same bunch of players and failed, and now the slow rebuild must start again. I still back Moyes to get it right over most of the managers being put up on this site, and I still back Moyes to change the team against teams that aren't going to rag a bunch of kids/new signings which has been seen over the next 3 matches.
Fulham away is a big match and I think he will turn it around. We have been here before being spanked 4-0 against Bolton and Villa, and he has come through. He will do it again.
Tony J Williams
112 Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:42:32
112 Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:42:32
107 - Boom!
Dennis Stevens
113 Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:46:45
113 Posted 21/10/2011 at 12:46:45
I'm not too sure what your obsession with Gordon Lee is Kevin. But then you seem to have been determined throughout to try & pick an argument over points that are not being made. As usual, you seem intent on re-interpreting information to suit some peculiar agenda you seem to have.
Your so-called 'disclaimer' is merely a statement of the obvious that the statistics come out slightly differently depending on whether you use 2 or 3 points for a win ? did you really need this explaining to you?
So, if it makes you feel better, Moyes would be 4th between Harvey & Royle ? I suppose you'll now get a bee in your bonnet about Harvey! Significantly, it leaves Moyes amongst the also rans rather than the true greats of Kendall & Catterick, which was rather the point that was being made, before you decided to ignore that & instead have an inquest into poor old Gordon Lee (were you a big Duncan McKenzie fan?).
Your so-called 'disclaimer' is merely a statement of the obvious that the statistics come out slightly differently depending on whether you use 2 or 3 points for a win ? did you really need this explaining to you?
So, if it makes you feel better, Moyes would be 4th between Harvey & Royle ? I suppose you'll now get a bee in your bonnet about Harvey! Significantly, it leaves Moyes amongst the also rans rather than the true greats of Kendall & Catterick, which was rather the point that was being made, before you decided to ignore that & instead have an inquest into poor old Gordon Lee (were you a big Duncan McKenzie fan?).
Damian Kelly
114 Posted 21/10/2011 at 13:15:36
114 Posted 21/10/2011 at 13:15:36
Kevin - dont wrestle with a pig in shit. You'll get dirty and the pig will enjoy it.
Peter Barry
115 Posted 21/10/2011 at 14:01:59
115 Posted 21/10/2011 at 14:01:59
Do Managers have a 'sell-by' date ? after which, they become part of the problem and not the solution? I think so and I think that time has arrived.
"TAXI for Mr Moyes'' and, if possible, take 'Blue Bill' with you.
"TAXI for Mr Moyes'' and, if possible, take 'Blue Bill' with you.
Paul Lally
116 Posted 21/10/2011 at 13:48:15
116 Posted 21/10/2011 at 13:48:15
Dennis Stevens#111
When you find yourself in a hole, the first rule is to quit digging; if you're blind to the possibility of error or determined not to admit it, you just look for a bigger shovel.
COYB
When you find yourself in a hole, the first rule is to quit digging; if you're blind to the possibility of error or determined not to admit it, you just look for a bigger shovel.
COYB
Gavin Ramejkis
117 Posted 21/10/2011 at 14:27:46
117 Posted 21/10/2011 at 14:27:46
Dennis and Kevin surely a better way to resolve the whole points won issue would be to simply count the percentage of games won rather than how many points each manager accumulated. How do those figures come out?
I never forgave Gordon Lee for selling Duncan McKenzie.
I never forgave Gordon Lee for selling Duncan McKenzie.
Jimmy Kelly
118 Posted 21/10/2011 at 14:21:50
118 Posted 21/10/2011 at 14:21:50
Paul Olsen, i'm not saying it's definitely the case only my opinion.
If i'd had the choice between taking over Everton then or now i would say then every time. There was the promise of a little money to spend, expectations were very low and if we had gone down people would have blamed it on Smith not Moyes (see Alan Shearer at Newcastle). Now, people are saying they want Moyes out DESPITE the top ten finishes you mention and want the style of football to improve. Oh, and we have no money. At all. As i say, others will disagree but I don't think we're an attractive proposition to a young manager at this time.
If i'd had the choice between taking over Everton then or now i would say then every time. There was the promise of a little money to spend, expectations were very low and if we had gone down people would have blamed it on Smith not Moyes (see Alan Shearer at Newcastle). Now, people are saying they want Moyes out DESPITE the top ten finishes you mention and want the style of football to improve. Oh, and we have no money. At all. As i say, others will disagree but I don't think we're an attractive proposition to a young manager at this time.
Dennis Stevens
119 Posted 21/10/2011 at 16:36:16
119 Posted 21/10/2011 at 16:36:16
Gavin, I'm not trying to make any claims about Gordon Lee, Kevin's just decided to go off on a tangent, presumably to deflect criticism of Moyes. The information I've quoted is all available on www.evertonresults.com & I'm sure they don't make the stuff up as they go along. Of course, it's easier for Kevin, to take umbrage than to address the point being made.
Gavin Ramejkis
120 Posted 21/10/2011 at 17:05:38
120 Posted 21/10/2011 at 17:05:38
Dennis I'm not trying to say anyone is trying to make a specific point about old Dracula, just saying if the arguing the toss about 2 points versus 3 is such a problem (not for me as in their day it was two points and in Gollum's its 3) why not put win ratios and draw ratios and loss ratios side by side. I don't know what these look like but surely these would be a fair representation if thats the argument. Id also use league games as opposed to European games as the whole format of European competition entry is vastly different from those days
Denis Richardson
121 Posted 21/10/2011 at 17:22:12
121 Posted 21/10/2011 at 17:22:12
If only Moyes and the team could show as much 'fight' as Kevin and Dennis......
Dennis Stevens
122 Posted 21/10/2011 at 17:16:56
122 Posted 21/10/2011 at 17:16:56
It's far more detail than the original point merited, Gavin. I was merely pointing out that in comparison to our two greatest managers (Kendall & Catterick), Moyes is in amongst the also rans [Harvey, Royle, Lee, Moyes, Bingham]. For some reason, Kevin got bent out of shape about the detail of points per win affecting the order [Harvey, Moyes, Royle, Lee, Bingham], but I don't see that it changes the point. I'd argue they were all good managers, but not great. Not a very dramatic comment on Moyes, but apparently too critical for Kevin.
Kevin Hudson
123 Posted 21/10/2011 at 18:38:17
123 Posted 21/10/2011 at 18:38:17
Dennis,
My ?obsession,? with Gordon Lee arose when in post 82, YOU introduced him into the debate; stating that:
?Moyes record places him 6th on the table of Everton managers, just below the much- maligned Gordon Lee.?
My instinct told me that couldn?t be right, so I checked, discovering that Moyes?s win-ratio surpasses Lee?s and therefore your comment couldn?t be factually accurate.
I identified this in post 87. In 88, you accused me of making up statistics.
Then flip-flopped in post 90, by claiming you weren?t trying to draw comparison between the two, even though you already had 8 posts earlier.
So in post 92, I explained where my research could be found & verified. In 94 you mocked by source, before accusing me of ranting incoherently in post 97.
Undeterred, I immediately countered by just asking you to help resolve a simple factual dispute. You responded to this by suggesting that I was looking for attention!
I reiterated my request in post 105, asking you (again) to provide the evidence to back up your assertion, the original cause of our particular dialogue.
On to 106, where (eventually) you cited your reference point & invited me to check. This I did, where at the TOP of the page the author himself (no less) had scribed a cautionary caveat, admitting that his approach skewed the facts somewhat.
He then stated that Moyes IS above Lee, contradicting your argument, validating my instinct & pouring gallons of hot piss over your deliberate selectivity!
Post 107 saw your sleight-of-hand vilified.
In the light of this critical detail, and with absolutely no room in which to manoeuvre, you now retroactively asserted that my so-called disclaimer.. (Actually, no. YOUR OWN FUCKING SOURCE?S OWN WORDS, relayed by me) is ?merely a statement of the obvious.?
Actually, no, it isn?t. I checked 3 other stat sites & they all follow the same guidelines as Wkipedia.
Namely, a correct reporting of wins, draws & defeats, and the percentages of all, therein.
The ONLY reason for the disclaimer is that the author wanted to draw attention to his own, distinct system & didn?t want to confuse!
Turns out you were aware of the discrepancy all along. You failed to acknowledge it, knowing it would undermine your argument, as your own material disagrees with you!
To wit:
On points won: Moyes wins.
On win-ratio: Moyes wins.
On being economical with the truth: Dennis wins!
?Taxi..!!?
My ?obsession,? with Gordon Lee arose when in post 82, YOU introduced him into the debate; stating that:
?Moyes record places him 6th on the table of Everton managers, just below the much- maligned Gordon Lee.?
My instinct told me that couldn?t be right, so I checked, discovering that Moyes?s win-ratio surpasses Lee?s and therefore your comment couldn?t be factually accurate.
I identified this in post 87. In 88, you accused me of making up statistics.
Then flip-flopped in post 90, by claiming you weren?t trying to draw comparison between the two, even though you already had 8 posts earlier.
So in post 92, I explained where my research could be found & verified. In 94 you mocked by source, before accusing me of ranting incoherently in post 97.
Undeterred, I immediately countered by just asking you to help resolve a simple factual dispute. You responded to this by suggesting that I was looking for attention!
I reiterated my request in post 105, asking you (again) to provide the evidence to back up your assertion, the original cause of our particular dialogue.
On to 106, where (eventually) you cited your reference point & invited me to check. This I did, where at the TOP of the page the author himself (no less) had scribed a cautionary caveat, admitting that his approach skewed the facts somewhat.
He then stated that Moyes IS above Lee, contradicting your argument, validating my instinct & pouring gallons of hot piss over your deliberate selectivity!
Post 107 saw your sleight-of-hand vilified.
In the light of this critical detail, and with absolutely no room in which to manoeuvre, you now retroactively asserted that my so-called disclaimer.. (Actually, no. YOUR OWN FUCKING SOURCE?S OWN WORDS, relayed by me) is ?merely a statement of the obvious.?
Actually, no, it isn?t. I checked 3 other stat sites & they all follow the same guidelines as Wkipedia.
Namely, a correct reporting of wins, draws & defeats, and the percentages of all, therein.
The ONLY reason for the disclaimer is that the author wanted to draw attention to his own, distinct system & didn?t want to confuse!
Turns out you were aware of the discrepancy all along. You failed to acknowledge it, knowing it would undermine your argument, as your own material disagrees with you!
To wit:
On points won: Moyes wins.
On win-ratio: Moyes wins.
On being economical with the truth: Dennis wins!
?Taxi..!!?
Robbie Muldoon
124 Posted 21/10/2011 at 19:25:14
124 Posted 21/10/2011 at 19:25:14
I think, no matter how hard it may be for some to admit, but we are never going to see anything better from David Moyes. 10 years is long enough, we peaked with the side that had Lescott, Pienaar, Arteta, Cahill, Yakubu, Donovan et al.
We actually beat Sunderland 7-0 with that group of players, but I felt at the time and even more so now that we were a very good side despite David Moyes.
I think we are going back to the days of bottom half finishes and lowest ever league goals that Moyes has already delivered us.
We actually beat Sunderland 7-0 with that group of players, but I felt at the time and even more so now that we were a very good side despite David Moyes.
I think we are going back to the days of bottom half finishes and lowest ever league goals that Moyes has already delivered us.
Dennis Stevens
125 Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:21:05
125 Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:21:05
Great rant, Kevin. You are really excellent at discussing anything other than the matter in hand, which I thought was Moyes ? I wonder why you'd rather rave about anything but.
When I comented on our performance away to Sporting Lisbon, your response was to refer to Moyes entire career performance as Everton manager. When I quote you statistics showing that Moyes is one of a number of good managers we've had over the years, but certainly not one of the greats, you quibble about whther the statistics are based upon 2 or 3 points for a win , as if one prefered method elevates Moyes to the ranks of Kendall & Catterick.
I don't think that whether Moyes ranks between Lee & Bingham via the one method or Harvey & Royle is significant when evaluating his performance over the last decade. I've clearly explained this rather straight forward point in previous posts, if it's still beyond your comprehension then continue with your delusion.
When I comented on our performance away to Sporting Lisbon, your response was to refer to Moyes entire career performance as Everton manager. When I quote you statistics showing that Moyes is one of a number of good managers we've had over the years, but certainly not one of the greats, you quibble about whther the statistics are based upon 2 or 3 points for a win , as if one prefered method elevates Moyes to the ranks of Kendall & Catterick.
I don't think that whether Moyes ranks between Lee & Bingham via the one method or Harvey & Royle is significant when evaluating his performance over the last decade. I've clearly explained this rather straight forward point in previous posts, if it's still beyond your comprehension then continue with your delusion.
Kevin Hudson
126 Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:42:53
126 Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:42:53
Show's over, Dennis. Don't forget to tip your waitress..!
Dennis Stevens
127 Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:47:46
127 Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:47:46
Sorry 'Kevin', I hadn't realised you were a transexual.
Kevin Hudson
128 Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:55:02
128 Posted 21/10/2011 at 20:55:02
Fine. Thanks for the joust..
Trevor Mackie
129 Posted 21/10/2011 at 21:03:21
129 Posted 21/10/2011 at 21:03:21
Kevin Hudson
I watched Gordon Lee's teams and they were far from halcyon days, but they were a million times better than what Moyes puts out.
As mentioned by someone else he sold Duncan Mackenzie - in itself virtually a criminal act - but he never surrendered like Moyes.
I watched Gordon Lee's teams and they were far from halcyon days, but they were a million times better than what Moyes puts out.
As mentioned by someone else he sold Duncan Mackenzie - in itself virtually a criminal act - but he never surrendered like Moyes.
Kevin Hudson
130 Posted 21/10/2011 at 21:31:32
130 Posted 21/10/2011 at 21:31:32
I'll have to take your word for it, Trevor. Too young to watch them in the flesh..
I know the MacKenzie sale didn't go down well though!
I know the MacKenzie sale didn't go down well though!
Roman Sidey
131 Posted 22/10/2011 at 15:33:01
131 Posted 22/10/2011 at 15:33:01
Ian, I can't argue with anything that you've said in your response. It's sensible, but I still take the other side. Yes, teams do rebuild every few years, but that is not the point that me or many of us are making in regard Moyes' problems. When most teams rebulid, they also change they way they play depending on the players they have.
Moyes could play quite a few fluid formations and styles with the squad he has now, but he has persisted with his 4-5-1, which used to work, but now it doesn't.
The bottom line to all of this is that Moyes has some good players in the squad, he has some poor players in the squad, and he has players in the squad who are neither because he won't give them a chance. I know people will say that he sees them all in training so he knows best, but we see them week in week out in games, and I don't see how some of the untried players can do much worse than some of the 11 out there.
My personal opinion of the man at this point in time - if we lose to Fulham on Sunday, he has to walk. If he doesn't, then any credibility he still has is vanished.
Moyes could play quite a few fluid formations and styles with the squad he has now, but he has persisted with his 4-5-1, which used to work, but now it doesn't.
The bottom line to all of this is that Moyes has some good players in the squad, he has some poor players in the squad, and he has players in the squad who are neither because he won't give them a chance. I know people will say that he sees them all in training so he knows best, but we see them week in week out in games, and I don't see how some of the untried players can do much worse than some of the 11 out there.
My personal opinion of the man at this point in time - if we lose to Fulham on Sunday, he has to walk. If he doesn't, then any credibility he still has is vanished.
Dave Wilson
132 Posted 22/10/2011 at 16:26:36
132 Posted 22/10/2011 at 16:26:36
Kevin Hudson
I regularly watched Gordon Lee`s team.
They made Moyes boys look like Barcelona.
Even back in those days the playing field was tilted in favour of the rich, the only difference was, we were a rich club.
Lee not only sold Magic Duncan, he regularly left him out for "honest" players like Jim Pearson.The press christened us Lee`s Robots, When a group of journos asked him how he could even consider leaving a flair player like Magic Duncan out of the side, Lee famously pointed to the bottom of his kecks and said, thats the only flair that matters to me.
Meanwhile the shite seemed to be coming down Scottie Rd every ten minutes with a trophy. (including the big one)
There has NEVER been a worse time to be an Evertonian. The gobshites had a field day.
To be fair though fans were far less tolerant back then, Moyes doesnt know he`s born.
I once sat in a room filled with angry blues grilling Lee, It was meant to be a polite Q+A, but they were really laying into him.
Angry blue ) "Gordon, you said when you came here, that if you hadnt won a trophy in two years at a club like Everton you would consider yourself a failure"
Gordon Lee ) "Yes but" . . .
Angry blue ) "Save it Gordon, your two years are up . .Fuck off"
Very cruel, but it brought the house down
I regularly watched Gordon Lee`s team.
They made Moyes boys look like Barcelona.
Even back in those days the playing field was tilted in favour of the rich, the only difference was, we were a rich club.
Lee not only sold Magic Duncan, he regularly left him out for "honest" players like Jim Pearson.The press christened us Lee`s Robots, When a group of journos asked him how he could even consider leaving a flair player like Magic Duncan out of the side, Lee famously pointed to the bottom of his kecks and said, thats the only flair that matters to me.
Meanwhile the shite seemed to be coming down Scottie Rd every ten minutes with a trophy. (including the big one)
There has NEVER been a worse time to be an Evertonian. The gobshites had a field day.
To be fair though fans were far less tolerant back then, Moyes doesnt know he`s born.
I once sat in a room filled with angry blues grilling Lee, It was meant to be a polite Q+A, but they were really laying into him.
Angry blue ) "Gordon, you said when you came here, that if you hadnt won a trophy in two years at a club like Everton you would consider yourself a failure"
Gordon Lee ) "Yes but" . . .
Angry blue ) "Save it Gordon, your two years are up . .Fuck off"
Very cruel, but it brought the house down
Kevin Hudson
133 Posted 22/10/2011 at 22:28:43
133 Posted 22/10/2011 at 22:28:43
Great read that, Dave. Thanks for sharing.
Andy Crooks
134 Posted 22/10/2011 at 22:34:31
134 Posted 22/10/2011 at 22:34:31
Dave, I remember some pretty dire stuff under Gordon,particularly a Christmas home game against United when we got thumped 6-2. I recall correctly we got off to a good start that season and I thought we might win the league.
I also recall the magic moment when Lee raced on to the pitch to congratulate Bob Latchford on the last day of the season. If I remember right,it was his fourth goal in, I believe a 6-0 victory over Chelsea, Bob won, what was then a huge sum of money from the Daily Express for scoring 30 league goals in a season. I think it was £10k and my dad said the world had gone mad. Also I think he shared it with his team mates.
Odd how time polishes up the memories and makes one nostalgic for what was actually grim.
I also recall the magic moment when Lee raced on to the pitch to congratulate Bob Latchford on the last day of the season. If I remember right,it was his fourth goal in, I believe a 6-0 victory over Chelsea, Bob won, what was then a huge sum of money from the Daily Express for scoring 30 league goals in a season. I think it was £10k and my dad said the world had gone mad. Also I think he shared it with his team mates.
Odd how time polishes up the memories and makes one nostalgic for what was actually grim.
Trevor Mackie
135 Posted 22/10/2011 at 23:33:19
135 Posted 22/10/2011 at 23:33:19
Dave Wilson
"They made Moyes boys look like Barcelona."
Tell me you've made a mistake, you can't honestly be telling me you think that Moyes playing with one or no strikers was better than lee's much maligned team?
"They made Moyes boys look like Barcelona."
Tell me you've made a mistake, you can't honestly be telling me you think that Moyes playing with one or no strikers was better than lee's much maligned team?
Dave Wilson
136 Posted 24/10/2011 at 15:53:59
136 Posted 24/10/2011 at 15:53:59
Grim indeed Andy.
I still have clear memories of the Reds taunting us for sending our centre-half up front when we were losing, sometimes to replace the centre-forward, or worse still even starting with him up top.
I wish my memory was as selective as some peoples, then I too could pretend we always played with recognised strikers in those days.
Perhaps Moyes could have the present day RS taunting us again by employing what they used to call the "Mick Lyons operation desperation" tactic.
I still have clear memories of the Reds taunting us for sending our centre-half up front when we were losing, sometimes to replace the centre-forward, or worse still even starting with him up top.
I wish my memory was as selective as some peoples, then I too could pretend we always played with recognised strikers in those days.
Perhaps Moyes could have the present day RS taunting us again by employing what they used to call the "Mick Lyons operation desperation" tactic.
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1 Posted 18/10/2011 at 21:12:50
Next time I'm sat inside Goodison I will check under my seat for the flux capacitor and see if I can set the date to 1985 or 1966.