Postman's Knock

So wide of the mark on places it's embarassing. Don't know where to start except to say the quality players we no longer have such as as Pienaar, Arteta, (and Lescott) as well as those you say have lost their spark ? Cahill, Baines and Coleman were brought in by Moyes for next to nothing. There have been others.

DM is being let down by the club because his hands are tied. End of. However, we do have to stop feeling sorry for ourselves now because, if we do, we are still better than over 2/3rds of this league, so relegation should not be an issue.

As usual from Tony, not much that you can really argue with.

Nah, Peter, I agree that Tony's post is a tad bit excessive, but to suggest that it's all beyond Moyes' control? Can't agree with that.

Yes, he had to sell our "quality" players, but he was also the one who brought in our existing crop of stinkers, plus the players whom he's bought but feels they're not worthy of a starting place at all, which begs the question: why buy them in the first place?

Not only that, he has a tendency to play off-form players, players in wrong positions, use the wrong substitutes when we're behind, and not have a Plan B when Plan A hasn't worked. These issues have all been covered many times over on this site, and they're all valid criticisms of Moyes.

It may be that "relegation should not be an issue" as you pointed out - or it may not. We can't be 100% sure of that. Also, 6 defeats in 7 games: that's a poor, poor return for ANY manager. Why should we accept that when fans of other, smaller clubs don't? In this, I think Tony's has a point: it's just as bad as the Smith years, because if not, then when does it actually become bad enough? Relegation?

There was a time when I thought Tony Marsh's post were complete and utter vitriol sprouted by a bitter "someone has nicked me last rollo" nutter.

Over the last 2 -3 years more and more posters are coming round to his way of thinking and I would say the lion-share agree with him.

Is it too harsh to call him the Prophet of Doom as he foretold this season's ago.

Any chance of the Euromillions number for 16/06/2013 Tony???

Can't disagree, although wasn't it the Jain Group not Tata. Small point as I agree it was all BS from the Meister Billy K regardless of whatever name was mooted. I would like to have judged Moyes properly having seen him work with a decent budget, but now worry that even with money he wouldn't know what to do tactically given his consistently awful team selections and substitutions. His mood sets the mood for the whole Club and he looks one miserable so and so at the moment and has done for a while. It's no surprise that Jags is finally admitting morale is low; we all saw it weeks ago. The Club needs fresh impetus from top to bottom so it's such a shame we have such an egotistical maniac in charge who will clearly have to be dragged screaming into Goodison Road to get shut of him.

Moyes signed Nigel Martyn. Smith couldn't get a team consisting of the others you named anywhere near the top 6 let alone the top 4.

I cannot argue about the crying and moaning before we play a 'big' team. It's embarrassing.

Like you said,QPR and Swansea just get on with it so why can't we?

It doesn't exactly inspire confidence when your manager speaks as though we are beaten even before kick-off.

Martyn a Moyes signing. We also had Arteta replacing Gravesen in January '05. Beattie and Bent. Kilbane, McFadden (so good he bought him twice) and Yobo. Li Tie was good too before he knackered himself.

Nick @8 ? Beattie signed the season after we finished 4th. His first game for Everton was against Villarreal at Goodison... another Balls up.

Moyes had the option to sign both Darren Bent from Ipswich an Dean Ashton both the hottest young strikers in the country at the time; Moyes chose overweight waster Beattie for the same price we could've paid for the other two?

Li Tie ? are you having a laugh? ... Don't forget it was season 04-05 we went 4th ? not 05-06. The season after we qualified for 4th spot was awfull.

More schpiel from Kenshite, amazing how he wheels these 'phantom takeover talks' when the next protest from the BU is around the corner. Or is it that when any potential owner seeks and interest in Everton the conversation goes:

Bidder - How much do you want for Everton?

Kenshite - It's not for sale - TATA!

Plucked the name out of thin air I reckon. The loon needs hounding out of Goodison. I can sense the pressure is building and gathering pace!

How many more of your "I'm fucking sick of it" posts are you going to do?

I was interseted in the first part of your post and then it turned into your formulaic attack on Moyes and the "I'm fed up of it all" line.

You have been saying that we are shite and doomed ever since I found this site, which was about 5/6 years ago. If you keep on saying it, who knows? one day you may actually get it right. The way the board is bleedng the club dry, I fear it will be sooner rather than later.

One last point, Coleman has never been a silk purse, the Lower Gwladys wouldn't be shouting run Forest run, every time he gets the ball if he was.

Let's have some realism please. Blame the board, yes, but was it Moyse's fault that Saha and Coleman both missed open goals in the first half at Newcastle? Was it his fault that Heitinga and Howard screwed up for the opening goal? Saha hit the post in that same half too, so had the players at least done what is expected of highly paid pro's in front of goal, we should have gone in at half-time at least 3-2 up!

At least we were creating chances against a so-called "well organised unit". We created as many chances as we did against Fulham, where the result was so different. It's a fine line...

Having said that, it is worrying to hear bleatings of "low morale" in the squad from the likes of Jagielka.

The time to worry in earnest is if we fail to get full points in the next 2 games. Wolves and Bolton are showing signs of revival. 6 points from those games would put us back in the top half and might spark the successful run we need up to Christmas. Less than that and we are looking at a struggle in the lower half of the table...

I`ll agree with Tony (did I really write that?) that too many of our current players seem well past their best and that the team needs a real freshening up, and that can`t happen without a considerable injection of cash.

Where he continues to be wrong is in his condemnation of Moyes going back to 2004-05. The man has worked miracles (and been well paid for doing so) throughout his time here and only now is he beginning to show the strain. He may well now think he`s been too loyal for too long!

Do you not think we are totally stale as a club Tony? When i say that I mean right from the very top down. BK and his band of merry men are the ones most culpable in the extreme and now, and i didnt think i would say this Moyes should share some blame.

Every club year in and year out freshens things up or is automatically given a boost by promotion (see Swanse, Norwich and QPR).

Not only are we unable to freshen things up due to being piss poor we actually no are going backwards with the sales of key players who are criminally not replaced.

I agree with many who say Moyes should get out of his downbeat dour mood and say you know what lets have a go. We are Everton and at the very least we are going to come and take the game to you where we can. Not this stale percentages, everyone behind the ball football which is designed in the first instance not to lose a game.

How many of us would buy in to this approach? I would say every one of us. If we get the odd spanking then I will have to deal with it but at least we would be having a go.

So over to you Moyes, time to justify the £65k a week. Get the lads in tell them its us agains the rest and we are going to have a go. Just watch and see the response it may just surprise you

Tony Williams, yes we all know that Tony Marsh has a now clearly defined view. Tony M's words are often geared towards generating emphasis - but my view is that Tony M is passionate and frustrated - and you have to say, he has been consistent and perhaps, just perhaps he has seen the sitaution that we now face coming to us earlier than most.

Fact is, this website is reflective of human behaviour. The propensity to put "pen to paper" to complain has always been far higher than doing the same to praise.

No disrespect to Michael and Lyndon (it is an excellent site), the groundhog day we experience on matchday is repeated on this site week after week. We are all arguing the same thing day in day out. We just go around in circles. I admit it and I contribute to it!

Nothing will change because the majority of fans (who do not contribute to this site) are prepared to accept the situation. That too is depressing as NSNO has gone west it would seem.

When I hear Richard Dodd herald a desire for a change of management that would be the best barometer that things are finally on the wane for the present management team (Kenwright and Moyes).

Until then...we can just carry on and express our frustration I guess.

The thing that pisses me off about all these that shout about Moyes' lack of funds is look at what he does when he does have money. There seems to be this defence of Moyes because he doesn't have money to spend and therefore he'd be a much better manager if a rich owner came in.

Now I'm not saying he shouldn't have any sort of transfer budget and Kenwright should hang his head in shame for his complete mismanagement. But when Moyes sold Lescott, he bought Bily and Heitinga. Two players who've spent the majority of their time on the bench. When you're skint you can't afford to have £15-16 million worth of players not in the team.

And what happens when they're in the team? Bily is by far our worse player. I honestly think fat Barry who sits behind me in the Park End telling everyone to sit down because his knees can't take standing up all the time would have played better than Bily against Man U. And what about Heitinga? Absolute fucking shite against Newcastle and in the end cost us the game. You can see why Moyes leaves them on the bench.

What about turning down an offer of £8 million for Saha only to sell Arteta for £10 milion? What about buying Yak for £11 million then selling him for £1 million?

So if a rich owner did come in, why does Moyes deserve a chance? He doesn't deserve anything. I'd love to hear chants round Goodison of "You don't know what you're doing" aimed at Moyes. I blame him as much as Kenwright for the complete mess we're in.

Haha, identifying it wasn't Moyes team will cause mass flouncing at the Pier Head - the whole Moyes myth is based upon him creating a treble winning side - sorry coming 4th.

What a shit excuse this "you've always said it....maybe one day you'll be right" is. If you can't see the blindingly obvious about Moyes now you never will. Winston Churchill had much the same response when he was saying the Germans look a bit miffed some years before they piled into Poland.
It's about time supporters got a grip about Moyes as for Kenwright it's just beyond a joke what that lad's up to - greedy git. But as I keep saying you have to go through Moyes to get at Kenwright.

Let me see if I can figure it out...Moyes arrives and finishes 4th with largely the same squad Wally couldn't get out of the bottom 6. Somehow this is a criticism of David Moyes????

But the real gem is describing Seamus Coleman as a "silk purse"...yeah it really is amazing how we convinced him to jump ship from the mighty Sligo Rovers where he had been applying his silkly skills. I hear Pep at Barcelona still can't believe he missed out.

I'm with James #13, its all going round in circles now, so I'm invoking Godwin's Law due to Trevor Mackie's post.

Discussion closed... I'm now off to kneel on my David Moyes prayer mat.

Kneeling - how apt regarding Moyes

Tony, doesn't Ta ta stand for tarawell? See yer sometime, Good riddens, Au revoir etc etc. Maybe Billy actually asked them who they were as they were leaving and they said Ta Ta!

Now, what does Jain sound like????

"What a shit excuse this "you've always said it....maybe one day you'll be right" is"

Trevor, he has been singing the same tune, even when we qualified for Europe. He disappears when we have our usualy good run.

I have no problem with his musing at all, they are entertaining and they certain get posters posting but he has been wrong more times than right, yet when we have our bad spell, out he pops with his little Marshette followers saying how right he was and how bad a manager Moyes is.

Apart from his Hibbert, Osiie bashing, he never blames the players... why? These are the ones on the field who are letting the team, the manager and the fans down.

As oft stated, both Moyes and the players are to blame, I respond to defend Moyes, only in the sense to spread the blame, not to dump it all on his doorstep.

I don't know why Tony's heralded on this site for his foresight. As he never tires of telling us, he wanted Moyes out in 2006 and could see the direction Everton were headed back then. I'm not sure that's true but anyone with half a clue about football and money could see years ago that, without huge investment, Everton were always going to reach the point where we stagnated, good players got old or were sold and we began to drop down the league.

I haven't watched many games this year but I gather that we've been quite unlucky and deserve to have picked up more points than we have. Sendings off, own goals, missed open goals. I don't blame the manager for these occurrences.

Players aren't performing but that's responsibility of the manager. Again and again, he gets caught out in the summer napping. Lescott summer - buries his head and hopes it goes away, season we signed Neville last minute.

This close season - he needed to identify a striker and a creator and get some funds in to do this. To be fair, he got drenthe as a creator but let arteta go so he needed somebody else. On top of that he let two forwards go , oh yeah as well as Yobo on loan. A disgarce in my view without replacing them.

I know people say his hands are tied, not strictly true. Sell Jags, Arteta, sell Baines, billy, Heitinga, whomever and get money in and get a team to compete. The team must become before individuals no matter how good they are. Instead, Moyes sat there, hopes that we'll be bought out and all our problems go away and ends up getting caught yet again with his pants down.

Not good management of the club at all.

Tony, Beattie was signed in January of 04-05. His first game was when he got sent off for inexplicably headbutting Gallas against Chelsea.

Phil you beat me to it. But that Chelsea game wasn't his debut either.

He played in the F.A Cup in January and a few league games before that ridiculous sending off.

"Players aren't performing but that's responsibility of the manager" - How's that then? usually a manager can bench someone if they are playing cack, Moyes doesn't have the squad to do that.
Next you will say that the low numbers is his fault, I have a feeling that if money was there, there would be a healthier amount of better squad players at his dispposal.

If his "core" players aren't performing, who does he replace them with? the new loan signings or the kids who have come through the youth system?
"Again and again, he gets caught out in the summer napping" - You can't buy anyone when you have no money. He didn't want to sell Lescott and hoped he wouldn't have to.

He didn't want to sell Arteta and there wasn't even an offer for him until the last day of the transfer window followed by a written transfer request, what's he supposed to do with the £10m at 11:55pm?

The only time where he had money early on, he bought AJ and then he bought Yakubu, who had their best time in their careers and then got injured and he got rid.

"and get some funds in to do this", It's as easy as that, is it?

Lee and Phil @ 24 & 25 ? You're right, Beattie was brought in in the January of 04-05 season when we were well clear in the CL berths. We limped across the line with a couple of wins in the 2nd half of the season...

We can nitpick but what I am saying is the spine of the team and most of the squad that year when we qualified were Smith's players... End of.

Tony, to be fair Moyes could have rasied some funds in the summer. He got a 13-15m bid from Arsenal for Jagielka. Had he been able to keep this cash (an if admittedly) this could have been used to bring in another CB for less and play JH more at CB and maybe someone like Krancjar from spurs (3m) and striker (e.g. DJ campbell only cost QPR 1.9m i believe). Added to that players like Larsson were on a free.

Also why did we not get rid of Anichebe instead of Beckford, if the papers are to be believed, Leceister were interested in both.

Lots of ifs and buts but it was not out of the managers ability to sell one of his more prized assets to bring in an extra 2-3 players. Not easy but not impossible either.

We have what we have until Jan so will have to see what the scottich rooney can do.

Tony, its your argument, kinda falls apart when you ignore the facts.

8, maybe more, of Moyes' purchases played a significant role in that season.

He had of course only been in charge for 18 months up to the season's opener. I'm not sure what you believe this tells us about Moyes or why its relevant today, but you seem to be sure of something.

Oh, Li Tie was great when hitting 4th. It was the following season he went crook.

Tony #26 Moyes has been guilty of playing the same players even when he had a squad you don't have to go back far either, just last season Saha hadn't scored a goal in over a year before he started scoring and he left Beckford and Yakubu on the bench to rot with the former getting scraps of time as cameos. Last season he played Arteta stinking the place out until his ban the next game we played City without him and romped it. This season he's played Cahill injured with other players on the bench, surely an injury is never going to heal if its played on?

Tony (28) I wouldn?t worry too much about the Anichebe versus Beckford transfer conundrum! One goal in the championship all season versus no goals and injured all season. I think that decision is the least of our worries?

Sorry, meant to say Denis (28)

I've mentioned this before, and its the one thing that has always baffled me.
When things are going well, Moyes is given all the plaudits on here, how great he is because he's doing it with no money etc.

But when things are going shite, and anyone criticises him, Its not his fault, its because we've got no money.

So, Moyes does shite, its because he has no money, he does well, he's great, and he's doing it without any money.

Brian, most reasonable posters are not arguing it's not his fault.

They are arguing against the ridiculous amount of crap that he gets blamed for and some of it is not his fault.

The man is flawed, there is no doubt about that, but so are the players and the board and they should be sharing the blame too.

As most can obviously see, I think the players get away far too easy on here and the blame is shifted all on Moyes. that is the part I argue against and called an apologist for.

Tony , 26# - I consider myself a reasonable poster and indeed you appear reasonable too.

But you seem to be making excuses and even at 32 years of age, I've seen it loads of times before with everton and could see what was going to happen a mile off. It always happens, I'm sick to death of it, why I gave my season ticket up after not missing a home match for over 16 years.
I'm sure Moyes is cleverer than I and also know what was in store.

We've sold crucial players on last day (or near enough) on last day of transfer window before, Rooney, Lescott etc. It was clear to me that at least one of four players would be sold - Arteta, fellani, Baines or Jags. It was clear to me that this would happen, to at least one, on last day of window and that EFC would then say, oh we didn't get chance to buy anybody at this late stage.

Moyes should have prepared. With Lescott, he signed Distin - not too bad but ill prepared and paid way too much for him, consider his age and what dire straits portsmouth were in.

Moyes should have foreseen earlier last season he was going to have to sell some assets to reinvest in team. Indeed, he acknowledged this by lettnig Piennar go. He knew he would have no money to invest, but stobbornly refused - his choice. But I think he made the wrong choice. He could have sold Jags or Baines - I suspect he could well have sold Fellaini for big money too.

To say the situation wasn't his making I totally disagree. Moyes knows we have no money but chose not to sell arteta the season before and give him and Cahill massive contracts. He also chose not to sell Piennar. All this was because, he felt we would get into top 4 or even challenge for the league.

He got it wrong - I don't mind this, he took a calculated risk. But to say it's all the board's fault is wrong. He knows what the position is and chooses to keep his team intact. Again, up to him, but if team is not performing, like it isn't this season, then yes it is his fault.

Finally, yes, it is part, if not the most crucial part of the manager's job to get players to perform. This, together with moyes ability to spot and recruit gems of players cheaply have been his biggest assets over the years.

Would have more respect for the OP if he piped up when things were going well. Some people just thrive on misery!

Have to admit that i'm not feeling as chipper as usual about things blue but we have just come off the back of playing 5 of the top 6. in our last 6 or so games. And been unlucky not to get a bit more in my opinion.

I guess what i'm saying is lets see where we are after the next 6 games. If we are still in 17th then i will begin to give the moaners a little more credence.

There was plenty you could have ripped Moyes for over these past few months.

You've picked a load of drivel that doesn't add up.

I'm suprised even MK published this nonsense.

Tony M, surely the fact that Moyes got "Walter Smith's team" to 4th when Smith could hardly get them out of the bottom six is more a compliment to Moyes' ability than anything?

Nick, I am sure it was 2002-03 (Moyes' first full season) that Li Tie played regularly and only played a handful of games afterwards.

Tony J, you may be on to something about timing of articles. Now if only some "apologist" anorak would do a comparison of Tony Marsh articles versus EFC's form / league position over the last 6 or so years.

The first two paragraphs of Tony J's post (no. 10) sum up my feelings on this article.

You're right Noel.

Li Tie was very good in his first season with us(02-03).

After that he barely played due to injury then we sold him to Sheff Utd.

Sorry to nitpick Tony but some of the things in your article are just incorrect.

Even you must admit that getting that team to 4th spot was one hell of an achievement.

Imagine even we had been drawn against someone like TNS that year(like Liverpool were) rather than Villareal. If only eh?

Tony - you are talking out of your hoop lad !!

Lee @39, I may be wrong but isn't first round opponents something to do with history in the competition? Like I said, I may be talking twadle.

The final straw for me was going to bottom-of-the-table West Ham last season, with Yak and Beckford on the bench.

I can't afford many games these days, I haven't been to Goodison for over 2 years, I got sick of the predictable shite being served up. The last 7 times I've been to Goodison under Moyes, Everton haven't even scored. I can still picture it now: Everton 0 Portsmouth 3 and Jags in midfield.

All you anti Marsh brigade wake up and smell the coffee. Tony along with myself can no longer acccept this shite which most definitely is worse than the shite served up by Walter Smith.

I saw the 80's... brilliant. I saw the 90's... shite. I saw the Smith era... again shite and I have seen the Moyes era... totally fucking soul destroying. So before you criticise Tony Marsh think long long back. If you ain't old enough to have seen the blue brazil under Kendall ask yar dad or mar!

"Moyes had the option to sign both Darren Bent from Ipswich and "Dean Ashton" both the hottest young strikers in the country at the time;"

Dean Ashton...the guy who retired at the age of 27???

The Moyes haters must be in their element at the minute, they must have rubbed their hands in delight when they saw the fixture list with a run consisting of Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Man United.
Seeing us lose in all those fixtures, its disappointing...throw in Newcastle,those were games we picked up 11 points out of 15 last season. Teams have tough periods, we are having one now. I would have liked us to have had a similar return as last season...but we haven't. Most teams in this league will drop plenty of points to the teams ive just mentioned. If we are in a similar position come January...then i'll be worried...but seeing our fixtures until then...doesnt really worry me. We will pick up a decent tally of points by then.

Tony no need to stick your head up your arse as you are, as usual, talking out of yours.

You seem to only Come out of hibernation when things are getting bad, almost as though you thrive on it.

We have just been through a horrendous run of fixtures, so I'd prefer to judge Moyes at Christmas and see if we are still in the bottom 4 then.

Nice to see you pick out Hibbert and Osman (as per usual). Hibbert was actually one of the better of a bad bunch on Saturday. Coleman was abysmal constantly giving the ball away. Saha was lazy. Drenthe drifted in and out of the game. Howard didn't command his area. Heitinga was appalling and Baines was constantly out of position and giving the ball away too.. But let's highlight your own personal whipping boys.

And as for suggesting Moyes has had more money to spend than Smith - it is bollocks.

You then use Moyes 4th place finish as a criticism of him as he did it with "Smith's squad." Well that just highlights how shite Smith was in comparison then doesn't it?

To compare Moyes record to Smith's simply ignores the facts, but again this is true to form for you.

Moyes has had 2 bottom half finishes but mostly top 7. Smith finished bottom 7 as a matter of course.

Listen I'm as upset and fecked off as the next man at present but I don't come on here spouting negative bollocks as though I seemingly enjoy it. So, Tony, do us all a favour and go and lock yourself in a cupboard for a few months.

#44 Chris Leyland

Take a bow son.

Chris @44 It gives me no pleasure to see Everton in this situation ? why should it? Just as it gives me no pleasure to see us playing like a Sunday League team. Saying that, most Sunday League teams have a bit of bottle about them... I don't get it ? what should we do? Just sit back and lap this shite up and say fuck all?

The way this club conducts itself both on and off the pitch is a disgrace these days and has been for a long while. We play in a cowardly fashion and Moyes is to blame for that. We shun flair and skill for graft and obedience. That's down to Moyes. We are regular fall guys for the Big Boys and Minnows. That too is down to Moyes.

The only reason I mention Smith and his ex-players back in 04-05 is because, every time someone posts an article people like you don't like, they get the "Would you rather we had Smith back?" routine which is a moron's reply.

"I've seen enough poor Everton sides in the past to know this isn't one of them" ? so what's wrong then, Smart arse? Why are we near the bottom with the look of a condemned men hanging over us... It's because of the manager isnt it??? Jesus ? what will it take to wake you people up? Can it be any more grim before you do take your head out of your arse...

Can I point out the obvious to you all missed by so many about this fictional run of tough games. Every team will meet each other twice this season, the order of those games has no bearing whatsoever if you lose them or fail to go out with a pre-match defeatist attitude, whether you play them all at once or across the season, the end result of losing 6 out of the 7 remains the same.

Gavin - are you seriously saying that our recent run wasn't hard? Playing the team who will be champions? Playing possibly all four teams who will make up the four CL positions? And probably playing 5 of the top 7 come the end of the season?

That is a hard run.

Yes all clubs have to play those 5 but when done spread out over the season it doesn't distort the view.

Is our current form good enough. No. Are we happy about being 17th? No.

However the real panic time would be in 4 games time if we've not picked up form and points

Ok gavin, but what people are failing to realize is that say for arguments sake we started the season with the following fixtures -
Man united (a)
Liverpool (a)
Man City (a)
Chelsea (a)
Arsenal (a)
Spurs (a)
(hypothetical...i know we wouldnt ever play 6 away games straight)
99% of people would think that we would be bottom of the league after those 6 fixtures. Going by what you are saying, we are going to have played those fixtures by the end of the season anyway...so a tough run of fixtures shouldn't matter...as we still would have probably lost 6 out of 6. But those 99% of people would be foolish to think that we would finish bottom of the league at the end of the season. My point being, that every team will drop points against those teams in those particular fixtures...it will have no real bearing on where we end up finishing if we are being realistic. We have only played 11 fixtures and have the tough ones out the way. Our fixtures up to 2012 look ok.

Tony Marsh # 8.

You're incorrect about Beattie, he DID sign the season we finished 4th in the January. He made his debut for us at Plymouth in the FA Cup 3rd round and did generally stink the place out for nearly all of his career here.

Liam and Nathan, six losses over the course of a season or six losses one after the other equal exactly the same points. I'm trying to point out that the simple run of them consecutively has no bearing whatsoever if the results are the same over the season.

If you lose one game a month over six months or over six weeks you are still down all those points, the excuse they came altogether simply magnifies the manner in which those losses occured but make no difference if the will or fight was missing. Use the same argument, imagine if the games draw at the start of next season had those seven games as our run in, how would that sit? The argument being, you can only play against the team in front of you over 90 minutes and then forget about that game and play the next. The run is a poor excuse.

Liam Appleby, I can't accept that there are any Evertonians who looked at the fixture list and rubbed their hands with delight at the prospect of losing these games.A totally ludicrous and unfair comment.

Gavin, I understand what you are saying, but if we are to play a number tough games in a row just after the start of the season that would imply that we are indeed in a false position, if indeed we are a top half team. But we do not have the beauty of hindsight in the present moment.

Secondly, if the order of fixtures does not matter, then the notion of form is a fallacy, and as such team morale would not be a further issue.

I would however, much prefer to play Utd after winning three on the bounce than going on a losing run against similar placed teams.

Your thinking would work if games were won on the toss of a coin, but we deal with the much flawed homosapien.

Joe *41 - I think you might be right mate. I am not sure but it does ring a bell.

Anyway,it was still very bad luck to get drawn against the side that went all the way to the semi-finals.

MK and editorial team.

Quick question regarding the Tony Marsh syndrome of posts that seem to spew up as soon as Everton spew up.

Do you guys generate this bollox using a pseudonym as a Mr. Tony Marsh? The original post is pure one sided shite and does not deviate, factual or otherwise, beyond kicking Moyes arse. Tony Marsh does not talk about the football - how he see's it. I mean for fuck sake Osman and Hibbert are not the core of the team, they never have been, but that's all Mr Marsh talks about - you know, Moyes's favourite players. Yet going back, say 18 months, Osman and HIbbert would have got no futher than the bench when we had a fit first 11 - unfortunately times have now seriously changed.

Over the past ten years there's been a lot going on at Goodison, a lot of good games, a lot of great victories - but Mr Marsh fucks those games right off and talks about Hibbert and Osman tossing games away.

So guys ...?

Mike there has been a lot of good stuff over the last ten years. Unfortunately, over the last ten weeks there has been awful stuff with little sign of change. That's why some people are pissed off. What's wrong with that?
The good stuff has earned David Moyes time. The crap starts every year are hard to explain without criticising the manager. His time and reservoir of goodwill are running out.

Ok so people have a problem with some of Tony's facts and opinions.

I'm waiting and keen to see any major positives going forward.

How is this club going to move forward as a force in the Premier League. Or are we now just hoping some of our academy players come through and let us survive at the bottom of the table in the next few years.

Seriously..those in a positive mood give me something to look for.

Back in my apologist days, I used to get pissed off reading posts by Mr Marsh. I thought he was always overly negative, and overly critical of our manager who, at the time, I believed was doing a very good job for our club.

I used to be able of forgive Moyes for the shite football we played because I felt that the end (consistent top 6 finishes) justified the means.

I was pretty optimistic, believing that a couple of decent aquisitions could make us a quality side that just might play some quality football, and become serious contenders for some silverware.

I acknowledge that Moyes has had his hands tied somewhat by our financial woes. However, our team is starting to stagnate so much that they are really starting to stink the place out... and this has nothing to do with finances and everything to do with tactics and attitude.

Tony was on to it years ago. Moyes' teams play unattractive, defensive rubbish. At the time he stood out as being an angry pessimistic grumpy old bastard because the majority of us were happy with winning more than we lost, and regular appearances in the European places.

But lets face it, we were, and still are so one dimensional and clueless going forward at times that it is embarassing. Moyes hasn't got a plan B. He has had ten years to come up with one. How many players you would consider "flair" players has he signed in ten years? How many wide players with genuine pace has he signed in ten years? How many strikers in ten years have improved or thrived under his management?

There has to come a time when we say enough is enough. My time has come. Tony's time came about 7 years ago. It's time for a change and some fresh ideas while we've still got a talented squad that could yet come good with the right tactics and with a manager who is prepared to "have a go" and inject some positivity into them. I just feel that Moyes is draining the life out of us.

Those of you who still believe in "The Moyesiah" should join the AA (Apologists Anonymous). We can help you. Tony is our leader.

I've been involved in the running of this website for quite a few years now. But it's only recently that I have come to grasp and indeed appreciate the breadth of the Evertonian spectrum. By that, I mean the vast range in diverse opinions, viewpoints, attitudes, feelings, reactions, etc offered up by our readership. The religious term is a "broad church".

I'm finding that religion is an increasingly appropriate analogy for what we are all doing here. There is a basic belief in the club we support and have pledged our allegiance to; yet the fudemental logic behind the belief and faith we proclaim is at best questionable when examined dispassionately under the cold light of day... but we fiercely protect the central tenets of our faith against all foreign infidels and godless heathens who question our devotion; we have low to zero tolerance for those of other faiths who support other clubs.

We even split into sects within our own faith, and turn on each other at the slightest provocation ? one recent classic from Dave Wilson being the claim that another so-called fan whom he had grown to thoroughly despise, had, by purchasing a ticket for the 2009 Cup Final, deprived a more deserving Evertonian of a seat at the highest altar!!!

Now to an extent, what I describe flies in the face of one of the unspoken tenets of Evertonianism: the belief that we are all the same, all think the same, all want the same for the club.

It's confusing because we can watch the game together, join in the same chants, laugh at the same jokes, react the same to injustices and moments of brilliance we see on the field. Part of this is crowd psychology coming into play; while we each remain individuals within that crowd which, for 90 minutes or more, appears to be united as one ? singing, as it were, from the same hymn-sheet.

I firmly believe, though, that we are all individuals, and we each prosecute our faith in our own way. Now that can cause problems for the organized religion. Which is where some sects establish strict rules to enforce conformity, and work to ostracize and outcast those we do not conform.

A bit like the Official Website, where a rosy, problem-free outlook on all aspects of our religion is encouraged, no matter what, and naysayers are quickly silenced.

Then there's us here at ToffeeWeb. Often maligned for "having an agenda" "wallowing in negativity" "only publishing bad news" ? yet we are, more and more, driven by what the readership thinks... and less and less influenced by what the editors think.

Yes, Lyndon and I still write match reports... but precious little else. We are trying to make this more and more a website for the fans, where they know they can come and throw their opinions in the crucible for trial by fire from the searing critique of their fellows.

Most of you understand and respect that. As a result, most of what is submitted gets (cleaned up in some cases and) published for the congregation to mull over and throw stones, brickbats and garlands at, as the fancy takes them. The one thing we draw the line at is the abuse of fellow Evertonians.

And then there's Tony Marsh. [Finally, I get to the point!] I occasionally have time to write contemplative missives like this one... but what I don't have time to do is to construct some elaborate persona designed to foment angst and anger in equal measure ? I'm really not that clever. Seriously, could any of you faithfully and repeatedly produce an internally consistent set of postings emanating from some entirely falsified persona masquerading under the name of Tony Marsh???

Get real! ... He is real. Perhaps he's our Rasputin.

[In the interested of fairness, giving Mr Wilson the right to reply here ? Webmaster]

Michael

You misrepresent me.

I do not despise anybody, certainly not fellow Evertonians.

I do however despise the name calling often aimed at Evertonians who support this current manager and his team.

I believe it's inherently wrong for a guy who regularly insults people who support this manager to take up one of the much sort-after seats when the team reach a cup final. Was Moyes still not in charge?

To then go back to insulting the people he was at Wembley with whilst declaring himself to be somebody who will not pay to see Moyes`s team is also in my opinion very wrong... and I said so at the time.

I get annoyed with people who get all Gwladys Knight on us and forget we have watched shite football for all but 3-4 of the past 40 seasons... But DESPISE them???

If I ever met the guy I had this particular dispute with, the first thing I would do would be to buy him a pint .. then I`d tell him I STILL think he was wrong

The thing with Moyes, is that the man has never changed. He was named Dithering Dave at Preston, and that is what he is. He had is chance last summer, and he bottled it. We all knew we needed Donavon and a decent striker to push on. Its all so maddeningly frustrating because, we knew we were genuinely close to being a top side. Now a top class manager would have sacrificed one of Rodwell, Arteta or Fella and brought in Donavon and the striker.Hate to say it but Old Harry at Spurs would have sorted that situation no problem. Identify the weakness...no money...sacrifice...bring in whats needed. Serious players in any buisness or field make fucking big decisions and take risks because they have talent and back themselves. David Moyes is not good enough to manage Everton Football Club.

Mike #55: Wah hahahah, "Tony Marsh syndrome of posts" - brilliant! Does that mean there's a Richard Dodds syndrome of posts, too? Fair's fair, right?

I totally agree with Matt - especially the bit where he says "It's all so maddeningly frustrating......" I think that sums up David Moyes - he is so frustrating. I know that others have said Vellios was given a chance against Chelsea, that Strac has been brought on as sub. However I don't really think both players have been given a fair " crack of the whip". It seems as far as David Moyes is concerned strikers have to make an immediate impact - I recall when we first signed Peter Eastoe I thought he doesn't look much good - yet after a settling in period he started to " look the part" and it was his goals that kept us up when Latchford missed half of 1980-81.

There have been many players who didn't make an immediate impact - yet went on to be good players for Everton. Moyes persists with the same old boring tactics yet players who have potential does he persist with them ? Yet the media seem to think of him as a good manager for " bringing through young talent". They obviously have missed his treatment of Barkley.

The next match I would like to see a postive, attacking mood from our team. What do you reckon ? I would hope for us to play 2 strikers - but my money is on 4-5-1................yet again!!!

Joe McMahon@41
You say "I may be wrong but isn't first round opponents something to do with history in the competition?"
That may be true but don't forget, the rules were changed to allow the RS back into the competition. That should NEVER have happened and just shows how corrupt football has become, allowing a team back in because they will make more money for UEFA.

Chris how has Moyes not had more money than Smith? Relative or otherwise?

Oh my Rants.....never a truer anagram.

"He had is chance last summer, and he bottled it. We all knew we needed Donavon and a decent striker to push on" - Where was the transfer fee and wages coming from? last season we brought in a free transfer and a couple of kids with a collective £300,000. A "decent" striker will be in the tens of millions and after the World Cup Donovan's stock was high and you were looking at £7-10m for him, that's about £7-10m more than we could afford.

Dithering Dave? he puts in his request for who he wants then it's the boards job to go out and get them. Moyes will have a interview with the player bigging up the club but he has nothing to do with the money side, that's all the board.

Ok Tony Williams...you say Moyes is a manager with his faults. Could you please share what you perceive those faults to be.
Thanks

That's Tony J Williams b.t.w

Too defensive on corners, won't leave a man on the half way line.

Too loyal to his "core players" and would rather play then through their bad patch than drop them.

Too predictable with his substitutes.

Doesn't shout at Jags enough following the inevitable hoof into the corner, this ties in with point 2 as Jags has been stinking the place out.

Doesn't forgive and forget - The Yak, Beckford, Yobo etc.

What's the point of this exercise James? What does my perception have to do with Marshy's predictable appearance and rants following a bad spell and his usual disappearance when we start playing better?

In the same vein that some get fed up with me "defending" Moyes, I get fed up with the player apologists on here. The players never get blamed for all the simple things that they cock up, apart from Vic, Hibbert and Ossie, that is.

Tony,

Thanks for your response. Genuinely, no angle here, just keen to hear your thoughts.

Your comments aren't to dissimilar to how many of us view Moyes's failings to be. My point (shared by some, but not all, I appreciate) is that it is the repetitiveness and longevity of these failings that now lead us to question whether Moyes's tenure should now draw to a close.

I am not saying these failings have spanned 10 years. That's wrong and unfair. But they do seem to have been present for a number of seasons. That's the key here. Is Moyes addressing his failings?

My desire for him to go has been accelerated considerably by his demeanour and public negativity this season. I accept that he has a tough brief. I accept that we have to be realistic and that the players and board have responsibility too. However, I have no truck with his now consistent pre-match negativity pleading a "hard done to" stance.

He is a manager on realtively high wages compared to his peers. High wages with zero expectation ? not a bad number in the present climate ? do you agree Tony? If the situation is so appallingly bad that he has to persistently go on about it, then he should do the honourable thing and leave ? not take the money and gripe. His negativity and failure to inspire is having a telling effect on the players ? a factor that I note is not included in your "list".

To me this is singualrly the most compelling reason as to why he should depart. A manager (in any field) who does not inspire and motivate or ? worse still ? arrogantly does not see the need to inspire or motivate ? is not an effective manager in my book.

Yes ,Tony M is provocative, is vehemently negative in his contributions; however, the basis of his and your views do not strike me as being as polarised as you would make out.

Keen to hear your views back Tony.

All the best ? after all, as Michael K says, we are fellow Evertonians.

Tony J Williams, I don't dissapear as you say when we have a good spell, I just never ever fall into the trap of thinking the corner has been turned. Why should I come on here and say "Oh we are amazing, did you see that" etc etc? It always ends up back were it started.

Take Beckford last season. Comes on as sub and rescues some very important games from the bench. Reward: Dropped next game??? It's all bollocks and the sooner you realise what we are becoming, the better.

I never go missing; I just sit back and listen to all you lot make fools of yourselves with your delusional predictions. We will never amount to nothing with a Crab like Moyes in charge. Good spells have now become the blips at this club... Wake Up!

Tony J Williams,

Keen to hear what you think. Do you disagree with what I am saying.

Particularly, what's your view on Moyes's off-the-pitch demeanour and outward negativity? Do you think it is impacting on the team? Do you see his failure to inspire as important?

Tony, you do go missing and the only fool is the "The End Is Nigh" one.

You have been saying that Moyes will get us relegated after every bad start we have.... and guess what?, you have been wrong every time.

Who knows? with the lack of investment, you may get it right soon enough.

You don't have to come on and say how great we are, you could critically analyse the game, talk about the things we did bad...aswell as what we did right. No, you just wait for the slump and then tell us how much you hate football and that you're done with Everton.....until your next post where you call Moyes a coward.

As I said in my first post, you were starting off with a good point but then defered to your default positon of "It's all Moyes's fault"

James, Yes it is Moyes's job to motivate players, but it's also the job of the team Captain or the Captain on the pitch to pick them up too.

As always, I think the players get away with too much on here. Yes tactics are stale, boring and predictable, they have been for 8 years but some of those years we have made it into Europe and actually managed to play decent footy at times.

Arguably our two most skillfully players have been sold and never replaced, so I hold distain for the board in not being able to run a Premiership side properly, a board that hasn't invested in how many years.

I am bored with football in general, Citteh will win the league this year or next and will continue to do so until the Arabs do one.

We will never compete again and as much as the tactics are shite (worked before though) and the players' fragile egos are bruised and Moyes's has seemingly given up, I don't see it all as Moyes's fault. Others do, I don't and I will debate that for a long time.

Marshy won't, people who don't see views as he does are labelled "fools", "apologists" etc.

His all conquering wisdom, that he was right and Moyes is shit is tedious and also wrong. Moyes isn't shit, he just isn't as good as we all hoped he would become when we had a little purple patch of Europe after so long in the wilderness.

Tony,

Thanks for responding. I do not regard you as an apologist - you are an Evertonian first and foremost. Respect (totally) your view.

Don't see a dramatic difference in our views - but we do differ on the timing of the end game. I see it as now.

When you say, boring, stale and predictable and the last 8 years in the one sentence, I see that as game over.

Hear what you say on disillusionment around football - share that view.

We'll call it a draw there.

All the best

Will apologists never learn?

After a flounce always finish with:

"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"

just comes over as snivelling otherwise

Will player apologists never learn.

After a tirade of swear words and abuse to other Evertonians, always end the sentence (in capitals) END OF!

yeah!

FFS, I have never read so much bollocks from people who cannot see the wood for the trees. I mean, FFS, I went to the Man Utd game with me Dad, who is 82 next week. His comment to me was "This team is shite, I can move quicker than most of them on the Everton Team, never have I seen such a poor collective bunch of footballers."

Everton are shite under Moyes and Kenwright, When Moyes has been given money it's been a fucking disaster, such as Beattie, Krøldrup...

As far as Everton FC is concerned, the end in nigh. I fear that there are not three worse teams than Everton; Bolton know where the net is as do Wolves.

- More or less agree with everything in OP.

Tony Marsh has been entirely consistent in his posts through the time i have been reading TW. His writing style is passionate and sometimes cruelly funny. I agree with almost everything in his post.

Liam, I think you are slightly off your tree. Playing those games consecutively probably would affect your results, as you don't get the easier games to play yourself back into any kind of form.

It's all bollocks anyway, as in those 5 games we played against top 6 teams, we should have gotten some points. It is unacceptable that we didn't.

In the 09-10 season we played Man United and Chelsea back to back and won both games.

Last season our results against the top 6 (teams above us) were fuckin good, whereas our results against the bottom 13 were woeful.

The argument that the anti-Moyes brigade are blaming him for things that aren't his fault are starting to get very old too - six losses in seven games and he is continuously doing the same things to make our style ineffective.

The fact is, we played five of the top six in succession (Fulham game in the middle I know) and we didn't even have a go at any of them. Epic fail, Moyes!

Michael K..nice post.

However this is again selective observation in its usual form from Mr M. The usual wafer thin examples to prove a point...its like football changes every week with a new team showing us just how it should be done, then they fall away as others have. Another team rises for a few weeks, Marsh gets excited at the latest showing on MOTD, and then they die away too. Moyes is no better than Smith now. Really.

We have real, problems, and Moyes recently has shown difficulty in rising above it. However this misses the mark, just like all the other bitter rants.

Dave and Michael #60, in the interests of fairness I would like to republish my response to Dave's accusations. Firstly Dave, I hope to be coming back to the UK once a year for work from now on and so would genuinely love to meet up with you for a pint, I'll hold you to that.

Firstly Dave, I think you may have mistaken me for someone else, I never said that I wouldn't pay to watch Moyes' Everton, completely untrue. However given the number of people who have made this statement I can understand how you may have attributed it to me, no offence taken. As for insulting people, the phrase "those in glass houses" comes to mind. I don't get upset when called a "Moyes Hater" or find it insulting, even though I actually like him, so I don't believe you should be too offended by being called an "Apologist".

When Everton came over to Australia me and my son flew to Sydney to watch them train and the match and met up with lots of other blues. Same again in Brisbane, I also pay for Fox Sports here solely so I can watch the Mighty Blues, so I actually do continue to pay to watch us.

I've met Moyes and talked to him, he's a fabulous guy, signed my shirt and even said he'd allow some of the training staff to come for a beer in Brisbane with us, a lovely man who I have great respect for as both a person and what he did in the first few years at Goodison, but I don't let that cloud my interpretation of what I have seen and continue to see on the pitch.

IMHO he is a useless tactician, too slow to make substitutions, can't read what is happening in games, is too defensive minded, too negative, has favourites who he continues to play either out of position, when out of form or when injured, complains too much and has turned us into a dire team to watch, that's all. If tomorrow he changed all that then I'd be over the moon and support him 100%, just as I do the mighty blues.

For the record this is the story behind me and my son's trip to Wembley. I first took my boy to Goodison from Norwich with my Dad and brothers, when he was 3 years old and he loved every minute of it. Despite the 5 hour journey each way he insisted on me taking him to as many games as possible.

From then on we travelled the country watching the Mighty Blues, we even won a lot of games early doors, mainly 1-0 wins and with a fair lump of luck, we were very happy. It was costing us over 200 GBP to go to every home game from Norfolk, so I set up the NorfolkBlues website and arranged to pick up others blues from the East and shared the petrol costs.

When we decided to emigrate to Australia we had our last golden chance of getting to Wembley and travelled down to Stamford Bridge with 10,000 other blues to roar us on. Chelsea went down to 10 men and were there for the taking, Moyes bottled it, failed to take the initiative and Chelsea got a last minute winner in the first leg, I was fuming!!!!!!!

Then came the second leg, another midweek match, this time I took half a day of work, pulled both my kids out of school and we all went over to Goodison. Moyes bottled it again, despite the most amazing support from the Evertonians there that night, Moyes didn't go for it. Chelsea scored and broke my boys heart, in 6 months time we would be in Australia for life.

I promised him there and then that if the Mighty Blues EVER got to a Cup Final then I would take him, he'd seen a lot of crap in the 7 years he'd been traveling the country with me and deserved to see us at Wembley IF we ever got there. With my son and wife in tears we said Goodbye to Goodison.........

Wouldn't you believe it, the first Cup Final after we got to Australia and the Mighty Blues had done it. True to my word we bought 2 tickets from an agency for 1000 GBP each (in the middle tier, you know the Club Wembley seats that are held by bond holders and not given to the clubs supporters by the FA).

Four days were spent traveling to and from England and we had a fantastic time with our fellow blues, an amazing atmosphere and memories my son will never forget, despite a certain Mr Moyes bottling it once again. I don't begrudge the money I spent, I loved every minute of it, my son saw the Mighty Blues at Wembley and had an experience he will never forget. If you are interested you can watch my Video of Saha's goal on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvTby5U1Ypg&sns=em

Did my son deserve to go the Cup Final after 7 years of traveling around the country watching the Mighty Blues? I think he did. Did other blues more deserving than us miss out? Undoubtably, but I was keeping a promise to my little blue eyed Evertonian, and he deserved to go too.

Fairness!

I've read through a lot of recent posts by Robbie Sheilds, trying to find this rabid character Dave Wilson describes who (he claims) we have allowed to attack fellow Evertonians on these pages. He simply does not exist.

I can only conclude Wilson has invented this bizarre persona as poor justification for his despicably moronic claim that he can decide which Evertonians are worthy of a Wembley seat when Everton get to a cup final.

Robbie, he didn't even extend you the courtesy of bothering to read your explanation last time, so don't hold your breath.

For everybody using the games against Man City, Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Newcastle as an excuse for out recent run, we got 0 points this season from 5 fixtures we gained 11 points from last season. That's a pretty huge backward step. We are screwed on and off the pitch, there is no denying it and even the chance of the post Christmas surge is not looking that good this year.

Robbie, what a great story. I too know what it's like to be with "our son or sons" at the citadel of football.

With the money you must have spent you can truly think of yourself as an Evertonian amongst Evertonians.

So Walter Smith should be credited for our 4th place finish in 2004? What was his best ever finish with us? How much did he spend? What the f?

Tony J Williams @ 66, you didn't read my post lad. The money would come through sacrificing a midfielder and signing the players needed. If you got no money you have to wheel and deal to bring in the players needed to take you forward. Again, Moyes, like his team selections sits on the same formular and hopes for the best. The man has no idea of how to set up a team to win football matches. He is so terrified of defeat he can't bring himself to select an attacking formation. Playing attacking football involves risk and Davey is a percentages man. He has taken us as for as he can. Thanks for the service, thanks for the general improvement from being relegation fodder for years. Thank you for returning some self respect over the years, BUT....when it came to the crunch, when the vision was coming into focus, when we were tantilisingly close, you never had the nerve to finish the job. The show is over.

Matt #88
Moyes doesn't have the option of "wheeling & dealing". Any money generated from player sales goes to the bank...not on new players. What part of "we have no money"...do you not understand?

Brendan, All the money goes to the banks, yeah. So, you're on the board and know this for sure. Yeah right.

If we'd have sold Jags then we may have held Arteta. Since there's not a lot of difference in skill between,

Sorry Michael, I'm just bored with this rubbish!

Jon #90

I'm not on the Board but you don't need to be to work out that we are selling players, sending players out on loan and not re-investing the income/money saved in new players.

I don't know if we could have sold Jags instead of Arteta... you obviously do... YOU on the Board?

Sorry Michael...so am I!

Brendan, this was 18 months ago...the values of Fella, Arteta and Rodwell were all 20m. You could have given the bank 5millon...and still pulled in Donavon and a striker. However you maybe right mate...we don't ever have a real clue at what is going on with the regime.

Michael, your religion analogy post was fantastic. As I read it, I thought "This could be it's own article", but commend you for leaving it as a post because it would have been a bit "how ya goin" as an article.

Dave, I'm not speaking for all of us on this side of the schism, but "apologist" is just a lot easier than typing "those that support Moyes" all the time. There really is no offense intended, it just makes things easier. Would a rose...

Brendan McLaughlin, what part of "wheeling & dealing" don't you understand? If we have no money, and any player sales go to the bank, then Moyes needs to "wheel and deal" with the board as much as he has to do it with other clubs. "Bill, if I sell two players and bring in 25mil, can I use 12 of it?"

The thing is about all this back and forward is this:
Anyone managing a professional club for 10 years should have trophies, if not league titles with that club. It is basic common sense.

Matt #92
I'm not sure we would have got that sort of money for any of those three even 18 (or more realistically 12) months before. Do you really think Arteta's value has fallen by 50% (£10m) in 12/18 months?

Nail on the head, however, none of us actually have a clue as to whats really going on behind the closed curtains at Everton. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Brendan, Arsenal, offered us dosh for jags.

For their money we could have bought Donovan. We would have lost Jags. Oh my God I could have slit my wrists. The difference between a hoof geezer and a footballer.

But there you go, mistakes made, but I still love my club.

Romam # 93

The "wheeling & dealing" scenario I was responding to was selling one of our players and bringing in two. I see you've introduced the concept of selling two players although I still don't accept that we could have brought in Donovan & a quality forward for what..£13 million?

As for you basic "common sense" that any manager should have trophies, nay league titles after 10 years... are you saying that if Mick McCarthy stays at Wolves for ten years and merely manages to keep them in the Premier League for all of that time... he should be regarded as a failure?

Jon #95
Arsenal offered us dosh for Jags...paper talk.
Arsenal offered us dosh for Arteta ..fact.

Unless of course you, unlike I, know different cos you're on the Board!

Erm... our squad is worth a lot more than Wolves so to compare Moyes to McCarthy is pointless (our wage bill is miles bigger than Wolves for starters)

Mick McCarthy is an average manager at best, regardless on how Wolves do; I doubt he'll last 10 years there in truth...

Erm... Marcus who is comparing Moyes & McCarthy? I was responding to the "Anyone managing a professional club for 10 years". Bold statement of opinion with which I disagree. No comparison asked for and no comparison offered.

By the way do you agree that "Anyone managing a professional club for 10 years should have trophies, if not league titles"?

Brendan, Arsene Wenger himself said that he had put in two bids for Jagielka and both were turned down. Jags wanted to stay, Arteta wanted to go.

OK Andy #100
Hands up. I was just pushing this "Are you on the Board" thing as far as I could. I hoped all sensible posters would be in bed by now which is where I'm going.
Catch you later.

On my passport where it says Religion, I put "Evertonian" then I had a smart ass customs officer pick it up and query it. I told him I worship as St Domingo's and it's sacred and consecrated ground. There are no false idols there, as we pray to Saint Dixie and the Golden Vision, Alex Young. In the name of Kendall, Harvey and Ball... Amen

Brendan I agree with you, not winning a cup competition isn't a reason to criticize Moyes, cup competitions by and large need a degree of luck to win so as much as I'd love Everton to win a Cup I judge Moyes on his league finishes.

By and large Moyes has done well at Everton, I'm not churlish enough to say differently. I just feel hes not the same manager as he was earlier in his reign and ever since we came 4th with that negative 4-5-1 system hes decreed to himself that thats the only way to play now and has become unbearably negative not only with his team selections but with his whole demeanour.

Ohh and he has had money to spend so that argument doesn't wash with me, he wasted around £15 million on Bilyaletdinov and Heitinga! He should've bought lesson known players which is how he has had his success in the transfer market and he should of addressed the imbalance in the squad back then with that Lescott money. He didn't and he failed and now this is where we are at (players out of position everywhere which just leads to disjointed football).

The last time Moyes had money to spend we finished 2 points off a European place and only 4 teams lost less games than us.

Since then we have spent a bean and look where we are. The money doesn't matter argument doesn't wash with me either, in that it doesn't matter how much you spend. - Of course it does, is it any surprise that the team that has spent the most on new players is now top of the league?

Yes in hindsight Bily and Heitinga were possibly bad buys, but Heitinga was playing great, got to the World Cup Final with Holland and was many posters favourite. Bily came in and got more assists in his first month than Pienaar managed all season, then he stopped taking corners and it all went tits up for him.

It's not hindsight with me, though.

I never understood the need to buy Heitinga when we had more than enough defensive players. With that money he could of solved the winger and striker positions but instead bought a utility defender and a player on a recommendation from Hiddink! Russian players arn't the best at adapting to new leagues so I was against signing Bilyaletdinov when I saw we had bought him. Sadly my misgivings of that signing have proven correct.

Heitinga was brought in to replace Hibbert/Neville at right back. That's where he started off and couldn't hack it.

The first couple of months with Bily went well, he was scoring and getting lots of assists. He got injured taking a corner and for some reason it hasn't worked out anymore.

Free his of a defensive duty on the wing and he will be a far better prospect. he can dribble, pick out a pass and by feck he can shoot. I wish that Moyes would allow him to.

I saw Heitinga at right-back for Atletico, he was playing out of position and it showed. Hes ALWAYS been a central defender, Moyes bought him for his versatility!

I've never seen what you've seen in Bily, apart from his ability to hit a shot from distance hes got nothing to offer us

I love how this 4th place is seen as the golden era.

I personally didn't enjoy that season much at all! We still played shite football and grinded out 1-0's.

We are the only team to ever finish forth with a NEGATIVE goal difference FFS! And the lowest points total to do so.

After Gravesen left, we barely made it and were embarrassingly ill-equipped to enter Europe anyway.

Spot on, James.

That season we played ugly football, like England did the other day against Spain; sure it's winning... but it leaves you feeling somewhat underwhelmed all the same.

Moyes's best season I'd say was the 08-09 season: we played good stuff at times and reached a cup final.

Michael Kenrick, mate! Bloody good site, this Toffeeweb. Gives everybody a chance to blow off steam and sometimes hit the nail right on the bleedin' head.

Don't ya just luv it!
COYB