Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
No Excuses, Davey
By Chris Butler :: 09/11/2011
77 Comments (»Last)
Throughout large parts of the last two seasons, I?ve read numerous posts complaining about Bill Kenwright and our lack of finances. I think fans have this idea that BK is at fault for all the things at Everton.
Personally I wouldn?t know how to run a football club ? neither would most people who post on here. In my opinion, BK is just well over his head; I do believe he?s an Everton fan... but so is Wayne Rooney ? would he know to run a football club?
I believe he should leave and try and find somebody who will be able to find a decent buyer. I don?t believe all this nonsense that nobody wants to buy us. Everton have a support that is bigger than Manchester City?s, bigger than Spurs' support and bigger than Villa?s ? they?ve all managed to secure investment... why haven?t we?
Going on to my main point, I pointed out problems 2 years ago that now supporters are only just realising. Basic things like it was clear Arteta was never going to be the same player he was on his return from injury; what does David Moyes do? ? sign him on a long contract earning £70k a week.
In the summer of 2009, DM tried to sign a right back despite the fact we already had three at the club. You can argue they're not wonderful players, but I believe it shows his mentality. DM has signed numerous defensive-minded midfielders during his time at Everton, yet ? with the exception of Pienaar, Arteta and Donovan ? most have been flops. His decision to sell Beckford and the Yak this year was unforgivable, now we?re left with a player who seems to believe he?s a midfielder, when he does get into decent positions, there?s nobody skilful enough to pass to him.
The decision to keep three defensive midfielders, all of whom could bring in reasonable fees, to me is ridiculous. When Rodwell and Fellaini play together, one of them ends up having an awful game. Our midfield is made up of players who can only play the ball sideways and backwards, never forwards.
The bizarre decision to bring in another left winger to go along with three others also in my eyes is inexcusable. His decisions to keep Anichebe yet sell Vaughan also to me makes no logical sense; the decision to loan Vaughan out just when he was coming into form in the 2009-10 season is another bizarre decision.
I could understand his decisions to axe the likes of Barkley and Vaughan if he was consistent. He kept Arteta in the team despite the fact he rarely if ever performed very good on his return from injury. The decision to loan the Yak out last season was bizarre. That he spent £11 million on a player who is unproven in the Premier League also defeats the argument of him getting no money.
I can?t fault him for our Uefa Cup exit in the 2007-08 season or our defeat in the Carling Cup semi-final. I can blame him for our defeat in the FA Cup Final. We got two excellent draws against Chelsea that season; the away game was after we?d played extra time and penalties a few days before. We got two draws against Chelsea by playing the ball on the floor and not continuously giving the ball away like we did in the final.
DM has a relatively poor record against the top 4; he?s never won away against any of the top 4 during his time at Everton. His record against some of the worst Liverpool sides most Everton fans can remember is embarrassing.
He?s only beat Liverpool 4 times despite the fact there wasn't such a big gulf in class until recently. Swansea went to Anfield on Saturday and should have left there with 3 points despite the huge financial gap between the 2 clubs. Not once at Anfield under his tenure have we even got close to winning away against Liverpool. I agree with what a Liverpool supporter said, that the reason why we struggle to win against them is that DM just sends our players out like headless chickens.
It?s alright playing defensive football, like City played at Arsenal last season and coming away with a point, but there?s no point when you can?t defend. We have a pretty awful record at keeping clean sheets so I don?t know why we just don?t attack.
The ridiculous decision to not sell Jags is haunting us this season, he?s been awful. £14 million would have been a good fee for a player who is past his best.
Moyes signed one of the stars on the 2010 World Cup yet Jan Mucha has never ever really had a chance. Cahill is in my opinion an Everton legend but it seems to me that 4-5-1 is a dated system; teams have worked out how to play against him and now he doesn't get much service anymore. He slows our play down, particularly at home where he seems to just get in the way.
The simple truth is DM has chosen to make stupid decisions like all the things mentioned above. He?s kept players who under-perform and signed them on long contracts, he?s sold nearly all our decent attacking players, and he continues to believe playing 4-6-0 and just blasting the ball to the opposition wins you games.
Like another poster said, I do not support the Blue Union as they seem to believe BK and DM are separate entities. Both rely on each other ? BK relies on DM to give him support through the media, and vice versa. DM seems happy to stay at Everton earning thousands of pounds a week while we stagnate.
Reader Comments (77)
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Bob Parrington
2 Posted 10/11/2011 at 11:39:01
2 Posted 10/11/2011 at 11:39:01
Y'know, I'm pissed off with these people who set them up as highly paid coaches and then start to make freekin' excuses as to why they can't succeed instead of getting on with the job properly as is why they are paid so much. So, look at wanker Capello now making excuses that England doesn't have the quality. freekin' hell. Just a bunch of too highly paid dipshits!
Trevor Mackie
4 Posted 10/11/2011 at 15:23:22
4 Posted 10/11/2011 at 15:23:22
Agree with it all Chris except the title.
it should read:
"Always excuses for Moyes"
Given last year was the "no excuses" season just read some of the apologist stuff on here they're still going strong.
My favourite is his escape from blame, apparently what's happening is fuck all to do with him even though he's been manager for 10 years.
It's like watching "life of Brian" followers.
it should read:
"Always excuses for Moyes"
Given last year was the "no excuses" season just read some of the apologist stuff on here they're still going strong.
My favourite is his escape from blame, apparently what's happening is fuck all to do with him even though he's been manager for 10 years.
It's like watching "life of Brian" followers.
Kunal Desai
5 Posted 10/11/2011 at 16:00:15
5 Posted 10/11/2011 at 16:00:15
I think signing Arteta on a 5 year contract was good business. If he had say 2 yrs left then Arsenal would perhaps have got him on the cheap.
Maybe that was the plan between Moyes and BK at the time. Sign him up and then flog him for big money.
Maybe that was the plan between Moyes and BK at the time. Sign him up and then flog him for big money.
Erik Dols
6 Posted 10/11/2011 at 16:20:10
6 Posted 10/11/2011 at 16:20:10
Jan Mucha? One of the stars of the World Cup? Are you for real? He got no clean sheets at all, even New Zealand managed to score against him.
I am by no means a Moyes-apologist but this is ridiculous.
I am by no means a Moyes-apologist but this is ridiculous.
Sam Hoare
7 Posted 10/11/2011 at 16:37:48
7 Posted 10/11/2011 at 16:37:48
Erik has beaten me to it but Jan Mucha?! Star of the world cup? Not had a chance? Did you watch the chelsea carling cup match??!!!
Undermines what was already a weak and repetitive argument.
Undermines what was already a weak and repetitive argument.
Adam Cunliffe
8 Posted 10/11/2011 at 16:45:20
8 Posted 10/11/2011 at 16:45:20
That same Jan Mucha who kept us in the Carling Cup with a string of excellent saves...Oh hang on a minute.
I'm by no means Moyes biggest fan, I think the football can be (at times) shite, and often his refusal to play a second striker is infuriating. However, you can't account for individual errors; i.e Mucha's howler and the Hietinga OG at the weekend.
Let's get through the Wolves game and we'll be a damn sight clearer on the direction were headed as a club, both on and off the field.
I'm by no means Moyes biggest fan, I think the football can be (at times) shite, and often his refusal to play a second striker is infuriating. However, you can't account for individual errors; i.e Mucha's howler and the Hietinga OG at the weekend.
Let's get through the Wolves game and we'll be a damn sight clearer on the direction were headed as a club, both on and off the field.
Wayne Smyth
9 Posted 10/11/2011 at 17:06:10
9 Posted 10/11/2011 at 17:06:10
Adam, I'm not sure why a result over wolves would indicate anything we don't already know, to be honest.
If we win, it doesn't discount the past seasons of uninspiring, stale, anti-football. It doesn't indicate Moyes has turned a corner, or learnt something new. It merely buys us some more breathing room.
If we lose, it does confirm where we are heading under Moyes, but I think that has been fairly obvious to many of us for a long time.
If we win, it doesn't discount the past seasons of uninspiring, stale, anti-football. It doesn't indicate Moyes has turned a corner, or learnt something new. It merely buys us some more breathing room.
If we lose, it does confirm where we are heading under Moyes, but I think that has been fairly obvious to many of us for a long time.
John Daley
10 Posted 10/11/2011 at 16:59:56
10 Posted 10/11/2011 at 16:59:56
The Jan Mucha line made me laugh but this just baffled me: "The bizarre decision to bring in another left winger to go along with three others also in my eyes is inexcusable".
I guess you're talking about Drenthe, but apart from him I can't figure out who the other three are. Bily? I think he's proved he's no winger. Gueye? He was actually a centre forward for his previous club and France u21. Moyes shoved him out wide straightaway because..well..that's just what Moyes does. Who's the third left winger? Osman? Surely not.
Shit. Wait on. You were meaning Mcfadden as the new 'winger', joining Drenthe, Bily and Gueye to make four? McFadden pissed and moaned about being played out wide when he was here the first time and constantly claimed to be a centre forward. Not that it matters because he was equally shit in either position.
Drenthe is the only actual left winger at the club. In fact he's the only winger full stop. He's only here on loan and then we go back to having no wingers in the squad at all. That's a more damning criticism of Moyes in my opinion. We've been crying out for specialist wide players for years and the only ones I can remember him bringing in, before Drenthe, is Andy Van der Meyde (a winger who spent more time supping shorts then wearing them) and Landon Donovan on loan for a few months.
I guess you're talking about Drenthe, but apart from him I can't figure out who the other three are. Bily? I think he's proved he's no winger. Gueye? He was actually a centre forward for his previous club and France u21. Moyes shoved him out wide straightaway because..well..that's just what Moyes does. Who's the third left winger? Osman? Surely not.
Shit. Wait on. You were meaning Mcfadden as the new 'winger', joining Drenthe, Bily and Gueye to make four? McFadden pissed and moaned about being played out wide when he was here the first time and constantly claimed to be a centre forward. Not that it matters because he was equally shit in either position.
Drenthe is the only actual left winger at the club. In fact he's the only winger full stop. He's only here on loan and then we go back to having no wingers in the squad at all. That's a more damning criticism of Moyes in my opinion. We've been crying out for specialist wide players for years and the only ones I can remember him bringing in, before Drenthe, is Andy Van der Meyde (a winger who spent more time supping shorts then wearing them) and Landon Donovan on loan for a few months.
Mick Gallagher
11 Posted 10/11/2011 at 17:29:12
11 Posted 10/11/2011 at 17:29:12
Agree with most of it but fuck me dont put Mucha into the arguement. Weve got three goalies any way so try hahnemann instead of Mucha. sell of then in January if anyone will buy them and use the couple of quid we get off them to start next years tonny.
Chris Butler
13 Posted 10/11/2011 at 17:50:48
13 Posted 10/11/2011 at 17:50:48
I was actually talking about McFadden, John. Mucha was highly regarded and rated as one of the 'keepers of the tournament; he made numerous excellent saves.
Derek Thomas
14 Posted 10/11/2011 at 22:04:50
14 Posted 10/11/2011 at 22:04:50
We have short term on the field problems and medium and long term off the field problems. The short verion for the off the field probs is Kenwright and Money...put these to one side for the time being.
So, If Davy were to fall under the proverbial bus we would still have the same squad.
It ain't what you do it's the way you do it. If we haven't got a lot, we have to make the best of what we have.
IMO MOYES DOESN'T...can't, won't doesn't get it, thinks he's right, whatever permutation or other reason
Again forget the med / long term off field.
2 Short term solutions.
a ) Moyes changes
b ) Moyes goes.
Nutshell.
So, If Davy were to fall under the proverbial bus we would still have the same squad.
It ain't what you do it's the way you do it. If we haven't got a lot, we have to make the best of what we have.
IMO MOYES DOESN'T...can't, won't doesn't get it, thinks he's right, whatever permutation or other reason
Again forget the med / long term off field.
2 Short term solutions.
a ) Moyes changes
b ) Moyes goes.
Nutshell.
Derek Thomas
15 Posted 10/11/2011 at 22:22:03
15 Posted 10/11/2011 at 22:22:03
Or;
c) Things stay the same, and we teeter along the relegation places, we have no momentum ( unlike the barcodes who have )
Momentum likes to keep moving ( Isaac Newton ? ) we had it in 04-05 even tho' we slowed we kept our 1st half momentum to stagger over the line to 4th. This is what I think the Barcodes will do, with Ba = Bent.
We on the other hand are Inert, bodies at rest tend to stay at rest ( again Mr Newton? )
There may well be no poor start turn around, I haven't seen any yet.
c) Things stay the same, and we teeter along the relegation places, we have no momentum ( unlike the barcodes who have )
Momentum likes to keep moving ( Isaac Newton ? ) we had it in 04-05 even tho' we slowed we kept our 1st half momentum to stagger over the line to 4th. This is what I think the Barcodes will do, with Ba = Bent.
We on the other hand are Inert, bodies at rest tend to stay at rest ( again Mr Newton? )
There may well be no poor start turn around, I haven't seen any yet.
Nick Entwistle
16 Posted 10/11/2011 at 22:31:54
16 Posted 10/11/2011 at 22:31:54
Most submissions these days can be picked apart piece by piece. Doesn?t matter, debate has gone. You're either on one side or the other. Pitchforks at the ready!
What really annoys me though is how those who want Moyes out create then denigrate reasons why people support the guy.
Tony Marsh gives a clear example above regarding relegation. Not the first time he?s spouted the ridiculous since his latest reappearance.
Seven from nine seasons we finish in the top eight. Wouldn?t the truth be closer to this? The lowest league placing was 17th in 2004. If there were fears of relegation they were allayed six games from season?s end.
Einstein said ?A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.?
So here?s something that isn?t a fanciful creation - Average net spend £4.4m per season, average league placing 7th.
You can?t argue with that. Actually, someone will. Acceptance of Mediocrity! More creativity.
Will hate to log on to these pages in whichever year Moyes leaves only to find Tony Marsh crowing louder than all the rest - citing his departure as a reason he was right all along.
No matter how good a batsman can be in an innings the bowler will get the last laugh. The opposition supporters jeering as he walks off the pitch.
Always fired or stepping down, managers face the same fete.
What really annoys me though is how those who want Moyes out create then denigrate reasons why people support the guy.
Tony Marsh gives a clear example above regarding relegation. Not the first time he?s spouted the ridiculous since his latest reappearance.
Seven from nine seasons we finish in the top eight. Wouldn?t the truth be closer to this? The lowest league placing was 17th in 2004. If there were fears of relegation they were allayed six games from season?s end.
Einstein said ?A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.?
So here?s something that isn?t a fanciful creation - Average net spend £4.4m per season, average league placing 7th.
You can?t argue with that. Actually, someone will. Acceptance of Mediocrity! More creativity.
Will hate to log on to these pages in whichever year Moyes leaves only to find Tony Marsh crowing louder than all the rest - citing his departure as a reason he was right all along.
No matter how good a batsman can be in an innings the bowler will get the last laugh. The opposition supporters jeering as he walks off the pitch.
Always fired or stepping down, managers face the same fete.
Brendan McLaughlin
17 Posted 10/11/2011 at 22:41:40
17 Posted 10/11/2011 at 22:41:40
Or Derek #11 & 12
d) after a bad start to the season we turn it around and climb the table to a Top 10 or even better finish....I know this is inconceivable because we've never done it before. Oh but hold on a minute...
d) after a bad start to the season we turn it around and climb the table to a Top 10 or even better finish....I know this is inconceivable because we've never done it before. Oh but hold on a minute...
David Mathieson
18 Posted 10/11/2011 at 23:27:13
18 Posted 10/11/2011 at 23:27:13
Quotes from Einstein and Newton who next? Carl Gauss...
Kevin Hudson
19 Posted 10/11/2011 at 22:52:39
19 Posted 10/11/2011 at 22:52:39
Careful Nick, otherwise the child-like fear-mongers will criticise you for wheeling out stats to support your argument.
They'll also claim they're meaningless, and eschew the fact that since 1990, Everton have only finished in the top 7 eight times;
Six of them at the hands of Moyes.
Next they'll suggest that idiots like Neil Warnock could do a better job. Or promote fanciful notions that Marco Van Basten ought to be snapped up.
Defeats to the richest clubs in the world will validate their argument, victories will be accompanied by Vicky Pollard-esque "Yeah..but no..but.."
Moyes will be villified as a coward, a cancer, a mercenary & in one case "an absolute c*nt of a man."
Undaunted, they'll resort to one-word argumentative tactics to lampoon those who dissent: "Apologist!" They'll shriek. And that's the debate won - hands-down! (End of.. etcetera..)
Followed by deliberate avoidance of the fact that Moyes statistically surpasses the win-ratio of the previous 5 managerial terms, and sits 4th on that criteria of all-time list of gaffers.
Of course we ought to be blazing a trail across Europe right now, domestically conquering all before us - on pure fresh air, with pie-in-the-sky, almost Kopite-like delusions of entitlement.
They'll also claim they're meaningless, and eschew the fact that since 1990, Everton have only finished in the top 7 eight times;
Six of them at the hands of Moyes.
Next they'll suggest that idiots like Neil Warnock could do a better job. Or promote fanciful notions that Marco Van Basten ought to be snapped up.
Defeats to the richest clubs in the world will validate their argument, victories will be accompanied by Vicky Pollard-esque "Yeah..but no..but.."
Moyes will be villified as a coward, a cancer, a mercenary & in one case "an absolute c*nt of a man."
Undaunted, they'll resort to one-word argumentative tactics to lampoon those who dissent: "Apologist!" They'll shriek. And that's the debate won - hands-down! (End of.. etcetera..)
Followed by deliberate avoidance of the fact that Moyes statistically surpasses the win-ratio of the previous 5 managerial terms, and sits 4th on that criteria of all-time list of gaffers.
Of course we ought to be blazing a trail across Europe right now, domestically conquering all before us - on pure fresh air, with pie-in-the-sky, almost Kopite-like delusions of entitlement.
Roman Sidey
20 Posted 10/11/2011 at 23:50:09
20 Posted 10/11/2011 at 23:50:09
If it's "look to what is...", well, we're shit, and on the field, it's up to Moyes to fix it, and he didn't have the foresight to see the problems coming. Net spend, blah fucking blah. The man has enough forwards to play 2 and have 2 on the bench. Does he? Does he fuck?!
Quotes from Moyes that would have him sacked in any other club or industry:
"As long as I'm here, Osman and Hibbert have a job."
- Err, even if you're here til they're forty?
"If things aren't working, you've just got to keep doing things the same and hope it works out." (After Stoke last season)
- Err, no, it's actually the opposite.
Oh, and this chestnut he's pulled out a few times:
"He's (- he being any player on the bench who could probably do better than the shite on the field) found it hard it get some form and get back in the squad."
- Err, no, you won't give him a chance to get any form because he is a good player and therefore, not one of your little favourites.
Moyes out.
Quotes from Moyes that would have him sacked in any other club or industry:
"As long as I'm here, Osman and Hibbert have a job."
- Err, even if you're here til they're forty?
"If things aren't working, you've just got to keep doing things the same and hope it works out." (After Stoke last season)
- Err, no, it's actually the opposite.
Oh, and this chestnut he's pulled out a few times:
"He's (- he being any player on the bench who could probably do better than the shite on the field) found it hard it get some form and get back in the squad."
- Err, no, you won't give him a chance to get any form because he is a good player and therefore, not one of your little favourites.
Moyes out.
Kevin Hudson
21 Posted 11/11/2011 at 00:16:41
21 Posted 11/11/2011 at 00:16:41
Moyes dislikes "good players." - Classic.
The Stoke quote refers to something specific; Be it training, tactical or philosophical.. It's called perseverance.
You want Moyes out because you dislike your own skewed interpretation of his language.
The Stoke quote refers to something specific; Be it training, tactical or philosophical.. It's called perseverance.
You want Moyes out because you dislike your own skewed interpretation of his language.
Andy Crooks
22 Posted 11/11/2011 at 00:37:18
22 Posted 11/11/2011 at 00:37:18
Kevin, you put up some decent and robust defences of David Moyes on this site."Child-like fear mongers" is unfair.The league table and our performances this season suggest to me that we are in a relegation battle, We are not too good to go down and it is not child -like to fear the possibility.
Derek Thomas
23 Posted 11/11/2011 at 02:23:24
23 Posted 11/11/2011 at 02:23:24
We played Sunderland in the late 70's last game of the season, nothing in it for us, I remember carring No.1 son over the turnstiles for his first taste of Goodison. I think we won 2-0 Sunderland went down.
Charlie Hurley, when asked, wasn't it a bit hard going down on his last game ever and the last game of the season said, Nobody gets relegated coz the lost the last game of the season, rather that they lost the first game and all the others during the season.
Such is the poor standa.rd in the bottom half that If we DO (and nothing is certain ) I feel it will be in a photo which could see us anywhere from 14 - 18...what price our lack of initiative Vs QPR.
Kevin, Nick, Brendan etc. Do you actually think that, based on what we have seen this season, looking at Mr E's what is. that Moyes;
a) Has it just about right..or that;
b) Maybe He should up the attacking emphasis just a tad... Treat teams with the minimum respect due ( or not ) but not just reach for the vaseline and play grab ankles for the likes of QPR, while whinging...It's not fair, they've got more money than us.
Moyes Always turns it around by...well it started at Halloween in 2008, then went to Bonfire night, then advent, now Christmas. But he hasn't yet, isn't this contrary to the 2nd part of Mr E's words of wisdom about... looking for what he thinks should be.
When shorn of all the rhetoric all that the 0.02% moyes out Marshites want(?) is that most of them having seen good football and know what they are talking about want Everton to play the best football they are capable off given the restrictive for us, PL world we live in.
We believe that all this keep it tight and pinch one is not a viable 38 match game plan.
Bill won't vanish over night, nor will santa bring a billionaire. The squad will remain the same. So with that in mind, we have had 5 ' hard ' games, lets see if you are all still so staunch after the next 5.
Moyes changes, not a lot just some.
Or Moyes Goes.
Nothing else will make Marsh Mellow..
boom boom, sorry couldn't resist i t
Charlie Hurley, when asked, wasn't it a bit hard going down on his last game ever and the last game of the season said, Nobody gets relegated coz the lost the last game of the season, rather that they lost the first game and all the others during the season.
Such is the poor standa.rd in the bottom half that If we DO (and nothing is certain ) I feel it will be in a photo which could see us anywhere from 14 - 18...what price our lack of initiative Vs QPR.
Kevin, Nick, Brendan etc. Do you actually think that, based on what we have seen this season, looking at Mr E's what is. that Moyes;
a) Has it just about right..or that;
b) Maybe He should up the attacking emphasis just a tad... Treat teams with the minimum respect due ( or not ) but not just reach for the vaseline and play grab ankles for the likes of QPR, while whinging...It's not fair, they've got more money than us.
Moyes Always turns it around by...well it started at Halloween in 2008, then went to Bonfire night, then advent, now Christmas. But he hasn't yet, isn't this contrary to the 2nd part of Mr E's words of wisdom about... looking for what he thinks should be.
When shorn of all the rhetoric all that the 0.02% moyes out Marshites want(?) is that most of them having seen good football and know what they are talking about want Everton to play the best football they are capable off given the restrictive for us, PL world we live in.
We believe that all this keep it tight and pinch one is not a viable 38 match game plan.
Bill won't vanish over night, nor will santa bring a billionaire. The squad will remain the same. So with that in mind, we have had 5 ' hard ' games, lets see if you are all still so staunch after the next 5.
Moyes changes, not a lot just some.
Or Moyes Goes.
Nothing else will make Marsh Mellow..
boom boom, sorry couldn't resist i t
Robbie Shields
24 Posted 11/11/2011 at 03:14:10
24 Posted 11/11/2011 at 03:14:10
There are some stats that back up the other side of the argument too.
0 wins away from home against the established Sky 4, Liverpool, United, Chelsea and Arsenal (That's around 40 games.........I'll say it again... 40 GAMES), how is that record (Statistic even) possible by one of the best Managers in the world?????.
The only time a team has reached 4th Position with a negative goal difference.
1 Cup final appearance in 10 years of trying.
Heaviest European defeats in our history and numerous other heavy defeats too many, and painful, to list.
I want Moyes out because of the shite football he produces, year on year, and will continue to produce year on year, we can be so much better than this, but not with moyes.
Moyes Out.
Moyes Out.
0 wins away from home against the established Sky 4, Liverpool, United, Chelsea and Arsenal (That's around 40 games.........I'll say it again... 40 GAMES), how is that record (Statistic even) possible by one of the best Managers in the world?????.
The only time a team has reached 4th Position with a negative goal difference.
1 Cup final appearance in 10 years of trying.
Heaviest European defeats in our history and numerous other heavy defeats too many, and painful, to list.
I want Moyes out because of the shite football he produces, year on year, and will continue to produce year on year, we can be so much better than this, but not with moyes.
Moyes Out.
Moyes Out.
Jimmy Sørheim
25 Posted 11/11/2011 at 04:37:12
25 Posted 11/11/2011 at 04:37:12
True post besides Mucha. The truth is we are not too good to go down. We don't have the same squad as last year and therfore you just can't claim for sure that Moyes will go on a winning streak after January, cause there is no basis for that conclusion, not this year and not with this squad. We are left with medium players at best, and if that doesnt mean relegation than.
Also using injured players when you have fit ones ready is counter productive, it is effecting the performances of the team. I suggest playing players who are 100 percent fit, and change formation until you find a winning formula, it is that simple. You have to adapt, Moyes just does not. MOYES MUST RESIGN
Also using injured players when you have fit ones ready is counter productive, it is effecting the performances of the team. I suggest playing players who are 100 percent fit, and change formation until you find a winning formula, it is that simple. You have to adapt, Moyes just does not. MOYES MUST RESIGN
Peter Barry
26 Posted 11/11/2011 at 07:52:55
26 Posted 11/11/2011 at 07:52:55
The next game against Wolves is a game for which Moyes and his sycophantic supporters have no excuse for losing or even drawing.
Mike Green
27 Posted 11/11/2011 at 08:31:13
27 Posted 11/11/2011 at 08:31:13
Well said Nick Entwhistle.
I'd love to put The Anti-Moyes Brigade in a room with Moyes, they'd do their conkers, pens at the ready "That's right Davey - "To Tony...""
All the last 7 games have taught us is we're not as good as the top 6 - but we knew that.... didn't we?
I'd love to put The Anti-Moyes Brigade in a room with Moyes, they'd do their conkers, pens at the ready "That's right Davey - "To Tony...""
All the last 7 games have taught us is we're not as good as the top 6 - but we knew that.... didn't we?
Gary Mortimer
28 Posted 11/11/2011 at 08:45:24
28 Posted 11/11/2011 at 08:45:24
Mike (#25). The last 6 league games have taught us that last year we we took 12 points from the corresponding games and were unbeaten in them. This year we have taken 3 points and have lost 5 of the 6 games.
They have shown us how far we have fallen behind and highlights what bad decisions were taken by Moyes in the summer regarding the sale of Beckford, Yakubu and Vaughan and replacing them with Straqualursi and McFadden. I don't blame BK for the sale - Moyes is in charge of the team. We all know that Moyes fell out with the Yak and didn't trust Beckford.
Once upon a time I would have faith in Moyes to turn it around, but I actually think we don't have the quality on the pitch to avoid a long hard fight against the drop. We have no creativity and pace in the team, and Moyes' tactics of trying to nick a result is just not working.
They have shown us how far we have fallen behind and highlights what bad decisions were taken by Moyes in the summer regarding the sale of Beckford, Yakubu and Vaughan and replacing them with Straqualursi and McFadden. I don't blame BK for the sale - Moyes is in charge of the team. We all know that Moyes fell out with the Yak and didn't trust Beckford.
Once upon a time I would have faith in Moyes to turn it around, but I actually think we don't have the quality on the pitch to avoid a long hard fight against the drop. We have no creativity and pace in the team, and Moyes' tactics of trying to nick a result is just not working.
Mike Gwyer
29 Posted 11/11/2011 at 08:26:49
29 Posted 11/11/2011 at 08:26:49
Peter #24.
Why do you personalise your comments against Everton fans, just because they do not agree with your view - "sycophantic supporters".... get real.
No win's against Wolves and then Bolton could well be the key to Moyes going. But the new manager will still have to work with the same shite players, still have to try and get something out of Saha, and yep he will immediately play 4-4-2 because that's what Goodison has been screaming out for - Velios and Saha are both mean fuckers in front of goal. But finally, the new manager will stick king Bily in his favourite position, where-ever the fuck that is ..... and correct, king Bily will still be shite. Now what you just read were my views and we live in a society where we do not have to take abuse for doing so.
I do agree that our style of play is currently poor and that the players confidence is low. But I also notice that all our creative players have been sold leaving us with the likes of Coleman, Osman and Drenthe to make the play.
Everton FC is in trouble big time, we all agree on this, but I do not personalise my comments about the poster when having to read their views of what they see happening at Goodison.
Why do you personalise your comments against Everton fans, just because they do not agree with your view - "sycophantic supporters".... get real.
No win's against Wolves and then Bolton could well be the key to Moyes going. But the new manager will still have to work with the same shite players, still have to try and get something out of Saha, and yep he will immediately play 4-4-2 because that's what Goodison has been screaming out for - Velios and Saha are both mean fuckers in front of goal. But finally, the new manager will stick king Bily in his favourite position, where-ever the fuck that is ..... and correct, king Bily will still be shite. Now what you just read were my views and we live in a society where we do not have to take abuse for doing so.
I do agree that our style of play is currently poor and that the players confidence is low. But I also notice that all our creative players have been sold leaving us with the likes of Coleman, Osman and Drenthe to make the play.
Everton FC is in trouble big time, we all agree on this, but I do not personalise my comments about the poster when having to read their views of what they see happening at Goodison.
Milos Milenkovic
30 Posted 11/11/2011 at 09:15:01
30 Posted 11/11/2011 at 09:15:01
Moyes has the best position in the business. He receives astronomical salary every week, yet he is not responsible for any failure, because other teams spent more money. Suddenly from August 2011 money is everything and we simply can't confront anyone because of that. Fact that Everton have very good squad is overlooked and it looks to me like all the talking is about finance. It is evident that there are no self-confidence in the team and they are prepared to lose every game.
I see people are talking about Sharp and Lineker, but they are not realizing that they were playing with strike partner and not with 2 defensive midfielders. I am sure that our strikers would be better if we play in normal formation with aim and desire to win the game, not to nick it from the corner. Our players are not playing to win they are playing no to lose. They are not enjoying playing, they are doing their jobs. Any creativity is subordinate to defensive duties.
Unfortunately, as many of you already stated, with Kenwright in charge, Moyes can do anything without any pressure.
I see people are talking about Sharp and Lineker, but they are not realizing that they were playing with strike partner and not with 2 defensive midfielders. I am sure that our strikers would be better if we play in normal formation with aim and desire to win the game, not to nick it from the corner. Our players are not playing to win they are playing no to lose. They are not enjoying playing, they are doing their jobs. Any creativity is subordinate to defensive duties.
Unfortunately, as many of you already stated, with Kenwright in charge, Moyes can do anything without any pressure.
David Hallwood
31 Posted 11/11/2011 at 10:38:00
31 Posted 11/11/2011 at 10:38:00
Well said Mike Gwyer#27. Anyone that comes to the 'defence' of Moyes is berated as an apologist. Like most Evertonians, Moyes frustrates me with hoof ball and pressing the second ball etc. But some of the shite spouted by the anti-Moyes brigade sounds like a teenage bird mouthing off in an argument.
For instance, Chris Butler complains that Moyes tried to buy a full back even though we had 3 on the books, presumably as proof of his negative instincts, but didn't mention that it was Kyle Walker who is a briliant atacking full back an England international and would?ve been an improvement on what we had (and still have now)and for £4 million if my memory serves me. On another thread someone described Saha and Jakielka as ?journeymen?, now just about everyone in the football world (except of course the world class talent spotters on TW) rate an injury-free Saha as good as anyone, of course at 33 his best days are behind him, but journeyman? And Jags is an England international mmmm.
Gary Mortimer#26, Blames Moyes not Kenwright for selling Beckford etc, but surely Gary the fact that he didn?t go into the market to buy a replacement, unless you?re a 10-year-old boy, you must realise that they were sold to pay off the debts, and really Moyes should?ve walked because of it.
And finally the weird argument that we are where we are has nothing to do with the fact that we haven?t bought a player for 2½ years, so to turn the argument on its head; Man City was in the 3rd tier of English football not so long ago, they are now top of the prem and could end up champions. This has nothing to do with a posse of sheiks shovelling money at the club, but it is down to Mancini?s brilliance.
For instance, Chris Butler complains that Moyes tried to buy a full back even though we had 3 on the books, presumably as proof of his negative instincts, but didn't mention that it was Kyle Walker who is a briliant atacking full back an England international and would?ve been an improvement on what we had (and still have now)and for £4 million if my memory serves me. On another thread someone described Saha and Jakielka as ?journeymen?, now just about everyone in the football world (except of course the world class talent spotters on TW) rate an injury-free Saha as good as anyone, of course at 33 his best days are behind him, but journeyman? And Jags is an England international mmmm.
Gary Mortimer#26, Blames Moyes not Kenwright for selling Beckford etc, but surely Gary the fact that he didn?t go into the market to buy a replacement, unless you?re a 10-year-old boy, you must realise that they were sold to pay off the debts, and really Moyes should?ve walked because of it.
And finally the weird argument that we are where we are has nothing to do with the fact that we haven?t bought a player for 2½ years, so to turn the argument on its head; Man City was in the 3rd tier of English football not so long ago, they are now top of the prem and could end up champions. This has nothing to do with a posse of sheiks shovelling money at the club, but it is down to Mancini?s brilliance.
Milos Milenkovic
32 Posted 11/11/2011 at 10:48:36
32 Posted 11/11/2011 at 10:48:36
David, of course money is very important, but there is no excuse for playing with Neville in midfield while there is Rodwell and while there is only Saha up front. Team that does this deserves to lose every game. It is negative for spectators and it is negative for players. I think they knew that line up against Newcastle is badly wrong and it was so obvious before kick off. It is very depressing that our manager finds that out after the game or after we conceded two goals.
Tony J Williams
33 Posted 11/11/2011 at 11:06:02
33 Posted 11/11/2011 at 11:06:02
So every International team deserves to lose then Milos?
Last World Cup, England were one of the few teams to play a 4-4-2 and let's be honest they were gash.
A 4-5-1 is the preferred method now, with it turning into a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 with the correct players.
Unfortuantely we do no have the correct players and our midfield is cack, if we played a 4-4-2 the opposition would walk through us.....as it's doing now...but probably even easier.
If they are strolling through our 5 in midfield, why would reducing that number and adding one more up front help us?
The whole problem is not the formation, it's the lesser players we have in our team and the fact that our vice captain can't pass a ball without putting his laces through it
Last World Cup, England were one of the few teams to play a 4-4-2 and let's be honest they were gash.
A 4-5-1 is the preferred method now, with it turning into a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 with the correct players.
Unfortuantely we do no have the correct players and our midfield is cack, if we played a 4-4-2 the opposition would walk through us.....as it's doing now...but probably even easier.
If they are strolling through our 5 in midfield, why would reducing that number and adding one more up front help us?
The whole problem is not the formation, it's the lesser players we have in our team and the fact that our vice captain can't pass a ball without putting his laces through it
Gary Mortimer
34 Posted 11/11/2011 at 10:55:33
34 Posted 11/11/2011 at 10:55:33
David Hallwood. (#29)
If Moyes was ordered to sell players to pay off debts, how do you explain the fact that he turned down a bid from Leicester for Anichebe earlier in the summer?
Moyes decided that we could afford to let Beckford go and gambled that Saha, Cahill and Vic would get the goals. This hasn't worked.
His body language and demeanor at recent games hasn't filled me with confidence that he knows how to turn our form around.
If Moyes was ordered to sell players to pay off debts, how do you explain the fact that he turned down a bid from Leicester for Anichebe earlier in the summer?
Moyes decided that we could afford to let Beckford go and gambled that Saha, Cahill and Vic would get the goals. This hasn't worked.
His body language and demeanor at recent games hasn't filled me with confidence that he knows how to turn our form around.
Kevin Hudson
35 Posted 11/11/2011 at 10:21:16
35 Posted 11/11/2011 at 10:21:16
I take on board what you're saying, Andy, but I do think it IS fear-mongering when we are less than 1/3 into the season, and the end is (apparently) nigh..
There was also plenty of child-like rhetoric to be found as early as 6 games played, here on ToffeeWeb.
Now to address Robbie's compelling stats:
Liverpool aside, is it more important to you to defeat the Sky cartel & does the rest of the season not count?
"4th place with a negative goal difference."
Disnae matter..It is STILL 4th place!
"One cup final in 10 years trying."
That would be one of the 16 cup finals since the 19th century, then. More entitlement.
On to the European question, where you take a minority slice of evidence to embroider the whole catalogue.
You reference heavy defeats to Benfica & Bucharest, then ignore the thrashings inflicted by ourselves on others, under Moyes
You also make no mention of the fact that he has won DOUBLE the amount of European games than he has lost.
You cannot employ just a fraction of the availiable evidence, to construct an entire case, whilst ignoring the complete picture.
There was also plenty of child-like rhetoric to be found as early as 6 games played, here on ToffeeWeb.
Now to address Robbie's compelling stats:
Liverpool aside, is it more important to you to defeat the Sky cartel & does the rest of the season not count?
"4th place with a negative goal difference."
Disnae matter..It is STILL 4th place!
"One cup final in 10 years trying."
That would be one of the 16 cup finals since the 19th century, then. More entitlement.
On to the European question, where you take a minority slice of evidence to embroider the whole catalogue.
You reference heavy defeats to Benfica & Bucharest, then ignore the thrashings inflicted by ourselves on others, under Moyes
You also make no mention of the fact that he has won DOUBLE the amount of European games than he has lost.
You cannot employ just a fraction of the availiable evidence, to construct an entire case, whilst ignoring the complete picture.
Trevor Mackie
36 Posted 11/11/2011 at 11:18:41
36 Posted 11/11/2011 at 11:18:41
Mike Green
If I was put in a room with Moyes I wouldn't do my "conkers" nor would a few other evertonians I know.
A frank exchange is probably just the kick up the arse this current manager needs.
If I was put in a room with Moyes I wouldn't do my "conkers" nor would a few other evertonians I know.
A frank exchange is probably just the kick up the arse this current manager needs.
Matt Traynor
37 Posted 11/11/2011 at 11:28:13
37 Posted 11/11/2011 at 11:28:13
Kevin #33, you seem to have created a new law along the lines of every over-reaction will cause an opposite, but equal over-reaction.
You are right though, it is funny how opinions gradually polarise on all things Everton.
As much as Moyes has frustrated me, I'd like to see him given some time under a new ownership (notwithstanding that possibly being a long way off!)
I do think he's in a rut. He's un-sackable as his relative over-achievement on the pitch is the fireguard for a Chairman who's motives are still to become apparent - power, money, or (my choice), both?
You are right though, it is funny how opinions gradually polarise on all things Everton.
As much as Moyes has frustrated me, I'd like to see him given some time under a new ownership (notwithstanding that possibly being a long way off!)
I do think he's in a rut. He's un-sackable as his relative over-achievement on the pitch is the fireguard for a Chairman who's motives are still to become apparent - power, money, or (my choice), both?
Milos Milenkovic
38 Posted 11/11/2011 at 11:43:44
38 Posted 11/11/2011 at 11:43:44
Tony, once again, for me to play Neville while there is Rodwell is catastrophically mistake and game against Newcastle proved that. Not only that Neville is poor in that position, but Rodwell doesn't know what he is supposed to do as well. I would be against two defensive midfielders even if they are best in the world never mind one them being right back.
As you said 4-5-1 can be a very good formation with right players, but Moyes didn't put right players. I totally disagree that other teams would walk through us if we are playing 4-4-2. That is exactly defeatist and negative approach that Moyes is using. That logic is heading to another level of defensive approach, next game we will have Hetinga, Neville, Rodwell, Fellaini in the middle and hopefully opposition will be stopped??
This is poor, so why not try to play offensive for a change?
As you said 4-5-1 can be a very good formation with right players, but Moyes didn't put right players. I totally disagree that other teams would walk through us if we are playing 4-4-2. That is exactly defeatist and negative approach that Moyes is using. That logic is heading to another level of defensive approach, next game we will have Hetinga, Neville, Rodwell, Fellaini in the middle and hopefully opposition will be stopped??
This is poor, so why not try to play offensive for a change?
Ciarán McGlone
39 Posted 11/11/2011 at 12:19:28
39 Posted 11/11/2011 at 12:19:28
Surely the 'child-like rhetoric' that was presented here 6 games in, has subsequently been proven as correct.
Mike Gwyer
40 Posted 11/11/2011 at 12:20:39
40 Posted 11/11/2011 at 12:20:39
Milos.
Give me the game or games where we played 4-4-2 and were not torn to shreads by the opposition - and if you are going to include Cahill as part of any front two formation, then you will soon realise that you are talking about playing 4-5-1. Cahill was probably one the best players in the EPL to ply his trade in this formation, and due to his lack of form and injuries - one of the main reasons Everton are looking shite.
Nick Entwistle
41 Posted 11/11/2011 at 12:44:56
41 Posted 11/11/2011 at 12:44:56
Being child-like is never correct Ciarán, though common when you extrapolate the most pointless of your arguments.
Today I have chosen luncheon meat with sweetcorn on a size 12. Shhhhhhhh...
Today I have chosen luncheon meat with sweetcorn on a size 12. Shhhhhhhh...
Kevin Hudson
43 Posted 11/11/2011 at 13:23:06
43 Posted 11/11/2011 at 13:23:06
Except the season isn't 10 games long, Ciaran.
Tony J Williams
44 Posted 11/11/2011 at 13:38:52
44 Posted 11/11/2011 at 13:38:52
"As you said 4-5-1 can be a very good formation with right players, but Moyes didn't put right players" - Right players or any players. We don't have the "right" players, that's the problem. Our "right" players have been sold off and not replaced.
"I totally disagree that other teams would walk through us if we are playing 4-4-2. That is exactly defeatist and negative approach that Moyes is using" - Defeatist and negative.....or common sense, if our 5 isn't doing it properly, how will a 4 be any better?
The attacking side may improve slightly (doubtful with the players we have) but the game isn't always played in the oppositions half. Generally possession is usually 50/50 or around 60/40, so the 60 or 40% of the time will be the other side attacking and if they are pissing thhrough the middle of our midfield and the defence is as haphazzard as it has been so far this season just simply spells disaster.
1 of the 5 can get up with the 1 (Cahill role) and the wingers can also get forward, 4-3-3 or a gung ho 4-2-4 but it's no use if the useless feckers in front of the goal constantly hit it straight at the keeper.
Adding an extra forward does not equate to instantly more attacking play, they will either be standing there waiting for the Jag's hoof or watching the 4 in midfield pass sideways and backwards and probably being disposessed because they are unable to a) get into space b) pass to a man acurately or c) dribble
"I totally disagree that other teams would walk through us if we are playing 4-4-2. That is exactly defeatist and negative approach that Moyes is using" - Defeatist and negative.....or common sense, if our 5 isn't doing it properly, how will a 4 be any better?
The attacking side may improve slightly (doubtful with the players we have) but the game isn't always played in the oppositions half. Generally possession is usually 50/50 or around 60/40, so the 60 or 40% of the time will be the other side attacking and if they are pissing thhrough the middle of our midfield and the defence is as haphazzard as it has been so far this season just simply spells disaster.
1 of the 5 can get up with the 1 (Cahill role) and the wingers can also get forward, 4-3-3 or a gung ho 4-2-4 but it's no use if the useless feckers in front of the goal constantly hit it straight at the keeper.
Adding an extra forward does not equate to instantly more attacking play, they will either be standing there waiting for the Jag's hoof or watching the 4 in midfield pass sideways and backwards and probably being disposessed because they are unable to a) get into space b) pass to a man acurately or c) dribble
Mick Gallagher
45 Posted 11/11/2011 at 13:30:18
45 Posted 11/11/2011 at 13:30:18
One fact I will quot, whether you liked Beckford or not, from the same time last season he scored 8 goals, from 2/3 of the season. That helped us kick on last season, where are the goals going to come from because we need them soon. You might say 8 goals isn't many but the way we play it would make a big diference.
Stephen Leary
46 Posted 11/11/2011 at 14:13:39
46 Posted 11/11/2011 at 14:13:39
Mike 38 ? we played against Spurs at home last season with a 4-4-2 and were excellent we won 2-1 that was followed up by a victory over Sunderland, we had Becks and Saha upfront with Rodwell and Felliani in the middle so it's utter nonsense to suggest we can't play 442; Moyes is a coward who will never change.
Tony J Williams
47 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:01:49
47 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:01:49
Stephen, who were ther other two in midfield? That's right it was the skillful Artetea and Pienaar,
Rodwell only actually came on at the end.
The 4 were Coleman, Felliani, Pienaar and Arteta.
Good point though a 4-4-2 was good on that occassion and we seemed up for it but I don't think we have the personnel now to replicate that.
Rodwell only actually came on at the end.
The 4 were Coleman, Felliani, Pienaar and Arteta.
Good point though a 4-4-2 was good on that occassion and we seemed up for it but I don't think we have the personnel now to replicate that.
Brian Waring
48 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:04:04
48 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:04:04
We could get beat in the next 6 game, and it wouldn't matter, because we will still have the ususl suspects making the excuses for Moyes.
Kevin Hudson
49 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:02:20
49 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:02:20
Matt - statistics do not over-react.
They just are.
They just are.
Kevin Hudson
50 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:06:29
50 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:06:29
We could also win the next six games, and it wouldn't matter, because we will still have the usual suspects whinging why their new flavour of the month didn't get a game, while Marsh drops off the grid.
Ultimately, by what other criteria will history judge the manager, if not for his statistical record?
By the logic of angry ToffeeWebbers demanding his sacking for providing a run of consistent top 8 returns, for the first time in a generation?
Ultimately, by what other criteria will history judge the manager, if not for his statistical record?
By the logic of angry ToffeeWebbers demanding his sacking for providing a run of consistent top 8 returns, for the first time in a generation?
Milos Milenkovic
51 Posted 11/11/2011 at 14:44:28
51 Posted 11/11/2011 at 14:44:28
Tony, you ask if our 5 isn't doing it properly, how will a 4 be any better?
So should we adopt 6 or seven?
I think we should change philosophy, we should stop be afraid of every team, we should make them worry about us. With 2 defensive midfielders, and one striker without support, there?s no chance of improving.
Mike,
I can hardly recall we used 4-4-2 if we don't count Cahill as a forward, but if I remember in couple of games with Saha and Beckford up front, we looked very good.
But to repeat again, I don't think that 4-5-1 is bad formation, if you have quality midfield. One of the best teams of all time, Brazil ?82 played in this formation. They had attacking midfielders, while we are usually having defensive midfielders.
At Newcastle our opposition didn?t need to worry much, our central midfield didn?t exist, defensively we were poor and above all we lost the game. I really don?t understand how can you be supportive of something like that?
So should we adopt 6 or seven?
I think we should change philosophy, we should stop be afraid of every team, we should make them worry about us. With 2 defensive midfielders, and one striker without support, there?s no chance of improving.
Mike,
I can hardly recall we used 4-4-2 if we don't count Cahill as a forward, but if I remember in couple of games with Saha and Beckford up front, we looked very good.
But to repeat again, I don't think that 4-5-1 is bad formation, if you have quality midfield. One of the best teams of all time, Brazil ?82 played in this formation. They had attacking midfielders, while we are usually having defensive midfielders.
At Newcastle our opposition didn?t need to worry much, our central midfield didn?t exist, defensively we were poor and above all we lost the game. I really don?t understand how can you be supportive of something like that?
Kevin Hudson
52 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:19:02
52 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:19:02
"At Newcastle our opposition didn't need to worry much."
Actually, Milos, they did. Why? Because we had more possession & more goal attempts than they did.
Again, spurious, poorly-researched, factually-refutable ale-house talk.
Actually, Milos, they did. Why? Because we had more possession & more goal attempts than they did.
Again, spurious, poorly-researched, factually-refutable ale-house talk.
Mick Gallagher
53 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:17:13
53 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:17:13
What pisses me off Moyes tell us all the time no player leaves without my say so. The football we have been playing lately is total shite predictable and so fucking boring.
Dave Lynch
54 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:31:52
54 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:31:52
Nick@39.
Go down to an 18 with a 4mm cube or a single grain.
You'll get a lot more bites my friend.....
Go down to an 18 with a 4mm cube or a single grain.
You'll get a lot more bites my friend.....
Peter Laing
55 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:39:04
55 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:39:04
Great observation Kevin Hudson # 49 we also got beat by Newcastle as you well know so all of the possession and goal attempts that we had did not matter, we ended up losing the game and I support Milo in the fact at no time during the game did we actually have the confidence or quality to win the game. From where I was watching it was zombie football, player's constantly giving the ball away and giving away possession, Coleman, Neville, Drenthe, Saha and Osman where all culpable.
Kevin Hudson
56 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:53:38
56 Posted 11/11/2011 at 15:53:38
Peter I wasn't debating whether or not we lost - as YOU well know! I was countering Milos' lazy observation.
But I agree with you that the quality was lacking.
But I agree with you that the quality was lacking.
David Hallwood
57 Posted 11/11/2011 at 17:26:05
57 Posted 11/11/2011 at 17:26:05
On the contrary Gary#32, that proves my point. When they had time the club was holding out for as much as they could get, and on the last day it was a case of get them off the books, because they didn't wait for the Jan window to see if Leicester would come back with a better offer.
We all have opinions on Moyes, but it doesn't matter how good or how bad a manager is, none of them would willingly lose 2 strikers without replacements that were up to speed, not a wild card like Denis.
We all have opinions on Moyes, but it doesn't matter how good or how bad a manager is, none of them would willingly lose 2 strikers without replacements that were up to speed, not a wild card like Denis.
Ciarán McGlone
58 Posted 11/11/2011 at 17:36:29
58 Posted 11/11/2011 at 17:36:29
Sorry nick,
We're low on carp over here, and I'm more of a 'chasing silver' man myself..
We're low on carp over here, and I'm more of a 'chasing silver' man myself..
Ciarán McGlone
59 Posted 11/11/2011 at 17:36:29
59 Posted 11/11/2011 at 17:36:29
Sorry nick,
We're low on carp over here, and I'm more of a 'chasing silver' man myself..
We're low on carp over here, and I'm more of a 'chasing silver' man myself..
Brian Denton
60 Posted 11/11/2011 at 20:41:28
60 Posted 11/11/2011 at 20:41:28
Robbie (#22) Norwich also got into the Champions League with a negative goal difference. We are not the only ones !
Andrew Rimmer
61 Posted 11/11/2011 at 21:57:10
61 Posted 11/11/2011 at 21:57:10
I am grateful to Moyesie, he stabilised the club and gave us belief, but it was dour footie that did it! Champs League placing was down to winning games 1-0 by getting goals from corners and free kicks (Cahill and Lescott!) . It was okay then as we were riding high.
Now, on the other hand, we are still playing dour footie but with no end product. Where will it end? Relegation? I think so! I feel sorry for the poor beggars (I'm the beggar, I can't afford a season ticket!) who watch this crap, week-in, week-out. I can't see us improving under Moyes at all.
Now, on the other hand, we are still playing dour footie but with no end product. Where will it end? Relegation? I think so! I feel sorry for the poor beggars (I'm the beggar, I can't afford a season ticket!) who watch this crap, week-in, week-out. I can't see us improving under Moyes at all.
Milos Milenkovic
62 Posted 11/11/2011 at 22:30:33
62 Posted 11/11/2011 at 22:30:33
Look Kevin, from my point of view and how I see football, we were rubbish. If you are satisfied with that it's good for you. That was another game which ruined my entire weekend and surely someone who saw any positives in that game had a much better time.
Robbie Shields
63 Posted 11/11/2011 at 22:21:42
63 Posted 11/11/2011 at 22:21:42
Brian #57, thanks for that, I genuinely didn't know any other team had managed that particular feat. Continuing to play Devils Advocate, we can now class the Moyes era by classing ourselves along with Norwich City, haha.
Actually that is very unfair, the Norwich City sides that qualified for Europe were amongst the best footballing sides I've ever seen. Passing, movement, breaks, always 2, 3 or even 4 players working to get into space and receive the ball, positive attacking football. It was a joy to behold, oh to see the mighty blues do that, not under Moyes I'm afraid, he wouldn't and doesn't have a clue were to start.
Norwich did that by the way without spending any money at all, just good management, coaching and positivity, all of which too many blues seems to think is impossible in the modern game. We don't have the players you see, Barkley, Drenthe, Fellaini, Baines, Rodwell and Saha are all completely rubbish, you couldn't possibly build a great footballing team around them could you (tongue firmly in cheek).
How many of them would get into the Chelsea, United, Liverpool or Arsenal sides, it's not as if any of the big clubs would be interested in any of those Donkeys is it. Not to mention that useless defender Jagielka.......... Although he is playing for England and Arsene Wenger has been trying to get him for 2 years now, but what does that muppet Wenger know anyway, have you seen the dross they play, if it wasn't for 5 completely flukey goals they would have been stuffed by Chelsea.
First thing Wenger would say to Jagielka is "Jags, if I see you hoof the ball up the field instead of passing to Arteta I'll sub you straight away, fine you a weeks wages and get you in for quadruple passing training, understood. I didn't bring Arteta here to be wasted watching the ball fly over his head in midfield to that Goliath Van Persie up front to chase around like a headless chicken looking for scraps, now go and play football and no passes longer than 30 ft, get it."
Moyes Out
Actually that is very unfair, the Norwich City sides that qualified for Europe were amongst the best footballing sides I've ever seen. Passing, movement, breaks, always 2, 3 or even 4 players working to get into space and receive the ball, positive attacking football. It was a joy to behold, oh to see the mighty blues do that, not under Moyes I'm afraid, he wouldn't and doesn't have a clue were to start.
Norwich did that by the way without spending any money at all, just good management, coaching and positivity, all of which too many blues seems to think is impossible in the modern game. We don't have the players you see, Barkley, Drenthe, Fellaini, Baines, Rodwell and Saha are all completely rubbish, you couldn't possibly build a great footballing team around them could you (tongue firmly in cheek).
How many of them would get into the Chelsea, United, Liverpool or Arsenal sides, it's not as if any of the big clubs would be interested in any of those Donkeys is it. Not to mention that useless defender Jagielka.......... Although he is playing for England and Arsene Wenger has been trying to get him for 2 years now, but what does that muppet Wenger know anyway, have you seen the dross they play, if it wasn't for 5 completely flukey goals they would have been stuffed by Chelsea.
First thing Wenger would say to Jagielka is "Jags, if I see you hoof the ball up the field instead of passing to Arteta I'll sub you straight away, fine you a weeks wages and get you in for quadruple passing training, understood. I didn't bring Arteta here to be wasted watching the ball fly over his head in midfield to that Goliath Van Persie up front to chase around like a headless chicken looking for scraps, now go and play football and no passes longer than 30 ft, get it."
Moyes Out
Kevin Hudson
64 Posted 11/11/2011 at 22:55:48
64 Posted 11/11/2011 at 22:55:48
Milos,
We controlled 55% of the play & racked up 14 goal attempts to 10. Against an unbeaten side 13 places above us, away, at a venue we've struggled to win at in the Premier League era,- you consider this "rubbish."?
As Peter says, the only stat that really counts is the scoreline & we lost; To a freak own goal & a screamer.
You made a sweeping conjecture about Newcastle "having nothing to worry about," that didn't reflect the actual event.
We controlled 55% of the play & racked up 14 goal attempts to 10. Against an unbeaten side 13 places above us, away, at a venue we've struggled to win at in the Premier League era,- you consider this "rubbish."?
As Peter says, the only stat that really counts is the scoreline & we lost; To a freak own goal & a screamer.
You made a sweeping conjecture about Newcastle "having nothing to worry about," that didn't reflect the actual event.
Robbie Shields
65 Posted 11/11/2011 at 23:49:00
65 Posted 11/11/2011 at 23:49:00
Kevin #61, I might be able to explain the statistics for the Newcastle match that you are using to try and prove we actually played well.
For a significant period in the first half, at least the first 30 minutes, Newcastle had a very high percentage of possession, it was actually up to something like 70% at one stage well into the match. They scored 2 goals and were cruising. We got a great goal from a corner (Note, not open play) and then in the second half Newcastle sat back and let us shoot from 35 yards whenever we wanted. Hence the statistics you have quoted for the end of the game. Newcastle were in very little danger and knew it. Our football was dull, dour, predictable and ineffective. If you actually watched and analysed the football you would see that the statistics you like so much don't tell the whole story, there are lots of us that understand that.
Moyes Out
For a significant period in the first half, at least the first 30 minutes, Newcastle had a very high percentage of possession, it was actually up to something like 70% at one stage well into the match. They scored 2 goals and were cruising. We got a great goal from a corner (Note, not open play) and then in the second half Newcastle sat back and let us shoot from 35 yards whenever we wanted. Hence the statistics you have quoted for the end of the game. Newcastle were in very little danger and knew it. Our football was dull, dour, predictable and ineffective. If you actually watched and analysed the football you would see that the statistics you like so much don't tell the whole story, there are lots of us that understand that.
Moyes Out
Kevin Hudson
66 Posted 12/11/2011 at 00:09:37
66 Posted 12/11/2011 at 00:09:37
We didn't go to Newcastle & play them off the park, and there were periods of the game when we were under the cosh ? all true.
They got a great goal from a screamer, and a jammy one before that. (Note, an own goal...)
If our football was as predictable as you say, then why couldn't they stop us having the most goal attempts? Or hitting the post? Or having a stone-wall penalty turned down? Why were the home fans whistling for the ref to blow with 4 minutes remaining?
My perception of the game was that a couple of fuck-ups cost us that day, rather than a particularly bad performance. The statistics only re-inforce that view.
It appears you also like statistics of your own, and I note you've completely avoided challenging my point by point dismantling of yours in post 33.
They got a great goal from a screamer, and a jammy one before that. (Note, an own goal...)
If our football was as predictable as you say, then why couldn't they stop us having the most goal attempts? Or hitting the post? Or having a stone-wall penalty turned down? Why were the home fans whistling for the ref to blow with 4 minutes remaining?
My perception of the game was that a couple of fuck-ups cost us that day, rather than a particularly bad performance. The statistics only re-inforce that view.
It appears you also like statistics of your own, and I note you've completely avoided challenging my point by point dismantling of yours in post 33.
Anto Byrne
67 Posted 12/11/2011 at 00:32:48
67 Posted 12/11/2011 at 00:32:48
Mikel Arteta is playing great football for arsenal, getting forward, scoring goals, playing with freedom to entertain. He seemed so defensive and played far to deep under Moyes... is it any wonder he didn't look half the player he is at the Arse???
Moyes plays dour dull uninspiring football, the game at Newcastle is typical of how we play, without pace, without energy, without passion, without flair. It's fucking shite and we deserve much more from EFC than the predictable boring crap being served up, week-in, week-out.
Moyes plays dour dull uninspiring football, the game at Newcastle is typical of how we play, without pace, without energy, without passion, without flair. It's fucking shite and we deserve much more from EFC than the predictable boring crap being served up, week-in, week-out.
Peter Barry
68 Posted 12/11/2011 at 00:57:00
68 Posted 12/11/2011 at 00:57:00
@ Mike Gwyer # 27 and David Halliwood # 29
sycophant (plural sycophants)
One who uses compliments to gain favor: ass-kisser, brown noser, suck up, yes man
To continue praising and defending Moyes when he is not performing to an acceptable standard is SYCOPHANCY.
I rest my case.
sycophant (plural sycophants)
One who uses compliments to gain favor: ass-kisser, brown noser, suck up, yes man
To continue praising and defending Moyes when he is not performing to an acceptable standard is SYCOPHANCY.
I rest my case.
Robbie Shields
69 Posted 12/11/2011 at 02:47:58
69 Posted 12/11/2011 at 02:47:58
Kevin, I read your post 33 and pretty much disregarded it, are you really saying it was a point by point dismantling of my observations? Seems you have dillusions of grandeur.
Some of the teams we played I'd never heard of, and woohoo, we beat them, again mostly playing shite. As soon as we came against any half decent team they ripped us to bits and EMBARRASSED us in front of the whole of Europe.
Now, can you please dismantle the not won away in 40 games, equal to a whole season, against the big 4 away in 10 years. I await your dismantling and defense of that particular piece of Moyesiah history.
Moyes Out
Some of the teams we played I'd never heard of, and woohoo, we beat them, again mostly playing shite. As soon as we came against any half decent team they ripped us to bits and EMBARRASSED us in front of the whole of Europe.
Now, can you please dismantle the not won away in 40 games, equal to a whole season, against the big 4 away in 10 years. I await your dismantling and defense of that particular piece of Moyesiah history.
Moyes Out
Anto Byrne
70 Posted 12/11/2011 at 02:56:39
70 Posted 12/11/2011 at 02:56:39
Benfica tore us to shreds and made us look worse than second-rate.
It's interesting that, if things are not working across Stanley Park the Kopshites at least have the balls to do something about it. The Spanish waiter secured them a regular top 4 position and fuck me a CL and they fucked him off. Roy lasted only a few weeks and now Dogshite is in charge until things go pear-shaped.
How long would Moyes have lasted if he had gone over there? Not that they would have wanted him anyway... but not long, I dare say. Time is up for David Moyes and his shite brand of negative dross.
It's interesting that, if things are not working across Stanley Park the Kopshites at least have the balls to do something about it. The Spanish waiter secured them a regular top 4 position and fuck me a CL and they fucked him off. Roy lasted only a few weeks and now Dogshite is in charge until things go pear-shaped.
How long would Moyes have lasted if he had gone over there? Not that they would have wanted him anyway... but not long, I dare say. Time is up for David Moyes and his shite brand of negative dross.
Ernie Baywood
71 Posted 12/11/2011 at 03:52:28
71 Posted 12/11/2011 at 03:52:28
Peter, do you think people are praising Moyes to gain favour with him? Sycophancy isn't the word you're after. It's just a pointless insult from someone who hasn't the ability to engage in a discussion.
Not usually my style to try to make someone look a cunt but if you're going to play the smartarse...
Not usually my style to try to make someone look a cunt but if you're going to play the smartarse...
Peter Barry
72 Posted 12/11/2011 at 04:17:07
72 Posted 12/11/2011 at 04:17:07
No Ernie I think the sycophants are praising the unpraisable Moyes to suck up to EACH OTHER. What a sweet buffoon you are.
Kevin Hudson
73 Posted 12/11/2011 at 09:31:29
73 Posted 12/11/2011 at 09:31:29
So, Robbie, you proviided some stats of your own to add to the argument, but "pretty much disregarded," the rebuttal to them. as anyone challenging them has "delusions of grandeur". So, what, I shouldn't bother debating then, is that it?
Why supply us with them in the first place?
Your view that Moyes's 14 wins in Europe count for nothing because he lost against top teams & only won against teams you'd "never heard of..again playing mostly shite." .. is piss-weak. You're obsessed with Everton's results against the elite clubs at home and abroad & use this to make a judgement.
Classic case of using one slice of the whole picture to frame the whole argument & a stubborn refusal to take EVERYTHING ELSE into account. The season does not revolve around the 4 away games against the TOP FOUR!
(Everton have struggled against the world's richest clubs - therefore every ToffeeWeb submission MUST end with the words: Moyes Out.)
Where we "mostly shite," winning away games at Alkmaar, Nuremburg, Kharkiv, Brann, BATE, & AEK? Likewise European home victories 6-1 & 4-0 (twice)? If a team is to be considered worthy, is it essential that you have to have heard of them first?
The Robbie Shields Litmus Test?
Moyes Going Nowhere.
Moyes In.
Why supply us with them in the first place?
Your view that Moyes's 14 wins in Europe count for nothing because he lost against top teams & only won against teams you'd "never heard of..again playing mostly shite." .. is piss-weak. You're obsessed with Everton's results against the elite clubs at home and abroad & use this to make a judgement.
Classic case of using one slice of the whole picture to frame the whole argument & a stubborn refusal to take EVERYTHING ELSE into account. The season does not revolve around the 4 away games against the TOP FOUR!
(Everton have struggled against the world's richest clubs - therefore every ToffeeWeb submission MUST end with the words: Moyes Out.)
Where we "mostly shite," winning away games at Alkmaar, Nuremburg, Kharkiv, Brann, BATE, & AEK? Likewise European home victories 6-1 & 4-0 (twice)? If a team is to be considered worthy, is it essential that you have to have heard of them first?
The Robbie Shields Litmus Test?
Moyes Going Nowhere.
Moyes In.
Robbie Shields
74 Posted 12/11/2011 at 10:34:43
74 Posted 12/11/2011 at 10:34:43
Kevin, I actually went to the Nurnburg game, the fans again were out of this world, the team however was not mostly shite, it was completely shite, did you actually watch the match? Utterly awful. Nurnburg got relegated that season and we were easily as bad as them on the night, except for 2 pieces of brilliance by Anichebe, remember him, the big strong centre forward we had before Moyes destroyed yet another talent by insisting on either playing him on the wing or up front on his own. Moyes hasn't got a clue.
I also went to Fiorentina away, bloody freezing, blowing a gale, sleet and rain, again fantastic support but utterly shite football. We ended up getting battered by a very average side.
Look at the teams you have listed, Alkmaar, Nuremburg, Kharkiv, Brann, BATE, woohoo good old Davey Moyes, one of the best managers in the world don't ya know, managed to beat those mighty teams having qualified from "The best league in the world", someone on hear recently said that Benfica wouldn't get into the top six in the EPL, well they spanked us and showed us up for what we are, shite under Moyes.
"Is it essential that I've heard of them first", well yes actually. I'm 41 years old, watched European football and the mighty blues all my life, if I haven't heard of a team that we are playing in the bloody Europa League in a tin shed of a stadium then I bloody expect us to play them off the pitch, I bet they didn't spend as much money on players as us.
MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT
I also went to Fiorentina away, bloody freezing, blowing a gale, sleet and rain, again fantastic support but utterly shite football. We ended up getting battered by a very average side.
Look at the teams you have listed, Alkmaar, Nuremburg, Kharkiv, Brann, BATE, woohoo good old Davey Moyes, one of the best managers in the world don't ya know, managed to beat those mighty teams having qualified from "The best league in the world", someone on hear recently said that Benfica wouldn't get into the top six in the EPL, well they spanked us and showed us up for what we are, shite under Moyes.
"Is it essential that I've heard of them first", well yes actually. I'm 41 years old, watched European football and the mighty blues all my life, if I haven't heard of a team that we are playing in the bloody Europa League in a tin shed of a stadium then I bloody expect us to play them off the pitch, I bet they didn't spend as much money on players as us.
MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT, MOYES OUT
Kevin Hudson
75 Posted 12/11/2011 at 10:54:52
75 Posted 12/11/2011 at 10:54:52
Then quite clearly Robbie, Everton's European level can be defined, empirically, can it not?
Better than the majority we've played, too naive/ lacking in quality to beat the bigger, more CL experienced clubs..
I'm just as dissapointed as you that we didn't majestically sweep all-comers aside...
Better than the majority we've played, too naive/ lacking in quality to beat the bigger, more CL experienced clubs..
I'm just as dissapointed as you that we didn't majestically sweep all-comers aside...
Robbie Shields
76 Posted 12/11/2011 at 22:03:00
76 Posted 12/11/2011 at 22:03:00
Kevin, "Better than the majority we've played, too naive/ lacking in quality to beat the bigger, more CL experienced clubs.."
That's a pretty fair and accurate summary, the question is who is responsible for the naivity and lack of quality? Personally I believe that is the responsibility of the Manager, I also believe that the players we have now and had then are far far better than they are showing us, again I believe that is due to the Manager.
That's a pretty fair and accurate summary, the question is who is responsible for the naivity and lack of quality? Personally I believe that is the responsibility of the Manager, I also believe that the players we have now and had then are far far better than they are showing us, again I believe that is due to the Manager.
Kevin Hudson
77 Posted 12/11/2011 at 22:13:19
77 Posted 12/11/2011 at 22:13:19
No arguments here, Robbie. Infallible, he or they, ain't.
Roman Sidey
78 Posted 13/11/2011 at 21:59:30
78 Posted 13/11/2011 at 21:59:30
Kevin Hudson, as you know I am one of the "Moyes-out" brigade. However, if (IF) we win the next 6 games, then credit will be given where due.
Last season, when we went on our post-Christmas run and played good football and won heaps of games, we weren't whinging about things Moyes was doing wrong then, rather begging the question as to why he wasn't doing the obvious right things all season.
For example, it's been said already, but when we had Becks and Louis up front together, we looked very good. Louis came out and said he struggles to play alone, and is better with another forward. So why did it take Moyes two and half seasons to see this???
Stubborn, blind, proud... take your pick. I call it inept and idiotic.
Last season, when we went on our post-Christmas run and played good football and won heaps of games, we weren't whinging about things Moyes was doing wrong then, rather begging the question as to why he wasn't doing the obvious right things all season.
For example, it's been said already, but when we had Becks and Louis up front together, we looked very good. Louis came out and said he struggles to play alone, and is better with another forward. So why did it take Moyes two and half seasons to see this???
Stubborn, blind, proud... take your pick. I call it inept and idiotic.
Michael Brien
79 Posted 15/11/2011 at 13:49:32
79 Posted 15/11/2011 at 13:49:32
Roman #75 - I think you have hit the nail on the head. A partnership of 2 strikers usually benefits both. We have 3 inexperienced strikers in Vellios,Gueye and Strac - I would have thought it would have been of great benefit to both these lads to be given some "game time" playing alongside Saha. I think we have 1 experienced striker and 3 who have potential - why not have some " rotation" then play 2 of the 4 with two on the bench. Instead of the predictable 4-5-1 that we have virtually every game ?
Michael Brien
80 Posted 15/11/2011 at 13:56:36
80 Posted 15/11/2011 at 13:56:36
Sorry that should be all three of these lads - initially I was mentioning 2 inexperienced strikers - but I forgot about Gueye - or has Moyes converted him into a winger ??
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1 Posted 10/11/2011 at 07:05:51
I mean before Moyes arrived at the club we were yo-yoing up and down the leagues like Man City and Newcastle, weren't we? When was it we last went down?? ... 1950-sumthin??
Thanks for keeping us up, Davey, you're a real star. Love your brand of football as well... Don't know we would've coped with out him these past 10 years, it's been a blast.