Season 2011-12 Fan Articles
Boring Blues?
By James Martin :: 22/11/2011
56 Comments (»Last)
I wanted to write this piece because at the moment the only thing more boring than Moyes's 4-5-1 formation is the culture of negativity hanging over the club that some fans want to endlessly perpetuate. I want to exclude from this any discussion about the non-playing side of Everton, such as the board, because frankly that's been gone over enough times to just about send anyone to sleep.
I'm talking about Moyes, his current team, and the roller-coaster ride that is supporting Everton FC. We were a mess when Moyes took us over, speaking as a young fan, he took our generation of Everton fans on a ride we had never experienced before and got us into a position where we turned up to Goodison on a Saturday knowing we had a great team who could play with the best on their day.
That team has gone now, and we're struggling at the moment in comparison to the standard of play we're used to. I, however, refuse to believe I am alone in getting excited over the prospect that Moyes could turn this around. Even a glance at the table shows that, after a horrendous run of results against the top teams, we are still looking comfortable favourites to come out behind the Money 6 (okay and perhaps maybe Newcastle this time).
Maybe not this season; maybe we have to put up with a season of turgid football... then again, maybe we don't. Maybe history will prove yet again that, more often than not, Moyes stumbles across a winning formula ? that one loan signing or youth player who changes the complexion of a season.
What is the point of going to the game if you don't have any hope that things can be turned around? After all, the 84-85 season came from nowhere, as did the 95 cup win. In 2005, we'd just sold our best player and been tipped for relegation. How are we any worse off now?
We have a good team with strong international players rather than over-the-hill old pros; we have two of English footballs best prospects and the league's best left back. Yes, we have no money at the moment, but that doesn't mean we should just throw down the white flag in the face of a challenge.
There is no achievement in just buying the world's best players, putting them in a team, then winning (although there is crippling failure, as Dogleash is demonstrating). Personally, I loved that gritty win over Wolves because it reminded me of the early Moyes years, winning the physical battles and getting the result, inching up the table and watching the optimism grow.
Every great Empire the world has known has crumbled. Try as billionaires might, you can't guarantee inevitable success. For me, that's where the joy of football has been lost. If it wasn't for the fact I want to see Everton do well, I hate the talk of 'building for success'. The idea of somehow ticking a load of boxes on a success checklist, such as new stadium, world class manager, commercial links to Asia and such. Then, with all the boxes ticked, you have your free meal pass to join the aristocratic top table and never leave.
Football shouldn't be like that; it's about that once-in-a-generation manager or player who changes everything... and from nowhere a great team is born. It's about following the ride upwards then clinging on and looking back fondly as it hurtles downwards.
Being a football 'supporter' rather than consumer means being ready to accept both success and failure, and failure shouldn't just be "Oh we didn't win the European Cup this year, oh well, let's get planning for Barcelona in the Final again next year."
Failure used to be absolutely stinking to the point of skirting with relegation. Fans used to recognise this, even have a joke and a laugh about it, then get ready for the next season and the thrill of what it might hold. Teams are only great in comparison to the rubbish that precedes or follows them. If a team wins every year then there are no more vintage teams.
I'll get roundly criticised for not being a realist in this respect; this is admittedly very idealistic. Then again, perhaps realism is looking at the history of football and the history of Moyes to see that generalised assumptions (sorry, definitive certainties on this site) about inevitable decline and never getting back to the top are wrong.
Football landscapes change if you hang in there for long enough, and Moyes has shown that he can put together a team and find players that can take us out of mediocrity and get us back to playing the football, his style of football, that's the best I've ever seen from Everton in my lifetime. Perhaps the current ride has reached the bottom of the drop and is levelling out: perhaps it might even start to inch upwards again. Perhaps the Moyesiah is leading us to the promised land (sorry, that one's especially just for you doom-mongerers).
Here's to another gritty win at Bolton and Moyes's ultra-negative 4-5-1. COYB
Reader Comments (56)
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Michael Brien
2 Posted 23/11/2011 at 07:48:26
2 Posted 23/11/2011 at 07:48:26
James, the 84-85 season didn't come from nowhere ? the foundations were laid in the previous sesaon when we reached two Wembley Finals. From January 1984, the team started to play to its potential.
I hope like you that David Moyes can turn things around. However, I am having serious doubts. You mentioned 4-5-1 the formation that Moyes favours above all others it would seem. Well if you and I and many other Evertonians can predict Moyes's tactics, then what about opposition managers/coaches?
I have had a quick look at footy news on the "net"; I think we are linked to a couple of strikers: the Russian lad at Spurs and a young guy at Chelsea. Why get excited though ? it would only be somebody else to sit on the bench and wait until Moyes gives then "the nod" on 75 minutes? If you think gritty 1-0 wins and 4-5-1 are the answer then I am sorry you are deluding yourself.
I hope like you that David Moyes can turn things around. However, I am having serious doubts. You mentioned 4-5-1 the formation that Moyes favours above all others it would seem. Well if you and I and many other Evertonians can predict Moyes's tactics, then what about opposition managers/coaches?
I have had a quick look at footy news on the "net"; I think we are linked to a couple of strikers: the Russian lad at Spurs and a young guy at Chelsea. Why get excited though ? it would only be somebody else to sit on the bench and wait until Moyes gives then "the nod" on 75 minutes? If you think gritty 1-0 wins and 4-5-1 are the answer then I am sorry you are deluding yourself.
Stephen Kenny
3 Posted 23/11/2011 at 08:16:44
3 Posted 23/11/2011 at 08:16:44
James,
I don't think even you believe what you have written?
"Maybe we will have to put up with a season of turgid football". Hasn't it been like that for at least two season's now, by and large?
"Maybe Moyes will stumble upon a winning formula". The reason you use the word 'stumble' as opposed to 'find' is because you don't believe he's got it in him to find us a different, effective way of playing.
"We have a good team with strong international players rather than over-the-hill old pros; we have two of English football's best prospects and the league's best left back. Yes, we have no money at the moment, but that doesn't mean we should just throw down the white flag in the face of a challenge". I agree. Sadly the only person associated with our club that consistently runs up the white flag is Moyes with his "we can't compete" nonsense.
"Football shouldn't be like that; it's about that once-in-a-generation manager or player who changes everything... and from nowhere a great team is born." I truly, truly believe this. One man could walk through the door and through sheer force of will and skill completely transform our club. At one point I even thought it was Moyes. Now I don't.
His own cautious nature has worked against him. The person who could make this happen for us in the state we are in needs to be a Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger type character. I don't know if theres one about because I haven't looked, but perhaps our board should think about it?
I'm 27, I've only really known Moyes type of football as a regular because I played myself up to a few years ago although I always made sure I seen the match in one way or another.
That doesn't mean I think that this "Here's to another gritty win at Bolton and Moyes's ultra-negative 4-5-1. COYB "is as good as it gets!!!"
The challenge of taking Walter's Everton and putting them back in the elite of English Football was a massive one. David Moyes weren't too far away from achieving it. With a bit more support off the pitch at certain times he may even have done it.
He deserves a lot of credit for that, but any fool can see that Moyes, the team, and the club are now going backwards. IMO he should leave with the goodwill of a lot of Evertonians while he can. Football fans are fickle at the best of times.
I don't think even you believe what you have written?
"Maybe we will have to put up with a season of turgid football". Hasn't it been like that for at least two season's now, by and large?
"Maybe Moyes will stumble upon a winning formula". The reason you use the word 'stumble' as opposed to 'find' is because you don't believe he's got it in him to find us a different, effective way of playing.
"We have a good team with strong international players rather than over-the-hill old pros; we have two of English football's best prospects and the league's best left back. Yes, we have no money at the moment, but that doesn't mean we should just throw down the white flag in the face of a challenge". I agree. Sadly the only person associated with our club that consistently runs up the white flag is Moyes with his "we can't compete" nonsense.
"Football shouldn't be like that; it's about that once-in-a-generation manager or player who changes everything... and from nowhere a great team is born." I truly, truly believe this. One man could walk through the door and through sheer force of will and skill completely transform our club. At one point I even thought it was Moyes. Now I don't.
His own cautious nature has worked against him. The person who could make this happen for us in the state we are in needs to be a Mourinho, Ferguson, Wenger type character. I don't know if theres one about because I haven't looked, but perhaps our board should think about it?
I'm 27, I've only really known Moyes type of football as a regular because I played myself up to a few years ago although I always made sure I seen the match in one way or another.
That doesn't mean I think that this "Here's to another gritty win at Bolton and Moyes's ultra-negative 4-5-1. COYB "is as good as it gets!!!"
The challenge of taking Walter's Everton and putting them back in the elite of English Football was a massive one. David Moyes weren't too far away from achieving it. With a bit more support off the pitch at certain times he may even have done it.
He deserves a lot of credit for that, but any fool can see that Moyes, the team, and the club are now going backwards. IMO he should leave with the goodwill of a lot of Evertonians while he can. Football fans are fickle at the best of times.
Richard Dodd
4 Posted 23/11/2011 at 08:57:28
4 Posted 23/11/2011 at 08:57:28
James, you think much as I do. I know only of our efforts in the Premier Age and apart from Joe Royle's Wembley success, have had little to get really excited about. But that`s why I try to see the positives in the team, the manager, and (whisper it) even the Chairman!
Otherwise, I`d be a miserable sod like so many of my fellow Evertonians.
Otherwise, I`d be a miserable sod like so many of my fellow Evertonians.
David Holroyd
5 Posted 23/11/2011 at 10:38:12
5 Posted 23/11/2011 at 10:38:12
David Moyes deserves credit, but the football we have been playing for the last 18 months has been at best poor. Noticable except for a few games. He is getting more cautious every season, due to lack of money. Maybe he should wheel and deal, get rid of Bily and Heitinga we need a striker from somewhere who scores and is mobile.
James Martin
6 Posted 23/11/2011 at 11:56:49
6 Posted 23/11/2011 at 11:56:49
It was turgid the end of last season and the beginning of this one. At the start of last season we were playing great football but couldn't win. Ironically when the standard of football decreased the results came.
I don't believe that turgid wins against Bolton are as good as it gets. Obviously I don't want Everton playing like that all the time. My point is that at the moment we are playing like that because we're not really confident enough and probably not good enough to play in a different style.
Much like the start of Moyes's reign this may have to be endured temporarily whilst the cycle of the team starts again. Results breed confidence hence why I said here's to another gritty win. If a free flowing masterclass happens then I'm not complaining, I just doubt that we are going to see that at Bolton away with both teams short of confidence short of players and needing the points.
I agree with you Stephen on Moyes running up the white flag in public, he does seem to have become a lot more negative in public, whether he's done that on the training pitch of course can only be speculation.
The fans are equally as guilty as Moyes though. You only had to look in the Jury section of the Echo for fans' letters dubbing the Wolves game a relegation 6 pointer already at this stage of the season. The amount of negativity there was ridiculous. Especially when contrasted with the unbearable positivity of the Kopites.
Deluded as they may be, surely their thinking they're going to win the league after every single win no matter how gritty it is transmits a better atmosphere to the players and manager rather than our fans predicting relegation at the merest hint of a 4-5-1 formation?
The media walks all over us because we let them. They link all our players away from us and predict doom and gloom bcause that is the culture around the club. Yes, Moyes at the moment is contributing to it but some of the fans have perpetuated it to a ridiculous extent.
I don't believe that turgid wins against Bolton are as good as it gets. Obviously I don't want Everton playing like that all the time. My point is that at the moment we are playing like that because we're not really confident enough and probably not good enough to play in a different style.
Much like the start of Moyes's reign this may have to be endured temporarily whilst the cycle of the team starts again. Results breed confidence hence why I said here's to another gritty win. If a free flowing masterclass happens then I'm not complaining, I just doubt that we are going to see that at Bolton away with both teams short of confidence short of players and needing the points.
I agree with you Stephen on Moyes running up the white flag in public, he does seem to have become a lot more negative in public, whether he's done that on the training pitch of course can only be speculation.
The fans are equally as guilty as Moyes though. You only had to look in the Jury section of the Echo for fans' letters dubbing the Wolves game a relegation 6 pointer already at this stage of the season. The amount of negativity there was ridiculous. Especially when contrasted with the unbearable positivity of the Kopites.
Deluded as they may be, surely their thinking they're going to win the league after every single win no matter how gritty it is transmits a better atmosphere to the players and manager rather than our fans predicting relegation at the merest hint of a 4-5-1 formation?
The media walks all over us because we let them. They link all our players away from us and predict doom and gloom bcause that is the culture around the club. Yes, Moyes at the moment is contributing to it but some of the fans have perpetuated it to a ridiculous extent.
Robbie Muldoon
7 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:09:56
7 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:09:56
"Football shouldn't be like that; it's about that once-in-a-generation manager or player who changes everything... and from nowhere a great team is born".
This is the hope.
Hold on, I am about to go all optimistic... Jack Rodwell, Ross Barkley, George Green... annnnd Big Dunc as the manager!
This is the hope.
Hold on, I am about to go all optimistic... Jack Rodwell, Ross Barkley, George Green... annnnd Big Dunc as the manager!
Stephen Kenny
8 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:37:39
8 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:37:39
James,
The Moyes that's in charge now is nothing like the fella that first walked into Goodison Park 10 years ago. He won't be able to achieve the same levels he's achieved in the past because the job's broken him, it would have broken a lot.
Imo, it's been turgid since Pienaar left and was poor for long periods before that.
We haven't looked solid in defence for two-and-a-half seasons, we haven't attacked with great fluency since the Yak got injured, and Moyes hasn't looked like his heart's in it fully since he dragged his heels over his contract.
We shouldn't be going to Bolton lacking confidence and you can bet your last pound we wouldn't be if we had a really good manager. Because he wouldn't be in the press telling everybody how he has to change his side's style of play because all his good footballers have left (Moyes in the Post this week), he would be saying how good his new players are and that he thinks we should win (without disrespecting the opposition) and play well.
The doom and gloom culture around the club comes from your man Moyes and his boss. They constantly belittle and insult our club in public. Only the start of last season Alex Ferguson and many on here and around the club and press were tipping us as dark horses for the title. Hardly the fans fault if our own manager can't stop telling anyone who will listen how we can't win, got no money, players are crap etc.
The Moyes that's in charge now is nothing like the fella that first walked into Goodison Park 10 years ago. He won't be able to achieve the same levels he's achieved in the past because the job's broken him, it would have broken a lot.
Imo, it's been turgid since Pienaar left and was poor for long periods before that.
We haven't looked solid in defence for two-and-a-half seasons, we haven't attacked with great fluency since the Yak got injured, and Moyes hasn't looked like his heart's in it fully since he dragged his heels over his contract.
We shouldn't be going to Bolton lacking confidence and you can bet your last pound we wouldn't be if we had a really good manager. Because he wouldn't be in the press telling everybody how he has to change his side's style of play because all his good footballers have left (Moyes in the Post this week), he would be saying how good his new players are and that he thinks we should win (without disrespecting the opposition) and play well.
The doom and gloom culture around the club comes from your man Moyes and his boss. They constantly belittle and insult our club in public. Only the start of last season Alex Ferguson and many on here and around the club and press were tipping us as dark horses for the title. Hardly the fans fault if our own manager can't stop telling anyone who will listen how we can't win, got no money, players are crap etc.
Roman Sidey
9 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:52:59
9 Posted 23/11/2011 at 12:52:59
Michael Brien, my thoughts exactly re: Pav and Romelu. When I read that gossip, the first thing I thought was, "Well, someone new for Round to chew the ear off of."
Second thought was: "Why would Harry or Andre send one of their players on loan, thus completely contradicting the whole advantage of loaning a player out."
To both of these strikers, I warn, come to Everton at your own peril.
Stephen Kenny, spot on. If Moyes were a great motivational coach, he would be talking up the fact that we have one of the most naturally gifted footballers we've had in a long time on loan at the club (Drenthe), instead of talking down our loanees lack ability to defend, defend, defend!
Second thought was: "Why would Harry or Andre send one of their players on loan, thus completely contradicting the whole advantage of loaning a player out."
To both of these strikers, I warn, come to Everton at your own peril.
Stephen Kenny, spot on. If Moyes were a great motivational coach, he would be talking up the fact that we have one of the most naturally gifted footballers we've had in a long time on loan at the club (Drenthe), instead of talking down our loanees lack ability to defend, defend, defend!
Steve Guy
10 Posted 23/11/2011 at 13:09:16
10 Posted 23/11/2011 at 13:09:16
Stephen #7 Spot on. Nail on head.
We are Everton and it's about time Moyes and the players remembered that fact and started talkng us up a lot more.
I get really annoyed now with the "we've no money" line which seems to be his pre / post match mantra. Although he now seems to be adding negative comments in about his players too, which must be very motivational!
He needs to give us something positive. He needs to give the fans and the players a Call to Arms rallying cry. Sod the lack of money, and sod the the crap Board. Get back to being the People's Club and the People's Manager.
We are Everton and it's about time Moyes and the players remembered that fact and started talkng us up a lot more.
I get really annoyed now with the "we've no money" line which seems to be his pre / post match mantra. Although he now seems to be adding negative comments in about his players too, which must be very motivational!
He needs to give us something positive. He needs to give the fans and the players a Call to Arms rallying cry. Sod the lack of money, and sod the the crap Board. Get back to being the People's Club and the People's Manager.
Danny Jones
11 Posted 23/11/2011 at 13:27:56
11 Posted 23/11/2011 at 13:27:56
Good piece James.
Being called a dreamer is not an insult.
Being called a dreamer is not an insult.
Wayne Smyth
12 Posted 23/11/2011 at 13:34:41
12 Posted 23/11/2011 at 13:34:41
Stephen (7) hits the nail on the head. Moyes is not the man who walked through the doors 10 years ago with energy, drive and a steely determination to raise expectations.
He is his own worst enemy in many respects with a defeatist attitude, talking down our chances and ability at every opportunity. To me, this seems self-interested arse-covering of the worst kind and it sends our players out bereft of confidence.
James, I'm 35. I can remember all of Moyes's years in charge. The football has never been good, with the exception of possibly a few games you could count on one hand, especially around the time Donovan came on loan and we had two very good wingers. Aside from the performances, the results have occasionally been very good and even fairly consistent at times, culminating in our solitary 4th place finish.
I also hope for Moyes to adapt to his new circumstances and find a way to get his team ? because they're all his players he bought or renewed ? to play football like it's not the first time they've ever played together.
Unfortunately I'm also a realist and understand that if we've been playing dour, low risk, 4-5-1 fairly consistently for years, it's unlikely Moyes is going to change at this point.
Change is always stressful, moving into the unknown, wondering how things will turn out. I don't think any of us were completely relaxed the day Wally left and a young, unknown manager from Preston walked through the door. Turned out to be a very astute decision by Kenwright though. Pity that we hung onto him 5 years past his best-before date.
He is his own worst enemy in many respects with a defeatist attitude, talking down our chances and ability at every opportunity. To me, this seems self-interested arse-covering of the worst kind and it sends our players out bereft of confidence.
James, I'm 35. I can remember all of Moyes's years in charge. The football has never been good, with the exception of possibly a few games you could count on one hand, especially around the time Donovan came on loan and we had two very good wingers. Aside from the performances, the results have occasionally been very good and even fairly consistent at times, culminating in our solitary 4th place finish.
I also hope for Moyes to adapt to his new circumstances and find a way to get his team ? because they're all his players he bought or renewed ? to play football like it's not the first time they've ever played together.
Unfortunately I'm also a realist and understand that if we've been playing dour, low risk, 4-5-1 fairly consistently for years, it's unlikely Moyes is going to change at this point.
Change is always stressful, moving into the unknown, wondering how things will turn out. I don't think any of us were completely relaxed the day Wally left and a young, unknown manager from Preston walked through the door. Turned out to be a very astute decision by Kenwright though. Pity that we hung onto him 5 years past his best-before date.
Michael Brien
13 Posted 23/11/2011 at 13:48:24
13 Posted 23/11/2011 at 13:48:24
I totally agree with Stephen, Roman and Steve. A key expression that has cropped up is "motivational coach". I think David Moyes has become increasingly defeatist in some of his comments. He has become a footballing version of "Neville Chamberlain".
We need talking up and a rallying cry as Steve #9 pointed out; instead, as Roman mentioned, Moyes seems to talk the players down and put emphasis on what they can't do rather than stressing what they can do. Drenthe for instance may not be good at tracking back/defending but is he in the team to defend?
I can't remember Andy Gray putting in many goal-saving tackles/clearances or Kevin Ratcliffe scoring loads of goals (except for that "cracker" at Anfield!!) but Gray was in the team as an attacker, Ratcliffe a defender.
I think we have a good squad ? and I think it's time our manager started to "talk up" the players abilities rather than go on about their weaknesses. Moyes's apparent defeatism I think harms the confidence of the players.
We need talking up and a rallying cry as Steve #9 pointed out; instead, as Roman mentioned, Moyes seems to talk the players down and put emphasis on what they can't do rather than stressing what they can do. Drenthe for instance may not be good at tracking back/defending but is he in the team to defend?
I can't remember Andy Gray putting in many goal-saving tackles/clearances or Kevin Ratcliffe scoring loads of goals (except for that "cracker" at Anfield!!) but Gray was in the team as an attacker, Ratcliffe a defender.
I think we have a good squad ? and I think it's time our manager started to "talk up" the players abilities rather than go on about their weaknesses. Moyes's apparent defeatism I think harms the confidence of the players.
Tony J Williams
14 Posted 23/11/2011 at 14:06:44
14 Posted 23/11/2011 at 14:06:44
"The Moyes that's in charge now is nothing like the fella that first walked into Goodison park 10 years ago" ? he is now a millionnaire who seemingly can't be arsed with wheeling and dealing with a pittence to get players in.
All this under the watchful eyes of the 30,000 "experts" who know that all we have to do is put a youngster up front with Saha and all our troubles will be solved.......
I have said it before, I would have left ages ago if I were him. Whatever good feelings were won by his purple patch of the "European Years" are being undone by having to sell his best players and try and shop at JR's 50p shop on the vale. We can't even afford Aldi anymore. We have had the smallest squad for years and it is reducing al the time, especially on the quality front.
All this under the watchful eyes of the 30,000 "experts" who know that all we have to do is put a youngster up front with Saha and all our troubles will be solved.......
I have said it before, I would have left ages ago if I were him. Whatever good feelings were won by his purple patch of the "European Years" are being undone by having to sell his best players and try and shop at JR's 50p shop on the vale. We can't even afford Aldi anymore. We have had the smallest squad for years and it is reducing al the time, especially on the quality front.
Michael Brien
15 Posted 23/11/2011 at 17:26:08
15 Posted 23/11/2011 at 17:26:08
Tony, nobody is saying that putting a youngster up front alongside Saha will solve all our problems. But Moyes doesn't give these guys a chance, so HOW do we know if they are good enough?
There are plenty of times in our history when youngsters have done well, eg, Royle, Whittle... I am sure that you could add to the list. However, these guys where given a chance ? does Moyes give the young players a chance? According to the Media, he does!!! Personally, I don't think that he does.
Vellios ? is he the answer? Well he hasn't exactly been given a run in the team has he? Or do you think the odd 15 minutes here and there is enough?
As for Strac, well he was joint leading scorer in the Argentinian Top Flight, playing for one of the less fancied teams. Has he been given much of a chance? How do we know what these players are capable of when they are left on the bench and given the last 10 or 15 minutes to show what they can do?
Vellios came on for the last 10 minutes at Man City and in that time he still showed more of a threat to the City defence than some of his more experienced colleagues had done in the previous 80 minutes. But it is surely expecting too much of most players to change a game in the last few minutes.
Moyes hides behind the old excuse of not having any money. Maybe he can't match the likes of the Mega Rich clubs but there are plenty of other clubs/managers who don't have vast amounts of money to spend. Brendan Rodgers at Swansea hasn't exactly got a team full of household names has he? Yet they gave Liverpool a shock at Anfield. And they play a very entertaining passing game.
The squad is reducing all the time ? the loss of Arteta... well, I didn't want to see him go. But hang on ? didn't Moyes say that he had agreed to the sale?
You say 30,000 experts, Tony ? we aren't scoring enough goals... and we play ONE striker. Do we really need to put Sherlock Holmes on the case? Perhaps ? and I said PERHAPS if we tried two strikers, we might just have a chance of scoring some more goals?
And as regards the lack of funds... well, if we are so strapped for cash, can you explain the logic of having a Russian International who cost £9.5M on the bench? Is that not a waste?
There are plenty of times in our history when youngsters have done well, eg, Royle, Whittle... I am sure that you could add to the list. However, these guys where given a chance ? does Moyes give the young players a chance? According to the Media, he does!!! Personally, I don't think that he does.
Vellios ? is he the answer? Well he hasn't exactly been given a run in the team has he? Or do you think the odd 15 minutes here and there is enough?
As for Strac, well he was joint leading scorer in the Argentinian Top Flight, playing for one of the less fancied teams. Has he been given much of a chance? How do we know what these players are capable of when they are left on the bench and given the last 10 or 15 minutes to show what they can do?
Vellios came on for the last 10 minutes at Man City and in that time he still showed more of a threat to the City defence than some of his more experienced colleagues had done in the previous 80 minutes. But it is surely expecting too much of most players to change a game in the last few minutes.
Moyes hides behind the old excuse of not having any money. Maybe he can't match the likes of the Mega Rich clubs but there are plenty of other clubs/managers who don't have vast amounts of money to spend. Brendan Rodgers at Swansea hasn't exactly got a team full of household names has he? Yet they gave Liverpool a shock at Anfield. And they play a very entertaining passing game.
The squad is reducing all the time ? the loss of Arteta... well, I didn't want to see him go. But hang on ? didn't Moyes say that he had agreed to the sale?
You say 30,000 experts, Tony ? we aren't scoring enough goals... and we play ONE striker. Do we really need to put Sherlock Holmes on the case? Perhaps ? and I said PERHAPS if we tried two strikers, we might just have a chance of scoring some more goals?
And as regards the lack of funds... well, if we are so strapped for cash, can you explain the logic of having a Russian International who cost £9.5M on the bench? Is that not a waste?
Gavin Ramejkis
16 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:01:43
16 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:01:43
Saha himself said he can't do the lone striker anymore and enjoyed playing alongside Beckford... what does Gollum do then but sell Beckford and play Saha up front on his own... or even throw Vellios up front on his own against Fulham, making him look shite.
Moyes looks resigned to defeat and has lost any desire, merely going through the motions and coming out with defeatist bollocks before a ball has even been kicked in a game.
Moyes looks resigned to defeat and has lost any desire, merely going through the motions and coming out with defeatist bollocks before a ball has even been kicked in a game.
James Martin
17 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:06:50
17 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:06:50
Wayne, how have we hung on to Moyes for five years too long? It was only 2009 when we got to the Cup Final! In fact, aside from the 04-05 season, all of our consistent football came after his first 5 years.
How can people say the football has never been good compared to what went before it? He replaced has-been yard dogs with good players like Arteta, Pienaar, Baines and Lescott. Some of the games under his tenure have been great to go and see and I'm not just talking about odd ones, there were times in some seasons when a team like Hull or West Ham would come to Goodison and you knew they were going to get beaten by a few goals before the game had even started, such was the form the team was in.
At their best Arteta and Pienaar could dominate games all by themselves. There's been some brilliant goals, brilliant players, and great performances under Moyes's tenure. Don't let a bit of disillusionment at the moment just because the team's not at that standard any more cloud Moyes's whole reign.
How can people say the football has never been good compared to what went before it? He replaced has-been yard dogs with good players like Arteta, Pienaar, Baines and Lescott. Some of the games under his tenure have been great to go and see and I'm not just talking about odd ones, there were times in some seasons when a team like Hull or West Ham would come to Goodison and you knew they were going to get beaten by a few goals before the game had even started, such was the form the team was in.
At their best Arteta and Pienaar could dominate games all by themselves. There's been some brilliant goals, brilliant players, and great performances under Moyes's tenure. Don't let a bit of disillusionment at the moment just because the team's not at that standard any more cloud Moyes's whole reign.
Sam Hoare
18 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:19:49
18 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:19:49
All those claiming that playing two strikers is the automatic cure ask Man City fans who watched the Napoli game last night.
They played two strikers and got overrun in midfield completely. Now they will do well to qualify.
The days of 4-4-2 are numbered for now. Take a look around. Moyes is tactician who knows this. It might be worth the occasional gamble but it is not that simple.
They played two strikers and got overrun in midfield completely. Now they will do well to qualify.
The days of 4-4-2 are numbered for now. Take a look around. Moyes is tactician who knows this. It might be worth the occasional gamble but it is not that simple.
Milos Milenkovic
19 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:29:41
19 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:29:41
Sam, they are playing with two strikers every game, so you took a bad example to prove that Moyes is the best manger in history of football.
Christopher Kelly
20 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:42:14
20 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:42:14
Ummm, Man City also are leading the league by five points and beat Man U 6-1 and have slaughtered just about everyone up until yesterday, Bayern a while back and QPR...
I don't really see your point, Sam...
(And that game yesterday vs Napoli was a sure cracker!)
I don't really see your point, Sam...
(And that game yesterday vs Napoli was a sure cracker!)
Andy Crooks
21 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:44:49
21 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:44:49
Tony J, you are absolutely right. Every day that David Moyes hangs around damages his legacy. Five years ago he could have been Ferguson's successor. Not any more. The longer he stays the fewer his options are when he goes.
I just can't see what is here for him apart from money and/or loyalty. Moyes to Celtic with the compensation going to Norwich for Lambert. Everyone's happy. By the way, this is not meant to be an attack on Neil Lennon for whom I have a lot of admiration; getting out of Glasgow would be the best thing that could happen to the stubborn git.
I just can't see what is here for him apart from money and/or loyalty. Moyes to Celtic with the compensation going to Norwich for Lambert. Everyone's happy. By the way, this is not meant to be an attack on Neil Lennon for whom I have a lot of admiration; getting out of Glasgow would be the best thing that could happen to the stubborn git.
Jay Harris
22 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:37:32
22 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:37:32
The problems we have are not just down to Moyes.
How can any team compete with clubs buying £200 to 300 million squads and paying wage bills of £150 million a year?
Then you have a chairman and "friends of Everton" who have not just failed to put a penny of their own money towards the club but are so inept they have done nothing to increase revenues and have sold or mortgaged every asset that they inherited over the last 10 years followed by the sale of key players such as Lescott, Rooney, Arteta and Pienaar.
I agree with Stephen Kenny that Moyes is now shot... in fact, I even suggested 2 years ago that he should resign in protest and leave with a lot of goodwill but let's look at the reasons not dance on the man's grave.
I do believe that the only reason he stayed was for the players and supporters and not because he took 30 pieces of silver from his mutual admirer and therefore we should treat him with a bit more dignity. Let's look forward to new owners and a new manager before next season. It will be the only hope for us to keep some sanity.
How can any team compete with clubs buying £200 to 300 million squads and paying wage bills of £150 million a year?
Then you have a chairman and "friends of Everton" who have not just failed to put a penny of their own money towards the club but are so inept they have done nothing to increase revenues and have sold or mortgaged every asset that they inherited over the last 10 years followed by the sale of key players such as Lescott, Rooney, Arteta and Pienaar.
I agree with Stephen Kenny that Moyes is now shot... in fact, I even suggested 2 years ago that he should resign in protest and leave with a lot of goodwill but let's look at the reasons not dance on the man's grave.
I do believe that the only reason he stayed was for the players and supporters and not because he took 30 pieces of silver from his mutual admirer and therefore we should treat him with a bit more dignity. Let's look forward to new owners and a new manager before next season. It will be the only hope for us to keep some sanity.
Sam Hoare
23 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:00:54
23 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:00:54
Milos and Christopher, maybe I'm wrong but haven't they mostly be playing one striker (usually Dzeko or Balotelli) with then Silva and Aguero in behind or on the wings?
Pretty sure they haven't been playing 4-4-2 all season
Pretty sure they haven't been playing 4-4-2 all season
Christopher Kelly
24 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:58:46
24 Posted 23/11/2011 at 18:58:46
Of course Moyes should have moved on by now but guess what??? He's now set for life.
I have met a couple footballers in my day and guess what, a lot of them are mercenaries and will play for teams they don't want to for the money. It's just like any job that pays really, really well (but is a lot cooler!).
I see something a little more wicked here. I see a manager whose tactics aren't really to win, but to mitigate losses so as to remain in the Premier League. End of. He doesn't need to win shit or even really go for it, he just has to some way, any way keep them up.
The board is most likely taking cream off the top and riding this wave of money as long as they can -- You don't think it can happen?? It's happening in baseball right now. The LA Dodgers have a thief of an owner who is basically using the baseball team to leverage everything and anything to the point where he almost couldn't even pay his players a little while back. He's a complete scam artist. He's being sussed out and I think will eventually get indicted.
Anyways, that's my opinion, I hope I'm wrong but I think the club is rotten to the core and it sickens me. When transparency gets shrouded (no more Anual General Meetings etc), it is a very bad sign and nothing good really can come from it...
Obviously Moyes should've left a while ago but why stop the gravy train? He's now set for life.
I have met a couple footballers in my day and guess what, a lot of them are mercenaries and will play for teams they don't want to for the money. It's just like any job that pays really, really well (but is a lot cooler!).
I see something a little more wicked here. I see a manager whose tactics aren't really to win, but to mitigate losses so as to remain in the Premier League. End of. He doesn't need to win shit or even really go for it, he just has to some way, any way keep them up.
The board is most likely taking cream off the top and riding this wave of money as long as they can -- You don't think it can happen?? It's happening in baseball right now. The LA Dodgers have a thief of an owner who is basically using the baseball team to leverage everything and anything to the point where he almost couldn't even pay his players a little while back. He's a complete scam artist. He's being sussed out and I think will eventually get indicted.
Anyways, that's my opinion, I hope I'm wrong but I think the club is rotten to the core and it sickens me. When transparency gets shrouded (no more Anual General Meetings etc), it is a very bad sign and nothing good really can come from it...
Obviously Moyes should've left a while ago but why stop the gravy train? He's now set for life.
Gavin Ramejkis
25 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:05:02
25 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:05:02
Sam, pretty odd point you are trying to make there seeing as Aguerro is a striker QED two strikers on the pitch, Silva is an attacking midfielder and probably Man City's best player... Comparing that to Moyes's brand of 4-5-1 with at least two defensive midfielders in it is like comparing caviar to cod's roe.
Anthony Jones
26 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:16:41
26 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:16:41
Barkley should be allowed to play and to then play his own game. He shouldn't be burdened with much defensive responsibility. Same for Drenthe and whoever plays up front.
It is far too simple to argue that defensive tactics get results. Whilst they can and do, it is far better to have balance. Let your best players play. Let players take risks in the final third.
TBH, I think the crowd often exacerbate the problem by laying into players that give the ball away in the final third. Who gives a fuck if you lose the ball 70% of the time if you end up clear winners.
MOYES OUT
It is far too simple to argue that defensive tactics get results. Whilst they can and do, it is far better to have balance. Let your best players play. Let players take risks in the final third.
TBH, I think the crowd often exacerbate the problem by laying into players that give the ball away in the final third. Who gives a fuck if you lose the ball 70% of the time if you end up clear winners.
MOYES OUT
Christopher Kelly
27 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:31:48
27 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:31:48
When your joint leading scorer is your center half, center mid, left fullback and striker who can barely get off the bench, doesn't that really say it all???
Sam Hoare
28 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:32:11
28 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:32:11
Your right Gavin, Man City is not a good comparison in any way!
Just thought that last demonstrated when teams are levelly matched that playing 4-4-2 can be disastrous and not the instant cure that some on here believe it to be.
Just thought that last demonstrated when teams are levelly matched that playing 4-4-2 can be disastrous and not the instant cure that some on here believe it to be.
Gavin Ramejkis
29 Posted 23/11/2011 at 20:12:20
29 Posted 23/11/2011 at 20:12:20
City shouldn't have played Dzeko last night, it was much better suited to Aguerro but if the Napoli keeper hadn't fluked the save off Balotelli they would have had a draw even with a poorer choice second striker.
Everton continue to play an isolated lone striker who is now having to go out to the corner flag to collect the ball or drop to the halfway line to collect it, how the hell can they score so far from the goal?
Everton continue to play an isolated lone striker who is now having to go out to the corner flag to collect the ball or drop to the halfway line to collect it, how the hell can they score so far from the goal?
Brian Waring
30 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:38:42
30 Posted 23/11/2011 at 19:38:42
James ? "Moyes could turn this around."
There lies the problem James, that seems to be one of the most used phrases over the last few seasons. Maybe just for once, we could be in a position where we don't have to turn it round.
There lies the problem James, that seems to be one of the most used phrases over the last few seasons. Maybe just for once, we could be in a position where we don't have to turn it round.
Stephen Leary
31 Posted 23/11/2011 at 20:29:57
31 Posted 23/11/2011 at 20:29:57
He won't get us relegated but, even with some money in Jan and in the summer, we will never win anything under Moyes... Cup final, cup semi-final, Sporting... etc all prove that ? and them games were when we had an even better squad.
Roman Sidey
32 Posted 23/11/2011 at 20:18:49
32 Posted 23/11/2011 at 20:18:49
Sam, 4-4-2 might not be the saviour that brings us Premier League glory, but it could change things a little bit. I guarantee you we won't win a trophy with Moyes playing his current set up.
You're really clutching at straws in your defense of Moyes this season. If he had any sense of dignity he would resign.
You're really clutching at straws in your defense of Moyes this season. If he had any sense of dignity he would resign.
Sam Hoare
33 Posted 23/11/2011 at 21:06:19
33 Posted 23/11/2011 at 21:06:19
Roman, why on earth should he resign?
Because we're 13th in the league despite spending nothing again. Because he's generally lauded by other teams and fans as one of the best managers in the league....or because a few moaners on ToffeeWeb think we should be playing like Barcelona every week?!
Do you go to Goodison? Most of the match-going fans are behind him most of the time and rightly so. He's far from perfect but he's done us great service and deserves better than cretins expecting his resignation because we're not winning the league.
I'm not saying that a change would necessarily be bad but you can't honestly back up your last comment.
Because we're 13th in the league despite spending nothing again. Because he's generally lauded by other teams and fans as one of the best managers in the league....or because a few moaners on ToffeeWeb think we should be playing like Barcelona every week?!
Do you go to Goodison? Most of the match-going fans are behind him most of the time and rightly so. He's far from perfect but he's done us great service and deserves better than cretins expecting his resignation because we're not winning the league.
I'm not saying that a change would necessarily be bad but you can't honestly back up your last comment.
Gavin Ramejkis
34 Posted 23/11/2011 at 22:58:34
34 Posted 23/11/2011 at 22:58:34
Sam, it's a bit far fetched to say everyone going to Goodison is behind Moyes too; I go and he infuriates me.
For the best part of 10 years, I've seen the same mistakes repeated until they have gone beyond being tiring and joys to behold... like everyone back for corners and set pieces, and a lone striker no matter who the opposition, or the old favourite: subs coming on with less than 10 or 15 minutes to go.
Maybe a lot of people at Goodison go to watch the team, not the manager, in the hope they might be entertained and watch some good football. I certainly do not go to watch the manager.
For the best part of 10 years, I've seen the same mistakes repeated until they have gone beyond being tiring and joys to behold... like everyone back for corners and set pieces, and a lone striker no matter who the opposition, or the old favourite: subs coming on with less than 10 or 15 minutes to go.
Maybe a lot of people at Goodison go to watch the team, not the manager, in the hope they might be entertained and watch some good football. I certainly do not go to watch the manager.
Brendan McLaughlin
35 Posted 23/11/2011 at 23:06:42
35 Posted 23/11/2011 at 23:06:42
Gavin #36
I don't think Sam is saying everyone going to Goodison is behind Moyes... but if this site was reflective of more than the 02 crew, surely it would manifest itself at the ground?
I don't think Sam is saying everyone going to Goodison is behind Moyes... but if this site was reflective of more than the 02 crew, surely it would manifest itself at the ground?
Phil Bellis
38 Posted 24/11/2011 at 00:36:09
38 Posted 24/11/2011 at 00:36:09
Brendan, you should have heard the growling in the Lower Gwladys to "Change it now Moyes ffs, what's up with yer" becoming more vocal with each minute of bench inactivity.
James Stewart
39 Posted 24/11/2011 at 00:49:31
39 Posted 24/11/2011 at 00:49:31
I no longer go. And that is because of Moyes. My last game was the home defeat by Newcastle last year. That was the final straw. Not much as changed since and I won't pay anymore hard earned money to watch his continual dross.
Sam Hoare
40 Posted 24/11/2011 at 07:18:09
40 Posted 24/11/2011 at 07:18:09
Admittedly I'm not a regular goer but when I have been I have always felt that 'on the whole' people are behind the manager. Not everyone obviously but the large majority.
Of course when things aren't going your way, everyone gets frustrated and blame goes everywhere; I've cursed Moyes in my time aplenty but mostly people have been supportive of the manager and the work he has done for us.
If more matchgoing fans feel Moyes should resign than not then that is obviously a problem... but, for me, I have never felt that to be the case. So far.
Of course when things aren't going your way, everyone gets frustrated and blame goes everywhere; I've cursed Moyes in my time aplenty but mostly people have been supportive of the manager and the work he has done for us.
If more matchgoing fans feel Moyes should resign than not then that is obviously a problem... but, for me, I have never felt that to be the case. So far.
Michael Brien
41 Posted 24/11/2011 at 07:34:30
41 Posted 24/11/2011 at 07:34:30
Sam - I am not saying 4-4-2 is the answer but what is surely the answer is to be a bit more adventurous and have a bit more variety in your tactics not the same old ,same old, same old 4-5-1 against everyone. If we got drawn in the Cup against a Non league team at Goodison - I reckon Moyes would play 4-5-1. THAT is the problem....... Moyes plays the same tactics for virtually every game.
Sam Hoare
42 Posted 24/11/2011 at 09:26:49
42 Posted 24/11/2011 at 09:26:49
Michael, you're not wrong. I'm definitely not opposed to a more adventurous approach at times and Moyes is undoubtedly guilty of sticking to his guns at times.
I do think he does vary his tactics a little more than people give him credit for but always around a 4-5-1 theme.
I do think he does vary his tactics a little more than people give him credit for but always around a 4-5-1 theme.
Jay Harris
43 Posted 24/11/2011 at 15:28:46
43 Posted 24/11/2011 at 15:28:46
I don't think it's so much the tactics as the lack of enthusiasm amongst the players and the manager.
They are clearly not enjoying things, neither are the supporters, resulting in a mausoleum of a ground with limp action on the pitch.
We do play much better away from home (City excepted) because there is less pressure on the players and the vocal support is better.
They are clearly not enjoying things, neither are the supporters, resulting in a mausoleum of a ground with limp action on the pitch.
We do play much better away from home (City excepted) because there is less pressure on the players and the vocal support is better.
Roman Sidey
44 Posted 24/11/2011 at 23:12:24
44 Posted 24/11/2011 at 23:12:24
Sam, to answer your question, I think Moyes should resign because he is obviously incapable of getting the most out of what he has now. It is what happens or should happen in every line of work in this world. He cries poor, that the club has no money to give him, yet he is taking more than anyone from it.
"Because we're 13th in the league despite spending nothing again. Because he's generally lauded by other teams and fans as one of the best managers in the league..."
Well, 13th in the league is not good, by any stretch of the imagination.
Other teams can laud over him all they want, but it's the fans of EVERTON FC that he needs to impress, not SAF, Wenger, and whoever the fuck else is going around.
And to add to that, it's been a very long time since anyone actually did laud over him as a manager like they used to .
Out of ideas, out of energy, out of time.
Moyes out.
"Because we're 13th in the league despite spending nothing again. Because he's generally lauded by other teams and fans as one of the best managers in the league..."
Well, 13th in the league is not good, by any stretch of the imagination.
Other teams can laud over him all they want, but it's the fans of EVERTON FC that he needs to impress, not SAF, Wenger, and whoever the fuck else is going around.
And to add to that, it's been a very long time since anyone actually did laud over him as a manager like they used to .
Out of ideas, out of energy, out of time.
Moyes out.
Jimmy Sørheim
45 Posted 25/11/2011 at 04:00:11
45 Posted 25/11/2011 at 04:00:11
Moyes must resign and the fans must revolt against him. That is the only way he will leave.
To be honest, I don't care if he saves us from relegation, watching Everton these days is worse than watching a bad soap opera playing the same old characters and the same old storyline over and over and over again. I am sick to death of it, I just cant stand what Moyes stands for anymore, he has been found out.
After last season people started doubting him and rightly so, he built up expectations only to lose badly, and this year he does the opposite and still loses badly. I think watching paint dry is more fun than watching Everton and Moyes trying to play hoofball and hoping for a goal. Problem is we are going too see even more of the same shit as Moyes now said after the Wolves game.
I just can't comprehend how anyone would want to pay too see Moyes and his old boys play hoofball, only for us to lose in the end. I pray that Everton fans open their mouths and start a fans unrest so we can get rid of that boring man.
To be honest, I don't care if he saves us from relegation, watching Everton these days is worse than watching a bad soap opera playing the same old characters and the same old storyline over and over and over again. I am sick to death of it, I just cant stand what Moyes stands for anymore, he has been found out.
After last season people started doubting him and rightly so, he built up expectations only to lose badly, and this year he does the opposite and still loses badly. I think watching paint dry is more fun than watching Everton and Moyes trying to play hoofball and hoping for a goal. Problem is we are going too see even more of the same shit as Moyes now said after the Wolves game.
I just can't comprehend how anyone would want to pay too see Moyes and his old boys play hoofball, only for us to lose in the end. I pray that Everton fans open their mouths and start a fans unrest so we can get rid of that boring man.
Stephen Kenny
46 Posted 25/11/2011 at 06:48:23
46 Posted 25/11/2011 at 06:48:23
Everton fans will never revolt against Moyes, not in a million years. Too many are extremely grateful to him for giving us a bit of dignity back.
Despite the fact I don't want him in charge I'm not blind to what he did for this club in the first 5-7 years of his reign and I wouldn't like to see him turned on. That said, football fans can turn quicker than milk.
My own opinion is that he's waiting for a takeover or a big job offer. The longer he stays and perseveres with this crap style of football that's no longer effective, the less likely the big job offer is.
Despite the fact I don't want him in charge I'm not blind to what he did for this club in the first 5-7 years of his reign and I wouldn't like to see him turned on. That said, football fans can turn quicker than milk.
My own opinion is that he's waiting for a takeover or a big job offer. The longer he stays and perseveres with this crap style of football that's no longer effective, the less likely the big job offer is.
David Ellis
47 Posted 25/11/2011 at 07:25:05
47 Posted 25/11/2011 at 07:25:05
The thrill of the next season has gone for me. We could win 15 games on the trot and it would lead to nowhere because off the field we are now in a different league with the leading clubs. We can't compete and I can't live with that.
Several times in the 70s we had shocking seasons. We didn't win anything after 1970 (until '84). But, even so, every summer there was hope in the air. We were just a few players away or one season away from winning the league (at least in our hearts). We came close a couple of times (74 and 78)... However, now the hope has been crushed out of me by the off the field inbalances.
Moyes brought some of the hope back ? but did it by overspending. We out performed and almost won the Cup, almost got into the Champions League Group stages. But we didn't. The gamble failed. The moment has passed.
I need to go and re-calibrate my expectations before I can watch the team again.
Several times in the 70s we had shocking seasons. We didn't win anything after 1970 (until '84). But, even so, every summer there was hope in the air. We were just a few players away or one season away from winning the league (at least in our hearts). We came close a couple of times (74 and 78)... However, now the hope has been crushed out of me by the off the field inbalances.
Moyes brought some of the hope back ? but did it by overspending. We out performed and almost won the Cup, almost got into the Champions League Group stages. But we didn't. The gamble failed. The moment has passed.
I need to go and re-calibrate my expectations before I can watch the team again.
Michael Brien
48 Posted 25/11/2011 at 07:22:07
48 Posted 25/11/2011 at 07:22:07
Sam ? I would rather see Moyes change his approach/tactics or more accurately vary his tactics than see him leave. I really do want to see him successful. However, I am having very grave doubts as to whether he can change. In my opinion, he is as stubborn as Gordon Lee.
When I was a student at Christ's College back in 1975-79 I recall how, when Lee first took over, there was a real buzz around Goodison on match days. We played some great attacking football with the likes of Thomas, Latchford and McKenzie. However, it didn't and couldn't last ? Lee showed that he would rather play Pearson or Telfer rather than McKenzie. He was very stubborn... and so I am afraid is David Moyes.
I hope he can change but Sam, I really do doubt that he can.
When I was a student at Christ's College back in 1975-79 I recall how, when Lee first took over, there was a real buzz around Goodison on match days. We played some great attacking football with the likes of Thomas, Latchford and McKenzie. However, it didn't and couldn't last ? Lee showed that he would rather play Pearson or Telfer rather than McKenzie. He was very stubborn... and so I am afraid is David Moyes.
I hope he can change but Sam, I really do doubt that he can.
David Ellis
49 Posted 25/11/2011 at 07:45:29
49 Posted 25/11/2011 at 07:45:29
No.2 - Michael Brian
1984 did come from nowhere. In January 84 we were relegation fodder. We did not lose another game until the League Cup semi-final second leg (but won on aggregate).
By August, we had won the FA Cup and beaten Liverpool in the Charity Shield and were playing keep ball against them at Wembley. Toying with them. I had never seen anything like it. It was an astonishing transformation.
Two players had been added in that 8 month period ? Van den Hauwe and Bracewell. Andy Gray also arrived in late 83 or early 84. None of them big money signings. All the players suddenly came good at the same time.
1984 did come from nowhere. In January 84 we were relegation fodder. We did not lose another game until the League Cup semi-final second leg (but won on aggregate).
By August, we had won the FA Cup and beaten Liverpool in the Charity Shield and were playing keep ball against them at Wembley. Toying with them. I had never seen anything like it. It was an astonishing transformation.
Two players had been added in that 8 month period ? Van den Hauwe and Bracewell. Andy Gray also arrived in late 83 or early 84. None of them big money signings. All the players suddenly came good at the same time.
Sam Hoare
50 Posted 25/11/2011 at 08:28:19
50 Posted 25/11/2011 at 08:28:19
Michael, I suspect you're probably right although I think you can notice a big shift between our play at the start of last season, where we were passing it around a lot and dominated possession in a lot of our matches (even against some of the big 4) and the more direct style we have adopted now. I don't think he is as tactically stuck as some people think, even though he does seems fixed on a 4-5-1 formation.
Generally speaking, I don't think we are likely to see a footballing renaissance any time soon from Moyes. However, unlike others, I don't believe that's necessarily a bad thing. We are in a very competitive league this year, with not much to seperate the bottom 13 teams. In such times, I believe you need a manager who puts practicality before aesthetic.
And say what you like about Moyes but most will tell you that he tends to get better results (on the whole) than his resources might suggest. It might not be pretty but usually it's effective. Perhaps if we got some investment and a bit more security we could afford to adopt a more appealing style, but right now I think we need to do whatever we can do to pick up as many points as possible.
Generally speaking, I don't think we are likely to see a footballing renaissance any time soon from Moyes. However, unlike others, I don't believe that's necessarily a bad thing. We are in a very competitive league this year, with not much to seperate the bottom 13 teams. In such times, I believe you need a manager who puts practicality before aesthetic.
And say what you like about Moyes but most will tell you that he tends to get better results (on the whole) than his resources might suggest. It might not be pretty but usually it's effective. Perhaps if we got some investment and a bit more security we could afford to adopt a more appealing style, but right now I think we need to do whatever we can do to pick up as many points as possible.
Chris Thornton
51 Posted 25/11/2011 at 09:13:27
51 Posted 25/11/2011 at 09:13:27
I broadly agree with Sam. I think the real point is that with Arteta, Pienaar and Yakubu all gone and Cahill possibly past his sell-by date, we're simply not as good as we were. The team is in transition, so it's bound to struggle a bit. Moyes knows this as well as we do.
Like everybody else, I wish he would be a bit more positive and maybe vary his tactics a bit, but it's wildly optimistic to expect young players like Barkley, Gueye and Vellios to come into a struggling team and turn things around and I don't think it would do their confidence much good either. But I think we'll see more of Barkley and Vellios as the season goes on.
Like everybody else, I wish he would be a bit more positive and maybe vary his tactics a bit, but it's wildly optimistic to expect young players like Barkley, Gueye and Vellios to come into a struggling team and turn things around and I don't think it would do their confidence much good either. But I think we'll see more of Barkley and Vellios as the season goes on.
Michael Brien
52 Posted 25/11/2011 at 14:20:24
52 Posted 25/11/2011 at 14:20:24
David #48 ? I think Sam in his article put "... 84-54 came from nowhere....". I actually put the 84-85 season didn't come from nowhere ? the foundations were laid in the previous season when we reached two Wembley Finals. From January 1984, the team started to play to its potential...."
So the "comeback" season of 1983-84 was the foundation for the glory that was 1984-85. Andy Gray was signed in late October / early November 1983; I think his debut was at Goodison v Nott'm Forest.
So the "comeback" season of 1983-84 was the foundation for the glory that was 1984-85. Andy Gray was signed in late October / early November 1983; I think his debut was at Goodison v Nott'm Forest.
Eugene Ruane
53 Posted 26/11/2011 at 09:58:30
53 Posted 26/11/2011 at 09:58:30
Stephen Kenny (44) - You say..
"Everton fans will never revolt against Moyes, not in a million years. Too many are extremely grateful to him for giving us a bit of dignity back"
Well he certainly DID give us a bit of dignity back, and I'm sure (nb: certainly at the time) everyone WAS extremely grateful.
However I believe the same man who gave us our dignity back, stripped us of it against Man City this season.
I don't give a fuck how much they spent on players, grounds, etc, Moyes performance before, during and after that game was (imo) a disgrace and I felt genuinely embarrassed to see us (in effect) throw the towel in and concede before the game had kicked off.
By the way, if he took us down, how many do you think would say "Well he got us relegated but I'm extremely grateful coz he gave us a bit of dignity back in his first few seasons"?
I DON'T hate Moyes, I've never called him personal names, think he's a probably a decent man, but now genuinely believe, at Everton, he's a busted flush and it would be better for everyone (us AND him) if he moved on.
"Everton fans will never revolt against Moyes, not in a million years. Too many are extremely grateful to him for giving us a bit of dignity back"
Well he certainly DID give us a bit of dignity back, and I'm sure (nb: certainly at the time) everyone WAS extremely grateful.
However I believe the same man who gave us our dignity back, stripped us of it against Man City this season.
I don't give a fuck how much they spent on players, grounds, etc, Moyes performance before, during and after that game was (imo) a disgrace and I felt genuinely embarrassed to see us (in effect) throw the towel in and concede before the game had kicked off.
By the way, if he took us down, how many do you think would say "Well he got us relegated but I'm extremely grateful coz he gave us a bit of dignity back in his first few seasons"?
I DON'T hate Moyes, I've never called him personal names, think he's a probably a decent man, but now genuinely believe, at Everton, he's a busted flush and it would be better for everyone (us AND him) if he moved on.
Stephen Kenny
54 Posted 26/11/2011 at 10:41:18
54 Posted 26/11/2011 at 10:41:18
Eugene,
I agree 100%. But the minute anyhting half decent happens inside Goodison the Gladwys are singing his name. I think anybody who goes regular would agree with that?
I think some of his comments would, in the past, have seen an Everton manager sacked on the spot. Clearly this isn't the case and it doesn't bother a majority. It bother me and I said as much at the time.
If we wen't down I'd blame Moyes because he's got a group of players that's far too good to go down. I think the majority would blame Kenwright for selling our best players if that did occur?
I agree 100%. But the minute anyhting half decent happens inside Goodison the Gladwys are singing his name. I think anybody who goes regular would agree with that?
I think some of his comments would, in the past, have seen an Everton manager sacked on the spot. Clearly this isn't the case and it doesn't bother a majority. It bother me and I said as much at the time.
If we wen't down I'd blame Moyes because he's got a group of players that's far too good to go down. I think the majority would blame Kenwright for selling our best players if that did occur?
Eugene Ruane
55 Posted 26/11/2011 at 11:41:35
55 Posted 26/11/2011 at 11:41:35
Stephen - that phenomenon of a manager being hailed as God one minute and three minutes later, being a total shit-bag makes no real sense and if analyzed, would appear to be insanity on a massive scale
Yet it is something most supporters (certainly me) have been guilty of.
I think we CAN be excused however.
There's no logic in supporting Everton (or any continually unsuccessful thing) so that alone excuses our apparently unstable mental state.
Agree completely re Moyes' comments, particularly this season.
Yet it is something most supporters (certainly me) have been guilty of.
I think we CAN be excused however.
There's no logic in supporting Everton (or any continually unsuccessful thing) so that alone excuses our apparently unstable mental state.
Agree completely re Moyes' comments, particularly this season.
Stephen Kenny
56 Posted 26/11/2011 at 13:16:36
56 Posted 26/11/2011 at 13:16:36
I think the fact we all get up at all kinds of daft hours either to watch or travel up and down the country, buy any arl tat that's blue and go on these website 10x a day, all to support a team that plays in a league we've got absolutely no chance of winning bar 7 separate acts of God means were all oddballs.
It's better than Ikea and Asda though!!
It's better than Ikea and Asda though!!
Roman Sidey
57 Posted 26/11/2011 at 13:09:30
57 Posted 26/11/2011 at 13:09:30
Now Osman's at it. If ever an agenda was made obvious by a media outlet, the story in the Echo is it!
Osman to help Drenthe?! Yep, we're fucked!
Osman to help Drenthe?! Yep, we're fucked!
Stephen Kenny
58 Posted 26/11/2011 at 13:20:30
58 Posted 26/11/2011 at 13:20:30
The same Drenthe who's played for Real Madrid???
Yeah.. You show him the ropes Leon!!!
Yeah.. You show him the ropes Leon!!!
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1 Posted 23/11/2011 at 07:19:27